Third Time: a better way to work (2022)(lesswrong.com)
lesswrong.com
Third Time: a better way to work (2022)
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/RWu8eZqbwgB9zaerh/third-time-a-better-way-to-work
56 comments
Same. I wish I got to actually write code. I spend a lot of time at my job knowing that there are programming tasks to be done, but they're not in the sprint, and scrum master will scold me if I work on them, so instead I sit on my hands waiting for the middleware team to do some task or other that would be totally unnecessary if they had followed my advice in the first place.
>scrum master will scold me if I work on them, so instead I sit on my hands
Do the programming tasks anyway. I have found that being productive will not get you fired, even if it makes a power-junkie mad that you're not on their leash.
Do the programming tasks anyway. I have found that being productive will not get you fired, even if it makes a power-junkie mad that you're not on their leash.
From an outside perspective it looks like you are saying you know what is best but can't convince anybody of it? Is everyone around you incompetent or is it possible there are different priorities?
I think it's not different priorities so much as an organization that has ossified around a particular way of doing things, and when problems are detected (like "why does it take 2 weeks to add a column to a table"), the solution is to cram more cooks into the kitchen. If I bring this up I am basically told "well we can't do anything about that." So I've learned to keep my mouth shut when the scrum leader asks if there's anything keeping me from doing my job rather than rattling off the latest of many organizational problems that have made my job 1000x harder than it needs to be.
I have worked at places where people are competent and have slightly different priorities than I do. This is very different.
I have worked at places where people are competent and have slightly different priorities than I do. This is very different.
Yeah it's difficult to handle especially if there are unknown unknowns. I prefer to find a coding job where my clients are programmers.
Just work on them anyway, save the code, and follow the ticket. Once it's in the sprint, copy+paste and commit.
That is one approach that I try to take sometimes. The real problem is more that having to report every morning on work I've done that is in the sprint puts a real damper on my ability to focus on the other stuff. And if effort spent overcoming that isn't even appreciated, why bother? It's just kind of demoralizing, especially after having spent a decade working at a job where I was able to get things done. Live and learn, then get demoted to a position where you can't apply any of it.
I guess if you have a tendency to automate yourself out of a job, it's inevitable that you'll end up somewhere so dysfunctional that it's impossible to do so.
I guess if you have a tendency to automate yourself out of a job, it's inevitable that you'll end up somewhere so dysfunctional that it's impossible to do so.
> I guess if you have a tendency to automate yourself out of a job, it's inevitable that you'll end up somewhere so dysfunctional that it's impossible to do so.
think of a handyman that works so efficiently that he effectively has no margin.
think of a handyman that works so efficiently that he effectively has no margin.
Even more meta, make food for a family?
Welcome to the software development world!
Software developing is so much more than web programming, oh boy!
Software developing is so much more than web programming, oh boy!
I'm actually a DE but with this market it's difficult to transfer to anything else. I'll probably just switch jobs frequently and keep the freshness, grit for 10 years and get the hell of the indistry.
i like the idea of breaktime accumulating based on the time worked. it makes sense. it also means that after an 8 hour work day i deserve to sit down in the evening and relax for an hour or two without feeling guilty.
however i disagree that an interruption at the door, or going out for errands counts as break time. it depends on what exactly happens, but dealing with an interruption, or driving a car, paying attention to catch a bus or train, are not relaxing. personally i try to combine errands with going for a walk, so that partly counts as a break. but dealing with other people can be stressful (especially for introverts) so that's not a valid break.
for a break you need an activity that you enjoy and that allows you to relax.
when i am dealing with people a lot, then hacking on a side project for fun becomes my break.
when i work alone on the computer, socializing with others can be my break.
but after a day of working and socializing i need some alone time to unwind.
however i disagree that an interruption at the door, or going out for errands counts as break time. it depends on what exactly happens, but dealing with an interruption, or driving a car, paying attention to catch a bus or train, are not relaxing. personally i try to combine errands with going for a walk, so that partly counts as a break. but dealing with other people can be stressful (especially for introverts) so that's not a valid break.
for a break you need an activity that you enjoy and that allows you to relax.
when i am dealing with people a lot, then hacking on a side project for fun becomes my break.
when i work alone on the computer, socializing with others can be my break.
but after a day of working and socializing i need some alone time to unwind.
