I'm choosing euthanasia etd 1pm. I have no last words.(twitter.com)
twitter.com
I'm choosing euthanasia etd 1pm. I have no last words.
https://twitter.com/hintjens/status/783254242052206592
305 comments
I'm just discovering him, and reading through his blog.
His writing is just what I needed right now, at this time in my life. Particularly about how to be happy.
I think when you've lived such a prolific life, you don't need any last words. His life's work speaks for itself.
His writing is just what I needed right now, at this time in my life. Particularly about how to be happy.
I think when you've lived such a prolific life, you don't need any last words. His life's work speaks for itself.
> His writing is just what I needed right now, at this time in my life. Particularly about how to be happy.
This is the particular blog post in which he talks about 'how to be happy'
http://hintjens.com/blog:99
This is the particular blog post in which he talks about 'how to be happy'
http://hintjens.com/blog:99
> 8. Revalue your time
> Stop wasting your time on commuting, boring jobs, meetings, TV. Do only things that you feel are worthwhile, with people you like. If this means a cut in income, so be it. Be the person you really want to be. Don't take it all too seriously, we all die.
Thank you.
> Stop wasting your time on commuting, boring jobs, meetings, TV. Do only things that you feel are worthwhile, with people you like. If this means a cut in income, so be it. Be the person you really want to be. Don't take it all too seriously, we all die.
Thank you.
Just spent 9 hours in a conference arguing about how we are going to implement 12 months worth of features which are slated release in 3 months.
Quote hits very close to home.
Quote hits very close to home.
This is your fallback then:
> 10. Want nothing, accept everything
> Above all, explore the world without desire or demand, and be tolerant of whatever happens. Most people are nice, and even the others teach us. When you want nothing, you cannot be disappointed. When you accept everything, you will see beauty in every moment.
> 10. Want nothing, accept everything
> Above all, explore the world without desire or demand, and be tolerant of whatever happens. Most people are nice, and even the others teach us. When you want nothing, you cannot be disappointed. When you accept everything, you will see beauty in every moment.
I only just discovered him too. It turns out we knew some of the same people in the UK. I'm very sad I hadn't heard of him or his work earlier.
>His life's work speaks for itself.
Very much this! A loss to all - but a life well lived.
>His life's work speaks for itself.
Very much this! A loss to all - but a life well lived.
I first became aware of Pieter from the 0MQ documentation. I stumbled across community and process section of the 0MQ guide and I was hooked. I've been tremendously moved by the dignity and humanity with which he's faced terminal disease.
Likewise. The ZeroMQ book such a pleasure to read, has to be one of the best written tech books I've ever read. I learned so much about distributed systems from that book, even though I've got a PhD in the subject.
0MQ is fantastic. It's how I first found out about him, too. That library is an absolute pleasure to use.
Thanks Jan, he left it in good hands. He will be missed... Peace!
"God is Us, God is the Community."
There is no God. But there is the life FAQ. https://hintjens.gitbooks.io/confessions-of-a-necromancer/co...
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I have a degenerative spinal condition, 38 years old, no idea if/when the degeneration will reach the point where I need to use a ventilator or when my faculties will dip below a certain point on the [CGS][1].
But when these things start looking more imminent, I hope I have the courage to do what he has just done, I really do.
Incredibly brave decision.
[1]:http://www.glasgowcomascale.org/
Edited to Add: Added link to the Glasgow Coma Scale, shouldn't have assumed knowledge of it.
But when these things start looking more imminent, I hope I have the courage to do what he has just done, I really do.
Incredibly brave decision.
[1]:http://www.glasgowcomascale.org/
Edited to Add: Added link to the Glasgow Coma Scale, shouldn't have assumed knowledge of it.
I don't think GCS is a terribly useful metric for evaluating your own quality of life... You may place more or less value on certain functions, so a '13' might be totally fine, or not worth carrying on, depending on which points were 'lost'.
I assumed I'd feel that way too but now I'm not so sure after watching "TransFatty Lives". It's on Netflix if anyone is curious.
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This keeps me up at night. I hope the collective advancement in science makes it possible to defeat cancer some day. I believe/hope that my contribution as a insignificant CS-student helps somebody develop tools that help somebody researching etc.
I am really convinced that every advancement is connected somehow and the collective improvement in efficiency and livings standards makes it possible to commit more resources and train even more students to work on hard problems.
Even the work on something unrelated like React might somehow help if you observe humanity as a whole.
Also f*ck cancer (i read the guidelines and i found no statue against insulting cancer, if there is a user named cancer its a misunderstanding and you should really consider changing your username)
I am really convinced that every advancement is connected somehow and the collective improvement in efficiency and livings standards makes it possible to commit more resources and train even more students to work on hard problems.
Even the work on something unrelated like React might somehow help if you observe humanity as a whole.
Also f*ck cancer (i read the guidelines and i found no statue against insulting cancer, if there is a user named cancer its a misunderstanding and you should really consider changing your username)
There is an immense amount of software work to be done in biotech. Molecular biology research is in need of better automation, analysis, visualization techniques, and on and on. We need folks at all levels. I entered biotech as a web developer and have been able to pick more challenging problems to approach on a monthly basis. We know next to nothing about the human body. Im optimistic that tech will help out us on a stable path towards more robust research practices.
I'd echo sister posts re: how to get involved. My wife is currently in biotech doing mixed research/slightly CS-ey work and it constantly boggles my mind how antique many of their methods are, but they barely have money to keep running let alone pay for the expertise and/or infrastructure to leverage modern computing. Companies that have more freedom tend to be more restrictive I've found, and without a PHD it can be hard to get a foot in the door. Been doing data engineer/distributed systems/full stack engineer for almost a decade now and the recurring feeling of "I should be doing more to contribute to humanity" is often followed by contemplation of pursuing bio, but frankly I've been in such a different part of industry I don't even know where to start without heavily hamstringing my current career (e.g. going back for a PHD, potentially in another field)
Yes there's tons of low hanging fruit, you just have to get your foot in the door somewhere to get eyes on them. A lot of biology is fairly rudimentary processes. It's like baking a cake. Much of medicinal chemistry is just exploring a space of molecules and screening them to find one that does X. And of course software is very good at modeling simple processes.
As I mentioned in another comment, I actively decided to seek out a company in the space to join. I didn't know anyone really in bio before that. Another option is to get involved with an academic lab that is trying to bring software into their work (and there are many). Below are some interesting folks /projects merging bio and code (disclosure: I work for Transcriptic):
Using nothing but code to engineer proteins. blog.booleanbiotech.com/genetic_engineering_pipeline_python.html
Autoprotocol -- JSON specification for defining biological protocols autoprotocol.org
Using visual programming to describe bio protocols http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/10/14/081075
Engineering bacteria with code and automation. www.zymergen.com
As I mentioned in another comment, I actively decided to seek out a company in the space to join. I didn't know anyone really in bio before that. Another option is to get involved with an academic lab that is trying to bring software into their work (and there are many). Below are some interesting folks /projects merging bio and code (disclosure: I work for Transcriptic):
Using nothing but code to engineer proteins. blog.booleanbiotech.com/genetic_engineering_pipeline_python.html
Autoprotocol -- JSON specification for defining biological protocols autoprotocol.org
Using visual programming to describe bio protocols http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/10/14/081075
Engineering bacteria with code and automation. www.zymergen.com
How did you enter it? I'd love to feel I was helping something meaningful with work.
I joined my current company, Transcriptic, which is a biotech startup heavy on software. We are a "lab in the cloud". I just made the decision that I wanted to be in biotech so I looked for the most interesting startup I could find. Zero bio background, all software (web, mostly front end, lots of data viz). I now get to work across the stack, including robotics, and more importantly there is a whole green field of interesting problems to solve.
Open Source Projects/Platforms:
ADAM (Big Data Genomics, code-base I think worked currently by UC Berkeley AMPLab and Microsoft Research group focused on cancer research) https://github.com/bigdatagenomics/adam/labels/pick%20me%20u...
BioConductor (R package that is very popular for crunching different genomic analysis, RNA-Seq)https://www.bioconductor.org/developers/
Galaxy (Platform for reproducible genomics workflows in the cloud)https://wiki.galaxyproject.org/Support
Public Available Data Sets:
Cancer Genome Atlas (contains expression data for different kinds of cancer) http://cancergenome.nih.gov/
NCBI Short Reads Archive (contains the genome assembly of a lot of published papers): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sra
European Nucleotide Archive: http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena, e.g.,
For a recent major paper, "The Simons Genome Diversity Project: 300 genomes from 142 diverse populations"; you can grep for "accession code"(http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/natu...), follow the link and download the whole raw assemblies of all samples here: http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB9586
MOOC:
https://www.edx.org/xseries/genomics-data-analysis
https://www.coursera.org/specializations/bioinformatics
StackOverflow:
https://www.biostars.org/
http://seqanswers.com/
Jobs:
NYGC, JCVI, CRB, Sanger, BGI, Broad, NIH, NCBI, Janelia Farm; any research group in universities; any informatics job at pharmaceutical or pharma startups.
ADAM (Big Data Genomics, code-base I think worked currently by UC Berkeley AMPLab and Microsoft Research group focused on cancer research) https://github.com/bigdatagenomics/adam/labels/pick%20me%20u...
BioConductor (R package that is very popular for crunching different genomic analysis, RNA-Seq)https://www.bioconductor.org/developers/
Galaxy (Platform for reproducible genomics workflows in the cloud)https://wiki.galaxyproject.org/Support
Public Available Data Sets:
Cancer Genome Atlas (contains expression data for different kinds of cancer) http://cancergenome.nih.gov/
NCBI Short Reads Archive (contains the genome assembly of a lot of published papers): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sra
European Nucleotide Archive: http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena, e.g.,
For a recent major paper, "The Simons Genome Diversity Project: 300 genomes from 142 diverse populations"; you can grep for "accession code"(http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/natu...), follow the link and download the whole raw assemblies of all samples here: http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB9586
MOOC:
https://www.edx.org/xseries/genomics-data-analysis
https://www.coursera.org/specializations/bioinformatics
StackOverflow:
https://www.biostars.org/
http://seqanswers.com/
Jobs:
NYGC, JCVI, CRB, Sanger, BGI, Broad, NIH, NCBI, Janelia Farm; any research group in universities; any informatics job at pharmaceutical or pharma startups.
My background is distributed computing/grid computing. How can I contribute?
Genomics (as a sister comment mentioned)
Medicinal chemistry and high throughput screening is (becoming) a data science.
Workcells (search for "automated biology workcell"
Medicinal chemistry and high throughput screening is (becoming) a data science.
Workcells (search for "automated biology workcell"
At the UC Berkeley AMPLab we're working on scaling genomics [0], all open source under Apache 2 license. Or more generally, any of the Open Bioinformatics Foundation (OBF)[1] projects could use a hand, open source licenses vary.
[0] - https://github.com/bigdatagenomics/adam
[1] - https://www.open-bio.org/wiki/Main_Page
[0] - https://github.com/bigdatagenomics/adam
[1] - https://www.open-bio.org/wiki/Main_Page
Oh very cool.
We all die at some point. While I too abhor cancer I find hard to fear it more than any other thing that can kill me - a stroke, a car accident, etc. The universe is out to get us - we've evolved into tough bastard but we've not defeated mortality.
> hard to fear it more than any other thing that can kill me - a stroke, a car accident, etc.
Hm. I wonder your age. Young folk seem to think death impossibly foreign, and fear it / ignore it all equally. Older folk, that have had more first-hand experience with the decline of the flesh in themselves and those they grew up with, have more an appreciation for the difference between an abrupt death in a car accident, and a slow dissolution like cancer. Quite a lot of people fear dying more than they do death.
Hm. I wonder your age. Young folk seem to think death impossibly foreign, and fear it / ignore it all equally. Older folk, that have had more first-hand experience with the decline of the flesh in themselves and those they grew up with, have more an appreciation for the difference between an abrupt death in a car accident, and a slow dissolution like cancer. Quite a lot of people fear dying more than they do death.
