Ask HN: Books that gave you different perspective on religion
I'm reading The Prophetic Imagination by Walter Brueggemann now and it's giving me very different perspective on prophecy. Dune also changed my thoughts about religion a lot.
57 comments
The Great Tang Dynasty Record of the Western Regions
This is intended to be an accurate account of a Buddhist monk's travels from China to India and back in the mid-seventh century. The Tang emperor was so impressed with the account, he asked the monk (Xuangzang) to create this historical record.
In addition to accurately describing the imports, exports, geography, and culture, it also goes on at length about dealing with "naga kings" (dragons inhabiting lakes), saints flying around with supernatural power, reincarnation, reputed temple miracles, collected stories of Buddhist enlightenment or attainment, and so on.
It's a similar experience to reading the Illiad or the Odyssey, in that it gives you a perspective on how people give credibility to the fantastic, when there is no evidence.
This is intended to be an accurate account of a Buddhist monk's travels from China to India and back in the mid-seventh century. The Tang emperor was so impressed with the account, he asked the monk (Xuangzang) to create this historical record.
In addition to accurately describing the imports, exports, geography, and culture, it also goes on at length about dealing with "naga kings" (dragons inhabiting lakes), saints flying around with supernatural power, reincarnation, reputed temple miracles, collected stories of Buddhist enlightenment or attainment, and so on.
It's a similar experience to reading the Illiad or the Odyssey, in that it gives you a perspective on how people give credibility to the fantastic, when there is no evidence.
Apart from the actual evidence of course:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32753262/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33360561/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9282169/
One theory is the barrier between the conscious and subconscious mind weakens, and the subconscious begins to project into the conscious mind. That may account for visions and a variety of strange experiences. But to the perceiver, these may appear very real.
Shinzen Young says he went through a period of hallucinating giant insects that he could even touch.
So to say there's no evidence isn't entirely true for firsthand subjects, as the experiences may be as real as the rest of their perceptions. The difference with mental illness apparently lies in knowing the experiences are out-of-the-ordinary though.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32753262/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33360561/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9282169/
One theory is the barrier between the conscious and subconscious mind weakens, and the subconscious begins to project into the conscious mind. That may account for visions and a variety of strange experiences. But to the perceiver, these may appear very real.
Shinzen Young says he went through a period of hallucinating giant insects that he could even touch.
So to say there's no evidence isn't entirely true for firsthand subjects, as the experiences may be as real as the rest of their perceptions. The difference with mental illness apparently lies in knowing the experiences are out-of-the-ordinary though.
There's no evidence that an arhat (saint) sat upon his chair each day and flew out over the lake to have lunch and tea with the naga king in the lake. One day, a disciple of the saint got overly curious and hid under the chair. The dragon (naga) king, sensing the disciple invited him to the luncheon, but fed the saint heavenly rice, while giving mere human food to the unexpected guest. A few grains of the heavenly rice fell into the plate of the disciple, who, upon tasting them, became incensed that he was not fed the heavenly rice also.
The disciple summoned all his past good deeds and willed that the naga king die. That very day, the naga kind developed a headache, and died in the night. As the disciple was sleeping, he too died that night and was reincarnated as the naga king. Because of the slight, he began to cause storms to flood the kingdom.
The local king came to the lake and threatened the new dragon saying he would drain the lake and deprive the dragon of its home. The dragon was cowed and the weather became pleasant again, and the dragon made offerings to the king thereafter, except every once in a while he'd have a temper tantrum and need to be threatened again.
Xuangzang did not experience these things. He was told this story by others as an explanation for the climate changes experienced by the local tribe (kingdom).
I don't think we're talking about transcendental experiences here, nor panpsychism, nor hallucinations. I think we're talking about complete confabulations constructed to explain the ordinary world.
Another example was the tale of a king who, needing to leave his country for a diplomatic mission, left is brother in charge as regent. His brother, expecting court intrigue, supposedly had himself castrated that very night. He placed his bits in a box and gave them to the king to take with him on the journey. He bid the king that he should not open the box until his return.
When the king returned one of the other advisors to the court accused the brother of having an affair with the king's wife. The king summoned his brother to execute him. As the brother entered the court, he begged only that the king examine the contents of the box, and take that as explanation and proof of his innocence.
The king, seeing the bits in the box, forgave his brother. After a time, because of the brother's holiness, his genitals grew back.
