“Can we ban iPhone in retaliation?” Chinese internet reacts to TikTok hearing(thechinaproject.com)
thechinaproject.com
“Can we ban iPhone in retaliation?” Chinese internet reacts to TikTok hearing
https://thechinaproject.com/2023/03/24/can-we-ban-iphone-in-retaliation-chinese-internet-reacts-to-tiktok-hearing-in-the-u-s/
64 comments
Hasn't China been preemptively retaliating since 2000? Among FAANG only Apple still works. And FANG is actually the surname of the father of the Great Firewall. (Fang Binxing)
> Among FAANG only Apple still works.
Hmm, is this true?
Amazon has amazon.cn still running as far as I know, and supports china regions in the aws-cn partition via separate companies that "operate" the regions for them.
As far as I know, meta and Google don't operate their normal services in china, but I thought they still had offices there, which presumably do something.
Hmm, is this true?
Amazon has amazon.cn still running as far as I know, and supports china regions in the aws-cn partition via separate companies that "operate" the regions for them.
As far as I know, meta and Google don't operate their normal services in china, but I thought they still had offices there, which presumably do something.
The business that Amazon, Facebook, Google have in China is tiny relative to their size. Amazon has a few machine-translated pages that relay their US, UK, DE, JP sites' goods to China. Kindle's shut down. FB & Google sell some ads to local exporters.
Not really, they either pulled out or got banned because they wouldn't remove content that broke Chinese law, any Chinese company who did the same would also be banned.
Tiktok hasn't broken any American laws that result in more than fine.
Tiktok hasn't broken any American laws that result in more than fine.
No. 1. China's constitution protects free speech. Rendering many 'laws' unconstitutional. This may be too philosophical, so there is 2. Many 'laws' are intentionally vague so their application can be as arbitrary as possible: anything can 'disturb public order' or 'violate social morale'. Who's to decide? Of course it's the Party, not the law. 3. If you look carefully, even those catch-all regulations aren't there in many cases. Chen Yun, one of the Deng Xiaoping-era elders famously argued against making a News Law, saying "When the KMT was in power, we [the Communists] studied their news laws very carefully and exploited loopholes. Now that we're in power, it's better there is no law at all." In China, laws are "made strictly, violated widely, and enforced selectively." This is the real world Constitution.
>China's constitution protects free speech. Rendering many 'laws' unconstitutional.
China's constitution is interesting, as it grants both rights and obligations on citizens, such as the obligation to observe public order and respect social morality.
http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/constitution2019/201911/1f6...
China's constitution is interesting, as it grants both rights and obligations on citizens, such as the obligation to observe public order and respect social morality.
http://www.npc.gov.cn/englishnpc/constitution2019/201911/1f6...
Wouldn’t that be a tacit admission of the closeness, or importance, of TikTok to China… something TikTok/Bytedance is explicit trying not to do? They’re trying to up play the distance.
That would just be tit-for-tat market restrictions. From a third party point of view, the whole situation is hilarious. Especially seeing the USA trying to argue Chinese products are a significant risk regarding spying after Snowden.
This gets tossed out, but didn't Snowden literally prove they weren't the same?
In that the NSA had to tap backhaul links because they couldn't simply order Google to turn over Gmail data.
And was trawling internet traffic flows because it couldn't get the data it wanted from the providers themselves.
If you have an easy button... you use it. You don't accomplish secret and expensive engineering miracles just for the hell of it. Especially not with government budgets.
In that the NSA had to tap backhaul links because they couldn't simply order Google to turn over Gmail data.
And was trawling internet traffic flows because it couldn't get the data it wanted from the providers themselves.
If you have an easy button... you use it. You don't accomplish secret and expensive engineering miracles just for the hell of it. Especially not with government budgets.
No, it didn’t, no idea where you dreamed that. Snowden showed that all American companies were in bed with the US government when it came to spying on foreigners.
Details on "Snowden showed that all American companies were in bed with the US government when it came to spying on foreigners"?
Because that wasn't in the records I read.
