Zildjian, a 400-year-old cymbal-making company in Massachusetts(wbur.org)
wbur.org
Zildjian, a 400-year-old cymbal-making company in Massachusetts
https://www.wbur.org/news/2024/12/16/400-years-zildjian-cymbals-massachusetts
244 comments
"Zildjian" is an Armenian last name, but "Zildji" (zilci) means "cymbalist"/"cymbal-maker", or more generically, "bell-maker" in Turkish. "-ian" is the Armenian patronymic suffix. The whole word means something like "Cymbalistson" which makes it the most fitting company name to produce cymbals.
From the article, the cymbal-making came first, and then the name followed:
The company’s proprietary alloy was alchemized 13 generations ago in Constantinople (now Istanbul) by Debbie Zildjian’s ancestor, Avedis I. He was trying to make gold, she said, but he ended up concocting a combination of copper and tin. “The mixing of those metals produced a very loud, resonant, beautiful sound,” she said.
Debbie explained that in 1618 the Ottoman sultan summoned Avedis to the Topkapi Palace to make cymbals for elite military bands. The metalsmith’s work pleased the ruler, who gave him permission to found his own business in 1623. The sultan also bestowed Avedis the family name "Zildjian" which actually means cymbal maker. He went on to craft cymbals that were widely used, including in churches and by belly dancers.
The company’s proprietary alloy was alchemized 13 generations ago in Constantinople (now Istanbul) by Debbie Zildjian’s ancestor, Avedis I. He was trying to make gold, she said, but he ended up concocting a combination of copper and tin. “The mixing of those metals produced a very loud, resonant, beautiful sound,” she said.
Debbie explained that in 1618 the Ottoman sultan summoned Avedis to the Topkapi Palace to make cymbals for elite military bands. The metalsmith’s work pleased the ruler, who gave him permission to found his own business in 1623. The sultan also bestowed Avedis the family name "Zildjian" which actually means cymbal maker. He went on to craft cymbals that were widely used, including in churches and by belly dancers.
It makes sense though as "-ian" implies there was a "Zildji" before the brand existed. :)
The catch, though, is that ambiguity between 'cymbal-maker' and 'bell-maker'. 'Zil's certainly existed before the surname existed, but what was a zil/zill? In English 'zill' still usually refers to something like a 'finger cymbal' or crotal, something with thicker bell-like walls and a bell-like sound and vibration. Unfortunately everything I've read about this is suggestive but maddeningly vague, for example p. 8 https://books.google.ie/books?redir_esc=y&id=Fl6Ie0_Rt8cC&q=... of the official history, Zildjian: A History of the Legendary Cymbal Makers by Jon Cohan (ISBN 9780793591558 ):
> Cymbals and bells had been made of bronze for centuries; the formula of eight parts of copper to two parts of tin was well known, but at some point Avedis stumbled upon a process of making a bronze alloy which held its strength and temper even when hammered and worked to a previously unimaginable thinness. The technique he discovered allowed cymbals to be made which had a distinct purity of tone that no other cymbal had ever achieved. The bronze alloy itself was no mystery, but the mixing process, the method of combining the metals in molten form to create the castings from which the cymbals was made, was a secret held only by Avedis. The resulting cymbals, said to contain traces of gold or silver, must have pleased the Sultan enough to commission Avedis to make cymbals for the Janissaries, the superior fighting forces of the Ottomans. The music of the Janissary bands relied profoundly on the striking of the cymbals, and Avedis became the official supplier to the Sultan.
Bells ring when you hit them, but cymbals have a thin bow which vibrates wildly and crashes when hit. It's a radically different sound, and apparently a radically different physical behaviour, though I don't understand the physics. So what I suspect happened was this: thick-walled, bell-like zils had long been manufactured in Constantinople, in various different sizes. But Avedis I's alloy turned out to be (again, I assume) the first (at least in the Middle East or Europe) to allow zils to be made thin enough to crash like a cymbal, not just ring like a bell. This is presumably what the talk about "distinct purity of tone that no other cymbal had ever achieved" actually refers to. Since making thin-bowed cymbals is apparently a very tricky procedure which involves subjecting the blank to high pressure and high temperature at the same time, it seems plausible that Avedis' accidental breakthrough in metallurgy was necessary to make this possible. (OTOH maybe his real breakthrough was in that cymbal-making process; maybe his special recipe for the blanks was in fact less necessary than he realised, even?) A leap from ringing bell-like zills to crashing cymbals would be the kind of thing which could be dramatic enough to get the sultan to notice and to hand out a title, a trade monopoly and a cash prize. If the crash was a new sound, it must have seemed absolutely otherworldly at the time. (However I don't know when China started making crashing cymbals, whether some crashing cymbals from China might have made it to Constantinople by the early 1600s, and so on.)
> Cymbals and bells had been made of bronze for centuries; the formula of eight parts of copper to two parts of tin was well known, but at some point Avedis stumbled upon a process of making a bronze alloy which held its strength and temper even when hammered and worked to a previously unimaginable thinness. The technique he discovered allowed cymbals to be made which had a distinct purity of tone that no other cymbal had ever achieved. The bronze alloy itself was no mystery, but the mixing process, the method of combining the metals in molten form to create the castings from which the cymbals was made, was a secret held only by Avedis. The resulting cymbals, said to contain traces of gold or silver, must have pleased the Sultan enough to commission Avedis to make cymbals for the Janissaries, the superior fighting forces of the Ottomans. The music of the Janissary bands relied profoundly on the striking of the cymbals, and Avedis became the official supplier to the Sultan.
Bells ring when you hit them, but cymbals have a thin bow which vibrates wildly and crashes when hit. It's a radically different sound, and apparently a radically different physical behaviour, though I don't understand the physics. So what I suspect happened was this: thick-walled, bell-like zils had long been manufactured in Constantinople, in various different sizes. But Avedis I's alloy turned out to be (again, I assume) the first (at least in the Middle East or Europe) to allow zils to be made thin enough to crash like a cymbal, not just ring like a bell. This is presumably what the talk about "distinct purity of tone that no other cymbal had ever achieved" actually refers to. Since making thin-bowed cymbals is apparently a very tricky procedure which involves subjecting the blank to high pressure and high temperature at the same time, it seems plausible that Avedis' accidental breakthrough in metallurgy was necessary to make this possible. (OTOH maybe his real breakthrough was in that cymbal-making process; maybe his special recipe for the blanks was in fact less necessary than he realised, even?) A leap from ringing bell-like zills to crashing cymbals would be the kind of thing which could be dramatic enough to get the sultan to notice and to hand out a title, a trade monopoly and a cash prize. If the crash was a new sound, it must have seemed absolutely otherworldly at the time. (However I don't know when China started making crashing cymbals, whether some crashing cymbals from China might have made it to Constantinople by the early 1600s, and so on.)
In his memoir "The Black Dog of Fate" Peter Balakian gives a breakdown like this for a relative branch of the family named Shekerlemejian: "şeker" is Turkish for "sugar" and "şekerleme" is "things made with sugar" so a candy seller got an occupational name and then their child got the patronymic form.
All of this to say: there's an n=1 elsewhere for this happening to Ottoman Armenians.
All of this to say: there's an n=1 elsewhere for this happening to Ottoman Armenians.
Sounds like the word came first, then the cymbals, then the word-as-name.
It's not a Crapper situation where cymbals are named after this guy
It's not a Crapper situation where cymbals are named after this guy
"Crapper" as slang for a toilet has an attestation from before Thomas Crapper was a plumber, so if that's what you were referring to, then it's also not a case where it was named after the guy.
So poor Thomas was a victim of nominative determinism?
Mostly. He made significant improvements to the toilet (they already existed). And his last name was then forever destined be the butt (...) of jokes.
>> forever destined be the butt (...) of jokes.
Just like Uranus (and everybody else's)
Just like Uranus (and everybody else's)
I wonder if anyone's bothered to assay their alloy to reverse engineer it.
It's B20 bronze (80% copper, 20% tin).
Robert Zildjian explained it's not the formula that's the secret, but the process for manufacturing cymbals without cracking since B20 is so brittle.
Robert Zildjian explained it's not the formula that's the secret, but the process for manufacturing cymbals without cracking since B20 is so brittle.
I'd be shocked if they hadn't. Particularly, cymbal makers who have already mapped out the other parts of the process. In fact they may already be using the same or similar alloys. Consider that violins are all made from approximately the same materials.
It's a day's work in the right spectroscopy lab. A bit more difficult to figure out is how to turn the cast blank into a cymbal.
And, finding a place in a mature market.
It's a day's work in the right spectroscopy lab. A bit more difficult to figure out is how to turn the cast blank into a cymbal.
And, finding a place in a mature market.
The "How it's Made" for cymbals is a Zildjian factory. By the time this was made, there were already many competitors, so I doubt anything in the video wasn't already replicated by Sabian, Paiste, etc., but it's still interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYGRcbKOt4U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYGRcbKOt4U
Italians also got into cymbal-making during the 20th century, the upshot of which was apparently that some of the post-WWII British cymbals branded as "Zyn" were made by Italian POWs (or maybe ex-POWs?)
Interestingly, Sabian is the same family as Zildjian. I believe the owners at the time of separation were brothers Robert (who separated out the Sabian line in Canada naming it after his children) and Armand who took the Zildjian line in Massachusetts.
