A SpaceX team is being brought in to overhaul FAA's air traffic control system(theverge.com)
theverge.com
A SpaceX team is being brought in to overhaul FAA's air traffic control system
https://www.theverge.com/news/614078/faa-air-traffic-control-spacex-elon-musk-layoff-staff-shortage
155 comments
> Just feels like corruption, tbh.
If a democrat did this, it would (rightly!) be seen as a front-page scandal on the scale of Teapot Dome if not worse.
If a democrat did this, it would (rightly!) be seen as a front-page scandal on the scale of Teapot Dome if not worse.
...it's literally seen as a front-page scandal on HN and the linked source though.
Where is the outrage from the one group that can actually do anything about this: Republican members of congress and Republican senators?
There's already been a handful of impeachment-level events, such as the blatant quid pro quo of the Adams corruption charges dismissal which resulted in a series of DoJ resignations reminiscent of the Saturday Night Massacre. You know, a critical event that shifted public and Republican opinion of Nixon, leading to his resignation under the threat of impeachment.
Democratic congresspeople and senators can't do much without at least some of their Republican colleagues standing up to the bullies currently running the party.
And no, Susan Collins' inevitable but ineffectual "concerns" isn't the kind of outrage I mean.
There's already been a handful of impeachment-level events, such as the blatant quid pro quo of the Adams corruption charges dismissal which resulted in a series of DoJ resignations reminiscent of the Saturday Night Massacre. You know, a critical event that shifted public and Republican opinion of Nixon, leading to his resignation under the threat of impeachment.
Democratic congresspeople and senators can't do much without at least some of their Republican colleagues standing up to the bullies currently running the party.
And no, Susan Collins' inevitable but ineffectual "concerns" isn't the kind of outrage I mean.
The answer seems pretty simple. They are all spineless loyalists or want to preserve their power these days. Shameful.
Why would they be outraged? They're doing the job they were hired to do. This is what their constituency has wanted for many years and demanded: pure unadulterated unwavering unquestioned support for their emperor, and he is Trump. They want a mean daddy. They finally found him.
All of the people with balls have been fired or quit.
North Carolina senator Thom Tillis told people that the FBI warned him about “credible death threats” when he was considering voting against Pete Hegseth’s nomination. - Vanity Fair, “They’re Scared Shitless”
To whatever degree they are really scared (Liz Cheney is far braver than these MAGA elected kooks, scared of their own shadows), let's accept the premise for the sake of the argument. They will permit an incendiary fire of epic proportion well beyond what we've seen so far before they do anything. They may in fact not be capable of it under any circumstances. And if that is the case, is there even a functioning Senate right now? In terms of 5 USC 3331? I think not. And that means the republic is in abeyance. It's a principate now. For however long, really depends on the American public - not any elected officials.
All of the people with balls have been fired or quit.
North Carolina senator Thom Tillis told people that the FBI warned him about “credible death threats” when he was considering voting against Pete Hegseth’s nomination. - Vanity Fair, “They’re Scared Shitless”
To whatever degree they are really scared (Liz Cheney is far braver than these MAGA elected kooks, scared of their own shadows), let's accept the premise for the sake of the argument. They will permit an incendiary fire of epic proportion well beyond what we've seen so far before they do anything. They may in fact not be capable of it under any circumstances. And if that is the case, is there even a functioning Senate right now? In terms of 5 USC 3331? I think not. And that means the republic is in abeyance. It's a principate now. For however long, really depends on the American public - not any elected officials.
I only found this thread by searching new and going back a couple pages
This & the massive amount of interesting [flagged] threads is a good reason for using hckrnews.com
What is hckernews.com
This article isn't on the front page, it was flagged.
On page 3 now.
SpaceX has no experience with air traffic control. It's just more corruption. We definitely don't want a startup that "moves fast and breaks things" having anything to do with air traffic control.
Why is everyone assuming SpaceX is getting paid for this by the government? The article doesn't even say that SpaceX is getting paid by the govt for it, they just put it in the headline and use weasel words in the story to make people come up with assumptions that may not be true.
The govt can be paying those folks directly or Musk himself can be paying them like he did for some DOGE team members.
The govt can be paying those folks directly or Musk himself can be paying them like he did for some DOGE team members.
Great. Lets just have "someone" do "something" while they "might" get paid by "someone".
Sounds like the ideal government...
Sounds like the ideal government...
[deleted]
But isn't SpaceX money coming mostly from the government anyway? So still your pockets getting emptied, only over two extra hoops which each take their share as well. All this to bring the magic solution called software engineering because we all know how software consultants always save the business.
No it isn't. Most of their revenue comes from starlink and rocket launch services that they sell in open markets.
