What really happened at PyCon 2013(peak5390.wordpress.com)
peak5390.wordpress.com
What really happened at PyCon 2013
http://peak5390.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/what-really-happened-at-pycon-2013/
108 comments
I would highly encourage you to go next year if you're on the fence. This was my first PyCon and it was phenomenal.
How dare you linkbait non-gossip.
This is a really great summary and it is too bad that so much great knowledge sharing is going unnoticed because of the lure of controversy. Solid explanation.
You forgot StartupRow! 6 startups on Friday (we were one of them) plus another 6 on Saturday. Got to make some great contacts as a result.
Thank you for posting this. I wasn't at PyCon 2013, but I really wish the discussion would get back to the fact that 99% of what happens when technical people get together is positive and cool. It's really sad that the ridiculous 1% gets so much attention.
I actually don't think technology people are that bad, not as a class. Most types of ambitious male business people are a lot more vulgar and perverse than the technologists. VC-istan execs tend to have inappropriate, power-imbalanced office affairs, traders and bankers go strip clubs more often than is healthy... programmers swear slightly more than average and some are socially awkward. Not the same category.
I actually don't think technology people are that bad, not as a class. Most types of ambitious male business people are a lot more vulgar and perverse than the technologists. VC-istan execs tend to have inappropriate, power-imbalanced office affairs, traders and bankers go strip clubs more often than is healthy... programmers swear slightly more than average and some are socially awkward. Not the same category.
That's an interesting point. I don't have any real basis to generalize, but I have been in a number of situations where business people think that tech people are too politically correct. Coming from a general view that tech isn't really a role model in that category to begin with, that was surprising to encounter.
My limited time in Europe suggests that European culture on the whole is less attentive on this subject as well. Rather notable lapses in that category also occasionally make HN (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3975588) but usually it somehow avoids the radar, perhaps due to Europe otherwise having a reputation as progressive/liberal.
My limited time in Europe suggests that European culture on the whole is less attentive on this subject as well. Rather notable lapses in that category also occasionally make HN (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3975588) but usually it somehow avoids the radar, perhaps due to Europe otherwise having a reputation as progressive/liberal.
Without overgeneralizing too much, Europe does not have the same culture of political correctness as the US does. If someone makes a joke people get offended less quickly. In this case people would just think of the jokers as immature and move on.
The only exception I can think of is concerning the holocaust.
EDIT: Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time in their life. First you will feel alienated or even offended by many of the things you hear and see. However if you look deep enough (and many people don't) you will understand that neither your culture nor theirs is right.
The only exception I can think of is concerning the holocaust.
EDIT: Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time in their life. First you will feel alienated or even offended by many of the things you hear and see. However if you look deep enough (and many people don't) you will understand that neither your culture nor theirs is right.
I'm an American who lives in Denmark, and I agree, but I'm not sure it is people getting offended less quickly in general, versus on specific subjects. There are plenty of ideas that Danes consider to be completely crazy, not really debatable in polite company. For example, suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark that you couldn't bring it up in a regular social setting. Also, suggesting that healthcare should be a purely private responsibility, not guaranteed by the state, would position you as quite far-right, with even many far-right people distancing themselves from the full extent of that position.
On the other hand, Danes can come across as rather crass about some subjects, especially race.
On the other hand, Danes can come across as rather crass about some subjects, especially race.
That's not necessarily a European view on abortion. Many countries in Europe are strongly catholic (Ireland, Spain, Italy come to mind), and in some cases, the religious views have affected the laws (read: Ireland).
I'm Irish, and abortion is a hotly debated topic; The main people against legalising it are staunchly catholic groups and use this as their basis.
You're right in saying that the anti-abortion movement in Ireland correlates with catholicism, but I think the more staunchly catholic groups are fairly right-wing (not in an extreme, goose-stepping fascist sort of way, necessarily, but more in a Fine Gael sort of way). With that in mind, I think the data in Ireland supports the grandparent's claim that anti-abortion is a right wing movement in Europe.
I think perhaps the confusion here is due to the fact that the Irish don't see themselves as being divided according to the French tradition of left and right, but according to which side of the civil war they think was right.
It's perhaps instructive to note that the people and organisations that oppose abortion in Ireland today are often the same ones that supported Franco's rebellion during the Spanish civil war and that both things were supported for the same reason: catholicism. The Irish right wing has more in common with the right wing in the rest of Europe than it gets credit for.
I think perhaps the confusion here is due to the fact that the Irish don't see themselves as being divided according to the French tradition of left and right, but according to which side of the civil war they think was right.
It's perhaps instructive to note that the people and organisations that oppose abortion in Ireland today are often the same ones that supported Franco's rebellion during the Spanish civil war and that both things were supported for the same reason: catholicism. The Irish right wing has more in common with the right wing in the rest of Europe than it gets credit for.
> On the other hand, Danes can come across as rather crass about some subjects, especially race.
This is a very valuable piece of data!
Despite all that's great about PG's essay: Funny is not an oracle of universal good! Humor is wonderful. It's universal. It's tremendously important, but it does not make you right, and it is not license to do and say whatever you want.
Rationality is wonderful. It's universal and tremendously useful. But we all know that just because a human is applying rationality, that doesn't men she/he is necessarily right. Likewise, what tickles your own funny bone might not tickle someone else's. Humor and rationality are universal. Your own POV and your own application of those are human and flawed.
Funny is not an oracle for all that's good. Most of the time, humor is an orthogonal area of concern. It does not make one righteous, and it's very unlikely that someone failing to be funny gives one an excuse to be self-righteous.
This is a very valuable piece of data!
Despite all that's great about PG's essay: Funny is not an oracle of universal good! Humor is wonderful. It's universal. It's tremendously important, but it does not make you right, and it is not license to do and say whatever you want.
Rationality is wonderful. It's universal and tremendously useful. But we all know that just because a human is applying rationality, that doesn't men she/he is necessarily right. Likewise, what tickles your own funny bone might not tickle someone else's. Humor and rationality are universal. Your own POV and your own application of those are human and flawed.
Funny is not an oracle for all that's good. Most of the time, humor is an orthogonal area of concern. It does not make one righteous, and it's very unlikely that someone failing to be funny gives one an excuse to be self-righteous.
> Also, suggesting that healthcare should be a purely private responsibility, not guaranteed by the state, would position you as quite far-right,
Well, obviously as this is an extreme far right position (I'm american living in Europe and I realize this...).
Well, obviously as this is an extreme far right position (I'm american living in Europe and I realize this...).
Of course, any position you do not agree with must be extreme. Reasonable people are called reasonable because they agree with your reference group.
No, you misunderstand. I never mentioned whether I was right wing or left wing. I was simply pointing out that the the position you mentioned is extreme right wing on the political spectrum. You imagined it to be centralist?
Yes, those would be considered extreme positions in much of Europe. Healthcare privatisation is pretty much a forbidden topic in politics because suggesting it would be political suicide. Nobody wants it.
And banning abortion is tantamount to signing the death warrant on hundreds of young, confused, scared women. So, yeah, these are considered extreme views, because they're extreme.
And banning abortion is tantamount to signing the death warrant on hundreds of young, confused, scared women. So, yeah, these are considered extreme views, because they're extreme.
I don't know if you are US citizen or from other American continent citizenship, but I, as a Frenchman, had the same impression, reverted, with fellow Quebequois boys. When we were casually talking between us about girls, they had a kind of transgression excitement that I did not understand. When asking, they told me they kinda weren't allowed to even think this way in their countries, let alone talking about it.
For me, it was just normal boytalk sharing personal preferences for small or big female body parts, for them it was as exciting as leaking out of school to smoke a cigarette.
I think it goes deeper than that. A remarkable well-documented(#) fact in the history of sexual life is that sexual perversions were much worse in places where sex was considered a sin (eg. the West), than in places were it was considered natural (eg. China).
I am really concerned that, after a while, the sexual PC pressure could backfire in North America. We all know how "Hell is paved", right?
(#) http://www.amazon.com/Sexual-Life-Ancient-China-Gulik/dp/B00...
