Britain's got some of Europe's toughest surveillance laws. Now it wants more(politico.eu)
politico.eu
Britain's got some of Europe's toughest surveillance laws. Now it wants more
https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-bulking-up-spying-regime-breakneck-speed/
131 comments
I moved to Denmark from the UK and I've loved it.
Public services are significantly and noticeably better (my doctor once profusely apologised to me that because of resources my referral could not be the same day he made it but had to be the next morning), the tax rate is lower (because of the Tax Scheme for Researchers) the government isn't spending its days on some War on Woke bs and I'm generally much happier. After a year here I've already purchased a home and am planning to stay for the long term :)
I have dual UK-EU citizenship which helped.
Public services are significantly and noticeably better (my doctor once profusely apologised to me that because of resources my referral could not be the same day he made it but had to be the next morning), the tax rate is lower (because of the Tax Scheme for Researchers) the government isn't spending its days on some War on Woke bs and I'm generally much happier. After a year here I've already purchased a home and am planning to stay for the long term :)
I have dual UK-EU citizenship which helped.
Alternatively, Eastern Europe countries might be an option. It's the same level of shit as the UK, but at least the cost of living appropriately reflects it.
hard to recommend a place that is better than another because surveillance has unequal distribution so time is never in your favor.
Countries that have progressed rapidly in their digital transformation are also (generally speaking) further down in their transformation into a "control society".
So wherever you go (and unless you chose to start from scratch living on your own farm) it's impossible to escape for very long.
Another thing to take into account, is whether legislation has also transformed itself in favor of civil rights during the same time. But can only happen as a second step, and much slower (law when applied needs precedent). Odds that civil rights transform equally fast and fair immediately are nil (and in favor of more tech and more surveillance).
To "get out" (if there is such a thing) one would have to move to a place that is far behind in that regard (and even here YMMV because some poor countries transform into control societies ling before they are digitally transformed).
Countries that have progressed rapidly in their digital transformation are also (generally speaking) further down in their transformation into a "control society".
So wherever you go (and unless you chose to start from scratch living on your own farm) it's impossible to escape for very long.
Another thing to take into account, is whether legislation has also transformed itself in favor of civil rights during the same time. But can only happen as a second step, and much slower (law when applied needs precedent). Odds that civil rights transform equally fast and fair immediately are nil (and in favor of more tech and more surveillance).
To "get out" (if there is such a thing) one would have to move to a place that is far behind in that regard (and even here YMMV because some poor countries transform into control societies ling before they are digitally transformed).
>rising inequality
Inequality has been pretty stable over the last couple of decades:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/872472/gini-index-of-the...
Inequality has been pretty stable over the last couple of decades:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/872472/gini-index-of-the...
I think in the last "which country would you most want to be annexed by" joke survey, the top UK answer was Australia.
Nordic countries are still relatively nice. And very receptive to "skilled labor" immigration due to the population aging fast.
We too are circling the neoliberal drain like UK but are perhaps a decade or so behind. And racism is rising rapidly. :(
I'm from a Nordic country but have lived in England. To be frank, in many areas it's a real shithole country, and I'd really not want to live there. Not as bad as USA but getting there fast.
We too are circling the neoliberal drain like UK but are perhaps a decade or so behind. And racism is rising rapidly. :(
I'm from a Nordic country but have lived in England. To be frank, in many areas it's a real shithole country, and I'd really not want to live there. Not as bad as USA but getting there fast.
>> And racism is rising rapidly
>> To be frank, in many areas it's a real shithole country
Thanks to Trump, the term "shithole country" has now been termed as a dogwhistle for racists, so I'm genuinely curious as to what you mean when you're calling certain parts of England a shithole?
Thanks to Trump, the term "shithole country" has now been termed as a dogwhistle for racists, so I'm genuinely curious as to what you mean when you're calling certain parts of England a shithole?
People who don't live in the US won't be up-to-date with American slang, especially if they don't live in an English-speaking country. It means the country is a shithole: "A very dirty, poor, and unpleasant place" [1].
Britain's infrastructure is noticeably decaying — potholed roads, buildings in a poor state of repair (let alone well-insulated etc), litter, old buses and trains, homeless people sleeping on the street. There's more of this the further one travels from London.
[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shithole
Britain's infrastructure is noticeably decaying — potholed roads, buildings in a poor state of repair (let alone well-insulated etc), litter, old buses and trains, homeless people sleeping on the street. There's more of this the further one travels from London.
[1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shithole
That's a bold assertion. You can't just claim that random things a person allegedly says is racist just because he said it (much like the moral panic about the "OK" signal regularly used by divers).
I'm not asserting anything, I'm just using my eyes: https://www.google.com/search?q=shithole+countries
What a broad spectrum of political views in those news sources listed.
I've heard this term being used (and I have used it myself) as a dog-whistle to signal how racist others are that are using it.
so if one says Britain (the US, or some other place that used to do very well) is turning into a s-hole country the message and accuse goes right back at them. In this case the (racist[1]) Brits who pushed for Brexit, and by doing so have transformed themselves into a s-hole country.
in that case it is still a dog-whistle for racists but the tune that is produced is 100% an insult against the people who deserve to hear it.
[1] ... "to be absolutely clear it wasn't just racists who voted for Brexit. C'nts did as well! -- Stewart Lee
so if one says Britain (the US, or some other place that used to do very well) is turning into a s-hole country the message and accuse goes right back at them. In this case the (racist[1]) Brits who pushed for Brexit, and by doing so have transformed themselves into a s-hole country.
in that case it is still a dog-whistle for racists but the tune that is produced is 100% an insult against the people who deserve to hear it.