Significant improvement in cost and capabilities over competition that enabled SpaceX to capture so much of the market has massively driven prices down and certainly saved taxpayers a lot of money for the services.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_launch_market_competitio...
SpaceX does get government grants of course like most companies. It's by far not most of their revenue though, and generally competitively available and tied to particular goals. Investing and supporting in high tech, high value industries like this is often a good thing and returns more than cost to the country, as it certainly has with SpaceX. So it's the opposite of pockets getting emptied.
Significant improvement in cost and capabilities over competition that enabled SpaceX to capture so much of the market has massively driven prices down and certainly saved taxpayers a lot of money for the services.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_launch_market_competitio...
SpaceX does get government grants of course like most companies. It's by far not most of their revenue though, and generally competitively available and tied to particular goals. Investing and supporting in high tech, high value industries like this is often a good thing and returns more than cost to the country, as it certainly has with SpaceX. So it's the opposite of pockets getting emptied.
Not to mention the national security advantage of being able to service the ISS and to launch humans into space without help from adversarial regimes.
Because getting more money and power are what Elon is after and embedding his companies in the government is an effective way to do that.
Tesla stock roughly doubled following the election! That's obviously not because Trump is going to be a champion for electric vehicles and green energy, he couldn't be more hostile to them. Investors know that Elon is going to suck insane amounts of money out of the government with his new level of access and most of that will flow through his companies.
Tesla stock roughly doubled following the election! That's obviously not because Trump is going to be a champion for electric vehicles and green energy, he couldn't be more hostile to them. Investors know that Elon is going to suck insane amounts of money out of the government with his new level of access and most of that will flow through his companies.
Like how, for example? Serious question.
If SpaceX has the best, most economical, and safest route to space, why would Nasa and DoD not use them? Who else is there? Blue Origin's not there yet; others are in the works but not there yet. SpaceX is proven; it does a good job and has brought manned space flight back to the U.S. Has nothing to do with whether Musk & his team are close to Trump or not.
More to the point, the DoGE audits are projected to save the federal government hundreds of billions of dollars, which should significantly reduce the deficit which is currently projected at two trillion dollars.
Even if we assume the worst, most absurd and political stance that Musk is in it for the money and influence, saving $500 billion or more is still worth it. And, in reality, Musk's political activity is costing Tesla a lot of sales; Tesla's sales numbers are in decline, actually.
If SpaceX has the best, most economical, and safest route to space, why would Nasa and DoD not use them? Who else is there? Blue Origin's not there yet; others are in the works but not there yet. SpaceX is proven; it does a good job and has brought manned space flight back to the U.S. Has nothing to do with whether Musk & his team are close to Trump or not.
More to the point, the DoGE audits are projected to save the federal government hundreds of billions of dollars, which should significantly reduce the deficit which is currently projected at two trillion dollars.
Even if we assume the worst, most absurd and political stance that Musk is in it for the money and influence, saving $500 billion or more is still worth it. And, in reality, Musk's political activity is costing Tesla a lot of sales; Tesla's sales numbers are in decline, actually.
>More to the point, the DoGE audits are projected to save the federal government hundreds of billions of dollars, which should significantly reduce the deficit which is currently projected at two trillion dollars.
Oh come the fuck on. Projected by whom? If they are looking to reduce the deficit, why are they floating tax breaks that will cost the country billions?
Have some skepticism, will you?
Oh come the fuck on. Projected by whom? If they are looking to reduce the deficit, why are they floating tax breaks that will cost the country billions?
Have some skepticism, will you?
"why are they floating tax breaks that will cost the country billions?"
Not billions: trillions!
"Trump Tax Priorities To Cost $5 to $11 Trillion over the next Ten Years"
https://www.crfb.org/blogs/trump-tax-priorities-total-5-11-t...
Not billions: trillions!
"Trump Tax Priorities To Cost $5 to $11 Trillion over the next Ten Years"
https://www.crfb.org/blogs/trump-tax-priorities-total-5-11-t...
Standard supply side theory. Reduce tax overhead, reduce size of government, increase availability of capital for private investment, give people back the money to either spend, start businesses, or invest in markets. Money is more productive in private hands; government acts as a money sink that locks up wealth in unproductive cul-de-sacs. Government is inefficient; free markets are efficient.
Read Milton Friedman, not anti-Trump hit pieces that predict disaster.
Read Milton Friedman, not anti-Trump hit pieces that predict disaster.
article didn't they they got the project and any project would take months/years even with the best and brightest on the project
> get a firsthand look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system
based on this they can come in to scope out a project and send it out for bidding
> get a firsthand look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system
based on this they can come in to scope out a project and send it out for bidding
where have they indicated that they will open this up for bidding?
An article 3 months from now...
