Smart TVs Track More Than What’s on Tonight(mobile.nytimes.com)
mobile.nytimes.com
Smart TVs Track More Than What’s on Tonight
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/07/05/business/media/tv-viewer-tracking.html
138 comments
never use any of the online features of their "Smart" TV
Good thing you have a Samsung.
If you had a Sony, you wouldn't even be able to use the Antenna input. In past years Sony pushed over-the-air updates to their TVs. I think they piggybacked local PBS stations for this.
I don't know if Sony still does this. I didn't search too hard, but here's an note from 2015 acknowledging what happens: https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00008947
key text is:
Good thing you have a Samsung.
If you had a Sony, you wouldn't even be able to use the Antenna input. In past years Sony pushed over-the-air updates to their TVs. I think they piggybacked local PBS stations for this.
I don't know if Sony still does this. I didn't search too hard, but here's an note from 2015 acknowledging what happens: https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00008947
key text is:
The update is received directly
from an over-the-air broadcast.That's a one way communication, there's no way for the TV to send information back to Sony over it.
That's a one way communication
Good point.
But the TVs (like mine) are 120 Hz refresh. So they need algorithms to interpolate/smooth the video inputs that are 24 Hz, 60 Hz interlaced, 60 Hz.
Sounds like a nice feature. But people complained that the new algorithms pushed to the TV without people's knowledge or consent were inferior to the old algorithms. I personally wouldn't know, I kept my TV far away from an antenna input.
Sony can't "spy" on you with this method, but they can "break" your TV while you're asleep.
Good point.
But the TVs (like mine) are 120 Hz refresh. So they need algorithms to interpolate/smooth the video inputs that are 24 Hz, 60 Hz interlaced, 60 Hz.
Sounds like a nice feature. But people complained that the new algorithms pushed to the TV without people's knowledge or consent were inferior to the old algorithms. I personally wouldn't know, I kept my TV far away from an antenna input.
Sony can't "spy" on you with this method, but they can "break" your TV while you're asleep.
I can imagine them introducing a bug, but most motion of the interp is done in hardware. Otherwise it takes a seriously hefty gpu to do 60hz->120hz interp without dropping frames. Especially at 4K.
I've actually gone to the extent of repairing my Samsung with used parts acquired on ebay to avoid upgrading to a "smart" TV.
I'm pretty sure you can make a smart tv relatively dumb again by just not connecting it to your network though.
Not so fast. There is IP over HDMI[1] or something so at least some smart-TVs might be able to use internet connection of PS4 or AV receiver or some other gadget in ARC/HDMI chain that is connected to internet.
[1] https://www.cnet.com/news/new-hdmi-standard-brings-internet-...
[1] https://www.cnet.com/news/new-hdmi-standard-brings-internet-...
I worry about the near future where cell connectivity (ala Kindle Whispernet) is cheap enough for these companies to not even bother using your network to exfiltrate data.
Yes, that is a possibility, but is the percentage of people who don't connect their smart TV going to be high enough to warrant that? I imagine the vast majority of people let their TVs connect, because they want to use Netflix and the other streaming services.
What most techies tend to do is put devices like that (Smart TV, IP cameras, etc) into their own VLAN with zero ability to "dial home".
Frankly, the Internet of Shit scares me.
Frankly, the Internet of Shit scares me.
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Sorry, but you are giving wrong advice. For example, Roku snoops on everything you watch on TV. Here is a screenshot from Roku's policy https://imgur.com/GGyc2uT
That's true however you have more control over an external STB than you do your TV with all of it's integrated features.
If your TV has a microphone then in order to use it you must accept that they may record everything you say. You can always purchase a different brand/model however you might also be sacrificing features (e.g. All LG OLED TVs have mics in the remotes). Some STBs include microphones with their remotes but many do not, you have a choice.
Most vendors do not regularly update their smart TV firmware or require the user to update it manually via a USB stick. On the other hand, vendors of STBs regularly update the firmware on their devices. From a security perspective I'd rather connect a STB to the internet than a smart TV.
If your TV has a microphone then in order to use it you must accept that they may record everything you say. You can always purchase a different brand/model however you might also be sacrificing features (e.g. All LG OLED TVs have mics in the remotes). Some STBs include microphones with their remotes but many do not, you have a choice.
Most vendors do not regularly update their smart TV firmware or require the user to update it manually via a USB stick. On the other hand, vendors of STBs regularly update the firmware on their devices. From a security perspective I'd rather connect a STB to the internet than a smart TV.
I don't see how a Roku stick/set-top box can gather that information. It seems like antenna info etc. would only be accessible if you're using the version of Roku that's built into the TV itself.
> never use any of the online features of their "Smart" TV for this reason. Use a set-top box.
That's basically the same exact thing. A SmartTV is just a TV with a set-top box built in. Nearly all Set-top boxes (like a Roku, Chromecast, Fire Stick, your old game console) report back your viewing habits and advertising/privacy data too, in basically the same way that any average SmartTV does.
These two devices are so identical that many manufacturers just directly use a more user-friendly STB as their SmartTV. Here's a list of Roku-based SmartTV's https://www.roku.com/products/finder/roku-tv and another with Fire Stick built in https://www.roku.com/products/finder/roku-tv , and another with Chromecast https://www.google.com/chromecast/built-in/tv/ as some examples.
That's basically the same exact thing. A SmartTV is just a TV with a set-top box built in. Nearly all Set-top boxes (like a Roku, Chromecast, Fire Stick, your old game console) report back your viewing habits and advertising/privacy data too, in basically the same way that any average SmartTV does.