For me, it was just normal boytalk sharing personal preferences for small or big female body parts, for them it was as exciting as leaking out of school to smoke a cigarette.
I think it goes deeper than that. A remarkable well-documented(#) fact in the history of sexual life is that sexual perversions were much worse in places where sex was considered a sin (eg. the West), than in places were it was considered natural (eg. China).
I am really concerned that, after a while, the sexual PC pressure could backfire in North America. We all know how "Hell is paved", right?
(#) http://www.amazon.com/Sexual-Life-Ancient-China-Gulik/dp/B00...
Interesting. As a Quebecois, I can attest to the fact that we often seem castrated on sexual subjects, and europeans are seen as more casual. Quebecois girls are often seen as "easy prey" to europeans, as they are not used to be around men who are being openly seductive. Before you gloat, though, we also hear horror stories of europeans (especially mediterraneans) who are unable to respect women, so I suppose there is probably a healthy middle-ground somewhere between the two.
As for sexual perversions being worse where sex is considered a sin, that makes a lot of sense. Japan would be a great example: genitals are censored, yet they make some of the weirdest most perverse porn one can think of.
As for sexual perversions being worse where sex is considered a sin, that makes a lot of sense. Japan would be a great example: genitals are censored, yet they make some of the weirdest most perverse porn one can think of.
For me, it was just normal boytalk sharing personal preferences for small or big female body parts, for them it was as exciting as leaking out of school to smoke a cigarette.
Thinking about it I'm regularly seeing kids aged 13 or 14 smoking cigarettes in front of their schools in Paris. French people have a special ability to free themself from the rules.
Thinking about it I'm regularly seeing kids aged 13 or 14 smoking cigarettes in front of their schools in Paris. French people have a special ability to free themself from the rules.
> I don't know if you are US citizen or from other American continent citizenship
LOL! Although the Western Hemisphere is a big place, and North and South America comprise a lot of countries, I can assure you, in standard English, and fair or not, "an American" === "a United States citizen".
LOL! Although the Western Hemisphere is a big place, and North and South America comprise a lot of countries, I can assure you, in standard English, and fair or not, "an American" === "a United States citizen".
You are correct, but there is no reason to be rude.
I'm a Romanian.
> suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark
Personally I think Americans are spoiled.
In Romania under Ceausescu (so before 1989) abortions were illegal. Hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of women (in a country with a population of less than 19 millions) ended up doing illegal abortions under unhealthy, unsanitary conditions. Many of them had health issues because of that, thousands died or were prosecuted for it.
Many of the women that didn't manage to get an abortion, ended up with unwanted children. Conditions were tough as we were living with harsh austerity measures, many of these parents barely had enough money to put food on the table, many of these children grew up in families that didn't want them, many of these unwanted children were given up for adoption, filling the streets with beggars.
Abortions may be murder, but making them illegal is also murder.
If you are interested in what happens when abortions are made illegal, there's a good documentary movie about what happened in Romania. Search for "Copiii lui Ceausescu" (in translation "Ceausescu's Children")
> suggesting that abortion should be illegal, which is a mainstream position in the USA, is such a crazy-far-right position in Denmark
Personally I think Americans are spoiled.
In Romania under Ceausescu (so before 1989) abortions were illegal. Hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions of women (in a country with a population of less than 19 millions) ended up doing illegal abortions under unhealthy, unsanitary conditions. Many of them had health issues because of that, thousands died or were prosecuted for it.
Many of the women that didn't manage to get an abortion, ended up with unwanted children. Conditions were tough as we were living with harsh austerity measures, many of these parents barely had enough money to put food on the table, many of these children grew up in families that didn't want them, many of these unwanted children were given up for adoption, filling the streets with beggars.
Abortions may be murder, but making them illegal is also murder.
If you are interested in what happens when abortions are made illegal, there's a good documentary movie about what happened in Romania. Search for "Copiii lui Ceausescu" (in translation "Ceausescu's Children")
The "face" of abortion that is presented by the anti-abortion crowd is that of the teenager that wants to have sex without care for the consequences. Think rich/middle-class white girl that just wants to 'live it up,' then get an abortion before going out clubbing again, or something. You've also got anti-abortion people that believe crap like, "it's impossible for a rape to impregnate a woman because her body physically prevents it." It's a weird form of cognitive dissonance/stupidity.
Perhaps you are not aware-- that is precisely the same situation as in the United States until Roe v. Wade in 1973. The phenomenon you're describing is pretty common knowledge in our left-wing political circles; on the right, it is deliberately ignored.
Uhm... no. This is factually incorrect. If it's "pretty common knowledge in [your] left-wing political circles", that's fairly pathetic. Roe v. Wade overrode state (and occasionally local)-level laws making abortion illegal, but it did not suddenly switch abortion from "illegal" to "legal" in the entire country. (How could that even happen... from a practical perspective?)
There were 193,491 legal abortions in the US in 1970. Prior to Roe v. Wade, abortion was a state-by-state matter, and the lines were being drawn in fairly predictable ways based on the right/left state-makeup of the time.
There were 193,491 legal abortions in the US in 1970. Prior to Roe v. Wade, abortion was a state-by-state matter, and the lines were being drawn in fairly predictable ways based on the right/left state-makeup of the time.
Your point is well-taken, but I don't think it actually goes against what I'm saying. Abortion in the US was not Federally illegal, but it was illegal for many women and many women died for that. That ended when Roe established it as an affirmative right-- though perhaps not for good, as we're starting to see again entire states where legal abortions are simply not available.
I do appreciate the correction, though I'd have appreciated it more in a more constructive tone.
I do appreciate the correction, though I'd have appreciated it more in a more constructive tone.
Sometimes I think that Romanians (and people who have lived under genuinely despotic regimes) are the only ones who really understand American politics.
When I was working in San Fran (I'm British - live in The Netherlands), the amount of times my colleagues told me, "Sam you're not very PC!" when I made a random funny comment, I always told them, "I know, I'm more of a Mac guy". They weren't offended by my comments I think, but maybe more shocked?
I remember an incident whilst we were walking to lunch, a guy came out of a parking lot with squealing tires... which made me say my most crude comment while I was working there: "Someone is on their period". Sure, I generalised women with that joke, but I didn't mean anything by saying it (just that he was probably cranky..) - it's a joke, the girl I was with could of equally said, "I'm sure that dude has a small penis." I have a regular non-12" cock (I'm not ashamed to admit that) and I wouldn't of been offended. But her comment was, "SAMMM! That's not very PC!". The guy I was with commented, "Ahh, dude, not PC man". All said and done, they were fun people to work with and didn't make a big deal out of it besides commenting, not pc.
Comedians always generalise, and making jokes that are in context with a current situation isn't weird. Come on, loosen up, life is boring when you are forced to only say serious things... We spend most of our lives working. Why should we be forced to spend most of our lives being boring whilst hiding our personality?
This is actually one of the top reasons I'd be afraid of working in the USA again. I don't want to get fired or sued over "sexual harassment" due to a comment like the one I mentioned earlier. That, and the fact that if I'd get fired, I'd have to leave the country within a week...
I do agree, that making a joke specifically about a person you work with, or are in a room with is a big no-no - well, if it's harsh. A meaningless non degrading joke is fine which isn't meant in a serious way. But don't make jokes about people you're with regarding their sex life. People are touchy about that and I can understand. General sex jokes that don't degrade a certain sex? Fine!
In my books, although I find it funny and mean nothing by it, I wouldnt say the following in a work environment: "I have an appointment to get a facial, I'll be back later." - "Lol! Tell him not to get some in your eye!"
I remember an incident whilst we were walking to lunch, a guy came out of a parking lot with squealing tires... which made me say my most crude comment while I was working there: "Someone is on their period". Sure, I generalised women with that joke, but I didn't mean anything by saying it (just that he was probably cranky..) - it's a joke, the girl I was with could of equally said, "I'm sure that dude has a small penis." I have a regular non-12" cock (I'm not ashamed to admit that) and I wouldn't of been offended. But her comment was, "SAMMM! That's not very PC!". The guy I was with commented, "Ahh, dude, not PC man". All said and done, they were fun people to work with and didn't make a big deal out of it besides commenting, not pc.