I got a laugh out of this story, as it's clear to me that the brother had someone else castrated and claimed the bits in the box were his. But the story is presented as "this totally happened."
So I don't think we're talking about the same kinds of things at all.
The disciple summoned all his past good deeds and willed that the naga king die. That very day, the naga kind developed a headache, and died in the night. As the disciple was sleeping, he too died that night and was reincarnated as the naga king. Because of the slight, he began to cause storms to flood the kingdom.
The local king came to the lake and threatened the new dragon saying he would drain the lake and deprive the dragon of its home. The dragon was cowed and the weather became pleasant again, and the dragon made offerings to the king thereafter, except every once in a while he'd have a temper tantrum and need to be threatened again.
Xuangzang did not experience these things. He was told this story by others as an explanation for the climate changes experienced by the local tribe (kingdom).
I don't think we're talking about transcendental experiences here, nor panpsychism, nor hallucinations. I think we're talking about complete confabulations constructed to explain the ordinary world.
Another example was the tale of a king who, needing to leave his country for a diplomatic mission, left is brother in charge as regent. His brother, expecting court intrigue, supposedly had himself castrated that very night. He placed his bits in a box and gave them to the king to take with him on the journey. He bid the king that he should not open the box until his return.
When the king returned one of the other advisors to the court accused the brother of having an affair with the king's wife. The king summoned his brother to execute him. As the brother entered the court, he begged only that the king examine the contents of the box, and take that as explanation and proof of his innocence.
The king, seeing the bits in the box, forgave his brother. After a time, because of the brother's holiness, his genitals grew back.
I got a laugh out of this story, as it's clear to me that the brother had someone else castrated and claimed the bits in the box were his. But the story is presented as "this totally happened."
So I don't think we're talking about the same kinds of things at all.
Oh stuff like that. Yeah it's surprising just how gullible people are. Unfortunately you've only got to look at politics today to see not much has changed.
Brueggemann is amazing.
I would also add, in no particular order:
- wisdom of the desert (merton's translation of the sayings of the desert fathers)
- pilgrim at tinker creek; annie dillard
- goatwalking, jim corbett
- Impostors of God: Inquiries into our favorite Idols, william stringfellow
- the new testament, trans. by david bentley hart
- the sabbath, Abraham Joshua Heschel
- zen flesh, zen bones
- moral man, immoral society -- neibuhr
- principia discordia
- the poetry and sermons of john donne
- many other poets.
I would also add, in no particular order:
- wisdom of the desert (merton's translation of the sayings of the desert fathers)
- pilgrim at tinker creek; annie dillard
- goatwalking, jim corbett
- Impostors of God: Inquiries into our favorite Idols, william stringfellow
- the new testament, trans. by david bentley hart
- the sabbath, Abraham Joshua Heschel
- zen flesh, zen bones
- moral man, immoral society -- neibuhr
- principia discordia
- the poetry and sermons of john donne
- many other poets.
"The Origin of Consciousness", Jaynes
"The Book of Mormon", Smith
"The Book of Mormon", Smith
“No Man Knows My History”, Brodie
"No Ma'am That's Not History", Hugh Nibley
https://www.amazon.com/History-Brodies-Reluctant-Vindication...
_A Case for the Book of Mormon_, Callister https://www.amazon.com/s?k=a+case+for+the+book+of+mormon&cri...
_A Case for the Book of Mormon_, Callister https://www.amazon.com/s?k=a+case+for+the+book+of+mormon&cri...
Well basically any of the numerous books describing spiritual awakenings, since that's what religions are pointing to.
A good overview is The Kundalini Guide [1]. Some of the stuff defies explanation from a western perspective, but the strange stuff is mentioned throughout history and across traditions, so..?
There are also a few academic papers on kundalini now. Just search on nih.
Finally, after 20 years of trying different schools I'm now having the most success with the free lessons on AYP [2] if you want something practical.
That's the best way IMO since without understanding enlightenment as a real phenomenon, people can get quite confused. And what's the point in just reading a travel guide when you can visit for yourself?
[1] https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kundalini-Guide-Companion-Journey-C...
[2] https://www.aypsite.org/10.html
A good overview is The Kundalini Guide [1]. Some of the stuff defies explanation from a western perspective, but the strange stuff is mentioned throughout history and across traditions, so..?
There are also a few academic papers on kundalini now. Just search on nih.