[1] ... "to be absolutely clear it wasn't just racists who voted for Brexit. C'nts did as well! -- Stewart Lee
I'm very well aware of this, but I'm reappropriating it to refer to true shitholes like USA and UK that even with their massive wealth manage to have a lot of suffering.
You'll move along much faster in understanding people from diverse cultures if you don't start by imposing your own country's uniquely absurd cultural biases on widely used phrases that probably have nothing to do with them.
> You'll move along much faster in understanding people from diverse cultures if you
Okay thanks for the advice!!
Okay thanks for the advice!!
"Shithole country" is also a summary judgement of a country's overall condition (GDP, safety, government, corruption, etc). That some pundits called it a "racist dog whistle" doesn't necessarily make it so.
What's actually racist (well, technically: "culturally imperialist") is to consider the provincial concerns of US internal politics as some kind of universally applicable yardsticks. People all over the world have used words to the same effect way before Trump and will do it way after Trump.
If anything, one could easily call parts of the US a "shithole country" regardless of their racial breakdown. In many parts of the word, locals will gladly admit it for the status of their own (whether racially homogeneous or not) country too.
What's actually racist (well, technically: "culturally imperialist") is to consider the provincial concerns of US internal politics as some kind of universally applicable yardsticks. People all over the world have used words to the same effect way before Trump and will do it way after Trump.
If anything, one could easily call parts of the US a "shithole country" regardless of their racial breakdown. In many parts of the word, locals will gladly admit it for the status of their own (whether racially homogeneous or not) country too.
But a lot of the UK is a shithole, and it's enabled by the right.
What is the current PC way of describing Swansea or Blackpool in American English?
If you asked someone who lived here, it would be shithole.
What is the current PC way of describing Swansea or Blackpool in American English?
If you asked someone who lived here, it would be shithole.
Probably means they're shitholes, because that's what they are.
That expression has been very common in the UK for decades with no dog whistle aspect and, as some one who lives here, there still isn't a dog whistle connotation ... the expression just means run down, dilapidated and a bit ... well, shit.
Remember Trump wasn't world president so not everything exports across the Atlantic.
Remember Trump wasn't world president so not everything exports across the Atlantic.
> Remember Trump wasn't world president so not everything exports across the Atlantic.
Why would you feel the need to say something like this
Why would you feel the need to say something like this
Shocking I know, but what Trump says and American cultural interpretations of it don’t really hold sway over here.
Pretty harsh descriptor, but I’m from the North and often have referred to my area as a shithole. It’s not the area’s fault, it’s 40 years of mismanagement and underfunding, but still not a good place.
Pretty harsh descriptor, but I’m from the North and often have referred to my area as a shithole. It’s not the area’s fault, it’s 40 years of mismanagement and underfunding, but still not a good place.
> Shocking I know
Is it? I just asked a question completely in earnest and it seemed to ruffle a few feathers. I thought Trump was the world's problem the last time I checked, oh, every media outlet.
Is it? I just asked a question completely in earnest and it seemed to ruffle a few feathers. I thought Trump was the world's problem the last time I checked, oh, every media outlet.
Finland is the country I've targeted for if I eventually want to leave the UK.
I'm from Finland, wellcome! People are perhaps a bit more withdrawn than in UK, but e.g. the sense of humor is very similar and I get along great with UK people. And about everybody speaks English.
And of course it's really fucking cold and dark in the winter. But at least it's warm indoors, unlike in England.
And of course it's really fucking cold and dark in the winter. But at least it's warm indoors, unlike in England.
> at least it's warm indoors, unlike in England.
Haha, that hit very hard after speaking to a home developer at how dire the building regulations are in the UK compared to the EU or even the US with the gov actively subverting better building efficiency regs.
Cronyism is rife in the UK, it's so open it stinks.
Haha, that hit very hard after speaking to a home developer at how dire the building regulations are in the UK compared to the EU or even the US with the gov actively subverting better building efficiency regs.
Cronyism is rife in the UK, it's so open it stinks.
How come -40 degree weather, hardly any sunlight, introvert culture, mandatory conscription, and looming threat of Russia doing something funni aren't a dealbreakers? I'm not sure I'd ever consider moving there myself.
Mandatory conscription only concerns male Finnish citizens under the age of 30. The more immediate concern is the Finnish or Swedish language requirement to getting your citizenship. You'll also have to have lived in Finland for 5-7 years before you're eligible for a citizenship, so if you're over 25 when you move to Finland, you can probably also forget about mandatory conscription.
> -40 weather
Once it gets below -20 it doesn't really matter. Also, saunas.
> hardly any sunlight
No need for blackout curtains. Don't see this as a minus.
> introvert culture
That has pluses and minuses.
> mandatory conscription
I think everyone should be forced to do some kind of service. Having a trained force is a good idea when faced with...
> looming threat of Russia doing something funni
I don't think they are going to invade Finland again anytime soon, and Russia can very easily be a threat to any country within ICBM distance.
Once it gets below -20 it doesn't really matter. Also, saunas.
> hardly any sunlight
No need for blackout curtains. Don't see this as a minus.
> introvert culture
That has pluses and minuses.
> mandatory conscription
I think everyone should be forced to do some kind of service. Having a trained force is a good idea when faced with...
> looming threat of Russia doing something funni
I don't think they are going to invade Finland again anytime soon, and Russia can very easily be a threat to any country within ICBM distance.
Saunas imo don't outweigh your car freezing up so it can't even start anymore and you can't do anything in an emergency.