These two devices are so identical that many manufacturers just directly use a more user-friendly STB as their SmartTV. Here's a list of Roku-based SmartTV's https://www.roku.com/products/finder/roku-tv and another with Fire Stick built in https://www.roku.com/products/finder/roku-tv , and another with Chromecast https://www.google.com/chromecast/built-in/tv/ as some examples.
Single point of privacy failure, two ways.
With a roku, roku is selling or having stolen your privacy. With a smart TV running roku app, both samsung and roku are selling or having stolen your privacy.
The opposite direction of single point of privacy failure is watching TV must flow thru the TV. Theoretically I could watch amazon prime by plugging something that doesn't spy into a HDMI, and the TV can report very little spy data back.
The argument is most CC theft doesn't involve stealing photocopies of CCs, so why go to any effort to avoid getting your physical CC photocopied? However, the real question is, what do I personally gain by making photocopies of my credit card and leaving them laying around? Nothing? Well, why bother?
There are secondary effects because the primary purpose of a roku is being a roku they tend to do a better job at it, including better security/privacy/whatever, whereas the primary purpose of a TV is to display HDMI signals and there's a parasitic infection of privacy violation built into the smart TVs that no consumers want, as a secondary task of being a fake roku it'll never be a very good roku. Very much like asking why hardware stores exist in a post-swiss-army-knife world. My pocket knife has a terrible little pair of scissors why would any market exist for dedicated "real" scissors? The smart TV, at this era, distributes "smartness" at the quality level of the worst 80s era infomercial products, because for most people, its just a TV so expending more effort on the app beyond "well, it boots most of the time" is lost profit.
With a roku, roku is selling or having stolen your privacy. With a smart TV running roku app, both samsung and roku are selling or having stolen your privacy.
The opposite direction of single point of privacy failure is watching TV must flow thru the TV. Theoretically I could watch amazon prime by plugging something that doesn't spy into a HDMI, and the TV can report very little spy data back.
The argument is most CC theft doesn't involve stealing photocopies of CCs, so why go to any effort to avoid getting your physical CC photocopied? However, the real question is, what do I personally gain by making photocopies of my credit card and leaving them laying around? Nothing? Well, why bother?
There are secondary effects because the primary purpose of a roku is being a roku they tend to do a better job at it, including better security/privacy/whatever, whereas the primary purpose of a TV is to display HDMI signals and there's a parasitic infection of privacy violation built into the smart TVs that no consumers want, as a secondary task of being a fake roku it'll never be a very good roku. Very much like asking why hardware stores exist in a post-swiss-army-knife world. My pocket knife has a terrible little pair of scissors why would any market exist for dedicated "real" scissors? The smart TV, at this era, distributes "smartness" at the quality level of the worst 80s era infomercial products, because for most people, its just a TV so expending more effort on the app beyond "well, it boots most of the time" is lost profit.
> Theoretically I could watch amazon prime by plugging something that doesn't spy into an HDMI, and the TV can report very little spy data back.
I’d be interested in people’s recommendations for this. Can you use a raspberry pi, for instance, and get good performance, and access to online services like Netflix? Do most people use some open source set top box software, or just raspbian and a browser?
I’d be interested in people’s recommendations for this. Can you use a raspberry pi, for instance, and get good performance, and access to online services like Netflix? Do most people use some open source set top box software, or just raspbian and a browser?
The NVIDIA Shield TV is a capable Android-powered set-top box that should be able to run Netflix without a problem, and has a pretty decent history of getting OS updates[0]. Had I not already built my own HTPC shortly before it came out, I probably would've gone with that.
Kodi (which powers most RPi-based HTPC's) had a Netflix add-on for awhile, although last I checked it was more or less just the page running in a browser.
Kodi (which powers most RPi-based HTPC's) had a Netflix add-on for awhile, although last I checked it was more or less just the page running in a browser.
Why not just plugin a laptop via HDMI? This worked 10 years ago and it still works today.
Use a Roku, a Chromecast, a Fire Stick
So use a device from one of the three companies that all make money from advertising based on gathering user's data....
So use a device from one of the three companies that all make money from advertising based on gathering user's data....
Bought a Vizio in 2017 (because 5 HDMI ports, 4K HDR, dolby vision), and I just couldn't find one non-smart TV that was 4K HDR.
So I resorted to use it with Apple TV only (its great that Apple TV also has Dolby Vision support, so DV content looks stunning on this display).
I thought I was smart in not connecting the TV to the internets. Once I did connect it for a few days, later at some point Vizio forced me to connect it because, they changed the physical remote, sent it to me for free, and then the UI was blocked until I setup the new remote, which needed internet. For a moment, I thought of returning the TV to Costco saying "it is not working". But I didn't have the patience to do that :-/
So technically, Vizio or any smart TV can prevent you from using the TV after you start using it, if you refuse to update the firmware, remote etc.
I'm willing to pay 2x the price I paid for Vizio, if Apple comes out with a display, because thats the only brand I trust for privacy. But only problem in that case, will be HDMI ports. I doubt an Apple Display would have more than 1 or 2 HDMI ports (looking at how they are port unfriendly on Macbooks :)
So I resorted to use it with Apple TV only (its great that Apple TV also has Dolby Vision support, so DV content looks stunning on this display).
