Bioluminescent petunias now available for U.S. market(lgrmag.com)
lgrmag.com
Bioluminescent petunias now available for U.S. market
https://lgrmag.com/news/light-bio-to-introduce-bioluminescent-petunias-into-u-s-market/
196 comments
I see you're the author of Caddy, cool! Sometimes in Big Tech, this is a way to realize that some backend service is having issues because a proxy in front of the service is still returning a response. It's a rare failure case at most companies though.
Explaining 504s to the author of Caddy is a move, to be sure.
I don't mind; my initial gut reaction forgot what the 504 was about. It's also helpful to other readers not as familiar with the topic! :)
What's the point of being so snappy and not assume good faith? I was just saying that sometimes it's fun to probe big tech during an outage, see a 504 and see `awselb` as the user agent returned, and get some outside visibility into what's going on inside. I recommend everyone do it, it's fun! It's like using eclipse glasses to look at an eclipse or binoculars to see jets in the sky.
Isn’t that what the previous comment said? I don’t think HTTP 504 is specific to Big Tech.
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These plants remind me of the Cheshires from the book "The Windup Girl". Despite being scientifically impossible, the Cheshires illustrate unforeseen consequences very well. They are genetically engineered cats that can blend exceptionally well into their surroundings, like an octopus. They were made as party favours for an young girl's birthday party, but escaped and out-bred/out-hunted domestic cats to become dominant across the world.
There's a great critique of the lack of scientific rigour in Paolo Bacigalupi's novel, well worth a read if you like poor science being excoriated:
https://www.nyrsf.com/2015/10/eric-schaller-the-problem-with...
There's a great critique of the lack of scientific rigour in Paolo Bacigalupi's novel, well worth a read if you like poor science being excoriated:
https://www.nyrsf.com/2015/10/eric-schaller-the-problem-with...
Did himself no favors if the leading argument was that "20 years is too fast to replace a species." Like, fine? Call it a hundred and move onto a more damning critique. Only skimmed the rest, but several of them also seem to be making a lot of some off-hand flavor text.
Is it perfect? No, but I enjoyed the novel quite a bit.
Is it perfect? No, but I enjoyed the novel quite a bit.
As I remember it in the book, the genes were crispr-driven. Meaning ALL offspring got the new genes. So a modified cat having any offspring with a non-modified cat got these genes. So it's not really out-competing that determines the spread speed, it's outcompeting AND any and all interbreeding.
I remember that book; I think someone on HN suggested it when I asked for "biopunk" recommendations. It's definitely less bio than "Change Agent" by Daniel Suarez (which incidentally, IIRC, had more of genetically engineered animals for kids too) - but what I remember most about "The Windup Girl" is spring power. The book made me interested in mechanical energy storage and mechanical energy-based systems in general.
You might enjoy reading about the spring drive watch movements Seiko makes.
Meanwhile in real world we go completely opposite direction - degenerate munchkin cats
im not sure I want a lithe hunter stalking through my house, marking every surface and attacking everything that breathes. I much prefer my dopey dander machines that sleep on my chest, flop around on the ground chasing the pocket lint they dug out of my trashcan, and superhero-leaping off their tree onto the couch to wake the other one with a screech.
If I owned a farm and needed a ratter, I'd likely feel different.
If I owned a farm and needed a ratter, I'd likely feel different.
The best kind of cat is mentally disabled. Just sits purrs and chases random things
I don’t look for scientific rigour in sci fi myself.
And yet it can be fun, if you find it.
There's a whole subgenre of maximally scientifically rigorous sci-fi, it's great fun.
Sounds interesting, do you have some recommendations?
Dragons Egg by Robert Forward had always been one of my favorites. Asks the question "what would like be like if it evolved on a neutron star," and has 20 pages of his notes on working out the physics at the end of the book.
I remember one wit on Usenet saying that the strangest aliens ever portrayed in science fiction were the people in Robert Forward books....
Certainly the physics in the couple books of his I read was interesting but the writing left a lot to be desired.
Certainly the physics in the couple books of his I read was interesting but the writing left a lot to be desired.
I read Dragon's Egg and the sequel, Starquake, as a teenager. I remembered them being deeply engrossing.
I revisited the first one 20-ish years later in an attempt to get my partner interested. I only made it a few chapters before I decided to abandon the attempt. There are some really good parts (the science stuff), but the way the human characters' interactions were described I just could not get past.
I revisited the first one 20-ish years later in an attempt to get my partner interested. I only made it a few chapters before I decided to abandon the attempt. There are some really good parts (the science stuff), but the way the human characters' interactions were described I just could not get past.
The Martian, is the most accessible and interesting “hard sci fi” I’ve read. The RC Bray narrated version is excellent (and I think delisted). Otherwise, that’s your search term. I’m interested in more recommendations too some times the story is lacking in this genre.
Side note: very interesting writing process for the Martian, as I remember it, he developed it chapter by chapter with his readers who would critique it on his blog. Later books were not as good (after he was famous) but project Hail Mary was a turn around.
Side note: very interesting writing process for the Martian, as I remember it, he developed it chapter by chapter with his readers who would critique it on his blog. Later books were not as good (after he was famous) but project Hail Mary was a turn around.
But doesn't The Martian have a well-known scientific inaccuracy around the actual physical effects of winds on Mars - which is kind of vital to the plot?
NB I really like The Martian (and like SF in general).
NB I really like The Martian (and like SF in general).
I was like...mkay the wind was one time plot device. Bigger issue is that he seemed to grow potatoes inside with no mention of lighting at all? That was major omission for me, grow lights require plenty of energy and thus waste heat.
More damning would be the perchlorates found in Martian soil, toxic to most Earth-plants, not to mention Earth-humans.
Yes. The atmosphere is completely wrong. Ignore that and the rest is pretty good.
As for recommendations, I'd say loads of the books by Arthur C. Clarke. Try "A fall of moondust".
As for recommendations, I'd say loads of the books by Arthur C. Clarke. Try "A fall of moondust".
> Our Firefly Petunias are protected under patent, and as such, propagation and breeding are not permitted.
Lol, what a disgrace. Bees, are you listening? The man said no!
I really want to pirate this plant now. Feels like an obligation to the general aesthetics of life and the wider how of things.