Comedians always generalise, and making jokes that are in context with a current situation isn't weird. Come on, loosen up, life is boring when you are forced to only say serious things... We spend most of our lives working. Why should we be forced to spend most of our lives being boring whilst hiding our personality?
This is actually one of the top reasons I'd be afraid of working in the USA again. I don't want to get fired or sued over "sexual harassment" due to a comment like the one I mentioned earlier. That, and the fact that if I'd get fired, I'd have to leave the country within a week...
I do agree, that making a joke specifically about a person you work with, or are in a room with is a big no-no - well, if it's harsh. A meaningless non degrading joke is fine which isn't meant in a serious way. But don't make jokes about people you're with regarding their sex life. People are touchy about that and I can understand. General sex jokes that don't degrade a certain sex? Fine!
In my books, although I find it funny and mean nothing by it, I wouldnt say the following in a work environment: "I have an appointment to get a facial, I'll be back later." - "Lol! Tell him not to get some in your eye!"
Well you must understand that what's acceptable is a constantly moving narrative and it moves at different speeds in different cultures. In general humor that works based on demeaning a subset so that the larger majority can laugh at its expense is something that's (slowly) dying. After all, in your initial comment, all your doing is saying "Let me insult this boorish driver by comparing him to a menstruating woman! We can all have a laugh at that right?"
Wow, do people in SF use the term "PC" all the time like that? I've never even heard anyone say that. Also, I have yet to see tremendous displays of people shunning non "PC" comments. So I live/work/grew up in the North-East US. And I say much of the language and jokes are still some what crass and rude. I know a few guys decently high up that drop f-bombs all day long, and nobody blinks, guys in the lab make sexist/elitist jokes left and right, no body cares. (yeah yeah, it's mostly males) But what I've seen, the closer to NY/NJ/Philly you get, the more "un-pc" people get. And sometimes the brutal un-filtered honesty is refreshing to me, to be honest. Or a simple joke about sam having his panties in a knot lightens up the mood a bit.
I used to work on a trading floor in NYC. And man, I doubt anyone (even the women) did not spend the day cursing up a storm. Of course I did too. There's a satisfaction that comes with hanging up with a client (on the phone) and then ripping him apart to your fellow traders for not "spending" enough.
Now, living in South Florida, it's almost the same environment. But, except for a few neighborhoods in Miami, most consider South Florida to be a borough of NYC.
Now, living in South Florida, it's almost the same environment. But, except for a few neighborhoods in Miami, most consider South Florida to be a borough of NYC.
The term PC was originally invented by Reaganite republicans as a piece of propaganda to lampoon the left. The weird thing is that it then ironically caught on, presumably amongst complete dimwits.
Living and working in China (and Europe before that), I can confirm this. Sexism and racism are even completely different affairs outside of the states (more so in Asia than Europe), I'm reminded of that every morning by the design of the toothpaste tube [1] that my wife (innocently, she's Chinese) bought for us to use, which would probably get me arrested in the states if I accidentally packed it.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlie
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlie
Oh come on. Of course that won't get you arrested. You must not be aware of the American cult of Free Speech. Speaking out and being an insensitive asshole is just that, nothing more. It's your actions that determine criminality. Unlike China sometimes, right? ;)
I was using hyperbole. But I do get checked at US customs a lot, it makes think very carefully about what I'm packing (I usually just buy toothpaste in the states, its so much cheaper there anyways). Japanese magazines, for example, are always a big no no.
Anyway, I can recommend anyone to live in another culture for some time [...] if you look deep enough [...] you will understand that neither your culture nor theirs is right.
Sort of. You'll learn a lot about a different culture and you'll learn a lot about the one you were raised in. You also will learn that, in some ways, neither your culture nor the new one is right, that in other areas the new culture is better, and in still others yours is.
Sort of. You'll learn a lot about a different culture and you'll learn a lot about the one you were raised in. You also will learn that, in some ways, neither your culture nor the new one is right, that in other areas the new culture is better, and in still others yours is.
From my view as a Scandinavian your culture seems much more obsessed about sex and punishment than you should. 3-strike system and schools with "zero tolerance" policies are unthinkable here.
I also think it's strange to see how you try to protect TV viewers from nipples and the "F-word".
It's not surprising that it produces people like AR who thinks any offence is worth fighting.
I also think it's strange to see how you try to protect TV viewers from nipples and the "F-word".
It's not surprising that it produces people like AR who thinks any offence is worth fighting.
It seems that the F-word/nipples moratorium is pretty much over. While it's true that broadcast tv still can't show it, cable/satellite tv is pretty ubiquitous and free to bath us in as many nipples and F-words as they please.
As for 3-strikes and "zero tolerance" that's a whole other can of worms. Looking at the disparity in US crime statistics vs Scandinavian countries, it's pretty understandable that cultural attitudes toward legal punishment are so different. 3-strikes and "zero tolerance" are wrong headed and ineffective, in my view, but you can at least empathize with the motivation (as opposed to the whole nipple thing)
As for 3-strikes and "zero tolerance" that's a whole other can of worms. Looking at the disparity in US crime statistics vs Scandinavian countries, it's pretty understandable that cultural attitudes toward legal punishment are so different. 3-strikes and "zero tolerance" are wrong headed and ineffective, in my view, but you can at least empathize with the motivation (as opposed to the whole nipple thing)
I have heard they're technically allowed to, but in practice, cable networks do not seem to feel free to air nudity or strong swearing. Only the "premium" channels like HBO and Showtime do that. No matter how "edgy" MTV wants to be, everyone will keep their clothes on.
It's the pay channels that are "free" to do whatever they want. HBO, Showtime, Stars (etc) are all pay.
Oddly though, Showtime for example sometimes air soft-core porn late a night. And while tits and ass are bouncing everywhere I have yet to see the "money shots". Male or female.
Oddly though, Showtime for example sometimes air soft-core porn late a night. And while tits and ass are bouncing everywhere I have yet to see the "money shots". Male or female.
The truth, which is ugly, is that the white-collar Work culture that has existed for over 200 years is based on some extremely sexist assumptions. It's designed in a way that makes it very difficult for women to fit in, in any stable and reliable way. Additionally, most of the things about Work that make it hard for women are also deeply defective attributes (e.g. male dominance hierarchies) of it that are maladaptive in the 21st century.
Technology is still defective, but it's less-so than most other industries.
The difference, and the reason there are fewer women in technology than the more defective culture of banking, is that technology's appeal is to risk-seekers and idealists... who tend in this particular context, for a variety of (probably cultural) reasons, to be men.
To the extent that technology has problems, most of that comes from tech executives who swoop in to take advantage of idealistic (and socially awkward) tech people, then encourage an imbalanced and nasty culture.
Technology is still defective, but it's less-so than most other industries.
The difference, and the reason there are fewer women in technology than the more defective culture of banking, is that technology's appeal is to risk-seekers and idealists... who tend in this particular context, for a variety of (probably cultural) reasons, to be men.
To the extent that technology has problems, most of that comes from tech executives who swoop in to take advantage of idealistic (and socially awkward) tech people, then encourage an imbalanced and nasty culture.
Is this a troll? I don't know your history, but I've heard that you have one, so... If this is a troll, someone let me know, please. Otherwise...
>It's designed in a way that makes it very difficult for women to fit in, in any stable and reliable way. Additionally
You can't just make a statement, not provide evidence, and then say "additionally...". You haven't proven your first point.
What sexist assumptions is white-collar Work [sic] culture based on?
And how is it designed such that it is difficult for women to fit in?
>the reason there are fewer women in technology than the more defective culture of banking, is that technology's appeal is to risk-seekers and idealists
This is such a ridiculous claim I don't even know where to begin. First off, I can tell you've never been anywhere near a trading floor, or a commercial bank for that matter. The entire industry is based on risk. What do you think trading is? The calculated harnessing of risk. You make bets. That is all. Pure risk. FAR more risky than technology. And further the proportion of people who are taking risks in finance is MUCH higher than the proportion who are taking risks in technology. There's only one founder per company in tech; there are 100 traders for every founder in a bank.
