Everyday uses for PVC water pipe(tomtilley.net)
tomtilley.net
Everyday uses for PVC water pipe
https://tomtilley.net/projects/pvc/
162 comments
This might be the craziest thing I have ever seen. How is this even possible? He doesn't measure or mark anything?? How can it fit together? How are the repeated parts so perfectly identical?
It even has windshield wipers, that's pretty wild: https://youtube.com/watch?v=qam0DmWq_No&t=48m1s
He hand drilled each and every hole for the perforated step plates. Just in awe of both the skill and the patience.
He also seems to be working with several tools he made himself.
He also seems to be working with several tools he made himself.
I've only gotten to the part where he makes the gear... despite having a few jigs, I can't get over how much he's doing by hand and by eye with sufficient precision. The teeth were hand drawn and match up with the spacing of the tracks made earlier. Very impressive work.
https://youtu.be/qam0DmWq_No?t=971
this is fucking amazing. stencil a photo from a screen and trace it on to an object.
i am generally hateful towards 5 minute crafts but this is serious engineering.
this is fucking amazing. stencil a photo from a screen and trace it on to an object.
i am generally hateful towards 5 minute crafts but this is serious engineering.
The style is similar to the way dovetails were cut by hand in drawers before dovetail machines became a thing.
That's amazing. Some kid from some small town in Northern Vietnam, who is a genius.
This deserves its own HN post.
Agreed, submitted https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37534779
When I saw the finished model at the start of the video, my first thought was "clearly there must be some PVC sheets used". You clearly said that he's flattening the tubing with heat, but my brain just couldn't accept the work involved in doing that for every flat surface I was seeing. Truly remarkable.
PVC is quite toxic in a variety of ways. I would never heat, cut PVC voluntarily, especially without full breathing protection
I was wondering about that myself... It also gave me the willies when he was using the table saw cutting those tiny little strips with his fingers so close to the blade!
Realistically, given the tiny size of that table saw and the small parts needed to cut, what other way would there be to use it?
He could have used another piece of pvc instead of his finger
We never see his face so I'm not sure where your assumptions are coming from, but I'm sure someone with enough PVC experience to make a working model excavator out of PVC is probably taking the necessary safety precautions..
I think this sequence is sufficient to infer that their approach to safety is not commensurate with their engineering skill. https://youtu.be/Z6JvAZHJCAo?si=y-nWawnkC_mIAvVM&t=123
Talent at fabrication and wisdom/access to adequate PPE's are almost entirely uncorrelated
I started watching this and couldn't stop. It is ridiculously impressive.
I would guess he would have used some CAD tool to design this excavator? It had to have been very carefully thought out to ensure proper access to put the pieces together and take them back apart all along the way. Does he say in other videos what he uses?
I would guess he would have used some CAD tool to design this excavator? It had to have been very carefully thought out to ensure proper access to put the pieces together and take them back apart all along the way. Does he say in other videos what he uses?
I would have assumed the same, but at 16:08 and 17:58 he's sketching parts by hand overlaid on a computer monitor with reference images
What a mad man
What a mad man
I came here to post about this. Very impressive. I wonder how he got the model to such high level of 3d Fidelity. Can PVC objects be additively manufactured?
This is astounding. What I want to know is, how does one have that much free time?
The channel has 500k subscribers, so it's probably a full time job/business. I wouldn't be surprised if they take shortcuts by having parts made off camera by "helpers".
At the end of the day, these things are entertainment for us to consume and they don't have to show us all the effort happening off-camera.
I say this generally for these kinds of channels, not this one specifically.
At the end of the day, these things are entertainment for us to consume and they don't have to show us all the effort happening off-camera.
I say this generally for these kinds of channels, not this one specifically.
Is it “free time” though when they post multiple videos per month and regularly have several million views?
Fantastic. Thanks.
Impressive, but it hurts me to see how much risk to loose his fingers he takes.
Cool video except they left out all the steps necessary to reach the incredible precision.
This is not how engineers work.
This is not how engineers work.
It occasionally cuts to measuring items with calipers, a multimeter, using a compass, and parts show up on screen with score marks, so I assume the creator is definitely measuring things off camera.
The video is an hour long, but the fast scene cuts, and focusing on the actual assembly actions makes the video somehow more compelling and "can't-look-away".
The video is an hour long, but the fast scene cuts, and focusing on the actual assembly actions makes the video somehow more compelling and "can't-look-away".
An engineer is not a YouTube video which is essentially a (maybe) narrated highlight reel of a process. I don’t find it disingenuous to condense this down for general consumption because there just is not a ton of value from showing every measurement, each individual cut, and inevitable mess-ups of this process.
Interestingly, plumbing your house with PVC water pipe is not a fantastic idea and is not allowed under most plumbing codes. The specific issue is that PVC loses strength at higher temperatures, so performance at household water pressures with household hot water is somewhat marginal. Manufacturers don’t rate their pipe at all above 140 degrees F. Having your pipe burst when you run hot water through it is undesirable, and inspectors can’t easily tell whether a pipe is a hot water pipe or a cold water pipe, so PVC is generally not permitted for indoor potable use.
CPVC has much better hot water performance, isn’t terribly hard to find, and glues just like PVC as long as you use the right glue.
(Very confusingly, CPVC pipe is usually sold in “copper tube size” instead of Schedule 40/80. But this means that many push-to-connect fittings work on CPVC pipe.)
CPVC has much better hot water performance, isn’t terribly hard to find, and glues just like PVC as long as you use the right glue.
(Very confusingly, CPVC pipe is usually sold in “copper tube size” instead of Schedule 40/80. But this means that many push-to-connect fittings work on CPVC pipe.)
CPVC might be better than PVC, but it's still way worse than copper or pex. Both PVC and CPVC will shatter if stressed beyond it's yield strength. Go hit it with a hammer, and compare that to hitting a copper pipe or pex. This is also the reason why pvc is super dangerous for compressed air.