Finally, after 20 years of trying different schools I'm now having the most success with the free lessons on AYP [2] if you want something practical.
That's the best way IMO since without understanding enlightenment as a real phenomenon, people can get quite confused. And what's the point in just reading a travel guide when you can visit for yourself?
[1] https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kundalini-Guide-Companion-Journey-C...
[2] https://www.aypsite.org/10.html
"A Canticle For Leibowitz"
"The Sparrow"
"Lord of Light"
"The Immortal"
"Hyperion"
"The Last Question"
"Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
"Stranger in a Strange Land"
"The City and the Stars"
"Childhood's End"
"Anathem"
"Eifelheim"
"A Case of Conscience"
"VALIS" trilogy
"The Book of Strange New Things"
"Behold The Man"
"The God Engines"
"Book of the New Sun"
"The Parable of the Sower"
"The Dosadi Experiment"
"Grass"
"Project Pope"
"Calculating God"
"Factoring Humanity"
"Jesus on Mars"
"Surface Detail
"The Sparrow"
"Lord of Light"
"The Immortal"
"Hyperion"
"The Last Question"
"Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
"Stranger in a Strange Land"
"The City and the Stars"
"Childhood's End"
"Anathem"
"Eifelheim"
"A Case of Conscience"
"VALIS" trilogy
"The Book of Strange New Things"
"Behold The Man"
"The God Engines"
"Book of the New Sun"
"The Parable of the Sower"
"The Dosadi Experiment"
"Grass"
"Project Pope"
"Calculating God"
"Factoring Humanity"
"Jesus on Mars"
"Surface Detail
The Book of the New Sun is an amazing set of books, from the language (Gene Wolfe uses the conceit that the account comes from the far future and must be translated into English) to the ideas.
The Demon-Haunted World - Carl Sagan
a crucial book for a "born-atheist" kid like me, trying to make sense and come to terms with my notion of reality in a very religious and mysitical society
Same here.
"God Talks With Arjuna: The Bhagavad Gita" transliteration by Swami Paramhamsa Yogananda had surpassed all the interpretations of Gita for me and implanted a different perspective on Body, Mind, and Intellect from the Bhagwat Perspective.
Being a mildly religious person with lots of questions about it I have wondered how prophecy works from scientific or psychological view. Can you share some of the things you learned about prophecy from the book you mentioned?
The religion I fall into has lots of stories where starting from first person/prophet everyone was making the same prophecy about the last one. I sometimes wondered how it works from an external non-religious but still curious view because religion doesn't have answer to this line of questioning (except God) and demands belief.
Your question just made me realise that prophecy is a thing people have wrote about which is new for me.
The religion I fall into has lots of stories where starting from first person/prophet everyone was making the same prophecy about the last one. I sometimes wondered how it works from an external non-religious but still curious view because religion doesn't have answer to this line of questioning (except God) and demands belief.
Your question just made me realise that prophecy is a thing people have wrote about which is new for me.
Abrahamic prophets are not soothsayers or prognosticators. They're poets and social critics that speak truth to power when power doesn't want to hear it in language that cannot be ignored. Their message is shockingly consistent through the ages: we allow people to be oppressed; that is not right; no good will come of it.
Isaiah 58 absolutely crackles with this.
https://onbeing.org/programs/walter-brueggemann-the-propheti...
Isaiah 58 absolutely crackles with this.
https://onbeing.org/programs/walter-brueggemann-the-propheti...
Thanks very much for the explanation and the link. This is a new view and a lens for me. It makes lots of sense. I think I am going to have new questions now. This also means they did believe they were the chosen ones and must speak up and that's how it kept going on for generations with similar messaging. It couldn't have worked as well as it did otherwise.
The thesis of The Prophetic Imagination is "the task of prophetic ministry is to nurture, nourish, and evoke a consciousness and perception alternative to the consciousness and perception of the dominant culture around us." It's a fascinating read. I have no idea how I stumbled onto this book.
Just about everything by Karen Armstrong. The Case for God is a good one to start with.
The Alphabet that changed the world by Stan Tenan
https://www.amazon.com/Alphabet-That-Changed-World-Conscious...
https://www.amazon.com/Alphabet-That-Changed-World-Conscious...
Reading about the history and practices of Scientology was illuminating because it’s the only religion explicitly designed for the modern post-WWII era. It distills many essential ideas of religion to their operational core and attaches them to a front that presents a palatable vector of initiation (which, for modern Western societies, Hubbard correctly identified as psychotherapy, so he made his church look like a mental health program).