The only way to win is not to play. I'm past 50. I'm not overly fussed about dying, it's not like it's avoidable. I'm not overly fussed about how either as I'll get what I'm given. Of course I'd prefer a pain-free exit rather than a 2 year painful decline to incoherent as my father had. Unless you go in your sleep I suspect all routes have pain as the final memory. I have no fear of any of it.
The only thing actually on my radar is being aware I have limited time, and am past half-way.
For those who die slowly, or lose faculties, the process seems unfair. For those who have a sudden exit the event seems unfair and can leave much unresolved and unsaid.
Euthanasia, to me, seems to be the least worst option if I should ever find myself facing a drawn out exit. I get a bit frustrated those professing relgion like to play the "you must not" card. It's not their business unless I share their belief, which I don't.
So I'll get the exit the universe decides. One day I'll be part of a star.
The only thing actually on my radar is being aware I have limited time, and am past half-way.
For those who die slowly, or lose faculties, the process seems unfair. For those who have a sudden exit the event seems unfair and can leave much unresolved and unsaid.
Euthanasia, to me, seems to be the least worst option if I should ever find myself facing a drawn out exit. I get a bit frustrated those professing relgion like to play the "you must not" card. It's not their business unless I share their belief, which I don't.
So I'll get the exit the universe decides. One day I'll be part of a star.
I'm a geek, and a paramedic.
I entirely agree - prolonged suffering is not life, it's misery. That decision should belong to people going through this, and not anyone else (they can discuss with those they feel appropriate).
One of the most memorable transports I ever did was for a woman with terminal metastatic cancer, taking her home where her husband had set up a bed in the living room so she could watch the sunrise.
To understand the amount of pain she was in - the movement of the ambulance driving her home about 20 miles exacerbated her pain such that her morphine dose which was already at 450mg/day was pushed to 600mg/day.
For comparison, if you're a 200lb person with a broken bone, you will likely get 15mg.
I have seen the prolonged suffering patients, and their families. Whatever happens, it's not easy.
I entirely agree - prolonged suffering is not life, it's misery. That decision should belong to people going through this, and not anyone else (they can discuss with those they feel appropriate).
One of the most memorable transports I ever did was for a woman with terminal metastatic cancer, taking her home where her husband had set up a bed in the living room so she could watch the sunrise.
To understand the amount of pain she was in - the movement of the ambulance driving her home about 20 miles exacerbated her pain such that her morphine dose which was already at 450mg/day was pushed to 600mg/day.
For comparison, if you're a 200lb person with a broken bone, you will likely get 15mg.
I have seen the prolonged suffering patients, and their families. Whatever happens, it's not easy.
It's pretty obvious to me most people debating how unethical euthanasia is have no exposure to needlessly prolonged suffering or just favor dogmatic cruelty over humane treatment of people. The kind of folks who think mother Theresa was a saint with her horror houses of suffering.
It amazes me how many people will favor putting a suffering animal out of its misery, then fight tooth and nail against offering that same mercy to their fellow human beings.
In many cases, it's social virtue signalling, with no real sapience behind the actions.
See how virtuous I am empathizing with lower-order animals' suffering.
See how virtuous I am championing the sanctity of human life.
A lot of the latter can be mitigated: make those who want human life preserved "at all costs" pay cash-over-the-barrel into that "at all costs" effort, on an individual basis. Voluntary, elective euthanasia becomes an option when no one steps up to pay for the extraordinary efforts. They either withdraw their opinion immediately when they can no longer externalize their social virtue signalling choice's costs onto everyone else, or they go broke very soon and those who are suffering can make a free choice.
Or we can pursue the sane choice and legislate elective assisted euthanasia with safeguards like Switzerland's or other rationally-chosen parameters. It is long past time to recognize that our medical technology has far outstripped our ability to reliably deliver an acceptably high quality of life.
See how virtuous I am empathizing with lower-order animals' suffering.
See how virtuous I am championing the sanctity of human life.
A lot of the latter can be mitigated: make those who want human life preserved "at all costs" pay cash-over-the-barrel into that "at all costs" effort, on an individual basis. Voluntary, elective euthanasia becomes an option when no one steps up to pay for the extraordinary efforts. They either withdraw their opinion immediately when they can no longer externalize their social virtue signalling choice's costs onto everyone else, or they go broke very soon and those who are suffering can make a free choice.
Or we can pursue the sane choice and legislate elective assisted euthanasia with safeguards like Switzerland's or other rationally-chosen parameters. It is long past time to recognize that our medical technology has far outstripped our ability to reliably deliver an acceptably high quality of life.
"Voluntary, elective euthanasia becomes an option when no one steps up to pay for the extraordinary efforts."
Generally euthanasia is considered an ethical option when medicine can't help anymore, and any prolonging of life would either be useless (patient is braindead) or unable to mitigate the pain of the patient.
Personally I think bringing economics in wil obfuscate the moral discussion.
Generally euthanasia is considered an ethical option when medicine can't help anymore, and any prolonging of life would either be useless (patient is braindead) or unable to mitigate the pain of the patient.
Personally I think bringing economics in wil obfuscate the moral discussion.
In the US, officially-sanctioned euthanasia that I was personally acquainted with in a hospice took the form of death by dehydration and starvation. Both are barbaric, considered war crimes in a different context. In the case I was personally acquainted with, asphyxiation by rapid flooding of CO2 into the patient's airspace was prohibited.
It's because (correctly, in my view) we value human life more than animal life. Killing an animal in a humane way is not morally wrong; killing a human usually is.
Some of the biggest critics of euthanasia are the disabled.
There's an unsettling undercurrent of thought in the disabled community: "What if society decides I'm more trouble than I'm worth?" Some of their opposition to legalized euthanasia probably comes from that, and some from religious motivation.
Obviously neither justification is valid as a basis for making laws that apply to us all, but on the other hand, how do you tell them their concerns aren't worth listening to? Some cultures have practiced selective involuntary euthanasia in the recent past, so you can't say "It'll never happen."
Obviously neither justification is valid as a basis for making laws that apply to us all, but on the other hand, how do you tell them their concerns aren't worth listening to? Some cultures have practiced selective involuntary euthanasia in the recent past, so you can't say "It'll never happen."
The fact that some doctors will readily offer it is also a concern. Without strict oversight to ensure patients aren't unduly affected by medical professionals in their choice is something that bothers me greatly. I'm all for euthanasia but it must be done in a way where the patient is of sound mind and knows there's alternatives to it like assisted living if the condition itself isn't fatal.
> It's not their business unless I share their belief, which I don't.
And even if you do share it, it's not.
And even if you do share it, it's not.
> Euthanasia, to me, seems to be the least worst option if I should ever find myself facing a drawn out exit.
Another option that most people are not aware of (that I personally consider the best way to die), is to simply fast (i.e., no food but with water) for the 30 or so days.
Thought this might not be an option 100% of the time - given the circumstances of the ailment.
This process allows you to meditate on the self, and to let go in a steady way, instead of ending in an abrupt halt.
It has been known to produce a sense of immense relief and oneness with everything.
Another option that most people are not aware of (that I personally consider the best way to die), is to simply fast (i.e., no food but with water) for the 30 or so days.
Thought this might not be an option 100% of the time - given the circumstances of the ailment.
This process allows you to meditate on the self, and to let go in a steady way, instead of ending in an abrupt halt.
It has been known to produce a sense of immense relief and oneness with everything.
The only way to win is not to play
It may be hokey but I believe the only way to win is to play excessively ;-)
It may be hokey but I believe the only way to win is to play excessively ;-)
Yeah, that works too. Not playing is better for global thermonuclear war.
Sorry, I didn't mean to speak of death in dismissive form.
I've seen too many relatives and those close to me perish in various of ways before old age not to care about it. To me all forms of it ... just feel equally bad in the end from the point of fearing some personal fate or another. My view is not of someone oblivious to life's hardship. Life hits you, you take the punches, and stand as long as you can.
"Cancer" in general does not mean a slow death. Some forms can kill within weeks of a diagnosis due to quickly arising medical complications.
My intent was certainly not to be dismissive of the fate of Pieter and other cancer victims.
I've seen too many relatives and those close to me perish in various of ways before old age not to care about it. To me all forms of it ... just feel equally bad in the end from the point of fearing some personal fate or another. My view is not of someone oblivious to life's hardship. Life hits you, you take the punches, and stand as long as you can.
"Cancer" in general does not mean a slow death. Some forms can kill within weeks of a diagnosis due to quickly arising medical complications.
My intent was certainly not to be dismissive of the fate of Pieter and other cancer victims.
Radiation and chemo therapies are one of the most horrific things one can endure.
Depending on the type of cancer, you can go in a few weeks, months, or fight the battle for years.
Even if you endure and persist, which gets progressively easier for a lot of cancers thanks to more advanced therapies, you have to fear recurrence.
I'm not at all opposed to ending one s own life if done without severe psychological issues and done thoughtfully after plenty consideration.
Of course, if you regulate assisted suicide, as some countries in Europe have done, it leads down a very slippery slope. Who makes the decision on whether you are allowed to end your own life?
Most current religions frown upon suicide as a sin. Life is god given and not yours to decide upon (Islam, Christianity). Or suicide is viewed as an unjustified interference in the natural order (Hinduism). And therefore most of our societies reject it.
Admittedly, most suicides that are not connected to terminal illness manifest due to psychological / neurological illness and despair that might be cured or managed with proper therapy and medication, making a return to a happy life possible.
It's a fascinating and very multi-facetted issue to think about.
Depending on the type of cancer, you can go in a few weeks, months, or fight the battle for years.
Even if you endure and persist, which gets progressively easier for a lot of cancers thanks to more advanced therapies, you have to fear recurrence.
I'm not at all opposed to ending one s own life if done without severe psychological issues and done thoughtfully after plenty consideration.
Of course, if you regulate assisted suicide, as some countries in Europe have done, it leads down a very slippery slope. Who makes the decision on whether you are allowed to end your own life?
Most current religions frown upon suicide as a sin. Life is god given and not yours to decide upon (Islam, Christianity). Or suicide is viewed as an unjustified interference in the natural order (Hinduism). And therefore most of our societies reject it.
Admittedly, most suicides that are not connected to terminal illness manifest due to psychological / neurological illness and despair that might be cured or managed with proper therapy and medication, making a return to a happy life possible.
It's a fascinating and very multi-facetted issue to think about.
It's your own life to take and as long as your brain still works and you have some freedom of movement, nobody can actually stop you from doing it if you're so determined.
And granted, when talking about mental illnesses that are considered treatable, like depression, you can't expect assistance for suicide. But when talking terminal illnesses, like cancer or dementia, then not legalizing assisted deaths is not only dangerous to others, but also an act of extreme selfishness.
We're basically condemning people to suffer extreme physical pain and/or insanity until their last breath. And as a non-practicing Christian, I suspect the reason has less to do with God and more to do with not wanting to take on some fucking responsibility for others.
And granted, when talking about mental illnesses that are considered treatable, like depression, you can't expect assistance for suicide. But when talking terminal illnesses, like cancer or dementia, then not legalizing assisted deaths is not only dangerous to others, but also an act of extreme selfishness.
We're basically condemning people to suffer extreme physical pain and/or insanity until their last breath. And as a non-practicing Christian, I suspect the reason has less to do with God and more to do with not wanting to take on some fucking responsibility for others.
"not wanting to take on some fucking responsibility for others."
They'll have to explain their sins themselves, but by observation I think its giving up that they oppose.
Going up to OPs question of who gets to decide, decades ago when my father died of some weird fast moving liver cancer no one religious had any issue with the numerous treatment options all somewhat fatal or with the concept of being able to select a treatment plan. So the oncologist says chemo option A means X amount of pain and 90% chance you'll be dead in Y months, and option B, C, D, all different tradeoffs, or we could try whatever else and you'll get Y months with X amount of pain, or do nothing and you'll be gone in about Y weeks or etc etc. Basically the patient and team of doctors pick a death date which results in an associated level of pain and medical treatment (medical profit). The Christians don't seem to mind "pick a death date" they just seem very unhappy with the idea of the treatment plan being "give up completely" "game over".
There seems this weird assumption that people can't handle picking a death date or it would warp culture too much, but any cancer patient with more than one medically approved treatment option is pretty much picking their date as it is today. Especially if its terminal cancer. Adding a third, fourth, fifth treatment option of "once we agree your quality of life is below level X then you're done" isn't going to be a huge addition or huge problem.