I thought I was smart in not connecting the TV to the internets. Once I did connect it for a few days, later at some point Vizio forced me to connect it because, they changed the physical remote, sent it to me for free, and then the UI was blocked until I setup the new remote, which needed internet. For a moment, I thought of returning the TV to Costco saying "it is not working". But I didn't have the patience to do that :-/
So technically, Vizio or any smart TV can prevent you from using the TV after you start using it, if you refuse to update the firmware, remote etc.
I'm willing to pay 2x the price I paid for Vizio, if Apple comes out with a display, because thats the only brand I trust for privacy. But only problem in that case, will be HDMI ports. I doubt an Apple Display would have more than 1 or 2 HDMI ports (looking at how they are port unfriendly on Macbooks :)
I recently bought a Sony 900F. Great TV, but I’m not connecting it to the internet and the Android “smart” portion may as well not exist. There’s no reason to use it when the Apple TV 4K, PS4, etc all do the smart bits better.
I too would pay a sizable premium for a high quality mid-high tier dumb TV just to never have to worry about the associated privacy implications. I’d guess most folks who have any kind of serious media center setups would also agree. Perhaps it’s time for a few boutique TV companies to enter the scene?
I too would pay a sizable premium for a high quality mid-high tier dumb TV just to never have to worry about the associated privacy implications. I’d guess most folks who have any kind of serious media center setups would also agree. Perhaps it’s time for a few boutique TV companies to enter the scene?
Hopefully for that premium you’d also get a TV that powers-on close to instantly (or at least faster than whatever box you’re using it with), gives you a control over display settings per-HDMI input, lets you use Bluetooth headphones (the ATV can do this, it’s great).
Unfortunately it would be niche indeed, as it’d be a very hard sell to push a “non-smart” TV at a premium, and I can’t see how the economies of scale could ever work. :(
Unfortunately it would be niche indeed, as it’d be a very hard sell to push a “non-smart” TV at a premium, and I can’t see how the economies of scale could ever work. :(
A sharp, clean, timeless HUD design and FOSS reflashable firmware would a nice plus too.
I would assume the biggest cost would be that big display panel, but have no experience with manufacturing/supply chain to back that up. How does one research such a thing I wonder...
I would assume the biggest cost would be that big display panel, but have no experience with manufacturing/supply chain to back that up. How does one research such a thing I wonder...
I had this scenario with my Vizio, too (I mentioned it above). I got the new remote amd they had replaced Chromecast firmware with their own smart tv junk that required TOS acceptance for monitoring. I had to ban my own tv from using the network ever again.
I assume Google is reporting on my Chromecast usage, but Vizio doing unaccepted updates to essentially brick my tv unless I agree to be monitored? That’s a step or two too far.
I assume Google is reporting on my Chromecast usage, but Vizio doing unaccepted updates to essentially brick my tv unless I agree to be monitored? That’s a step or two too far.
> So technically, Vizio or any smart TV can prevent you from using the TV after you start using it, if you refuse to update the firmware, remote etc.
Not if you never connect it, right? It seems you were fine until you connected it online "for a few days"...
Not if you never connect it, right? It seems you were fine until you connected it online "for a few days"...
True :(
(I don’t even know why I did that)
(I don’t even know why I did that)
I bought an LG TV. You can update the firmware offline with a flashdrive old school style. I imagine other TV manufacturers have this as well.
I have the same setup with an LG display and love the Dolby Vision on Netflix
I'm actually going to be in the market for a new television later this year. My only use is to watch Netflix, some Blu-rays, and dock my Nintendo Switch to it. Are there any recommended high definition (4k+) televisions that aren't Smart TV's?
I bought a 65" 4k@60hz HiSense TV (65H8C) about a year and a half ago, haven't had any major complaints. It's always in PC/game mode which turns off as much of the post processing stuff as possible and it's low latency enough that I can play games on it without irritation. It's technically "smart" but it's never been connected to a network, I just use it for HDMI out of a media/gaming PC + consoles.
If you don't need something that big or bigger, there are lots of options in the 40-50 inch range... 3 years ago I got a dumb 42" 4k@60hz Seiki "TV" solely to use as my primary workstation monitor, it works fine for movies too. I did have to get some beta firmware from Seiki's Facebook account though in order to remove the unbearable latency even for programming tasks (gaming was out of the question before the flash).
Neither of those is going to impress someone who really cares about display quality of course. They work for me.
If you don't need something that big or bigger, there are lots of options in the 40-50 inch range... 3 years ago I got a dumb 42" 4k@60hz Seiki "TV" solely to use as my primary workstation monitor, it works fine for movies too. I did have to get some beta firmware from Seiki's Facebook account though in order to remove the unbearable latency even for programming tasks (gaming was out of the question before the flash).
Neither of those is going to impress someone who really cares about display quality of course. They work for me.
Would recommend to use an external device for Netflix (Apple TV, Roku, Chromecast, etc) and just block internet entirely from the TV.
> block internet entirely from the TV
That may work with current TVs, but system-on-a-chip vendors have offered devices with LTE/etc baseband processors for several years. The only reason the TVs are still using your internet connection instead of the cellular networks is because nobody has spent the time negotiating for some sort off-peak bulk rate deal with the carriers.
The precedent for that happening is OnStar; if the TV manufactures start to lose too much of their spyware revenue due to being blocked at the home LAN, they will simply bypass the problem.
edit: my point is that the solution to this problem isn't technical. Political fixes (regulation) could solve the problem. Throwing people in jail for trespassing or harassment when they willfully appropriate private spaces without informed consent would also work.