Seeing the process of starting a religion laid so bare is helpful in understanding successful operators of the past like Paul the Apostle, Muhammad, Smith, etc.
Seeing the process of starting a religion laid so bare is helpful in understanding successful operators of the past like Paul the Apostle, Muhammad, Smith, etc.
There's so many schizos running around at all times, one of them has to get it "right" eventually (find them on TikTok these days).
It's such an obvious legacy behavior of homo sapiens. But then, we wouldn't have survived without it, would we?
It's such an obvious legacy behavior of homo sapiens. But then, we wouldn't have survived without it, would we?
Religion and ideology help organize societies, and Christianity used to be a central focus of community life for the everyday peasant in the Middle Ages. Nations, companies, and the markets obviously aren't a definite existence in our times, and in other places and times they have a very different existence than today. But today they are a central pillar in organizing our societies.
Religion seems absurd because they don't mesh well in our societies anymore, but countries and enterprises, for example, may seem an absurd and harmful notion to people of another time and place.
Religion seems absurd because they don't mesh well in our societies anymore, but countries and enterprises, for example, may seem an absurd and harmful notion to people of another time and place.
Yes, Scientology is on my radar, but which books exactly??
Also est
Quite a few along the way, but in an attempt to minimise:
- "Letters from the Desert" by Carlo Carretto
- "Being the Body" by Charles Colson
- "Fire in Our Hearts" by Mike Farrant
- "Total Freedom" by Jiddu Krishnamurti
- "Muhammad - a Prophet for Our Time" by Karen Armstrong
- "Letters from the Desert" by Carlo Carretto
- "Being the Body" by Charles Colson
- "Fire in Our Hearts" by Mike Farrant
- "Total Freedom" by Jiddu Krishnamurti
- "Muhammad - a Prophet for Our Time" by Karen Armstrong
Common sense - Your brain, considering the modern ape, also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WwAQqWUkpI&pp=ygUhaHVtYW4gY...
The "Dictionary of gods and goddesses, devils and demons" gives good descriptions and has cross references on categories, etc.
Its a thick book which kinda illuminated for me how many of these types of things humans have come up with and how over time one set of them influences the next.
Its a thick book which kinda illuminated for me how many of these types of things humans have come up with and how over time one set of them influences the next.
It's not a book, but this gang-member's near-death experience made quite an impression on me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vLs_wg9q2I
The Long Loneliness by Dorothy Day. About her life and involvement with the Catholic Worker movement.
The Dazzle Of Day by Molly Gloss. A downbeat beautiful meditation on a spaceship crewed by Quakers.
The Dazzle Of Day by Molly Gloss. A downbeat beautiful meditation on a spaceship crewed by Quakers.
When They Severed Earth From Sky (2004); see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38761574
Destiny disrupted: A History of the world through Islamic eyes, Tamim Ansary
Early Theological Writings, Hegel. Specifically 'The spirit of Christianity and it's Fate'.
Early Theological Writings, Hegel. Specifically 'The spirit of Christianity and it's Fate'.
Thomas Merton's _New Seeds of Contemplation_
The Clear Quran
Translation by Dr. Khattab
An specific chapter on the "Wondering mind" from Isaac Asimov. Great book
Reading the Bible made me more Atheist then anything else to be honest.
Mere Christianity - C.S. Lewis
I suggest two books by Hesse - Siddhartha / Narcissus and Goldmund.
The Brothers Karamazov
More Than A Carpenter
I've never found any of Josh McDowell's books convincing. I think they only provide confirmation to those who already believe.
Tom Holland: Dominion
The House of Government by Yuri Slezkine.
Struggling to Surrender: Dr. Jeffrey Lang
"The Martyr" by Poul Anderson
History of God by Karen Armstrong
Bhagavad Gita
Uncanny X-Men 141-142
Be Here Now, Ram Dass
The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins
The major flaw in his argument is his abject dismissal of personal experience. He gives all of about 2 sentences to the subject and fills the rest of the book with plausible sounding arguments that miss the point. He's either right or he's wrong, and no amount of logic changes that.
As people are intimidately related to mystical experience it makes for a rather weak read once you spot his refusal to examine cross-cultural accounts of experiences - especially if you're aware of the kundalini literature/have had experiences yourself (see my other comment).