> Don't see this as a minus.
You should try it sometime, getting only one half assed hour of sunlight a day would probably drive me to suicide personally.
> Russia can very easily be a threat to any country within ICBM distance
Well once those start flying it's all over so that's not really a consideration. Small things that don't make a NATO intervention worth it are the real problem. Wasn't it just on the news today or yesterday that they've been jamming GPS in the area? Nobody goes to war over one "accidental" stray missile that just happened to go off course during an "exercise" and blew up a few houses a few km over the border, like that one time in Poland. That kind of thing.
> Don't see this as a minus.
You should try it sometime, getting only one half assed hour of sunlight a day would probably drive me to suicide personally.
> Russia can very easily be a threat to any country within ICBM distance
Well once those start flying it's all over so that's not really a consideration. Small things that don't make a NATO intervention worth it are the real problem. Wasn't it just on the news today or yesterday that they've been jamming GPS in the area? Nobody goes to war over one "accidental" stray missile that just happened to go off course during an "exercise" and blew up a few houses a few km over the border, like that one time in Poland. That kind of thing.
> Saunas imo don't outweigh your car freezing up so it can't even start anymore and you can't do anything in an emergency.
Saunas don't really offset the cold at all, although they are nice anyway. Cars not starting up due to the cold is really rare nowadays AFAIU. I haven't owned or need a car in 20 years, so no personal experience, but I don't hear any complaints about it.
And it's not something you need to really worry about e.g. in Helsinki. In UK for example a lot bigger problem is that the traffic goes into total halt when it snows.
In general I agree that the climate kind of sucks (although the summers are nice). But this is an annoyance, not life-or-death stuff.
> You should try it sometime, getting only one half assed hour of sunlight a day would probably drive me to suicide personally.
The lack of sunlight does suck a bit. And if you're really suspectible to SAD, living up north is probably not a good idea for you. But most just get used to it and it's more like people complaining about the rain in the UK.
And you definitely do need blackout curtains (or an eyemask) in the summer if your sleep is sensitive to light, so it's not really a pro. Most get used to it though.
> Well once those start flying it's all over so that's not really a consideration. Small things that don't make a NATO intervention worth it are the real problem.
Regarding the current situation, Finland is further from Ukraine than e.g. Turkey, so a stray missile from there is obviously just not gonna happen. And even if it did, a stray missile is almost certainly not gonna have much casualties in the bigger picture. Everyday risks are magnitudes larger than such.
There's been all sorts of jammings and airspace violations for decades. They probably mean very little. Joining NATO did slightly increase the miniscule risk of war for Finland in my calculus, as Finland became a geopolitical buffer zone for NATO. Those tend to get the worst horrors in major wars (see e.g. WW2). But anyway you're a lot more more likely to get hit by a car or something than being a casualty in a war.
Saunas don't really offset the cold at all, although they are nice anyway. Cars not starting up due to the cold is really rare nowadays AFAIU. I haven't owned or need a car in 20 years, so no personal experience, but I don't hear any complaints about it.
And it's not something you need to really worry about e.g. in Helsinki. In UK for example a lot bigger problem is that the traffic goes into total halt when it snows.
In general I agree that the climate kind of sucks (although the summers are nice). But this is an annoyance, not life-or-death stuff.
> You should try it sometime, getting only one half assed hour of sunlight a day would probably drive me to suicide personally.
The lack of sunlight does suck a bit. And if you're really suspectible to SAD, living up north is probably not a good idea for you. But most just get used to it and it's more like people complaining about the rain in the UK.
And you definitely do need blackout curtains (or an eyemask) in the summer if your sleep is sensitive to light, so it's not really a pro. Most get used to it though.
> Well once those start flying it's all over so that's not really a consideration. Small things that don't make a NATO intervention worth it are the real problem.
Regarding the current situation, Finland is further from Ukraine than e.g. Turkey, so a stray missile from there is obviously just not gonna happen. And even if it did, a stray missile is almost certainly not gonna have much casualties in the bigger picture. Everyday risks are magnitudes larger than such.
There's been all sorts of jammings and airspace violations for decades. They probably mean very little. Joining NATO did slightly increase the miniscule risk of war for Finland in my calculus, as Finland became a geopolitical buffer zone for NATO. Those tend to get the worst horrors in major wars (see e.g. WW2). But anyway you're a lot more more likely to get hit by a car or something than being a casualty in a war.
-40 degree weather is very rare, especially in southern Finland (where the majority lives). Helsinki gets rarely to -20 (currently is though), but these few days you can stay indoors, or just put on enough clothes. Typically it hovers a bit under zero (which sucks a bit too due to slush).
The lack of sunlight in the winter comes of course with lots of sunlight in the summer (although that may have its downsides too if you're not used to it). I don't find the climate ideal but it's not that big a deal.
The conscription may suck a bit, but you can get out of it quite easily if you want, and it probably wont concern you as an immigrant anyway. And generally a conscription military is better for a country's stability than a professional one.
The threat of Russia is not a huge concern. And the overall everyday safety compared to most other countries vastly outweigh this minor risk.
I find the best part is that the wellfare state is still somewhat intact and things tend to just work. This really lowers the everyday stress compared to e.g. UK or USA.
Of course it's not for everybody but for many aspects it's a good place to live (although getting worse due to neoliberalism, like most places). This is probably reflected in that Finland is the happiest country in the world for six years straight now.
The lack of sunlight in the winter comes of course with lots of sunlight in the summer (although that may have its downsides too if you're not used to it). I don't find the climate ideal but it's not that big a deal.