Lol, what a disgrace. Bees, are you listening? The man said no!
I really want to pirate this plant now. Feels like an obligation to the general aesthetics of life and the wider how of things.
This is a standard message on flower novelties. In the 99% of the times, it must be taken as "commercial propagation and breeding" is not permitted unless you pay us royalties and we have a commercial deal, but each company is different.
I wonder what would be the color of this flowers, probably pure white, so by day would be indistinguishable from the other.
I wonder what would be the color of this flowers, probably pure white, so by day would be indistinguishable from the other.
> "commercial propagation and breeding" is not permitted
I think, legally, all propagation is forbidden, still. You'd become vulnerable, still.
Again, what a disgrace to claim existential control over life itself. They should be fucking ashamed. And we as people should not legitimize these wicked dreams.
I think, legally, all propagation is forbidden, still. You'd become vulnerable, still.
Again, what a disgrace to claim existential control over life itself. They should be fucking ashamed. And we as people should not legitimize these wicked dreams.
[deleted]
Go for it. Petunias are easy to propagate through cuttings. They get orders, you get a bunch of weird plants, win-win.
We can use this gene when we finally clone T. rex from the blood of a mosquito trapped in amber. It will no longer be the dark and ominous lurking horror of book and film that frightens children and adults alike. No, it will be the brightly glowing lurking horror that just kinda brings a smile to your face and can be the source of merch like children's night lights, safety-oriented Hallowe'en costumes, and all-night dance party fashions.
If we bred it into domestic dogs it would make nighttime walkies safer and midnight trips to the bathroom less stumblesome.
If we bred it into domestic dogs it would make nighttime walkies safer and midnight trips to the bathroom less stumblesome.
Poor dog... the glowin dog collars are perfectly fine.
Black cats have entered the chat
This is totally awesome. I would love to see these in person.
However, the one thing I really don’t like is this:
>Our Firefly Petunias are protected under patent, and as such, propagation and breeding are not permitted. These petunias are sold exclusively for personal use.
I think this is wrong, it should not be possible to patent life forms.
However, the one thing I really don’t like is this:
>Our Firefly Petunias are protected under patent, and as such, propagation and breeding are not permitted. These petunias are sold exclusively for personal use.
I think this is wrong, it should not be possible to patent life forms.
From the nature article linked above: "When asked whether Light Bio is worried about plant lovers sharing cuttings of the petunia with friends, Sarkisyan says that although the firm owns patents for the technology, it doesn’t plan to crack down aggressively on the behaviour. “The most positive way of dealing with it is to come up with new, better products,” he says."
Luckily it is quite easy to clone plants!
https://www.flowerpatchfarmhouse.com/grow-petunias-from-cutt...
I'm sure they will go after stores that sell them but for the home grower, buy one and clone away.
https://www.flowerpatchfarmhouse.com/grow-petunias-from-cutt...
I'm sure they will go after stores that sell them but for the home grower, buy one and clone away.
Technically (in the US) it's only possible to patent plants and I think legally yeasts are considered plants.
This is "to promote progress in the science and useful art of agronomy".
Not defending it, just stating what the law is.
This is "to promote progress in the science and useful art of agronomy".
Not defending it, just stating what the law is.
Order one glowing petunia.
Plant a cutting in the neighbor's yard.
Neighbor goes to jail.
Profit!
Plant a cutting in the neighbor's yard.
Neighbor goes to jail.
Profit!
I initially reacted to it negatively, but on thinking about it I realize that glowing plants are about as natural as polyethylene factories, so I get the logic behind the patentability, and can even see some benefits. Hopefully the patent will reduce the total number of these abominations grown.
Well where on that spectrum does honeycrisp apple or Maui gold pineapple belong?
Somewhere in the middle. Honeycrisp apples are a combination of naturally occurring genes, but they are propagated clonally and in fact cannot reproduce true to themselves. They'd never have arisen without careful cultivation, and (this part is important) another group crossing the same original cultivars as the developers of the honeycrisp used wouldn't get the same apple. So it's a combination that is unique to its inventors, rather than a patent on something anybody could do - and nobody will infringe by accident.
An example of a bad patent would be a patent on a process anybody trying to solve the problem would come up with - that's a needless restraint on trade - and an example of a truly horrible patent would be one on a human gene. Those existed until 2013, when the supreme court finally ruled against them.
An example of a bad patent would be a patent on a process anybody trying to solve the problem would come up with - that's a needless restraint on trade - and an example of a truly horrible patent would be one on a human gene. Those existed until 2013, when the supreme court finally ruled against them.
What you have just said about the Honeycrisp apple is true about all apples. That's how apple varieties have been created since the dawn of time. There's nothing special about Honeycrisp - they basically tried planting loads of seeds after crossing various trees with each other, did a massive taste testing and picked the resulting tree that won the lottery. Then that single tree was propagated by cuttings to make every single Honeycrisp apple tree in existence. But that's how all apple varieties are made.
Wasn't honeycrisp made with irradiated soil?
That's not mentioned in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeycrisp or anywhere else I can find.
> Honeycrisp apples are a combination of naturally occurring genes, but they are propagated clonally and in fact cannot reproduce true to themselves.
All apple cultivars are like that.
https://theconversation.com/how-a-few-good-apples-spawned-to...
All apple cultivars are like that.
https://theconversation.com/how-a-few-good-apples-spawned-to...
Seems arbitrary and liable to abuse due to the patent office gonna call it obvious to deny you the patent because the officer's friend has a similar patent.
The rule against a trivial invention already exists, but as you suggest, interpretation creates a huge amount of criticism for the patent system.
You could also argue that as honeycrisp were created by randomly crossing other varieties, and then picking the one appple with the most desireable qualities out of hundreds, this is not really patent-worthy as nothing was designed by the breeder.
The glowing petunias on the other hand were a proper invention, inserting a working, novel biochemical pathway into a plant is quite hard.
The glowing petunias on the other hand were a proper invention, inserting a working, novel biochemical pathway into a plant is quite hard.
On the other hand “Pirating bioluminescent flowers” sounds metal as hell
Have you heard about Monsanto? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#Legal_affairs
Apparently plants have been patented already for nearly a century, I didn't know that: https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2023/august/expanded-in...