>To the extent that technology has problems, most of that comes from tech executives who swoop in to take advantage of idealistic (and socially awkward) tech people, then encourage an imbalanced and nasty culture.
Take advantage HOW?
And HOW does that create the problems we're currently seeing in tech?
I don't like the way you speak in platitudes. Completely devoid of content. I don't know who you are, I know you have a reputation, though, and I am ready to weather a storm in the name of truth.
>It's designed in a way that makes it very difficult for women to fit in, in any stable and reliable way. Additionally
You can't just make a statement, not provide evidence, and then say "additionally...". You haven't proven your first point.
What sexist assumptions is white-collar Work [sic] culture based on?
And how is it designed such that it is difficult for women to fit in?
>the reason there are fewer women in technology than the more defective culture of banking, is that technology's appeal is to risk-seekers and idealists
This is such a ridiculous claim I don't even know where to begin. First off, I can tell you've never been anywhere near a trading floor, or a commercial bank for that matter. The entire industry is based on risk. What do you think trading is? The calculated harnessing of risk. You make bets. That is all. Pure risk. FAR more risky than technology. And further the proportion of people who are taking risks in finance is MUCH higher than the proportion who are taking risks in technology. There's only one founder per company in tech; there are 100 traders for every founder in a bank.
>To the extent that technology has problems, most of that comes from tech executives who swoop in to take advantage of idealistic (and socially awkward) tech people, then encourage an imbalanced and nasty culture.
Take advantage HOW?
And HOW does that create the problems we're currently seeing in tech?
I don't like the way you speak in platitudes. Completely devoid of content. I don't know who you are, I know you have a reputation, though, and I am ready to weather a storm in the name of truth.
>Is this a troll?
Wow. After reading both of your contributions to this thread you stand our far more as the troll to my eyes.
>What sexist assumptions is white-collar Work [sic] culture based on?
Are you seriously saying "white-collar work culture" isn't sexist?
Pop quiz: how many female CEOs are there in the fortune 100? If you're guess was closer to 8 (the actual number) than 50 would you mind explaining why you would guess that?
>The calculated harnessing of risk.
You're talking about over all risk, he was talking about personal risk of which trading has very little compared to other career options.
>Take advantage HOW?
Must one recount the total sum of all knowledge in every post for you? It's pretty well established how and why tech people are exploited. If you haven't been keeping up then that's your responsibility to educate yourself. Not every poster from now until the sun burns out to keep reiterating our collective accumulated knowledge and experience.
Wow. After reading both of your contributions to this thread you stand our far more as the troll to my eyes.
>What sexist assumptions is white-collar Work [sic] culture based on?
Are you seriously saying "white-collar work culture" isn't sexist?
Pop quiz: how many female CEOs are there in the fortune 100? If you're guess was closer to 8 (the actual number) than 50 would you mind explaining why you would guess that?
>The calculated harnessing of risk.
You're talking about over all risk, he was talking about personal risk of which trading has very little compared to other career options.
>Take advantage HOW?
Must one recount the total sum of all knowledge in every post for you? It's pretty well established how and why tech people are exploited. If you haven't been keeping up then that's your responsibility to educate yourself. Not every poster from now until the sun burns out to keep reiterating our collective accumulated knowledge and experience.
>Pop quiz: how many female CEOs are there in the fortune 100? If you're guess was closer to 8 (the actual number) than 50 would you mind explaining why you would guess that?
You know what's sexist? Assuming that a certain demographic makeup for a role in an industry is makes the culture sexist. The fact that 8% of F100 CEOs are male doesn't indicate sexism without further evidence, just like the fact that only 5% of nurses are male[1] doesn't indicate sexism without further evidence. Where is your further evidence?
And BTW, it's "your", not "you're".
> It's pretty well established how and why tech people are exploited
No it isn't. Nobody even agrees on what constitutes exploitation. I'm not satisfied with the intellectual laziness you're advocating for, sorry.
[1] - http://www.minoritynurse.com/minority-nursing-statistics
You know what's sexist? Assuming that a certain demographic makeup for a role in an industry is makes the culture sexist. The fact that 8% of F100 CEOs are male doesn't indicate sexism without further evidence, just like the fact that only 5% of nurses are male[1] doesn't indicate sexism without further evidence. Where is your further evidence?
And BTW, it's "your", not "you're".
> It's pretty well established how and why tech people are exploited
No it isn't. Nobody even agrees on what constitutes exploitation. I'm not satisfied with the intellectual laziness you're advocating for, sorry.
[1] - http://www.minoritynurse.com/minority-nursing-statistics
I don't know your history, but I've heard that you have one
Only one? I have, like, at least five or six, my friend.
What sexist assumptions is white-collar Work [sic] culture based on? And how is it designed such that it is difficult for women to fit in?
Dedication and ability are assessed, in most corporations, based on antiquated, counterproductive, and fascistic reliability measures that disfavor, for one example, taking maternity (or paternity) leave or dedicating substantial energy to childcare. For a variety of reasons, some cultural, reproduction and child-raising ends up taking more of a woman's time than a man's.
It's almost impossible to take 5 years out of the career game and come back in with the standing you had when you left. While that's not sexist per se, it's incredibly fucking inhumane, and happens to inflict more harm on women.
First off, I can tell you've never been anywhere near a trading floor, or a commercial bank for that matter. The entire industry is based on risk. What do you think trading is? The calculated harnessing of risk. You make bets. That is all. Pure risk. FAR more risky than technology.
Oh, come on. You really think making $250,000 plus commission is "risky"? Yes, if you have a bad year and the firm isn't doing well, you might get fired. Here, "fired" means you get a shit bonus, and 4 months to find another job, usually a promotion. Yeah, that's risk all right.
I know enough about finance to know what I'm talking about here. I'm not denigrating financial professionals. I've worked in a few Wall Street jobs, and liked most of the people. But it's not risky to work there. Risk (with others' funds) is part of the operational calculus but it's not personally risky to be an employee.
Sure, there's financial risk (again, with others' money) involved, but you have much bigger risks as a technology founder. Like losing your savings (bootstrapping failure) or risking 3 years of your career on something that turns into a no-name dud. Or you could do a great job, get screwed over by partners or investors or management, get fired with no severance and your stock diluted in some perverse way. Shit like that happens.
Playing games with other peoples' money (and getting a resume/credibility boost no matter what happens) isn't nearly as risky as putting 3 years of your life into something that might wreck your career for reasons that aren't your fault.
Take advantage HOW?
There's a set of very talented people who have no sense of their real worth, crappy negotiation skills, and an idealistic willingness to work long hours. Most of VC-istan is about turning them into pure gold for well-connected investors and useless executive implants (read: VCs' well-connected, underachieving friends). Who do you think is paying $2 million for small houses in Silicon Valley? Not programmers with their 0.03% slices of things that got beaten to shit by multiple liquidation preferences.
I know you have a reputation, though, and I am ready to weather a storm in the name of truth.
Good for you.
Only one? I have, like, at least five or six, my friend.
What sexist assumptions is white-collar Work [sic] culture based on? And how is it designed such that it is difficult for women to fit in?
Dedication and ability are assessed, in most corporations, based on antiquated, counterproductive, and fascistic reliability measures that disfavor, for one example, taking maternity (or paternity) leave or dedicating substantial energy to childcare. For a variety of reasons, some cultural, reproduction and child-raising ends up taking more of a woman's time than a man's.
It's almost impossible to take 5 years out of the career game and come back in with the standing you had when you left. While that's not sexist per se, it's incredibly fucking inhumane, and happens to inflict more harm on women.
First off, I can tell you've never been anywhere near a trading floor, or a commercial bank for that matter. The entire industry is based on risk. What do you think trading is? The calculated harnessing of risk. You make bets. That is all. Pure risk. FAR more risky than technology.
