Mumbai embraces its booming flamingo population(hakaimagazine.com)
hakaimagazine.com
Mumbai embraces its booming flamingo population
https://hakaimagazine.com/features/mumbai-embraces-its-booming-flamingo-population/
50 comments
I love India.
But I don’t understand why India is so dirty? I ask my offshore colleagues and some say it’s the population, some say it’s the culture and some blame it on politicians.
But I don’t understand why India is so dirty? I ask my offshore colleagues and some say it’s the population, some say it’s the culture and some blame it on politicians.
According to at least one anthropologist, the religious leaders were so obsessed with the idea of ritual purity and pollution that physical cleanliness took a beating. It is not easy to understand even for an Indian. Caste system foundations were also based on, or at least justified by, the idea of ritual purity and pollution. 'The remembered village' by MN Srinivas hints a bit about these things.
While growing up in village, there were so many sayings now I understand. Like my soul is pure what if my hands are dirty or I havnt took bath for two days. Cleaniness of place is even less cared for and personal cleanliness.
I get it that other dont understand why its so hard to keep your neighborhood clean. Its not hard, its just most dont care!. And before thr age of plastics, nature did all the cleaning during monsoon and summer.
PS: It is not the politician. It is the people and culture.
While growing up in village, there were so many sayings now I understand. Like my soul is pure what if my hands are dirty or I havnt took bath for two days. Cleaniness of place is even less cared for and personal cleanliness.
I get it that other dont understand why its so hard to keep your neighborhood clean. Its not hard, its just most dont care!. And before thr age of plastics, nature did all the cleaning during monsoon and summer.
PS: It is not the politician. It is the people and culture.
This depends on religion - Sikh temples are cleaned every day, are usually immaculate white, and incorporate foot washing into every entrance. It's pretty marvelous to see how efficiently a group of ~100 volunteers clean the Golden Temple in Amritsar every day - whoever happens to be around at 3 pm might grab a broom, bucket, or stand in the holy pool to fill buckets of water. The surrounding city and state (Punjab) is much cleaner than you would find elsewhere in India.
Japanese culture also has a number of "ritual purity" elements, such as taking shoes from outside off in the genkan (vestibule) before stepping into the main part of a house, and ritual cleansing with water when visiting a shrine. I understand that Japan is far more economically advantaged than India, but even so, the difference in how clean things are between New York City (for example) and any major city in Japan is quite stark.
[I'm from the US but lived in Japan for a year. Haven't been to India but I know a lot of people from there.]
> religious leaders were so obsessed with the idea of ritual purity and pollution that physical cleanliness took a beating. It is not easy to understand even for an Indian.
Yeah, no. You see the same happening in poorer parts of South East Asia and Africa.
Yeah, no. You see the same happening in poorer parts of South East Asia and Africa.
I've travelled extensively all over Asia, and spent a lot of time in India (especially Mumbai and Delhi) - IMHO India is by far the worst for trash and filth. The only parts even remotely close I've seen were in Nepal and Indonesia.
Indeed, I was particularly struck by how clean and tidy poor parts of SEA are!
Indeed, I was particularly struck by how clean and tidy poor parts of SEA are!
In one of the Attenborough documentaries, they showed Hyenas visiting the capital of Ethiopia that locals feed them at night. I was like looks like a much poorer city than Bangalore, but darn their streets are so clean (even at night).
I have been to many villages in India, where even local streets are narrow, hard to navigate for cars. And people love to occupy a few more feet from the street for personal use (you can see this behavior in cities too, by extending buildings onto streets). Sometimes, these issues lead to fights among neighbors, including deaths. A local daily reported that a family was sending a drain pipe from their washing machine onto the street; and the next door door had been complaining for months, leading to a fight. The end result: the dishwasher's owner's wife was killed by a huge stone hurled at her by the neighbor.
This makes sense. Steve Jobs famously observes this stark contrast during his india trip too.