There is a rich tradition of secret sauce Armenian-American businesses splitting in half in this way. Zankou Chicken forked, for instance, however much more acrimoniously.
So he did manage to turn copper and tin into gold, just indirectly ;) Alchemy vindicated, at last!
> "Zildji" (zilci) means "cymbalist"/"cymbal-maker", or more generically, "bell-maker" in Turkish.
Zil actually comes the Persian word (زیر) that means (1) below, and (2) treble.
Zil actually comes the Persian word (زیر) that means (1) below, and (2) treble.
it ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no cymbalistson, no, no*
> The whole word means something like "Cymbalistson"
it means, literally, son of the cymbal maker
it means, literally, son of the cymbal maker
The lesson I get from this is that people were less attached to their last names, and called themselves whatever they wanted.
> people were less attached to their last names
More like people didn't have last names in the Ottoman empire, so they were usually called by their fathers' names, or nicknames. Surnames were officially started to be enforced in 1934, long after the Ottoman empire collapsed and the Rebublic of Turkey was founded.
More like people didn't have last names in the Ottoman empire, so they were usually called by their fathers' names, or nicknames. Surnames were officially started to be enforced in 1934, long after the Ottoman empire collapsed and the Rebublic of Turkey was founded.
I suspect that many surnames came from vocations, like "Smith," or "Zuckerman" ("Sugar-Man" -probably a candy-maker).
That's only like a decade after the Ottoman empire was dissolved.
All surnames derived from occupations started at certain point of time. Ancestors of Tailor, Smith, Miller, Fletcher, Fisher, Cooper, etc. had different last names at certain time in past. If a change didn't occur these "occupational" names would not exist.
A change in surname is not necessary, just a transition from no surname to surname, which happened relatively recently in many places, or from explicit parentage descriptions ("X son of Y", etc.) to inherited family names.
Maybe. Often when families immigrated to America they tried to pick a spelling that would allow English speakers to pronounce their name close enough to what they were used to that they would understand they were being called. Sometimes the this was a different English word that had nothing to do with the meaning in the original language. (I suspect the same happens with immigrants elsewhere, but I know my family name is based on getting close to the original sound and that happens to be a word that has a different meaning in English)
I don't know if the original word was a occupation back in the old world or not. (the dialect my family spoke is no longer spoken so it would be difficult to research)
I don't know if the original word was a occupation back in the old world or not. (the dialect my family spoke is no longer spoken so it would be difficult to research)
> Often when families immigrated to America they tried to pick a spelling that would allow English speakers to pronounce their name close enough to what they were used to that they would understand they were being called. Sometimes the this was a different English word that had nothing to do with the meaning in the original language.
This is also the naming process for some places in the new world like Cuernavaca in Mexico
This is also the naming process for some places in the new world like Cuernavaca in Mexico
Pretty sure that if they're in English, it happened around the time William the Conqueror did the Domesday book, the first census of England.
But this was also common in Germany, France, and Italy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Occupational_surnames
So it's very likely it is just a normal thing humans tend to do. Except I don't know much European history so I can't tell if those places got it from England
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Occupational_surnames
So it's very likely it is just a normal thing humans tend to do. Except I don't know much European history so I can't tell if those places got it from England
right, I'm just putting a date on it for anyone wondering about when it happened in English. I have no idea when people got last names in those countries. Also they didn't have different last names before they got these names, they just didn't have last names at all.
Some are locations etc
Well, consider what position you are in when someone with absolute power over your life and death grants you a new name as a sign of favor. Do you risk rejecting it and potentially endangering yourself and your entire family?
Maybe so, but in this specific instance, it was Ottoman Sultan Mustafa I who bestowed the last name to the cymbal-maker Avedis.
Something to ponder when hearing those proud family stories…
Zildjian's original craftsmanship actually lives on in Istanbul. Mehmet Tamdeger, who began apprenticing at age nine under Mikhail Zilcan (grandson of Kerope Zilcan, of K series fame) and master smith Kirkor Kucukyan, continued the traditional techniques from the 1950s K. Zilcan factory in Istanbul.
What's fascinating is that Tamdeger and master smith Agop Tomurcuk preserved these methods by founding "Istanbul" cymbals. Initially exporting to the US under "Zildjiler" before switching to "Istanbul" in 1984, each cymbal was personally signed by both masters. After Agop's unexpected death in 1996, Mehmet continued under "Istanbul Mehmet", maintaining the 17th-century hand-crafting methods with the philosophy "Machines don't have ears."
The cymbals they make are particularly sought after by jazz drummers for what's known as the "old K sound" - referring to the original K Zildjians made in its place of birth.
Here is one for sale:
https://soundsanatolian.com/products/istanbul-mehmet-22-mika...
What's fascinating is that Tamdeger and master smith Agop Tomurcuk preserved these methods by founding "Istanbul" cymbals. Initially exporting to the US under "Zildjiler" before switching to "Istanbul" in 1984, each cymbal was personally signed by both masters. After Agop's unexpected death in 1996, Mehmet continued under "Istanbul Mehmet", maintaining the 17th-century hand-crafting methods with the philosophy "Machines don't have ears."
The cymbals they make are particularly sought after by jazz drummers for what's known as the "old K sound" - referring to the original K Zildjians made in its place of birth.
Here is one for sale:
https://soundsanatolian.com/products/istanbul-mehmet-22-mika...
I thought I was true Zildjian head but had no idea they shared common ties with Istanbul (the brand). This is super fascinating, thanks for sharing.
That is shockingly inexpensive
yep drums and cymbals are very expensive. Beginner cymbals are ~$300 for a pack (hi hat, crash, ride). Intermediate/pro cymbals are easily $400-500 a piece
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ZP4PK--zildjian-plan...
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/K0731--zildjian-k-sw...
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ZP4PK--zildjian-plan...
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/K0731--zildjian-k-sw...
I said inexpensive
What's inexpensive about it? Why do you think it should cost more? This is a very typical cost for a single component of an instrument that can get very costly.
Cymbals arent cheap per se, but relative to other instruments they are. A professional saxophone is on the order of $7000 to $20,000. A professional violin can easily be $50,000 and sought after violin's as high as $20 million. Zildjian cymbals for a few hundred dollars are one of the few places a random beginner can consider buying the same instrument used by world level talent.
1 cymbal isn't the instrument though. You're buying a drum set (5 drums typically), a handful of cymbals, stands, etc.
It's also generally accessible to get the same <guitars, bass guitars, keyboards> used by professional musicians. "Concert instruments" less so yes
It's also generally accessible to get the same <guitars, bass guitars, keyboards> used by professional musicians. "Concert instruments" less so yes
Its a very high end cymbal hand made, I would expect like at least 600 for a 20" ride. 400 is standard cost for a mass made 20"
I guess not shockingly inexpensive, but seems like a prerty damn good deal
I guess not shockingly inexpensive, but seems like a prerty damn good deal
A family dispute led to the founding of Sabian Cymbals in New Brunswick, Canada, in 1981. The products of both companies are considered amongst the best by percussionists.
>Sabian Cymbals in New Brunswick, Canada, in 1981.
Based on various interviews about the history of Zildjian & Sabian brothers splitting up, the Sabian Canada factory was originally a Zildjian 2nd site purposely placed outside of the USA.
The brothers felt the Zildjian Canada factory solved 2 problems:
1) contingency factory that wasn't affected by unionizing labor in Boston MA.
2) easier (cheaper?) export logistics to Europe market from Canada. Don't remember the exact details.
Deep link to Robert Zildjian interview talking in "polite language" about the union labor unrest as one motivation for creating the Canada factory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv30TRytOk4&t=13m28s
Another interview talked about the Europe market but I can't find that video.
That Sabian interview always stuck with me because it isn't just the big companies like Amazon, Tesla, Starbucks, etc avoiding unionization. It's also the small family companies like Zildjian that worked around unions. Another video somewhere had the other Zildjian brother (Armand) talk about the unions but he wasn't as polite.
EDIT to add another interview from Paul Francis (podcast mp3) about Zildjian opening the Canada factory in 1968 in response to the Teamsters unionization efforts in the USA. Relevant section starts at 45m20s : https://www.discussionsinpercussion.com/home/2020/2/5/162-pa...
Based on various interviews about the history of Zildjian & Sabian brothers splitting up, the Sabian Canada factory was originally a Zildjian 2nd site purposely placed outside of the USA.
The brothers felt the Zildjian Canada factory solved 2 problems:
1) contingency factory that wasn't affected by unionizing labor in Boston MA.
2) easier (cheaper?) export logistics to Europe market from Canada. Don't remember the exact details.
Deep link to Robert Zildjian interview talking in "polite language" about the union labor unrest as one motivation for creating the Canada factory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv30TRytOk4&t=13m28s
Another interview talked about the Europe market but I can't find that video.
That Sabian interview always stuck with me because it isn't just the big companies like Amazon, Tesla, Starbucks, etc avoiding unionization. It's also the small family companies like Zildjian that worked around unions. Another video somewhere had the other Zildjian brother (Armand) talk about the unions but he wasn't as polite.
EDIT to add another interview from Paul Francis (podcast mp3) about Zildjian opening the Canada factory in 1968 in response to the Teamsters unionization efforts in the USA. Relevant section starts at 45m20s : https://www.discussionsinpercussion.com/home/2020/2/5/162-pa...