It's certainly not 'way worse'. CPVC/PVC has its advantages and disadvantages, just like every other piping method. CPVC can become less pliable over time, particularly for hot water, but properly (by code) supported/strapped and glued, it can last for decades. It, like PEX, should be run to a well-secured, copper stub out where it sticks out of the wall in an area where it could be damaged.
Copper is not without its disadvantages: it's outrageous expensive as of late, soldering can be dangerous (banned in some cases due to fire risk), it takes longer to install than most other options, and some water supplies have a composition that leads to premature failures.
PEX is a universe of options: PEX-A, PEX-B, crimp rings, clamps, plastic/brass fittings, etc. It also needs to be properly installed - PEX B has very specific locations for the crimp/clamp rings on the fitting, and the difference between a proper crimp/clamp and a failure waiting to happen is very subtle.
Copper is not without its disadvantages: it's outrageous expensive as of late, soldering can be dangerous (banned in some cases due to fire risk), it takes longer to install than most other options, and some water supplies have a composition that leads to premature failures.
PEX is a universe of options: PEX-A, PEX-B, crimp rings, clamps, plastic/brass fittings, etc. It also needs to be properly installed - PEX B has very specific locations for the crimp/clamp rings on the fitting, and the difference between a proper crimp/clamp and a failure waiting to happen is very subtle.
"it can last for decades"
Just my personal opinion, that's the problem with US housing. We build stuff to last 20-30 years(if properly installed) , instead of 100s of years.
Just my personal opinion, that's the problem with US housing. We build stuff to last 20-30 years(if properly installed) , instead of 100s of years.
We build most houses to last for centuries when properly maintained. We also know from experience that few houses go more than 50 years without a major remodel so we don't overbuild making that impossible.
> We also know from experience that few houses go more than 50 years without a major remodel
Well obviously, if we don't build houses to last longer than a few decades. You're describing a symptom not a reason.
Well obviously, if we don't build houses to last longer than a few decades. You're describing a symptom not a reason.
People's needs change. Technology marches on. My house was built in 1973, next week i'm throwing away a furnace that is still working like new because it is 60% efficient. I don't know how efficient the air conditioner is, but it is being replaced by a heat pump that will be better. If it wasn't so expensive the windows that are working like new would go as well for something more energy efficient. I'm also considering (unlikely but considering) options to make my kitchen larger like what a new house would have as this lacks some functionality of a modern kitchen. Previous owners added a few extra bedrooms in the 1980s. This house was built without cable tv or internet wiring, some of that was added latter, but not to every room (and.with modern wifi probably isn't needed anymore. I haven't tested, but i'm sure the pipes were soldered with lead, the paint might have lead underneath, and there could be asbestos in places.
My house is typical for a house its age. I have no idea what people will want from a house in 2073, but it will be at least somewhat different from today. Some of that will be style of course, but some will be real functional differences.
My house is typical for a house its age. I have no idea what people will want from a house in 2073, but it will be at least somewhat different from today. Some of that will be style of course, but some will be real functional differences.
It's not like these needs can't be anticipated. The wiring problem can be solved by running conduit, or at least making fishing easy. As for the heating, the basic problem of pushing around hot air or hot water just isn't going to change, regardless of the details of how it's accomplished.
My point is that it's possible to build a house with with a lasting structure that can be updated for new technologies as they arise relatively easily, but we don't do that because the home building industry is overrun with corner cutting.
If you visit old houses (pre-war) you can see that the general quality of the construction is just considerably higher than the crackerjack boxes we've been erecting since the '50s. Sure, there is an element of survivorship bias, and some of the legacy stuff is ugly to deal with (lead paint, asbestos, horsehair, and knob and tube, I'm looking at you), but overall they were built to last in a way that new construction today just isn't.
My point is that it's possible to build a house with with a lasting structure that can be updated for new technologies as they arise relatively easily, but we don't do that because the home building industry is overrun with corner cutting.
If you visit old houses (pre-war) you can see that the general quality of the construction is just considerably higher than the crackerjack boxes we've been erecting since the '50s. Sure, there is an element of survivorship bias, and some of the legacy stuff is ugly to deal with (lead paint, asbestos, horsehair, and knob and tube, I'm looking at you), but overall they were built to last in a way that new construction today just isn't.
You obviously have not looked at old houses in detail. They are far worse quality than today. Sure they may have used old growth lumber which was slightly stronger, but they had no concept of what was quality. I've seen 2x4 used for floor joists, no insulation in walls, and many other engineering failures. And of course there is survivorship bias, the worst examples are torn down already.
Sure the old houses looked stronger, and and often were in places where strength is not needed. However they often are lacking in critical areas.
Sure the old houses looked stronger, and and often were in places where strength is not needed. However they often are lacking in critical areas.
Even the things you mention have changes: what about a ton of conduit runs for POTS lines that now seem quaint? Many of these, even if in conduit, aren't in locations where slapping an Ethernet jack makes sense. Duct work for fossil fuel furnaces is often undersized for heat pumps or AC that needs to flow a certain amount of air to function.
I'm OK with multi-decade life for certain things like roofs or fences or siding. But not for plumbing. What happens, one day the pipe just bursts and destroys the house?
Depends. PVC tends to fail catastrophicly so if you are nnot home to get the valve off you are in trouble (odds are you are home, as pressure changes from turning a faucet off are likely to cause this. Metal pipes develop slow leaks over time so if you look at the house monthly you will probably catch issues before they do too much damage. So long as PEX isn't exposed to UV is is probably good forever (but the joints
are not).
Floods generally will not destory a house structure but it will destory the drywall, carpet, and the like so the cleanup is expensive.
Floods generally will not destory a house structure but it will destory the drywall, carpet, and the like so the cleanup is expensive.
If you go PEX, I highly recommend going the entire Uponor route and use the expansion tooling (get the powered one).
No need to worry about incorrect crimps and it just works.
No need to worry about incorrect crimps and it just works.