>however i disagree that an interruption at the door, or going out for errands counts as break time.
I think there's two ways to look at this:
1) The breaks are relative to the work. If you're doing a given "job" for all the tasks that entails, anything you're doing that isn't the "job" should be included in the break calculations. Certainly this is how any employer would treat the situation. It doesn't matter that taking your car to the mechanic isn't fun, it's also not part of your job so your employer is going to count it as PTO. Likewise, when allocating your own time to a given job, you should view it the same way.
That certainly makes quite a bit of sense to me. If I'm dreading some contract work, but trying to manage my schedule, allowing myself to procrastinate by choosing an even less worse task (like scrubbing the toilet, or doing yard work) and then also taking additional pleasure breaks is going to drastically reduce the time I'm spending getting paid, and if I'm trying to manage my time that's probably not a good thing.
2) Some people (myself included) can definitely get a "break" from work, even if they're doing a chore. In fact, I did this just last week. I'd spent the entire day beating my head against a task that just wasn't going right. At a certain point, I needed a break but I knew if I hung around I'd keep trying to come back to the task. So I went out and did the grocery shopping for the week instead. That took me away from the task and out of the mindset of being focused on it long enough to come back and tackle things fresh. Was it truly a break in that I got to unwind and relax? Not really. But it was a break in that it served the purposed to give me an escape from the work I was bogged down in that was frustrating me.
Whether something is a break or not in this view is less about "work" vs "leisure" and more your own mental state. If I switch off doing some work task to spend some time on my skunkworks project I'm doing at work, if that re-charges me and gives me the mental capacity to go back to the real work I'm doing, that could be just as much of a "break" as reading a book, even if I was still doing stuff that was for "work".
I think there's two ways to look at this:
1) The breaks are relative to the work. If you're doing a given "job" for all the tasks that entails, anything you're doing that isn't the "job" should be included in the break calculations. Certainly this is how any employer would treat the situation. It doesn't matter that taking your car to the mechanic isn't fun, it's also not part of your job so your employer is going to count it as PTO. Likewise, when allocating your own time to a given job, you should view it the same way.
That certainly makes quite a bit of sense to me. If I'm dreading some contract work, but trying to manage my schedule, allowing myself to procrastinate by choosing an even less worse task (like scrubbing the toilet, or doing yard work) and then also taking additional pleasure breaks is going to drastically reduce the time I'm spending getting paid, and if I'm trying to manage my time that's probably not a good thing.
2) Some people (myself included) can definitely get a "break" from work, even if they're doing a chore. In fact, I did this just last week. I'd spent the entire day beating my head against a task that just wasn't going right. At a certain point, I needed a break but I knew if I hung around I'd keep trying to come back to the task. So I went out and did the grocery shopping for the week instead. That took me away from the task and out of the mindset of being focused on it long enough to come back and tackle things fresh. Was it truly a break in that I got to unwind and relax? Not really. But it was a break in that it served the purposed to give me an escape from the work I was bogged down in that was frustrating me.
Whether something is a break or not in this view is less about "work" vs "leisure" and more your own mental state. If I switch off doing some work task to spend some time on my skunkworks project I'm doing at work, if that re-charges me and gives me the mental capacity to go back to the real work I'm doing, that could be just as much of a "break" as reading a book, even if I was still doing stuff that was for "work".
i think overall we agree.
let me address your points:
1) we are not discussing legal or contract breaks, but breaks that help productivity. in germany a legal break is 15 minutes per 3 hours, and a single break must be at least 15 minutes to count as a break. so clearly, what counts as paid work has no bearing on breaks needed for productivity.
breaks for chores and errands can't be avoided, whether they are stressful or not. however, when a family weekend trip is so exhausting that i can't focus on work on monday then this is something i need to take into consideration when planning my free time.
and if i need 15 minutes of break for every 45 minutes of work while in the office then i have to be careful and may need to find a work related task that i can use to get that break effect, and hope that i don't have a micromanaging boss that doesn't allow that skunkworks project you mentioned.
