Ask HN: Should I move to Berlin?
79 comments
Some negative sides that a bit ruined Berlin for me:
don't speak German? -> you'll receive bad service almost everywhere -> you won't get in to a lot of good clubs etc.
don't look like German? -> you'll get stares -> you'll be second rate / tourist / something
like drugs? like to party from 01AM to the afternoon of the next day? -> you'll love it
like sightseeing / going to the "best" places? -> everything's spread around a pretty big area -> you'll take the train / taxi / bus pretty often
like pretty buildings? -> in general, Berlin is ugly and crude. Except for the rich people areas and some places in downtown.
Partying two days without sleeping in the same club with a wide variety of substances is normal. There are weird sex club party thingies. There are ug techno parties with all kinds of debauchery. There are parks with more drug dealers than other people. Definitely not conservative, but somewhat xenophobic.
don't speak German? -> you'll receive bad service almost everywhere -> you won't get in to a lot of good clubs etc.
don't look like German? -> you'll get stares -> you'll be second rate / tourist / something
like drugs? like to party from 01AM to the afternoon of the next day? -> you'll love it
like sightseeing / going to the "best" places? -> everything's spread around a pretty big area -> you'll take the train / taxi / bus pretty often
like pretty buildings? -> in general, Berlin is ugly and crude. Except for the rich people areas and some places in downtown.
Partying two days without sleeping in the same club with a wide variety of substances is normal. There are weird sex club party thingies. There are ug techno parties with all kinds of debauchery. There are parks with more drug dealers than other people. Definitely not conservative, but somewhat xenophobic.
> don't look like German? -> you'll get stares -> you'll be second rate / tourist / something
I don't look German at all and have been living in berlin for 10 years. Never had this feeling.
...that being said, I'm Spanish and am sure that a guy from Pakistan will sadly get more looks, so YMMV.
And as for the city, came on! Berlin is so much more than clubs and drugs.
Berlin has a vibrant tech culture with user groups, meetups, conferences and hack groups. Probably the biggest scene in Europe.
Berlin has a cultural offer second to no other in the world. If you really like a band and want to watch them live, just wait and they'll come over.
Whatever you enjoy, you can find it in Berlin. Period.
Reducing Berlin to just clubs and drugs is absolutely ridiculous.
I don't look German at all and have been living in berlin for 10 years. Never had this feeling.
...that being said, I'm Spanish and am sure that a guy from Pakistan will sadly get more looks, so YMMV.
And as for the city, came on! Berlin is so much more than clubs and drugs.
Berlin has a vibrant tech culture with user groups, meetups, conferences and hack groups. Probably the biggest scene in Europe.
Berlin has a cultural offer second to no other in the world. If you really like a band and want to watch them live, just wait and they'll come over.
Whatever you enjoy, you can find it in Berlin. Period.
Reducing Berlin to just clubs and drugs is absolutely ridiculous.
100% agree. Living in berlin for 4 years and I was shocked reading that comment.
How would you compare Berlin to Barcelona or Madrid?
Berlin is larger and a bit more cosmopolitan.
Spain has obviously better weather, that's a thing I miss from Spain.
The salaries are better in Germany, and I would say the working conditions are also better.
That's of course all my anecdotal experience, so YMMV. All but the weather.
Spain has obviously better weather, that's a thing I miss from Spain.
The salaries are better in Germany, and I would say the working conditions are also better.
That's of course all my anecdotal experience, so YMMV. All but the weather.
My anecdotal experience says high tech salaries are the same in Barca. Considering lower tax in Spain, net is better.
Barca = Berlin - social welfare layer + great weather
Barca = Premium Berlin
Barca = Premium Berlin
As I know social system (at least healthcare) is quite good in Catalonia (and maybe also in Spain in general?). What does it missing from Berlin's one?
> don't speak German? -> you'll receive bad service almost everywhere -> you won't get in to a lot of good clubs etc.
> don't look like German? -> you'll get stares -> you'll be second rate / tourist / something
That depends on the corner of Berlin though.
There are plenty of user groups, technical meetups, hackerspaces, makerspaces:
c-base, Chaos Computer Club, Linux User Groups, JavaScript/Python/Haskell/PHP/... User Groups, Free Software Foundation local group, Wikipedia/Wikimedia stuff, Makerspaces, ...
Every evening more than one to choose from.
At those place - essentially, at every slightly nerdy place - everybody will try their best to talk to English with you, or the meetup will have English language and presentations in the first place, anyway. And people from different corners of the world are seen there as enriching and interesting people to talk with.
> don't look like German? -> you'll get stares -> you'll be second rate / tourist / something
That depends on the corner of Berlin though.
There are plenty of user groups, technical meetups, hackerspaces, makerspaces:
c-base, Chaos Computer Club, Linux User Groups, JavaScript/Python/Haskell/PHP/... User Groups, Free Software Foundation local group, Wikipedia/Wikimedia stuff, Makerspaces, ...
Every evening more than one to choose from.
At those place - essentially, at every slightly nerdy place - everybody will try their best to talk to English with you, or the meetup will have English language and presentations in the first place, anyway. And people from different corners of the world are seen there as enriching and interesting people to talk with.
I don't look German, speak German or do clubbing. My experience in Berlin has always been pleasant. I find Berliners (especially the under 35s) welcoming and friendly for the most part. Warm even.. in their odd German way.
Ymmv
Ymmv
German here, living abroad.