My wife has power of attorney or whatever its called over her Alzheimer's damaged great uncle, she has full control over all of his medical treatment plan. The only real moral or ethical argument I can think of is if it were made legal maybe only only legal agreements drafted after the law change should be valid. Although then again, the whole point of her being in charge is he trusted his niece the most so if he were competent he would likely continue to trust her the most anyway.
They'll have to explain their sins themselves, but by observation I think its giving up that they oppose.
Going up to OPs question of who gets to decide, decades ago when my father died of some weird fast moving liver cancer no one religious had any issue with the numerous treatment options all somewhat fatal or with the concept of being able to select a treatment plan. So the oncologist says chemo option A means X amount of pain and 90% chance you'll be dead in Y months, and option B, C, D, all different tradeoffs, or we could try whatever else and you'll get Y months with X amount of pain, or do nothing and you'll be gone in about Y weeks or etc etc. Basically the patient and team of doctors pick a death date which results in an associated level of pain and medical treatment (medical profit). The Christians don't seem to mind "pick a death date" they just seem very unhappy with the idea of the treatment plan being "give up completely" "game over".
There seems this weird assumption that people can't handle picking a death date or it would warp culture too much, but any cancer patient with more than one medically approved treatment option is pretty much picking their date as it is today. Especially if its terminal cancer. Adding a third, fourth, fifth treatment option of "once we agree your quality of life is below level X then you're done" isn't going to be a huge addition or huge problem.
My wife has power of attorney or whatever its called over her Alzheimer's damaged great uncle, she has full control over all of his medical treatment plan. The only real moral or ethical argument I can think of is if it were made legal maybe only only legal agreements drafted after the law change should be valid. Although then again, the whole point of her being in charge is he trusted his niece the most so if he were competent he would likely continue to trust her the most anyway.
The way I see it is pretty straightforward: my life, my decision. That suicide and euthanasia are illegal is illogical to me; it just seems like a way for life insurance companies to avoid paying.
That only works as long as you're legally competent and there are plenty of scenarios where you'd be suffering terribly but would not longer be in control of your life.
[deleted]
>If done without severe psychological issues and done thoughtfully after plenty consideration.
I'm even mixed with psychological issues on this. We can help a lot of depression; some folks with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and a slew of others. But some, help is just barely help. If they've been trying treatment for 15-20 years as an adult, and have found life to be agonizing for the most part, and they've talked it over with a psychiatrist (who could have proceedures for due consideration)... yeah, I can't say I oppose it.
This does lead back to: Who is allowed to decide whether you live or die? The slippery slope you were speaking of : To me, those are simply beginnings. It is a step above complete illegality.
I'm even mixed with psychological issues on this. We can help a lot of depression; some folks with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and a slew of others. But some, help is just barely help. If they've been trying treatment for 15-20 years as an adult, and have found life to be agonizing for the most part, and they've talked it over with a psychiatrist (who could have proceedures for due consideration)... yeah, I can't say I oppose it.
This does lead back to: Who is allowed to decide whether you live or die? The slippery slope you were speaking of : To me, those are simply beginnings. It is a step above complete illegality.
If you're fine with a significant margin of error with people's lives, it's a step above. If you believe psychiatry is a mature field (it's not) it might even make sense.
I didn't think you were being dismissive of it in any sort of callous or rude way. My comment was made in earnest, and honestly, without criticism. I don't think there's anything wrong with people at different stages in their lives having different outlooks on life and mortality; those outlooks are shaped by time and experience.
A young person generally hasn't seen (many or any of) their close friends grow infirm and die, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that they don't see life through that lens yet.
A young person generally hasn't seen (many or any of) their close friends grow infirm and die, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that they don't see life through that lens yet.
>>Quite a lot of people fear dying more than they do death.
Hell yes. Kids are grown. Fat life insurance policy. I can accept having a fatal heart attack under the right circumstances :) The slow, painful fade is the thing that scares me. It's better to "burn out, than fade away."
Hell yes. Kids are grown. Fat life insurance policy. I can accept having a fatal heart attack under the right circumstances :) The slow, painful fade is the thing that scares me. It's better to "burn out, than fade away."
Writing this as a reply to all the comments regarding death;
I think "death" is just another condition like disease or disability that will eventually be defeated through technology. Someday we will have medical immortality and maybe even mind-backups, to "restore" a person (or a very close approximation of them) in the case of accident/violence.
We should be looking at death as something surpassable and not necessarily grim or morbid.
I think "death" is just another condition like disease or disability that will eventually be defeated through technology. Someday we will have medical immortality and maybe even mind-backups, to "restore" a person (or a very close approximation of them) in the case of accident/violence.
We should be looking at death as something surpassable and not necessarily grim or morbid.
> I think "death" is just another condition like disease or disability that will eventually be defeated through technology. Someday we will have medical immortality and maybe even mind-backups, to "restore" a person (or a very close approximation of them) in the case of accident/violence.
Backing up your brain does not prevent you to die. Your organic form will die anyway and you will have to go through death, it's just that a copy of you will continue without you. That's not defeating death at all.
Backing up your brain does not prevent you to die. Your organic form will die anyway and you will have to go through death, it's just that a copy of you will continue without you. That's not defeating death at all.
It may still be comforting for people to get their loved ones back in some way.
Even without such "resurrection", medical immortality in the form of immunity to aging and disease and disability could be considered as "defeating" nonviolent death.
Even without such "resurrection", medical immortality in the form of immunity to aging and disease and disability could be considered as "defeating" nonviolent death.
"It may still be comforting for people to get their loved ones back in some way."
Memories. All you get is memories. To imagine something else is delusional. Losing a loved one hurts like hell but life goes on. Denial is one part of the processs but most of all the difficult part of the process is remolding oneself into a world where the loved one is no more.
The queen of the King of Sweden, Gustaf Adolf could not accept the passing of her husband and in her grief she stored his heart for years in a jar.
While science fiction flirts with various kinds of immortality it offers no assistance forming a philosophy for todays world.
Memories. All you get is memories. To imagine something else is delusional. Losing a loved one hurts like hell but life goes on. Denial is one part of the processs but most of all the difficult part of the process is remolding oneself into a world where the loved one is no more.
The queen of the King of Sweden, Gustaf Adolf could not accept the passing of her husband and in her grief she stored his heart for years in a jar.
While science fiction flirts with various kinds of immortality it offers no assistance forming a philosophy for todays world.
Plus it assumes that our brain software will keep functioning in perpetuity. Given that our bodies come with various forms of death clocks, it seems likely that our brain software would have a death countdown as well, preventing even a backup from working. Unless you don't run it, in which case it's more like freezing a person. It probably has it's uses, but it's very different from immortality.
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You make death out to be a problem, which is... unintuitive. What is to gain from "fixing" it?
I wouldn't kick a 500-year lifespan out of my genome, would you?
Yes. Living for 500 years sounds exhausting, pointless, terrible for the environment and my descendants, and a selfish use of resources.
Think of the scientific advancements we might have made had people like Einstein or Fermi or Tesla been able to live another fifty or hundred years, or were still alive.
If we ever manage to find a way off-planet, being able to live for half a millenium (or "forever", or until-I-decide) sounds AMAZING.
It does sound like quite the economic problem, though, and would certainly make earthbound resources more troublesome.
If we ever manage to find a way off-planet, being able to live for half a millenium (or "forever", or until-I-decide) sounds AMAZING.
It does sound like quite the economic problem, though, and would certainly make earthbound resources more troublesome.
It's one of those things that's great until you realize that as resource constrained people in a capitalist society we will basically poor our scientific advancement into the preservation of the wealthiest. Or birth control: cue the monkey house.
We're not remotely resource-constrained IMO. And the universe doesn't become a zero-sum game for a very very long time, if ever. We are, however, severely imagination constrained IMO and that's more than enough to suck all the fun out of existence at times.
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Exhausting and pointless are obviously subjective.
As for the environmental issues and being selfish, this doesn't have anything to do with how long you live, but rather with how you live. Obviously, a society with life expectation that is so long would have to reduce the birth rates substantially (or, rather, keep them the same in the births-per-lifetime department). But if you can do that, then there's no reason why it's any more straining on the environment, whether its 1 person living for 500 years, 5 people living for 100 years each, or 10 people living for 50 years each.
You could say it's "selfish" to live one life where there could be ten, but how can one be selfish with respect to non-existing persons? How is it different from someone being "selfish" and not having children, for example? And why wouldn't it apply to ourselves with our current lifespans? Why not, say, euthanize everyone at 30, and use the existing resources to sustain more short-lived people, if the number of people having lived is the metric?
As for the environmental issues and being selfish, this doesn't have anything to do with how long you live, but rather with how you live. Obviously, a society with life expectation that is so long would have to reduce the birth rates substantially (or, rather, keep them the same in the births-per-lifetime department). But if you can do that, then there's no reason why it's any more straining on the environment, whether its 1 person living for 500 years, 5 people living for 100 years each, or 10 people living for 50 years each.
You could say it's "selfish" to live one life where there could be ten, but how can one be selfish with respect to non-existing persons? How is it different from someone being "selfish" and not having children, for example? And why wouldn't it apply to ourselves with our current lifespans? Why not, say, euthanize everyone at 30, and use the existing resources to sustain more short-lived people, if the number of people having lived is the metric?
> You could say it's "selfish" to live one life where there could be ten, but how can one be selfish with respect to non-existing persons?
It's more selfishly using the resources younger people can use. If you're eighty, I'd rather feed the eight year old. Until we move beyond resource constraints (lol) this is going to be a major effect of the rich being able to afford long lives AND food and the poor affording neither.
It's more selfishly using the resources younger people can use. If you're eighty, I'd rather feed the eight year old. Until we move beyond resource constraints (lol) this is going to be a major effect of the rich being able to afford long lives AND food and the poor affording neither.
But what makes eighty special? Would you say the same thing about someone who was younger? "If you're forty, I'd rather feed the four year old"? If not, then why not?
The only objective metric I can think of is that today, 80 is usually not an age at which a person can do much. But if we have technology that lets you live much longer, and people at 80 would be physically like, say, 20-year-old today, that goes away.
And, of course, the number of young people "in the pipeline" can be regulated by controlling birth rates.
The only objective metric I can think of is that today, 80 is usually not an age at which a person can do much. But if we have technology that lets you live much longer, and people at 80 would be physically like, say, 20-year-old today, that goes away.
And, of course, the number of young people "in the pipeline" can be regulated by controlling birth rates.
It entirely depends on whether or not the person lives selfishly for those 500 years. If they continue gaining and using experience they could be exceedingly productive.
If they sit around doing nothing but eating and playing video games, that would be a waste.
If they sit around doing nothing but eating and playing video games, that would be a waste.
Productive at what? All of this assumes some grand human plan you can work at. Thus far the vast majority of "productive" humans are "productively" burning through resources with little value: our burn rate is ALREADY crazy with an upper cap on age.
Furthering the cause of the existence of the human species, of course. What other goals are worth pursuing?
Without echoing the other responses to your comment, I must add that I think "solving" death is just another technological milestone, just like interstellar travel, required for any intelligent species in this Universe that wishes to make its mark beyond its home planet.
One of the things that are necessary to attain the next level of civilization, or perish. Yes, achieving a post-scarcity industry/economy is also necessary, and goes hand-in-hand with sustainable immortality.
At a certain scale, those that don't have these technologies may be seen as primitive.
I suppose there'll some kinds of biologies where immortality won't be necessary, like a insect-like hive-mind species, where each member is more or less already a copy of each other, but in species that have concepts of individuality and value them, achieving immortality is inevitable.
One of the things that are necessary to attain the next level of civilization, or perish. Yes, achieving a post-scarcity industry/economy is also necessary, and goes hand-in-hand with sustainable immortality.
At a certain scale, those that don't have these technologies may be seen as primitive.
I suppose there'll some kinds of biologies where immortality won't be necessary, like a insect-like hive-mind species, where each member is more or less already a copy of each other, but in species that have concepts of individuality and value them, achieving immortality is inevitable.