The conscription may suck a bit, but you can get out of it quite easily if you want, and it probably wont concern you as an immigrant anyway. And generally a conscription military is better for a country's stability than a professional one.
The threat of Russia is not a huge concern. And the overall everyday safety compared to most other countries vastly outweigh this minor risk.
I find the best part is that the wellfare state is still somewhat intact and things tend to just work. This really lowers the everyday stress compared to e.g. UK or USA.
Of course it's not for everybody but for many aspects it's a good place to live (although getting worse due to neoliberalism, like most places). This is probably reflected in that Finland is the happiest country in the world for six years straight now.
Sorry, have not seen "very receptive".
Received a masters degree in STEM from a Nordic country. This somehow rendered me less desirable in being hired?
Living on the streets is not what I envisioned while signing up for an university program.
Received a masters degree in STEM from a Nordic country. This somehow rendered me less desirable in being hired?
Living on the streets is not what I envisioned while signing up for an university program.
I always feel more controlled in Britain than Germany or Switzerland, with the amount of "You should do this, You should not do that" messages all over the place, and thanks to CCTV, in the places I regularly visit I seldom see any car badly parked.
It was really striking when I came back (to the UK) from a short trip to Switzerland. In Switzerland, or at least the touristy parts of Geneva, orderliness, respect, and civility were assumed - and, at least as far as I can tell, followed. While I couldn't read everything (merely the psuedocomprehensibility you get with related languages), I only saw a single "behave yourselves" message. We discussed it at the time and our French speaker said that he had also only seen that one. In Britain there were multiple giant billboards about not harassing various people (mostly staff) before you even got to customs.
I'm skeptical of their effectiveness, and while I hesitate to make broad statements based on just a few days in a country it seems to me to be indicative of a major cultural difference.
I'm skeptical of their effectiveness, and while I hesitate to make broad statements based on just a few days in a country it seems to me to be indicative of a major cultural difference.
Although it's worth remembering the UK is still a popular place is "disappear" since it's doesn't have an overarching ID system like most Western countries, and the UK doesn't track people anywhere near as much as it's neighbours.
How does the tax authority keep track of who's dodging taxes? The fact you don't have the concept of ID cards is irrelevant if the tax authority still has an incentive to keep tabs on people (which it does in order to detect tax evasion).
You don't have to declare for tax purposes unless you go over certain amounts. If you do without declaring you may get away with if for a few years but they often catch people if someone gets investigated and they see bank payments going to someone undeclared. Then you get a bit of a bill for back taxes.
It's quite laid back compared to some countries though. They usually only come after your assets. Very few people go to jail.
It's quite laid back compared to some countries though. They usually only come after your assets. Very few people go to jail.
This still requires them to keep tabs on people and know they exist. So even though you may not have an ID card, HMRC still knows you exist and about your payment habits to be able to tell if something fishy is going on?
I'm not totally up to date but once you are in the system they keep tabs a bit and you have a tax ID number and such like. But for people not in the system, say come in from abroad or young and not involved yet they didn't in the past. I don't know if that will change and they'll make a database of everyone with a bank account and the like.
Some years ago I moved abroad for a while and then they'd kind of drop your records after three years out of the country. Now I'm not so sure.
Some years ago I moved abroad for a while and then they'd kind of drop your records after three years out of the country. Now I'm not so sure.
When I arrived in the UK the first thing I needed to do before being able to work is to make an appointment at some government office to get issued a national insurance number (which is like a tax ID) which every employer requires.
So while people don’t carry ID cards, everyone of working age definitely has this ID unless they exclusively work undeclared, off-the-books jobs. So I’m not convinced that the lack of ID cards is some meaningful privacy protection.
So while people don’t carry ID cards, everyone of working age definitely has this ID unless they exclusively work undeclared, off-the-books jobs. So I’m not convinced that the lack of ID cards is some meaningful privacy protection.
You'd have to try pretty hard to do that, because you won't be able to work, have a bank account, rent, or purchase a house.
We don't have an ID system but we have a lot of ID requirements.
We don't have an ID system but we have a lot of ID requirements.
My experience being controlled as foreigner for various kinds of reasons kind of differs.
Britain feels simultaneously strict and lawless. It's strange, but it's hard to imagine things turning out any other way in this country.
The US and other places can be like that too. Strict if you have something to lose, but not enough to protect yourself. Lawless if you have nothing to lose, or enough to protect yourself.
So bottom 20% and top ~5% to 10% are golden, middle 20% to 60% are hoping (dreaming?) to make it up a few deciles, and 60% to 90% are hoping to make it to top 10%. And until they make it there, they have to dot their i’s and cross their t’s.
So bottom 20% and top ~5% to 10% are golden, middle 20% to 60% are hoping (dreaming?) to make it up a few deciles, and 60% to 90% are hoping to make it to top 10%. And until they make it there, they have to dot their i’s and cross their t’s.
I deeply hate the "Welcome to the UK border" signs at airports. More than most countries, it's a first impression of petty authoritarianism.
I never understood the reason behind these messages, is it because they think everyone is dumb ?
In continental europe messages are meant to forbid stuff, it is rare to see a "mind the gap" message.
"Mind the gap" used to be played only at some 19th-century stations built on tight curves, where the gap between the carriage and the platform could be 20 or even 30cm. (The widest is 37.5cm.) That's a safety hazard, especially for blind people, so the announcements have existed for decades.