That may work with current TVs, but system-on-a-chip vendors have offered devices with LTE/etc baseband processors for several years. The only reason the TVs are still using your internet connection instead of the cellular networks is because nobody has spent the time negotiating for some sort off-peak bulk rate deal with the carriers.
The precedent for that happening is OnStar; if the TV manufactures start to lose too much of their spyware revenue due to being blocked at the home LAN, they will simply bypass the problem.
edit: my point is that the solution to this problem isn't technical. Political fixes (regulation) could solve the problem. Throwing people in jail for trespassing or harassment when they willfully appropriate private spaces without informed consent would also work.
I hope they do that, I now have free data using their sim card, and I will abuse it.
Rather than blocking internet, you can just buy a TV without the spyware. Keywords: "Commercial Display", "Digital Signage", "Computer monitor". I've been happy with models from LG and NEC.
I spent double to get a commercial LG OLED retail display without smart features, and I'm delighted with it. But commercial displays generally don't offer 4K, or HDR, which home theater users have been told to want - or even CEC which is actually useful.
That’s a hassle and you never know exactly what you’ll get. Commercial TVs also don’t go on sale like regular ones do. Better to use a smart, safe connected device from a manufacturer that won’t sell your data (Apple).
Huh? Companies like Iiyama live on dumb screen for now at least well over a decade, judging by the age of hardware made by them still running (not 24x7 though, the CCFL backlight in the older ones would have given up).
> you never know exactly what you’ll get
What does that mean? These models have reviews online just like regular TVs (sure, maybe there are fewer data points), and the tech specs tend to be even more detailed.
What does that mean? These models have reviews online just like regular TVs (sure, maybe there are fewer data points), and the tech specs tend to be even more detailed.
How is the privacy and data collection behavior of those external devices?
>Apple doesn’t gather your personal information to sell to advertisers or other organizations.
https://www.apple.com/privacy/
>Roku Devices regularly upload usage information to Roku as part of their use. The collected information includes the specific identifiers of streams played, duration played, various quality measures, error logs, software version numbers, and other usage statistics. Usage information uploaded from Roku Devices is personally identifiable by product serial number. In some instances, serial numbers are associated with personally identifiable information to aid in customer service and support.
https://soundbridge.roku.com/privacy/
>Lol
https://policies.google.com/privacy?hl=en
Also he didn't mention the Raspberry Pi by name, but Linux does not collect your information and you have complete control over everything it does.
https://www.apple.com/privacy/
>Roku Devices regularly upload usage information to Roku as part of their use. The collected information includes the specific identifiers of streams played, duration played, various quality measures, error logs, software version numbers, and other usage statistics. Usage information uploaded from Roku Devices is personally identifiable by product serial number. In some instances, serial numbers are associated with personally identifiable information to aid in customer service and support.
https://soundbridge.roku.com/privacy/
>Lol
https://policies.google.com/privacy?hl=en
Also he didn't mention the Raspberry Pi by name, but Linux does not collect your information and you have complete control over everything it does.
That's a very old link to the Roku privacy policy from back before Roku had streaming video products. The current one is at
https://docs.roku.com/doc/userprivacypolicy/en-us
https://docs.roku.com/doc/userprivacypolicy/en-us
Unfortunately, better sets all include smart features. Just don't setup network connectivity and you'll be fine. Doing so also blocks the annoying new(er) "feature" many manufacturers have introduced -- injecting ads into the UI.
As far as I know, Sony is the only high end mfg that doesn't put ads in their current TV offerings.
As far as I know, Sony is the only high end mfg that doesn't put ads in their current TV offerings.
As far as I know, Sony is the only high end mfg that doesn't put ads in their current TV offerings.
My $DEITY, it's gotten that bad? Not that I'd connect a modern TV to a network connection, but yeesh, it's almost like they don't want me to buy another TV when this (thankfully, relatively new) one dies. But I'd guess there are a lot more folks willing to put up with it than there are cranky old farts like me.
My $DEITY, it's gotten that bad? Not that I'd connect a modern TV to a network connection, but yeesh, it's almost like they don't want me to buy another TV when this (thankfully, relatively new) one dies. But I'd guess there are a lot more folks willing to put up with it than there are cranky old farts like me.
Yep. https://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/ads-in-smart-tv I stand corrected, too, it looks like Vizio is also in the clear with Sony.
That said we're just talking about ads. Both Sony and Vizio have questionable pasts regarding information collection/privacy violation.
That said we're just talking about ads. Both Sony and Vizio have questionable pasts regarding information collection/privacy violation.
Exactly this. And use something like an Apple TV for connected watching through a company that actually cares about your privacy.
Too bad the Apple TV does violence to the sound output of the content that's playing. Unfortunatly, it seems like the only box that supports everything (HDR, x265, bitstreaming atmos, dts:x, etc) is the nvidia shield which is android TV so you get all of the usual Google crap.
Atmos support at the very least is coming to Apple TV with the tvOS update coming out this fall.
They’re hard to look up but you need to check “commercial” series. I bought a 55” 4k LG dumb tv a year ago and I’m quite happy with it. Simple remote, no hassle. The downsides are that it only has two HDMI inputs and afaik no antenna for over-the-air channels. Also it doesn’t do HDR and I don’t know if they have a “commercial series” dumb-tv that does.
I’ll link you to the model when I’m back at my desktop.
I’ll link you to the model when I’m back at my desktop.
Those are typically sold as "digital signage" and like you said do not include tuners.
Ah, found my model:
https://www.lg.com/ca_en/commercial-tv/lg-55UX340C-public-di...