"According to Musk, the efficiencies gained by leveraging the exposure of the assessment team make SpaceX the only viable vendor. 'A bidding process to select the only possible applicant would be silly.'"
"According to Musk, the efficiencies gained by leveraging the exposure of the assessment team make SpaceX the only viable vendor. 'A bidding process to select the only possible applicant would be silly.'"
> What specific expertise does SpaceX have in the air traffic control realm?
None?
> What was the bidding process like?
What bidding process? Remember when it's the "special WH employee" hiring his own company that's all fine and dandy
> Is there a problem statement beyond "it has some old bits"? What are the specific goals?
Every system can be improved, but I think the current issues with ATC in the US are not of a technical nature per se
ATC is much more than controllers watching planes on radar screens
Also remember this is a system that has been continuously evolving since WWII pretty much (and possibly before) and that one of the recent "breaking backwards compatibility" was NDBs being decommissioned in the US (bit by bit)
None?
> What was the bidding process like?
What bidding process? Remember when it's the "special WH employee" hiring his own company that's all fine and dandy
> Is there a problem statement beyond "it has some old bits"? What are the specific goals?
Every system can be improved, but I think the current issues with ATC in the US are not of a technical nature per se
ATC is much more than controllers watching planes on radar screens
Also remember this is a system that has been continuously evolving since WWII pretty much (and possibly before) and that one of the recent "breaking backwards compatibility" was NDBs being decommissioned in the US (bit by bit)
> Remember when it's the "special WH employee" hiring his own company that's all fine and dandy
Source that SpaceX was hired for this? The article makes no such claims and has no sources saying that.
Source that SpaceX was hired for this? The article makes no such claims and has no sources saying that.
> Do other regions / nations have more advanced ATC
According to Trump, yes. This is what he said:
> When I land in my plane, privately, I use a system from another country because...I won't tell you what country... because the captain says this system is so bad, it's so obsolete, that we can't have that.
- https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2025/02/06...
According to Trump, yes. This is what he said:
> When I land in my plane, privately, I use a system from another country because...I won't tell you what country... because the captain says this system is so bad, it's so obsolete, that we can't have that.
- https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2025/02/06...
That article says Trump is confused.
> Trump ... seemed to mix up a plane’s onboard electronics system with the federal air traffic control system.
> Trump ... seemed to mix up a plane’s onboard electronics system with the federal air traffic control system.
I think the intro explaining that this is not true and Trump was most likely misunderstanding his pilot's comments about onboard electronics is the key bit of that article...
Fits in with the first term in which Trump baffled airline executives by assuring them that he'd help solve the problem with the airports giving them the wrong equipment[1], also based on apparently failing to understand an anecdote from his private pilot
There is actually a very long term project to modernise US ATC (less on safety grounds and more on congestion minimization grounds) it's even one in which theoretically a satellite constellation operator could have some involvement as a data provider. But but it's something of an understatement to suggest that this is unlikely to be advanced by an administration lead by someone who thinks he understands aviation based on misunderstanding his pilot and someone whose first foray into improving the FAA was to arbitrarily fire hundreds of FAA staff and whose main goal for the FAA is to deregulate space launches...
[1]https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/re...
Fits in with the first term in which Trump baffled airline executives by assuring them that he'd help solve the problem with the airports giving them the wrong equipment[1], also based on apparently failing to understand an anecdote from his private pilot
There is actually a very long term project to modernise US ATC (less on safety grounds and more on congestion minimization grounds) it's even one in which theoretically a satellite constellation operator could have some involvement as a data provider. But but it's something of an understatement to suggest that this is unlikely to be advanced by an administration lead by someone who thinks he understands aviation based on misunderstanding his pilot and someone whose first foray into improving the FAA was to arbitrarily fire hundreds of FAA staff and whose main goal for the FAA is to deregulate space launches...
[1]https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/re...
> someone whose first foray into improving the FAA was to arbitrarily fire hundreds of FAA staff
400 non-ATC, non-safety related probationary new hires, out of 45,000.
400 non-ATC, non-safety related probationary new hires, out of 45,000.
Sure, so 1% of the workforce of an organization generally considered to be understaffed, with the firing criteria being either that (i) their role was a position the FAA had recently decided needed filling or (ii) they had been successful enough with the agency to be promoted to a new role. Having fired them, the agency will now look into whether the radar, landing and navigational aid workers fired performed safety critical functions. Perhaps, like the arbitrarily fired nuclear safety operatives, they might be reinstated
Does this strike you as the approach of an administration that knows what its doing and cares deeply about safety?
Does this strike you as the approach of an administration that knows what its doing and cares deeply about safety?
Less than 1%. 45,000/400 = 0.89%.
It was reported that they were not critical workers.
Perhaps some will be rehired. A review of hiring procedures is underway.