It's more recent that the pointless announcement has been made at many stations.
http://www.metadyne.co.uk/mind_the_gap.htm
It's more recent that the pointless announcement has been made at many stations.
http://www.metadyne.co.uk/mind_the_gap.htm
We can still wash our cars on a Sunday though?
Wasn't part of Brexit because they were angry at European governments having too much information. That they didn't like being under their thumb?
Hilariously, when I point out the hypocrisy of Brexit to people they never seem to grasp it.
"Unelected" -> Literally a monarchy with a sitting house of lords, which still includes some hereditary titles.
"Bureaucrats" -> One of the most paper/form heavy countries in the EU (Aside from Germany in some cases).
"Unelected" -> Literally a monarchy with a sitting house of lords, which still includes some hereditary titles.
"Bureaucrats" -> One of the most paper/form heavy countries in the EU (Aside from Germany in some cases).
Agreed. But it was Eastern European migration that turned the working class against the EU.
And it could be that diktats from "one of own" is easier to swallow than coming from "that foreign lot"
Ironically, Eastern European migration is what ran a lot of the low-wage, labor-intensive industries like restaurants, ridesharing, delivery, etc.
These industries have been decimated during the pandemic when the migrants (who mostly could still remain in the UK despite Brexit thanks to (pre?)settled status) decided that it was no longer worth to stay in a place that is not only hostile to them but now offers the same quality of life as their native country.
Cue the “nobody wants to work anymore” cries.
These industries have been decimated during the pandemic when the migrants (who mostly could still remain in the UK despite Brexit thanks to (pre?)settled status) decided that it was no longer worth to stay in a place that is not only hostile to them but now offers the same quality of life as their native country.
Cue the “nobody wants to work anymore” cries.
After Poland joined the EU, Poles acquired the right to work in some EU countries, while most of the members implemented transition periods. The UK, Ireland, Sweden and Malta allowed Poles to work freely without any limitations from the start.
So, solely a UK decision again.
So, solely a UK decision again.
Not that I'm aware of.
There was something about sending money to the EU for them to reinvest in cities in the UK which weren't London.
And more likely, the new AML laws that would have impacted our politicians and private companies ability to hide taxable income.
There was something about sending money to the EU for them to reinvest in cities in the UK which weren't London.
And more likely, the new AML laws that would have impacted our politicians and private companies ability to hide taxable income.
Why do the British put up with this? Are they just docile and subservient by nature? Did turning the old working class into an underclass eliminate the only political faction with balls?
The most immediate and palpable threat is the erosion of privacy. The notion that "if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" is a dangerously simplistic view that ignores the fundamental importance of privacy as a human right. Privacy is not about hiding wrongdoing; it is about maintaining individual autonomy, freedom of thought, and the right to a personal life unscrutinized by an overreaching state.
But the risks extend far beyond privacy. History has shown us, time and again, that tools created for one purpose can and often are repurposed for more sinister ends. A government, benign today, could transform into a malicious entity tomorrow, wielding these surveillance capabilities to suppress dissent, manipulate public opinion, and maintain power through fear and control. The technological infrastructure for a surveillance state, once established, becomes a formidable tool in the hands of an oppressive regime.
But the risks extend far beyond privacy. History has shown us, time and again, that tools created for one purpose can and often are repurposed for more sinister ends. A government, benign today, could transform into a malicious entity tomorrow, wielding these surveillance capabilities to suppress dissent, manipulate public opinion, and maintain power through fear and control. The technological infrastructure for a surveillance state, once established, becomes a formidable tool in the hands of an oppressive regime.
> History has shown us, time and again, that tools created for one purpose can and often are repurposed for more sinister ends.
Back in 2008...
"UK terror law used for Iceland deposits" - https://www.ft.com/content/55398517-1ea9-3248-8205-3268e037b...
Back in 2008...
"UK terror law used for Iceland deposits" - https://www.ft.com/content/55398517-1ea9-3248-8205-3268e037b...
I think one can even say that an authoritarian government is a more stable "state" than a benign one, and that due to entropy, all sufficiently perturbed governments decay to authoritarianism unless sustained by some external inputs. The input, in this case, being the activism of those who don't want to be surveilled.
[deleted]
You are right; authoritarianism is the default of states throughout history.
> activism of those who don't want to be surveilled.
The tricky bit, as with most UK law'n'order politics, and the rightwing playbook in general, is dealing with how people want other people surveilled. Fear of crime and immigration narratives drive a demand for "something to be done" and "more powers".
The ECHR is pretty weak against surveillance (https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/fs_mass_surveillan...), but it has been used in some cases to reduce it. But see how unpopular ECHR is in the UK - because it applies to humans, not just citizens, and there's a lot of people who want the state to be lawless against non-citizens.
The tricky bit, as with most UK law'n'order politics, and the rightwing playbook in general, is dealing with how people want other people surveilled. Fear of crime and immigration narratives drive a demand for "something to be done" and "more powers".
The ECHR is pretty weak against surveillance (https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/fs_mass_surveillan...), but it has been used in some cases to reduce it. But see how unpopular ECHR is in the UK - because it applies to humans, not just citizens, and there's a lot of people who want the state to be lawless against non-citizens.
This already happened in UK.
"if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear" is a good phrase to throw right back at politicians who have closed door meetings about surveillance, or anything.
"I've nothing to hide, I lost all my whatsapp messages when I changed phone" seems to be the common response.
It is such a hollow argument.
Anybody using "nothing to hide" arguments, go ahead and post your passwords.