As people are intimidately related to mystical experience it makes for a rather weak read once you spot his refusal to examine cross-cultural accounts of experiences - especially if you're aware of the kundalini literature/have had experiences yourself (see my other comment).
[deleted]
Not a book really but just listening to a lot of people talking about the subject of 'religion' - between quotes because of the wide application of the term - and coming to the realisation that my previous stance on it did not hold in light of recent (as in the last century or so) developments. A bit of background: I was born in a non-practising Catholic family and always went to Catholic schools where I stood out by not going to communion and not becoming an altar boy etc. I went to a Jesuit-run high school where my French teacher would lead the service at the start and end of the year, etc. It was a good school and I had a good time and good teachers but they did not inspire me to pick up religion. I saw religion as something which more or less belonged to history where it played an important role but which was slowly but surely being overtaken by the products of the Enlightenment: the scientific method, the age of reason, objectivity. Where I saw religion rear up I saw trouble: Iran under Khomeini turning into a theocracy, all sorts of scandals in Catholic churches (of which I never noticed anything by the way), periodic outbreaks of long-banished diseases among strictly religious communities because they refused vaccination and thought prayer to be as effective as modern medicine, etc. It would surely be better for us here in the Western world to rid ourselves of the final remains of religious dogma for then we would be free...
...or would we?
We did and still do rid ourselves of old religious bonds but we do not seem to have become more free for that, the opposite seems to be true. The 'god-shaped hole' which is left after leaving those 'old religions' did not get filled with objectivity and reason. It seems to have become a fertile bed for even more dogmatic ideologies which have many of the downsides of religion but offer none of the upsides. Many of these 'ersatz-religions' are distinctly anti-western, some go even further by being anti-human. There is no salvation to be found among them, man was born in sin and repentance will not save him. There is no heaven awaiting those who try to follow the 'correct' path, only a different version of hell.
What all this has taught me is that religion did not appear out of a vacuum but out of necessity. To keep society as sane as possible there is a need for a higher authority - whether real or imagined - which (or who) stands above all us mortals, even above the most mighty of kings and the most powerful of warlords. It is to that higher authority and his set of commandments that even those highest rulers need to be subservient to so as to keep them from usurping the power to do as they please without recourse. This can only work if enough people consider the will of the higher authority to overrule that of their 'earthly' rulers so the message needs to be spread and someone needs to get that ball rolling - a prophet, so to say.
Maybe a time will come when we as a species can live together without the need for a higher being to keep us from violating the commandments but that time has not yet arrived so: choose your god(s) but choose them wisely. You do not need to believe in the actual existence of the deity/deities in question but you - being rational - should be able to reason yourself into a position where acting as if he/they exist(s) is the better choice. You do not have to follow mortal leaders who claim they know what your god wants but you can listen to what the wiser among them have to say and find your own way towards a fulfilling life.
...or would we?
We did and still do rid ourselves of old religious bonds but we do not seem to have become more free for that, the opposite seems to be true. The 'god-shaped hole' which is left after leaving those 'old religions' did not get filled with objectivity and reason. It seems to have become a fertile bed for even more dogmatic ideologies which have many of the downsides of religion but offer none of the upsides. Many of these 'ersatz-religions' are distinctly anti-western, some go even further by being anti-human. There is no salvation to be found among them, man was born in sin and repentance will not save him. There is no heaven awaiting those who try to follow the 'correct' path, only a different version of hell.
What all this has taught me is that religion did not appear out of a vacuum but out of necessity. To keep society as sane as possible there is a need for a higher authority - whether real or imagined - which (or who) stands above all us mortals, even above the most mighty of kings and the most powerful of warlords. It is to that higher authority and his set of commandments that even those highest rulers need to be subservient to so as to keep them from usurping the power to do as they please without recourse. This can only work if enough people consider the will of the higher authority to overrule that of their 'earthly' rulers so the message needs to be spread and someone needs to get that ball rolling - a prophet, so to say.
Maybe a time will come when we as a species can live together without the need for a higher being to keep us from violating the commandments but that time has not yet arrived so: choose your god(s) but choose them wisely. You do not need to believe in the actual existence of the deity/deities in question but you - being rational - should be able to reason yourself into a position where acting as if he/they exist(s) is the better choice. You do not have to follow mortal leaders who claim they know what your god wants but you can listen to what the wiser among them have to say and find your own way towards a fulfilling life.