Because that wasn't in the records I read.
I imagine GP is talking about PRISM:
PRISM is a code name for a program under which the United States National Security Agency (NSA) collects internet communications from various U.S. internet companies. The program is also known by the SIGAD US-984XN. PRISM collects stored internet communications based on demands made to internet companies such as Google LLC under Section 702 of the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 to turn over any data that match court-approved search terms. Among other things, the NSA can use these PRISM requests to target communications that were encrypted when they traveled across the internet backbone, to focus on stored data that telecommunication filtering systems discarded earlier, and to get data that is easier to handle.
No. The official discourse is that tiktok ban comes from a security point of view, and not economic war. No one buys it though, at least not oversea.
China says they oppose the push to force a sale of TikTok. [1] I do not know what to read into that.
[1] - https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/24/tech/china-opposes-tiktok-sal...
[1] - https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/24/tech/china-opposes-tiktok-sal...
You can ban Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Oh, wait…
I'm just waiting for someone to make an open-source TikTok analog that can just replace the functionality with a platform not controlled by a single party .. we still have that dream right, cryptonerds?
Seems like the best solution to the problem.
Seems like the best solution to the problem.
There are quite a few open source platforms that could be modified to technically replace TikTok. Peertube could probably be forked or modified to fill that gap. I do not believe that is the obstacle. Running a massive site like that is incredibly expensive, requires a lot of employees, servers, bandwidth, geographic locations, moderators and more moderators. Then there would be the fun that comes with creating a competing site to TikTok, dealing with all its followers and anyone that has a vested interest in TikTok especially when the alternative gains any popularity.
The only open source case I can think of that has some success is Mastodon and that is because it's creators let people launch their own mini communities but that is a different social model all together, probably closer to self hosted forums with a different UX/UI. TikTok's success comes from the centralized discoverability and its algorithms. Mastodon on the other hand is a fenced garden. Almost anyone can walk through the garden gate but AFAIK there is not a centralized search function for full discoverability.
The only open source case I can think of that has some success is Mastodon and that is because it's creators let people launch their own mini communities but that is a different social model all together, probably closer to self hosted forums with a different UX/UI. TikTok's success comes from the centralized discoverability and its algorithms. Mastodon on the other hand is a fenced garden. Almost anyone can walk through the garden gate but AFAIK there is not a centralized search function for full discoverability.
I'd wager its just a matter of time until someone gloms a front-end to Mastodon that will do all the transcoding/transfer magic required to produce the same functionality. Lets see ..
I could see that being an option. It's totally doable technically. FFMpeg, some libraries, some code changes and then the Mastodon hosts will need more CPU, bandwidth and disk space. Maybe some of them already have some beefy servers. There is still the mater of discoverability. One could find video shorts in the same instance but AFAIK there is not a centralized search unless one is depending on Google.
Who is going to pay for that storage for all these crappy videos? It has to be stored somewhere which costs $$$. No open source solution will ever gain critical mass due to that.
Who's going to pay for that? Not only the software, but the video hosting, transcoding, etc.
And don't tell me you can do it with p2p - the entire point of tiktok is that you can load new videos by swiping your finger. If every video takes 10 seconds to begin buffering nobody will want to use your app.
And don't tell me you can do it with p2p - the entire point of tiktok is that you can load new videos by swiping your finger. If every video takes 10 seconds to begin buffering nobody will want to use your app.
I heard these same arguments about the Linux kernel, back in the days before it came along and ate everyones' lunch.
This app can be built, quite easily, by anyone motivated to do so. Just like the kernel, just like a distribution vendor, just like any one of the thousands of highly successful open source, community-oriented projects out there.
This app can be built, quite easily, by anyone motivated to do so. Just like the kernel, just like a distribution vendor, just like any one of the thousands of highly successful open source, community-oriented projects out there.
Their algo is the best. Not even the big players have been able to copy.
Hypothesis: it’s not being copied because it connects users to more users, instead of connecting users to brands.