Philosophy Tube episode on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCUTX1jurJ4
Philosophy Tube episode on this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCUTX1jurJ4
[deleted]
It doesn't work like that, because the justification they respond with is that if they make things public then criminals will know how to better hide their illicit activities. Or something along the lines of "we're having closed door meetings for the safety and security of the people"...
> right to a personal life unscrutinized by an overreaching state.
If it was just the state, then I might even be able to live with it, as my trust in my government is rather high, even if I do agree with your second paragraph on principle.
The problem though is that lax/non-existent privacy laws also allow Joe in marketing and his friends to do all kinds of creepy privacy-invading things, which I worry about much more. It fosters a mentality and culture around how to get the easiest to those who are most susceptible to whatever it is your peddling, and in today's day and age of social media I think it's fair to say that it's increasingly clear that that kind of culture isn't exactly a net favor for humanity as a whole.
It's probably naive from me but I'm honestly much more worried about big tech and their nonchalant approach to privacy than I am about dangers of my government going full surveillance state. The two issues are of course not entirely separate either, they're very much intertwined.
If it was just the state, then I might even be able to live with it, as my trust in my government is rather high, even if I do agree with your second paragraph on principle.
The problem though is that lax/non-existent privacy laws also allow Joe in marketing and his friends to do all kinds of creepy privacy-invading things, which I worry about much more. It fosters a mentality and culture around how to get the easiest to those who are most susceptible to whatever it is your peddling, and in today's day and age of social media I think it's fair to say that it's increasingly clear that that kind of culture isn't exactly a net favor for humanity as a whole.
It's probably naive from me but I'm honestly much more worried about big tech and their nonchalant approach to privacy than I am about dangers of my government going full surveillance state. The two issues are of course not entirely separate either, they're very much intertwined.
A good example is Venezuela, this was a car crash in slow motion. I remember the incremental changes made to law being reported right throughout Hugo Chávez' term in office right from the beginning. He was wildly popular everyone trusted him, many warned of its implications each time a law was proposed and reported. And here we are today, Venezuela is a dictatorship.
As the saying goes, it happens slowly and then all at once.
As the saying goes, it happens slowly and then all at once.
>as my trust in my government is rather high
Then you're very fortunate to live in one of the minority of places in the world where government is even moderately trustworthy. Many, possibly most people, dont and the tools of the surveillance state are increasingly being applied by their governments to further repress possible sources of change from that governing mean.
Then you're very fortunate to live in one of the minority of places in the world where government is even moderately trustworthy. Many, possibly most people, dont and the tools of the surveillance state are increasingly being applied by their governments to further repress possible sources of change from that governing mean.
Don't forget the press.
I had occasion to look up Chris Huhne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Huhne) as the energy secretary who kicked off the UK new nuclear programme, and right at the top of his wikipedia is .. the phone hacking scandal. Private surveillance by the press, which has been used for a wide variety of malicious gossip purposes rather than any kind of "speaking truth to power".
I had occasion to look up Chris Huhne (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Huhne) as the energy secretary who kicked off the UK new nuclear programme, and right at the top of his wikipedia is .. the phone hacking scandal. Private surveillance by the press, which has been used for a wide variety of malicious gossip purposes rather than any kind of "speaking truth to power".
>ignores the fundamental importance of privacy as a human right. Privacy is not about hiding wrongdoing; it is about maintaining individual autonomy, freedom of thought, and the right to a personal life unscrutinized by an overreaching state.
It's impressive how many people make this argument and then turn right around to fully support the full plethora of modern KYC and AML laws with all their dubious justifications and even more dubious applications with absolutely no sense of the double standard. One supposes that a rght to privacy, individual autonomy and a life unscrutinized by an orreaching state also should include these things applied firmly to ones financial life, at least enough that any larish transaction isn't treated as if it's potentially criminal right off the bat.
It's impressive how many people make this argument and then turn right around to fully support the full plethora of modern KYC and AML laws with all their dubious justifications and even more dubious applications with absolutely no sense of the double standard. One supposes that a rght to privacy, individual autonomy and a life unscrutinized by an orreaching state also should include these things applied firmly to ones financial life, at least enough that any larish transaction isn't treated as if it's potentially criminal right off the bat.
This is really bad, because we have the most corrupt government since probably forever.
Nothing is being done to investigate them.
It looks like government is simply bribing security agencies and giving them nice toys in a silent agreement "you don't touch us, we don't touch you".
That said, this is not sustainable.
Nothing is being done to investigate them.
It looks like government is simply bribing security agencies and giving them nice toys in a silent agreement "you don't touch us, we don't touch you".
That said, this is not sustainable.
I think it's wrong to say that nothing is being done to investigate them.
However there's a weird thing that I've witnessed. Large crimes are being ignored and instead non-crimes (or minor-crimes) are blown out of proportion. Then the investigations consume all the oxygen eventually sliding off the ruling party like water off a duck.
A rotation of cabinet, a new face to lead and all is forgotten it seems. Faith in the alternative parties is also shockingly low (not that I am a labour supporter under Kier.. but that's also kinda my point).
People would rather lurch even further right for answers, many people loudly supporting "Reform UK" which is the political refit of "the brexit party" and even before that was the "UK independence party"- a purely populist party.
HOWEVER.
The UK has been on the decline since 1992 (or earlier) and managing a nation in decline must be extremely difficult. Nobody is willing accept that they're poorer, financial services need the pound to remain strong so they keep the currency from falling which in turn makes everyone unable to afford to live.
It is a sticky situation with no clear answer other than to muck down and face the reality that if we want to be a wealthy nation again we either need to go back to exploiting other countries or produce things of value.