> It's also the small family companies like Zildjian that worked around unions
Employers dont like instability, period. They want continuous, headache-free production. Unions can cause instability. (Whether it's justified or not is a separate matter.) So...
Of course, unions in the US are an extremely weird beast, and for all the good that some of them do, there are or were many that simply took the dues and bought nice houses for the leadership. When anti-union legislators started poking about in the 1970s there were plenty of workers all too happy to give the union the middle finger, based on their own experiences of being ignored, mistreated, or horrified by the local union. (That's not to imply that the legislators had workers' interests at heart, of course.)
Employers dont like instability, period. They want continuous, headache-free production. Unions can cause instability. (Whether it's justified or not is a separate matter.) So...
Of course, unions in the US are an extremely weird beast, and for all the good that some of them do, there are or were many that simply took the dues and bought nice houses for the leadership. When anti-union legislators started poking about in the 1970s there were plenty of workers all too happy to give the union the middle finger, based on their own experiences of being ignored, mistreated, or horrified by the local union. (That's not to imply that the legislators had workers' interests at heart, of course.)
> Of course, unions in the US are an extremely weird beast, and for all the good that some of them do, there are or were many that simply took the dues and bought nice houses for the leadership.
It isn’t just in the US that there are weird beasts. In Australia, there is this union called the Shop, Distributive and Allied Employees' Association (SDA). They are the main union for retail and fast food employees. The employers like them because they are rather moderate and keen to reach “understandings”, plus they will fight hard to keep more radical unions off their turf. Employers would even encourage their employees to join it. For many years they were controlled by socially conservative Roman Catholics, who used the union as a political and financial base to oppose same-sex marriage, abortion, IVF, etc, despite the fact those most of their members (who skew younger and the clear majority of whom aren’t Catholic) didn’t share those views and didn’t realise their union dues were paying for views they probably didn’t share. It is only in the last decade or so that the tension between the leadership and the membership over social issues got to the point that the leadership realised they had to move to neutrality or risk losing control of the union, so they did what they had to do
It isn’t just in the US that there are weird beasts. In Australia, there is this union called the Shop, Distributive and Allied Employees' Association (SDA). They are the main union for retail and fast food employees. The employers like them because they are rather moderate and keen to reach “understandings”, plus they will fight hard to keep more radical unions off their turf. Employers would even encourage their employees to join it. For many years they were controlled by socially conservative Roman Catholics, who used the union as a political and financial base to oppose same-sex marriage, abortion, IVF, etc, despite the fact those most of their members (who skew younger and the clear majority of whom aren’t Catholic) didn’t share those views and didn’t realise their union dues were paying for views they probably didn’t share. It is only in the last decade or so that the tension between the leadership and the membership over social issues got to the point that the leadership realised they had to move to neutrality or risk losing control of the union, so they did what they had to do
That was way more interesting than a couple of hundred words about unions had any right to be. Thank you.
Labor disputes in the US led to the first use of arial bombardment by government aircraft. The Tulsa Massacre had some bombardment but it was strictly amateur/enthusiast, not government.
Honestly the first time I’ve heard ‘amateur/enthusiast’ and ‘aerial bombardment’ in the same sentence.
>Employers dont like instability, period. They want continuous, headache-free production. Unions can cause instability. (Whether it's justified or not is a separate matter.) So...
Which is an interesting perspective in its own way, as for example when Volkswagen came to the US, they demanded that employees unionize as they felt it would allow greater stability by having content employees and a single entity to negotiate with.
Which is an interesting perspective in its own way, as for example when Volkswagen came to the US, they demanded that employees unionize as they felt it would allow greater stability by having content employees and a single entity to negotiate with.
VW likely expected their relationship with unions in the US to be similar to Germany (from my understanding, the relationship between large companies, unions and government in Germany is somewhat unusual). I assume the reality came as a bit of a shock!
> Employers dont like instability, period. They want continuous, headache-free production. Unions can cause instability.
Unions cause cost and bargaining.
If all you want is simplicity, stability and throwing money at the problem, instead of dealing with each of your employee's individual asks and try to gauge what's the most common complaint, you deal with a single entity.
Now I'm sure the US have a ton more baggage regarding unions, but we'd then come down to feelings and history, more than arguable reasons.
Unions cause cost and bargaining.
If all you want is simplicity, stability and throwing money at the problem, instead of dealing with each of your employee's individual asks and try to gauge what's the most common complaint, you deal with a single entity.
Now I'm sure the US have a ton more baggage regarding unions, but we'd then come down to feelings and history, more than arguable reasons.
Some Unions in the US also have a lot of association with the mob, and can sometimes overdo things to everyone’s detriment. It’s a more co-operative, less ‘goose with the golden egg’ type situation in Germany.
My understanding is that both sides had a lot of association with the mob ?
I skooped this article randomly, but I see it as common knowledge that as long as the mob is powerful enough, anyone with money and enough to lose will either be pray or collaborating with mobs:
https://deadlinedetroit.com/articles/9488/henry_ford_s_gangs...
I skooped this article randomly, but I see it as common knowledge that as long as the mob is powerful enough, anyone with money and enough to lose will either be pray or collaborating with mobs:
https://deadlinedetroit.com/articles/9488/henry_ford_s_gangs...
If I'm not mistaking the maffia also had a big part in unions?
Some of them for sure (shoutout to Jimmy Hoffa), and that's certainly a common and widespread public perception, but at no point in american history has organized crime really moved the needle towards unionization.
Every union is different, though. Learn your history!
Every union is different, though. Learn your history!
Pretty sure unions provide much more stability for members
Not really. If you are high up they do, but a lot of juniors end up leaving when times are bad because the union doesn't have work and so they are sitting in some union hall waiting for work making much less that minimum wage (unemployment) - if they find a job elsewhere to make ends meet when times get good they start at the bottom. Even if the job is with a different union they still start at the bottom, but more likely it is with a non-union shop hiring for a temporary job.
Each union is different. Not all of them have the above. However many unions are in areas where the business cycles affect them, some years there is more demand for their work than others and when there is a down year they can't provide stability for all members. When times are tight companies first stop building new buildings and so anyone in construction will have years of low demand.
Each union is different. Not all of them have the above. However many unions are in areas where the business cycles affect them, some years there is more demand for their work than others and when there is a down year they can't provide stability for all members. When times are tight companies first stop building new buildings and so anyone in construction will have years of low demand.
> Employers dont like instability, period.
Employers don't like to pay their employees more than the bare minimum, period. Whether that is out of greed or "just economics" is in the eyes of the beholder.
Employers don't like to pay their employees more than the bare minimum, period. Whether that is out of greed or "just economics" is in the eyes of the beholder.
[deleted]
What happened with Paul Francis? There must have been some sort of shakeup in the company. He was the front person and lead cymbal maker for so long —practically his entire life — and all of a sudden he was gone without any official word.
Being the CEO of a cymbal company is hard. You ride and then you crash.
>It's also the small family companies like Zildjian that worked around unions.
It's surprising to you that no businesses of any size like unions? It's like finding out mice don't like cats regardless of size.
It's surprising to you that no businesses of any size like unions? It's like finding out mice don't like cats regardless of size.
There are companies that get along just fine with their unions. There are a number of advantages to the company of having a good union.
Most unions think their job is to fight management though and so are full of anti-management propaganda and so workers who are well treated convince themselves they need to stick it to the evil management. Thus ensuring management and the union cannot get along.
Don't read the above as saying that management is all good. Only that unions often needless make things worse.
Most unions think their job is to fight management though and so are full of anti-management propaganda and so workers who are well treated convince themselves they need to stick it to the evil management. Thus ensuring management and the union cannot get along.
Don't read the above as saying that management is all good. Only that unions often needless make things worse.
>There are companies that get along just fine with their unions.
Which are these companies?
Which are these companies?
Is the implication that the employees of the company are the cats and not the mice?
The employees are the grain I guess.
Well, the unions are the cats. The individual employees... not so much.
In their defence, the implementation of unions in the US is a bastardization of the concept. Just a bunch of fat cats making bank at the top while looking out for their own interests. Look at the Teamsters or the dockworkers union currently for example.
Yup - short for SAlly BIlly ANdy Zildjian
Fun fact: Sabian avoids the use of the name "Zildjian", even to refer to family members. They usually only write "Z". Robert Zildjian was routinely referred to as "RZ" and his son Andy as AZ.
IIRC the terms of the argeement under which the intra-family dispute was settled required Sabian to avoid advertising the Zildjian connection, so I assume they're being careful about that.
> Sabian is a Canadian cymbal manufacturing company based in New Brunswick. It was established in 1981 in the village of Meductic, which is now part of Lakeland Ridges, where the company is still headquartered. Sabian is considered one of the big four manufacturers of cymbals, along with Zildjian, Meinl and Paiste.[2]
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabian_Cymbals
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabian_Cymbals
As a long time drummer and studio engineer and so on I'd say that there's definitely a hierarchy, where Zildjian and Meinl are considered the best, and Sabian and Paiste are a step down.
But like all matters of taste that's arguable, and someone will probably come along and argue it. That's my impression of how drummers view the brands though.