If only Uponor would flesh out their fitting portfolio for 3/8”. 3/8” PEX is a near-perfect material for hot water distribution to sinks and showers — jurisdictions seem to have settled on the 0-2gpm range for sinks and showers, and 3/8” PEX high velocity at moderate pressure loss at these flows, which is exactly what you want. [0] But Uponor has very limited 3/8” parts, and using their brass fittings in that small size makes me a bit uneasy due to potential erosion issues. Give me stainless steel or plastic, please, or at least something where the very narrow part that inserts into the 3/8” PEX tube is highly resistant to fast-moving hot water.
If you consider push-to-connect fittings acceptable, something like this could be very nice for connecting tubing to shower valves:
https://www.johnguest.com/us/en/cts-fittings/prolock/threade...
(3/8” is permitted by code, but not by the tables in the UPC - actual math is required.)
[0] PEX, unlike copper, tolerates fairly high velocity hot water. Copper has a delicate passive layer on the inside, and scrubbing it off will erode the pipe. The interior of a PEX pipe, is, drumroll please, just PEX, which is a rather tough polymer that is not going to be easily eroded away.
If you consider push-to-connect fittings acceptable, something like this could be very nice for connecting tubing to shower valves:
https://www.johnguest.com/us/en/cts-fittings/prolock/threade...
(3/8” is permitted by code, but not by the tables in the UPC - actual math is required.)
[0] PEX, unlike copper, tolerates fairly high velocity hot water. Copper has a delicate passive layer on the inside, and scrubbing it off will erode the pipe. The interior of a PEX pipe, is, drumroll please, just PEX, which is a rather tough polymer that is not going to be easily eroded away.
Both PEX-A and PEX-B require a separate tools (segment of the tool, or swappable tool head) to perform the pipe to fitting connection. In most cases, it’s easier to just upsize the pipe and have your final termination point be the size you need. I’d rather have very cheap 1/2 inch available than have slightly more expensive 1/2 and 3/8 inch. If needed anything that required the 3/8 in, I would just use copper because it’s likely a very small and isolated case.
You’re missing my point.
For domestic hot water, for the connection from whatever part of the system stays hot (the header, the recirc loop, etc) to the fixture, the amount of time and wasted water needed to get hot water to the fixture is directly proportional to the volume of the interior of the pipe, and for a fixed length of pipe, it’s inversely proportional to velocity. So you want the narrowest pipe you can get away with. 3/8” PEX has about half the interior cross-sectional area as 1/2”. This means you get hot water about twice as fast. 3/8” PEX loses about 26 psi/100 ft at 2 gpm and much less at lower flow. If you have 40 psi water and you have a short-ish pipe, that’s usually fine. Or if you have higher pressure and a longer pipe, you’re still fine.
The issue here has that, while the 3/8” PEX is near-perfect for this application, the rest of the system is not amazing. Your sink is likely (sigh) “3/8 female compression”, aka non-standard 9/16 UNEF or so, but the flow rate is well under 2 gpm, so this isn’t a big deal - use whatever adapter you like.
But your shower likely has 1/2” NPT brass female threads. To get the benefit of 3/8” PEX, you need to adapt it at the shower.
> If needed anything that required the 3/8 in, I would just use copper because it’s likely a very small and isolated case.
No, don’t do that. From the horse’s mouth (this particular horse very much wanting you to use copper):
https://copper.org/applications/plumbing/cth/design-installa...
> [Copper Pipe] Water Velocity Limitations
> To avoid excessive system noise and the possibility of erosion-corrosion, the designer should not exceed flow velocities of 8 feet per second for cold water and 5 feet per second in hot water up to approximately 140°F. In systems where water temperatures routinely exceed 140°F, lower flow velocities such as 2 to 3 feet per second should not be exceeded. In addition, where 1/2-inch and smaller tube sizes are used, to guard against localized high velocity turbulence due to possibly faulty workmanship (e.g. burrs at tube ends which were not properly reamed/deburred) or unusually numerous, abrupt changes in flow direction, lower velocities should be considered. Locally aggressive water conditions can combine with these two considerations to cause erosion-corrosion if system velocities are too high.
A 2.2 gpm shower head fed by 3/8” copper is out of spec.
I have personally seen copper tube fail when used with plain water at excessive velocity. It’s not pretty. Fortunately it was outdoors. Don’t do this inside your walls. Most vendors seem to think 8 ft/sec in PEX at 140F is fine, though.
For domestic hot water, for the connection from whatever part of the system stays hot (the header, the recirc loop, etc) to the fixture, the amount of time and wasted water needed to get hot water to the fixture is directly proportional to the volume of the interior of the pipe, and for a fixed length of pipe, it’s inversely proportional to velocity. So you want the narrowest pipe you can get away with. 3/8” PEX has about half the interior cross-sectional area as 1/2”. This means you get hot water about twice as fast. 3/8” PEX loses about 26 psi/100 ft at 2 gpm and much less at lower flow. If you have 40 psi water and you have a short-ish pipe, that’s usually fine. Or if you have higher pressure and a longer pipe, you’re still fine.
The issue here has that, while the 3/8” PEX is near-perfect for this application, the rest of the system is not amazing. Your sink is likely (sigh) “3/8 female compression”, aka non-standard 9/16 UNEF or so, but the flow rate is well under 2 gpm, so this isn’t a big deal - use whatever adapter you like.
But your shower likely has 1/2” NPT brass female threads. To get the benefit of 3/8” PEX, you need to adapt it at the shower.
> If needed anything that required the 3/8 in, I would just use copper because it’s likely a very small and isolated case.
No, don’t do that. From the horse’s mouth (this particular horse very much wanting you to use copper):
https://copper.org/applications/plumbing/cth/design-installa...
> [Copper Pipe] Water Velocity Limitations
> To avoid excessive system noise and the possibility of erosion-corrosion, the designer should not exceed flow velocities of 8 feet per second for cold water and 5 feet per second in hot water up to approximately 140°F. In systems where water temperatures routinely exceed 140°F, lower flow velocities such as 2 to 3 feet per second should not be exceeded. In addition, where 1/2-inch and smaller tube sizes are used, to guard against localized high velocity turbulence due to possibly faulty workmanship (e.g. burrs at tube ends which were not properly reamed/deburred) or unusually numerous, abrupt changes in flow direction, lower velocities should be considered. Locally aggressive water conditions can combine with these two considerations to cause erosion-corrosion if system velocities are too high.