However there's a weird thing that I've witnessed. Large crimes are being ignored and instead non-crimes (or minor-crimes) are blown out of proportion. Then the investigations consume all the oxygen eventually sliding off the ruling party like water off a duck.
A rotation of cabinet, a new face to lead and all is forgotten it seems. Faith in the alternative parties is also shockingly low (not that I am a labour supporter under Kier.. but that's also kinda my point).
People would rather lurch even further right for answers, many people loudly supporting "Reform UK" which is the political refit of "the brexit party" and even before that was the "UK independence party"- a purely populist party.
HOWEVER.
The UK has been on the decline since 1992 (or earlier) and managing a nation in decline must be extremely difficult. Nobody is willing accept that they're poorer, financial services need the pound to remain strong so they keep the currency from falling which in turn makes everyone unable to afford to live.
It is a sticky situation with no clear answer other than to muck down and face the reality that if we want to be a wealthy nation again we either need to go back to exploiting other countries or produce things of value.
>People would rather lurch even further right for answers
God forbid we have an even more "far right" government than the one that has overseen a full decade of all-time-high immigration, has utterly failed to stop the years-long exponential increase in illegal boat border crossings, has swept under the rug the revelations of rape gangs operating in towns and cities all throughout England, has rolled out the red carpet for agitative gender and race activist groups to take root in every institution from museums to universities to primary schools to the civil service, ....
God forbid we have an even more "far right" government than the one that has overseen a full decade of all-time-high immigration, has utterly failed to stop the years-long exponential increase in illegal boat border crossings, has swept under the rug the revelations of rape gangs operating in towns and cities all throughout England, has rolled out the red carpet for agitative gender and race activist groups to take root in every institution from museums to universities to primary schools to the civil service, ....
I think we're more in agreement than you think; the difference is that I think that this is the nature of the right wing in the UK in general.
The issue is that the right wing will tell you things you want to hear and then either: not do those things, or they "solve" them in a way that cuts you off at the knees.
I'm not sure if it's a right wing thing in general but it's definitely something I see the right wing in the UK and US do a lot. Populism seems to be a lot about treating symptoms not causes, so if there's a migration crisis: lets make life so bad in the country that people don't want to live here!
The issue is that the right wing will tell you things you want to hear and then either: not do those things, or they "solve" them in a way that cuts you off at the knees.
I'm not sure if it's a right wing thing in general but it's definitely something I see the right wing in the UK and US do a lot. Populism seems to be a lot about treating symptoms not causes, so if there's a migration crisis: lets make life so bad in the country that people don't want to live here!
Are these the issues that are causing economic decline and the corruption of your government?
> Large crimes are being ignored and instead non-crimes (or minor-crimes) are blown out of proportion
As always: by whom? And the answer: the press.
The UK media are pro-Tory and far-right to such an extent that they quietly ignore all this massive corruption in favor of slamming alternatives down at every opportunity. The only exception recently has been the Mirror's dogged "partygate" series.
As always: by whom? And the answer: the press.
The UK media are pro-Tory and far-right to such an extent that they quietly ignore all this massive corruption in favor of slamming alternatives down at every opportunity. The only exception recently has been the Mirror's dogged "partygate" series.
Are the crimes being ignored by the media still being tried in court?
The PPE Medpro investigation is proceeding, slowly. A long way off court yet. https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/127/public-accoun...
Cash-for-peerages has been so normalized that there's not even an investigation.
(The court system largely works against whistleblowing in the UK, because of the very high risk and cost of losing a libel lawsuit even if you're mostly correct)
Cash-for-peerages has been so normalized that there's not even an investigation.
(The court system largely works against whistleblowing in the UK, because of the very high risk and cost of losing a libel lawsuit even if you're mostly correct)
Because agencies that are supposed to investigate are corrupt themselves.
Well...
>Keir Starmer pledges to clean up politics and crack down on cronyism
headline today. You never know.
>Keir Starmer pledges to clean up politics and crack down on cronyism
headline today. You never know.
The UK's energy use per capita has dropped more than 25% since 2000 (which to be honest is a pretty successful energy policy compared to what a move away from coal could have been).
It is interesting to compare them to Japan where the downtrend isn't anywhere near as marked and is potentially related to some change in energy policy related to 2011 [0].
It would be a lot easier to get people focused on stuff higher up on Maslow's hierarchy, like privacy, if they were warm, comfortable and could afford to manufacture stuff locally. Otherwise they'll probably need to buckle down for some internal strife, shrinking real pie could result in all sorts of weirdness. I'm not sure what the precedent is for a 25% drop in energy.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Japan#Post-Fu...
It is interesting to compare them to Japan where the downtrend isn't anywhere near as marked and is potentially related to some change in energy policy related to 2011 [0].
It would be a lot easier to get people focused on stuff higher up on Maslow's hierarchy, like privacy, if they were warm, comfortable and could afford to manufacture stuff locally. Otherwise they'll probably need to buckle down for some internal strife, shrinking real pie could result in all sorts of weirdness. I'm not sure what the precedent is for a 25% drop in energy.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Japan#Post-Fu...
Trying to crowbar nuclear in here is ridiculous; the UK has been a surprising renewables success, despite everyone's best efforts, and we're still waiting for Hinkley Point C to be finished.
> could afford to manufacture stuff locally
"UK manufacturing sector climbs to eighth in world rankings"
https://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/uk-manufacturing-se...
No, the surveillance stuff is pure elite politics and not driven by freezing pensioners.
> could afford to manufacture stuff locally
"UK manufacturing sector climbs to eighth in world rankings"
https://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/uk-manufacturing-se...
