“I was an intern at SpaceX years ago”(tumblr.com)
tumblr.com
“I was an intern at SpaceX years ago”
https://www.tumblr.com/numberonecatwinner/701567544684855296/elon-wyd
49 comments
In my experience its quite common for both to be true- the founder is extremely talented and the business cannot survive without them, but also they have personality problems or ego issues that are allowed to run uncheked precisely because they deliver so much value. I have listened to Elon interviews enough to be pretty sure of this. What I am not sure of is if this strategy of running twitter like a manufacturing org where workers are interchangeable and disposable will work out.
Yes, Elon clearly has some issues. I'm sure having an abusive father, being bullied and almost beaten to death at school also leaves some emotional scars. When criticized he fights back hard, probably instinctively (pedo guy etc).
Did you read the original post though or know anything about Musk? Why would a main engine designer at SpaceX badmouth Musk publicly if he wanted to keep his job as said main engine designer? Your link is not a counterexample.
He is now retired and says the same thing as before (see "The Elon Musk show" on BBC). If Elon is truly so incompetent why would he work for him for 15 years? I know a fair bit about Musk, at least of what's publicly available, what do you know? Social media "Emerald mine" hot takes?
So if an employee has something good to say about their current boss, it's because they're afraid to lose their jobs (fair). If they're retired and still say good things, it's Stockholm Syndrome (as a Stockholmer I take offense btw ;)). So the only people we can trust are the ex-employees (possibly fired?) who have bad things to say? To me, the retired highly acclaimed engineer who worked closely with him for many years would be the absolute best signal here. Note that in the interview he's not unequivacly positive about Musk, he describes the experience as "stressful" and jokingly "I wouldn't want to have him as a dad", due to his high expectations and demands. But pushing your employees to the limits in order to do great things is not incompetence.
It's hard to tell, and it's certainly possible that this person genuinely enjoyed working with Musk and believes him to be a visionary. But if I spent half of my working years pursuing the erratic whims of an egomaniac, I'd have a very strong incentive in justifying this to myself with the belief that he is indeed an unparalleled genius, and not just a delusional rich man.
At that point, who he is is who I am. His public image and status reflects on mine.
At that point, who he is is who I am. His public image and status reflects on mine.
Mueller is not a reliable source either. He is widely known as a huge kiss-ass within SpaceX.
Multiple sources have confirmed that Elon made no actual contribution to the development of the engines or craft beyond the input that aerospace executives normally contribute. He's just better at taking credit for the work done by others.
Multiple sources have confirmed that Elon made no actual contribution to the development of the engines or craft beyond the input that aerospace executives normally contribute. He's just better at taking credit for the work done by others.
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Source?
After seeing what Musk did at Twitter do you really think people at SpaceX are going to publicly identify themselves on this?
I knew it was bullshit when I saw the URL but regrettably I read the poor piece of fiction anyway. I don't know what compels people to write this garbage, or how dull someone who believes it is.
It's called being born with money. Talent and vision is plent, wasting money on random shit and being cruel to people until you have a profitable idea is luck with a side of evil.
His abusive father (who killed 3 people during a burglary btw) whom he cut ties with had some money yes. But he, his mother and brother lived on their own in South Africa while his mother worked multiple jobs to get by. Later they left for Canada without his father with a few thousand dollars at most. In Canada they had to live in a rent controlled apartment. Does this sound like the life of a rich kid to you?
Even if you discount this fact, if every child with a millionaire father would go on to revolutionize two industries at once I think we'd be much further along as a species...
The anti-Elon crowd has truly created an alternate reality where they can dismiss anything he has ever accomplished. I get that his personality does not jive with a lot of people, but the solution to resolve this cognitive dissonance is not to find any and all reasons to dismiss what he's done but to realize he's a complicated person, great at a lot of things, intelligent, driven, but also childish, emotional and over-confident at times.
Even if you discount this fact, if every child with a millionaire father would go on to revolutionize two industries at once I think we'd be much further along as a species...
The anti-Elon crowd has truly created an alternate reality where they can dismiss anything he has ever accomplished. I get that his personality does not jive with a lot of people, but the solution to resolve this cognitive dissonance is not to find any and all reasons to dismiss what he's done but to realize he's a complicated person, great at a lot of things, intelligent, driven, but also childish, emotional and over-confident at times.
> In Canada they had to live in a rent controlled apartment.
Is that significant? All rentals were subject to rent control at the time. Only since 2018 has new construction been exempt, but older builds remain under rent control.