Though one can ask why this can’t be true of any ‘world-denying’ religion too? Judaism? Christianity? Why bother with physical cleanliness in this life when you’re gunning for salvation in the next one?
Though one can ask why this can’t be true of any ‘world-denying’ religion too? Judaism? Christianity? Why bother with physical cleanliness in this life when you’re gunning for salvation in the next one?
Hinduism's concept of salvation is very different from the Judeo-Christian understanding of salvation
What a xenophobic statement. I’m in the UK and I see exactly the same thing here with trash abandoned all over the streets. That’s before you look at the filthy state of our rivers with businesses brazenly dumping waste.
What’s the excuse here then?
What’s the excuse here then?
> What a xenophobic statement
I think the person you are replying for is saying that they grew up in India
I think the person you are replying for is saying that they grew up in India
The answer is simple - there is no functioning city level garbage collection/disposal system. Outside of a handful of cities, there is no system to regularly collect garbage and dispose it properly. This is due to the sheer size and population of the cities combined with government and citizen apathy, lack of manpower, lack of funds, lack of knowledge etc.
Lets see how it works generally in cities - millions of homes do their daily cleaning, there is no where to dump this garbage, so it is thrown street side or somewhere in a nearby small dump (https://scroll.in/article/802978/as-garbage-continues-to-pil...), then it is not collected for weeks, finally when it is collected it is thrown in a bigger dump (https://www.newsweek.com/trash-mountain-india-could-taller-t...). Only Indore that I know of (https://www.outlookindia.com/national/how-indore-became-the-...) is doing proper garbage collection and disposal.
p.s. my knowledge may not be fully up-to-date.
Lets see how it works generally in cities - millions of homes do their daily cleaning, there is no where to dump this garbage, so it is thrown street side or somewhere in a nearby small dump (https://scroll.in/article/802978/as-garbage-continues-to-pil...), then it is not collected for weeks, finally when it is collected it is thrown in a bigger dump (https://www.newsweek.com/trash-mountain-india-could-taller-t...). Only Indore that I know of (https://www.outlookindia.com/national/how-indore-became-the-...) is doing proper garbage collection and disposal.
p.s. my knowledge may not be fully up-to-date.
> sheer size and population of the cities combined with government and citizen apathy, lack of manpower*,
This is something I see often. How come with a large population there is a shortage of manpower?
You see the same sort of thing in the UK, lots of people, high unemployment (more than twice what we have here in Norway), and yet there is a large amount of obvious work that needs doing like insulating houses and fixing holes in the road.
This is something I see often. How come with a large population there is a shortage of manpower?
You see the same sort of thing in the UK, lots of people, high unemployment (more than twice what we have here in Norway), and yet there is a large amount of obvious work that needs doing like insulating houses and fixing holes in the road.
As an Indian, this meme makes me sad: https://i.redd.it/322obfbjpsaa1.png
India had one of the first civilizations with a functioning sanitary system, yet 4,000 years later, it is seemingly not yet on par with the Indus Valley civilization. Now, there are many factors for this of course, including population, corruption, apathy, etc, but still, the meme rings true.
India had one of the first civilizations with a functioning sanitary system, yet 4,000 years later, it is seemingly not yet on par with the Indus Valley civilization. Now, there are many factors for this of course, including population, corruption, apathy, etc, but still, the meme rings true.
Several studies have correlated education and income levels with environmental awareness. In practice, it is also due to corruption and the consequential failure of public services. The city I was born in (Dhanbad) suffers from rampant corruption, even by Indian standards - large swathes of the urban area have no other way to dispose of garbage other than paying private companies around $1-$2 per trash bag, which is then dumped in rivers and makeshift landfills.
Dhanbad allocated around $34 million dollars to its public waste management company a couple years ago, yet even today it still hasn't managed to get standardized trash bins and collection routes for most households. Endemic corruption and tax avoidance cripples virtually every public service in India, and any systems of regulation (law enforcement, bureaucracy, politicians, journalism, etc) are firmly captured by the business interests that perpetuate it.