A 2.2 gpm shower head fed by 3/8” copper is out of spec.
I have personally seen copper tube fail when used with plain water at excessive velocity. It’s not pretty. Fortunately it was outdoors. Don’t do this inside your walls. Most vendors seem to think 8 ft/sec in PEX at 140F is fine, though.
> 3/8” is permitted by code, but not by the tables in the UPC
Can you elaborate on this please?
It takes 90 seconds for hot water to flow from my water heater to my kitchen in the winter. I’m not sure if I have 1/2 or 3/8 pex (I’d have to crawl under the house to check). I’ve been thinking of adding a small Bosch water heater under the sink or a recirculation like, but maybe I should reduce the size of the pipe too
Can you elaborate on this please?
It takes 90 seconds for hot water to flow from my water heater to my kitchen in the winter. I’m not sure if I have 1/2 or 3/8 pex (I’d have to crawl under the house to check). I’ve been thinking of adding a small Bosch water heater under the sink or a recirculation like, but maybe I should reduce the size of the pipe too
Code will have requirements like "pipe must flow X gallons/min" or something - and then a table of pipes of various materials and if they meet the requirements at a given length.
But they don't list all possible pipes, or all lengths. And the argument is that 3/8 PEX will flow to requirements and have a smaller amount of water sitting in it.
But they don't list all possible pipes, or all lengths. And the argument is that 3/8 PEX will flow to requirements and have a smaller amount of water sitting in it.
I think everyone just uses 1/2 and doesn't have junctions at all.
Press fittings alleviates the need for soldering copper.
> This is also the reason why pvc is super dangerous for compressed air.
Back in the day all us kids knew to get the ABS stuff when building our potato cannons. I was terrified of the combustion chamber shattering right next to my face.
Back in the day all us kids knew to get the ABS stuff when building our potato cannons. I was terrified of the combustion chamber shattering right next to my face.
I remember hearing the opposite, 20 years ago when I made one–that PVC was preferable to ABS because you couldn’t readily buy ABS with any sort of pressure rating.
It didn’t even occur to me that ABS pipe is pretty much only used for drainage and vents. I think it’s still probably decent to have unrated pipe tear smoothly rather than rated pipe—over pressured—shatter?
I guess the pro move is to either (1) fully characterize the amount of pressure made from a random shot of hairspray, then choose a PVC pipe to accommodate, or (2) put a larger ABS sleeve over the inner PVC combustion chamber to contain the shrapnel.
I guess the pro move is to either (1) fully characterize the amount of pressure made from a random shot of hairspray, then choose a PVC pipe to accommodate, or (2) put a larger ABS sleeve over the inner PVC combustion chamber to contain the shrapnel.
That's why you do a pressure test at twice the working pressure, with the thing under a blanket.
This should be repeated every year.
This should be repeated every year.
We didn't know this and I'm realizing now were incredibly lucky!
Oh shit - we did not know. I guess we got lucky too!
The only thing I really trust is pex-alu-pex. Flexible thin aluminum pipe with plastic on the inside and the outside.
Copper is toxic to microbes, plastics are not.
Relevant for salmonella for example. This alone would be reason for me to just use copper.
Relevant for salmonella for example. This alone would be reason for me to just use copper.
This seems like borderline paranoia. Water travels potentially dozens of miles from the place where it is cleaned and treated with chlorine to kill bugs. The vast majority of that in non-copper pipes. The last few feet inside your house seems unlikely to change anything.
Yes but the dozens of miles is moving water whereas the last few feet in you house is stale water.
I have a filter before the water comes in and after it comes out of the water tank.
Heated water is kept in a different reservoir and the piping uses heat resistant PVC.
In Brazil, most times the water has a smell of chlorine so I guess the chances of it having deadly/lethal microbia there are next to null?
Drank water from the tap (where plumbing is done properly) for all my life, never had any problems so far.
Heated water is kept in a different reservoir and the piping uses heat resistant PVC.
In Brazil, most times the water has a smell of chlorine so I guess the chances of it having deadly/lethal microbia there are next to null?
Drank water from the tap (where plumbing is done properly) for all my life, never had any problems so far.
You don't let the water run for a bit before drinking it?
I think it's safe to say many, many people don't do this.
If you have a water dispenser (through a refrigerator), do you fill and dump two glasses before getting yourself a glass of water to consume?
I hadn't got a water dispenser like that but I'd be really surprised to find that the internal reservoir and piping was made of anything except for plastic.
Some actually have coiled copper (it transmits "cold" better) - but almost all of them have a filter.
I guess I would. It seems dangerous not to for the reasons mentioned here.
I don’t, why should I?
You don't have daughters.
Most pipes get coated with minerals so you’re not really getting much benefit from the copper.
In the country I live virtually every house is plumbed with PVC. Works great and only fails if done extremely poorly. Of course, they don't run hot water through it. Most people here think it is bizarre to have a big tank of hot water at one end of the house (often the garage) that is sent throughout the house, rather than having instant hot water heaters at the point of use.
The efficiency of hot water heaters is actually surprisingly good. A modern insulated tank retains heat very well. And it's more flexible for heating options since the water can be heated slowly over time. You can now get heat pump water heaters that are more efficient than tankless heaters. [0]
Water heaters are pretty clever, in a low-tech sort of way. Technology Connections did a good video about them recently. [1]
0: https://livefreehc.com/blog/heat-pump-water-heater-vs-tankle...
1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm7L-2J52GU
Water heaters are pretty clever, in a low-tech sort of way. Technology Connections did a good video about them recently. [1]
0: https://livefreehc.com/blog/heat-pump-water-heater-vs-tankle...
1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm7L-2J52GU
In my experience 99% of indoor plumbing in new builds in Canada (US too I believe) is PEX, not (C)PVC.