Oh, come on. You really think making $250,000 plus commission is "risky"? Yes, if you have a bad year and the firm isn't doing well, you might get fired. Here, "fired" means you get a shit bonus, and 4 months to find another job, usually a promotion. Yeah, that's risk all right.
I know enough about finance to know what I'm talking about here. I'm not denigrating financial professionals. I've worked in a few Wall Street jobs, and liked most of the people. But it's not risky to work there. Risk (with others' funds) is part of the operational calculus but it's not personally risky to be an employee.
Sure, there's financial risk (again, with others' money) involved, but you have much bigger risks as a technology founder. Like losing your savings (bootstrapping failure) or risking 3 years of your career on something that turns into a no-name dud. Or you could do a great job, get screwed over by partners or investors or management, get fired with no severance and your stock diluted in some perverse way. Shit like that happens.
Playing games with other peoples' money (and getting a resume/credibility boost no matter what happens) isn't nearly as risky as putting 3 years of your life into something that might wreck your career for reasons that aren't your fault.
Take advantage HOW?
There's a set of very talented people who have no sense of their real worth, crappy negotiation skills, and an idealistic willingness to work long hours. Most of VC-istan is about turning them into pure gold for well-connected investors and useless executive implants (read: VCs' well-connected, underachieving friends). Who do you think is paying $2 million for small houses in Silicon Valley? Not programmers with their 0.03% slices of things that got beaten to shit by multiple liquidation preferences.
I know you have a reputation, though, and I am ready to weather a storm in the name of truth.
Good for you.
"Playing games with other peoples' money (and getting a resume/credibility boost no matter what happens) isn't nearly as risky ..."
Changing the subject a bit...
Having been a trader, I think that's a major problem with our system. A trader today rarely has his own skin in the game. Or even the firms skin in most cases. It's hella easier to make VERY risky bets with other people money.
Changing the subject a bit...
Having been a trader, I think that's a major problem with our system. A trader today rarely has his own skin in the game. Or even the firms skin in most cases. It's hella easier to make VERY risky bets with other people money.
You write in such a protracted, drawn-out fashion that it is hard to understand what you are saying. Please permit me to clarify.
>Dedication and ability are assessed, in most corporations, based on antiquated, counterproductive, and fascistic reliability measures that disfavor, for one example, taking maternity (or paternity) leave or dedicating substantial energy to childcare
White-collar work inherently discriminates against women because they could possibly get pregnant. Is this what you are saying?
>You really think making $250,000 plus commission is "risky"
Yes, that is why people are hired at such high salaries. Because they do well for a couple of years and then flame out, never to work in the industry again. Again, you are clearly far removed from the industry so I don't fault you for not knowing how compensation works in said industry. But it isn't like you're walking into a golden ticket. If you don't meet bar, you don't get your bonus, which is more often than not the bulk of your "salary". And then you get canned. No remorse. that is risk.
>it's not personally risky to be an employee.
I don't understand how you can say this if you've actually worked for Wall Street firms.
>Like losing your savings (bootstrapping failure)
Smart founders don't tap their savings dry on an unsure bet.
>Playing games with other peoples' money (and getting a resume/credibility boost no matter what happens) isn't nearly as risky as putting 3 years of your life into something that might wreck your career for reasons that aren't your fault.
Except that it is way MORE risky. If you start a company and fail, at least you can say "I started a company and failed" and the Silicon Valley Brigade will give you a job as a Rails programmer. If you fail slinging options, you're never working in that field again. Literally.
I agree with your assessment of VCistan, now that you've expanded on it.
>Dedication and ability are assessed, in most corporations, based on antiquated, counterproductive, and fascistic reliability measures that disfavor, for one example, taking maternity (or paternity) leave or dedicating substantial energy to childcare
White-collar work inherently discriminates against women because they could possibly get pregnant. Is this what you are saying?
>You really think making $250,000 plus commission is "risky"
Yes, that is why people are hired at such high salaries. Because they do well for a couple of years and then flame out, never to work in the industry again. Again, you are clearly far removed from the industry so I don't fault you for not knowing how compensation works in said industry. But it isn't like you're walking into a golden ticket. If you don't meet bar, you don't get your bonus, which is more often than not the bulk of your "salary". And then you get canned. No remorse. that is risk.
>it's not personally risky to be an employee.
I don't understand how you can say this if you've actually worked for Wall Street firms.
>Like losing your savings (bootstrapping failure)
Smart founders don't tap their savings dry on an unsure bet.
>Playing games with other peoples' money (and getting a resume/credibility boost no matter what happens) isn't nearly as risky as putting 3 years of your life into something that might wreck your career for reasons that aren't your fault.
Except that it is way MORE risky. If you start a company and fail, at least you can say "I started a company and failed" and the Silicon Valley Brigade will give you a job as a Rails programmer. If you fail slinging options, you're never working in that field again. Literally.
I agree with your assessment of VCistan, now that you've expanded on it.
"If you start a company and fail, at least you can say "I started a company and failed" and the Silicon Valley Brigade will give you a job as a Rails programmer."
Haha, this happened to me exactly. I didn't even know Ruby. Or Rails!
Haha, this happened to me exactly. I didn't even know Ruby. Or Rails!
>>Dedication and ability are assessed, in most corporations, based on antiquated, counterproductive, and fascistic reliability measures that disfavor, for one example, taking maternity (or paternity) leave or dedicating substantial energy to childcare
>White-collar work inherently discriminates against women because they could possibly get pregnant. Is this what you are saying?
I think what he's saying is, actual experience is worthless. The person that has performed an action 100 times is exactly as qualified as the person that has performed it 10,000 times.
Whether you were coding (or doing open heart surgery) for 20% vs 80% of the last 5 years is not relevant. If you have a computer science degree, or a medical degree, that is what really matters. The entire concept of estimating ability based on whether you have actually written a significant amount of code, or have actually performed a significant amount of medical operations, is a flawed concept.
I think that's the essence of what he's saying.
>White-collar work inherently discriminates against women because they could possibly get pregnant. Is this what you are saying?
I think what he's saying is, actual experience is worthless. The person that has performed an action 100 times is exactly as qualified as the person that has performed it 10,000 times.
Whether you were coding (or doing open heart surgery) for 20% vs 80% of the last 5 years is not relevant. If you have a computer science degree, or a medical degree, that is what really matters. The entire concept of estimating ability based on whether you have actually written a significant amount of code, or have actually performed a significant amount of medical operations, is a flawed concept.
I think that's the essence of what he's saying.
Your point about the fate of failed options traders does not gel with what I've seen. Yes, you get canned if you do poorly. Sometimes, just for being unlucky. (Startups work that way, too. Every job, these days, does that.) Also, it's correct that bonus is most of total compensation for top people-- sometimes over 90%-- which means not getting one really blows, but Wall Street salaries aren't exactly bad. If you were expecting a $3 million bonus, on top of your $250,000 salary, and got a Goose Egg during Comp, then are canned a month later with 6 months' severance, well... my heart bleeds for you. You've got half a year to get another job and, unless the market's completely fucked (cf. 2008) you'll get a promotion. Failed trading options? You'll trade something else if you want to trade, or you can move elsewhere. VCs will fund anyone with the Finance Stamp of Approval, at least in New York. Foursquare for ostrich farm? Here's your rocket fuel, now hire some ninjas and move the needle.
Personally, though, I wouldn't want to be a trader. Quant is as close to that game as I'd want to go. I've seen what traders do and it doesn't look fun. It's not professionally risky, but it's still very stressful. I'll give you that.
Sure, you can get another job after a failed startup, but usually as a subordinate, and that's viewed as dishonorable after 35 and untenable past 40. If you fail as a derivatives trader, VC-istan will let you be a founder. Sure, you're going from $250k plus a possible 1000% bonus to $200k and 15% of a startup. Again, my heart bleeds.
Personally, though, I wouldn't want to be a trader. Quant is as close to that game as I'd want to go. I've seen what traders do and it doesn't look fun. It's not professionally risky, but it's still very stressful. I'll give you that.