- 5k/month -> 60k/year sounds reasonable in general. You might be able to get more, but honestly I don't think that's a bad salary for programming position. Tax sounds about right.
- 24 days of leave seems on the low side of things. I'd expect 28-30 OR more pay. I had 30 in Germany.
- 1500 for the relocation seems low as well. What are you supposed to pay for with that? Flight is covered by the company? What about housing (usually you have 1-2 month of rent to deposit, that might eat a large chunk of this amount already)?
Can't comment on the neighborhood or the current cost of living situation in Berlin, but I feel that I'd stay in Dubai if I were in your shoes. You earn quite a lot of money for later - 12*4k + 5k means that you basically nearly save all the money Germany offers before taxes. You are happy at your company. You fly home for free - no idea how expensive flights between Dubai and Pakistan are, for me this is quite expensive (Singapore -> Germany).
Let me turn this question around: What is it that you _like_ about the offer? Just getting out of "Can never stay forever" Dubai/a different tech zone alone or is the job/location itself interesting?
- 5k/month -> 60k/year sounds reasonable in general. You might be able to get more, but honestly I don't think that's a bad salary for programming position. Tax sounds about right.
- 24 days of leave seems on the low side of things. I'd expect 28-30 OR more pay. I had 30 in Germany.
- 1500 for the relocation seems low as well. What are you supposed to pay for with that? Flight is covered by the company? What about housing (usually you have 1-2 month of rent to deposit, that might eat a large chunk of this amount already)?
Can't comment on the neighborhood or the current cost of living situation in Berlin, but I feel that I'd stay in Dubai if I were in your shoes. You earn quite a lot of money for later - 12*4k + 5k means that you basically nearly save all the money Germany offers before taxes. You are happy at your company. You fly home for free - no idea how expensive flights between Dubai and Pakistan are, for me this is quite expensive (Singapore -> Germany).
Let me turn this question around: What is it that you _like_ about the offer? Just getting out of "Can never stay forever" Dubai/a different tech zone alone or is the job/location itself interesting?
As far as vacation, it sounds normal (maybe a little low) for Berlin. Berlin has just 20 days by law. 25-27 is normal, I’d say. I’ve also never heard of getting a flight home every year in Germany, but it may be more prevalent in Dubai because there are so many foreign workers.
- Permanent residency in Germany after 3 years (what I have heard, if I learn German or 5 if not)
- The tech scene, lots of meetups and exposure
- Lots of big companies and startups
to name a few.
- The tech scene, lots of meetups and exposure
- Lots of big companies and startups
to name a few.
it is know as blue card(Skilled Worker).
21 months + good german -> PR
33 months + a bit of german -> PR
21 months + good german -> PR
33 months + a bit of german -> PR
Have you actually been to Berlin or Germany in general before? Do you like it? Or is it because Merkel welcomes every foreigner currently... There are other cities in Europe that have a better tech scene compared to Berlin.
I live in Berlin. I would say, money is not why you would want to move to Germany. It's social & medical insurance/stability/security.
I've been to Dubai for vacation, and I found it pretty boring TBH. In Europe you'll have more opportunities to find something interesting, even if now you're a type of guy who would spend much of his time in front of the laptop. Maybe that's because there is just boring in Dubai?
I've been to Dubai for vacation, and I found it pretty boring TBH. In Europe you'll have more opportunities to find something interesting, even if now you're a type of guy who would spend much of his time in front of the laptop. Maybe that's because there is just boring in Dubai?
Can second that part about stability/security. Especially if you plan long-term (i.e. don't intend to stay single forever). You get (mostly) free health-care, child-care, education for your children, including studying almost for free at universities. State pays compensation for young parents that take off from work for up to 1 year etc.
So there usually is no need at all to save a lot of money just in case, which makes the high tax rate pretty bearable.
So there usually is no need at all to save a lot of money just in case, which makes the high tax rate pretty bearable.
I would say, money is not why you would want to move to Germany. It's social & medical insurance/stability/security.
Comparing salary plus benefits is really hard. OP should try to put a number on the value of health insurance etc in Germany.
Comparing salary plus benefits is really hard. OP should try to put a number on the value of health insurance etc in Germany.
I was exactly in the same situation 2 years back and instead of Dubai I was in Lahore, Pakistan. I got offer from Berlin and I was offered I believe 4500 Euros/month and I posted on Hacker News too look at that thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10602867 ( Ask HN: Full Stack developer offer from Berlin )
I didn't move to Berlin and my reasons were little different. If I were to suggest you I would say move to Berlin and the strongest point is you can get National there with in 3 to 4 years. second strong point is Berlin is turning into European Tech Hub exposure you can get while living Berlin you can't get in Dubai.
Go to Berlin ;)
I didn't move to Berlin and my reasons were little different. If I were to suggest you I would say move to Berlin and the strongest point is you can get National there with in 3 to 4 years. second strong point is Berlin is turning into European Tech Hub exposure you can get while living Berlin you can't get in Dubai.
Go to Berlin ;)
I lived in Berlin for 9 months and it was an awesome place to be. I quite enjoyed the nightlife there too :)
For apartment, prepare to spend around €800 peek around here:
http://www.wg-gesucht.de/wg-zimmer-in-Berlin.8.0.1.0.html
Monthly expenses for food, drinks, socializing would be anywhere between €300 - €600
Try to calculate your net salary:
http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htmt
On 2900 net, I'm not sure if I moved there although I lived on significantly less money :)
For apartment, prepare to spend around €800 peek around here:
http://www.wg-gesucht.de/wg-zimmer-in-Berlin.8.0.1.0.html
Monthly expenses for food, drinks, socializing would be anywhere between €300 - €600
Try to calculate your net salary:
http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htmt
On 2900 net, I'm not sure if I moved there although I lived on significantly less money :)
For curiosity, I just run a Dubai vs Berlin cost-of-living comparison in Numbeo and I think housing is the factor that makes Berlin cheaper than Dubai (about 50% less).