PVC is common in sewage, drainage, and as conduit.
PVC is common in sewage, drainage, and as conduit.
PVC is quite common for water utility use in the US in the form of AWWA C900. I once said hi to the project engineer of a water main replacement project (he was walking around the site), and he waxed poetic about C900 pipe. It’s installed using crowbars, and the joints need to be externally restrained.
Those dinky 1” pipes in your house develop quite modest tension at 100psi. 8” underground pipes are a whole different story.
Those dinky 1” pipes in your house develop quite modest tension at 100psi. 8” underground pipes are a whole different story.
Whenever there are elevation changes for underground pressurized pipes there are usually cast in place concrete thrust blocks that take the load from the pipe and give more soil area to push against, minimizing movement. Otherwise you're just depending on friction.
But public infrastructure that wants to move is always scary conceptually
But public infrastructure that wants to move is always scary conceptually
I don't think I've ever seen PVC/CPVC pipe used for water in the UK, only ever seen it used for electrical conduits.
Most indoor water pipes are still copper but PEX is becoming more popular. Outdoor is now nearly always MDPE.
Most indoor water pipes are still copper but PEX is becoming more popular. Outdoor is now nearly always MDPE.
Huh. In the US, HDPE outdoors is somewhat common in larger installations and for utilities, and PVC is used for almost all landscape irrigation. Galvanized steel is still surprisingly common indoors and outdoors despite its near complete lack of redeeming features.
Indoors, fancy contractors seem to prefer copper and less fancy contractors seem to prefer PEX. Those fancy copper-using contractors seem to mostly mess up and use non-water-soluble flux, which is against code and is very much a mistake on cold water pipes.
Residential fire sprinkler pipes are almost always CPVC. PEX is permitted in most jurisdictions if the pressure is regulated, but almost no one uses it despite being much less fiddly than CPVC. (Commercial fire sprinkler pipes seem to be mostly steel (!). I don’t know why. It always seems like a dubious idea to me.)
Indoors, fancy contractors seem to prefer copper and less fancy contractors seem to prefer PEX. Those fancy copper-using contractors seem to mostly mess up and use non-water-soluble flux, which is against code and is very much a mistake on cold water pipes.
Residential fire sprinkler pipes are almost always CPVC. PEX is permitted in most jurisdictions if the pressure is regulated, but almost no one uses it despite being much less fiddly than CPVC. (Commercial fire sprinkler pipes seem to be mostly steel (!). I don’t know why. It always seems like a dubious idea to me.)
Landscape irrigation isn't that common in a domestic setting here. We get plenty of rain normally, but in the (increasingly common) periods of drought, most people just let their lawns dry out and manually water the flowers.
Domestic fire sprinklers are also, sadly, quite uncommon. They've started to become more common in flats, particularly since Grenfell, but still, I've never had cause to touch the pipework for one. Fire safety in the UK is pretty poor compared to the USA.
Copper has has been the dominant form of indoor plumbing for ages here, so every plumber knows how to work with it. It's still seen as the preferred option, and most people, myself included, consider PEX as a cheap alternative. As far as joints go, compression fit seems to maybe be more popular now than soldering for domestic plumbers due to speed of installation, but I personally prefer soldering as I've had bad luck with compression fittings developing weeps after years. Push fit has been making some inroads - but I wouldn't trust it myself!
Domestic fire sprinklers are also, sadly, quite uncommon. They've started to become more common in flats, particularly since Grenfell, but still, I've never had cause to touch the pipework for one. Fire safety in the UK is pretty poor compared to the USA.
Copper has has been the dominant form of indoor plumbing for ages here, so every plumber knows how to work with it. It's still seen as the preferred option, and most people, myself included, consider PEX as a cheap alternative. As far as joints go, compression fit seems to maybe be more popular now than soldering for domestic plumbers due to speed of installation, but I personally prefer soldering as I've had bad luck with compression fittings developing weeps after years. Push fit has been making some inroads - but I wouldn't trust it myself!
John Guest has been making what seem to be very nice push-to-connect fittings in the UK for a long time. I’ve only used the US versions, and I’ve never seen one fail. If you avoid putting bending stress on them, they seem quite secure.
John Guest also has some very nice “ProLock” build-your-own-manifold fittings.
For what it’s worth, there are a couple of applications for which plastic or stainless steel are the only credible choices. Carbonated water is dangerous when in contact with copper or brass, and boiler condensate (which is basically carbonated water) will rapidly destroy copper or brass. So your boiler condensate drainage system generally ought to be made entirely of plastic.
I’ve personally had some rather impressive failures of copper pipe due, I think, to aggressive water at excessive velocity. Copper’s ability to resist corrosion is finicky.
John Guest also has some very nice “ProLock” build-your-own-manifold fittings.
For what it’s worth, there are a couple of applications for which plastic or stainless steel are the only credible choices. Carbonated water is dangerous when in contact with copper or brass, and boiler condensate (which is basically carbonated water) will rapidly destroy copper or brass. So your boiler condensate drainage system generally ought to be made entirely of plastic.
I’ve personally had some rather impressive failures of copper pipe due, I think, to aggressive water at excessive velocity. Copper’s ability to resist corrosion is finicky.
> Fire safety in the UK is pretty poor compared to the USA.
The tighter fire regulations in the US are a result of building everything from far more combustible materials. Even so, the fire death rate in the US is more than double that of the UK, 11/million vs 5/million annually.
Living in California it's probably a good thing my home is made of wood rather than bricks if there is ever an earthquake, but coming from the UK it all seems a bit flimsy!
The tighter fire regulations in the US are a result of building everything from far more combustible materials. Even so, the fire death rate in the US is more than double that of the UK, 11/million vs 5/million annually.
Living in California it's probably a good thing my home is made of wood rather than bricks if there is ever an earthquake, but coming from the UK it all seems a bit flimsy!
> (Commercial fire sprinkler pipes seem to be mostly steel (!). I don’t know why. It always seems like a dubious idea to me.)