Funny, but they won't. TikTok isn't going anywhere. There's too much money involved, not to mention constitutional rights and law. China won't ban the iPhone because they love it too much and they can't make something better.
All of this is a complete waste of time.
All of this is a complete waste of time.
> they can't make something better.
Before the US sanctioned Huawei, Huawei's flagship phones were better than the iPhone (assuming you can tolerate Android).
Sanctions dealt a heavy blow to Huawei, but there are other Chinese smartphone manufacturers that make very good flagships now.
Before the US sanctioned Huawei, Huawei's flagship phones were better than the iPhone (assuming you can tolerate Android).
Sanctions dealt a heavy blow to Huawei, but there are other Chinese smartphone manufacturers that make very good flagships now.
>China won't ban the iPhone because they love it too much and they can't make something better.
Incorrect, there are many iPhone substitutes.
Incorrect, there are many iPhone substitutes.
The iPhone is the best selling smart phone in the world. There may be other phones, but Chinese people are buying iPhones over their own domestic brands.
>Chinese people are buying iPhones over their own domestic brands.
What percentage of Chinese people own an iPhone vs an Android?
What percentage of Chinese people own an iPhone vs an Android?
I googled that for you.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/467160/forecast-of-smart...
https://www.statista.com/statistics/467160/forecast-of-smart...
>Chinese people are buying iPhones over their own domestic brands.
You implied >=50%.
>I googled that for you. *paywall
I wanted you to Google it for yourself to understand just how small iPhone usage is (~20%).
You implied >=50%.
>I googled that for you. *paywall
I wanted you to Google it for yourself to understand just how small iPhone usage is (~20%).
s '/ban iPhone/ban Facebook, YouTube, and Twitter/' seems more reasonable.
Aren't all those things already blocked/banned in China? (since 2009).
(I feel like a joke might be wooshing over my head here).
(I feel like a joke might be wooshing over my head here).
Google and Facebook had the option of operating in China under conditions somewhat similar to TikTok’s project Texas: servers in China, operating under local laws, supporting authorities in surveillance and censorship.
Apple and Microsoft operate services under those conditions in China.
Apple and Microsoft operate services under those conditions in China.
Equating US and Chinese court protections is wrong by orders of magnitude.
The US has its failures, but it has a much stricter and more oppositional judiciary than China.
Ergo, Google and Facebook in China would not be like TikTok Project Texas.
The US has its failures, but it has a much stricter and more oppositional judiciary than China.
Ergo, Google and Facebook in China would not be like TikTok Project Texas.
Yes.
(Yeah, I was taking a stab at a more-complex joke. A bit about the hypocrisy of the Chinese position, but mostly about how narrow and simplistic the Congress and western news media seem to be on this issue. Or perhaps America's social media giants have "incentivized" our politicians and press to keep them out of it?)
(Yeah, I was taking a stab at a more-complex joke. A bit about the hypocrisy of the Chinese position, but mostly about how narrow and simplistic the Congress and western news media seem to be on this issue. Or perhaps America's social media giants have "incentivized" our politicians and press to keep them out of it?)
What's wild is that, they don't even have TikTok in China.
Douyin basically
Of course they do. It's got another name (抖音) but it's basically the same exact product.
it’s the same product but they only allow educational content and stuff that promotes Chinese hegemony.
They let the rest of the world have nyquil chicken.
They let the rest of the world have nyquil chicken.
> they only allow educational content
Douyin is full of trashy/silly content.
It never ceases to amaze me how blatantly false, easily disproven claims about China, such as, "Douyin is all math and science videos" become common wisdom in the US. Nobody bothers to check for themselves. Someone makes something up, and everyone else just runs with it.
The best example of this is the social credit score myth, which somehow refuses to die, despite the fact that it's untrue and completely absurd.
Douyin is full of trashy/silly content.
It never ceases to amaze me how blatantly false, easily disproven claims about China, such as, "Douyin is all math and science videos" become common wisdom in the US. Nobody bothers to check for themselves. Someone makes something up, and everyone else just runs with it.