In my opinion, Berlin is a much better place (even with that weather) than Dubai except if you are Java engineer with interest in banking apps like Murex/Calypso/etc. If that's your case, stay in Dubai or switch to Singapore in the next 2-4 years. After that period, you can fly to whenever you like in Europe working in the bank and place you want.
In my opinion, Berlin is a much better place (even with that weather) than Dubai except if you are Java engineer with interest in banking apps like Murex/Calypso/etc. If that's your case, stay in Dubai or switch to Singapore in the next 2-4 years. After that period, you can fly to whenever you like in Europe working in the bank and place you want.
Numbeo is an important site to keep in mind. It really makes a difference in decision making what the goals are :) Berlin is an interesting, exciting city with lots of potential. I have a friend who lived in Dubai for 10 years and he now moves back to Hungary. Another friend left Dubai after a few months, he said that place is nuts.
Your net salary would be about 2900 euro monthly.
Then you'd need to pay for an appartment, it would be at least 400-500 euro.
Then you have to eat and sometimes buy new clothes since it's a cold country :) This would cost you maybe another 500 euro.
So you could save about 2000 euro each month.
If it's a startup, I'd think twice. There's no guarantee that you'll be happy at the new company, especially if it is not profitable.
Bureaucratic stuff can take time in Germany. Learning the language can challenging. The language schools have very different quality of teaching.
London has a much larger population of immigrants from the Middle East. So if your prospective employer in Berlin had a London office, or business ties to the UK, that would be a plus.
Bureaucratic stuff can take time in Germany. Learning the language can challenging. The language schools have very different quality of teaching.
London has a much larger population of immigrants from the Middle East. So if your prospective employer in Berlin had a London office, or business ties to the UK, that would be a plus.
Two things to consider is that: if you're planning to move for to Germany long-term, you could aim for citizenship in a few years giving you easy EU access (+ many other countries). On the other hand, Germany is one of the annoying countries which don't do dual citizenships - you could be forced to drop the Pakistani one. (not the case for the UK, for example)
> - 24 holidays per year
This is the minimum you have to get for full-time employment in Germany. In many companies you can negotiate more. (worth noting for the future)
I don't know much about Dubai, but from what I understand you'd also have much more to do in Germany. Easier travel to interesting places as well, since you can't throw a rock around there without hitting something historic.
> - 24 holidays per year
This is the minimum you have to get for full-time employment in Germany. In many companies you can negotiate more. (worth noting for the future)
I don't know much about Dubai, but from what I understand you'd also have much more to do in Germany. Easier travel to interesting places as well, since you can't throw a rock around there without hitting something historic.
20 days are minimum. 24 only applies when you're working 6 days/week.
Generally, I'd expect 30 days. That's still the norm.
24 screams "startup" or "we struggled to offer that salary, so we're compensating with less holiday".
Generally, I'd expect 30 days. That's still the norm.
24 screams "startup" or "we struggled to offer that salary, so we're compensating with less holiday".
ebay gives ~ 24 days
> I am a single person, a typical guy, no girlfriend, no night life, spend most of my time on my laptop hacking around. And most of the time, all I need is food and bed. Considering all of that, in a salary of 5000 Euros per month, how much could I save per month after my food and rent expenditures?
I'm mostly the same, and live in a medium-sized city near Berlin (Dresden). For your reference, my monthly costs are around 1200 € per month, breaking down as follows (all numbers monthly):
- rent and utilities: 420€ (for a 50 sqm apartment)
- internet: 40€ (100 Mib/s, including landline)
- TV: 25€ (most of it is the mandatory fee for public broadcasting)
- cellphone: 10€ (1 GiB monthly allowance)
- voluntary insurances: 80€ (mostly disability insurance; not including health and unemployment insurance since those are deducted from the salary before I get the payout)
- public transit pass: 50€ (valid for all modes of public transport across the entire town; I don't own a car)
- food: 300€ (I could cut a good third of that if I pre-cooked my lunch at home instead of going to restaurants for lunch with my colleagues)
The rest is small stuff (homewares, drugstore items, medicine), entertainment expenses (cinema ticket, train ticket to a hiking spot, etc.), and a monthly donation of 100 € to my local hackerspace. If I had to, I could cut the donation and the expensive lunches and go down to ~1000€ per month immediately.
But that's Dresden, not Berlin. The rent is bound to be much higher in Berlin (at least per sqm; you might find something under 500€ if you really compromise on space, but actual Berliners can tell you more about this line item than I can). Also, public transit is more expensive in Berlin because of the larger tariff zones. AFAIK, a month pass for Berlin public transit would set you back around 100€. The other expenses should be nearly identical. My educated guess for cost of living in Berlin at my standard (which presumably is somewhere around yours) is 1500€ per month.
Maybe add another 100€ for evening classes in German language, which I would definitely recommend if you're staying longer than a few months.