Because steel can withstand much higher temperatures than CPVC, PVC, or Pex, by at least an order of magnitude, not to mention withstand much higher water pressure too.
Because steel can withstand much higher temperatures than CPVC, PVC, or Pex, by at least an order of magnitude, not to mention withstand much higher water pressure too.
And also commercial fire pipes are often dry (they're pressurized with air or carbon dioxide, and when the sprinkler glass breaks, then the water flows in).
Commercial fire sprinkler pipes are steel because it has a high melting point, it’s durable, and it’s less expensive than copper or brass. The water pressure in a fire sprinkler system can be 100-200 psi.
Irrigation is PVC in parts of the US, but black poly in others. I’m in New England where black poly is much more common (as it’s somewhat more freeze breakage resistant, even though we still blow them out). PVC is more common in areas with mild winters.
Making cool stuff out of cheap materials is great, but as I understand it, PVC itself is nasty stuff (even compared with other plastics) that we should probably be avoiding if we can.
I'm not sure what would work as a good general-purpose replacement for PVC for making things out of though. I'm not sure if ABS is available in the narrow diameters that PVC is. Pex is more bendy. Bamboo is strong, but not uniform. Wooden dowels or aluminum tube could work for some things, but it'd be more expensive.
I'm not sure what would work as a good general-purpose replacement for PVC for making things out of though. I'm not sure if ABS is available in the narrow diameters that PVC is. Pex is more bendy. Bamboo is strong, but not uniform. Wooden dowels or aluminum tube could work for some things, but it'd be more expensive.
We can wax on about what plastic would be ideal, but ultimately this is about making things from stuff you can find at a local hardware store.
So rather than go down this path, the way to go is to lobby hardware stores to carry "better" (by whatever metrics your judging PVC). It's not like we, as average humans, have unlimited choices in building materials. We choose from what's available at the store. PVC is at the store now.
So rather than go down this path, the way to go is to lobby hardware stores to carry "better" (by whatever metrics your judging PVC). It's not like we, as average humans, have unlimited choices in building materials. We choose from what's available at the store. PVC is at the store now.
Well yeah, that's kind of why I brought it up. PVC is cheap, available, and easy to use. Is there some other material that could replace PVC but made from less environmentally undesirable materials? Is it available at hardware store? If not, could it be?
Wood. Most, not all, of the examples from the page would have been equally easy and cheap to build with a set of rods or 2x2 beams. Looks a lot less tacky too.
Awesome example, also bamboo depending on where in the world you are
If you have a suggestion I'm sure it would be welcome.
Generally, if there were a better solution we would be using it. If you know of one, you should share it with us.
If you don't, maybe work on finding one.
Generally, if there were a better solution we would be using it. If you know of one, you should share it with us.
If you don't, maybe work on finding one.
GP made multiple suggestions and personally I read their comment as “here are some ideas, does anyone else have any?” Not an indictment of people using this material or a statement that there must be something better and everyone must switch to it.
Your comment comes across a bit off-tenor.
Also keen to hear if folks on here have other ideas (before you ask: I don’t have any).
> Generally, if there were a better solution we would be using it.
If this were actually the attitude people adopted, literally nothing would improve ever.
Your comment comes across a bit off-tenor.
Also keen to hear if folks on here have other ideas (before you ask: I don’t have any).
> Generally, if there were a better solution we would be using it.
If this were actually the attitude people adopted, literally nothing would improve ever.
I agree, improvement is important.
There is a saying, "everyone is a mechanical engineer". As one, we consistently have to field this kind of question in design reviews, etc.
The question, in general, is why don't you invent a new material to solve that problem, the answer generally is we don't have the budget on this $100k project to ask DOW chemical or 3M or BASF to spend 10 years designing a new plastic for us.
So while I agree in concept, in practice it's not really a helpful question/suggestion.
The way we MEs have learned to answer this question is to say we made from the most appropriate material given the requirements and operating conditions, if anyone is aware of a material that we should also try then please speak up.
Almost never is there someone that speaks up.
The other thing is there is a huge difference between "material exists " and material is mass produced and available to the general public.
In this case, to compete with PVC pipe by making some new better resin, extruding it into pipe, then making it readily available on the general market so that it's available enough to write a guidebook on how to use it to make stuff. That's a billion dollar investment.
There is a saying, "everyone is a mechanical engineer". As one, we consistently have to field this kind of question in design reviews, etc.
The question, in general, is why don't you invent a new material to solve that problem, the answer generally is we don't have the budget on this $100k project to ask DOW chemical or 3M or BASF to spend 10 years designing a new plastic for us.
So while I agree in concept, in practice it's not really a helpful question/suggestion.
The way we MEs have learned to answer this question is to say we made from the most appropriate material given the requirements and operating conditions, if anyone is aware of a material that we should also try then please speak up.
Almost never is there someone that speaks up.
The other thing is there is a huge difference between "material exists " and material is mass produced and available to the general public.
In this case, to compete with PVC pipe by making some new better resin, extruding it into pipe, then making it readily available on the general market so that it's available enough to write a guidebook on how to use it to make stuff. That's a billion dollar investment.
I don’t think GP was asking for people on Hackernews to invent a general purpose, greener alternative to PVC.
I think they were asking whether there’s an alternative that hobbyist could use for these types of projects.
For example, there might be a material that’s significantly greener and a bit more expensive — enough so that a large scale project couldn’t justify the economic costs (i.e. it wouldn’t be a general purpose replacement for PVC), but such that a small project hobbyist would prefer to have that melting in their garage shop instead of PVC.
I think they were asking whether there’s an alternative that hobbyist could use for these types of projects.
For example, there might be a material that’s significantly greener and a bit more expensive — enough so that a large scale project couldn’t justify the economic costs (i.e. it wouldn’t be a general purpose replacement for PVC), but such that a small project hobbyist would prefer to have that melting in their garage shop instead of PVC.
I understand that.
I dont think there is.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
I dont think there is.
Does anyone have any suggestions?