2) of course. i fully agree with you here. it is all about the mental state. which means for each activity i have to consider how it will affect me. an activity that helps get a break for you could be adding more stress for me. it always depends. on some days grocery shopping actually does help me unwind and relax. on others it doesn't. that skunkworks project is also a good example. absolutely.
let me address your points:
1) we are not discussing legal or contract breaks, but breaks that help productivity. in germany a legal break is 15 minutes per 3 hours, and a single break must be at least 15 minutes to count as a break. so clearly, what counts as paid work has no bearing on breaks needed for productivity.
breaks for chores and errands can't be avoided, whether they are stressful or not. however, when a family weekend trip is so exhausting that i can't focus on work on monday then this is something i need to take into consideration when planning my free time.
and if i need 15 minutes of break for every 45 minutes of work while in the office then i have to be careful and may need to find a work related task that i can use to get that break effect, and hope that i don't have a micromanaging boss that doesn't allow that skunkworks project you mentioned.
2) of course. i fully agree with you here. it is all about the mental state. which means for each activity i have to consider how it will affect me. an activity that helps get a break for you could be adding more stress for me. it always depends. on some days grocery shopping actually does help me unwind and relax. on others it doesn't. that skunkworks project is also a good example. absolutely.
If I take a break every time I'm bored, I'd be breaking all day.
I might find this ultra-productivity useful if it was at a business or side-project I owned or ran, where I have a large stake in the outcomes and there’s not enough people to do everything. But, if working for a medium to large-sized company, the ROI on this type of productivity just isn’t there. I’m not saying don’t be professional and work hard and do your job, but in my experience if you race ahead because of some productivity hack you often end up either completing something that has changed from how you did it by the time it is needed, or no one really notices that you’re cranking out extra tasks all the time. I guess I could see a benefit if you use this to work smarter not harder and automate out a lot of mundane drudgery in your day-to-day.
Yes, input has to be tied to outcome else you might as well just bikeshed and relax in meetings. This is likely why there are so many developer-adjacent roles in medium-large companies: nobody actually wants to do (hard) work and I really can't blame them.
I love this idea and have often observed the effect they describe in the intro.
> Instead of half-working all day, it’s better to work in focused stints, with breaks in between to recover
Yes! Super true. Strong agree.
The discipline to actually do this I find harder to muster however. When you're tired it can be difficult to realize that you're tired and unproductive. Even when you do realize this, it can be harder still to muster the activation energy to stop what you're doing and take a break. I haven't found a solution to this.
I have also found that for creative work especially (in particular for writing), I will often have long unsatisfying stints of working-but-not-working followed the next day by an amazingly productive burst of activity. That burst does not happen without the working-but-not-working period.
Then there's the other problem of how you apply this third time idea to a workday. I would love to take a 20min break after every 1 hour meeting. There are not enough hours in the day to do this.
> Instead of half-working all day, it’s better to work in focused stints, with breaks in between to recover
Yes! Super true. Strong agree.
The discipline to actually do this I find harder to muster however. When you're tired it can be difficult to realize that you're tired and unproductive. Even when you do realize this, it can be harder still to muster the activation energy to stop what you're doing and take a break. I haven't found a solution to this.
I have also found that for creative work especially (in particular for writing), I will often have long unsatisfying stints of working-but-not-working followed the next day by an amazingly productive burst of activity. That burst does not happen without the working-but-not-working period.
Then there's the other problem of how you apply this third time idea to a workday. I would love to take a 20min break after every 1 hour meeting. There are not enough hours in the day to do this.
Instead of half-working all day I prefer to work for half a day
Parkinson law: "Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion"
Horstman’a corollary: "Work contracts to fit in the time we give it"
I used to give myself only 5 hours of work a day in given hours. My productivity was surprisingly better than with full 8 hours, my stress was lower, and I had so much free time.
I really should get back to doing that
Parkinson law: "Work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion"
Horstman’a corollary: "Work contracts to fit in the time we give it"
I used to give myself only 5 hours of work a day in given hours. My productivity was surprisingly better than with full 8 hours, my stress was lower, and I had so much free time.
I really should get back to doing that
I think this has been the biggest benefit to my mental health working from home.
The ability to take a minute or thirty when I need it and not wonder what the perception of those around me is. Some of my best ideas come to me as I load the dishwasher.