It's recently been revealed that not only does the FAA require a "biography" of its ATC applicants, but have even been coaching black candidates how to use the keywords that will allow their applications to float to the top.
If the agency and the politicians overseeing it cared about safety, shouldn't they try to hire the best and the brightest, not the under-represented minorities that they have been struggling to hire in recent years? Meanwhile, White applicants who were fully qualified have been bypassed.
I personally don't care, and I suspect most thinking people don't care, what the ethnicity or gender are of the people in the towers. But we all care very deeply that they should be the very best of the best.
It's recently been revealed that not only does the FAA require a "biography" of its ATC applicants, but have even been coaching black candidates how to use the keywords that will allow their applications to float to the top.
If the agency and the politicians overseeing it cared about safety, shouldn't they try to hire the best and the brightest, not the under-represented minorities that they have been struggling to hire in recent years? Meanwhile, White applicants who were fully qualified have been bypassed.
I personally don't care, and I suspect most thinking people don't care, what the ethnicity or gender are of the people in the towers. But we all care very deeply that they should be the very best of the best.
It's interesting that you have fewer concerns about the safety implications of firing regulators before taking the time to establish what they do or why they were hire/promoted, never mind their competence than you do about the safety implications of underrepresented groups receiving advice on job applications. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that arbitrary firings damage organizations (and indeed qualified white people's employment prospects) more than interviewing a few more black people.
Because software developers have never worked in an unfamiliar domain, which necessitated interviewing the subject matter experts to gain perspective on their problems and needs.
History is absolutely replete with "technologists" underestimating the difficulty of transforming complex government systems. Health, education, why not add aviation safety to the list.
There is no more thought process than: "Elon smart and hard working. Government employees dumb and lazy (and also woke)"
Bidding process? Learn from other nations? Problem statement? Goals?
The problem statement is: I don't own this yet. And the goal is: I run everything now.
It IS blatant corruption. A foreign national is using his private enterprises to take over government agencies and is backed by a traitor who only cares about his own money and power.
If there ever was a more blatant episode of corruption it's what's going on in the US right now.
The problem statement is: I don't own this yet. And the goal is: I run everything now.
It IS blatant corruption. A foreign national is using his private enterprises to take over government agencies and is backed by a traitor who only cares about his own money and power.
If there ever was a more blatant episode of corruption it's what's going on in the US right now.
I agree with everything else you’ve written, but Musk is an American citizen, since a couple of decades.
He is also has a special Chinese status and large interests there. See for example https://newrepublic.com/article/191265/elon-musk-us-china-us...
How can anyone take this post seriously when it gets basic facts wrong.
People take Musk seriously and he gets basic facts wrong constantly
I wasn't talking about the poster, I was talking about the post. If Musk is writing things that gets basic stuff wrong, then that shouldn't be taken seriously, either.
"It’s only really like the tenth percentile of the adult population who’d be gullible enough to fall for this," the data scientist told Musk during a face-to-face meeting.
"Fuck you!" Musk shouted back.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/data-scientist-resigned-twitter-b...
Musk is not a terribly bright individual. He gets a lot of things wrong, and he does not care to be told he is wrong.
"Fuck you!" Musk shouted back.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/data-scientist-resigned-twitter-b...
Musk is not a terribly bright individual. He gets a lot of things wrong, and he does not care to be told he is wrong.
gitfan86(4)
What specific expertise does SpaceX have in the air traffic control realm?
Building software which respect to probabilistic risk analysis. This includes techniques such as abstract interpretation and theorem for for the logic of dynamical system etc. I guess spacex expertise in these realm is quite advanced and they do something useful.
Building software which respect to probabilistic risk analysis. This includes techniques such as abstract interpretation and theorem for for the logic of dynamical system etc. I guess spacex expertise in these realm is quite advanced and they do something useful.
So in other words, you don't really know.
SpaceX rocket debris crashes into Poland
2 hours ago https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62z3vxjplpo
none of this has anything to do with air traffic control. and it's about NASA's agreement with contractors like SpaceX, not SpaceX's relationship with the FAA.
Sure, but they need to calculate risk of their stuff. So they at least know how to do that. So they will understand how risk assessment works and can apply this into analyzing system used and evaluating available system on the markets.
Anyway this is the least concern of what the Trump admin is doing. They siding with Russia putting America's carefully crafted world order down the drain. Read: winter is coming - garry kasparov
Anyway this is the least concern of what the Trump admin is doing. They siding with Russia putting America's carefully crafted world order down the drain. Read: winter is coming - garry kasparov
My understanding regarding ATC issues today is that they are terribly understaffed, and several news outlets have reported on this. If that is the case I don't know how much fancy modelling can help.