I'm mostly the same, and live in a medium-sized city near Berlin (Dresden). For your reference, my monthly costs are around 1200 € per month, breaking down as follows (all numbers monthly):
- rent and utilities: 420€ (for a 50 sqm apartment)
- internet: 40€ (100 Mib/s, including landline)
- TV: 25€ (most of it is the mandatory fee for public broadcasting)
- cellphone: 10€ (1 GiB monthly allowance)
- voluntary insurances: 80€ (mostly disability insurance; not including health and unemployment insurance since those are deducted from the salary before I get the payout)
- public transit pass: 50€ (valid for all modes of public transport across the entire town; I don't own a car)
- food: 300€ (I could cut a good third of that if I pre-cooked my lunch at home instead of going to restaurants for lunch with my colleagues)
The rest is small stuff (homewares, drugstore items, medicine), entertainment expenses (cinema ticket, train ticket to a hiking spot, etc.), and a monthly donation of 100 € to my local hackerspace. If I had to, I could cut the donation and the expensive lunches and go down to ~1000€ per month immediately.
But that's Dresden, not Berlin. The rent is bound to be much higher in Berlin (at least per sqm; you might find something under 500€ if you really compromise on space, but actual Berliners can tell you more about this line item than I can). Also, public transit is more expensive in Berlin because of the larger tariff zones. AFAIK, a month pass for Berlin public transit would set you back around 100€. The other expenses should be nearly identical. My educated guess for cost of living in Berlin at my standard (which presumably is somewhere around yours) is 1500€ per month.
Maybe add another 100€ for evening classes in German language, which I would definitely recommend if you're staying longer than a few months.
Go to germany. Being able to get permanent residency and maybe even becoming a citizen at some point is worth it. You'd become a European on paper, which makes life much easier for you. Do note that you'll have to sit it out for a couple of years before it starts paying off.
As others have mentioned, you'll pay more taxes and you'll be left with less net income, but the amount of social security you get in return is totally worth it. Plus, there's more than enough tech companies in Berlin, so I am sure you can increase your salary over time.
As others have mentioned, you'll pay more taxes and you'll be left with less net income, but the amount of social security you get in return is totally worth it. Plus, there's more than enough tech companies in Berlin, so I am sure you can increase your salary over time.
If you want to build up a future, go to Europe. If you want to earn net more and after working go back to Pakistan. Stay in Dubai.
You can build up a better future in Europe than in Dubai, but there are more taxes.
You can build up a better future in Europe than in Dubai, but there are more taxes.
[deleted]
It's very hard to see a reason for you to move to Berlin. You will gain a net ("in hand") salary much lower than your actual salary because in Europe there's not only the taxes that are deducted from your salary, but also contributions for health assurance, for retirement and for social security (and sometimes many other "small" things). All these things can add up to ~50% of your salary. And see this: " People earning more than EUR 52,882 per year are subject to a tax rate of 42%." and "In addition to Lohnsteuer, you have to pay the so-called solidarity surcharge (5.5% of your income tax)".
from here: https://www.internations.org/germany-expats/guide/15984-soci...
If I were you, I wouldn't move.
from here: https://www.internations.org/germany-expats/guide/15984-soci...
If I were you, I wouldn't move.
No, I think the 42% tax-rate is kind of a differential: i.e. any additional EUR you get is taxed by 42%, but the euros below 52,882 € are taxed by less.
Running the tax calculator here:
http://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/
it says you get 3.275,61 € after tax for 5000 € / month.
However, that already covers all the insurance costs, health insurance, insurance against loss of employment and pension insurance.
And health insurance in germany is a "real" insurance that won't try to get rid of you in case you get severely ill (cancer etc.). Even includes compensatory payments in case you're unfit for work (although your employer may have the right to terminate you if there is no chance of you recovering)
Running the tax calculator here:
http://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/
it says you get 3.275,61 € after tax for 5000 € / month.
However, that already covers all the insurance costs, health insurance, insurance against loss of employment and pension insurance.
And health insurance in germany is a "real" insurance that won't try to get rid of you in case you get severely ill (cancer etc.). Even includes compensatory payments in case you're unfit for work (although your employer may have the right to terminate you if there is no chance of you recovering)
Still.. going from 4000 to 1500 is hard to justify. Personally I think he will be very disappointed (not only for financial reasons).
Well money isn’t everything. If I were to move to another country/city, I‘d choose Berlin. To me, it’s magic. I just love how at some places trees grow over old buildings, people are very liberal with graffiti (even on purpose), the great bars and places-to-be, open minded people...
I think you didn't read carefully the question.
Moved to Berlin 4 years ago as a software developer under similar conditions like yours.
Things I like: - Berlin is nice city to live in, cheap to transport (bike, shared bikes/cars, nice public transport)
- very cheap and good quality basic groceries - meat, dairies, pastry is really cheap with great basic quality and you can always go for organic and more expensive variants, cheap restaurants and bars, relatively inexpensive housing
- Berlin has decent flight connections around Europe + easily reachable Amsterdam, Prague, Copenhagen by car
- No crazy workaholic culture (nothing compared to the US), lot of holidays and taking a sick leave is easy and covered by law, 8 hours of work per day
- Nice engineering meetups and community
Things I dislike: - getting a decent apartment might be really difficult now days, even more difficult than getting a job
- Berlin is not so visually pleasing
- sometimes it's difficult if you dont speak german well
- winter is not so cold but very dark and grey
Things I like: - Berlin is nice city to live in, cheap to transport (bike, shared bikes/cars, nice public transport)
- very cheap and good quality basic groceries - meat, dairies, pastry is really cheap with great basic quality and you can always go for organic and more expensive variants, cheap restaurants and bars, relatively inexpensive housing
- Berlin has decent flight connections around Europe + easily reachable Amsterdam, Prague, Copenhagen by car
- No crazy workaholic culture (nothing compared to the US), lot of holidays and taking a sick leave is easy and covered by law, 8 hours of work per day
- Nice engineering meetups and community
Things I dislike: - getting a decent apartment might be really difficult now days, even more difficult than getting a job
- Berlin is not so visually pleasing
- sometimes it's difficult if you dont speak german well
- winter is not so cold but very dark and grey
If they pay 5000€ (brutto), you will likely have ~3.200€ (netto) left after tax and social security, retirement payments, and health insurance.