But like all matters of taste that's arguable, and someone will probably come along and argue it. That's my impression of how drummers view the brands though.
Came here to say this. The origin of Sabian is a neat story. It also makes me thing of the Dassler brothers and Adidas / Puma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassler_brothers_feud
I was about to comment this so instead I'll comment that Aldi (Trader Joes) and Lidl also arose out of a familial dispute over whether or not to sell alcohol.
Don’t forget the Russian and Turkish Baths in the east village (NYC) - my favorite instance of a familial dispute resulting in a business splitting. Now it is two businesses occupying the same physical location, but different temporal locations: when you get a pass it’s only valid for certain days of the week depending on which brother’s business you purchased it for.
I think you mean Aldi Nord and Aldi Sud, _reportedly_ split over a dispute about selling cigarettes. Lidl is not related.
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I'm a long time fan of Sabian cymbals but good lord their new logo is so awful. The old one was way better and it's especially bad when compared to Zildjian's iconic logo.
Yeah. I have no idea what they had in mind when they pulled off this logo that looks like was designed in wordart in the 90s.
There's 4 brands that essentially dominate the market
Zildjian
Sabian (started by Robert Zildjian)
Meinl (German)
Paiste (Swiss)
Zildjian
Sabian (started by Robert Zildjian)
Meinl (German)
Paiste (Swiss)
I use a mix of cymbals, also Zildjian, and the last years I've moved more to Istanbul cymbals but did not know this part of history and the connection the craft had to the old city. It is not surprising, though. Istanbul has a history as a cultural center since the Roman empire and before, holding its position long after Rome fell. It is one of my favorite cities in the world because of the mix of cultures across crafts and arts, and people - also within music. It's role in the cymbal and drum making history just adds to my impression. Istanbul unfortunately currently is a shadow of what it was, after many years of Erdogan and his followers' efforts to make Turkey less liberal and secular. I do hope history will show that this will turn, and that Istanbul will continue to be a metropol of blended cultures and creativity.
People on here just can't seem to comment without the political cheap-shots. Believe it or not, you can enjoy a thing/place/etc without "americanizing" it (making everything political).
I thought Istanbul was amazingly rich in terms of culture, food, etc as well as fairly liberal and safe. Didn't think twice about who's in charge nor cared. Can't wait to go back.
I thought Istanbul was amazingly rich in terms of culture, food, etc as well as fairly liberal and safe. Didn't think twice about who's in charge nor cared. Can't wait to go back.
I am not from America, and do not favor Americanizing anything. I enjoy Istanbul, was there last summer actually, and love the city. I just point out what's been happing with the city the last 15 to 20 years, and that this is mostly due to political reasons, connected to the conservative and religious party of Erdogan. You should not mistake a comment made out of love for the city to be a comment of how things are better in the US or trying to make everything political. That is to give me intentions I do not have.
Funny to see this here today. I just bought a K Sweet cymbal pack yesterday from Guitar Center because I'm finally getting my drums back out after nearly a decade and my cymbal case (of Sabians) was stolen a few years ago from my storage unit. They sound amazing and hit the perfect balance for me.
I had my drums in storage and a friend asked to borrow my Zildjians because he was going on tour. The ride especially had a nice sound. I ran into him about five years later, and remembered to ask about my cymbals. He just said, "Oh, I sold those." I guess he forgot the part about him "borrowing" them. :-)
Something similar happened to me. i wanted to learn guitar, so my sister’s friend lent me his fairly cheap Stratocaster IIRC, and after some months we were going to move pretty far away. we tried contacting the friend to give him back the guitar but could never connect. it’s been 18 years and i still have it. heh.
I play K Sweet too! I love them.
I'd be interested in the history of the Zildjian trademark, which is an iconic masterpiece of design by this point. It looks like it was intended to evoke the flowing calligraphy of the older Arabic trademark ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avedis_Zildjian_Company#/media... ), though in truth it looks like a fairly ordinary application of Latin Uncial script (the "d" and especially the "a" are a dead giveaway).
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The Turks would be very displeased with you calling it "their Arabic trademark".
The Ottoman Turkish alphabet (which I assume the logo in the linked article uses) uses the Arabic script, so the letters are the same. I don't think a British person would be offended to know that the English alphabet is based on the Latin script, even if they aren't Romans themselves.
The English alphabet was directly derived from the Roman alphabet, as were they direct descendants of the Romans. The Turkish alphabet on the other hand, was derived from the Persian alphabet, which used the Arabic script only after the cultural destruction and subjugation of Persia post the Islamic conquests. The Persian script has a number of letters and sounds commonly found in Indo-Aryan languages, but not in Semitic languages such as Arabic or Hebrew, one example being the P sound.
There's a good reason why Reza Pahlavi's move to rename Persia (itself a foreign-derived name) to the original name of Eran/Iran was extremely popular amongst the Iranians.
There's a good reason why Reza Pahlavi's move to rename Persia (itself a foreign-derived name) to the original name of Eran/Iran was extremely popular amongst the Iranians.
I know the usual Iranian nationalist narrative but it's weird to see it here.
Especially considering that the Ottoman Turkish alphabet based on the Persian variant of the Arabic script also didn't map all the sounds that are required in Turkish. They also probably didn't pick the arabo-persian script because of those commonly found sounds in Indo-Aryan(European?) languages considering that Turkish isn't an indo-european language and is in a family of its own... So there's a very loose link here.
And while I'm not sure about the circumstances of the adoption of the Arabic script in Iran, the Turks were conquerors basically from the beginning and chose the Arabic script entirely willingly. There's no colonial or imperialist implications to calling Turkish arabic script... arabic.
(Not that it wouldn't even really matter, the letters in question are unquestionably arabic script anyways. The Romans sure did subjugate Britain and france, and brutally repressed them, but that doesn't make the script they use any less Latin!)
Especially considering that the Ottoman Turkish alphabet based on the Persian variant of the Arabic script also didn't map all the sounds that are required in Turkish. They also probably didn't pick the arabo-persian script because of those commonly found sounds in Indo-Aryan(European?) languages considering that Turkish isn't an indo-european language and is in a family of its own... So there's a very loose link here.
And while I'm not sure about the circumstances of the adoption of the Arabic script in Iran, the Turks were conquerors basically from the beginning and chose the Arabic script entirely willingly. There's no colonial or imperialist implications to calling Turkish arabic script... arabic.
(Not that it wouldn't even really matter, the letters in question are unquestionably arabic script anyways. The Romans sure did subjugate Britain and france, and brutally repressed them, but that doesn't make the script they use any less Latin!)
English is not directly descended from Latin, nor are English people directly descended from ancient Romans. (You don't need a formal study to prove this -- just use your eyes. The typical English person and the typical Italian don't look the same.)
There are also lots of sounds in English that don't exist in Latin; for example, most of the vowels (English has roughly 15-20 vowel sounds; Latin has 5 or 6).
There are also lots of sounds in English that don't exist in Latin; for example, most of the vowels (English has roughly 15-20 vowel sounds; Latin has 5 or 6).
Two modern groups of people looking different does not necessarily prove a lack of common ancestry. The people of the past in a certain place did not necessarily look like the people of the present in that same place.
In particular, the reason why modern English are not really descended from ancient Romans is because the people who were (at least partially; they were known as Romano-British) got displaced by larger numbers of other people, principally Norse and Germanic peoples from the continent (especially Anglo-Saxons and Normans).
Moreover, the history of Italy is quite different in the specifics but actually has some similarities in the broad strokes. Germanic peoples from the north, Norse peoples from the sea, and (more uniquely) North African peoples from the south, have all through migration, displacement, and interrelations shaped the ancestry of modern Italians.
In particular, the reason why modern English are not really descended from ancient Romans is because the people who were (at least partially; they were known as Romano-British) got displaced by larger numbers of other people, principally Norse and Germanic peoples from the continent (especially Anglo-Saxons and Normans).
Moreover, the history of Italy is quite different in the specifics but actually has some similarities in the broad strokes. Germanic peoples from the north, Norse peoples from the sea, and (more uniquely) North African peoples from the south, have all through migration, displacement, and interrelations shaped the ancestry of modern Italians.
English is directly descended from German AND Latin. There is more German, but Latin (via French) has had enough influence that you can argue that English is also descended from Latin.
You mean proto-Germanic (from which German also descends), not German. Saying English descends from German is sort of like saying French descends from Italian.
As for the main point: no serious historical linguist argues that English is descended from Latin. Yes, English superficially has lots of Latin vocabulary, but the phonology, syntax, basic words, etc. are still thoroughly Germanic. Phonology being particularly relevant since this thread is about how well an alphabet matches a language's sound inventory.
As for the main point: no serious historical linguist argues that English is descended from Latin. Yes, English superficially has lots of Latin vocabulary, but the phonology, syntax, basic words, etc. are still thoroughly Germanic. Phonology being particularly relevant since this thread is about how well an alphabet matches a language's sound inventory.
Linguistically English works nothing like Latin
The English alphabet uses the Latin script, not that the language itself is based on Latin.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
The comment you responded to was just saying that the alphabet was inherited from Rome, not the language
Even still, I wasn't aware that Ottoman Turkish had its own alphabet, even if it still uses the Arabic script, so I don't mind the clarification.