Such systems are designed and fine-tuned over decades of sometimes hard-learned lessons. This is not meant as a political comment, but people will likely die as a result of this.
As intended, then you can blame the previous system for all the failures.
I mean the previous systems do need an overhaul, but that should be and is being done slowly and meticulously. The SpaceX people - whoever they are - will have the credentials to design a new system I'm sure, but probably not without breaking things for years to come.
And they can't just rip it out and replace it, that would likely cripple airlines. Which may be by design of course, but why would they want their own people to no longer be able to fly?
And they can't just rip it out and replace it, that would likely cripple airlines. Which may be by design of course, but why would they want their own people to no longer be able to fly?
> breaking things
You mean: "killing people"?
You mean: "killing people"?
And then you can privatize the entire system. And who will be first in line for it? You guessed it, SpaceX. Corruption from top to bottom.
To be fair, a system like ACAS is quite old and modern systems with better margins are currently developed and tested, they use techniques such as logic of dynamical systems to proof that the collision avoidance is working as intended. If one can accelerate these it would be an improvement. Don't know about air traffic control, but Europe seems to more advanced.
Die as a result of giving attention to and upgrading air traffic control systems? Didn't a bunch of people die recently as a result of not intervening in this manner?
The Verge is... often a nauseating experience because between every line they're hammering a side-hustle point with blunt force.
Duffy: "I’m asking for help from any high-tech American developer or company that is willing to give back to our country..."
Duffy: "...learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system....Zero air traffic controllers and critical safety personnel were let go"
Sounds like they're asking air traffic controllers what they need. I doubt Musk will storm in with kitchen sink, light a cigar and put his boots up on the console.
The Verge is... often a nauseating experience because between every line they're hammering a side-hustle point with blunt force.
Duffy: "I’m asking for help from any high-tech American developer or company that is willing to give back to our country..."
Duffy: "...learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system....Zero air traffic controllers and critical safety personnel were let go"
Sounds like they're asking air traffic controllers what they need. I doubt Musk will storm in with kitchen sink, light a cigar and put his boots up on the console.
How nice to invite the company that is being regulated and fined multiple times by the FAA ( https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/spacex-forcefully-r... ) to overhaul it.
This is just batsh*t crazy.
The quote from Duffy indicates that the SpaceX team doesn't have any real knowledge about or experience with the FAA systems. Seems like they're being brought in just because they're a Musk company.
The quote also doesn't indicate the SpaceX team is being "brought in to overhaul FAA systems", that seems like a big mistake if that tweet is all they are basing it on. The tweet says the FAA is tasked with overhauling their ATC system, and people from SpaceX are visiting to share ideas, and it seems to include an open invitation to others to do the same.
Political pettiness, and speculation about whether Musk got some special favor or advantage that would not be available to other companies aside, it doesn't seem like a bad idea to get cross-pollination and share ideas with other organizations and fields. SpaceX may not know much about ATC but they probably do know something about monitoring and control and collision avoidance in rockets and satellites.
Political pettiness, and speculation about whether Musk got some special favor or advantage that would not be available to other companies aside, it doesn't seem like a bad idea to get cross-pollination and share ideas with other organizations and fields. SpaceX may not know much about ATC but they probably do know something about monitoring and control and collision avoidance in rockets and satellites.
Maybe Musk should have done that review before firing all of those FAA employees last month. Maybe those jobs were important.
> "Maybe those jobs were important."
It's been reported that 400 new hires on probationary status were let go. None of them were involved in safety related operations. The FAA has around 45,000 total employees, so it's a rather tiny percentage, in any case.
It's been reported that 400 new hires on probationary status were let go. None of them were involved in safety related operations. The FAA has around 45,000 total employees, so it's a rather tiny percentage, in any case.
I don't know, maybe. Maybe not if they're getting ideas for a new ATC system not applicable to day to day operations of the existing one, which is more like what the tweet sounded like. But I really don't know the inner workings of any of that so it would only be speculation. I'm sure there's lots they could be doing better.
What I wrote stands though, the article seems poorly sourced and incorrect about its interpretation of the tweet.
What I wrote stands though, the article seems poorly sourced and incorrect about its interpretation of the tweet.
While the team might not know much about FAA yet, they have high trust and a good working relationship with the guy who knows more about everything than everyone so maybe that's why this will work out great
Yeah, his history is basically bringing in people he can trust because he can control them and then making them do what he wants to get the outcome he needs. It's a pattern across all of his companies and endeavors.
Compared to what, just rolling the dice? SpaceX isn't the only shop that can deliver against requirements.
Procurement bids should be transparent and avoid the illusion of conflict. This is the complete opposite of that. It's hard to take Musk's campaign against "fraud and waste" serious when he's awarding the contracts to himself.