From lg.com you have to click the sneaky "For Business" button at the top-right. From there, it's under Products > Commercial TV > Commercial Lite. Even then, the dumb-tv options are a subset of what's shown. It's not under "digital signage".
They don't make it easy for us. I was lucky enough that these products are sold to normal people at canadacomputers; I was able to pick one up in my city. YMMV.
https://www.lg.com/ca_en/commercial-tv/lg-55UX340C-public-di...
From lg.com you have to click the sneaky "For Business" button at the top-right. From there, it's under Products > Commercial TV > Commercial Lite. Even then, the dumb-tv options are a subset of what's shown. It's not under "digital signage".
They don't make it easy for us. I was lucky enough that these products are sold to normal people at canadacomputers; I was able to pick one up in my city. YMMV.
That's a really good idea.
I fairly recently ended up with a TV with a large amount of features that are just ignored because I don't ever connect it to the internet, instead relying on an Android device I have more trust in. I'd rather not have things that I don't use. I won't be buying another for quite some time but I'll keep commercial displays in mind next time or when asked for a recommendation.
I fairly recently ended up with a TV with a large amount of features that are just ignored because I don't ever connect it to the internet, instead relying on an Android device I have more trust in. I'd rather not have things that I don't use. I won't be buying another for quite some time but I'll keep commercial displays in mind next time or when asked for a recommendation.
How was cost comparison? Did you save anything significant going with this line over a SmartTV? My future solution is to simply not plug the SmartTV into the network and if it means paying the same why not?
My dumb TV boots up from power button to pix in about 2 to 3 seconds. My MiL's smart TV takes about 20-30 seconds from flipping the power strip on. So "smart" costs about ten times latency in two anecdotes of data. My MiL is very jealous of my dumb TV, no one likes a slow UI.
My MiL doesn't have wifi internet; possibly the TV wastes a lot of time at boot trying to connect as punishment for people who don't allow it to spy, I don't know.
My MiL doesn't have wifi internet; possibly the TV wastes a lot of time at boot trying to connect as punishment for people who don't allow it to spy, I don't know.
Smart TVs usually have a full blown operating system they have to boot. It's similar to booting a Roku, Apple TV, or your Smartphone.
I had a strong preference for a "dumb tv" and I would have paid slightly more for that, specifically so that the TV and its controls don't try to hassle me.
That being said, IIRC my TV was ~$900, and at the time the most equivalent consumer smart TV was ~1050. So I figured that I saved a bit of money. But there wasn't exactly feature parity even at that price point (e.g. the Consumer tv had another HDMI input or two).
That being said, IIRC my TV was ~$900, and at the time the most equivalent consumer smart TV was ~1050. So I figured that I saved a bit of money. But there wasn't exactly feature parity even at that price point (e.g. the Consumer tv had another HDMI input or two).
I can recommend the Iiyama PROLITE X4071UHSU-B1, a 39.5" dumb screen with a nice panel and the choice between 2160p60@10bit or 2160p75@8bit. I did not get my GPU to spew out the latter though. These two only work over the Displayport, afaik. It is honestly the nicest panel I ran across on a dumb screen. Nice too as a Desktop screen, the screen real estate is worth it if you live in a city, earning city wages on your computer, and can use it productively.
Only downside I noticed is the long boot time it seems to show. Combined with the low black level, you need the room somewhat dark to notice if the Backlight turned on. Netflix 4k on it is gorgeous, as long as it's close by.
Only downside I noticed is the long boot time it seems to show. Combined with the low black level, you need the room somewhat dark to notice if the Backlight turned on. Netflix 4k on it is gorgeous, as long as it's close by.
As an alternative to the digital signage other posters have suggested, you could also consider a projector if it's possible to make work in your physical space.
Projectors are also getting smart features, at least the ones targeted at home users. 4K projectors also still represent a significant price premium over TVs, which has gotten a lot better in the past year or so, but still. Projectors also inherently have a shorter lifetime because of all the heat generated by the lamp.
That said, if you have a good space for one a projector is awesome. I bought an Optoma projector a while back and have worked it to death. TV, movies and games on a gigantic projector screen are just awesome.
That said, if you have a good space for one a projector is awesome. I bought an Optoma projector a while back and have worked it to death. TV, movies and games on a gigantic projector screen are just awesome.
Stay away from Samsung if you value privacy. They’re absolutely awful with it. Lg seems to be going that path too which is a shame. What I’d do is just get a pihole and get a tv ad blocklist and you should be fine.
Samsung seems to be incapable of making quality software that benefits the actual consumer. I would avoid connecting anything they make to the internet.
> What I’d do is just get a pihole and get a tv ad blocklist and you should be fine.
But that's still giving money to the dirtbag company...
But that's still giving money to the dirtbag company...
Unfortunately, yeah. There's not that much choice out there - especially if you want to just pick one up from a store or if you want new features like oled.
So what is the justification for this being acceptable behavior (beyond the usual "read the 20 page, graduate-reading-level privacy policy)?
Sites like Google and Facebook provide free services in exchange for ads.
Personally I think it is ludicrous that a company thinks it OK to use my personal information to enrich themselves, via a device that I paid for.
Sites like Google and Facebook provide free services in exchange for ads.
Personally I think it is ludicrous that a company thinks it OK to use my personal information to enrich themselves, via a device that I paid for.
cheaper TV ?