Are you sure gp meant Arabic the script, but not the language? If latter, it would be completely wrong (because it is Ottoman Turkish), if former, it would be slightly inaccurate.
I think so! Since they are referring to the characters in their old logo, which is (to my eyes) Ottoman Turkish alphabet, which is perso-arabic script. Did I get it wrong?
Hm yes, they probably meant script then. Fwiw, It reads "Avedis Zilciyan şirketi - Avedis Zilciyan company" of course the funny thing about Ottoman Turkish is that it is heavily influenced by Arabic, persian and later French, so the the sentence has a persian root (Zil) an arabic root (Şirket) 2 Turkish suffixes, -ci and -i , an armenian suffix and an Armenian proper name.
The Armenian Zildjians might be displeased to be called Turks.
Their ancestors were citizens of Ottoman empire and their business exits because of Sultans patronage. Who knows how they feel about the connection, yours is only speculation.
Considering they received their start through the patronage of the Ottoman Emperor, I doubt that, else that element would have been erased from their history. Turks, maybe not, but Ottomans they were.
They moved the business to the US before the genocide though (and in good time too!), so not sure how they would have been affected.
They moved the business to the US before the genocide though (and in good time too!), so not sure how they would have been affected.
But after the Hamidian Massacres and the generally bloody 1890s.
I grew up in the town next door to Norwell and I play the drums. I drove by many times and would have loved to have gone in and seen if they might have given a high school student a quick tour of the less-secret parts of the factory, but I never did.
There was definitely a strong drumming community in the area; there were some fantastic players and teachers around (i.e. Steve Smith from Journey was born in Whitman). Not sure if that's because of Zildjian, but it was a fun place to grow up and play music. It might just be that there are so many strong music universities in the area.
There was definitely a strong drumming community in the area; there were some fantastic players and teachers around (i.e. Steve Smith from Journey was born in Whitman). Not sure if that's because of Zildjian, but it was a fun place to grow up and play music. It might just be that there are so many strong music universities in the area.
I'm a relatively new drummer (<2 yrs as a hobby), but I'm not impressed with Zildjian so far. The cymbals have never sounded good to me - sounds "dirty" - and they feel fragile like they'd break easily. Guitar Center highly recommended their drumsticks, but after using them, I found they break easily and don't feel "right" (not sure how to pinpoint the exact issue) compared to Vic Firth sticks I have (which are excellent).
I'm not sure if this is an atypical experience with the brand or not.
I'm not sure if this is an atypical experience with the brand or not.
You have to consider that when you are a new drummer you won't have good control of your power. So you will tend to hit things a lot harder just to keep up. This means you will break sticks and cymbals more often.
I have been playing for 10+ years that was a huge problem for me, but eventually your mind will adapt to dynamic nature of keeping time. I feel most people think keeping time as a singular action, but its mostly managing dynamics and spacing of music. Cymbals are fundamental to accomplish that.
I will say that I personally prefer Sabian since I am a rock/metal drummer. But Zildjian cymbals are thinner and softer they will have less volume but a brighter and more lush sound. Most of their products are designed for softer Jazz and Pop playing. If you want something in between Paiste and Meinl try to fill that gap.
I have been playing for 10+ years that was a huge problem for me, but eventually your mind will adapt to dynamic nature of keeping time. I feel most people think keeping time as a singular action, but its mostly managing dynamics and spacing of music. Cymbals are fundamental to accomplish that.
I will say that I personally prefer Sabian since I am a rock/metal drummer. But Zildjian cymbals are thinner and softer they will have less volume but a brighter and more lush sound. Most of their products are designed for softer Jazz and Pop playing. If you want something in between Paiste and Meinl try to fill that gap.
I actually don't hit too hard since I started on a Roland e-drum set and if you hit too hard on those, you risk breaking the pads, so I think I developed better stick control from that. On my acoustic set, I've only ever broken the Zildjian sticks and some cheapo Amazon brand ones. The Vic Firth have held up for over 2 years.
I also use the Sabian AAX line and it works great. I like to play along with rock, hip-hop, and pop. I found the Sabian's to be a good middle ground for now.
Judging by the feedback I'm getting in other comments, I guess the Zildjians are not any less reliable than the Sabians (and I understand the Sabians are derived from Zildjian anyway?). I'll have to give them another go at some point.
I also use the Sabian AAX line and it works great. I like to play along with rock, hip-hop, and pop. I found the Sabian's to be a good middle ground for now.
Judging by the feedback I'm getting in other comments, I guess the Zildjians are not any less reliable than the Sabians (and I understand the Sabians are derived from Zildjian anyway?). I'll have to give them another go at some point.
Except if it's ZBT like someone else said you should not be breaking cymbals that frequently, or even at all (hot debate in the drum community).
One good way to hit cymbals properly, especially crashes, is to have them not totally horizontal and making a "woosh" movement rather than a straight attack.
Another secret about drums in general is that, counterintuitively, hitting them hard often choke the sound rather than making it louder (all about projection).
And it's the best instrument there is ;)
One good way to hit cymbals properly, especially crashes, is to have them not totally horizontal and making a "woosh" movement rather than a straight attack.
Another secret about drums in general is that, counterintuitively, hitting them hard often choke the sound rather than making it louder (all about projection).
And it's the best instrument there is ;)
sticks are super personal and the breakage you'll find has a lot to do with things like thickness but also the wood, Vic Firth are hickory sticks which last a lot longer than a maple stick for example. (it also depends on how you are hitting things, what volume level, where you're hitting the stick, etc). but if a stick doesn't feel "right" that's not usually a stick quality issue it's just a weight balance that isn't your fit.
that said I've not seen too many people using zildjian drumsticks, vic firth, pro mark tend to be the two big names.
the cymbal thing is a whole different ballgame. if you're whacking the cymbals really hard and you're looking for a clean sound, you'd want to get thicker cymbals with less hammering that are more oriented towards hard rock playing. because yes if you have a pricey zildjian crash and you're slamming it all the time, it will crack eventually (sooner for a thinner cymbal) and that is not too abnormal of an incident. you might get more bang for your buck with a Paiste Rude cymbal.
that said I've not seen too many people using zildjian drumsticks, vic firth, pro mark tend to be the two big names.
the cymbal thing is a whole different ballgame. if you're whacking the cymbals really hard and you're looking for a clean sound, you'd want to get thicker cymbals with less hammering that are more oriented towards hard rock playing. because yes if you have a pricey zildjian crash and you're slamming it all the time, it will crack eventually (sooner for a thinner cymbal) and that is not too abnormal of an incident. you might get more bang for your buck with a Paiste Rude cymbal.
Zildjian cymbals are not any more prone to breaking than other manufacturers'. Whether they sound good to you is another story. :) It's hard to make that judgment about a product line so big and varied anyway.
These days I'm playing Sabians, mostly AAX. Not out of brand loyalty, just cause they all sound pretty good for what I do (loud, fast rock). But I've had a handful of Zildjians that I really enjoyed (wish I still had the 24" A Ping Ride that I broke in high school), some Paistes, a Meinl here, a Byzance there...
These days I'm playing Sabians, mostly AAX. Not out of brand loyalty, just cause they all sound pretty good for what I do (loud, fast rock). But I've had a handful of Zildjians that I really enjoyed (wish I still had the 24" A Ping Ride that I broke in high school), some Paistes, a Meinl here, a Byzance there...
What cymbal line have you used?
The "ZBT" cymbals I started on were not great (cheap, meant for beginners), but over time I've switched to the "A" series which sound comparatively great.
The "K" dry sound is even more impressive, albeit with an accompanying price tag.
The "ZBT" cymbals I started on were not great (cheap, meant for beginners), but over time I've switched to the "A" series which sound comparatively great.
The "K" dry sound is even more impressive, albeit with an accompanying price tag.
My kit is all K special dry customs and I love them. I haven't cracked or damaged them in 5+ years.
In my experience, pro marks last a long time. Personally, I really liked the Matt Halpern signature sticks (feels like a 2B but plays like a 5B). At the end of the day, it's how you hit the cymbals. If you hit with a sweeping motion away from the blade of the cymbal, then your sticks will last a lot longer and your cymbals will be less prone to cracking as well.
If you're interested in more unique sounds from cymbals, Meinl makes some great stuff.
If you're interested in more unique sounds from cymbals, Meinl makes some great stuff.
Interesting. I'm a pretty bad drummer due to difficulty keeping time (pretty damn important for a drummer :-D), but I love to play, and I've always loved Zildjian. Until the last few years I wasn't really able to afford them so frequently bought them used, but the crash especially just has a great sound to me. I am a big rock and metal type of person so that's probably a big factor.
as a recording studio engineer and drummer, a secret about Zildjians is that while they may not sound the best in the room, their recorded sound still has something special that others don't. whether it's the right sound for the song is a different question, but when you need it, you'll be hard pressed to find it with another company.
This is something I've found new drummers struggle with. They get a kit and cymbals, even nice ones, and they are dissatisfied that the live drums in the room don't sound as "good" as what they hear on the albums they're used to.
Recorded drums sound very different from live drums. It's just something you get used to after a while, but for years as a young drummer it really bothered me until I finally mic'd my kit and was like "oooohhhhh".
Recorded drums sound very different from live drums. It's just something you get used to after a while, but for years as a young drummer it really bothered me until I finally mic'd my kit and was like "oooohhhhh".