Arent abrupt deaths more likely to happen to a young person? Shouldn't a young person then not fear cancer (less likely) any more than accidental death?
I wonder your age. Old folk tend to assume they have some sort of wisdom and that they can't possibly be wrong simply because of extra years spent on Earth.
I wonder your age. Old folk tend to assume they have some sort of wisdom and that they can't possibly be wrong simply because of extra years spent on Earth.
Haha, 45yo geezer here! And allow me to retort w/ another broad stroke:
Young people tend to assume they know a lot about things they have never experienced.
Rest assured, what misconceptions time does not fix for us, death certainly will.
edit: changed 'you' to 'us', none get out alive.
Young people tend to assume they know a lot about things they have never experienced.
Rest assured, what misconceptions time does not fix for us, death certainly will.
edit: changed 'you' to 'us', none get out alive.
Malignancy is the #4 leading cause of death in the US in 15-24s and 25-34s. #2, behind unintentional injury, if one excludes homocide/suicide (you may, or may not - I'll leave that to you). By 35-44 it's taken #2 in earnest, with homocide and suicide falling away behind heart disease, to take spots 4 and 5. That's as of 2010, at least.
I'm not "old folk," but I do work in medicine. I may have seen a bit more death and death-fear than you. Then again, maybe not; I don't know you.
I'm not "old folk," but I do work in medicine. I may have seen a bit more death and death-fear than you. Then again, maybe not; I don't know you.
*yet
I am 100% confident that within the next two hundred years (baring some massive war, dark age, etc.) We will be able to use gene therapy to reduce cancer risk to negligible levels. We will probably even master the ability to program cells to do what we want... At which point all diseases where the body breaks down will likely be gone. That's not to say, we won't have issues regarding illness - just our bodies won't break down as quickly if at all.
I am 100% confident that within the next two hundred years (baring some massive war, dark age, etc.) We will be able to use gene therapy to reduce cancer risk to negligible levels. We will probably even master the ability to program cells to do what we want... At which point all diseases where the body breaks down will likely be gone. That's not to say, we won't have issues regarding illness - just our bodies won't break down as quickly if at all.
I agree with you and I hope you are right.
And then overpopulation will become a problem even more than it is now.
No it won't. All first world countries have less than sustainable population growth as it is. We produce vastly more food than we need, and will be able to produce even more in the future with genetically engineered algae. We have vast areas of the Earth left to settle including deserts, antarctica and the Oceans. Not to mention space. We have millennia worth of nuclear fuel available on Earth, not to mention other forms of energy. Overpopulation is a joke.
The way I see it playing out, if working life extension technology is discovered, it will first be hoarded secretly for many years / possibly generations while the rich + powerful use it to stay in power. It won't be generally accessible until much later, likely after the world is in ruins, if at all. Some people believe that it had been discovered before but lost to the ages. Creepy to think about, but makes sense. If someone could live forever, I would think they'd become a huge target for assassination.
That's a stupid theory. All technologies become available to the general public after a short time. Initially cell phones were expensive, but now even the poor often have iphones. Most medicines including advanced cancer treatments are available to everyone. Especially in countries with socialized healthcare. I see no reason why this would be any different.
Making sure everyone has access to life-extension is how you make sure you aren't a target for assassination.
If you try to keep it for yourself you can bet the population-at-large will be gunning for you (literally).
If you try to keep it for yourself you can bet the population-at-large will be gunning for you (literally).
>We produce vastly more food than we need
Global warming could cause some nasty food shortages.
Global warming could cause some nasty food shortages.
In the next few decades maybe. But population growth is a very long term issue. Over the next few centuries we will almost certainly solve or adapt to whatever issues global warming creates in the next few decades. Slightly decreasing or increasing the population will not make much difference.
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Cancer seems more scary to me than a stroke or a fatal car accident because you can try to prevent those things. Health choices can decrease chances of a stroke, being an alert/careful driver can decrease chance of an accident. Cancer though...I mean yeah you can avoid longterm sun exposure or not smoke, but there are so many out-there types of cancers that just swoop in out of nowhere that you don't stand a chance of preventing.
Obviously you can't live your life in fear like that, but I think there's good reason to be more fearful or at least angry about cancer than something like a stroke/wreck.
Obviously you can't live your life in fear like that, but I think there's good reason to be more fearful or at least angry about cancer than something like a stroke/wreck.
When it comes to cars, nothing is stopping some yahoo not paying any attention from careening into you no matter how careful you are.
In many ways it's not preventing accidents that's important it's preventing people getting hurt.
Being a defensive driver can drastically change your odds of being killed by some random yahoo. Further, the kind of car you drive can make a significant difference and improvements in car design are largely responsible for a huge reduction in fatalities.
Remember, our dealing with V^2 and slow reaction time so a 50MPH car has half the energy of a 70MPH car.
Being a defensive driver can drastically change your odds of being killed by some random yahoo. Further, the kind of car you drive can make a significant difference and improvements in car design are largely responsible for a huge reduction in fatalities.
Remember, our dealing with V^2 and slow reaction time so a 50MPH car has half the energy of a 70MPH car.
Yeah, I mean, I agree, but I got rear-ended twice in the past year and it's changed my perspective a bit.
For what it's worth, we have also drastically reduced exposure to carcinogens for most people.
For what it's worth, we have also drastically reduced exposure to carcinogens for most people.
Of course not. The point is there are things one can actively do to decrease risk (though not eliminate it). With many types of cancer that isn't the case.
But how is that any different from getting enough sleep, foregoing tobacco and unhealthy foods, etc.?
Odds. As you get older your chance of getting cancer increases substantially.[1]
Getting older doesn't increase your changes of getting in a car accident.
1: https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/a...
Getting older doesn't increase your changes of getting in a car accident.
1: https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/a...
> Getting older doesn't increase your changes of getting in a car accident.
I beg to differ.
> In 2012, there were almost 36 million licensed drivers ages 65 and older in the United States.1 Driving helps older adults stay mobile and independent. But the risk of being injured or killed in a motor vehicle crash increases as you age. http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/older_adult_drivers/
I beg to differ.
> In 2012, there were almost 36 million licensed drivers ages 65 and older in the United States.1 Driving helps older adults stay mobile and independent. But the risk of being injured or killed in a motor vehicle crash increases as you age. http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/older_adult_drivers/
By choosing not to drive and being vigilant while crossing the street, you definitely reduce your cross-section (although drivers do plow into pedestrians every once in a while)
Cancer is scary bc of the lack of education about it in general across the global population (including the medical professionals). the Research and Technology and etc change slow but quickly, effective but ineffective...it is based on various perspectives. And the "cause" of cancer is simple and complicated and of the slight unknown...it is a long discussion. From a now 2 1/2 year post awake Brain Surgery w 90% malignant cancerous tumor removed, radiation and now bc of my re-direction of my tech biz and research/genetics, I have gene mutations discovered that generally put me on the scale to a longer lease, if you will, but this mutation has be picked up by the good ole' immune system and new research points to a intersection in the future with a increasing possibility of attacking the mutation and then my cancer specifics hit the "launch button" and go red hot to a nasty grade 4, quickly...but that is if I do nothing. I'm not the type :) but the point is, as all cancers are scary, some have become very treatable, we are still human and the relationship between each cancer usually has a genetic connection to others to at least one magnitude or more.
with terminal cancer, you get time to set your life in order, say goodbye to your friends and family, and try to make a difference (pertinent given the example set by p).
> and try to make a difference
The cynic in me assumes that with children and a spouse, you're most likely too busy filling out forms and applications that ensure that they will not be screwed over by insurance companies and medical providers.
The cynic in me assumes that with children and a spouse, you're most likely too busy filling out forms and applications that ensure that they will not be screwed over by insurance companies and medical providers.
> we've evolved into tough bastard but we've not defeated mortality.
Well. We evolved to be a collection of cells. Before, we were unicellular organisms, fighting against other organisms for resources and ultimately, survival.
Some cells just decide to revert back to the old ways. I'd say it's a form of evolution, one that's pruned by natural selection, when the host organism dies.
Well. We evolved to be a collection of cells. Before, we were unicellular organisms, fighting against other organisms for resources and ultimately, survival.
Some cells just decide to revert back to the old ways. I'd say it's a form of evolution, one that's pruned by natural selection, when the host organism dies.
>I believe/hope that my contribution as a insignificant CS-student helps somebody develop tools that help somebody researching etc.
I somehow ended up in a academic Genetics lab, writing software. We use a lot of languages here (Php, python, perl, java, R, javascript and even some C) and various web frameworks to let people use our tools to do science. I don't know if the creators of these tools imagined they'd be used for science, but they put the tools out there in the public and they were used.
You contribute, because its the right thing todo, that makes you significant. You never know how significant what you put out there will end up being, but it helps you grow too. The open source community inspires and you by contributing are part of that. Every little bit helps.
"Bioinformatics" is a general term of the use of computing in Biology. Its an interesting field.
I somehow ended up in a academic Genetics lab, writing software. We use a lot of languages here (Php, python, perl, java, R, javascript and even some C) and various web frameworks to let people use our tools to do science. I don't know if the creators of these tools imagined they'd be used for science, but they put the tools out there in the public and they were used.
You contribute, because its the right thing todo, that makes you significant. You never know how significant what you put out there will end up being, but it helps you grow too. The open source community inspires and you by contributing are part of that. Every little bit helps.
"Bioinformatics" is a general term of the use of computing in Biology. Its an interesting field.
We don't have a lot of confidence about curing cancer near term (next decade or two). What we are really working on is turning it into a chronic condition, beating back recurrences occasionally with different therapies (and we hope with fewer less bothersome side effects)
Yes. Fuck cancer.
Took my grandmother, and took my friend.
Took your grandfather.
Took your friend.
Fuck cancer.
Mother, aunt, grandmother, all died of cancer (brain, breast, metastasis of liver cancer). F*ck cancer indeed. Support marijuana reforms. Best hope we have.
I'm sorry, but what is the connection between those two?
Those two? I'm assuming cancer and marijuana? What we know of several of the cannabinoids is that they participate in apoptosis of the cancerous cells. You get several cell divisions each day in your body that go bad but the cell knows something is wrong and terminates itself with its mitochondria. Cancer happens when apoptosis fails to happen in those circumstances. It's one of the bright hopes of cancer medicine that understanding this process will bring about a general cure.
If I were going to die, I'd feel very sad but not because of me nor because of my wife or friends. They are adults and they must deal with this.
I'd feel that I let down my children and couldn't give them a happy and careless childhood without having to deal with the cruelty of reality.
So, may his kids have the strength to deal with it without losing their light-heartedness.
I'd feel that I let down my children and couldn't give them a happy and careless childhood without having to deal with the cruelty of reality.
So, may his kids have the strength to deal with it without losing their light-heartedness.
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Pieter: I don't know if you are reading Hacker News at this point or not. Most likely not. I respect your rights and understand the challenge you are faced with. We don't know each other but your work has touched me profoundly as a fellow technologist. All I have to say is I am crying at the moment. I'm crying because I feel very helpless. As a fellow human I am unable to do anything to help you. I am sorry.
>I'm crying because I feel very helpless. As a fellow human I am unable to do anything to help you. I am sorry.
Although this is a poor comparison for a million reasons, I just put my beloved dog down a week ago. Helpless is the word here. Its incredible how many game-enders we casually flirt with everyday, how powerful illness can be, how illness makes us make tough decisions, how poorly we handle end of life issues, and how badly grief hits us. We purposely avoid thinking about this stuff, consider it taboo, and engage in gallow's humor for a reason.
Death is difficult. It never gets easier.
Although this is a poor comparison for a million reasons, I just put my beloved dog down a week ago. Helpless is the word here. Its incredible how many game-enders we casually flirt with everyday, how powerful illness can be, how illness makes us make tough decisions, how poorly we handle end of life issues, and how badly grief hits us. We purposely avoid thinking about this stuff, consider it taboo, and engage in gallow's humor for a reason.
Death is difficult. It never gets easier.
Pets are no less an important member of your family than a spouse, children, parents, etc. We may obtain these companions knowing full well we expect to outlive them many times over, but that doesn't mean the eventual loss impacts us less than losing any other member of our family.