Feel free to play around with http://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info which is of course not 100% accurate but pretty good for estimation.
That being said, 3.2k is a good salary in Germany, and housing in Berlin is not as expensive as in Hamburg or Munich, 1000€ will get you a spacious flat for 1 person, utilities included. Food is cheap in Germany, if you can cook a few hounded € per month are enough.
My guess would be that if you have a decent lifestyle, find a not too pricey flat, you can save between around 1000€ per month.
That being said, 3.2k is a good salary in Germany, and housing in Berlin is not as expensive as in Hamburg or Munich, 1000€ will get you a spacious flat for 1 person, utilities included. Food is cheap in Germany, if you can cook a few hounded € per month are enough.
My guess would be that if you have a decent lifestyle, find a not too pricey flat, you can save between around 1000€ per month.
If you're considering Germany as a place to stay long-time, you should consider two things:
- fluency in German will be a big factor for long-term happiness. Becoming fluent will take a long time.
- Germany (and most of Western Europe) is not the world leader in take-home pay. People here typically spend 25-30% of their income on rent, another 30% on other expenses, and maybe save the rest. Germans are frugal but saving more than 30% is pretty rare for sure. Spending to cover the bare essentials and saving the rest is not a typical way of life here. If you're saving for something big then maybe stay in Dubai or go to, say, Switzerland?
- fluency in German will be a big factor for long-term happiness. Becoming fluent will take a long time.
- Germany (and most of Western Europe) is not the world leader in take-home pay. People here typically spend 25-30% of their income on rent, another 30% on other expenses, and maybe save the rest. Germans are frugal but saving more than 30% is pretty rare for sure. Spending to cover the bare essentials and saving the rest is not a typical way of life here. If you're saving for something big then maybe stay in Dubai or go to, say, Switzerland?
I used to have a similar background (single, no GF, no night life), Indian based in UAE.
I came to London as a developer about 14 years ago! Now married (an Indian), children here, British Citizen, etc. Travel to UAE almost every year en route to India, etc.
My advice: - You are the right age and no responsibility to explore the world, so that is worth considering.
- Also, think long term, you can't make moves everyday. Will you be happy if one thing leads to another and you live in Germany for the rest of your life with children, etc?
- I miss my extended family in the UAE but meet frequently as its much more common for people to fly around these days.
I came to London as a developer about 14 years ago! Now married (an Indian), children here, British Citizen, etc. Travel to UAE almost every year en route to India, etc.
My advice: - You are the right age and no responsibility to explore the world, so that is worth considering.
- Also, think long term, you can't make moves everyday. Will you be happy if one thing leads to another and you live in Germany for the rest of your life with children, etc?
- I miss my extended family in the UAE but meet frequently as its much more common for people to fly around these days.
I am living in Berlin. I would say with 5000 gross income you should be able to save ~1000-1500 Euro in a month. According to http://www.brutto-netto-rechner.info/ you should get ~2917.05 Euro net.
I think with 60k income the taxes are 28%, but there's health insurance and social security insurance, too.
I heard that finding a flat is currently not easy in Berlin. Bergmannstrasse is a lovely "Kiez" (neighborhood).
The scene in Berlin for programmers is nice, lots of meetups (if you are interested in that).
I think with 60k income the taxes are 28%, but there's health insurance and social security insurance, too.
I heard that finding a flat is currently not easy in Berlin. Bergmannstrasse is a lovely "Kiez" (neighborhood).
The scene in Berlin for programmers is nice, lots of meetups (if you are interested in that).
I’ve lived in Dubai for a year as a white person. I hated it, people are very pretentious and pretty much only care about money, I guess that can be expected as that as mostly the reason people go there.. One thing I noticed a lot is the insane work hours Indians go through there, and down right racism, I know that the germans work hard too but quality of life has to be better in Germany.
Even considering all of this you are losing out on a lot of money moving to Berlin. I left Dubai to work remotely in CPH and love it so far
Even considering all of this you are losing out on a lot of money moving to Berlin. I left Dubai to work remotely in CPH and love it so far
5000 euros is just the start. There are plenty of software companies in Europe and lots of opportunities.
Long term pension, medical and schooling for kids, much more stable & much more opportunities than UAE. Taxes pay for themselves. However, in UAE with new vat and growing hidden taxes are high. You can even buy a house and it is like living rent free! The rents in Dubai are high and buying for long term is not recommended.
Longer term you can even look at moving to London if you like to stay in a English speaking country.
Long term pension, medical and schooling for kids, much more stable & much more opportunities than UAE. Taxes pay for themselves. However, in UAE with new vat and growing hidden taxes are high. You can even buy a house and it is like living rent free! The rents in Dubai are high and buying for long term is not recommended.
Longer term you can even look at moving to London if you like to stay in a English speaking country.