Great point. That's one of the many reasons I recommend earplugs or muffs, especially to new drummers. Even cheap foam earplugs cut out lots of midrange frequencies and can make your drums sound more like a record.
P-bass spirit.
What line of cymbals? A? K? Something else? Zildjian make quality stuff but maybe you'd prefer either a different line of theirs or another brand entirely like Meinl or Sabian. You never break as many sticks and cymbals than when you're relatively new to playing, also.
> Vic Firth
Fun fact, Vic Firth nowadays is part of Zildjian.
Fun fact, Vic Firth nowadays is part of Zildjian.
additional fun fact, they used to make pepper shakers and rolling pins, too. if you've got a mill, why not?
My mom worked for Shamrock Foods and was at a restaurant supply show and ended up meeting, of all people, Vic Firth, selling pepper grinders. She knew I owned Vic Firth sticks and he generously signed a pack of sticks for her to give to me. Said he was absolutely delightful. (This was probably ~15 or so years ago.)
I lived down the street from the old Zildjian plant in Quincy. It's amazing how much product they were able to produce in such a small space.
Sometime within the last ten years, it was knocked down and replaced with an apartment building even bigger than the plant.
Sometime within the last ten years, it was knocked down and replaced with an apartment building even bigger than the plant.
I've used to play in garage bands almost my whole live as a guitar and bass player. Standing next to the drummer.
Zyldjian is definitely the reason I am hearing impaired now!
And of course all the bad drummers (but good friends), not able to play dynamically, just loud! :-D
Drums are actually made to be able to fill medium sized halls, not so much to be used in a small garage. Drums are the reason why rock bands have to be so loud _still today_. Back in the days loud tube amps were also the reason..
I do not like drums, especially cymbals and snare drums, anymore.. But drum machines are great! :-)
Drums are actually made to be able to fill medium sized halls, not so much to be used in a small garage. Drums are the reason why rock bands have to be so loud _still today_. Back in the days loud tube amps were also the reason..
I do not like drums, especially cymbals and snare drums, anymore.. But drum machines are great! :-)
I feel you! My best friend is a drummer, and so many operational problems could be avoided by having him play an electronic drum or or other non acoustic percussion.
But it's really not the same thing, so we have to accommodate.
But it's really not the same thing, so we have to accommodate.
Take a look at the drum machine 'scrooge', esp on youtube.
It's got me well back into music (as well as vcv rack).
A lesson for countries. What a loss for Turkey!
They lost their Jews, Armenians & so much else.
Bizarre that we think of Italy, Japan even Korea for good coffee but rarely Turkey which is where it started.
They lost their Jews, Armenians & so much else.
Bizarre that we think of Italy, Japan even Korea for good coffee but rarely Turkey which is where it started.
> What a loss for Turkey!
Yes, and no. Mikael Zildjian stayed in Istanbul and made cymbals until his nephews asked him (in 1977) to stop making them and exporting to the USA.
Today, Mikael's apprentices Mehmet and Oksant are still manufacturing cymbals (under different brands, obviously, as they are not from the same family).
Yes, and no. Mikael Zildjian stayed in Istanbul and made cymbals until his nephews asked him (in 1977) to stop making them and exporting to the USA.
Today, Mikael's apprentices Mehmet and Oksant are still manufacturing cymbals (under different brands, obviously, as they are not from the same family).
as a keeper of their closely-guarded 400 year old alloy she doubled down, “The secret part will remain a secret.”
Nothing a little mass spectrometry won't reveal... and metallurgy has advanced a lot in 400 years.
It's interesting that in the first picture with the cymbal being cut on a lathe, there doesn't seem to be any precision measuring instruments visible. I suppose they've already simplified the process to preset stops and go/no-go gauges.
Nothing a little mass spectrometry won't reveal... and metallurgy has advanced a lot in 400 years.
It's interesting that in the first picture with the cymbal being cut on a lathe, there doesn't seem to be any precision measuring instruments visible. I suppose they've already simplified the process to preset stops and go/no-go gauges.
A version of the full history is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avedis_Zildjian_Company
It's not easy to summarize. I really recommend reading the whole thing.
> The company was founded in Constantinople in 1623 by Avedis Zildjian, an Armenian metalsmith and alchemist.
...
> After the death of Avedis, the business, and the secret for producing the metal, was handed down to several generations of male heirs.
...
> In 1850, Avedis II built a 25-foot schooner, in order to sail cymbals produced in Constantinople to trade exhibitions such as the Great Exhibition in London, and to supply musicians in Europe.
...
> Haroutune II's son Avedis III had left Armenia for the United States in 1909, and settled in Boston, where he established a family and a confectionary business. In 1927, he received a letter from his uncle Aram, informing him that he was to become heir to the family business, and Aram came to the US.
...
> Avedis III sought out jazz drummers like Gene Krupa to understand their needs.
It's not easy to summarize. I really recommend reading the whole thing.
> The company was founded in Constantinople in 1623 by Avedis Zildjian, an Armenian metalsmith and alchemist.
...
> After the death of Avedis, the business, and the secret for producing the metal, was handed down to several generations of male heirs.
...
> In 1850, Avedis II built a 25-foot schooner, in order to sail cymbals produced in Constantinople to trade exhibitions such as the Great Exhibition in London, and to supply musicians in Europe.
...
> Haroutune II's son Avedis III had left Armenia for the United States in 1909, and settled in Boston, where he established a family and a confectionary business. In 1927, he received a letter from his uncle Aram, informing him that he was to become heir to the family business, and Aram came to the US.
...
> Avedis III sought out jazz drummers like Gene Krupa to understand their needs.
I also recommend listening to the drum history podcast which has episodes with Zildjian and Sabian family members.
This is heartening to see; Much of what I read about business here are driven by selling the company after a few years as the explicit goal from the start.
Indeed, venture capital is a cancer, pumping out companies that never can and never will be profitable with the sole interest of increasingly centralized wealth.
A (very) mildly interesting tidbit...
I used to do IT for a vendor that injection-molded low durometer plastic washers for Zildjian. They placed a single large PO annually.
99% of the population would identify these as 'rubber' washers. Nope, they're polyurethane.
I used to do IT for a vendor that injection-molded low durometer plastic washers for Zildjian. They placed a single large PO annually.
99% of the population would identify these as 'rubber' washers. Nope, they're polyurethane.
I'm surprised. Most companies are moving to Just In time. A contract to supply for a year, and often secret insight into order books so the supplier can work with their supplier when they need things. You still need some buffer because interruptions will happen, but storing a years worth of use means you pay for space to store all that. (it gets worse if someone invents a better washer and now your inventory is obsolete)
>I'm surprised.
Maybe a company that predates most existing nations has bigger priorities than "perfect our profit spreadsheet by cutting every corner".
How much space do you think a year's worth of washers take up? They could easily be doing more frequent purchases for their larger inputs.
Seeing as they also predate science, they might have experience with things changing over time and how that affects supply. Or they don't, and it's much easier to weather bad events and business mistakes when your focus is on reliably producing high quality product for reasonable prices for centuries, to the point where your name is nearly synonymous with the product, your customers will always wait for you or come back.
Maybe, instead, those pushing "Just in time" everything should learn a thing or two from the company that has produced a reliably quality product for centuries.
Maybe a company that predates most existing nations has bigger priorities than "perfect our profit spreadsheet by cutting every corner".
How much space do you think a year's worth of washers take up? They could easily be doing more frequent purchases for their larger inputs.
Seeing as they also predate science, they might have experience with things changing over time and how that affects supply. Or they don't, and it's much easier to weather bad events and business mistakes when your focus is on reliably producing high quality product for reasonable prices for centuries, to the point where your name is nearly synonymous with the product, your customers will always wait for you or come back.
Maybe, instead, those pushing "Just in time" everything should learn a thing or two from the company that has produced a reliably quality product for centuries.
zildjian cymbal cases are popular in the tournament scrabble community for carrying round boards, though less so these days since foldable boards took over from the rigid ones.
>Since the 1970s, the Avedis Zildjian Co. has operated under the radar in Norwell, Massachusetts.
under the radar? maybe its because I'm a former Marching band kid that played the cymbals. but Zildjian is THE brand when it comes to cymbals.
under the radar? maybe its because I'm a former Marching band kid that played the cymbals. but Zildjian is THE brand when it comes to cymbals.
I think here under the radar means that locals didn't know the factory was there, not that Zildjian is an unknown brand, it even goes on to say
> Even in Massachusetts many people have no idea an industrial factory outside of Boston designs, casts, blasts, rolls, hammers, buffs and tests at least a million Zildjian cymbals each year.
> Even in Massachusetts many people have no idea an industrial factory outside of Boston designs, casts, blasts, rolls, hammers, buffs and tests at least a million Zildjian cymbals each year.
[deleted]
Very cool story. Not what I expected to find on HN but glad it was linked! I was born and raised in Massachusetts and know the Zildjian brand, but had absolutely no idea they were based there.
At college I was acquainted with one of the family who told me a story about when one of his uncles was in Egypt and on a tour of the pyramids or some ancient site. The guide said they had unearthed some bronze chisels used for stonecutting and their scientists had no idea how the alloy had been made that hard and tough. The uncle thought to himself "I know...", and smiled. He said they keep it very closely guarded, and have for centuries.