Procurement bids should be transparent and avoid the illusion of conflict. This is the complete opposite of that. It's hard to take Musk's campaign against "fraud and waste" serious when he's awarding the contracts to himself.
100%, this is very definitely him acting immorally and illegally.
As against bringing in people he can’t trust or control, to not do what he wants, and get an outcome he doesn’t need.
I think this move is a mistake, but what your describing there is just competent management.
I think this move is a mistake, but what your describing there is just competent management.
Before all of the crashes recently with the FAA it has been having a large resource gap (for more than a decade) and that there was a plan in 2024 was on plan to hire thousands. [1][2] This got to the point that they were cutting minimum flying requirements (airlines losing takeoffs and landing slots) [3]. A big problem with even getting people to have a job at the ATC is that it doesn't really pay that well and the main source of hiring of people is former pilots especially when it can have long hours and shifts. I see this more as what happens when you stretch recommended staffing levels to the point where 90% of ATC towers are understaffed[4].
[1]https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/controller_staf... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-faa-cuts-minimum-flight-... [3]https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/faa-nomin... [4] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/over-90-percent-u-s-airport-tow...
[1]https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/controller_staf... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-faa-cuts-minimum-flight-... [3]https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/faa-nomin... [4] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/over-90-percent-u-s-airport-tow...
I have to be in the USA in May. I think I can get all the way to Michigan by boat.
The rapid unscheduled disassembly continues
I expect SpaceX to use the same care, patience, humility, and honesty as DOGE:
Trump administration fires and then tries to rehire nuclear weapons workers in DOGE reversal https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doge-firings-us-nuclear-weapons...
USDA accidentally fired officials working on bird flu and is now trying to rehire them https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/doge/usda-accidentally-fire...
And some strong evidence that DOGE is rewriting government databases to cover their tracks: https://xcancel.com/electricfutures/status/18920196528358073... (Note how petty this is - DOGE appears to be falsifying data rather than publicly admitting they were wrong! I assume Elon is personally responsible, just like Trump personally drew on the map with a Sharpie.)
Trump administration fires and then tries to rehire nuclear weapons workers in DOGE reversal https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doge-firings-us-nuclear-weapons...
USDA accidentally fired officials working on bird flu and is now trying to rehire them https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/doge/usda-accidentally-fire...
And some strong evidence that DOGE is rewriting government databases to cover their tracks: https://xcancel.com/electricfutures/status/18920196528358073... (Note how petty this is - DOGE appears to be falsifying data rather than publicly admitting they were wrong! I assume Elon is personally responsible, just like Trump personally drew on the map with a Sharpie.)
Sounds really interesting what’s happening there. Long story short: I once applied as a hardware developer for RF systems. Air traffic control systems were one of the topics. So basically digital solution exists, it’s light years better than current systems. The problem is the more or less simultaneous worldwide rollout of the new systems. On planes and airports… Because nobody wants to pay for a solution that supports both new and old communication standards. The old one is somehow enough for the most of the world.
I don't know about the crossover of technical expertise, but this smells like the perfect hedge against the possibility that Congress gets the cajones to defund anything Musk is involved with. You get your funding involved/intertwined with public safety issues, and voila, funding requests are fast tracked.
Reminds me of how it is claimed the Germany’s air traffic control is claimed have been eMacs based in the 90‘s
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26202517
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26202517
Please call your representatives and senators. https://5calls.org/ offers some scripts if you're unsure of what to say.
Ha! reps and senators only listen if you drop them a bag of a few million bucks.
The idea the solution any of society’s issues is “integrate more of Elon’s businesses”, is blatant corruption.
I recognize that "Trump outrage" was passé before his term even started, but can we call it out? This is called "corruption", there's no other word for it. President giving sweet gigs to his cronies, just like in Russia and Hungary.
Yeah everyone suddenly has no balls to say anything to Trump.
Congress, courts - silence.
Everyone suddenly is afraid to speak. Pretty sad.
Congress, courts - silence.
Everyone suddenly is afraid to speak. Pretty sad.
Corruption at this level is treason
From another continent, genuinely curious about Trump voters on this:
- Does anyone here at HN stand for this action?
- If so, do you think there's a conflict of interest? How do stand on this possible conflict?
- Does anyone here at HN stand for this action?
- If so, do you think there's a conflict of interest? How do stand on this possible conflict?
If you just look at this part:
> ...look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system.
Do you think there is anything wrong?
> ...look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system.
Do you think there is anything wrong?
In isolation, no - but this is not about an isolated topic: a transparent public call to tender, with due process, would be necessary if a government wanted to overhaul their ATC systems.
I personally view the action of giving a task to a company (SpaceX) that is legally under the oversight of the regulator (FAA) whose inner systems are to be overhauled - without contest - as problematic.