Sure, you can get another job after a failed startup, but usually as a subordinate, and that's viewed as dishonorable after 35 and untenable past 40. If you fail as a derivatives trader, VC-istan will let you be a founder. Sure, you're going from $250k plus a possible 1000% bonus to $200k and 15% of a startup. Again, my heart bleeds.
It's almost impossible to take 5 years out of the career game and come back in with the standing you had when you left. While that's not sexist per se, it's incredibly fucking inhumane, and happens to inflict more harm on women
This is not good, I agree with that, but how can it be different? After 5 years off, your lost track of everything that happened, you're 5 years older and 5 years rustier, and, most importantly, somebody else took care of those things you were taking care of - you're not needed as you were when you took off. Now, in big impersonal bureaucracies, this can be not so big a problem, but in most places it is.
IMHO the solution to the actual problem can't be in just saying "that's not a problem, it only is because of sexism/tradition/whatever". By the way, I don't have a solution.
This is not good, I agree with that, but how can it be different? After 5 years off, your lost track of everything that happened, you're 5 years older and 5 years rustier, and, most importantly, somebody else took care of those things you were taking care of - you're not needed as you were when you took off. Now, in big impersonal bureaucracies, this can be not so big a problem, but in most places it is.
IMHO the solution to the actual problem can't be in just saying "that's not a problem, it only is because of sexism/tradition/whatever". By the way, I don't have a solution.
> It's almost impossible to take 5 years out of the career game and come back in with the standing you had when you left. While that's not sexist per se, it's incredibly fucking inhumane, and happens to inflict more harm on women.
I couldn't hire someone who had five years without any practice in their trade to most of the positions I hire for.
You seem to be implying that I shouldn't even be considering that in the past 5 years, between two applicants, one has been in the trade, practicing and producing work, and the other hasn't.
That different life choices have different outcomes isn't sexist.
I couldn't hire someone who had five years without any practice in their trade to most of the positions I hire for.
You seem to be implying that I shouldn't even be considering that in the past 5 years, between two applicants, one has been in the trade, practicing and producing work, and the other hasn't.
That different life choices have different outcomes isn't sexist.
"The entire industry is based on risk."
The entire industry is based on a business model which only a monkey could fuck up, yet the industry manages to fuck it up (as Taleb writes).
You do realize that all these risk computation are totally bogus and led to big trouble in 2008 right?
And that there's no risk because when the shit hit the fan bankster simply go say they're too big too fail and get bailed out.
And at that point they're effectively on life support and, still as Taleb is saying it, they should shut the fuck up.
Don't talk about risk when the only risk is being bailed out by public money once you, of course, miscomputed the risk.
Wanna talk about all the banks in the eurozone that needed a bail out in the recent years since Greece defaulted because they didn't correctly analyze the Greece state default risk?
Hint: it's far from over and far more fucked up than most people think and more banks will be bailed out again with public money (starting with Cyprus right now).
Yet in 1999 economists did warn about precisely that: about the euro that would lead to both Spain and Greece doing state default. Who listened?
Where in the financial world did anyone listen to that and take that risk into account? Nowhere.
Nobody.
Because public money is always here to bail out.
So please stop telling us there's risk. It's all a freakin' broken model and the entire financial system ain't there to provide liquidity anymore: it's become something out of control trying to shift as much money around as possible in order to generate as much "rake" as possible.
And if these monkeys didn't even correctly manage the risk on something as essential as state debt, when having all the information available to correctly compute such a risk (including warning from economists that defaults would be coming), what makes you think they'd be able to compute the risk on more complicated products, like CDS and all the crazy stuff that this industry simply makes up in order to take a bigger rake on all the money shifted around?
It's a bunch of quants who've lost it: they're out of touch with the real world and can't understand something as basic as the inevitability of a state defaulting when facing the facts.
And you're trying to tell us that they know what taking risk is?
Risk is entrepreneurs putting their personal belongings on the line. Not a bunch of sick gamblers using broken models to try to generate more and more money with the public money that is keeping their employers alive.
"The black swan" is a pretty good book. Of course it's not "nice" towards people like you. Sadly he was right and predicted correctly what would happen, contrarily to all the supposedly "risk takers" you seem to be so fond of because they'd be taking such amazing risks.
The entire industry is based on a business model which only a monkey could fuck up, yet the industry manages to fuck it up (as Taleb writes).
You do realize that all these risk computation are totally bogus and led to big trouble in 2008 right?
And that there's no risk because when the shit hit the fan bankster simply go say they're too big too fail and get bailed out.
And at that point they're effectively on life support and, still as Taleb is saying it, they should shut the fuck up.
Don't talk about risk when the only risk is being bailed out by public money once you, of course, miscomputed the risk.
Wanna talk about all the banks in the eurozone that needed a bail out in the recent years since Greece defaulted because they didn't correctly analyze the Greece state default risk?
Hint: it's far from over and far more fucked up than most people think and more banks will be bailed out again with public money (starting with Cyprus right now).
Yet in 1999 economists did warn about precisely that: about the euro that would lead to both Spain and Greece doing state default. Who listened?
Where in the financial world did anyone listen to that and take that risk into account? Nowhere.
Nobody.
Because public money is always here to bail out.
So please stop telling us there's risk. It's all a freakin' broken model and the entire financial system ain't there to provide liquidity anymore: it's become something out of control trying to shift as much money around as possible in order to generate as much "rake" as possible.
And if these monkeys didn't even correctly manage the risk on something as essential as state debt, when having all the information available to correctly compute such a risk (including warning from economists that defaults would be coming), what makes you think they'd be able to compute the risk on more complicated products, like CDS and all the crazy stuff that this industry simply makes up in order to take a bigger rake on all the money shifted around?
It's a bunch of quants who've lost it: they're out of touch with the real world and can't understand something as basic as the inevitability of a state defaulting when facing the facts.
And you're trying to tell us that they know what taking risk is?
Risk is entrepreneurs putting their personal belongings on the line. Not a bunch of sick gamblers using broken models to try to generate more and more money with the public money that is keeping their employers alive.
"The black swan" is a pretty good book. Of course it's not "nice" towards people like you. Sadly he was right and predicted correctly what would happen, contrarily to all the supposedly "risk takers" you seem to be so fond of because they'd be taking such amazing risks.
So, simultaneously the banks too stupid to understand risks or perhaps tie their shoes, and at the same time the critics are so smart they would have been able to put the rest of the industry out of business with their prescience but didn't attempt such.
Yes, I have also read "the Black Swan". "Fooled by Randomness", too (which is much better), and "Antifragile" as well. Let's all go read some books. I am unsure of the point you are trying to make, largely because you don't make a point in this post.
I like this post.
Business sociopathy is a complex topic but the essence of it can be summed up in 6 words: Heads, I win. Tails, you lose.
Business sociopathy is a complex topic but the essence of it can be summed up in 6 words: Heads, I win. Tails, you lose.
'Technology' is such a broad field. I can tell you categorically that most people at the large technology company I work for are not in the slightest bit interested in risk. They want a regular salary to pay the mortgage and support their family and they want regular hours. There's very few idealists in my office either. Most people in technology (programming and engineering) are there because they had some sort of aptitude for it at school. There's a few idealists, and a few risk takers, but they are not the majority. The bulk of technology firms are large, established and secure.
Somewhat ironically, you've now threadbombed this story with discussions of that ridiculous 1% by mentioning it :)
I know that probably wasn't your intention, but please let's not turn this story into one of those interminable threads about gender relations, there are enough of those elsewhere.
I know that probably wasn't your intention, but please let's not turn this story into one of those interminable threads about gender relations, there are enough of those elsewhere.
The article itself was playing on that 1%, both with title and the first paragraph. I wouldn't blame michaelochurch for mentioning it.
Who is Michael O. Church? He seems to have lots of top comments on this site. Is it mostly because if the interesting (and voluminous) stuff he writes about office politics? Or is there more of a story here? I haven't found much.
>"programmers swear slightly more than average and some are socially awkward"
I agree, but it will be interesting to watch this trend shift over time. There was a time in the not-so-distant past when if you were a computer guy, you were a "geek". Computers were for "geeks", which meant at least one of your parents was a "geek" to involve you with computers as a child. And, generally, "geeks" may be awkward socially, but are pretty normal, easy-going people (obviously generalizing here, but I also consider myself part of this group). You can see this represented in the pop-culture of the past 30 years.