Dhanbad allocated around $34 million dollars to its public waste management company a couple years ago, yet even today it still hasn't managed to get standardized trash bins and collection routes for most households. Endemic corruption and tax avoidance cripples virtually every public service in India, and any systems of regulation (law enforcement, bureaucracy, politicians, journalism, etc) are firmly captured by the business interests that perpetuate it.
In my opinion, its a mixture of both. They don't have trash pickups in most places. So pretty much your only option to get rid of household trash is to burn it or dump it somewhere. And because there's no trashcans anywhere in public, people just toss trash wherever they like. Think about what your neighborhood would look like if there was no waste management services provided.
It leans heavy toward being cultural: Japan got rid of most public trashcans after an extremist group attacked civilians with sarin gas, some decades ago. The streets remained as trash-free as usual. On the other hand after work, at night, you may see a manager passed out with a pool of puke in a subway car… on the other hand it gets cleaned up pronto at the terminus and the car will be clean and his wallet won't go mysteriously missing.
So you’re saying we need terrorism to keep the streets clean? /s
Birmingham New Street station did this and everything just got dirtier.
British attitudes regarding litter is one of the things that people from other parts of Europe notice when they visit. It's definitely a cultural difference.
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A typical Indian family cleans their home twice a day. The dirtiness has to do with public places. In villages, all trash end up being in creeks--eventually ending up in oceans. In mega cities, sewage systems don't work, and they are not maintained properly. Small business people, even trash pickers who charge to pick up trash, dump their trash elsewhere. This list is endless.
There are laws against dumping trash and sewage into creeks which do not get enforced.
City corporations need money to enforce the laws and clean stuff up but housing taxes continue to remain disproportionately low and people don’t pay that either.
City corporations need money to enforce the laws and clean stuff up but housing taxes continue to remain disproportionately low and people don’t pay that either.
You are asking the wrong people. The offshore people (i.e. people living in India) will just justify what they see as "part of culture". They are part of the problem, not part of the solution.
Talk to some expat Indians and you may get an answer.
As an expat, my reason is simple. Apathy!
Talk to some expat Indians and you may get an answer.
As an expat, my reason is simple. Apathy!
I'm an expat Indian, been an American citizen for ~25 years, and have worked/traveled all over India. Agree on the apathy, but I think it's a bit more nuanced than the notion of apathy one might have around here.
In America, you are very likely to be admonished by a stranger for littering in a public place. Trash cans are everywhere, and the laws/regulations are enforced, so the risk-reward of littering/pollution is overwhelmingly in favor of proper disposal. Most of the population doesn't have to work 14-16 hour days, 6-7 days a week, so there's a lot of volunteered time to go around for maintaining public areas. There is public funding and enforced regulations to handle waste management, and industry employees have union representation.
India is diametrically opposite to this - it would be risky to admonish someone for littering, especially if they look wealthy, because rich Indians are usually above the law and consider themselves so. Everyone bribes the police, so anyone can pollute the environment for a price. In everyday life, the tragedy of the commons is certainly prevalent - there's already a pile of trash, so one more wrapper makes no difference. But there is also apathy in the sense that you're not going to admonish the person dumping a rickshaw full of trash into the river, because that's the only realistic way for him to feed his family, and it's probably the only economical option over dumping it somewhere yourself. And there isn't much evidence that paying more in taxes is going to do anything for the problem, and a lot of evidence that it will just line your local politician's pockets. The people who actually do the work are usually the poorest in society, and they don't know the dangers of lighting carcinogenic materials on fire.
To summarize with an anecdote - I saw my uncle throw an empty chip bag on a beautiful beach in Goa, so I picked it up and asked him why he couldn't just hold on to it for a while. He shouted back, "it's someone else's job to pick that up!"