I would move to Berlin. Granted, you'll earn less, but you'll get a much better quality of life for what you're making. Berlin is a very vibrant and lively city with friendly people. Rent is relatively cheap, compared to Munich, Amsterdam, Dublin or London. Costs of living are again quite low.
I'd move at least for a change of scenery and cultural experience. After all, you're not a tree, you don't have roots, if you don't like it in Berlin, move on.
I moved to Berlin a couple of months ago, here are some points you might want to think about:
- Berlin is a beautiful city; a lot of parks and stuff to do. I personally spend more time outside.
- You would move to Berlin to live a happier life, not for making a shit-ton of money.
- your salary is in the low/mid side of Seniors, they usually make 55-70K brutto, but not a bad one to start with IMHO.
- Expect to search for flat for at least 3-4 weeks, Berlin's housing space is complicated currently.
- Berlin is a beautiful city; a lot of parks and stuff to do. I personally spend more time outside.
- You would move to Berlin to live a happier life, not for making a shit-ton of money.
- your salary is in the low/mid side of Seniors, they usually make 55-70K brutto, but not a bad one to start with IMHO.
- Expect to search for flat for at least 3-4 weeks, Berlin's housing space is complicated currently.
You are the only person who can make this decision. Money-wise, you'll be worse. But the big question is: Do you want to live the rest of your life in Berlin? That's all you need to answer. The way to get there is not really important. You just jump on the first good opportunity that jumps on you.
Do you like Berlin? Do you see yourself there? Do you want to live in the EU? Are you comfortable with the culture?
Do you like Berlin? Do you see yourself there? Do you want to live in the EU? Are you comfortable with the culture?
tl;dr yes you absolutely should
Yes you should move to Berlin if you have the chance to get permanent residency or even the citizenship. If you live in Germany, you live in Europe and can relocate to another country within the EU easily. The German citizenship is THE most valuable in the world ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/lists/most-powerful-passpo... ). The German economy is one of the strongest in the world. You'll live in a free, welcoming and open democracy. I wouldn't care so much about the perks, but about the fact that you're in the EU, and specifically in Germany.
ps: If you got so far to get a job offer with relocation in Germany, you'll also easily find another job here. Maybe not in Berlin, but Munich for example has all the big names: Google, Microsoft, IBM, Autodesk, Salesforce, (the list goes on and is really long).
Yes you should move to Berlin if you have the chance to get permanent residency or even the citizenship. If you live in Germany, you live in Europe and can relocate to another country within the EU easily. The German citizenship is THE most valuable in the world ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/lists/most-powerful-passpo... ). The German economy is one of the strongest in the world. You'll live in a free, welcoming and open democracy. I wouldn't care so much about the perks, but about the fact that you're in the EU, and specifically in Germany.
ps: If you got so far to get a job offer with relocation in Germany, you'll also easily find another job here. Maybe not in Berlin, but Munich for example has all the big names: Google, Microsoft, IBM, Autodesk, Salesforce, (the list goes on and is really long).
A passport that lets you visit the most countries != the most valuable citizenship. Might be wrong, but doubt many would pick a German citizenship over an American.
Depends on your plan for life.
Do you want to become financially independent, move back to Pakistan, and retire early? A couple of years in Dubai seems like a good choice.
Do you want to move to Europe for its infrastructure, healthcare, culture, etc? Berlin is great!
Do you want to become financially independent, move back to Pakistan, and retire early? A couple of years in Dubai seems like a good choice.
Do you want to move to Europe for its infrastructure, healthcare, culture, etc? Berlin is great!
Berlin is way better than Dubai. Berlin has more atmosphere and is not that "american" like Dubai. Berlin has a big developer scene and millions of startups and meetups. But remember, weather is not that nice in Germany :D
If you are not interested in drinking then opportunities for socializing in Berlin may be a bit limited. They are also very big on pork and ham. Germany is a very stable but also a very conservative country. While Berlin is the least conservative part, you will find that the upper echelons of society in terms of net worth tend to be exceptionally conservative. If you do not learn German, opportunities for economic and social advancement may be limited. If you like sun, you will find Germany depressing. In short, it will be hard to move there. If you want stability it is a good option, and besides Europe is simply beautiful. However, it will be hard work and a long term commitment. In your position, I would trade income for residency, stability and access to Europe. You can always move again after your goals are achieved.
Never been to Dubaï but I have visited Berlin many times. Didn't like it much. The weather is horrible 9 months of the year. People are mostly very nice, but many don't speak English, so learning German would be a necessity in order to fit in -- even for grocery shopping.
That said, it's a gateway to Europe; if you can somehow get a working permit valid in all of Europe, or a path to citizenship, that would be a fantastic opportunity.
That said, it's a gateway to Europe; if you can somehow get a working permit valid in all of Europe, or a path to citizenship, that would be a fantastic opportunity.
- after tax, social security and mandatory health insurance, you will keep around 50% of your gross income
- apartment will be around € 600-700 now (1-2 rooms in a "hip", central location like Kreuzberg, Friedrichshain, Neukölln)
- it's a quite multicultural city, with lot's interesting live styles and culture
- it's a democratic, stable country with a generally functioning law and state
- the weather is cold and rainy especially from November to May
- it's way up north, so less light in winter, more in summer
I would prefer Berlin to Dubai, but I am a Berliner, so ...