No, the surveillance stuff is pure elite politics and not driven by freezing pensioners.
25% is equivalent to going from an ordinary week to not having energy on weekends. Someone is getting squeezed. Change of that magnitude should tinge the interpretation of all social trends.
If I was an elite in the UK, I'd want to be going totalitarian too. Someone should be getting hopping furious; these numbers are comparable to unravelling-of-social-fabric events. Although ironically the totalitarians seem to be outperforming the UK economy; China claims to have overtaken them on a per capita energy basis back in 2020.
If I was an elite in the UK, I'd want to be going totalitarian too. Someone should be getting hopping furious; these numbers are comparable to unravelling-of-social-fabric events. Although ironically the totalitarians seem to be outperforming the UK economy; China claims to have overtaken them on a per capita energy basis back in 2020.
You can't just assert the link without some kind of breakdown.
But I agree that people are being squeezed. Energy and housing are becoming crippling costs. The social fabric is fraying. Attempts to blame it all on foreigners are running out of steam, but managing to promote violence along the way. Liz Truss finally broke something the middle class would notice: interest rates. We're due a Labour government which might start to address some of these things.
Not surveillance, though. New Labour were very keen on it too.
But I agree that people are being squeezed. Energy and housing are becoming crippling costs. The social fabric is fraying. Attempts to blame it all on foreigners are running out of steam, but managing to promote violence along the way. Liz Truss finally broke something the middle class would notice: interest rates. We're due a Labour government which might start to address some of these things.
Not surveillance, though. New Labour were very keen on it too.
I'm not asserting there is a link, I'm a step or two behind that, asserting that if we're going to consider any social change in the UK then it should be done in light of what is probably the biggest influence on living standards.
In the UK we see an economy with, y'know, substantial debt. A lot of their alleged assets at the national level are US treasuries which are unreliable stores of wealth [0]. Their ability to secure energy just cratered by ~25% from peak.
That is some pretty dire context. Then we have the elites - who are aware of these factors - pushing through extremely heavy surveillance laws. Now it might be that surveillance is cheap these days, but nevertheless the policy disaster that they've engineered needs to be considered as a factor. In their position I'd certainly be tempted by a rats on the sinking ship mentality and the lure of flirting with totalitarianism.
[0] With China apparently selling off their debt the UK is trending towards being the 2nd largest holder of US debt. Which is a bit risky given the US is likely to engage the printing presses in a big way.
In the UK we see an economy with, y'know, substantial debt. A lot of their alleged assets at the national level are US treasuries which are unreliable stores of wealth [0]. Their ability to secure energy just cratered by ~25% from peak.
That is some pretty dire context. Then we have the elites - who are aware of these factors - pushing through extremely heavy surveillance laws. Now it might be that surveillance is cheap these days, but nevertheless the policy disaster that they've engineered needs to be considered as a factor. In their position I'd certainly be tempted by a rats on the sinking ship mentality and the lure of flirting with totalitarianism.
[0] With China apparently selling off their debt the UK is trending towards being the 2nd largest holder of US debt. Which is a bit risky given the US is likely to engage the printing presses in a big way.
https://www.macrotrends.net/2549/pound-dollar-exchange-rate-...
The dollar holds its value better than the pound. US treasuries remain undefeated.
> pushing through extremely heavy surveillance laws
The thing is, none of this is new. We had extremely heavy surveillance in the 1980s (see Spycatcher, Zircon) and 1970s, back when British troops were murdering civilians on the streets of the UK. The UK surveillance industry always asks for more power. And it's consistently somewhat popular with the public.
(aren't you an American?)
The dollar holds its value better than the pound. US treasuries remain undefeated.
> pushing through extremely heavy surveillance laws
The thing is, none of this is new. We had extremely heavy surveillance in the 1980s (see Spycatcher, Zircon) and 1970s, back when British troops were murdering civilians on the streets of the UK. The UK surveillance industry always asks for more power. And it's consistently somewhat popular with the public.
(aren't you an American?)
No, Australian.
Less "heavy industry" and more insulation.
It doesn't have tough surveillance laws, it's got permissive surveillance laws. Tough surveillance laws would mean laws that were tough on the people doing surveillance.
'Toughness' of the law is defined by how harsh it is on the people, not the state apparatus.
> Tech companies are most concerned by a change that would allow the Home Office to issue notices preventing them from making technical updates that might impede information-sharing with U.K. intelligence agencies.
This is so shockingly shortsighted it's almost funny. Do the people writing these bills not consult with any technical advisors? I mean they somehow took the concept of a backdoor (which in itself is already a very bad idea) and somehow made that concept even worse. At least with a backdoor, a tech company could preserve some semblance of security to a system outside of the parties that have this backdoor access. Keeping exploits in is just egging on bad actors to find the exploits that the spy agencies have already found. I'm honestly speechless.
This is so shockingly shortsighted it's almost funny. Do the people writing these bills not consult with any technical advisors? I mean they somehow took the concept of a backdoor (which in itself is already a very bad idea) and somehow made that concept even worse. At least with a backdoor, a tech company could preserve some semblance of security to a system outside of the parties that have this backdoor access. Keeping exploits in is just egging on bad actors to find the exploits that the spy agencies have already found. I'm honestly speechless.
Destroy the cameras.
The news of ever increasing state surveillance, rising inequality, low salaries, privatisation leading to sewage filled waterways and the deliberate destruction of the NHS, revolving door cronyism and the weather contribute to feelings of dissatisfaction.
Maybe the grass isn't actually greener elsewhere(?)