But yes, its controversial, and for good reason. But so is most of IP law to some degree.
Apparently plants have been patented already for nearly a century, I didn't know that: https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2023/august/expanded-in...
But yes, its controversial, and for good reason. But so is most of IP law to some degree.
> it should not be possible to patent life forms
If you count plant patents as patents, then almost all commercially used asexually propagated plant cultivars are patented.
https://www.uspto.gov/patents/basics/apply/plant-patent
If you count plant patents as patents, then almost all commercially used asexually propagated plant cultivars are patented.
https://www.uspto.gov/patents/basics/apply/plant-patent
This is how rose breeders stay in business. They get the rights to profit off their work, time limited rights over the life form they created. Where it gets messy is people copyrighting stuff they didn't develop or breed, just what they happened to discover and analyze first.
> I think this is wrong, it should not be possible to patent life forms.
Consider that if they couldn’t protect their work, they never would have invested the money into making these and offering them for sale to begin with.
I understand why some might find it unpleasant, but the fact that these exist at all is a testament to why such protections are available.
Consider that if they couldn’t protect their work, they never would have invested the money into making these and offering them for sale to begin with.
I understand why some might find it unpleasant, but the fact that these exist at all is a testament to why such protections are available.
> Consider that if they couldn’t protect their work, they never would have invested the money into making these and offering them for sale to begin with.
That's a massive assumption. Plenty of other plants are sold every single day that aren't patented. There's zero reason to assume that they couldn't make a very nice profit on these plants without a patent. Just like every single florist in the country does.
That's a massive assumption. Plenty of other plants are sold every single day that aren't patented. There's zero reason to assume that they couldn't make a very nice profit on these plants without a patent. Just like every single florist in the country does.
I think they would lose nonethless, because they are specialized on genetic modification, and if there was no patent protection any experienced mass grower of petunias could undercut them by buying a single plant, cloning it, and growing it in large numbers.
Anyone selling petunias last year could have also undercut the next guy selling petunias because they were already selling basically identical products, no cloning step needed, but somehow multiple florists manage to exist and be profitable.
Those plants probably had nowhere near the R&D costs of the glowing petunias
It’s not, though. There is a perfectly viable market of seeds and such for non-biolumenescent plants. You can, in fact, plant watermelon seeds and use the seeds in the resulting watermelon to plant more watermelon plants. Crazy.
That's not really true for most popular high-performance varieties, most are hybrids and growing them from the harvested seed will lose the characteristics. That's why most commercial farmers buy from a supplier every year instead of saving seeds, and that's the reason for a viable market.
Commercial farmers also sign agreements to not plant harvested seeds. Monsanto has successfully sued several farmers for not complying with that contract.
> There is a perfectly viable market of seeds and such for non-biolumenescent plants.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to argue, but the patent laws aren’t designed to patent generic, pre-existing plants like generic watermelon.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to argue, but the patent laws aren’t designed to patent generic, pre-existing plants like generic watermelon.
How is that crazy? That's how plants work.
This is not a natural plant though.
This is not a natural plant though.
For this plant maybe, as they are pretty much a frivolity. Actual cash crops are another story.
Edit: it also seems that nontrivial engineering work was required to improve bioluminescence. It was not as simple as straightforwardly splicing in a few genes from a mushroom.
Edit: it also seems that nontrivial engineering work was required to improve bioluminescence. It was not as simple as straightforwardly splicing in a few genes from a mushroom.
https://www.light.bio/
"An improved pathway for autonomous bioluminescence imaging in eukaryotes" (2024) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41592-023-02152-y :
> Abstract: The discovery of the bioluminescence pathway in the fungus Neonothopanus nambi enabled engineering of eukaryotes with self-sustained luminescence. However, the brightness of luminescence in heterologous hosts was limited by performance of the native fungal enzymes. Here we report optimized versions of the pathway that enhance bioluminescence by one to two orders of magnitude in plant, fungal and mammalian hosts, and enable longitudinal video-rate imaging.
"An improved pathway for autonomous bioluminescence imaging in eukaryotes" (2024) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41592-023-02152-y :
> Abstract: The discovery of the bioluminescence pathway in the fungus Neonothopanus nambi enabled engineering of eukaryotes with self-sustained luminescence. However, the brightness of luminescence in heterologous hosts was limited by performance of the native fungal enzymes. Here we report optimized versions of the pathway that enhance bioluminescence by one to two orders of magnitude in plant, fungal and mammalian hosts, and enable longitudinal video-rate imaging.
The photo of the petunias in the article remind me of photos people take of their various tritium devices. It's always a long exposure to make it much more impressive than it actually is.
It's the same with ocean bioluminescence. Your eyes adapt to the dark and see it better than it looks in a normal photograph, but most photographs are "enhanced" as you say with long exposure times and/or increased colour saturation.
This is a bit misleading. I have several photos of my >2 years old tritium/phosphate activated accessories taken in twilight hours, or just after that, in which the luminescence is very clearly separate from any background light.(and directly analagous to the brightness level in real life. )
Perhaps you've seen in real life some that are much older/decayed? I have a bunch that I need to replace in sights/flashights due to this reason, they're just much dimmer than originally advertised.
(anyways, these flowers aren't phosphorous tubes excited by radioactive decay/emission so there's no way they will be as full spectrum'd/constant as the tritium vials I just described.)
Perhaps you've seen in real life some that are much older/decayed? I have a bunch that I need to replace in sights/flashights due to this reason, they're just much dimmer than originally advertised.
(anyways, these flowers aren't phosphorous tubes excited by radioactive decay/emission so there's no way they will be as full spectrum'd/constant as the tritium vials I just described.)
They have a video of it with people moving. I only saw it scrolling by without watching the video closely though. It does have the feel of some black light being used was my first thought.
Well it’s clear in this video that there is some mild foreground light. But also the shot with the laptop is interesting because laptop screens usually don’t go super dim, relatively speaking, and you’re still seeing a clear exposure of the plant glow and the laptop screen. They’re quite a bit dimmer than the laptop screen but if they were extremely dim the laptop screen would be noticeably overexposed.