- apartment will be around € 600-700 now (1-2 rooms in a "hip", central location like Kreuzberg, Friedrichshain, Neukölln)
- it's a quite multicultural city, with lot's interesting live styles and culture
- it's a democratic, stable country with a generally functioning law and state
- the weather is cold and rainy especially from November to May
- it's way up north, so less light in winter, more in summer
I would prefer Berlin to Dubai, but I am a Berliner, so ...
>in a salary of 5000 Euros per month, how much could I save per month after my food and rent expenditures?
You'll have around 2900 after taxes, and you'll probably spend around 1500 for the normal cost of living (apartment, food, etc). However this varies a lot from person to person, for example sharing an apartment is way cheaper. Rent prices vary by location, and so on.
I'd suggest visiting Germany and seeing if it's something you'll like, the culture, the language, and so on.
You'll have around 2900 after taxes, and you'll probably spend around 1500 for the normal cost of living (apartment, food, etc). However this varies a lot from person to person, for example sharing an apartment is way cheaper. Rent prices vary by location, and so on.
I'd suggest visiting Germany and seeing if it's something you'll like, the culture, the language, and so on.
Dubai has no Berghain, decision is obvious.
Which is the more truthful statement for you?
A.) I want to live in Berlin B.) I do not want to live in Dubai
A.) I want to live in Berlin B.) I do not want to live in Dubai
Does Berlin give you permanent residency ?
As a well earning IT professional you should be able to apply for the so called blue card. http://www.bluecard-eu.de/
bluecard is a very easy way to permanent residency in 1-2 years, but only if you studied in Germany or Europe.
The Blue Card allows you got get permanent residency in 21 months if you speak basic German (B1) regardless of where you studied. And in any case you'll still get permanent residency after 33 months with A1 German
Berlin doesn't give permanent residency per se but Germany does. You can apply for permanent residency with Berlin as your home but it'd be valid around all of Germany.
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If you are young and healthy, stay in Dubai, pocket the money, and stay sharp on your skills. Then in a few years, reevaluate.
You might wanna remove the specific office address and just describe the area, to keep the offer private :)
Note that I can't directly compare the two since I haven't been to Dubai, but I have been to Berlin and am moving there soon, also for work, and I've researched the Berlin side of things extensively.
As far as the offer goes, I would argue for, in order, 1) more holiday; 2) slightly more pay (maybe 2k Euros per year); 3) more on the relocation if it is a lump sum; 4) more for educational budget. For a senior position, the salary is decent (from my understanding at or above market rate) but the vacation is slightly low (only 4 days above the statutory minimum). On the relocation negotiation, if they don't offer a lump sum, it's probably not worth to negotiate unless you have a lot of things to move. I've never heard of a company offering a flight back every year so it's unlikely it would be offered directly.
As far as saving and money, you can realistically find an apartment by yourself in a nicer part of town for no more than €900-1000 warm per month, but you can definitely save money if you live with a flatmate, live further away, or get a smaller flat. After taxes you'd probably take home about €3000, which means if you had the more lavish flat, you would have €2000 for food, transit, etc. My understanding is that Berlin is relatively cheap for food, so you would struggle to spend more than €500-600 per month even if you ate out often, and you would of course spend less if you cooked your own food. Being conservative and saying you spend €1000 per month on all of your expenditures, you could look at saving, minimum, €1000 per month. If you live frugally you could definitely save more, but with a €5000 per month salary it's going to be impossible to save €4000 per month due to taxes. If saving significantly is very important to you, it would be really bothersome for you.
As far as comparing living in the two places, a lot of other commenters have mentioned about residency, in that if you're university educated, you can get the Blue Card and get permanent residency within 3 years. If you don't have a degree, I think you can get it in 5 (possibly expedited if you can speak German well). Berlin is also quite diverse for Germany, and likely has more job opportunities than Dubai as it doesn't stick to large corporations and the financial sector, especially if you already have experience in Berlin as they won't have to deal with the documents for visa purposes and you would have a better understanding of "how German companies work". The job security in Germany is very high, insofar that it's really difficult to get fired after the initial six months of your contract, but you must also give 3 months notice to your company when you want to leave. Berlin is also quite easy to travel from and to in Europe, via train, bus, and flight, although I understand that Dubai is easy to travel around central Asia and western Europe, so it might be a wash, and maybe a negative in your case since you'll likely be flying further to go back home. Berlin likely has a lot more meetups and networking, and you can use your education budget for conference(s) for networking as well.
Overall, the offer sounds decent (better if you can negotiate), and if you find Berlin more appealing than Dubai I would go for the offer and the opportunity to move. Just keep in mind your priorities (seems the bigger ones are saving and residency, but there must be others you didn't mention) when making the decision, since you are content at your current job and it would be a big move.
As far as the offer goes, I would argue for, in order, 1) more holiday; 2) slightly more pay (maybe 2k Euros per year); 3) more on the relocation if it is a lump sum; 4) more for educational budget. For a senior position, the salary is decent (from my understanding at or above market rate) but the vacation is slightly low (only 4 days above the statutory minimum). On the relocation negotiation, if they don't offer a lump sum, it's probably not worth to negotiate unless you have a lot of things to move. I've never heard of a company offering a flight back every year so it's unlikely it would be offered directly.
As far as saving and money, you can realistically find an apartment by yourself in a nicer part of town for no more than €900-1000 warm per month, but you can definitely save money if you live with a flatmate, live further away, or get a smaller flat. After taxes you'd probably take home about €3000, which means if you had the more lavish flat, you would have €2000 for food, transit, etc. My understanding is that Berlin is relatively cheap for food, so you would struggle to spend more than €500-600 per month even if you ate out often, and you would of course spend less if you cooked your own food. Being conservative and saying you spend €1000 per month on all of your expenditures, you could look at saving, minimum, €1000 per month. If you live frugally you could definitely save more, but with a €5000 per month salary it's going to be impossible to save €4000 per month due to taxes. If saving significantly is very important to you, it would be really bothersome for you.