But that stigma is definitely disappearing, if it hasn't disappeared already. What will the place look like when the would-be Alpha-males of the financial world (which has been gutted as a career) go to the next best place to make a killing, where the money flows like water? Is it already happening?
I agree, but it will be interesting to watch this trend shift over time. There was a time in the not-so-distant past when if you were a computer guy, you were a "geek". Computers were for "geeks", which meant at least one of your parents was a "geek" to involve you with computers as a child. And, generally, "geeks" may be awkward socially, but are pretty normal, easy-going people (obviously generalizing here, but I also consider myself part of this group). You can see this represented in the pop-culture of the past 30 years.
But that stigma is definitely disappearing, if it hasn't disappeared already. What will the place look like when the would-be Alpha-males of the financial world (which has been gutted as a career) go to the next best place to make a killing, where the money flows like water? Is it already happening?
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Totally agree. So much going on today makes a bad name for everybody in the startup/tech community :{
What can you do? Just kick out a few funny tweets.
I decided to promote my card game: https://twitter.com/MichaelOChurch/status/314934411223252995
I think the PlayHaven guy will be fine. All he needs to do is say, "I'm the Dongle Guy". Adria didn't deserve the Internet hatred (which probably came mostly from trolls and assholes, not tech people) but her getting fired wasn't unreasonable. If you're a tech evangelist, your job is PR and you ought to know that public shaming is Seriously Not Cool.
I decided to promote my card game: https://twitter.com/MichaelOChurch/status/314934411223252995
I think the PlayHaven guy will be fine. All he needs to do is say, "I'm the Dongle Guy". Adria didn't deserve the Internet hatred (which probably came mostly from trolls and assholes, not tech people) but her getting fired wasn't unreasonable. If you're a tech evangelist, your job is PR and you ought to know that public shaming is Seriously Not Cool.
This is a pretty unrelated question, but how does one find out about these conferences? I typically only hear about them afterward (Heroku's Waza and now PyCon). Are there any that are known to be particularly good?
Additionally, any recommendations for which to try to attend as a first year computer science student?
Additionally, any recommendations for which to try to attend as a first year computer science student?
Thanks! Such a shame that if you want something in Europe, you have to look country by country, since selecting "Europe" returns no results.
If you're looking for Python cons, You should definitely check out DjangoCon 2013 in Warsaw, Poland (http://2013.djangocon.eu/, 15-19 May, possibly sold out) and EuroPython in Florence, Italy (https://ep2013.europython.eu/, 1-7 Juli).
PyCon's a yearly thing and has been for a while. Newer cons will make a post to a place like HN. There's a con coming up this year that I got contacted about because I went to one that is being run by organizers of a different con I went to a few years ago.
This was my first PyCon and I had an awesome time.
There were so many interesting talks and I have so many new ideas that I am going to hack on when I get home. It's a shame that I didn't meet as many people as I would have liked.
It's a real shame that all the good things that went on seem to have been forgotten.
There were so many interesting talks and I have so many new ideas that I am going to hack on when I get home. It's a shame that I didn't meet as many people as I would have liked.
It's a real shame that all the good things that went on seem to have been forgotten.
I hope it's a good message that there were only 2 problems PyCon staff had to deal with - but I wish the current shitstorm had stopped here: http://pycon.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inappr...
Do we know that those pertain to the same incident? It seems likely to me that they don't.
They don't. One was at the testing BoF. http://term.ie/blog/how-to-get-banned-from-pycon/
This is good, it's sad that someone doing something stupid and making a spectacle had to overshadow people getting together and doing interesting stuff.
Thank you - so good to hear something positive.
I had a great time at PyCon. My son who is 7 attended young coders and learned a lot. All the kids got Pi's too so now we have two Pi's to work on.
I did not even hear about the Twitter incident. I consider it a twitter incident and not real.
I did not even hear about the Twitter incident. I consider it a twitter incident and not real.
It was really, really cool to see all the young folks around this year. I'm glad your son could come.
Great write-up!
I'm a Ruby developer, but it sounds like your community is really excellent. I'd love to come check out PyCon sometime in the future.
I'm a Ruby developer, but it sounds like your community is really excellent. I'd love to come check out PyCon sometime in the future.
I almost went this year, and I often go to Python related events if I'm around when they happen. You should go.
Thank you.
Also don't forget that we had an amazing Python Data conference during the sprints, with over 300 people and featuring Peter Norvig and Fernando Perez as speakers.
http://pydata.org
Also don't forget that we had an amazing Python Data conference during the sprints, with over 300 people and featuring Peter Norvig and Fernando Perez as speakers.
http://pydata.org
I really enjoyed Pycon. I had never attended a Pycon, nor dealt with the Python community at large but the day I listened to Jesse Noller's keynote I knew I was in the right place. He discussed the values of teaching children, being an inclusive community, and philanthropy. I thought I was attending to get my Python on and discovered the warm fluffy side of a beautiful community. These people really mean well.
At Pycon I met the developers and project maintainers of high-profile projects I use all of the time like Django and SQLAlchemy. Heck, I paid $150 to receive classroom training from Mike Bayer himself. How inexpensive is that to receive training from the developer and maintainer of SQLAlchemy himself?
The tutorials were incredibly useful, the keynotes moving (Noller, Hettinger, etc.), the sessions well-produced and all of the speakers well-spoken.
I feel like we stole my ticket for as inexpensive as the trip was for me and several developers our company drug along.
How did they do? Awesome. I would like to say thank you to the PSF for such an incredible conference. My entire dev staff will be attending next year!
At Pycon I met the developers and project maintainers of high-profile projects I use all of the time like Django and SQLAlchemy. Heck, I paid $150 to receive classroom training from Mike Bayer himself. How inexpensive is that to receive training from the developer and maintainer of SQLAlchemy himself?
The tutorials were incredibly useful, the keynotes moving (Noller, Hettinger, etc.), the sessions well-produced and all of the speakers well-spoken.
I feel like we stole my ticket for as inexpensive as the trip was for me and several developers our company drug along.
How did they do? Awesome. I would like to say thank you to the PSF for such an incredible conference. My entire dev staff will be attending next year!
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This is the PyCon news I wanted to see!
To the top with you! This almost exactly mirrors my experience, right down to last year being my first PyCon and giving a lightning talk this year for the first time. It was an amazing experience, and I applaud all those who worked so hard to make it great for everyone, Jesse Noller especially.
Author here. It's so nice to see the conversation get back to all the good things that go on at PyCon.
Hear hear. I learned a great deal about the IPython Notebook and Python 3 this year. Pycon was a great time.
In the Adria Richards trial there are 2 upstanding people. Jim Frankiln (CEO of Sendgrid) Who offered not only a pertinent, but fair fair reaction to this entire thing, but also The Pycon staff members. Who, without ego or vendetta, enforced the rules as described. I salute both of these people.
> Eben Upton, one of the creators of the Raspberry Pi,
> shared with us the brilliant insight that many young
> people used to have to “choose not to program” when
> they turned their computers on, in order to play games
Amstrad 128k Microcomputer (v3)
© 1985 Amstrad Computer Electronics plc
and Locomotive Software Ltd.
BASIC 1.1
Ready
I love that the Pi attempts to revive this for today's kids. At the moment I think the closest they come to anything resembling code is if they use Firefox or Chrome and accidentally stumble into the developer tools.
If you think about it, a shell prompt is just as much of an invitation to code. It's only really the GUI that changed this.
I agree that the GUI is the likely culprit.
Though, as far as hacking goes, I'd almost prefer a BASIC prompt [or `irb`, `idle`, or any other number of modern REPLs] as opposed to a shell prompt.
I can hack away at bash scripts... but bash just doesn't seem as warm and inviting as BASIC was.
I think part of that is: shells are _primarily_ an interface to your filesystem. They offer IO redirection and the ability to run arbitrary executables.