Never think your comparison isn't apt because it's "just a pet" :)
Never think your comparison isn't apt because it's "just a pet" :)
Actually yes, a pet is a much less important member of your family than a spouse, children or parent.
That depends... Some family members are not good people... Unfortunately.
Indeed, that is one opinion.
The affection and love you have for a member of another species is no less special than the love for one of your own species. I'm sorry for your loss. Death is indeed difficult.
I'm so sorry for your loss. I went through this 5 months ago, and it was incredibly difficult for me. I have lost many friends far too young, and the death of our pet was no less emotionally traumatic.
Time does help.
Time does help.
It's very kind of you to have such empathy for another soul. The ones that have left here likely need that empathy less than the rest of do and so death helps remind all of us to be more accepting of our fellow human in this moment. I appreciate your words here and would offer that I believe all HN posts will eventually make it through (and past) the heat death of the universe.
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Over 500,000 people die of cancer in the US, and over 8 million worldwide.
Maybe you can't do something about one particular person today but millions of more future deaths can be prevented.
Some of the people here will be dying "early" deaths in 10 or 20 years. You won't be saying: "well, you've gotta go someday when you have a couple of kids", for example.
Maybe you can't do something about one particular person today but millions of more future deaths can be prevented.
Some of the people here will be dying "early" deaths in 10 or 20 years. You won't be saying: "well, you've gotta go someday when you have a couple of kids", for example.
I like your post, but before you will inspire few folks to visit some cancer fighting "non-profit" venture, it is important to look at cancer further then just those companies that are fighting it (but of course would never want to end it for good - I mean after all they have a lifetime mission (and salaries to pay), right?)
You see, cancer was a tiny spot on radar just 50 years ago. Or 100 even more. So the question is - what happened? Have we somehow changed overnight as a spices? No we haven't. Perhaps what we intake changed because after all cancer has to come from something - yes! our water get polluted, our food get packed with chemistry (Dupont produces your tires as well as ingredients for your breakfast bread and is more into food business than ever), and also our air got more polluted than ever.
So before you feel good writing check to a non profit or think that adding a $1 to your bill in food market helps fight cancer, do any of the following:
- call your local officials and complain. while your complain might be a blimp on radar, the more complains then more your officials will notices. at the end they want to know what people like/hate about their community -- not to help you, but rather to help themselves win next election. - sign petitions for better oversight into companies like Monsato who are in business to sterilize you and force your friend-farmer to suicide through dropping their attorney's fees on them. - buy a water filter but also check with your local water supply they run statistics on water pollution. make sting if they are out of chart (most counties, they are) - educate friends on food quality. Have them stop looking at price but more on ingredients. just because something is 40cents cheaper, doesnt mean its okay. - educate your friends and family on high corn fructose syrup and sugar substitutes. - promote and make your friends aware of non-gmo organic movement - research and educate yourself and your family on list of ingredients and products that EU bans. EU is the last bastion of common sense when it comes to your family's health safety but with laws like TPP in place, Monstato will be able to sue EU countries and force them to sell products with ingredients that EU had good reasons to ban in the first place.
You see, cancer was a tiny spot on radar just 50 years ago. Or 100 even more. So the question is - what happened? Have we somehow changed overnight as a spices? No we haven't. Perhaps what we intake changed because after all cancer has to come from something - yes! our water get polluted, our food get packed with chemistry (Dupont produces your tires as well as ingredients for your breakfast bread and is more into food business than ever), and also our air got more polluted than ever.
So before you feel good writing check to a non profit or think that adding a $1 to your bill in food market helps fight cancer, do any of the following:
- call your local officials and complain. while your complain might be a blimp on radar, the more complains then more your officials will notices. at the end they want to know what people like/hate about their community -- not to help you, but rather to help themselves win next election. - sign petitions for better oversight into companies like Monsato who are in business to sterilize you and force your friend-farmer to suicide through dropping their attorney's fees on them. - buy a water filter but also check with your local water supply they run statistics on water pollution. make sting if they are out of chart (most counties, they are) - educate friends on food quality. Have them stop looking at price but more on ingredients. just because something is 40cents cheaper, doesnt mean its okay. - educate your friends and family on high corn fructose syrup and sugar substitutes. - promote and make your friends aware of non-gmo organic movement - research and educate yourself and your family on list of ingredients and products that EU bans. EU is the last bastion of common sense when it comes to your family's health safety but with laws like TPP in place, Monstato will be able to sue EU countries and force them to sell products with ingredients that EU had good reasons to ban in the first place.
> You see, cancer was a tiny spot on radar just 50 years ago. Or 100 even more. So the question is - what happened? Have we somehow changed overnight as a spices? No we haven't.
First, variety is the species of life.
Second, the reason cancer wasn't "on the radar" is because we didn't know much.
If you look into the history of cancer, it has existed forever. Wikipedia claims Hippocrate himself wrote about it! [1]
And as late as the 19th century, survival rate was around 10%.[2]
Your concerns have very little, if anything, to do with cancer. Monsanto didn't even exist in the 19th century.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast_cancer_awareness
First, variety is the species of life.
Second, the reason cancer wasn't "on the radar" is because we didn't know much.
If you look into the history of cancer, it has existed forever. Wikipedia claims Hippocrate himself wrote about it! [1]
And as late as the 19th century, survival rate was around 10%.[2]
Your concerns have very little, if anything, to do with cancer. Monsanto didn't even exist in the 19th century.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast_cancer_awareness
> Second, the reason cancer wasn't "on the radar" is because we didn't know much.
Plus, we often didn't live long enough for cancer to set in. It's hard to die of cancer if you drop dead of typhus or TB first. Cancer is the end stage of life; it's what kills you if nothing else does. We've finally reached the point where a very large percentage of the population is making it far enough to get there.
Plus, we often didn't live long enough for cancer to set in. It's hard to die of cancer if you drop dead of typhus or TB first. Cancer is the end stage of life; it's what kills you if nothing else does. We've finally reached the point where a very large percentage of the population is making it far enough to get there.
This is just so uneducated.
Do you know how cancer biology works?
Accumulated cell and nuclear damage from an endless assortment of factors cause cells to enter disease states. When certain errant states that regulate cell proliferation and apoptosis begin to accumulate, cell populations begin to drift into the cancer territory.
The number one cause of cancer is life. There are accelerating factors in the environment, for sure, but cancer is simply an error state of our biology. It's the machinery of higher order life breaking down and entering a pattern that doesn't self-regulate.
Do you know how cancer biology works?
Accumulated cell and nuclear damage from an endless assortment of factors cause cells to enter disease states. When certain errant states that regulate cell proliferation and apoptosis begin to accumulate, cell populations begin to drift into the cancer territory.
The number one cause of cancer is life. There are accelerating factors in the environment, for sure, but cancer is simply an error state of our biology. It's the machinery of higher order life breaking down and entering a pattern that doesn't self-regulate.
I think you have to try to put yourself in the mind of someone who is receptive to conspiracy theories when replying to people like above.
What you said makes sense, but it is only convincing if you already trust the scientific institutions and believe in reductionism. And that, is unfortunately much less common than we would think.
The guy believes that there are poisons in everyday products, telling them that "damage from an endless assortment of factors cause cells to enter disease states" is not at all a refutation of their belief taken from their point of view. In fact, I expect that it even looks like weasel wording for exactly what they said from their point of view.
I think that on topics like this, it's important to expose the premises, the concrete basic facts much more than the conclusion, the general abstraction.
What you said makes sense, but it is only convincing if you already trust the scientific institutions and believe in reductionism. And that, is unfortunately much less common than we would think.
The guy believes that there are poisons in everyday products, telling them that "damage from an endless assortment of factors cause cells to enter disease states" is not at all a refutation of their belief taken from their point of view. In fact, I expect that it even looks like weasel wording for exactly what they said from their point of view.
I think that on topics like this, it's important to expose the premises, the concrete basic facts much more than the conclusion, the general abstraction.
In all seriousness, please take your anti-science fear-mongering rant and GTFO.
From the article Confessions of a Necromancer:
if you have the trust of your client, and s/he has real power, you have done half the work already.
don't make stuff and then try to sell it unless you are growing an existing client base.
breaking into markets you don't know is probably impossible.
Build up trust with the client and sometimes they will reward you for it.
When you've paid for all the mistakes, you should know how to do it right the next time.
A good specification lets diverse people work together without confusion or conflict.
If you can test each piece alone, and you have reliable ways of putting them together, the whole should work.
Don't be afraid to charge the real cost.
be aware of your expenditure and manage your losses. You can survive a long time with less income if you are in tight control of what you spend.
What's good software? Good software is used by people to solve real problems. Good software saves people money, or makes them a profit. It can be buggy, incomplete, undocumented, slow. Yet it can also be good. You can always make good software better yet it's only worth doing when it's already good.
if you have the trust of your client, and s/he has real power, you have done half the work already.
don't make stuff and then try to sell it unless you are growing an existing client base.
breaking into markets you don't know is probably impossible.
Build up trust with the client and sometimes they will reward you for it.
When you've paid for all the mistakes, you should know how to do it right the next time.
A good specification lets diverse people work together without confusion or conflict.
If you can test each piece alone, and you have reliable ways of putting them together, the whole should work.
Don't be afraid to charge the real cost.
be aware of your expenditure and manage your losses. You can survive a long time with less income if you are in tight control of what you spend.
What's good software? Good software is used by people to solve real problems. Good software saves people money, or makes them a profit. It can be buggy, incomplete, undocumented, slow. Yet it can also be good. You can always make good software better yet it's only worth doing when it's already good.
To expand a little on this comment, it is highlighting some of the main ideas from one of Pieter's most recent posts (and one of his very best, which is really saying something).
It's presumably the parent's tribute to him, which I can appreciate.
It's presumably the parent's tribute to him, which I can appreciate.
You may want to read his The Ultimate Lessons at:
http://hintjens.com/blog:125
http://hintjens.com/blog:125
I've been completely blown away with Pieter's courage and willingness to share his journey. I hope I have 10% the dignity when my time comes!
I am as well, and I hope that his writing and sharing of the process can help euthanasia become more widespread.
I just hope that when it comes time for me or my loved ones to go, that they will be able to do it on their terms.
I just hope that when it comes time for me or my loved ones to go, that they will be able to do it on their terms.
I don't know you, Just read http://hintjens.com/blog:115
Thanks for the your contributions and sharing the journey.
To fellow HN users: Please check out "Think of the Children" and donate if possible. thanks!
Thanks for the your contributions and sharing the journey.
To fellow HN users: Please check out "Think of the Children" and donate if possible. thanks!
The "Think of the Children" is worth pasting it here :
Please use this article to add your stories. If you have them elsewhere, or you emailed me, copy/paste as a comment. Feel free to write in Dutch or French if that's your language. I'd really like a single place where my kids can come and read what other people say about their dad.
Many people have asked my PayPal address [email protected], to send a donation for my children.
Please use this article to add your stories. If you have them elsewhere, or you emailed me, copy/paste as a comment. Feel free to write in Dutch or French if that's your language. I'd really like a single place where my kids can come and read what other people say about their dad.
Many people have asked my PayPal address [email protected], to send a donation for my children.
Having recently started using ZeroMQ at work, I must admit that Pieter gave the world a really elegant message queue solution.
The world is losing another great hacker.
Would a black bar be considered?
The world is losing another great hacker.
Would a black bar be considered?
> Would a black bar be considered?
As on top of HN? I guess somone would have to e-mail admins for that.
As on top of HN? I guess somone would have to e-mail admins for that.
Context: http://hintjens.com/blog:115 and other recent posts by Pieter.
>It can be horribly awkward to talk to a dying person (let's say "Bob"). Here are the main things the other person (let's say "Alice") should not say to Bob:
Same thing at funeral. I'm always trying to convince others to remember good things, not go into depression. You can't do much after it happened.
Same thing at funeral. I'm always trying to convince others to remember good things, not go into depression. You can't do much after it happened.
Few hours ago there were this discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12631488
And now we have this tweet from someone I respect very much, someone who took part of his time too tell his feelings on how you could/should treat someone that is having his final moments.