I tend get more done when I can bounce between ideas, projects, states of mind, locations, etc than when I'm powering through something at a desk for hours at a time.
The ability to take a minute or thirty when I need it and not wonder what the perception of those around me is. Some of my best ideas come to me as I load the dishwasher.
I tend get more done when I can bounce between ideas, projects, states of mind, locations, etc than when I'm powering through something at a desk for hours at a time.
I could never begin to count the times I have been grinding away at something, making zero progress, and the right idea comes to me two minutes after I step away from my machine.
Hammock driven development https://youtube.com/watch?v=f84n5oFoZBc
When I worked in an office I'd get up and go on walks, or move to a sofa and let the problem simmer a bit, several times a day. I've been fortunate to work in companies which seem to, I think, recognize these are productive activities
When I worked in an office I'd get up and go on walks, or move to a sofa and let the problem simmer a bit, several times a day. I've been fortunate to work in companies which seem to, I think, recognize these are productive activities
> Instead of half-working all day I prefer to work for half a day
I have had a lot of success with this. I was also a stressed-out wreck the entire time.
Turns out sprinting through all your work is exhausting. Who knew
Ultimately I think the solution is to stop having more work than fits in a day. But my personality really really dislikes that reality.
I have had a lot of success with this. I was also a stressed-out wreck the entire time.
Turns out sprinting through all your work is exhausting. Who knew
Ultimately I think the solution is to stop having more work than fits in a day. But my personality really really dislikes that reality.
Reminds me of interval training for physical fitness.
If you're enjoying it well enough this is typically not a concern. I do take breaks when the program is building though. Or when I'm not feeling it. Please don't try to replace your feelings by ridiculously rigid schemes.
That seems pretty well covered by the article though. They explicitly say work for as long or as short a time as you are feeling good about. The only thing that's particularly rigid is that you have a fixed and rigid end time for the break based on how long you worked. It feels less like replacing feelings with ridiculously rigid schemes and more like a plan to actually listen to your feelings, but also have personal accountability to return to the task. It's real easy if you're the sort of person that struggles with procrastinating on tasks to "feel" like you're ready to get back to work.
Same here: using timing for things like breaks is stressful and adds constraints, when the idea of a break is actually to get away from those
right. the time tracking needs to be automatic in some form. a small tool that tracks your working time (plenty of those to choose from, and maybe there is even one that tracks your pause time too) and then a break activity that is easy to measure.
the important part is to set things up in a way so i don't have to think about it.
the important part is to set things up in a way so i don't have to think about it.
The way I prefer is slightly different: I work for as long as I like, then I break for as long as I like.
I found that I'm a lot happier doing things "according to need" instead of forcing my human body to follow machine patterns.
However forcing myself to take a break every hour helped a lot with chores, and with eating and hydrating properly.
However forcing myself to take a break every hour helped a lot with chores, and with eating and hydrating properly.
I read a third of the article.
This reads like a skit.
Divide your time in communication and focus work. After 3 units of work, do 1 unit of communication. Or any other ratio.
Work from home for x days l, then work at the office for y days.
Work for five units of time, then don't work for two units of time. We can call it week and weekend.
Divide your time in communication and focus work. After 3 units of work, do 1 unit of communication. Or any other ratio.
Work from home for x days l, then work at the office for y days.
Work for five units of time, then don't work for two units of time. We can call it week and weekend.
> 1/5: 50 mins work + 10 mins breaks per hour. Working 5/6 of the time. Hard
This is what school classes do? Not sure if that can be called hard.
This is what school classes do? Not sure if that can be called hard.
Passive listening vs. Active creation. Also I supplemented my classes with doodle breaks.
There must be something about this working strategy that attracts developers to build a technical implementation! I know there's a few others in the comments, here's one that I was able to whip up myself:
https://danverbraganza.com/tools/third-timer?/
https://danverbraganza.com/tools/third-timer?/
This seems like a huge pain to track if I’m being honest
Well, time's a wastin'! First we'll write a little app, with a sqlite-powered backend maybe throw it behind organizr or something to run at home...
This article completely misses the point of these techniques. It reads like something someone just made up because it "feels good".
Background: I'm a musican and programmer, now doing a Phd between both fields. I've been reading about practicing and learning techniques and talking to experts about this for about 30 years.