That's never how it works, though. Instead of offering a cheaper TV, they will instead offer a TV priced at what they can sell it for, and make money on the data sale as well. If they WERE to increase the price in exchange for not selling the data, someone would likely ask them why they weren't selling the data anyway, along with the price increase, if sales weren't negatively affected. To not do so would be leaving the money on the table, theoretically. The safest thing to do would be to not have the data at all, avoiding the temptation to sell.
I don't like not having an option either, but that's not a good argument since what they can sell it for is really what number of sales at what price. Presumably they would sell fewer at a higher, non-ad-subsidized price.
GP argues that they have no incentive to offer a non-ad-subsidized TV at a higher price, because consumers will for the large part not notice ad-(preference-)subsidization or otherwise consider it a factor in the decision to buy such a TV.
Please see the following statement from our partners at In-Q-Tel...
Yeah it was incredibly annoying when my new expensive TV played ads when I was trying to browse apps... really? WTF.
I've started to rely more on my PS4's apps to view TV. While it does have its own ads, none of them seem as intrusive as the one from the native TV interface.
I've started to rely more on my PS4's apps to view TV. While it does have its own ads, none of them seem as intrusive as the one from the native TV interface.
My Vizio replaced its built-in, vanilla Chromecast capability with a conventional “smart tv” interface that I didn’t want. And to be able to use that, they force you to accept a TOS that includes monitoring.
Worse, I couldn’t tell it to stop connecting to my WiFi after all this happened. I had to ban the TV from my LAN and change the WiFi credentials.
I spent a lot of money on that TV, only to have it go rogue on me.
Worse, I couldn’t tell it to stop connecting to my WiFi after all this happened. I had to ban the TV from my LAN and change the WiFi credentials.
I spent a lot of money on that TV, only to have it go rogue on me.
The VERY first thing the LG television I bought did was show me an advertisement. I had to blocked its MAC address from the router.
The PS4 by default puts ads alongside your purchased games, but at least you can turn that off (for now)
If you think Google and Facebook are the only companies doing this on the internet, you're in a for a huge shock. There are tons of companies that do this without providing any service for you.
Recall a recent story on HN about Exactis leaking data on 100s of millions of people? That's just one of them, and until the breach almost nobody had ever heard of them.
Recall a recent story on HN about Exactis leaking data on 100s of millions of people? That's just one of them, and until the breach almost nobody had ever heard of them.
True. Basically, every time you get an annoying GDPR popup, you've found someone complicit.
That's a stretch. I worked on GDPR compliance and it wasn't because of anything underhanded or nefarious. Just had to comply with new regulations.
If you need a popup you are complicit. In that case it's very likely you are spewing my personal data to third parties.
It's the law! I'm not sure how you don't get that. People have to get explicit consent to Terms of Service and marketing. If you don't understand that times change and companies have to adapt to follow the law (with a popup modal of all things gasp) then I'm not sure what to tell ya. Good luck with that mindset.
Arguably though that's just a level of indirection though, isn't it?
Ie, I assume most of the sites I visit track me for advertising purposes. This is no different than Google, it's just that with Google I expect the developers of the tracking to be Google directly. With the NewYorkTimes or w/e I don't expect them to be doing it. I expect some random 3rd party to be doing all the real tracking.
Now I know nothing about Exactis, but I'd wager (perhaps incorrectly) that their product is directly related to a product I was consuming, such as written news content or w/e.
Ie, I assume most of the sites I visit track me for advertising purposes. This is no different than Google, it's just that with Google I expect the developers of the tracking to be Google directly. With the NewYorkTimes or w/e I don't expect them to be doing it. I expect some random 3rd party to be doing all the real tracking.
Now I know nothing about Exactis, but I'd wager (perhaps incorrectly) that their product is directly related to a product I was consuming, such as written news content or w/e.
I'm actually sort-of okay with this. It's opt-in and there's no dark patterns pushing you to accept. The only thing I have qualms with is the obfuscated language they use to say "we send what you watch to advertisers".
I ask myself this exact question about any and all vendors of machines running Windows 10. Still don't have a good answer other than they do it because there is no law to stop them and it's profitable. I mean why else would a business do this or anything for that matter? The justification therefore must be profit at all costs. The cost here is personal data. The cost in other industries are human lives. Companies enriching themselves at others' expense is the foundation of our society. What companies like Microsoft and Vizio are saying is that the price of the tv is the dollar cost plus a lifetime of data collection. Of course, there's no need to connect to the internet in case of these tvs. People running Windows technically have the same option but it's not such a good solution in that case.
Jumping to Windows 10 is a somewhat bizarre segue from Smart TVs seeing more than they should.
I hope you don't own a cellphone running iOS or Android.
Android is fine as long as you:
- don't login into Google Account
- don't enable GPS, because every time you enable it, you get a popup suggesting you share your location with Google. If you choose "don't ask me again", the button "decline" gets disabled so that you cannot choose a wrong option by mistake [1] (I wonder, why Google wants to know where I am going to so badly? Did NSA made an offer they couldn't refuse?)
- don't have spyware from a manufacturer (noname Chinese phones often have it)
[1] https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/115944/in-lollip...
- don't login into Google Account
- don't enable GPS, because every time you enable it, you get a popup suggesting you share your location with Google. If you choose "don't ask me again", the button "decline" gets disabled so that you cannot choose a wrong option by mistake [1] (I wonder, why Google wants to know where I am going to so badly? Did NSA made an offer they couldn't refuse?)
- don't have spyware from a manufacturer (noname Chinese phones often have it)
[1] https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/115944/in-lollip...