And now we have this tweet from someone I respect very much, someone who took part of his time too tell his feelings on how you could/should treat someone that is having his final moments.
Just wanted to mention that in previous posts Pieter mentioned that donations (he was not soliciting them) for his kids and family could be sent via PayPal to [email protected] . I did not know him personally so I cannot speak for his situation, but in those posts it was apparent that he was not a wealthy man (my take on the conversation). I could not imagine leaving my children to fend for themselves in this world. It struck me that our children are so similar in ages.
I find this post along with the comments unsettling, but I am unable to articulate why. (It is not the choice, nor the announcement of the choice. There is something about the dynamic here that doesn't sit right with me. Apologies for my failure to elaborate.) I wish him the best and deeply appreciate his sharing part of his journey.
I agree, the comments are unsettling, they seem to disregard or not take serious Peter's wishes and plans. As the practice of euthanasia becomes more common place perhaps it will get easier to discuss but, like you, I'm having a hard time putting into words my thoughts on this....
Death has always been something that came to you — naturally or via some agency — and not the other way around; and only rarely is its time known beforehand (i.e., executions). It is a relatively modern phenomenon that we actively seek death in these cases, and decide when to go whilst being a part of the community around you. Sure there are the customs of elderly tribesmen wondering off into the wilderness to die, but that too abstracts death away into something that happens to you, not something you actively invite.
Society isn't used to this notion, and we don't really have any handholds to fall back to. Do you mourn with the person while he is still alive? Go on as if nothing really changed? Celebrate life with them while you still can? Euthanasia is becoming widely accepted; at least at the abstract levels of law and medicine, so we'll probably figure it out eventually.
Perhaps the Hallmarks of the world can introduce a nice line of cards for the occasion?
Society isn't used to this notion, and we don't really have any handholds to fall back to. Do you mourn with the person while he is still alive? Go on as if nothing really changed? Celebrate life with them while you still can? Euthanasia is becoming widely accepted; at least at the abstract levels of law and medicine, so we'll probably figure it out eventually.
Perhaps the Hallmarks of the world can introduce a nice line of cards for the occasion?
Perhaps the Hallmarks of the world can introduce a nice line of cards for the occasion?
Best comment of the thread. Made me smile.
I assume that we'll be inventing new traditions as we go along. Should be fun to watch different ones being tried out.
Best comment of the thread. Made me smile.
I assume that we'll be inventing new traditions as we go along. Should be fun to watch different ones being tried out.
People deal with death a lot of different ways. If it was easy, there wouldn't be so many rituals around it.
Would it be the inevitability of death that disturbs you?
Nyah. I'm 51 years old and buried my parents. Death is real and probably closer than I imagine.
Perhaps it's the productization of death?
I received this news as a retweet in my Twitter feed. Next to it was a bit.ly link about Configuration Management tools, the announcement of a speaker at a conference, and a famous quote from Einstein.
Right now on HN it's #4. Next to it is a blog post about tools and frameworks and a post about a PostgreSQL extension. The response to Pieter's tweet is lengthy and very kind. It would be a privilege to hear those thoughts in my own life before I leave. But the thoughts will still keep coming, probably long after he's gone.
I met a nice lady three years ago. She was a "social media consultant" in the local area, which basically consisted of teaching small business owners how to navigate the web. We met for lunch several times when I was in town.
Soon, though, she learned she had stage 4 lung cancer. I had lunch with her one more time. I'll never forget how weary she looked.
She held on for almost a year, then she passed.
For many weeks after that, however, Facebook was full of her many friends offering their condolences. Facebook would remind me that she liked certain things as a way to sell me on things. Every so often people would think of her and post on her wall. These posts appeared in my feed.
Last week I finally had to unfriend her. She was dead. But it didn't stop the computerized social network that Facebook to stop trying to monetize as much of her presence as they could. Even if somebody had set her account to deceased, Facebook will always own some part of her existence.
It feels like turning a tender, emotional, precious thing into a bucket of bits. I find that repugnant.
Perhaps it's the productization of death?
I received this news as a retweet in my Twitter feed. Next to it was a bit.ly link about Configuration Management tools, the announcement of a speaker at a conference, and a famous quote from Einstein.
Right now on HN it's #4. Next to it is a blog post about tools and frameworks and a post about a PostgreSQL extension. The response to Pieter's tweet is lengthy and very kind. It would be a privilege to hear those thoughts in my own life before I leave. But the thoughts will still keep coming, probably long after he's gone.
I met a nice lady three years ago. She was a "social media consultant" in the local area, which basically consisted of teaching small business owners how to navigate the web. We met for lunch several times when I was in town.
Soon, though, she learned she had stage 4 lung cancer. I had lunch with her one more time. I'll never forget how weary she looked.
She held on for almost a year, then she passed.
For many weeks after that, however, Facebook was full of her many friends offering their condolences. Facebook would remind me that she liked certain things as a way to sell me on things. Every so often people would think of her and post on her wall. These posts appeared in my feed.
Last week I finally had to unfriend her. She was dead. But it didn't stop the computerized social network that Facebook to stop trying to monetize as much of her presence as they could. Even if somebody had set her account to deceased, Facebook will always own some part of her existence.
It feels like turning a tender, emotional, precious thing into a bucket of bits. I find that repugnant.
I am in 2 minds about this. Part of me agrees with you but the other part of me doesn't.
Personally, I feel death (and afterlife) has played an important role in popularising (selling?) religion.It is still a difficult subject to talk about, in some cultures even joking about your own death is a big no-no. Maybe this is the best way to break this barrier and understand that death is "normal" and it's okay to talk about it along with other normal things. Maybe this "productization" will get us all to a point where we are all okay talking about it openly and frankly, without making a big deal about it?
Personally, I feel death (and afterlife) has played an important role in popularising (selling?) religion.It is still a difficult subject to talk about, in some cultures even joking about your own death is a big no-no. Maybe this is the best way to break this barrier and understand that death is "normal" and it's okay to talk about it along with other normal things. Maybe this "productization" will get us all to a point where we are all okay talking about it openly and frankly, without making a big deal about it?
I agree with what I think you're saying, but the right words can be very tricky here.
Maybe this "productization" will get us all to a point where we are all okay talking about it openly and frankly, without making a big deal about it?
What's a "big deal"? For my friend, I knew her and she seemed like a nice person. I did not know her that well, though. The first couple of times somebody posted how sad they were on her wall, I was moved. The second couple of times, sad to say, not so much. By the time we got to 20 or 30, I was both annoyed -- and angry at myself for being annoyed.
How about her husband? He got to watch her die, bury her, and then watch all this come in, day-after-day. Two months later he was dead.
Social networks take everything and genericize it. What was a big deal to me was probably a huge deal to him. Assuming those little bits were somehow part of who she was, you can't just assume that they were the same kind of "big deal" to everyone involved. To me, to the husband, to the still living kid. [ed: and it's not right to try to force it into the same kind of deal for everybody. That's dehumanizing.]
I'm a transhumanist and I think the singularity is coming and I'm okay with that. But as we evolve, we have to stop and take a freaking look at what we're doing. Software may be eating the world, but the world is not all the same stuff. The differences matter.
Maybe this "productization" will get us all to a point where we are all okay talking about it openly and frankly, without making a big deal about it?
What's a "big deal"? For my friend, I knew her and she seemed like a nice person. I did not know her that well, though. The first couple of times somebody posted how sad they were on her wall, I was moved. The second couple of times, sad to say, not so much. By the time we got to 20 or 30, I was both annoyed -- and angry at myself for being annoyed.
How about her husband? He got to watch her die, bury her, and then watch all this come in, day-after-day. Two months later he was dead.
Social networks take everything and genericize it. What was a big deal to me was probably a huge deal to him. Assuming those little bits were somehow part of who she was, you can't just assume that they were the same kind of "big deal" to everyone involved. To me, to the husband, to the still living kid. [ed: and it's not right to try to force it into the same kind of deal for everybody. That's dehumanizing.]
I'm a transhumanist and I think the singularity is coming and I'm okay with that. But as we evolve, we have to stop and take a freaking look at what we're doing. Software may be eating the world, but the world is not all the same stuff. The differences matter.
I am not great with words, please accept my apologies.
When I say "big deal", I meant it more like talking about homosexuality is now less of a "big deal" then it was back in the day. I am not saying that the loss itself is not a big deal, just talking about it shouldn't be.
Maybe, if we live in a society where it's easy to talk about death then maybe the grieving process would become easier too. Right now, people tend to act weird around people who has just lost someone (I have experienced that first hand), the people who are suffering the loss feel like they have to "stay strong" and not show their emotions to others because they don't want to be a burden. It's a vicious cycle which we can break by just talking about it.
When I say "big deal", I meant it more like talking about homosexuality is now less of a "big deal" then it was back in the day. I am not saying that the loss itself is not a big deal, just talking about it shouldn't be.
Maybe, if we live in a society where it's easy to talk about death then maybe the grieving process would become easier too. Right now, people tend to act weird around people who has just lost someone (I have experienced that first hand), the people who are suffering the loss feel like they have to "stay strong" and not show their emotions to others because they don't want to be a burden. It's a vicious cycle which we can break by just talking about it.
I agree that it should be easier to talk about death. And tech really isn't the issue there -- unless the tech is keeping us in a cocoon.
Back when the U.S. Civil War happened, photography was still new. Some folks thought that the new tech would finally wake people up to the horrors of war.
Didn't work out like that. People already knew the horrors of war and dying. You could run a picture of ten thousand people dead on a battlefield and while people felt the severe pain of that loss -- it was not horrifying to them. They lived with it everyday. (In fact, some early uses of photography was taking pictures of the recently dead. So you could remember them.)
I don't know. I may feel completely different about all of this when it comes my turn. I am really glad that the voices of people about to be silenced forever can be heard. In fact I think it's such a special thing that it really shouldn't appear next to an ad for Spacely's Space Sprockets.
We should have open and honest dialogues about death, yes. That doesn't mean that we should think of death in the same way as we might think of buying a newspaper. There's a categorically different thing going on here, regardless of any extraneous baggage that anybody might carry into the discussion.
Back when the U.S. Civil War happened, photography was still new. Some folks thought that the new tech would finally wake people up to the horrors of war.
Didn't work out like that. People already knew the horrors of war and dying. You could run a picture of ten thousand people dead on a battlefield and while people felt the severe pain of that loss -- it was not horrifying to them. They lived with it everyday. (In fact, some early uses of photography was taking pictures of the recently dead. So you could remember them.)
I don't know. I may feel completely different about all of this when it comes my turn. I am really glad that the voices of people about to be silenced forever can be heard. In fact I think it's such a special thing that it really shouldn't appear next to an ad for Spacely's Space Sprockets.
We should have open and honest dialogues about death, yes. That doesn't mean that we should think of death in the same way as we might think of buying a newspaper. There's a categorically different thing going on here, regardless of any extraneous baggage that anybody might carry into the discussion.
What you described above, the "productization" of someone's death, is part of a bigger problem, where people are isolated from each other by technology and by a dehumanizing (and uncoincidentally technophilic) culture that turns people into appointments or tasks or problems to be solved or opportunities to make money or anything and everything more convenient and less difficult than, well, people. I could go on and on naming examples, but I think HN itself does a well enough job by self-selecting perfect examples to the front page every day. You're 51, I'm only 31, so you obviously have a lot more life experience than me (almost twice as much). But I think the fact that I'm already weary and wary of pretty much everyone and everything around me, including everyone and everything at HN, probably says something about modern suburban American culture.
Not to derail the conversation but this whole discussion on "productization" reminded me of the plot line of a Black Mirror episode. When I originally watched it I found it mostly absurd but now in the context of this thread it makes a whole lot of sense.
Here is the episode I am referring to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Right_Back_(Black_Mirror)
Here is the episode I am referring to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be_Right_Back_(Black_Mirror)
I'm seeing a bit of Niel Postman's Technopoly criticism of media. We get these little news snippets, originally by wire to select locations, now anybody via Twitter, Facebook, Snapchat, or HN. I see Pieter's notice sandwiched between police complaints / cameras, and the Nobel prize in physics. One out of two ain't bad.