But maybe that's just cultural...
I personally view the action of giving a task to a company (SpaceX) that is legally under the oversight of the regulator (FAA) whose inner systems are to be overhauled - without contest - as problematic.
But maybe that's just cultural...
Making new tools doesn't solve the understaffing issue which is the main problem. Unless they think they can make a new system which reduces the staff necessary? The only way I see of doing that is introducing some level of AI, which is a bad idea for multiple reasons.
And new systems are so few and far between because of the layers of safety and regulation testing that must be met. Though it sounds like those may be reduced in the name of efficiency.
And new systems are so few and far between because of the layers of safety and regulation testing that must be met. Though it sounds like those may be reduced in the name of efficiency.
What ?
I’ve seen corrupt and broken contracts. The English is very reasonable.
People make lots of effort to make strange behavior look normal.
Hell - I know that the right sounding clause can basically buy you a full month of televised debate, where people point to the trees and miss the forest.
Why the heck does the president go to Mar A Lago ? His own hotel? And get the government to pay them ?
How the heck is it ok, for the second in command to bring his own team in?
Because it’s in America and this can’t be corruption?
American exceptionalism was built on overcoming basic mediocrity- and it would never stand for such an obvious conflict of interest.
TLDR: of course the language is going to sound good. What do people think the clauses will say ?
“Herein I take an oath that my actions are 100% corrupt?”
Obviously not.
I’ve seen corrupt and broken contracts. The English is very reasonable.
People make lots of effort to make strange behavior look normal.
Hell - I know that the right sounding clause can basically buy you a full month of televised debate, where people point to the trees and miss the forest.
Why the heck does the president go to Mar A Lago ? His own hotel? And get the government to pay them ?
How the heck is it ok, for the second in command to bring his own team in?
Because it’s in America and this can’t be corruption?
American exceptionalism was built on overcoming basic mediocrity- and it would never stand for such an obvious conflict of interest.
TLDR: of course the language is going to sound good. What do people think the clauses will say ?
“Herein I take an oath that my actions are 100% corrupt?”
Obviously not.
The process seems fine. But why SpaceX?
The tweet contained an open call for others to also collaborate. Is there any problem with SpaceX doing it or doing it first?
I have to admit I get a bit of a knee-jerk reaction about even the appearance of conflict of interest, but if money isn't changing hands then I can't see a problem really. Regulators regularly collaborate with stakeholders, so why not experts in peripheral / somewhat related fields?
And really, conflict of interest seems to not matter in the slightest in American politics, what with senators and bureaucrats and their spouses etc getting enormous grants and setting up "non-profits", there must be an enormous list of concerning conflicts worse than this.
I have to admit I get a bit of a knee-jerk reaction about even the appearance of conflict of interest, but if money isn't changing hands then I can't see a problem really. Regulators regularly collaborate with stakeholders, so why not experts in peripheral / somewhat related fields?
And really, conflict of interest seems to not matter in the slightest in American politics, what with senators and bureaucrats and their spouses etc getting enormous grants and setting up "non-profits", there must be an enormous list of concerning conflicts worse than this.
Absolutely: having a fat dynamic and rolling stock portfolio of the companies whose market you regulate as a member of congress is indeed problematic - but this not what this post is about, is it?
“If you just ignore all the context, is it okay?”
From polls it seems like Musk/Trump have the popular support...
[deleted]
Move fast and break things.
Makes sense. In other news some SpaceX garbage fell on a warehouse in Poland yesterday https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62z3vxjplpo
"an uncontrolled re-entry of the Falcon 9 rocket's second stage occurred between 04:46 and 04:48 on February 19, 2025, over Poland".
"an uncontrolled re-entry of the Falcon 9 rocket's second stage occurred between 04:46 and 04:48 on February 19, 2025, over Poland".
Just wait until Trump pardons Jeffrey Skilling, and puts him in charge of the Department of Energy Office of Electricity, to overhaul grid modernization, cybersecurity, and resilience running the national power grid, the Energy Information Administration, to provide power grid data and analysis, and the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to regulate interstate electricity transmission, wholesale power markets, and reliability.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Skilling
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Skilling
LOL ... well that's more than a tad ridic. An additional private generator might be in order if you're in the US.
before coming to say that Musk is getting government contracts due to corruption/special access please read the full article
> get a firsthand look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system
> [media] will claim Elon’s team is getting special access, let me make clear that the @FAANews regularly gives tours of the command center to both media and companies
> get a firsthand look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system
> [media] will claim Elon’s team is getting special access, let me make clear that the @FAANews regularly gives tours of the command center to both media and companies
" Duffy said the team from SpaceX went to Virginia to “get a firsthand look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system.”"