The best example of this is the social credit score myth, which somehow refuses to die, despite the fact that it's untrue and completely absurd.
That's false. You can download the app and check yourself.
It's dance videos, memes and cat videos. And also billions more ads. The 'OMG ITS LE SMART PPL TIKTOK' is a falsehood created by sensationalism.
“Let me state this unequivocally: ByteDance is not an agent of China or any other country,” Chew said
I mean, we are talking about a regime that kidnaps world famous artists, olympic athletes and business tycoons and dissappear them for months if they ever dare to challenge or disobey the Chinese Communist Party in any way or form.
Just imagine if in the US the goverment kidnaps Serena Williams, Jennifer Lawrence or Tim Cook and puts them out for a long time and when they return they are so terrified to say anything that getting any information about their whereabouts is practically impossible.
This is how the CCP operates and controls enterprises and the general population.
The CEO of Bytedance knows this and knew it when he took the job.
So now coming to say under oath that Bytedance is not an agent of the CCP, when Chew himself is at the very top of the watch list of the regime is not only perjury but just plain ridiculous.
I mean, we are talking about a regime that kidnaps world famous artists, olympic athletes and business tycoons and dissappear them for months if they ever dare to challenge or disobey the Chinese Communist Party in any way or form.
Just imagine if in the US the goverment kidnaps Serena Williams, Jennifer Lawrence or Tim Cook and puts them out for a long time and when they return they are so terrified to say anything that getting any information about their whereabouts is practically impossible.
This is how the CCP operates and controls enterprises and the general population.
The CEO of Bytedance knows this and knew it when he took the job.
So now coming to say under oath that Bytedance is not an agent of the CCP, when Chew himself is at the very top of the watch list of the regime is not only perjury but just plain ridiculous.
There's definitely a lot of behind the scenes lobbying from American internet companies against Tik Tok as they can't control what they don't own. They also can't buy it as it's a China company. I still don't see why Tik Tok is any worse than kids being brainwashed with American social media or ad companies. Zuck is as much a devil as the villians in the Communist Chinese Government.
”Have the Communist Party grill the Apple C.E.O?“ in response to the TikTok C.E.O.'s grilling.
I suspect that's already been done a few times - but the CCP did not want a public spectacle, and the US Congress did.
6 hours of testimony that, at most, 2-3% of the country even glanced at is a spectacle in your eyes?
This looks like splitting, or you're deliberately failing to understand how lawmaking works and the importance of making informed decisions at the federal level, in the long term.
Congress constantly grills CEOs, the elite, and victims because it is understood that they reshape society, sometimes for the worse, not always on purpose.
Is a law needed? How do we tax it? Who is being harmed? What is the harm? Can a law be enforced?
The transparency is by default. Not a "spectacle".
This looks like splitting, or you're deliberately failing to understand how lawmaking works and the importance of making informed decisions at the federal level, in the long term.
Congress constantly grills CEOs, the elite, and victims because it is understood that they reshape society, sometimes for the worse, not always on purpose.
Is a law needed? How do we tax it? Who is being harmed? What is the harm? Can a law be enforced?
The transparency is by default. Not a "spectacle".
The US idea of a committee hearing is pure spectacle. There is a reason it doesn’t really exist in any other country. Everything that was achieve here could have been achieve through usual channels of communication with companies and the private sector. It just wouldn’t look as good on TV.
It does exist in many other countries.
The reason you don't know it is because the CEOs of the biggest corporations in the world don't live there, so it doesn't get any media attention.
Who cares about the grilling of the CEO of Royal Mail in the UK?
If you do, here you can watch it
https://youtu.be/-aFR2E_uG_I
The reason you don't know it is because the CEOs of the biggest corporations in the world don't live there, so it doesn't get any media attention.
Who cares about the grilling of the CEO of Royal Mail in the UK?
If you do, here you can watch it
https://youtu.be/-aFR2E_uG_I
Communication requires two parties, through what other channel is the entire US public to formally express it's concerns to the company?