Information, writing, and media have the ability to convey information totally unrelated to our present reality from anywhere on the planet, and a few points beyond. But leave us with having to contextualise all of it.
It's quite jarring. Not the first time I've received a death notice by (nominally) social media. Still carries a shock.
As for the "after he's gone" -- that's what death is, so far as I've realised. Life for the deceased stops, for the rest of us, it goes on. We have experiences, and conversations, and reminiscences, in which the dead are only memories.
Information, writing, and media have the ability to convey information totally unrelated to our present reality from anywhere on the planet, and a few points beyond. But leave us with having to contextualise all of it.
It's quite jarring. Not the first time I've received a death notice by (nominally) social media. Still carries a shock.
As for the "after he's gone" -- that's what death is, so far as I've realised. Life for the deceased stops, for the rest of us, it goes on. We have experiences, and conversations, and reminiscences, in which the dead are only memories.
It is precisely that.
Some of her consciousness lives through your memories and mirror neurons. Not just in the bucket of bits. Thanks for sharing.
This use of 'just' is curious. It suggests that some degree of a person's consciousness inheres in their Facebook account. Is this intentional? If so, will you explain how you arrive at that conclusion?
What unsettles me is cancer. I did my PhD in cancer research, lost relatives to it and discovered how bad it is. I would do anything to prevent getting it, but I know there's no way. May his family and friends find peace.
Can you elaborate what makes cancer any more frightening than any other things that may get us? Is it the threat of pain? As long as we are mortal our journey is a finite one anyway.
I guess it's more frightening because we're more likely to develop cancer than most other diseases, it occurs for the most part purely randomly and chances are high that it leads to a slow and painful death. Cancers evolve to resist drugs and radiation, and due to the nature of evolution, you are unable to tell if and when it happens. As I wrote under another article, cancer is a fundamental dread of all higher multicellular life. Is that comforting? Maybe on a bigger perspective. What makes it bad for humans is that they know what's happening.
My father died of liver cancer. A piece of me died in those weeks of his misery, and pain right up to his horrid death.
My father was not a kind man. He was petty, selfish person, but I still would have done anything for him.
Looking back, he was under medicated while in Palliative Care. He was at home, but that shouldn't be an issue? No one in the family could figure out why he wasen't given more medication. He saw a Hospice Doctor once, I believe, and a couple of nurses dropped by.
Getting him pain meds, and benzodiazepines was a battle. It's such a stressful situation, and getting meds should be difficult?
He never seemed to have enough. I look back, and don't know what the problem was with the lack of strong medication. Maybe the doctors didn't want too much around? I don't know? They should alleviated his pain better though.
I understand no cures, but alleviate the misery with drugs. We do have drugs?
There were times, I felt like, if I knew where to buy it; I would have bought him heroin.
I accept death. We can make patients comfortable when they are dying with medication? Maybe we were the the family that wasen't vocal enough? I don't know, but in my dads death; Hospice did a terrible job.
Hospice has a lot of money. I was surprised, because I heard they were a good organization.
(I didn't want to read this post. I had a feeling it was Peiter. I don't know the man, but truely admire his courage.)
My father was not a kind man. He was petty, selfish person, but I still would have done anything for him.
Looking back, he was under medicated while in Palliative Care. He was at home, but that shouldn't be an issue? No one in the family could figure out why he wasen't given more medication. He saw a Hospice Doctor once, I believe, and a couple of nurses dropped by.
Getting him pain meds, and benzodiazepines was a battle. It's such a stressful situation, and getting meds should be difficult?
He never seemed to have enough. I look back, and don't know what the problem was with the lack of strong medication. Maybe the doctors didn't want too much around? I don't know? They should alleviated his pain better though.
I understand no cures, but alleviate the misery with drugs. We do have drugs?
There were times, I felt like, if I knew where to buy it; I would have bought him heroin.
I accept death. We can make patients comfortable when they are dying with medication? Maybe we were the the family that wasen't vocal enough? I don't know, but in my dads death; Hospice did a terrible job.
Hospice has a lot of money. I was surprised, because I heard they were a good organization.
(I didn't want to read this post. I had a feeling it was Peiter. I don't know the man, but truely admire his courage.)
There might be some screwy regulations that if you drug a person too much - no matter how terminally ill they are or how in pain - you are doing a criminal offense. Also, there is this strange worship of suffering in some circles - how just bearing ones load is somehow more noble than being blissfully stoned.
Not a medical professional, though.
I think parts of me died for both of my parents death. All the strength.
My mother spent her last month as psychiatric patient at an alcoholics ward, and only after she had died autopsy discovered she had pancreatic cancer. She was mostly incoherent, frightened and delusional. They said she screamed through the nights. Despite her history I cannot even after years stop wondering was that really the correct place to tend to her-and why did her mental condition lapse so thoroughly before the end. Death and lack of dignity sucks.
Not a medical professional, though.
I think parts of me died for both of my parents death. All the strength.
My mother spent her last month as psychiatric patient at an alcoholics ward, and only after she had died autopsy discovered she had pancreatic cancer. She was mostly incoherent, frightened and delusional. They said she screamed through the nights. Despite her history I cannot even after years stop wondering was that really the correct place to tend to her-and why did her mental condition lapse so thoroughly before the end. Death and lack of dignity sucks.
If you have lost relatives to cancer, it means it runs in the family. That, I suppose, makes it worse than any other disease, i.e., the threat becomes more real.
I think the genetic component of cancer depends very much on the kind of cancer one has. Lots of other conditions have a strong genetic component - poor cardiovascular health, depression, schizophrenia, alzheimer's, strong disposition towards substance abuse, etc. I would not call it "worse" than for example the genetic likelihood of 80% of developing alzheimers at an early age (which luckily I don't personally have).
Perhaps this is a very personal view - but as I've lost relatives to all sorts of maladies including cancer I find it really hard to see cancer as the absolutely worst bogeyman in the room. That's not to say it's not bad.
Perhaps this is a very personal view - but as I've lost relatives to all sorts of maladies including cancer I find it really hard to see cancer as the absolutely worst bogeyman in the room. That's not to say it's not bad.
Luckily, there's no evidence that it really runs in my family genetically. The threat still becomes more real as I have witnessed it.
In my mind, death is a travesty. As someone who thinks about death (my own) when I'm incredibly stressed and upset, I know I can't carry out the act. But it's distressing and horrific, and it fucks with my mind. There is no other word violent or crude enough to describe it, so that's a very deliberate choice of phrasing I make.
If it matters to you, I'd be interested to hear any elaboration you might choose to undertake.
I'm a bit sad that so many here go on tangents instead of finding out what Pieter really is/was about. Trust me, when you go through his blog entries at hintjens.com and read his books, you will find yourself in a magic wonderland of better ways to program and be happy. This is not a sad day.
Glad he was a citizen in a society humane enough to let people choose this final option.
He has left us a lot of work. I knew about ZeroMQ, "The Psychopath Code" [1], "The Devil's Wiki" [2], could we make a summary here as a tribute?
[1] https://github.com/hintjens/psychopathcode
[2] http://wiki.hintjens.com/
[1] https://github.com/hintjens/psychopathcode
[2] http://wiki.hintjens.com/
Books by Pieter Hintjens [0].
[0] http://hintjens.com/books
[0] http://hintjens.com/books
I don't know much about Pieter but when I first read ZeroMQ's documentation it became clear he's an exceptionally talented individual.
Goodbye Pieter.
(This really hits me, since my brother in law may be about to do the same in a few weeks.. days perhaps.)
(This really hits me, since my brother in law may be about to do the same in a few weeks.. days perhaps.)
Pieter,
Thank you. For everything. I'm sure the rest of the community shares my opinion that you've contributed so much to the field.
For all that it matters, I wish you a pleasant departure.
Thank you. For everything. I'm sure the rest of the community shares my opinion that you've contributed so much to the field.
For all that it matters, I wish you a pleasant departure.
When does a computer scientist stop being a computer scientist?
It's sad seeing Bob and Alice used in such a morbid context but at least we know we'll be thinking in terms of protocol, complexity, and CS even on our death beds. It's something that will never leave us.
I've read very little of his work. I think I'll change that.
It's sad seeing Bob and Alice used in such a morbid context but at least we know we'll be thinking in terms of protocol, complexity, and CS even on our death beds. It's something that will never leave us.
I've read very little of his work. I think I'll change that.
This is where we are all headed. Few of us will choose the time and place.
Like many others, I've never met him, but he has touched my soul.
I enjoyed his writings on community building most. He himself being a very approachable person, taught me everything we do is about people, not software. I'll definitely miss him in the days to come.
Peace Peter.
I enjoyed his writings on community building most. He himself being a very approachable person, taught me everything we do is about people, not software. I'll definitely miss him in the days to come.
Peace Peter.
I don't know what to say. I just knew Pieter Hintjens when he wrote posts about his condition, fighting cancer that he has. By that time, I also just knew that you're a great man behind ZeroMQ. I used your works and it's such an amazing library.
Thank you for being transparent about your condition. It makes me to remind about death. I am sorry. Thank you for contributing everything what you have done for people in the world.
Peace Pieter. You will be missed.
Thank you for being transparent about your condition. It makes me to remind about death. I am sorry. Thank you for contributing everything what you have done for people in the world.
Peace Pieter. You will be missed.
This should remind us that life can be short and will end one day anyway. So we should try to enjoy every bit of it and don't waste time with bullshit.
R.I.P. Pieter Hintjens. For more about Pieter Hintjens check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieter_Hintjens
R.I.P. Pieter Hintjens. For more about Pieter Hintjens check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieter_Hintjens
Fighting Cancer
http://hintjens.com/blog:123
Heart-wrenching.
Heart-wrenching.
Sad to read this. And actually also a bit surprised, considering that 2 weeks ago he posted an article that mentioned "This is a short book more than an article. I'll continue to revise it over time, according to your comments."
http://hintjens.com/blog:125
http://hintjens.com/blog:125
Correctly predicting timing is hard with cancer.
Yes. I knew someone (about 30 years old) who had brain cancer.
When he had chemo, he looked like he was dying any second now. A week after he looked like a normal healthy person.
Last time I saw him was a few weeks before he died, we were partying like he wasn't even sick and suddendly he was dead.
But it's generally a strange feeling to lose people around you.
In the last two years I lost about 4 people. One to old age, two to cancer and one was even murdered. I still have the last moments with them in my memories. We were like "yeah lets go do XYZ together in a few weeks/months" and now they are simply gone and won't come back.
When he had chemo, he looked like he was dying any second now. A week after he looked like a normal healthy person.
Last time I saw him was a few weeks before he died, we were partying like he wasn't even sick and suddendly he was dead.
But it's generally a strange feeling to lose people around you.
In the last two years I lost about 4 people. One to old age, two to cancer and one was even murdered. I still have the last moments with them in my memories. We were like "yeah lets go do XYZ together in a few weeks/months" and now they are simply gone and won't come back.
I was kind of expecting a black bar on HN by now, but the comments here are more of a statement of how much people respected him than any symbol.
ZeroMQ and his work are amazing. He will be missed.
I've never met Pieter, but I have enormous respect for him. His writing is some of the most insightful there is, and it changed my thinking on a lot of things, especially outside of computer science.
He finished his book Confessions of a Necromancer recently. It's well worth a read:
https://www.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/confessions-of-a-necro...
I don't really know what to say anymore. I will always admire him.
He finished his book Confessions of a Necromancer recently. It's well worth a read:
https://www.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/confessions-of-a-necro...
I don't really know what to say anymore. I will always admire him.
Just watching Pieter's interview with Adam:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApqI9XLRk4k
Thank you for the journey, Pieter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApqI9XLRk4k
Thank you for the journey, Pieter.
It makes me sad that I'm only becoming aware of this man and his work through the announcement of his chosen death.
Thank you HN for exposing me to worlds I would never otherwise discover.
On a personal note, I definitely will be using 0MQ in all my future projects. As a matter of fact, I'm glad I found it exactly this moment.
Thank you HN for exposing me to worlds I would never otherwise discover.
On a personal note, I definitely will be using 0MQ in all my future projects. As a matter of fact, I'm glad I found it exactly this moment.