I'm sure any competent chemist could figure it out (though it may be some destructive tests and it will cost more money than they are likely willing to spend. For that matter any competent metallurgist can give you a modern alloy that is likely better (alloys are of course a compromise so better in one area may be worse in a different one). Not that is matters as anyone today who wants to cut stone will use modern steel not bronze (unless they are trying to reproduce the old methods which can sometimes be valuable for understanding)
Of course there are better alloys today for all those specific uses (likely except musical).
It was just a comment on the oddity that what the Egyptians were using had not yet been figured out, but that he knew. Despite all our vast current knowledge, there remain bits of arcane knowledge still hidden away in obscure corners.
It's definitely NOT the case that "any competent chemist could figure it out".
He'd also told me about an MIT team who had gotten closer than others to figuring it out, but gave up after the mixes/processes kept exploding on them. Definitely no lack of competence there, but maybe they did run out of budget or motivation to keep unintentionally blowing things up. It's not as trivial as you'd like to think.
It was just a comment on the oddity that what the Egyptians were using had not yet been figured out, but that he knew. Despite all our vast current knowledge, there remain bits of arcane knowledge still hidden away in obscure corners.
It's definitely NOT the case that "any competent chemist could figure it out".
He'd also told me about an MIT team who had gotten closer than others to figuring it out, but gave up after the mixes/processes kept exploding on them. Definitely no lack of competence there, but maybe they did run out of budget or motivation to keep unintentionally blowing things up. It's not as trivial as you'd like to think.
We've only pierced the secrets of matter using particle accelerators, but hopefully one day we'll figure out how middle easterners do bronze...
If you get interested in early cymbal makers, Zildjian can trace it's origins back to the 1600s... that's hard to beat. But there are many from the turn of the century that are just as good but less well known like XE Ajaha. We're also in a bit of a "Golden Age" for young independent cymbal smiths. So there are fabulous, hand-made cymbals being made every day now. It's all about the bronze.
> cymbals
...
> that's hard to beat.
:cough: I mean, they're not... that hard to beat... :cough:
:cough: I mean, they're not... that hard to beat... :cough:
Ba dum tss
The world is truly globalised. Zildjian has a unique place in my childhood due to the legendary drummer Sivamani, who collaborated extensively with AR Rahman.
1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivamani_(percussionist)
1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivamani_(percussionist)
This company is older than America...
From my extremely limited searching (Wikipedia) it's almost as old as the state itself.
From my extremely limited searching (Wikipedia) it's almost as old as the state itself.
What impressed me is not just the secret of the alloy and processing that stays for 400 years, but the fact that they have six hundred models of cymbals! Say, Fender offers about a dozen models of guitars, and guitars arguably have more tweakable parts that affect the sound, the manner of play, and just the exterior.
Cymbals have a surprising amount of things that can be tweaked on them. I'd also imagine it's far cheaper to manufacture a new model of cymbal than it is a new model of guitar.
That said, Fender lists hundreds of guitar models available on their website.
That said, Fender lists hundreds of guitar models available on their website.
There is a lot you can change on guitar. The wood species (including plywood) can get you 50 different models from otherwise the same patterns (there are hundreds of different wood possible, but not all of them will be compatible with your patterns - either not strong enough for the thickness, are known to sound bad and so not tried - Luther books have charts of pros and cons of different woods). You can put several different pickups in it (including none) Then you can put a few different styles of truss rod in, tuners, cover with one of a dozen different finishes - it is easy to get over a thousand possible combinations then select however many.
That is for just one pattern, but there are many different patterns. Then we get into acoustic vs electric.
Of course it isn't hard to create a new alloy for your cymbals either. The real question is how many different models is it worth putting into your catalog. There is a cost to each one - even if it never sells you have to be ready to make it which means keeping anything specific to that around (or at least have suppliers that commits to making whatever you would need on-demand)
That is for just one pattern, but there are many different patterns. Then we get into acoustic vs electric.
Of course it isn't hard to create a new alloy for your cymbals either. The real question is how many different models is it worth putting into your catalog. There is a cost to each one - even if it never sells you have to be ready to make it which means keeping anything specific to that around (or at least have suppliers that commits to making whatever you would need on-demand)
This is correct, but AFAIK if you buy, say, a Stratocaster, it can come in a number of different colors / finishes, maybe with a couple different options of wood for the fretboard, possibly a couple different options for the pickups, but this is still the same model.
I suppose that the cymbals makers just cut their models more thinly.
I suppose that the cymbals makers just cut their models more thinly.
They have different factories in differente countries with different quality and price points. Also electronics have tiers.
It's surprising how much there is still a difference in cheap and expensive potentiometers and switches. One would have expected someone to have cracked high quality and cheap by now?
It's surprising how much there is still a difference in cheap and expensive potentiometers and switches. One would have expected someone to have cracked high quality and cheap by now?
Different neck joints would spawn different models with ease.
I wasn't suggesting that there aren't a lot of variables for guitars. Possibly more than for cymbals. My point was there is a lot of variables for cymbals even if it's perhaps less obvious.
Reminds me of those Japanese companies that has been around since the founding of modern Japan making uniquely crafted products like a video, I watched of a company making some very expensive black pigment that is rolled by a dude with bare feet.
I played percussion in High School and Zildjian is lodged in my brain as the "best" quality cymbals.
I have no idea how accurate that is, but it's a testament to their brand recognition just how firmly they grabbed a hold of my impressionable young mind.
I have no idea how accurate that is, but it's a testament to their brand recognition just how firmly they grabbed a hold of my impressionable young mind.
I thought the same and nearly was the purchaser of a Zildjian back tattoo. That would have been a top tier blunder year move.
I know them from the Zildjian live YouTube channel:
https://www.google.com/search?q=zildjian%20live
The top few videos have amazing music (mostly Snarky Puppy and J D Beck)
https://www.google.com/search?q=zildjian%20live
The top few videos have amazing music (mostly Snarky Puppy and J D Beck)
Zildjian's history and global reach is truly exceptional. I've tried many cymbals over the years but Zildjian has a nailed a specific deep resonating sound others can't compete with. Heres to another 400 years!
A buddy of mine is an antique guy and I went to an auction with him one time. I saw a drum set and he said something like "oh yeah that's worth liker $400" only thing he bought was the cymbal.
> Carrington founded and directs Berklee College of Music’s Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice in Boston. She’s also a Zildjian artist
What do you think they study at the Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice ?
What do you think they study at the Institute of Jazz and Gender Justice ?
It’s widely known that the best way to scare off an alt-right chauvinist troll is by playing cymbals and free jazz.
I didn’t look it up, but at first glance, it reminded me of discussions like this one
https://youtu.be/qnT48wO0UL0
https://youtu.be/qnT48wO0UL0
This was fun. Personally I liked sabian more, the cymbals sounded brighter and bolder to me. Zildjians were more dull - maybe the ones I used in school band / drum instructors were so old!
Ahh nothing like the sound of a heavy wet rag over a 14" Zildjian hi hat. I do agree, and I prefer Paiste for the exact same reasons.
Every 15yo boy wore a Zildjian shirt in my high school. I still strongly associate it with being 15 wannabe. Kinda killed the brand for me.
I try to be charitable with 15 year old wannabes.
Because 15 year olds who don't wannabe something, generally don't turn out interesting. And most 15 year olds who already have their life figured out are either wrong or boring.
But these are perspectives from a few decades later. At the time, I too had strong opinions about people who wore their aspirations on (or between) their sleeves. We called them poseurs. Because we had more opinions than knowledge. Like 15 year olds. :)
(Aside: you have to admit though: The Zildjian logotype is pretty great. Also, because you'd often get a free t-shirt with purchase, it was hard to tell the legit from the poseur without getting them to sit at the kit.)
Because 15 year olds who don't wannabe something, generally don't turn out interesting. And most 15 year olds who already have their life figured out are either wrong or boring.
But these are perspectives from a few decades later. At the time, I too had strong opinions about people who wore their aspirations on (or between) their sleeves. We called them poseurs. Because we had more opinions than knowledge. Like 15 year olds. :)
(Aside: you have to admit though: The Zildjian logotype is pretty great. Also, because you'd often get a free t-shirt with purchase, it was hard to tell the legit from the poseur without getting them to sit at the kit.)
While some kids adopt symbols to signal ingroup membership, at your school they chose cymbals.
Yeah, just a low effort drive by comment of mine driven by nostalgia. Was feelin a little mischievous.
Wow, where did you go to school? Every 15 year old boy at mine was wearing a team shirt, an athletic brand shirt, or a band's shirt.
Still, that school must have been comparatively awesome.
urronglol(1)
How hard would it be to work out the metallurgy of the cymbals, but I think the Zildjian name is so cool, why bother.
Not an expert in this field, but I would guess you could use spectrometry/spectroscopy tools to tell you what the elemental composition is, maybe a SEM to work out the crystallization?
Either way, cloning an established leader isn't always a good strategy for success. You might just end up making a name for yourself as a cheap clone.
Either way, cloning an established leader isn't always a good strategy for success. You might just end up making a name for yourself as a cheap clone.
Apparently it's not just the mix of metals, but the process.
At college I was acquainted with one of the family and I asked him just that question. He said it is actually very difficult and some MIT people had gotten closer than others to figuring it out (but not very close), and gave up after the mixes/processes kept exploding on them.