I think that’s very well put. It’s kind of funny thinking that if the commentator made an equally tithy (false or not) saying throwing shade on China in private on WeChat they’d be censured within a day or two.
I mean, civic engagement is certainly a cultural difference, and it's pretty stark I think.
I can remember being in high school, still in the age of minority, and feeling joy when one of the louder, dumber cooks finally kicked off.
I kind of suspect Beijing and the CCP of not being so colorful at the federal level, and rather just being a giant executive bureaucracy with principle, law, and regulation intermixed freely, minimal federation, which leaves them largely ignored by society and festering until they're in your face enforcing lock downs -- like an authoritarian military state.
I unfortunately don't read a lick of Mandarin, and I'm not sure where to get a more optimistic view about what goes on over there, but I'm curious.
I can remember being in high school, still in the age of minority, and feeling joy when one of the louder, dumber cooks finally kicked off.
I kind of suspect Beijing and the CCP of not being so colorful at the federal level, and rather just being a giant executive bureaucracy with principle, law, and regulation intermixed freely, minimal federation, which leaves them largely ignored by society and festering until they're in your face enforcing lock downs -- like an authoritarian military state.
I unfortunately don't read a lick of Mandarin, and I'm not sure where to get a more optimistic view about what goes on over there, but I'm curious.
Did you watch those hearings? Spectacle is a very generous word.
I haven't watched the TikTok hearing, but I have watched the 4-5 preceding Big Tech-focused hearings basically since "The Encryption Tightrope."
You can't generalize the whole thing as spectacle just because a few of the congressmen choose to grandstand / push an agenda / be generally tonedeaf, I can almost guess that in 6 hours at least some of the concerns are legitimate and merit public discourse even if they are nuanced, possibly quite boring, and have more to do with how OS maintainers and parents should behave.
Everything is in the crosshairs and nothing material is sacred, and it has been that way for as long as I can remember[0]. That's why we hire these people.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhwM3ZMTCR0
You can't generalize the whole thing as spectacle just because a few of the congressmen choose to grandstand / push an agenda / be generally tonedeaf, I can almost guess that in 6 hours at least some of the concerns are legitimate and merit public discourse even if they are nuanced, possibly quite boring, and have more to do with how OS maintainers and parents should behave.
Everything is in the crosshairs and nothing material is sacred, and it has been that way for as long as I can remember[0]. That's why we hire these people.
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhwM3ZMTCR0
Owning an iPhone shows the owner has privilege to overpay for commodity hardware, manufactured in their backyard; no one will give it up.
>Owning an iPhone shows the owner has privilege to overpay for commodity hardware
Huawei/Xiaomi flagships cost as much as an iPhone.
Huawei/Xiaomi flagships cost as much as an iPhone.
How many other iPhone owners know that?
One company or product isn't going to be that important in the long run.
What is more concerning here is if the US is being out-competed to the point where they have to take legislative action. If they make a habit of that, it means that they are making some deep mistakes in their regulatory structure. The Chinese managed to do something here that the EU, Africa and India didn't manage.
Traditionally (eg, vs the USSR) America went in with a strong corporate and social base that took the expectations off the Fine Minds in Government. If it comes down to US bureaucrats vs Chinese bureaucrats my money is on the Chinese, their government is more internally coherent. The US needs competitive corporations.
What is more concerning here is if the US is being out-competed to the point where they have to take legislative action. If they make a habit of that, it means that they are making some deep mistakes in their regulatory structure. The Chinese managed to do something here that the EU, Africa and India didn't manage.
Traditionally (eg, vs the USSR) America went in with a strong corporate and social base that took the expectations off the Fine Minds in Government. If it comes down to US bureaucrats vs Chinese bureaucrats my money is on the Chinese, their government is more internally coherent. The US needs competitive corporations.
Why are you assuming that US tech companies being out competed is necessarily due to US regulation? Maybe they just fucked up and lost the all-important youth attention market on their own. I don't see any reason to think something other than that actually.
Tiktok success is literally the result of vine shutting down.