The two best suggestions that have come up elsewhere here:
Wood Bamboo
Wood Bamboo
Burning PVC is very toxic, but ABS is no better in that regard, nor are most other plastics with the exception of pure alkanes.
AFAIK the health scare is mainly around the plasticisers used to make PVC (very) flexible, but rigid PVC pipe does not contain any plasticiser.
AFAIK the health scare is mainly around the plasticisers used to make PVC (very) flexible, but rigid PVC pipe does not contain any plasticiser.
Is that true for PEX too? If so what's the alternative for piping?
I don't know. I think that may have other issues with the additives to make it flexible, but that's outside my knowledge.
The East Palestine train wreck recently was carrying a big load of vinyl chloride among other things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Ohio_train_derailment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_chloride
Maybe other plastics are just as bad, but it seems like not making stuff out of vinyl chloride if we can possibly help it might be a good move generally.
The East Palestine train wreck recently was carrying a big load of vinyl chloride among other things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Ohio_train_derailment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_chloride
Maybe other plastics are just as bad, but it seems like not making stuff out of vinyl chloride if we can possibly help it might be a good move generally.
Vinyl chloride (the monomer) is very different chemically from polyvinyl chloride.
It's apparently mostly used to make PVC though:
> "This colorless compound is an important industrial chemical chiefly used to produce the polymer, poly(vinyl chloride) (PVC)"
> "This colorless compound is an important industrial chemical chiefly used to produce the polymer, poly(vinyl chloride) (PVC)"
PEX is generally too flexible for these projects. I won't use anything else for fresh water plumbing though.
Don't forget all the various music instruments you can make out of them!
https://www.pvcfittingsonline.com/resource-center/diy-musica...
These are fun:
https://youtu.be/-0gED3rn2Tc&t=200
https://www.pvcfittingsonline.com/resource-center/diy-musica...
These are fun:
https://youtu.be/-0gED3rn2Tc&t=200
I have made many flutes out of pvc. Shakuhachi, bansuri, Ney, are all good to make in pvc. I have also made recorder style, using a shaped cedar plug on the mouth end.
Be careful when burning / process PVC.
https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/wp-content/uploads/legacy/Glo...
We use them to make swords. Cut some skinny PVC to the rough shape of a sword (they have four way interconnectors, so you can do the blade, guards and handle), glue them together, cover with a pool noodle and duct tape. Great swords, can't do too much damage.
TIL that PVC pipe is normally blue in Thailand. In North America it is almost always white, but also finds similar structural uses.
In the Netherlands PVC for sewer applications is gray. for ventilation applications it's usually white. PVC electrical conduit is a yellowed white.
Makes you wonder why the stuff gets dyed at all really.
Makes you wonder why the stuff gets dyed at all really.
Schedule 40 is white. Schedule 80 (thicker walls) is a darker gray. (I think.)
Colors vary depending on application. You can get sch 40 and 80 in white.
Just realized that no one mentioned potato guns. I used sch 80 for those. That quickly leads to using iron pipe with a sparkplug and a propane fitting threaded in though.
Just realized that no one mentioned potato guns. I used sch 80 for those. That quickly leads to using iron pipe with a sparkplug and a propane fitting threaded in though.
Don't use PVC for any pressure applications like potato guns!
Agreed. Had one blow up in my hands, which kind of reduced my enthusiasm for the sport.
When I was living in Thailand, during the weekends I volunteered for an organisation that would make carts using PVC pipes for dogs who could not walk. Those PVC pipes are crazy resilient!
To not highlight the power of heating PVC pipe to conform into any shape you want is to kind of miss half the PVC story.
You can do without unions altogether by just heating one end enough to flare it, then slide the other pipe into the flare while heating more to let it conform and produce a union lap joint in-situ.
Mastering heating is key to avoiding wasting money on tons of adapters which rarely even produce exactly what you want.
You can do without unions altogether by just heating one end enough to flare it, then slide the other pipe into the flare while heating more to let it conform and produce a union lap joint in-situ.
Mastering heating is key to avoiding wasting money on tons of adapters which rarely even produce exactly what you want.
It's a useful technique, but part of the fun of PVC is the limited degrees of freedom. It's like autocorrect in real life!
It tends to not produce very nice looking results because it's mostly right angles, but that's doesn't matter as much if you're using it as a frame and keeping it hidden.
3D printing also greatly expands the possibilities of pipe.
It tends to not produce very nice looking results because it's mostly right angles, but that's doesn't matter as much if you're using it as a frame and keeping it hidden.
3D printing also greatly expands the possibilities of pipe.
At $1-2/minute of labor, there’s a reason pros use the fittings.
> At $1-2/minute of labor, there’s a reason pros use the fittings.
This has absolutely nothing to do with "pros", we're not talking about plumbing - we're talking about alternative applications for PVC. PVC hacks if you will.
The amount of time you waste trying to find fittings that match your weird ass project in the disorganized and poorly stocked shelves of the local Home Depot you probably already could have had the thing done with just some careful application of heat. You often end up with a more streamlined end result too.
This has absolutely nothing to do with "pros", we're not talking about plumbing - we're talking about alternative applications for PVC. PVC hacks if you will.
The amount of time you waste trying to find fittings that match your weird ass project in the disorganized and poorly stocked shelves of the local Home Depot you probably already could have had the thing done with just some careful application of heat. You often end up with a more streamlined end result too.
One more: PVC bike rack.
I bought a ratcheting PVC cutter and honestly am not sure if I would have been able to complete the project without it.
One note: most instructions suggested doing a “dry fit” but I found that the pipes slid into the connectors much farther once they had PVC glue on them. Not a big deal, but everything ended up smaller than planned as a result.
I bought a ratcheting PVC cutter and honestly am not sure if I would have been able to complete the project without it.
One note: most instructions suggested doing a “dry fit” but I found that the pipes slid into the connectors much farther once they had PVC glue on them. Not a big deal, but everything ended up smaller than planned as a result.