Is that significant? All rentals were subject to rent control at the time. Only since 2018 has new construction been exempt, but older builds remain under rent control.
Doesn't seem very trustworthy either. Meuller was probably one of those "Elon managers" and I don't see any merit of doing public denial on his "genius engineer" narrative. And overruling low level eng decisions which don't make business sense is a typical CEO job. Every single competent tech CEO does that everyday, Elon is not a special case.
Although I have a decent level of respects for a businessman Elon Musk in that he made several successful long term bets based on his physics/economics backgrounds, but this doesn't necessarily mean that I have to agree with his own narcissistic narrative. We also need to draw a clear line between the reality and his narrative as well as recently developed anti-Elon rhetoric.
Although I have a decent level of respects for a businessman Elon Musk in that he made several successful long term bets based on his physics/economics backgrounds, but this doesn't necessarily mean that I have to agree with his own narcissistic narrative. We also need to draw a clear line between the reality and his narrative as well as recently developed anti-Elon rhetoric.
Tbh, I think the biggest issue with kissasses and yes men most powerful narcissistic people tend to surround themselves with is that they'll isolate them in a bubble of their bad decisions.
This leads to companies 'backing the wrong horse' for too long and investing way too much resources and time into projects that are doomed to fail.
Imo this is what we've seen traditional US aerospace companies do for decades - the SLS is the most egregious example of this. In contrast Musk has walked back many times on ideas that turned out not to make sense - propulsive Dragon landing, numerous Starship redesigns etc.
In my opinion that ability has proven to be one of his greatest asset.
This leads to companies 'backing the wrong horse' for too long and investing way too much resources and time into projects that are doomed to fail.
Imo this is what we've seen traditional US aerospace companies do for decades - the SLS is the most egregious example of this. In contrast Musk has walked back many times on ideas that turned out not to make sense - propulsive Dragon landing, numerous Starship redesigns etc.
In my opinion that ability has proven to be one of his greatest asset.
> Every single competent tech CEO does that everyday, Elon is not a special case
Not a special case, but different in the matter of degree. Every person (and CEO) is unique, but I think Elon stands out on a few dimensions, 1. raw tenacity, this guy just does not quit, 2. first principles thinking, 3. great at finding the right talent. I don't think any other CEO could make SpaceX work. Definitely not as a part time CEO/founder while also building Tesla. Bezos tried half heartedly and had very limited success. Zuck has yet to prove he can succeed outside of Facebook, Gates perhaps if he had the interest. Jobs seems to share many qualities but not the technical/engineering chops (although I think he knew more than people give him credit for). That said he's not a superman hero, but we can still marvel at he's done.
> We also need to draw a clear line between the reality and his narrative as well as recently developed anti-Elon rhetoric.
Agreed
Not a special case, but different in the matter of degree. Every person (and CEO) is unique, but I think Elon stands out on a few dimensions, 1. raw tenacity, this guy just does not quit, 2. first principles thinking, 3. great at finding the right talent. I don't think any other CEO could make SpaceX work. Definitely not as a part time CEO/founder while also building Tesla. Bezos tried half heartedly and had very limited success. Zuck has yet to prove he can succeed outside of Facebook, Gates perhaps if he had the interest. Jobs seems to share many qualities but not the technical/engineering chops (although I think he knew more than people give him credit for). That said he's not a superman hero, but we can still marvel at he's done.
> We also need to draw a clear line between the reality and his narrative as well as recently developed anti-Elon rhetoric.
Agreed
How many people working at SpaceX have to say good things about Elon to make you believe?
I would take something said by an employee on a public platform with a grain of salt. Specially after how Elon recently treated employees not agreeing with him.
I find it funny how the geek/nerd fandom first made out Elon to be Techjesus, and now that he's isn't cool anymore, are now having kittens and trying to create reasons to negate his achievements.
"Oh it was from Daddy's emerald mine money"
"He just buys companies, his success is bought not made"
"He just hires competent people like Shotwell, Mueller etc, it not him, it's his employees"
"His success is not that big a deal"
and on and on
Like seriously, it's embarrassing. Really? A random nameless intern's tumbler post is now what we are using to get our rage boner on? And for what? something we will not even care about six months from now?
how about we realize it's not a net-sum game and a person can both be a genius AND an asshole at the same time? Like It is possible for MULTIPLE things to be true, we are supposed to be better than this.