I don't understand how anyone can be reasonably against this? They are not going to just overhaul everything overnight, they are going to upgrade the system based on ATC feedback.
I don't understand how anyone can be reasonably against this? They are not going to just overhaul everything overnight, they are going to upgrade the system based on ATC feedback.
That is astounding naive take. Musk has a pattern of behavior and this fits it. This is pure corruption.
We clearly have very different definitions of corruption. Actual aeronautics engineers with hands-on expertise offering advice on how to modernize air safety systems does not fall within my definition of corruption.
> with hands-on expertise
in Air Traffic Control? At SpaceX? Do tell . . .
These aren't the same domains.
That technical nitpick aside, this is a classic business move whereby a preferred and privileged private operator gets exclusive ground floor access to get in on a leech like remora attachment to a spigot of public funds for decades.
That's the corruption part, not the touchy feely first phase "just some experts having a look".
in Air Traffic Control? At SpaceX? Do tell . . .
These aren't the same domains.
That technical nitpick aside, this is a classic business move whereby a preferred and privileged private operator gets exclusive ground floor access to get in on a leech like remora attachment to a spigot of public funds for decades.
That's the corruption part, not the touchy feely first phase "just some experts having a look".
>Musk has a pattern of behavior and this fits it. This is pure corruption.
You must be lost? Please take your Musk derangement syndrome somewhere else.
reddit.com
You must be lost? Please take your Musk derangement syndrome somewhere else.
reddit.com
I agree, SpaceX has 13,000 genius staff working in the aerospace industry, I'm pretty sure they can add some value to an aging ATC system.
The system is largely developed by Lockheed, Raytheon and Thales (all defense contractors). If there's a legal issue with SpaceX doing this I'm sure you'll hear about it.
The system is largely developed by Lockheed, Raytheon and Thales (all defense contractors). If there's a legal issue with SpaceX doing this I'm sure you'll hear about it.
You really don’t understand?
They do not what they say they will do.
They do not listen. They destroy.
They do not take responsibility, they point fingers.
They do not what they say they will do.
They do not listen. They destroy.
They do not take responsibility, they point fingers.
I don't want to have to copy paste my other comment like a bot.
You're clearly not able to think straight because you're too biased.
Space X has about a dozen different military, security and space contracts with the US gov, at least 7 of them under Biden.
You're clearly not able to think straight because you're too biased.
Space X has about a dozen different military, security and space contracts with the US gov, at least 7 of them under Biden.
When logic doesn’t agree with reality examine your assumptions.
The first assumption to examine is the one where you assume that the speaker is credible.
The first assumption to examine is the one where you assume that the speaker is credible.
> They are not going to just overhaul everything overnight, they are going to upgrade the system based on ATC feedback.
Let's assume that the person isn't so full of it that the sclera of their eyes aren't dark brown.
What guarantees that Musk's team is the best to do this on-time, on-budget, and on-spec?
Let's assume that the person isn't so full of it that the sclera of their eyes aren't dark brown.
What guarantees that Musk's team is the best to do this on-time, on-budget, and on-spec?
>What guarantees that Musk's team is the best to do this on-time, on-budget, and on-spec?
SpaceX has been a government contractor for years, consistently delivering innovative solutions, reducing costs, and achieving milestones that traditional aerospace companies struggled with.
Biden alone assigned 4 national security contract to Space X during his term, a notable one being NSSL.
SpaceX has been a government contractor for years, consistently delivering innovative solutions, reducing costs, and achieving milestones that traditional aerospace companies struggled with.
Biden alone assigned 4 national security contract to Space X during his term, a notable one being NSSL.
> SpaceX has been a government contractor for years, consistently delivering innovative solutions, reducing costs, and achieving milestones that traditional aerospace companies struggled with.
Cool. What about that says they'll have expertise in clearing up issues with ATC?
Was a call for proposals even made? Were requirements even defined?
Cool. What about that says they'll have expertise in clearing up issues with ATC?
Was a call for proposals even made? Were requirements even defined?
We could call this the road to regulatory capture instead perhaps.
I mean sure, they can envision all they want, and I'm sure they're competent and experienced engineers. But don't let them change anything overnight.
The most serious problem is that Elon Musk is the 2nd most powerful person in the federal government, and seems to be giving cabinet officials direct orders, yet he has not divested himself of his SpaceX shares.
I don't understand how anyone can reasonably pretend this is okay. Elon Musk + the birthright citizenship order + Eric Adams means Donald Trump is by far the most corrupt president in American history.
I don't understand how anyone can reasonably pretend this is okay. Elon Musk + the birthright citizenship order + Eric Adams means Donald Trump is by far the most corrupt president in American history.
Just feels like corruption, tbh.