In America, you are very likely to be admonished by a stranger for littering in a public place. Trash cans are everywhere, and the laws/regulations are enforced, so the risk-reward of littering/pollution is overwhelmingly in favor of proper disposal. Most of the population doesn't have to work 14-16 hour days, 6-7 days a week, so there's a lot of volunteered time to go around for maintaining public areas. There is public funding and enforced regulations to handle waste management, and industry employees have union representation.
India is diametrically opposite to this - it would be risky to admonish someone for littering, especially if they look wealthy, because rich Indians are usually above the law and consider themselves so. Everyone bribes the police, so anyone can pollute the environment for a price. In everyday life, the tragedy of the commons is certainly prevalent - there's already a pile of trash, so one more wrapper makes no difference. But there is also apathy in the sense that you're not going to admonish the person dumping a rickshaw full of trash into the river, because that's the only realistic way for him to feed his family, and it's probably the only economical option over dumping it somewhere yourself. And there isn't much evidence that paying more in taxes is going to do anything for the problem, and a lot of evidence that it will just line your local politician's pockets. The people who actually do the work are usually the poorest in society, and they don't know the dangers of lighting carcinogenic materials on fire.
To summarize with an anecdote - I saw my uncle throw an empty chip bag on a beautiful beach in Goa, so I picked it up and asked him why he couldn't just hold on to it for a while. He shouted back, "it's someone else's job to pick that up!"
My cousin in Karachi when I gave him a hard time about littering: “What are you stressing out about? This won’t be New York anytime soon”
Where I live every house has a garbage can in front, trucks pick it up once a week, and every public space has multiple garbage cans that get emptied on a regular schedule. I didn't set the system up, and other than paying a bill every few months I'm not involved in running the system. Nobody is. It's provided for us and we take advantage of it. I visited Mumbai and Pune last year, and I saw the trash problem first hand, but I have a hard time pinning the problem on apathy versus simply not having a functioning sanitation system. In other words, if you take the most well-meaning person, leave them holding a piece of trash, then deprive them of anywhere to dispose of it, where do you think it's going to go?
> if you take the most well-meaning person, leave them holding a piece of trash, then deprive them of anywhere to dispose of it, where do you think it's going to go?
Counterpoint: In Japan, I often had to haul my garbage quite a bit before I found a trash can to dispose of it. No litter though. (To be fair, there are other factors; most people don't eat on the go, and there are usually garbage cans near convenience stores and vending machines).
Counterpoint: In Japan, I often had to haul my garbage quite a bit before I found a trash can to dispose of it. No litter though. (To be fair, there are other factors; most people don't eat on the go, and there are usually garbage cans near convenience stores and vending machines).
> [I]f you take the most well-meaning person, leave them holding a piece of trash, then deprive them of anywhere to dispose of it, where do you think it's going to go?
I'm definitely not the most well-meaning person, but that piece of trash is going to go into my pocket (or stay in my hands) until I see a sufficiently-empty trash can or dumpster to place it in. It'll stay with me until I get home if it has to.
I _do not_ get folks that toss trash around. It's just fuckin nuts.
I'm definitely not the most well-meaning person, but that piece of trash is going to go into my pocket (or stay in my hands) until I see a sufficiently-empty trash can or dumpster to place it in. It'll stay with me until I get home if it has to.
I _do not_ get folks that toss trash around. It's just fuckin nuts.
People are telling you, even when you put it in a trash can, that trash can ends up getting emptied into a river or public space.
> ...that trash can ends up getting emptied into a river or public space.
13of40 is implying that that trash will not end up in a trash can, but will end up on the ground, because they believe that even the most well-meaning person will refuse to carry refuse with them until they locate a trash can. (I -and others- have direct evidence that supports disagreement with their bleak outlook.)
Aside from the occasional (American) football or baseball hooligan tipping over a can in "celebration", trash cans in my area get emptied into the trash-disposal truck that stops by on a regular schedule. It's legitimately regrettable that you live in a place where your trash cans get emptied into rivers or other common areas.