That said I can’t get a clear read on it due to the foreground light.
https://youtu.be/5SfkWdkoKxM?si=X92failgjPMzIeFY
That said I can’t get a clear read on it due to the foreground light.
https://youtu.be/5SfkWdkoKxM?si=X92failgjPMzIeFY
Well they themselves mention up to 100x enhancement in original bio luminescence. When you start with something absolutely invisible to naked eye in pitch black even after some time, 100x ain't that much.
A nit, but:
> something absolutely invisible to naked eye in pitch black even after some time
Is it invisible, though? If it were, how would we even find out it's bioluminescent? And then, IIRC visual receptors in our eyes are sensitive to single-photon events. It takes a bit more for us to consciously perceive light, but not that much more[0].
Also, 100x enhancement is 20dB increase, which isn't little.
--
[0] - https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quantum/see_a_photon....
> something absolutely invisible to naked eye in pitch black even after some time
Is it invisible, though? If it were, how would we even find out it's bioluminescent? And then, IIRC visual receptors in our eyes are sensitive to single-photon events. It takes a bit more for us to consciously perceive light, but not that much more[0].
Also, 100x enhancement is 20dB increase, which isn't little.
--
[0] - https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quantum/see_a_photon....
The main problem is how to stop genetic contamination from pollen. Petunias are from tomato family. As far as I know, there is not cross pollination between both species, but maybe with the next species tried it could be. Or jump to native Solanaceae. Nobody wants this in their salad.
If there is something that terrifies me more than the capacity of Solanaceae to make sophisticated, evil poisons is to weaponize them even more with the superpower of fungus genes. The new pollen allergies could rank between "nothing to see here" and "next terrible problem".
If there is something that terrifies me more than the capacity of Solanaceae to make sophisticated, evil poisons is to weaponize them even more with the superpower of fungus genes. The new pollen allergies could rank between "nothing to see here" and "next terrible problem".
That isn't how genetics and plant breeding works? As an example; Chimpanzees, Gorillas, and orangutans are all in the same family.
More likely would be that these cross-pollinate with other petunias in someone's garden. Which is almost entirely not a problem, unless there is something about these genes that cause the plants to just be massively invasive and spreading.
But they're annuals with seeds that do not travel well, so mitigation of that issue should be relatively simple, even if it does exist.
More likely would be that these cross-pollinate with other petunias in someone's garden. Which is almost entirely not a problem, unless there is something about these genes that cause the plants to just be massively invasive and spreading.
But they're annuals with seeds that do not travel well, so mitigation of that issue should be relatively simple, even if it does exist.
That is not how plant breeding works. You cannot cross a tomato and a petunia.
> You cannot cross a tomato and a petunia.
As I said previously.
But if you use this product in an area with native Petunioideae (like for example USA), any decent consultant would suggest assure that this pollen will not contaminate wild populations because you are messing with 1) Genetics 2) conservation of nature 3) Pollinators, and there are a few bobby traps lying in your path
We could discover too late that the same gen codify for light and a 'surprise cadeau' that will accumulate toxins in the plant for example. Or that this changes the structure of pollinators in an undesirable way because they promote the contaminated genetics.
As I said previously.
But if you use this product in an area with native Petunioideae (like for example USA), any decent consultant would suggest assure that this pollen will not contaminate wild populations because you are messing with 1) Genetics 2) conservation of nature 3) Pollinators, and there are a few bobby traps lying in your path
We could discover too late that the same gen codify for light and a 'surprise cadeau' that will accumulate toxins in the plant for example. Or that this changes the structure of pollinators in an undesirable way because they promote the contaminated genetics.
I'm basically sold, and would have already ordered, but am I understanding correctly that what's for sale on their site is... one flower for $29? I could easily see myself dropping some money to have a glow-in-the-dark-garden, but it seems like at that price, getting any kind of "coverage" would be cost prohibitive.
Yes, yes, they can be propagated, but that's going to take a few plants if I'm to have enough to have more than a few odd glowing plants here and there.
Either way, this is super cool.
Yes, yes, they can be propagated, but that's going to take a few plants if I'm to have enough to have more than a few odd glowing plants here and there.
Either way, this is super cool.
It's not 'one flower' - it's one petunia plant. They grow 6-12 inches tall, and 1-4ft wide, with multiple flowers. It's like a small sprawly bush. From the FAQ:
> The Firefly Petunia is shipped as a small plant rooted in a 4” pot. As flowers tend to suffer in shipment, the petunia will arrive with developing buds. It may contain a few newly opened flowers. With good growing conditions, it will quickly attain about 8 to 10 inches in size with abundant white flowers.
> The Firefly Petunia is shipped as a small plant rooted in a 4” pot. As flowers tend to suffer in shipment, the petunia will arrive with developing buds. It may contain a few newly opened flowers. With good growing conditions, it will quickly attain about 8 to 10 inches in size with abundant white flowers.
Ah, ok, that's what I was wondering about. I was picturing something much smaller. That seems a lot more reasonable - still expensive for a single plant, but we are talking about something pretty unique.
It’s a pretty reasonable price for a specialty plant. Plants are cheaper at places like Home Depot but those plants are also sick and bring bugs in to your house that can infect your other house plants.
How easy would it be to propagate into multiple plants?
Petunias are close to an ideal plant for propagating, it's super easy. I'd bet it's one of the reasons Light Bio chose this type of plant to start out with, it's easy and fast to scale up if needed.
Example of propagating cuttings: https://youtu.be/eK5Ygp5RHTo
Basically, Create a fresh wound, hit it with some hormones, put it in some seed starting gardening mix, add some water, and then cover/protect from direct harsh sun so the clone doesn't lose water faster than it can take it up.
You can even propagate from the leaves: https://youtu.be/4_gsOwWQ6Pw
Do be aware that petunias do NOT like temps under 50 degrees, and freezing will generally wipe them out.
Example of propagating cuttings: https://youtu.be/eK5Ygp5RHTo
Basically, Create a fresh wound, hit it with some hormones, put it in some seed starting gardening mix, add some water, and then cover/protect from direct harsh sun so the clone doesn't lose water faster than it can take it up.
You can even propagate from the leaves: https://youtu.be/4_gsOwWQ6Pw
Do be aware that petunias do NOT like temps under 50 degrees, and freezing will generally wipe them out.