"Oh it was from Daddy's emerald mine money"
"He just buys companies, his success is bought not made"
"He just hires competent people like Shotwell, Mueller etc, it not him, it's his employees"
"His success is not that big a deal"
and on and on
Like seriously, it's embarrassing. Really? A random nameless intern's tumbler post is now what we are using to get our rage boner on? And for what? something we will not even care about six months from now?
how about we realize it's not a net-sum game and a person can both be a genius AND an asshole at the same time? Like It is possible for MULTIPLE things to be true, we are supposed to be better than this.
I don't think it's the same people. What's happened is that in the last few years is he's become famous in the mainstream, and the new people (including new grad software engineers) have only ever heard the emerald mine hot takes on social media and take that as gospel. I doubt anyone (geeks especially) who is actually familiar with his history would say any of those things. Many people who previously liked him dislike him now due to his politics and public persona, but that's a different story. You can dislike and respect someone at the same time.
It's also possible to be a genius and an idiot at the same time, if in different domains. Which is what it looks like here.
That's how it goes. As someone who never liked Elon Musk and was sceptical of the guy from day one I could tell you about the discussions I had with otherwise reasonable people (reminiscent about the discussions about cryptocurrencies).
Maybe it is because I directed actors and have an eye for human beviour and manierisms, but I instantly knew that Elon Musk is not the kind of guy I'd like to have around, have to trust or even admire.
Not that he is not without achievements as the richest man on the world. But it cannot buy him happyness, resolve or confidence, all of which this man has a lack of.
Rich men with holes money cannot fill are dangerous.
Maybe it is because I directed actors and have an eye for human beviour and manierisms, but I instantly knew that Elon Musk is not the kind of guy I'd like to have around, have to trust or even admire.
Not that he is not without achievements as the richest man on the world. But it cannot buy him happyness, resolve or confidence, all of which this man has a lack of.
Rich men with holes money cannot fill are dangerous.
So what this is saying is Elon was basically trapped in his own version of The Truman Show and now we are seeing his true capabilities after escaping the set.
It's kinda worse than that. If it's accurate, one of the few ways employees can perform meaningful work that revolutionizes an industry is by manipulating upper management into supporting that work.
This is not really abnormal for many large companies or government. The c-level peeps are doing ‘stuff’ and the job of layers of management below them is to manage/manipulate them into doing ‘other stuff’. Nothing so weird about it. It goes wrong when the top doesn’t have vision, but Elon does have that.
One of my years ago comment was it's not that Musk is a great CEO/Engineer it's that generally managers of automotive and aerospace companies are just that terrible.
Not sure how much I'm gonna trust a guy who was an intern for a short period of time. If someone who worked with him directly for years comes out and says the same I'd pay attention but for now most of them are saying the opposite.
Cult of personality is a thing and very clearly part of Elon's whole existence. Is it surprising that many are sycophantic enough to want to be at his companies or in his circle to keep their true opinions to themselves?
But at the same time, there have been many, many instances where people have come out and said these things. There have been lawsuits around this.
But at the same time, there have been many, many instances where people have come out and said these things. There have been lawsuits around this.
Musk is no doubt on the extreme end of CEO spectrum but I don't think this is as unusual as this person makes it seem.
e.g. Bezos liking his info presented in essay form. And I bet the "S team" around him is quite skilled at Bezos management too.
Sometimes I think at this scale of the biz spectrum you're by default dealing with slightly quirky/insane people...
e.g. Bezos liking his info presented in essay form. And I bet the "S team" around him is quite skilled at Bezos management too.
Sometimes I think at this scale of the biz spectrum you're by default dealing with slightly quirky/insane people...
> Back when I was at SpaceX, Elon was basically a child king. He was an important figurehead who provided the company with the money, power, and PR, but he didn’t have the knowledge or (frankly) maturity to handle day-to-day decision making and everyone knew that. He was surrounded by people whose job was, essentially, to manipulate him into making good decisions.
This is the conclusion anyone who works or has worked at a Musk corp eventually realizes, those are all necessary components of a business and should be lauded, but its the cult of Elon followers who are insufferable and truly believe a single person can be able to be involved on the day aspects of just SpaceX and hold the title of chief Engineer and ave it mean anything more than a figurehead title.
This experience is also worth noting before anyone ventures off to Mars under the guise of following 'the will of Elon' and is willing to endure what life under his management would actually look like rather than misguided fantasy that it will be a sort of egalitarian Space-camp playground. He is a remarkably talented Marketer/PR and Fiance guy but it's beyond delusional to think he has anything but a cursory (albeit respectable understanding for a non-specialist) beyond that due to the sheer amount of complexity and specialization in a single department (AI development for FSD) at one of these corps has, let alone all of them.