You can quickly sand the ends by grappling them with sandpaper in your hand and twisting/squeezing. This reduces the size and modifies the texture, allowing them to assemble and disassemble easier.
I like to be able to disassemble my creations so I dry fit and then bury a self tapping stainless screw through adjoining pieces instead of using glue.
I like to be able to disassemble my creations so I dry fit and then bury a self tapping stainless screw through adjoining pieces instead of using glue.
Speaking of bikes I use a PVC pipe to set the crown race on my bike forks. If you get the right size it’s perfect for pounding them on.
I thought PVC leached chemicals in the drinking water case?
Also, curtain rods.
I don't see that listed but I used 3 PVC pipes and two 45-degree PVC couplings for about 5 years as a curtain rod above a bay window in my breakfast nook.
I painted them black and glued a finial on each end to disguise it. Nobody ever noticed, which is quite disappointing.
I don't see that listed but I used 3 PVC pipes and two 45-degree PVC couplings for about 5 years as a curtain rod above a bay window in my breakfast nook.
I painted them black and glued a finial on each end to disguise it. Nobody ever noticed, which is quite disappointing.
Does the paint handle some friction?
Ok, that part wasn't too great actually. I guess you could put some clear finish over the paint to help protect it.
Why paint it at all? If it's a curtain rod that uses moving rings the friction is almost entirely at the top. Just apply some painter's tape at the top when painting it.
If you do want to paint it spray paint gives great results, but make sure to use plastic primer. To make it even sturdier apply a clear coat spray paint over the colored spray paint you use (so 3 layers: primer, paint, clear coat).
If you do want to paint it spray paint gives great results, but make sure to use plastic primer. To make it even sturdier apply a clear coat spray paint over the colored spray paint you use (so 3 layers: primer, paint, clear coat).
It is also a great material to build the frame of various kinds of antennae for SDR uses.
That hipster game controller by the same guy is awesome!
https://tomtilley.net/projects/hipster-controller/
https://tomtilley.net/projects/hipster-controller/
Another “do anything” material is 80/20 which is aluminum bars you can bolt together to make tons of different structures.
https://8020.net/
https://8020.net/
We could have had an internet like this.
I know you're talking about indie content and decentralization, but all I can think about is an Internet constructed of a series of tubes-- blue PVC tubes.
You can make a far more powerful shooter using propane / butane and a tennis ball.
And more dangerous!
Can also store balls in pressurised pipe to keep them bouncy for longer.
And more dangerous!
Can also store balls in pressurised pipe to keep them bouncy for longer.
A potato cannon. With hair spray re-packaged as Susie's Special somethin'. It was a Christmas present from my husband. Best gift ever!!!
They missed the most prevalent everyday use of water pipes (except for their originally intended use cases maybe...):
<https://www.country-reiten.de/magazin/tipps-tricks/112-klein...>
<https://www.country-reiten.de/magazin/tipps-tricks/112-klein...>
Fencing weapon sheaths (sabre, epée or foil).
I love this stuff. It's amazing how many different sorts of construction materials you can get for cheap at a modern hardware store. I just wish I knew more about what's available, I'm sure there's a lot of customized home hacks that would be easy to rig up.
I built a bird feeder similar to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1F4wdJSEVEo only I used clear polycarbonate for the body which allowed me to see the level of bird seed remaining.
PVC pipe uses pretty much remind me of a modern day stone soup https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Soup
Not as cool as some of the uses here, but we often use 350 PVC pipes in clients houses as laundry chutes. Best thing is the clean transitions which prevent stuff from getting stuck inside (except children, so make sure to keep these at a reasonable height).
This guy make music instruments in PVC https://www.youtube.com/@NicolasBras/videos (later videos are in english but the first ones were in french)
I made a vocal booth out of PVC. Easy and cheap way to build a small, lightweight structure.
Best use I’ve ever found was a wall mounted fishing rod holder. Takes a bit of work to get the lip opening just right to match your rod side (if you’re a perfectionist), but final product is the pinnacle of functional efficiency.
After stumbling upon this, I’ve been obsessively looking for an excuse to drill a well[0].
https://drillyourownwell.com/
https://drillyourownwell.com/
When I was working in construction (electrical) we would “predrill” our grounding rods about 75% the length using this method. These are normally 1/2-inch diameter, 8ft long rods that must be driven via rotary hammer but the bedrock being so close to the surface and Sacramento valley riverbed clay density was just too much sometimes for the hammer.
Makes a sweet didgeridoo. Maybe put some silicone caulk on the mouthhole.
PVC pipe is a popular material for making archery bows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdyJB0O3fSQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdyJB0O3fSQ
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My math teacher put a pvc pipe in a pool noodle and would slam it on student’s desks when they were caught dozing off
Hope someone else remembers who that was too
Hope someone else remembers who that was too
History teacher preferred either iron pipe on the floor or hammers on his metal desk.
The spatially adjacent classrooms never failed to detect when someone was dozing.
The spatially adjacent classrooms never failed to detect when someone was dozing.
Missing: every budget Warhammer/Vampire: Dark Ages LARP weapon in 2000-10s Poland. (speaking from my personal experience here)
one more: PVC pipe percussion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iC-jl4INaNI
Edit: also mentioned by user "nomel" in this same thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37530235
Edit: also mentioned by user "nomel" in this same thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37530235
Have also seen people make sleeping platforms out of schedule 40 PVC, for sleeping in the back of a car.
The only problem with PVC pipe is, it's brittle. And over time, it gets more brittle.
Also, it's almost never recycled.
An awful lot of things I see people doing with PVC pipe, and it's not very good at it, would be much better done with wood, which nature already understands how to process when you're done with it.
An awful lot of things I see people doing with PVC pipe, and it's not very good at it, would be much better done with wood, which nature already understands how to process when you're done with it.
this is the content i come here for
I made a face towel rack for the master bath after removing all the hardware from the walls
Hardcourt bike polo, the polo mallet.
This working excavator is rather extraordinary.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qam0DmWq_No&pp=ygUTcHZjIHBpcGU...