Just wait until you learn about tulips! I never understood tulip mania until my wife started planting them.
Tulips are annuals, so they only are expected to grow one season. You often order the bulbs in summer and they're delivered in fall, and then planted in early winter before the ground gets too cold. They're often less than a dollar per bulb, but if you've ever seen a nice arrangement, hundreds of tulips is not all that much.
The first year my wife told me she was spending ~$300 on tulips I thought she was crazy. That spring when I saw what they looked like I okayed doubling the order for the next year. It's really a delight to see spring announced by your yard exploding in beautiful flowers.
Tulips are annuals, so they only are expected to grow one season. You often order the bulbs in summer and they're delivered in fall, and then planted in early winter before the ground gets too cold. They're often less than a dollar per bulb, but if you've ever seen a nice arrangement, hundreds of tulips is not all that much.
The first year my wife told me she was spending ~$300 on tulips I thought she was crazy. That spring when I saw what they looked like I okayed doubling the order for the next year. It's really a delight to see spring announced by your yard exploding in beautiful flowers.
I have some good news for you! While tulips do not reliably come back every year, sometimes skipping a year, they are actually perennials.
I have even better news. They multiply too!
indeed! my first tulip plantings had additional tulips coming up several inches from where I planted them, as well as the original tulip bulbs planted. how did I know they weren't some random tulips? because I planted some very beautiful specialty bulbs I had never seen before, and that's what came up.
really looking forward to spring to see them all come up again.
really looking forward to spring to see them all come up again.
tulips aren't annuals where I live in California (Bay Area). They come up in the same place year after year and even spread a little.
Wait until you learn that some collectors of Galanthus (Snowdrops) have paid £1850 (~$2300) for one bulb of a new variety.
To most, they are simply the same green and white plants, but to some, they are quite the obsession.
[1] https://www.gardensillustrated.com/news/snowdrop-bulb-sells-...
To most, they are simply the same green and white plants, but to some, they are quite the obsession.
[1] https://www.gardensillustrated.com/news/snowdrop-bulb-sells-...
I'm going to buy one of these and take cuttings and root them. I have a indoor growing area so I could just keep taking cuttings and making a ton of plants. I'm sure this violates their TOS though.
From the site:
Can I propagate or breed the Firefly Petunias? Our Firefly Petunias are protected under patent, and as such, propagation and breeding are not permitted. These petunias are sold exclusively for personal use.
Propagation IS permitted as long as it's for personal use so your scenario is fine. Selling a propagated plant to your neighbor (or anyone else) violates the law.
Can I propagate or breed the Firefly Petunias? Our Firefly Petunias are protected under patent, and as such, propagation and breeding are not permitted. These petunias are sold exclusively for personal use.
Propagation IS permitted as long as it's for personal use so your scenario is fine. Selling a propagated plant to your neighbor (or anyone else) violates the law.
> Propagation IS permitted as long as it's for personal use so your scenario is fine.
How do you come to this conclusion from the FAQ answer above?
How do you come to this conclusion from the FAQ answer above?
Easy; "Our Firefly Petunias are PROTECTED UNDER PATENT, and as such, propagation and breeding are not permitted. These petunias are sold exclusively for personal use."
Patent protection is soley for protection from commercial use by non patent holders. This is why they put in the last line.
Patent protection does not stop me from building an equivalent of any item protected by patent. I cannot sell it commercially.
Patent protection is soley for protection from commercial use by non patent holders. This is why they put in the last line.
Patent protection does not stop me from building an equivalent of any item protected by patent. I cannot sell it commercially.
> Patent protection does not stop me from building an equivalent of any item protected by patent.
Legally it does, at least in the United States. That said, I doubt this company will search your backyard in the middle of the night to make sure you don't have more glowing petunias than you ordered from their website.
Legally it does, at least in the United States. That said, I doubt this company will search your backyard in the middle of the night to make sure you don't have more glowing petunias than you ordered from their website.
> Legally it does
Yeah, that's my impression of patent laws, too. It's not some weird open source license, where you are only prohibited from commercial use. I remember advocates of patents telling me how it's better than keeping inventions secret, but I think in practice, there really isn't much of a difference... The whole thing needs an overhaul.
> That said, I doubt this company will search your backyard in the middle of the night to make sure you don't have more glowing petunias than you ordered from their website.
You read this take all over the thread, but I really think we shouldn't argue like that, when discussing law. Thing is, if the company really wanted to, they could cause legal trouble, which means you are vulnerable to them - which shifts the power balance between civil entities. Somewhat similar to e.g. drug criminalization. You likely get away with minor possession, but if the police officer doesn't like you, you may suffer severe consequences still. For example, if you were to publicly criticize the company for whatever reason, you may have to make sure to not (ever) post pictures of your glowing garden publicly.
These legal vulnerabilities add up and may in total change your behavior subtly so people in power do not not like you. If you want to form a union, protest against the police, are black/gay/..., or want to publish dirt on your local politician, you better make sure you didn't take too many cuttings from glowing petunias somewhere.
Yeah, that's my impression of patent laws, too. It's not some weird open source license, where you are only prohibited from commercial use. I remember advocates of patents telling me how it's better than keeping inventions secret, but I think in practice, there really isn't much of a difference... The whole thing needs an overhaul.
> That said, I doubt this company will search your backyard in the middle of the night to make sure you don't have more glowing petunias than you ordered from their website.
You read this take all over the thread, but I really think we shouldn't argue like that, when discussing law. Thing is, if the company really wanted to, they could cause legal trouble, which means you are vulnerable to them - which shifts the power balance between civil entities. Somewhat similar to e.g. drug criminalization. You likely get away with minor possession, but if the police officer doesn't like you, you may suffer severe consequences still. For example, if you were to publicly criticize the company for whatever reason, you may have to make sure to not (ever) post pictures of your glowing garden publicly.
These legal vulnerabilities add up and may in total change your behavior subtly so people in power do not not like you. If you want to form a union, protest against the police, are black/gay/..., or want to publish dirt on your local politician, you better make sure you didn't take too many cuttings from glowing petunias somewhere.