If anyone here hasn't listened to his "protocol for dying" episode of The Changelog from several months ago, you really should: https://changelog.com/205/
Pieter, I always really appreciate the conversation here. It was a pleasure to have the back-and-forth with you on HN. Your username is one of the few that I routinely recognize and it will definitely be missed.
I'm pretty astounded at how some pretty cool guy's decision to die has morphed into people talking about themselves.
I'm a geek, I sort of get it, but aren't the people talking about themselves and their choices and their views even slightly ashamed? Could we have a fucking moment to just honor this guy? I don't even know him, I'm just cringing.
I'm a geek, I sort of get it, but aren't the people talking about themselves and their choices and their views even slightly ashamed? Could we have a fucking moment to just honor this guy? I don't even know him, I'm just cringing.
People love to talk about themselves, it's what they know best.
Take your post as an example.
Take your post as an example.
I got to know Pieter, as I was listening The ChangeLog's podcast and his sharing was amazing.
Thank you Pieter and rest in peace.
Thank you Pieter and rest in peace.
I was moved by his blog post, few weeks back, on HN. As a token of my respect, I just bought his book, The psychopath code[1]
[1] http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths
[1] http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths
I discovered his writing only recently. What a great thinker and a brave person. This is sad news.
Brilliant mind, exceptional work.
His post on living systems is absolutely great, just discovered thanks to his thread...
http://hintjens.com/blog:74
http://hintjens.com/blog:74
Pieter,
I don't know you, and I don't even know who you are, but my heart goes out to you. Nobody should have to suffer in pain, and I deeply respect you for taking control of your last moments.
Fare thee well.
I don't know you, and I don't even know who you are, but my heart goes out to you. Nobody should have to suffer in pain, and I deeply respect you for taking control of your last moments.
Fare thee well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieter_Hintjens
Updated already...
Godspeed Pieter, thanks for everything!
See you on the other side
Very saddening to hear something like this. But after knowing his work in software it's even more hurting. Rest in peace sir. You have our deepest respects.
With the greatest respect to Pieter and the situation, announcing it this way on social media to many people is (was ?) last words.
Well done, Pieter. Thank you for your excellent writings and ground-breaking open source work, and for sharing your humanity. Farewell.
This is one of those occasions when I hope someone's account has been hacked.
Farewell Pieter and may you live on in our memories.
Farewell Pieter and may you live on in our memories.
I discovered his writing only recently. What a great thinker as well a brave person. This is sad news.
Can someone explain me the python(3) reference from the end? I don't seem to get the pun
A remarkable mind and a keen and joyful lad, I hope Peter finds rest at last.
Goodbye, I enjoyed reading your work and comments here.
I wish I lived in a country that gave someone this choice
Please take a look at this [1]. Very difficult topic but I think this comment maps out the concerns very helpfully.
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12631488
[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12631488
Where you live isn't fixed.
An incredible pioneer that will be greatly missed.
May flights of angels sing him to his rest.
Very sad. RIP Pieter.
Black bar on Hacker News, please.
Black bar on Hacker News, please.
Nice people dying and terrible people living like forever, this world sucks :(
it was a honor knowing you.
Baruch dayan emet.
What is ETD?
Probably estimated time of death.
I think I prefer departure
There was a recent The Moth: Radio Hour [1] where an emergency room physician talked about dealing with death in the ER. I was struck by the deliberate decision to be blunt about what had happened. She specifically says that she cannot mince words and say that the patient "departed" or "moved on" because inevitably the concerned family and friends will assume that their loved one has been moved to another hospital or something.
This is not to argue your point of preference. It's just something that changed my perspective recently, and it may be interesting.
1. http://player.themoth.org/#/?actionType=ADD_AND_PLAY&storyId...
This is not to argue your point of preference. It's just something that changed my perspective recently, and it may be interesting.
1. http://player.themoth.org/#/?actionType=ADD_AND_PLAY&storyId...
They made this a serial joke on Arrested Development if you remember. Starting with the doctor saying, "We lost your father" and the whole family goes into shock and mourning. The doctor continues, "We can't find him anywhere, we have no idea where he is" and the Bluth family go beserk at the lexical ineptitude of his communication.
"He's going to be all right."
"Oh, thank god!" "Finally, some good news from this guy!"
"That's a great attitude. I gotta tell you, if I were getting this news I don't know that I'd take it this well."
"But, you said he was alright?"
"Yes. He's lost his left hand, so he's going to be all right"
"Oh, thank god!" "Finally, some good news from this guy!"
"That's a great attitude. I gotta tell you, if I were getting this news I don't know that I'd take it this well."
"But, you said he was alright?"
"Yes. He's lost his left hand, so he's going to be all right"
Why sugar-coat reality?
> In this respect, the phrase or its abbreviation is often paired with its complement, "estimated time of departure" or "ETD", to indicate the expected start time of a particular journey.[citation needed]
Source: wikipedia
Source: wikipedia
Someone announcing their choosing euthanasia is no time to discuss death, I suppose.
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Estimated time of delivery
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Erm, why is he not frozen?
For some reason, in Europe, even less people seriously consider cryonics as an option, despite the population being generally less religious. Some view it with cynicism. Others just laugh.
Probably because it's quackery. http://thebaffler.com/salvos/everybody-freeze-pein
What a garbage article. It goes on and on about how weird cryonics is without discussing the science or whether or not it works. Of course cryonics is weird. That's not an argument.
Cryonics works. The connectome of your brain, what makes you, you, is preserved. At −238 degrees almost anything organic can be preserved for a long, long time. And with careful procedures done to prevent the formation of ice crystals, the damage done by the freezing process is minimal. It's by far the best chance you have of surviving.
Cryonics works. The connectome of your brain, what makes you, you, is preserved. At −238 degrees almost anything organic can be preserved for a long, long time. And with careful procedures done to prevent the formation of ice crystals, the damage done by the freezing process is minimal. It's by far the best chance you have of surviving.
Actually, it describes several ways in which it does not work.
That was a great albeit CREEPY article, and I say "creepy" for the whole mindset that the cryonics movement is part of. Pieter seemed to be the kind of fellow who would have none of that.
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Maybe we Europeans just have less faith in the goodness of corporations. As it stands, they seem like the perfect opportunity for a scam - they'll freeze you up, then after some years they'll say "unfortunately there's still no cure", and your family can then opt between paying a large annual sum in perpetuity or killing you. While I hope my descendants would have the guts to tell them to burn me up, I can't in good conscience force them to make that choice.
Maybe you should work on making your contract law more trustworthy then, if you think corporations can just randomly decide to extort your family years later.
Kinda hard to ensure it keeps being trustworthy after you're dead.
Also, who said it was random? What if they simply run out of money, for any of the hundreds of reasons why companies do? Laws can't magically force them to keep it running if they literally can't afford to.
Also, who said it was random? What if they simply run out of money, for any of the hundreds of reasons why companies do? Laws can't magically force them to keep it running if they literally can't afford to.
We don't even need to what-if: http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/suspensionfailures.html
All I'm saying is that these scenarios can be sufficiently covered by contracts with the institute you want to preserve you. You can specify that in the unforeseen event of needing more funds to keep you preserved, that you are terminated and buried or cremated in such-and-such fashion without even trying to seek funds from potential relatives or descendants or the government. If contract compliance trust is an issue in Europe, that seems like something to fix first.
All I'm saying is that these scenarios can be sufficiently covered by contracts with the institute you want to preserve you. You can specify that in the unforeseen event of needing more funds to keep you preserved, that you are terminated and buried or cremated in such-and-such fashion without even trying to seek funds from potential relatives or descendants or the government. If contract compliance trust is an issue in Europe, that seems like something to fix first.
It doesn't matter how the contract compliance law works now; it matters how it'll work 20, 40 or 60 years after you're dead. How can you be so sure that a law won't be passed giving the right to the family to override those clauses?
Contract law has had a good run so far, I expect it to continue to have one unless we kill all the lawyers. Even then the concept of a written will is very old.
Maybe I should rephrase my overarching point since it seems to be lost in the details. Concerns over scamming by exploiting family or in general not doing with your remains what you wanted to have done ought to be the least of one's concerns when making a decision on cryonics, unless there's a serious problem with contract law in Europe. I believe Alcor won't even accept you unless you have an official, legal will about it, precisely to defend against family members overriding your decision, since case law on upholding wills is pretty solid. That suddenly changing in 20-60+ years seems pretty unlikely. There are bigger threats to spend more time modeling. Even proponents only estimate around a 5% chance of successfully being revived, were they suspended today (see http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/03/break-cryonics-down.ht...). I don't think anyone who is signed up thinks they have a sure shot at revival, let alone dying in a convenient enough fashion to be usefully preserved, and the two big cryonics orgs in America certainly don't market it that way. The calculation usually goes that for a modest monthly payment on a life insurance plan covering ~$80k, you have a small chance of cheating death, versus having no chance (barring truly magic-like powers like reconstructing you from others' memories/dna/browser history/etc.) if you die and get buried or cremated the normal way.
Maybe I should rephrase my overarching point since it seems to be lost in the details. Concerns over scamming by exploiting family or in general not doing with your remains what you wanted to have done ought to be the least of one's concerns when making a decision on cryonics, unless there's a serious problem with contract law in Europe. I believe Alcor won't even accept you unless you have an official, legal will about it, precisely to defend against family members overriding your decision, since case law on upholding wills is pretty solid. That suddenly changing in 20-60+ years seems pretty unlikely. There are bigger threats to spend more time modeling. Even proponents only estimate around a 5% chance of successfully being revived, were they suspended today (see http://www.overcomingbias.com/2009/03/break-cryonics-down.ht...). I don't think anyone who is signed up thinks they have a sure shot at revival, let alone dying in a convenient enough fashion to be usefully preserved, and the two big cryonics orgs in America certainly don't market it that way. The calculation usually goes that for a modest monthly payment on a life insurance plan covering ~$80k, you have a small chance of cheating death, versus having no chance (barring truly magic-like powers like reconstructing you from others' memories/dna/browser history/etc.) if you die and get buried or cremated the normal way.
All cryonics do is a pseudo-scientific embalming process.
Personally, I find it much likelier that the current service providers screw up the process than that in the future we could not somehow bring people back to life.
The current actual scientific state of the art in cryopreservation deals with something far more simple than a human being http://www.nature.com/articles/srep18816
I'm all up for it once it gets some scientific credibility.
Personally, I find it much likelier that the current service providers screw up the process than that in the future we could not somehow bring people back to life.
The current actual scientific state of the art in cryopreservation deals with something far more simple than a human being http://www.nature.com/articles/srep18816
I'm all up for it once it gets some scientific credibility.
And again others just accept that their death will have come to them, they’ll sort their lives out, tie up loose ends, and, feeling they’ve done everything worth doing, having lived a fulfilling life, just embrace death.
Cryonics is a very risky, and, with current technology, likely unreversable procedure, so relying on it to tie up your loose ends someday is silly. It’s almost religious in the unreasonable belief that someone higher – here "future humanity" – will be able to help you.
Cryonics is a very risky, and, with current technology, likely unreversable procedure, so relying on it to tie up your loose ends someday is silly. It’s almost religious in the unreasonable belief that someone higher – here "future humanity" – will be able to help you.
I think a "secular religion" is exactly the best frame through which to understand transhumanism.
Because he wants to depart with dignity? Currently at least cryonics don't seem to be any better than a scam (google alcor scam for references).
Because he doesn't believe in pseudo-scientific voodoo.
Because he didn't have billions and prefers that his money is spent on a future for his three children. His cancer was rare, so he donated his body to science, in the hope it might save people from what he had to endure. (In private he told me it also saves the costs of a funeral. That's Pieter for you ;-)
Because it's low-status and unfashionable.
Better to be dead forever and never have a shred of hope than look like a fool for actually trying something.
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In the past few months I have been almost obsessed with consuming everything he wrote and published. It is exactly my way of thinking. Of questioning reality and turning it upside down so it works even better.
I will miss him. And I will continue to learn from him. We all knew this was going to happen, he was most transparent in keeping us informed about it. So I am sad, yes. But I am also immensely grateful and positive.
Pieter, it was an honour and a privilege to have shared time with you. Peace for you.