If what you're telling me is a true and accurate picture of the state of waste management in your area, then that's a crying shame. I sincerely hope that wherever you are, you and your compatriots a successfully able to convince enough people that the commons is worth protecting and that proper disposal of trash and other refuse is worth doing to change this sad state of affairs where you live.
13of40 is implying that that trash will not end up in a trash can, but will end up on the ground, because they believe that even the most well-meaning person will refuse to carry refuse with them until they locate a trash can. (I -and others- have direct evidence that supports disagreement with their bleak outlook.)
Aside from the occasional (American) football or baseball hooligan tipping over a can in "celebration", trash cans in my area get emptied into the trash-disposal truck that stops by on a regular schedule. It's legitimately regrettable that you live in a place where your trash cans get emptied into rivers or other common areas.
If what you're telling me is a true and accurate picture of the state of waste management in your area, then that's a crying shame. I sincerely hope that wherever you are, you and your compatriots a successfully able to convince enough people that the commons is worth protecting and that proper disposal of trash and other refuse is worth doing to change this sad state of affairs where you live.
You carry it like a normal person.
> As an expat, my reason is simple. Apathy!
I think it is not mere apathy but learned apathy. There is no way for the people to know who to hold accountable. The political structure is a mess. It's not even googleable.
In addition, most people don't know that they need to constantly harass their representative to get things done.
Lastly, after many decades of political decay, most rich people only clean up their high rise societies. No one fights for public streets.
That's why there are few traffic lights, no lanes on streets, no crosswalks, ruthless traffic etc. People need up-to-date websites with contact details of elected representatives so that the representatives can be spammed to death about their inaction.
I think it is not mere apathy but learned apathy. There is no way for the people to know who to hold accountable. The political structure is a mess. It's not even googleable.
In addition, most people don't know that they need to constantly harass their representative to get things done.
Lastly, after many decades of political decay, most rich people only clean up their high rise societies. No one fights for public streets.
That's why there are few traffic lights, no lanes on streets, no crosswalks, ruthless traffic etc. People need up-to-date websites with contact details of elected representatives so that the representatives can be spammed to death about their inaction.
Not everywhere is. In big cities there is some mixture of tragedy of the commons, corruption and resource allocation problem. Garbage/waste collection is a local responsibility, but the city/municipal administrations in India are not very powerful compared to their Western counterparts. They don't have as much freedom in generating or dispersing with revenue and are mostly dependent on the state and national governments for their expenses. This makes it hard for the local government to do anything apart from the bare minimum.
It is the culture and I say this as an Indian. There are poorer nations surrounding India which are much cleaner - example: Srilanka, Nepal, Bhutan etc.
I won't go into what exact part of culture results in this because it will upset a lot of people - but I do ask Indians reading my comment to ponder upon it without becoming defensive
I won't go into what exact part of culture results in this because it will upset a lot of people - but I do ask Indians reading my comment to ponder upon it without becoming defensive
I'm not Indian but here's an observation:
Sri Lanka, Nepal and Bhutan do not have any cities with 5+ million people. In fact, the most populated cities in those nations do not even exceed 1 million people.
Sri Lanka, Nepal and Bhutan do not have any cities with 5+ million people. In fact, the most populated cities in those nations do not even exceed 1 million people.
It is not just the cities which are dirty in India
Because waste systems are very effortful. It would simply take lots and lots of labor to gather, transport, and dispose of all that trash in an organized way. Labor that is currently engaged in producing food, clothes, etc.
Think about the relative population density in many of these cities as well. And the relative productivity.
Not at all an easy problem to solve.
Think about the relative population density in many of these cities as well. And the relative productivity.
Not at all an easy problem to solve.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons just with more people and less space.
Why does this principle apply to India but not say Japan, Sweden, or Singapore?
Singapore hires armies of foreign workers to clean its streets. Although steep fines and heavy enforcement, including forcing litterers to clean the streets themselves, also helps.
Because it is overly reductive and incorrect
Size of population, homogeneity etc are factors which explain the difference. The city of Bangalore is bigger and more populous than Singapore.