I stand corrected, I believe they could get an injunction to prevent me from propagating the petunias (currently on order!), but likely wouldn't be worth the trouble.
$29 plus $24 shipping, so $53 for one flower.
Not quite, you can get 3 for $107 because it applies some automatic discount and shipping is not a linear cost.
I had free petunia plants last year in the pots the previous years petunias grew. No, these were not the same plants as they are annuals that got pulled in the fall. Never thought about them seeding themselves like that. Maybe that $53 plant can do the same thing so you get a second year out of it essentially halving the cost???
We love us some volunteers
We love us some volunteers
I very much doubt that these will breed true from seed
You could just root some cutting and put under a grow light and plant in the spring.
Isn't that the very definition of propagating the line which is protected via patent? I too doubt these would grow from a seed, but at least growing a plant from a seed is not patentable regardless of what Monsanto thinks.
I doubt propagation is enforceable either. They mentioned 'breeding' too, so they seem to have the same understanding as Monsanto.
It's really only enforceable if you attempt to make money from it or even just distribute it as your own to the point they find out about you. If you do anything to share the new plants that prevents them from making money, you'll be "guilty". If you do it just to fill in your backyard, they'll never find out about you.
[deleted]
There's a discount at 3 plants and free shipping at 10.
The successful version of https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/antonyevans/glowing-pla...
This looks pretty cool, let's see how it goes!
This looks pretty cool, let's see how it goes!
Anyone grow any yet I want to know what they actually look like. At 50$ a seed packet im a little cautious
Is it $50 for the seed packet or the actual plant?
It's for the actual plant. This is from the FAQ (taken from another comment):
> The Firefly Petunia is shipped as a small plant rooted in a 4” pot. As flowers tend to suffer in shipment, the petunia will arrive with developing buds. It may contain a few newly opened flowers. With good growing conditions, it will quickly attain about 8 to 10 inches in size with abundant white flowers.
> The Firefly Petunia is shipped as a small plant rooted in a 4” pot. As flowers tend to suffer in shipment, the petunia will arrive with developing buds. It may contain a few newly opened flowers. With good growing conditions, it will quickly attain about 8 to 10 inches in size with abundant white flowers.
29 for the product, 24 for shipping the product
Reminds me of the "lumiroses" from Margaret Atwood's dystopian MaddAddam trilogy. Although the roses are not integral to the books, the general theme of the series is taking bioengineering one step too far.
Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now.
This is incredible!
> Can I propagate or breed the Firefly Petunias? Our Firefly Petunias are protected under patent, and as such, propagation and breeding are not permitted. These petunias are sold exclusively for personal use.
Good luck to them with that. If these plants in real life are anything like in the videos, they will be grown and sold world wide in massive amounts and nobody will give a hoot about some patent.
> Can I propagate or breed the Firefly Petunias? Our Firefly Petunias are protected under patent, and as such, propagation and breeding are not permitted. These petunias are sold exclusively for personal use.
Good luck to them with that. If these plants in real life are anything like in the videos, they will be grown and sold world wide in massive amounts and nobody will give a hoot about some patent.
Patents are a major PITA even in home gardening and small-scale nurseries. People have to respect the patents because a lot of plant sales are online these days, through Etsy and stuff, and the company will sue the ever living shit out of you if they find out you are selling them, especially on any meaningful scale.
Some of the best tomato seed varieties are often patented, e.g. F1 hybrid sungold tomatoes (though reproducing those is also annoying because they are a hybrid and people generally want seeds.) There are groups[0] which try to make varieties as heirlooms (i.e. collect-and-plant) seeds that are copyleft licensed[0].
For another interesting example of recent plant developments, Norfolk Plant Sciences developed purple tomatoes and recently began selling seeds of them. Unlike other purple tomatoes (of which there are only a few) these have purple meat inside, incorporating a gene from snapdragon flowers, which also keeps the tomatoes good longer. They are patented, $20 for just 10 seeds.
Another small company, Baker Creek’s “Purple Galaxy” tomatoes, has been suspected of re-selling Norfolk's purple tomato seeds and recently stopped selling them due to 'low stock' (suspected cease-and-desist) - as a minor controversy in the gardening community last week, though allegedly Baker's Creek is a white nationalist group so YMMV on whose side you want to take there.
Anyway, plants are fun!
[0] https://osseeds.org/
Some of the best tomato seed varieties are often patented, e.g. F1 hybrid sungold tomatoes (though reproducing those is also annoying because they are a hybrid and people generally want seeds.) There are groups[0] which try to make varieties as heirlooms (i.e. collect-and-plant) seeds that are copyleft licensed[0].
For another interesting example of recent plant developments, Norfolk Plant Sciences developed purple tomatoes and recently began selling seeds of them. Unlike other purple tomatoes (of which there are only a few) these have purple meat inside, incorporating a gene from snapdragon flowers, which also keeps the tomatoes good longer. They are patented, $20 for just 10 seeds.
Another small company, Baker Creek’s “Purple Galaxy” tomatoes, has been suspected of re-selling Norfolk's purple tomato seeds and recently stopped selling them due to 'low stock' (suspected cease-and-desist) - as a minor controversy in the gardening community last week, though allegedly Baker's Creek is a white nationalist group so YMMV on whose side you want to take there.
Anyway, plants are fun!
[0] https://osseeds.org/
Outside the US neither individuals or companies care about patents when it comes to these kind of things. Sure, maybe a nation's largest plant company will respect the patents, but the local plant store won't. And they are almost the whole market.
> Another small company, Baker Creek’s “Purple Galaxy” tomatoes, has been suspected of re-selling Norfolk's purple tomato seeds and recently stopped selling them due to 'low stock' (suspected cease-and-desist)
I'm familiar with this, but it sounds like you might know more details. Do you really mean "re-selling"? I'd presumed that the accusation was that they were planning to sell a cross-bred plant that involved genes from the patented variety, but my search attempts on the tomato forums weren't very successful. Is there a better "inside scoop" story out there to be found or is it all guesswork at this point?
I'm familiar with this, but it sounds like you might know more details. Do you really mean "re-selling"? I'd presumed that the accusation was that they were planning to sell a cross-bred plant that involved genes from the patented variety, but my search attempts on the tomato forums weren't very successful. Is there a better "inside scoop" story out there to be found or is it all guesswork at this point?