This happens all the time. Recently I bought a sous-vide machine, and realized that it would phone home with details of my cooking, along with the WiFi AP. Essentially someone at the company would have an idea of my location, along with whether someone was at that location, and maybe my food preferences.
The idea that this kind of analytics is not opt-in, and that you are essentially forced to provide this on a product that you paid full price for is ridiculous. It may feel like an overreaction to worry about someone knowing what you are cooking, but how do you guarantee that this information will not be combined with other pieces of data by a third party to create a more complete picture of the user?
The idea that this kind of analytics is not opt-in, and that you are essentially forced to provide this on a product that you paid full price for is ridiculous. It may feel like an overreaction to worry about someone knowing what you are cooking, but how do you guarantee that this information will not be combined with other pieces of data by a third party to create a more complete picture of the user?
You bought a network enabled sous-vide machine?
I am as shocked as you are are, but apparently they exist: https://www.cookmellow.com. A bit like a remotely-programmable slow cooker, but then for the limited amount of ingredients a sous-vide will cook.
Yes. The newer ones enable control over WiFi. Joule requires you to connect to WiFi to get firmware updates.
You don't pay the full cost of the device - at least in the case of Roku devices. Roku is all about making money from advertising - from the home screen where half of it is an ad to the hard coded shortcut buttons on the remote that are sponsored by various streaming providers.
While the AppleTV 4K costs a lot more. Apple made a simple proposition -- I give them money and they give me stuff. They don't make money by selling user data.
While the AppleTV 4K costs a lot more. Apple made a simple proposition -- I give them money and they give me stuff. They don't make money by selling user data.
Eradicating Samba TV from my Sony Android TV was quite a fight. I ended up with a local Pi-hole server blocking everything the TV was trying to access except Netflix. Not optimal but better than nothing...
A Pi-hole is the only real solution for this as far as I can tell if you still want to use apps on your TV like Netflix. I use a Pi-hole as well with several block list sources, my favorite being Steven Black's hosts: https://github.com/StevenBlack/hosts
A simple workaround for nefarious vendors is to ignore your DHCP-provided resolver address and just punch through to their own resolver. Maybe over SSL is they're really sneaky.
You need to firewall addresses ( tricky ), or connect to a LAN-only Wifi, or don't connect at all.
You need to firewall addresses ( tricky ), or connect to a LAN-only Wifi, or don't connect at all.
The NYT story gives the impression that at least there is a simple opt-out: Is your Sony using some kind of dark patterns to get you to opt back in?
Opted-out -> deactivated -> uninstalled -> still dozen of DNS requests per minute for samba.tv
No dark patterns per se, just straight up lies.
No dark patterns per se, just straight up lies.
Luckily, we have GDPR in the EU. And they are going to be fined if they are doing the opt-in this way.
This is explicitly why the last TV I bought was a dumb TV. One less privacy nightmare to worry about. Of course, that just shifts the problem to the black box on the other side of the HDMI cable, but I can watch as much over-the-air TV as I want without anyone harvesting my viewing habits.
What we need as consumers are laws that would allow the owners of smart televisions, network-connected devices, and any other physical products with included software, to more easily control the behavior of the hardware that they own, without resorting to rooting and jailbreaking to "pwn ur own" property. (Including refusal to honor DRM restrictions.) I don't know why "you can't have your cake, and eat it too" is not an actual legal principle, but you can't sell a hardware device to the consumer and still control what they can or cannot do with it.
What we need as consumers are laws that would allow the owners of smart televisions, network-connected devices, and any other physical products with included software, to more easily control the behavior of the hardware that they own, without resorting to rooting and jailbreaking to "pwn ur own" property. (Including refusal to honor DRM restrictions.) I don't know why "you can't have your cake, and eat it too" is not an actual legal principle, but you can't sell a hardware device to the consumer and still control what they can or cannot do with it.
I never connect my smart TVs to wifi. Problem solved
Smart TV's are Dumb IoT's. I have found they lack proper implementations of DNS resolvers. They do not obey TTL's and will aggressively retry connections. On the plus side, some of them don't check ssl certs, so you can snoop on the data they gather. [0] You can use tc netem to rate limit the TV and add a lot of packet loss and reordering so make mitm easier, as the TV will retry many times.
[0] - https://thehackernews.com/2017/05/cia-mitm-hacking-tool.html
[0] - https://thehackernews.com/2017/05/cia-mitm-hacking-tool.html
A few months ago I bought a new TCL TV here in China. I was amazed when, using it as an external monitor, an ad popped up over the screen which required using the TV remote to dismiss. Never buying TCL again.
I bought an upper midrange dumb TV about 10 years ago (LED, full array dimming) and it's still working flawlessly. The only downside is it has massive bezels and is fairly thick.
It might seem silly, but I recently considered upgrading it purely for aesthetic reasons and was ready to spend the money, but the smart TV aspect is a major turnoff so I decided against it for now. Even if I don't use the smart TV features there's still downsides like boot time.
It might seem silly, but I recently considered upgrading it purely for aesthetic reasons and was ready to spend the money, but the smart TV aspect is a major turnoff so I decided against it for now. Even if I don't use the smart TV features there's still downsides like boot time.
It is interesting how they hide important details in long terms and conditions document. Cannot other industries learn from this Silicon Valley invention? For example, a car dealer could hide a condition that they are only temporarily lending a car instead of selling. There are people who don't read the documents they sign carefully.
I don't think SV invented this. It's just that this hasn't been regulated out of software industry yet.
This is a perfect case where even if you pay you still are the product. Of course this needs regulation.