This is isn't a damning and sensationalist take if being objective with the collection of evidence and anecdotes who saw the sausage get made, it's just what seems to be a consistent outlook and the cost of admission to work on such amazing projects with amazing people and is best summarized as follows:
Managing Elon was a huge part of the company culture. Even I, as a lowly intern, would hear people talking about it openly in meetings. People knew how to present ideas in a way that would resonate with him, they knew how to creatively reinterpret (or ignore) his many insane demands, and they even knew how to “stage manage” parts of the physical office space so that it would appeal to Elon.
I sincerely hope Gwynne Shotwell, chief operating officer of SpaceX, starts to get way more recognition for the work! I just hope the next round of funding for SpaceX isn't negatively impacted because of the chaos that Twitter has become under Elon as it was valued at ~$150 Billion this month [0].
0: https://archive.ph/cqGSH
This is the conclusion anyone who works or has worked at a Musk corp eventually realizes, those are all necessary components of a business and should be lauded, but its the cult of Elon followers who are insufferable and truly believe a single person can be able to be involved on the day aspects of just SpaceX and hold the title of chief Engineer and ave it mean anything more than a figurehead title.
This experience is also worth noting before anyone ventures off to Mars under the guise of following 'the will of Elon' and is willing to endure what life under his management would actually look like rather than misguided fantasy that it will be a sort of egalitarian Space-camp playground. He is a remarkably talented Marketer/PR and Fiance guy but it's beyond delusional to think he has anything but a cursory (albeit respectable understanding for a non-specialist) beyond that due to the sheer amount of complexity and specialization in a single department (AI development for FSD) at one of these corps has, let alone all of them.
This is isn't a damning and sensationalist take if being objective with the collection of evidence and anecdotes who saw the sausage get made, it's just what seems to be a consistent outlook and the cost of admission to work on such amazing projects with amazing people and is best summarized as follows:
Managing Elon was a huge part of the company culture. Even I, as a lowly intern, would hear people talking about it openly in meetings. People knew how to present ideas in a way that would resonate with him, they knew how to creatively reinterpret (or ignore) his many insane demands, and they even knew how to “stage manage” parts of the physical office space so that it would appeal to Elon.
I sincerely hope Gwynne Shotwell, chief operating officer of SpaceX, starts to get way more recognition for the work! I just hope the next round of funding for SpaceX isn't negatively impacted because of the chaos that Twitter has become under Elon as it was valued at ~$150 Billion this month [0].
0: https://archive.ph/cqGSH
Absolutely, Elon has the balls to put money on the table and push for audacious goals like the sort of fully reusable, high cadence, rocket technology that was all but abandoned as all but a science fiction dream as the aerospace industry slowly transformed through the 70s slowly into the 80s. Yes there were hold outs trying to make it happen still, keeping the dreams alive, but it clearly wasn’t going anywhere. We had a couple of good attempts in the 90s with the desire to build a shuttle replacement putting some money on the table but it was never going to be feasible for a federally funded program to build a fully reusable rocket, being fully reusable might lead to people loosing jobs and pork barrel politics will “fix” that very quickly!
It took crazy Elon and his wild dreams of Mars colony building to put enough private capital behind building a really reusable rocket. But it’s absolutely Gwynn’s Shotwell who has made his vision possible she’s a damn global treasure and if we ever have a space colony because of Elon’s vision, she deserves a statue on the surface of another planet for making that vision happen!
It took crazy Elon and his wild dreams of Mars colony building to put enough private capital behind building a really reusable rocket. But it’s absolutely Gwynn’s Shotwell who has made his vision possible she’s a damn global treasure and if we ever have a space colony because of Elon’s vision, she deserves a statue on the surface of another planet for making that vision happen!
The oddest thing about the whole affair is that, even if Musk is a genius tech executive that can build exciting new products, that has almost nothing to do with the cost efficiency process that Twitter needed.
You don't even need to be in tech to comb through the books and identify where things need to be cut. This is your standard financial CEO's bread and butter.
Imagine putting Steve Jobs at Twitter. You don't need a tech CEO to straighten Twitter out.
You don't even need to be in tech to comb through the books and identify where things need to be cut. This is your standard financial CEO's bread and butter.
Imagine putting Steve Jobs at Twitter. You don't need a tech CEO to straighten Twitter out.
>Imagine putting Steve Jobs at Twitter. You don't need a tech CEO to straighten Twitter out.
I'm not sure how to parse the juxtaposition of these two sentences - are you implying that Steve Jobs was not a tech CEO?