Definitely all guesses and assumptions, I do not mean re-selling, just cross-bred (possibly accidentally) with a patented variety. My source is just comments from random gardeners in /r/gardening[0] and I don't have any insider info. Normally I would hesitate to play the telephone game on such topics, but given the controversy about Baker Creek otherwise I don't feel too bad about it in this case.
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/gardening/comments/1akcwog/this_loo...
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/gardening/comments/1akcwog/this_loo...
Thanks for the link, and sorry I forgot to check back quickly. Norfolk has since confirmed in a polite manner that the Baker Creek seeds included their patented GMO genes:
Is NHP's Purple Tomato related to the "Purple Galaxy"?
We have received many questions about the purple tomato marketed by Baker Creek as “Purple Galaxy” in their 2024 catalogs. We understand from Baker Creek that they will not be selling seeds of this variety. Given its remarkable similarity to our purple tomato, we prompted Baker Creek to investigate their claim that Purple Galaxy was non-GMO. We are told that laboratory testing determined that it is, in fact, bioengineered (GMO). This result supports the fact that the only reported way to produce a purple-fleshed tomato rich in anthocyanin antioxidants is with Norfolk’s patented technology. We appreciate that Baker Creek tested their material, and after discovering it was a GMO, removed it from their website.
https://www.norfolkhealthyproduce.com/faqs
Also, someone in your linked thread also confirms 1) they are not F1, 2) will breed true, and 3) personal and community seed saving is allowed. I already got my packet in the mail---now just need to wait for all the snow to melt!
Is NHP's Purple Tomato related to the "Purple Galaxy"?
We have received many questions about the purple tomato marketed by Baker Creek as “Purple Galaxy” in their 2024 catalogs. We understand from Baker Creek that they will not be selling seeds of this variety. Given its remarkable similarity to our purple tomato, we prompted Baker Creek to investigate their claim that Purple Galaxy was non-GMO. We are told that laboratory testing determined that it is, in fact, bioengineered (GMO). This result supports the fact that the only reported way to produce a purple-fleshed tomato rich in anthocyanin antioxidants is with Norfolk’s patented technology. We appreciate that Baker Creek tested their material, and after discovering it was a GMO, removed it from their website.
https://www.norfolkhealthyproduce.com/faqs
Also, someone in your linked thread also confirms 1) they are not F1, 2) will breed true, and 3) personal and community seed saving is allowed. I already got my packet in the mail---now just need to wait for all the snow to melt!
I'm sure if someone opened a commercial scale operation, at least in the US, they'd be able to sue, but you're right that as soon as it goes worldwide there's no practical way to prevent "piracy".
It'll be interesting to see if/how they try to lock it down genetically, I think it's possible to make the plants unable to produce seeds, but propagation is trickier. Monsanto might have some tips for them.
It'll be interesting to see if/how they try to lock it down genetically, I think it's possible to make the plants unable to produce seeds, but propagation is trickier. Monsanto might have some tips for them.
What if someone inserted the gene in a human embryo, but didn’t pay the royalty? Would the pregnancy have to be aborted to protect the IP, or would it be enough to cease and desist future distribution of the gene via castration? I mean it sounds harsh but the parent did violate intellectual property law.
Human rights have priority over IP rights.
There's a photographer suing a tattoo artist over this right now. The outcome will be interesting.
the photographer already lost.
IP schipey, I want my lumen-man!
It seems likely that the seeds you get from these plants won't produce plants that have the same characteristics as the parents.
Nature has a more detailed article https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00383-3?s=08 describing why they chose petunias, and propagation via cuttings.
It's a shame the backwards anti-GM laws we have in the EU mean we won't be able to have these here.
Or glad that potentially harmful plants for our environment are not easily imported and sold.
As long nobody gives a fuck which flowers they buy this year to further kill the local ecosystem I am all for limitations.
Source: I live rather remote in the Alps and nature here is nothing like it was 100 years ago. Which is not necessarily bad, except most 'pests' seem to be popular garden plants.
As long nobody gives a fuck which flowers they buy this year to further kill the local ecosystem I am all for limitations.
Source: I live rather remote in the Alps and nature here is nothing like it was 100 years ago. Which is not necessarily bad, except most 'pests' seem to be popular garden plants.
I don't care too much for what's native and what's not (perhaps partly because being an immigrant myself hehe) but the real disturbing plants are the ones who out-compete multiple species and add rather large points of failure by ridding diversity.
While imagining glowing forests is cool, in the fight against sweeping diseases, diversity is king.
While imagining glowing forests is cool, in the fight against sweeping diseases, diversity is king.
Non-native plants are the ones that out-compete the local species.
It's daft to apply human politics to plants.
It's daft to apply human politics to plants.
> It's daft to apply human politics to plants.
It was just a joke.
> Non-native plants are the ones that out-compete the local species.
Usually, but not always. Some non-native species may increase diversity and some native species can turn invasive when the environment changes (usually due to the global warming).
It was just a joke.
> Non-native plants are the ones that out-compete the local species.
Usually, but not always. Some non-native species may increase diversity and some native species can turn invasive when the environment changes (usually due to the global warming).
> Non-native plants are the ones that out-compete the local species.
Not automatically. Only the ones who survive in the wild and spread (by definition).
Not automatically. Only the ones who survive in the wild and spread (by definition).
That's actually changing now. But probably only for agriculture and medicine for now. Which is honestly reasonable.
Plant nerd here. Pre-ordered one of these and was not impressed. Checkout flow loses a step and shipping is almost as much as the cost of a pre-order.
Is this plant cat safe? Can’t seem to find that info
Regular petunias are supposedly safe, and a preliminary search seems to indicate that D-Luceferin is non-toxic enough that it can be injected into lab mice with no ill effects.
Wondering the same thing.
"Why is my cat glowing?" sounds inevitable for my household
"Why is my cat glowing?" sounds inevitable for my household
Petunias are annuals, so you will have to fork over $29 per year per plant.
There's probably no incentive for them to create a bioluminescent perennial.
Petunias are perennials. They are not annuals. They are often grown as annuals because they are native to the subtropics and frost sensitive. You can grow them for several years as either a houseplant or outdoors if you can provide the climate conditions that the plants need.