It's apathy.
Garbage disposal is a huge industry in many parts of the world, giving employment to many people. It is also a cutting edge domain where abilities to recycle cost efficiently are needed for sustainability.
So this is unfortunately a classic example where culture, by defining (and limiting) what people think is important, influences also their economic condition.
But its not easy to instigate a culture of respect for the commons and appreciation for its smooth functioning. And implementing at scale garbage disposal, just like any other utility infrastructure, whether it is the post office, water or electricity requires further society "software" that is not trivial
So this is unfortunately a classic example where culture, by defining (and limiting) what people think is important, influences also their economic condition.
But its not easy to instigate a culture of respect for the commons and appreciation for its smooth functioning. And implementing at scale garbage disposal, just like any other utility infrastructure, whether it is the post office, water or electricity requires further society "software" that is not trivial
You shouldn’t blame culture when investments on this front are lacking.
Local governments in India are perennially short on money and it’s they who are responsible for things like water supply, sanitation and garbage collection.
There are several joint venture garbage disposal companies operating in India. But only a few municipal corporations can afford to pay them.
And those few cities that do use these services rank well in cleanliness rankings
Local governments in India are perennially short on money and it’s they who are responsible for things like water supply, sanitation and garbage collection.
There are several joint venture garbage disposal companies operating in India. But only a few municipal corporations can afford to pay them.
And those few cities that do use these services rank well in cleanliness rankings
there is a catch-22 that must be broken somehow (with some initial outside injection of funds) but if people appreciate the service it enters a virtuous circle: the people working on garbage disposal get salaries, they consume more and pay taxes, the taxes support municipal services which pay the salaries and the loop is closing.
people tend to discount how strong this circular effect is in the economy and implicitly assume that money is found under a rock (or stolen) and is essentially finite. there is some truth to that the sense that if the products or services people want depend on scarce natural resources (e.g. oil) then this creates a constraint. but for large parts of the economy the potential resides in our brains.
not a specific blame at all as this applies everywhere, just to different degrees. think about art for example. we have only as much art as we think is important because all artists must live from the rest of us. but if people think its important and they somehow get paid, they contribute to general welfare with their own demands etc.
its by no means trivial to change attitudes and there can be many other events that can derail those positive loops. but the general principle is something that should be appreciated more because that is ultimately how all wealth is built.
people tend to discount how strong this circular effect is in the economy and implicitly assume that money is found under a rock (or stolen) and is essentially finite. there is some truth to that the sense that if the products or services people want depend on scarce natural resources (e.g. oil) then this creates a constraint. but for large parts of the economy the potential resides in our brains.
not a specific blame at all as this applies everywhere, just to different degrees. think about art for example. we have only as much art as we think is important because all artists must live from the rest of us. but if people think its important and they somehow get paid, they contribute to general welfare with their own demands etc.
its by no means trivial to change attitudes and there can be many other events that can derail those positive loops. but the general principle is something that should be appreciated more because that is ultimately how all wealth is built.
> they consume more and pay taxes, the taxes support municipal services which pay the salaries
In India, neither income taxes nor consumption taxes go to the local municipalities. This fact makes the rest of your comment meaningless although positive loops can be created in other ways.
But my original point stands: Local governments need to increase their housing taxes and provide these services
There’s a pro-Poor policy bias in places that are actually rich and these places have very different expectations.
In India, neither income taxes nor consumption taxes go to the local municipalities. This fact makes the rest of your comment meaningless although positive loops can be created in other ways.
But my original point stands: Local governments need to increase their housing taxes and provide these services
There’s a pro-Poor policy bias in places that are actually rich and these places have very different expectations.
Last month I was in Mumbai visiting relatives, and found the ocean front is still covered in trash as it has been for decades. The vendors selling tea and snacks along the oceanfront are technically not allowed to sell there, so their primary concern is to make more money than they paid as a bribe to the beachfront police that day - the single-use cups and plates making it into a trash can is the least of anyone's concerns.