I'm not sure how to parse the juxtaposition of these two sentences - are you implying that Steve Jobs was not a tech CEO?
He says that steve was a tech ceo, but that you don't need a tech ceo for the twitter situation, but a financial ceo instead.
This is basically how dictators and kings work. They're psychotic egomaniacs and you have to manage them or they destroy the entire kingdom when someone gets their coffee order wrong
As much as I enjoy a good Elen bashing, it's hard to place too much stock in the corporate analysis of an intern. Individual observations are great. But the big picture? I don't think an intern has enough experience to see it.
The cult of personality is based around his ability to turn “nothing” into gold, lets break this down.
Tesla - Took an already well engineered Lotus chassis and electrified it. There were plenty of companies around that did the same thing, he just had the PR abilities to elevate it to the next step. As for the next step, look up the Henry Fisker/Tesla lawsuits regarding the design of the Model S.
Space-X - Purchased some of the admittedly best engineered rocket engines to come out of the Soviet Union, the RD-180. It was a surplus closed cycle combustion (efficient) left over from the Energia/Buran program. They then reverse engineered it, and built a small single bell model. This fact seems to have been scrubbed from the internet. This was all to win the Ansari X Prize. Then he tries to revise his own history by selling a bullshit ICBM story.
If memory serves this was on a PBS Nova doc around the xprize. There is a specific scene where Elon walks by his newly purchased russian engines. Now he has the gall to use US protectionist laws to block ULA from doing the same thing?!!!!
I was an admitted member of the Elon cult until I saw him for who he is. Spoiled entitled snake oil salesman manchild.
The contributions of 10000s of employees in Spacex and Tesla are what make those companies great.
Tesla - Took an already well engineered Lotus chassis and electrified it. There were plenty of companies around that did the same thing, he just had the PR abilities to elevate it to the next step. As for the next step, look up the Henry Fisker/Tesla lawsuits regarding the design of the Model S.
Space-X - Purchased some of the admittedly best engineered rocket engines to come out of the Soviet Union, the RD-180. It was a surplus closed cycle combustion (efficient) left over from the Energia/Buran program. They then reverse engineered it, and built a small single bell model. This fact seems to have been scrubbed from the internet. This was all to win the Ansari X Prize. Then he tries to revise his own history by selling a bullshit ICBM story.
If memory serves this was on a PBS Nova doc around the xprize. There is a specific scene where Elon walks by his newly purchased russian engines. Now he has the gall to use US protectionist laws to block ULA from doing the same thing?!!!!
I was an admitted member of the Elon cult until I saw him for who he is. Spoiled entitled snake oil salesman manchild.
The contributions of 10000s of employees in Spacex and Tesla are what make those companies great.
Gotta apply Hitchen's razor with this one: what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.
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This was a wonky post for being so high on hackernews
Well, if this anonymous alleged intern said the CEO of the company was dumb, that's good enough for me!
Musk has made significant accomplishments in disparate fields - payments, electric cars, rockets. The idea that Musk is a simpleton stumbling his way into success in these disparate fields and to becoming the world's richest man is absurd. The evidence for this is an anonymous person's Tumblr (or tweet - also saw this posted there)?
Musk has made significant accomplishments in disparate fields - payments, electric cars, rockets. The idea that Musk is a simpleton stumbling his way into success in these disparate fields and to becoming the world's richest man is absurd. The evidence for this is an anonymous person's Tumblr (or tweet - also saw this posted there)?
> Musk has made significant accomplishments in disparate fields - payments, electric cars, rockets
Correction -- his companies have made significant accomplishments in those fields. The degree to which he was responsible for those accomplishments is unclear.
Correction -- his companies have made significant accomplishments in those fields. The degree to which he was responsible for those accomplishments is unclear.
It is an accomplishment to be a founder of pioneering companies in disparate fields. No correction is warranted.
Elon founded only SpaceX but had nothing to do with the technical foundations.
It also really doesn’t matter if he knows anything technically; what the intern described is not very strange/different than I have seen in tons of companies; they are nowhere near as successful as Tesla/spacex or PayPal of course.
Conclusion: Elon has been instrumental in engineering decisions, often overruling the opinion of the rest of the team and later proven right (though not always). Later in the interview when asked who his role model is he answers "Elon", for having completely changed the way he thinks about engineering and business. Building multiple billion dollar businesses is not luck, and is not simply the result of a "child king". For more details on his engineering and management of SpaceX I recommend the book "Liftoff". The anti-Elon rhetoric has gone too far and is completely detached from reality.