At college I was acquainted with one of the family and I asked him just that question. He said it is actually very difficult and some MIT people had gotten closer than others to figuring it out (but not very close), and gave up after the mixes/processes kept exploding on them.
One would imagine pretty hard, given that the company hasn't been overrun by competitors. Not to say it's impossible, but generally when something isn't commonplace that is a good sign it's hard.
One of my childhood friends works at Zildjian and has been involved in their metallurgy stuff lately (his picture is actually in the article!). From what he's alluded to, it sounds like they consider their trade secrets around their processes to be the main reason for their competitive advantage, and they're extremely careful about who they're shared with even internally, and the number of people who know some of them probably number only in the single digits.
They probably pee in it. That’s usually the secret.
Silver is one of the other major metals in the alloy. Odd that this is not mentioned.
Someone had a similar thought and that’s why Soultone exists.
Soultone cymbals are AWESOME. Absolutely love my soultone crash, anf it was dirt cheap
literally was in a guitarcenter on the 30th of December and I was staring at the name zildjian on those drums...wondering where the whole brand name came from...and this appeared on HN today - what a small world of coincidences.
There's a 1500 year old company - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kong%C5%8D_Gumi
What does that have to do with anything?
Has anyone synthesized the sound of a Zildjian cymbal from scratch?
ie impulse response hit depending on intensity scaled 0 to 1 > makes the sound
ie impulse response hit depending on intensity scaled 0 to 1 > makes the sound
Yes, Roland use physical modelling on their flagship V-Drum modules, but it's a harder problem than you might think. High-quality sensors for electronic drum kits sense not only impact velocity, but position - a cymbal will sound radically different depending on where you hit it. Every part of a drum kit will sympathetically resonate with every other part. It's all massively complicated to model and it only has to be slightly off to feel wrong to a good drummer. Despite decades of serious technical effort, there's still a big gap between the real deal and digital, particularly for drummers with a delicate style who make use of brushes, rutes or soft mallets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8bihSwnnyc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8bihSwnnyc
Agreed. Drummer and programmer here. I consider electronic drums to be a different instrument from acoustic drums---especially cymbals---with somewhat comparable musical functions. The advantage of e-drums is that the sound guy can turn the volume down to zero no matter how hard I'm hitting, and that's helpful in places like churches or my apartment. The other advantage is that toms (i.e., the tom samples) are always perfectly and consistently tuned. Apart from those advantages, there's far less traditional drum expressiveness in e-drums (for traditional genres like jazz and rock). The flip side is: with e-drums I can hit the cymbal and make a laser noise.
With more effort I expect that eventually we will be able to model physical instruments just as good as the real thing. However it is an open question if that is good. Sometimes along the way we discover how to make something better. Of course sound is subjective and so no everyone will agree it is better.
If we can barely model a drumkit, how can we model a brain
There are two distinct problems - modelling a drum kit, and modelling a drum kit with millisecond latency in a way that is accessible and affordable for non-technical musicians. The latter requires a lot more engineering compromises than the former.
Yeah, electronic cymbals just don't feel right at all. The price to pay for being able to practice somewhat quietly, I suppose.
Cymbals aren't like speakers, microphones, or rooms, whose inputs are audio and can therefore be modelled with IR via an impulse input. (Well, you can model a cymbal with IR and use it as a reverberator, like a speaker.)
AFAIK, what you're talking about would probably fall into the category of physical modelling, and there's quite a bit of development happening there currently.
AFAIK, what you're talking about would probably fall into the category of physical modelling, and there's quite a bit of development happening there currently.
Yeah, there is so much more than just hitting these cymbals. How and where and how hard. Anyone who strikes one is not likely to ever forget the experience and it takes quite a while to even scratch the surface of how many different sounds can be produced with each model using various techniques.
I used to crawl around drum sets when I was a baby as my father was a professional musician. I mounted the set as soon as I could and it was the only instrument I was was ever really interested in. Alas, I was heavily discouraged from pursuing music as a child by my mother. She blamed our shit life on my father and his obsession with music and he basically quit after the divorce and went into entrepreneurship (funded by my grandfather's GE stock) to pay our child support. I digress.
I used to crawl around drum sets when I was a baby as my father was a professional musician. I mounted the set as soon as I could and it was the only instrument I was was ever really interested in. Alas, I was heavily discouraged from pursuing music as a child by my mother. She blamed our shit life on my father and his obsession with music and he basically quit after the divorce and went into entrepreneurship (funded by my grandfather's GE stock) to pay our child support. I digress.
Was child support funded by dividends or stock sales?
Stock sales to fund a small business venture.
>> She blamed our shit life on my father and his obsession with music and he basically quit after the divorce and went into entrepreneurship (funded by my grandfather's GE stock) to pay our child support.
Sounds like there was some truth in what your mom said?
Sounds like there was some truth in what your mom said?
Some. There was the philandering, which was not necessary, and tainted my mom's perceptions.
Percussion synthesis is a deep and wonderful practice within electronic music, especially techno and especially in its more experimental manifestations. I’ve never encountered anything specifically claiming to emulate specific cymbals but I’m sure it’s out there galore. In any case, cymbal and hihat synthesis is a classic task in techno production.
A cymbal is not even close to a 1 dimensional sound. Not only do you have intensity of strike, but you have the part of the stick you struck with, your grip looseness, the area of the cymbal you hit, the material of the stick, the material of the cymbal, etc etc etc.
Simulating the sound of a cymbal to high fidelity is equivalent to simulating the physics of the atoms making up the cymbal.
If you want to hand wave away the complexity, sure, Nintendo regularly simulates the sound of a cymbal with a white noise generator modulated by an intensity envelope.
Simulating the sound of a cymbal to high fidelity is equivalent to simulating the physics of the atoms making up the cymbal.
If you want to hand wave away the complexity, sure, Nintendo regularly simulates the sound of a cymbal with a white noise generator modulated by an intensity envelope.
There are several ways to do that, from Karplus-Strong or FM synthesis all the way to solving differential equations (usually with the finite difference method), the more work is involved the more closed is the resulting product. And it's very hard to get it right.
Julius Smith's recent book on physical modeling: https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/pasp/
Looks like he moved to the US only five years before the Armenian Genocide and I'm guessing it was because he could see the writing on the wall. Goes to show that massacring your citizens has an economic cost.
> At the time jazz was exploding, so Avedis III travelled to New York City so he could develop new sounds with pioneers, including Gene Krupa. “Not only was he a fabulous drummer,” Debbie said, “he was also very flamboyant in his style.” This made Krupa an ideal ambassador for Zildjian.
Yeah wow, they have some of the world's absolute best drummers using their symbols.
> Lars Ulrich of Metallica
Also some so-so ones.
Yeah wow, they have some of the world's absolute best drummers using their symbols.
> Lars Ulrich of Metallica
Also some so-so ones.
I'm more interested in how and why Avedis III decided to immigrate to America, the Armenian Genocide happened only a few years later. Either he saw the writing on the wall, or he picked a very, very lucky time to move a 300 year old business to another continent.
As a drummer, I believe the title of this article is a little misleading. Such a title better represent cymbal factories that are located in Istanbul that use centuries old manufacturing processes.
Although Zildjian is undeniably iconic, the same could be said about Bosphorus Cymbals and a few other companies I won't name.
Although Zildjian is undeniably iconic, the same could be said about Bosphorus Cymbals and a few other companies I won't name.
Has the title changed since you posted this comment? It's not clear to me why "a 400-year-old cymbal-making company in Massachusetts" would have to imply that the processes are 400 years old, or that the company was always located in Massachusetts, or that there aren't any other old cymbal companies elsewhere.
Missing context in the comment you replied to is that hand made cymbal companies in Istanbul can all be traced back to the old Zildjian factory there
Here I found a news story in English summarizing the situation [1]:
> The Zildjian company moved to the United States in 1929, while Avedis III moved the Zildjian factory to Quincy, Massachusetts, and then to its current location in nearby Norwell for Zildjian’s 350th anniversary.
> ... As one arm of the Zildjian family was building a huge brand in the U.S., those who remained in Turkey continued making cymbals until 1978, when Mikael Zildjian died.
> Tamdeğer said he felt desperate after his master’s death. Following two years of jewelry business in Kuwait, he re-founded the old business with his former colleague, Agop Tomurcuk, another Turkish-Armenian.
1. https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/zildjian-family-apprentice...
Here I found a news story in English summarizing the situation [1]:
> The Zildjian company moved to the United States in 1929, while Avedis III moved the Zildjian factory to Quincy, Massachusetts, and then to its current location in nearby Norwell for Zildjian’s 350th anniversary.
> ... As one arm of the Zildjian family was building a huge brand in the U.S., those who remained in Turkey continued making cymbals until 1978, when Mikael Zildjian died.
> Tamdeğer said he felt desperate after his master’s death. Following two years of jewelry business in Kuwait, he re-founded the old business with his former colleague, Agop Tomurcuk, another Turkish-Armenian.
1. https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/zildjian-family-apprentice...
US-based A. Zildjian Co bought Istanbul-based K. Zildjian Co in 1968 - where Mikael, who married into the family, worked.
So this is arguably the original company.
So this is arguably the original company.