I have a cheapie TCL Roku TV. If I hook up my laptop using HDMI and play something along the lines of a movie Xvid file, a banner notification pops up asking me if I'd like to watch the show on one streaming service of another.
Yuck. How does it know what you're watching? HDMI doesn't expose file names AFAIK.
Not sure. Subtle fingerprint encoded in the soundtrack? Fast Fourier analysis fingerprint of a specific span of time near the beginning of the movie?
One of my main reasons for sticking with an AppleTV instead of switching to a Roku is that Roku also does this, but Apple has a stronger stand on privacy.
Can anybody give me a good reason why I should care if my TV watching habits are tracked for the purpose of targeted advertisements?
Time to put the TV on the guest network.
That won't stop it collecting data.
It would stop collection of data on other devices on network,but yeah.
That depends on how the companies determine “the same network”. If it’s external IP based then a guest network is of no use.
I own my own router and the guest network is isolated.
LG has something similar called "Channel Plus" which is an app that has a bunch of (frankly, mediocre) IPTV channels in exchange for you consenting to data collection on everything you watch. I didn't read the TOS closely, but it wasn't clear to me whether it collected data just when you were using the app, or on all content viewed with the TV even in other apps, OTA, etc. I'm suspicious because you have to consent and enable data collection in the global settings for the TV.
Channel plus on my oled spams me with notifications even though it’s disabked. Clearly lg doesn’t care.
(1) Who watches TV these days?
(2) Most all of the "smart" TVs in my area don't use any of their features. They are all used as dumb monitors. They either take signal from a proprietary cable box, a game device, or some other media player.
(3) I have yet to see a TV that requires an internet connection to function. If you have one of these things, blacklist it on your network. At the firewall, or just don't give it your wifi password.
(2) Most all of the "smart" TVs in my area don't use any of their features. They are all used as dumb monitors. They either take signal from a proprietary cable box, a game device, or some other media player.
(3) I have yet to see a TV that requires an internet connection to function. If you have one of these things, blacklist it on your network. At the firewall, or just don't give it your wifi password.
Netflix?
You do Netflix on the TV app? Everyone I know uses an external media device/player for Netflix. The TV apps are either too slow, or just out of date.
The article shows that these TVs identify the shows based on the actual pixels, so using an external player is irrelevant in this case.
Have you actually tried any? I have a 4 year old Samsung TV and its Netflix app is great. I don't want the hassle of turning on my PS4 or setting up a Pi. I don't really see why people hate on Smart TVs I've used both Samsung and LG and they're great for netflix/plex/youtube (Other than the obvious privacy issues here, but I can't imagine most external devices are better).
70% of Netflix users watch it on a TV:
https://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_13191_...
https://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_13191_...
Yes, but does a Roku or other device external to the TV count in that metric?
samba can use fingerprinting to detect what you are watching, even if you are watching using a roku (and have somehow opted-in to samba on the tv itself). It can even detect games, etc.
> 70% of Netflix users watch it on a TV:
The statistic you're citing lumps together people watching directly on a TV vs using it as a display for a device like a Roku or X-Box, so it doesn't actually support the point you're trying to make :)
The statistic you're citing lumps together people watching directly on a TV vs using it as a display for a device like a Roku or X-Box, so it doesn't actually support the point you're trying to make :)
I don't think you are understanding how they are identifying content. It doesn't need to playing via the built in 'app'. Basically they are fingerprinting the video feed which passes through the video processors in the TV regardless of the source (internal, external, whatever). This is a video analog of what apps like Shazam do to identify songs. If you are playing content from any source on one of these devices they can detect what the content is and report back on it. About the only way you could avoid this is to never connect the TV to your network, but even that may not be sufficient.
I think the point the GP is making is that users who use TV as merely displays and not connected to the internet cannot have access to this data, whereas connected TVs can send whatever fingerprinted data they want back home.
Sure does because there is no difference. It's still watching tv regardless of where the source comes from. People are literally watching or staring at their tvs. That's what watching tv means. It has nothing to do with the source of the content and never did.
I have an LG Smart TV, and I use the build-in apps because I'm not aware any devices provide 12-bit 4k output without some sort of signal processing that I don't want.
Admittedly, it's been a while (and a couple of Apple TV 4k software revisions) since I've checked, but as you get into newer display technologies it's harder to find devices that can provide you the same experience you'd get from the built-in app.
Admittedly, it's been a while (and a couple of Apple TV 4k software revisions) since I've checked, but as you get into newer display technologies it's harder to find devices that can provide you the same experience you'd get from the built-in app.
A lot of people watch physical TVs, even if they don't watch "TV". This is about tracking what people are watching on the physical device, no matter the source.
If I watch a Blu-ray or Netflix, my smart TV will still send a fingerprint of that content to their servers for analytics.
As far as not connecting your TV you the Internet: (1) The default setup says you need to, so most people will since they want to watch Netflix. (2) There's so much free wifi around these days I wouldn't be surprised if TVs try to connect to any open wifi for "automatic updates".
If I watch a Blu-ray or Netflix, my smart TV will still send a fingerprint of that content to their servers for analytics.
As far as not connecting your TV you the Internet: (1) The default setup says you need to, so most people will since they want to watch Netflix. (2) There's so much free wifi around these days I wouldn't be surprised if TVs try to connect to any open wifi for "automatic updates".
Can that be constructed as CFAA if they then bypass some agreement button or so?
I haven't updated my Samsung 40" TV in about 7 years for this reason. It's damn near impossible to just find a high quality "dumb" TV.