The whole point is that you take a break BEFORE you feel like you need to. This is basically universal across disciplines. That's the secret. If you wait until you "feel like it" you are likely already past the optimal fatigue point. You can get way more training/learning/work done if you keep yourself away from that point, and for most people doing serious training, 25-30 minutes on followed by 5 to 10 off is good. This is used in sports and music extensively. I could see other fields using something longer, but the principle still holds. If you stop way before fatigue and rest, you can get about 2 to 3 times more in in a day than if you train to fatigue.
In addition to making sure you aren't fatigued, it also keeps you in the right head space, which is calm and focused, NOT obsessive and agitated. If you can't make yourself take a break every half hour, then that likely means you've crossed into obsessive-compulsive land and are no longer focusing optimally.
Doing this does not feel natural. It takes practice. But once you get used to it, you can definitely do more. And it needs to be a BREAK. One of my university music teachers swore by literally lying done on the practice room floor for five minutes every half hour, and that guy was a beast on the bass, one of the best in a city of two million.
Proposing something else because it feels nice... is almost exactly wrong. I mean, do what you like, but comparing it to a timed training regime is way off base.
Background: I'm a musican and programmer, now doing a Phd between both fields. I've been reading about practicing and learning techniques and talking to experts about this for about 30 years.
The whole point is that you take a break BEFORE you feel like you need to. This is basically universal across disciplines. That's the secret. If you wait until you "feel like it" you are likely already past the optimal fatigue point. You can get way more training/learning/work done if you keep yourself away from that point, and for most people doing serious training, 25-30 minutes on followed by 5 to 10 off is good. This is used in sports and music extensively. I could see other fields using something longer, but the principle still holds. If you stop way before fatigue and rest, you can get about 2 to 3 times more in in a day than if you train to fatigue.
In addition to making sure you aren't fatigued, it also keeps you in the right head space, which is calm and focused, NOT obsessive and agitated. If you can't make yourself take a break every half hour, then that likely means you've crossed into obsessive-compulsive land and are no longer focusing optimally.
Doing this does not feel natural. It takes practice. But once you get used to it, you can definitely do more. And it needs to be a BREAK. One of my university music teachers swore by literally lying done on the practice room floor for five minutes every half hour, and that guy was a beast on the bass, one of the best in a city of two million.
Proposing something else because it feels nice... is almost exactly wrong. I mean, do what you like, but comparing it to a timed training regime is way off base.
Is there some (or any) scientific basis for this? I couldn't find any justification or references in the article, although my apologies in advance if I missed them.
> This kind of pattern is natural; research confirms that people tend to take longer breaks after working for longer. (One-third is just a recommendation; you can use other break fractions if you prefer.)
There is a link on the word research. That seems like a justification to me. I prefer just to casually take it into account though.
There is a link on the word research. That seems like a justification to me. I prefer just to casually take it into account though.
[deleted]
I love this so much that I actually made a gamified version of it a few months ago! https://focumon.com/about
I made an Emacs Org-mode package for this: https://github.com/telotortium/org-pomodoro-third-time
After reading the title I was hoping to find something about third time, same as third space: time that's neither work nor rest. That would be something!
It’s really more important to have your own alone time.
https://rationalbreaks.vercel.app/
Per the comments someone made a web app for this already
Per the comments someone made a web app for this already
Yeah. Treat yourself like a robot. What can go wrong... :)
tldr: work 18 hours, sleep 6 hours
There seems to be confusion in replies, but this math seems correct to me (assuming I understood the article correctly):
18 + (18/3) = 24you are right, i was indeed confused. i just thought about this now and came back here to correct my mistake, only to find that you have already done it. so there is nothing left for me to do than putting that brown paper bag back on and seeing myself out...
you got the math wrong. that's a quarter break
it's 12 hours of work and 8 hours of sleep.
and suddenly it all makes sense. while your mind takes a break from work, your body isn't, and that's why it needs those 8 hours of sleep.
it's 12 hours of work and 8 hours of sleep.
and suddenly it all makes sense. while your mind takes a break from work, your body isn't, and that's why it needs those 8 hours of sleep.
I need to get into some lower level programming job or a tool programming job.