As far as comparing living in the two places, a lot of other commenters have mentioned about residency, in that if you're university educated, you can get the Blue Card and get permanent residency within 3 years. If you don't have a degree, I think you can get it in 5 (possibly expedited if you can speak German well). Berlin is also quite diverse for Germany, and likely has more job opportunities than Dubai as it doesn't stick to large corporations and the financial sector, especially if you already have experience in Berlin as they won't have to deal with the documents for visa purposes and you would have a better understanding of "how German companies work". The job security in Germany is very high, insofar that it's really difficult to get fired after the initial six months of your contract, but you must also give 3 months notice to your company when you want to leave. Berlin is also quite easy to travel from and to in Europe, via train, bus, and flight, although I understand that Dubai is easy to travel around central Asia and western Europe, so it might be a wash, and maybe a negative in your case since you'll likely be flying further to go back home. Berlin likely has a lot more meetups and networking, and you can use your education budget for conference(s) for networking as well.
Overall, the offer sounds decent (better if you can negotiate), and if you find Berlin more appealing than Dubai I would go for the offer and the opportunity to move. Just keep in mind your priorities (seems the bigger ones are saving and residency, but there must be others you didn't mention) when making the decision, since you are content at your current job and it would be a big move.
As an American who moved to Prague, I'd say that those taxes pay for themselves in terms of quality of life and social insurance. Having so many beautiful parks and so much culture right in the city so few minutes away by tram is worth way more than owning a big house. I think of it like this: I can either live in America and have a big living room, or I can live in Europe and have an entire city as my living room.
You'd have to go to Berlin to see what I mean.
You'd have to go to Berlin to see what I mean.
You also need to save "less" (compared to the US) because certain services are covered through tax.
I'd say go to Berlin. There is a security for you and yours in a country like Germany that no amount of money can buy in a place like Dubai.
I wish I could explain it better, but my family is a migrant family from the Caribbean to the USA and their move involved costs/benefits similar to yours, and that's my overall impression.
I wish I could explain it better, but my family is a migrant family from the Caribbean to the USA and their move involved costs/benefits similar to yours, and that's my overall impression.
The total tax burden for well-earned singles is rather roughly. 50%. After you can deduct some lump sums from your tax, we expect 40% for the tax. However, since you also have an employee's share of the health insurance, you should stay at 50% for the time being.
A small apartment, or a room is around 400 EUR warm if you have little claim to location and equipment. Find out more at immonet. de. The user interface is simple and even if you don't know German, you should be able to use it.
The cost of living for a geek who lives sparingly would be 400 EUR per month. Insurance and miscellaneous costs 150 EUR.
Leaves you with 5000 * 0,5 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 150 = 1550 EUR should be doable as a monthly saving. With a buffer, a monthly saving of 1400 EUR should be possible.
60000 EUR annual salary is ok for the beginning. If you perform well, you should earn a six-digit salary as a Senior Software Engineer, especially in Hamburg, Munich and Düsseldorf. To do this, however, you would have to set the right course at your first job in Germany and not start with less than 75,000.
A small apartment, or a room is around 400 EUR warm if you have little claim to location and equipment. Find out more at immonet. de. The user interface is simple and even if you don't know German, you should be able to use it.
The cost of living for a geek who lives sparingly would be 400 EUR per month. Insurance and miscellaneous costs 150 EUR.
Leaves you with 5000 * 0,5 - 400 - 400 - 400 - 150 = 1550 EUR should be doable as a monthly saving. With a buffer, a monthly saving of 1400 EUR should be possible.
60000 EUR annual salary is ok for the beginning. If you perform well, you should earn a six-digit salary as a Senior Software Engineer, especially in Hamburg, Munich and Düsseldorf. To do this, however, you would have to set the right course at your first job in Germany and not start with less than 75,000.
Is a six-digit salary for a senior software engineer a realistic expectation? I thought that was only common in SV and NY.
I don’t know a single non team lead SWE in Germany earning six digits. And most find it quite difficult to go higher 60k
- 5000 Euros/month salary (I have been told that there is 38% tax, not sure if it is more)
- 24 holidays per year
- No ticket back home yearly
- 1500 euros for relocation
- 800 euros yearly educational budget
For my current position I am getting following
- Getting almost same salary (but it is tax free and I save around 4000 euros per month)
- 13 salaries in year
- 24 holidays
- Ticket back home yearly
Given that, I am happy at my current company. My only concern about Dubai is
- You can stay here in Dubai as long as you want but you will never get the permanent residency
- There are small number of good companies so I am not sure about the future here in Dubai if I ever have to leave my current company.
Having looked at the comparison above, if you weigh the pros and cons between Dubai and Berlin, would you recommend me to accept the offer? I don't know much about Berlin, could anyone please tell me how much could I save with 5000 Euros a month of salary
I am really confused and would love to know what would you recommend given your experience in Berlin Germany?
PS. I am a single person, a typical guy, no girlfriend, no night life, spend most of my time on my laptop hacking around. And most of the time, all I need is food and bed. Considering all of that, in a salary of 5000 Euros per month, how much could I save per month after my food and rent expenditures?