You can actually dig up plants before the first frost and winter them in the house. I do this for a variety of them.
Just make sure to trim away anything that’ll track in bugs / disease, and keep them in a temperate climate.
Just make sure to trim away anything that’ll track in bugs / disease, and keep them in a temperate climate.
I know there are laws about importing foreign plants which might set seed and grow locally, becoming invasive. A modified plant that had any chance of establishing itself would probably face similar obstacles. I believe roundup-ready corn was sterile and, of course, an annual.
It's only annual if you plant it outside.
lol.
There exist bioluminescent aquarium fish that live for several years. Clearly the market will provide the plant the customer wants.
AFAIK, there are no bioluminescent fish available on the market... There are GloFish (https://www.glofish.com) but they only glow when displayed under a UV light.
One of the first projects I ever backed on Kickstarter was for a glowing plant, back in 2013. It was funded but never delivered to anyone.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/antonyevans/glowing-pla...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/antonyevans/glowing-pla...
You know I woke up this morning thinking "why the hell hasn't anyone developed a bioluminescant petunia?!" then I saw this on HN!
Reminds of when the "Fire Flowers" in Better off Ted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5rAOitj5_8
"Whoah! What was that? Uhh...fire squirrel"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5rAOitj5_8
"Whoah! What was that? Uhh...fire squirrel"
> Firefly Petunia × 9 $261.00
> Free Shipping available for orders from $263.01
You bastards. Fine, one more.
> Free Shipping available for orders from $263.01
You bastards. Fine, one more.
Can’t stop fearing that messing with the living like that is going to badly backfire at some point. The sad aspect is that it’s solely for frivolous reasons and profit. But damn, these petunias are cool.
Genes are mutated randomly by nature, so the code is there to be changed and the menu of options is the same for nature and humans. Indirect methods have been used for centuries, so this is more a matter of degree.
Of course there are dangers in everything, but fiddling with the code of life probably seems more scary than it actually is.
Of course there are dangers in everything, but fiddling with the code of life probably seems more scary than it actually is.
Do note that humans have messed around with plants for a long time and that has caused loads of issues from loss of biodiversity, invasive species and what not. I don't think direct genetic manipulation of plants will have any worse effects than what we already see.
Not messing with it will lead to decay. Just strive to be antifragile and stop reading so much doomer scifi.
Yes, messing with things should be done carefully. But one shouldn't forget how much bad things are happening every day:
- first of all, the continuous threat to Eco-systems from invasive species constantly spread around the globe by carelessness.
- one especially bad example is the breeding of pets which are basically sick by design. A lot of dog races are a prototypical example, but also cats and especially many fish breeds.
So yes, genetically modified plants are a bit frivolous, but one should push more to fight against the things listed above, happening so routinely.
- first of all, the continuous threat to Eco-systems from invasive species constantly spread around the globe by carelessness.
- one especially bad example is the breeding of pets which are basically sick by design. A lot of dog races are a prototypical example, but also cats and especially many fish breeds.
So yes, genetically modified plants are a bit frivolous, but one should push more to fight against the things listed above, happening so routinely.
>But one shouldn't forget how much bad things are happening every day.
That's like saying, stab him because is already shot.
The straw that broke the camel's back.
That's like saying, stab him because is already shot.
The straw that broke the camel's back.
Last time I did petunias I planted about 50 of them in the front and back beds. That would cost well over $1600 for the plants alone so I think I’ll wait until this has been scaled.
Might make nice pathway edging for lighting the way at nighttime.
Insects might like it too.
I remember an early startup, from like 15 years ago, wanting to bring bioluminescent street lamps to market. I wonder what has happened in this space since then.
Pre-order here for $29
https://light.bio/
https://light.bio/
I wonder how this could affect fireflies. Would the glow distract them in any way?
So how many of these would you need to match the brightness of a lightbulb?
How many {descriptor for a category of people} does it take to plant enough petunias to replace a lightbulb?
One step closer to Chroma Green from the game Stray.
Bioluminescence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioluminescence
Shut up and take my money
No shipping to Hawaii :(
Would this fuck with bees/pollinators?
Bees are active in the afternoons when it's bright out and these flowers shouldn't look much different from any other. I'd be more worried about them sexually confusing fireflies at dusk.
Slightly worried about moths which are extremely important. However these probably have nowhere near the effect of the insane amount of artificial light we pump into the night sky
This is cool and all, but "Your Scientists Were So Preoccupied With Whether Or Not They Could, They Didn’t Stop To Think If They Should"
I'm assuming these things are seedless, so they won't start popping up and spreading naturally?
I'm assuming these things are seedless, so they won't start popping up and spreading naturally?
So what if they did? We cross breed flowers all the time.
This isn’t cross breeding two flowers, it is plugging genes from a mushroom into a flower. I can understand using GMOs to grow more food to prevent starvation and malnutrition, but this is messing with another living organism for pure aesthetic purposes. It feels different.
Buddy we turned wolves into frenchies, we well and truly crossed the line and burned the bridge on fucking with other species for aesthetics before any of us were born.
doesn't mean we have to keep doing it. Bulldogs suffer terrible health problems because of this bullshit attitude.
Do you think the petunias will suffer with health problems?
That's not something I'm necessarily concerned about. My personal concern is the normalization of gene editing for aesthetic purposes spreading to other organisms, and dogs are a perfect example. Humans have been artificially selecting flowers for specific aesthetic purposes for centuries: Fine. Humans have been artificially selecting dogs for specific aesthetic purposes for centuries: Not fine. Humans begin gene editing flowers for aesthetic purposes: Fine... What happens next? I don't think that this implies humans are definitely going to start using gene editing dogs for specific aesthetic purposes, but who knows? We should be having these dialogues so that we don't get caught up in this before the practice becomes normalized. With great power comes great responsibility, as Uncle Ben says.
This looks like some kind of joke from the Simpsons.
So I opened the dev tools and found the HTTP response of 504. Oh! Their site is down, it's not just me.
Then I looked at the response headers.
*skull emoji*
(Of course, after my initial heart-sink, I realized that this means their backend is down, and Caddy is serving up the response just fine. Phew.)