While their scripting facilities are certainly "complete", and plenty usable, I'd disagree that they're designed for it.
When I fudge my fingers writing some Ruby, Go, Python, or Perl, the compiler or interpreter is usually pretty helpful in guiding me to my mistake. Often times it's also helpful in _suggesting_ the means to fix that mistake.
When shell scripting goes _wrong_, (as it often _will_ for a complete novice), I don't think the shell is as helpful in correcting the mistake.
That's my $.02 anyways.
Though, as far as hacking goes, I'd almost prefer a BASIC prompt [or `irb`, `idle`, or any other number of modern REPLs] as opposed to a shell prompt.
I can hack away at bash scripts... but bash just doesn't seem as warm and inviting as BASIC was.
I think part of that is: shells are _primarily_ an interface to your filesystem. They offer IO redirection and the ability to run arbitrary executables.
While their scripting facilities are certainly "complete", and plenty usable, I'd disagree that they're designed for it.
When I fudge my fingers writing some Ruby, Go, Python, or Perl, the compiler or interpreter is usually pretty helpful in guiding me to my mistake. Often times it's also helpful in _suggesting_ the means to fix that mistake.
When shell scripting goes _wrong_, (as it often _will_ for a complete novice), I don't think the shell is as helpful in correcting the mistake.
That's my $.02 anyways.
"The last 24 hours have been some of the ugliest on the internet."
Uh, no. There are far far uglier things that happen on the internet. every. single. day.
Uh, no. There are far far uglier things that happen on the internet. every. single. day.
That's a very refreshing use of a link bait title for a change ;)
to your point about intro programming courses and python:
my wife used to teach python to gifted middle schoolers as an intro programming course. she brought this up at a regional educator's event when the speaker asked if anyone was doing intro to programming in a language other than VB (or something else, maybe Java). my wife raised her hand sheepishly and said "I used python". everyone was suddenly interested.
the kids did great with python, but she eventually gave up on it because the kids wanted instant gratification and slick UI games. she explored scratch but got pulled in different directions in her teaching load. however, several of her python students over the years have gone on to do interesting things at university.
my wife used to teach python to gifted middle schoolers as an intro programming course. she brought this up at a regional educator's event when the speaker asked if anyone was doing intro to programming in a language other than VB (or something else, maybe Java). my wife raised her hand sheepishly and said "I used python". everyone was suddenly interested.
the kids did great with python, but she eventually gave up on it because the kids wanted instant gratification and slick UI games. she explored scratch but got pulled in different directions in her teaching load. however, several of her python students over the years have gone on to do interesting things at university.
I have to admit; I read this title and rolled my eyes. I came back to it an hour later just out of curiosity and what a pleasant surprise!
"The PyCon Code of Conduct was tested twice that I know of, and it worked well."
No.
Imagine if PyCon had a reasonable code of conduct instead of this "Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks...In particular, exhibitors should not use sexualized images, activities, or other material. Booth staff (including volunteers) should not use sexualized clothing/uniforms/costumes, or otherwise create a sexualized environment."
Which I suspect was designed because a bunch of sex-negative feminists like those at the Ada Initiative just don't like booth babes. They have an obsession with marginal things that they believe might lead to sexism.
When I was more involved with Drupal, I wrote a letter against adding this kind of language to DrupalCon's code of conduct, because I felt it should focus on dealing with actual harassment instead of things some people don't like. I think because I am a woman, people listened to me. Working in tech can be dehumanizing enough as it is without having codes against an entire aspect of humanity- sex, because it might make some people uncomfortable. It's also vague enough that it could turn into a witch hunt pretty quickly.
I started out in Python but it's been like six years since I used it seriously, but if I were still involved I would try to get that removed from the Code of Conduct.
No.
Imagine if PyCon had a reasonable code of conduct instead of this "Sexual language and imagery is not appropriate for any conference venue, including talks...In particular, exhibitors should not use sexualized images, activities, or other material. Booth staff (including volunteers) should not use sexualized clothing/uniforms/costumes, or otherwise create a sexualized environment."
Which I suspect was designed because a bunch of sex-negative feminists like those at the Ada Initiative just don't like booth babes. They have an obsession with marginal things that they believe might lead to sexism.
When I was more involved with Drupal, I wrote a letter against adding this kind of language to DrupalCon's code of conduct, because I felt it should focus on dealing with actual harassment instead of things some people don't like. I think because I am a woman, people listened to me. Working in tech can be dehumanizing enough as it is without having codes against an entire aspect of humanity- sex, because it might make some people uncomfortable. It's also vague enough that it could turn into a witch hunt pretty quickly.
I started out in Python but it's been like six years since I used it seriously, but if I were still involved I would try to get that removed from the Code of Conduct.
I think you're conflating purposeful use of sex as a selling point with being sex positive.
These are vastly not the same thing.
One of them gets in the way of the message, gets in the way of discussion, and furthermore DOES make some people highly uncomfortable. Sure, some of those people may be sex negative. But many, many more are probably just rather annoyed at being treated like they're some buffoon who is going to flock to any booth with some tits on it.
Furthermore, not everyone wants to live quite so loudly. When you're standing at a booth with booth babes at it, you can't help but feel the eyes on you of other, nearby attendees. What if they're genuinely interested in what the product at the booth is- but suddenly they're put into the uncomfortable position of feeling like people might mistake what they're doing for something less seemly?
Perhaps it's a bit much to keep those kinds of jokes out of the talks, for the sake of culture. Then again? If it gets in more programmers, to not have that kind of content there, then they should stand by it.
(And one thing I might add: It's possible to be sex positive without wanting to be so public about it, and still being annoyed with its use, sometimes.)
These are vastly not the same thing.
One of them gets in the way of the message, gets in the way of discussion, and furthermore DOES make some people highly uncomfortable. Sure, some of those people may be sex negative. But many, many more are probably just rather annoyed at being treated like they're some buffoon who is going to flock to any booth with some tits on it.
Furthermore, not everyone wants to live quite so loudly. When you're standing at a booth with booth babes at it, you can't help but feel the eyes on you of other, nearby attendees. What if they're genuinely interested in what the product at the booth is- but suddenly they're put into the uncomfortable position of feeling like people might mistake what they're doing for something less seemly?
Perhaps it's a bit much to keep those kinds of jokes out of the talks, for the sake of culture. Then again? If it gets in more programmers, to not have that kind of content there, then they should stand by it.
(And one thing I might add: It's possible to be sex positive without wanting to be so public about it, and still being annoyed with its use, sometimes.)
As the Amanda Blum piece pointed out, jokes like that are common among women as well.
I would encourage people who are offended by booth babes to contact that company that hired them, rather than lobby for highly subjective code of conduct regulations.
I would encourage people who are offended by booth babes to contact that company that hired them, rather than lobby for highly subjective code of conduct regulations.
I find it difficult to accept that Adria Richards would have acted differently depending on the PyCon code of conduct. She had her own agenda, and it had nothing to do with sexism, decency, or respecting PyCon's rules.
I agree with what you're getting at: sex is part of life, and being so broad about it depraves the language.
I think you meant to say "deprived."
But yeah, to the extent that various written and unwritten codes of conduct would try to have us pretend to be perpetually "nice" and asexual to each other in nearly all public contexts, this broadness is is utterly depraved.
But yeah, to the extent that various written and unwritten codes of conduct would try to have us pretend to be perpetually "nice" and asexual to each other in nearly all public contexts, this broadness is is utterly depraved.
A professional tech conference shouldn't have a code of conduct banning sex talk which, by the way, is completely irrelevant to technology? Just because you, as a woman, don't have a problem with it then no other woman is allowed to have a problem with it? Nice. Hey ladies, mamoswined ain't faded. Sexism is OVER.
Irrelevant to technology? I don't think so. Let's ban everything some people think is irrelevant to technology that might offend someone.
Surely there are porn sites written in Python.
I was surprised at how damaging the "incident" was to my perception of pycon overall. The only thing I really heard about the event was all this BS, so I'm glad that this post really informed of the true value and importance of events like these.