Ask HN: Earning 100k EUR in Berlin?
I am a Ruby programmer with 10 years experience, based in Berlin, Germany, earning around 60k EUR. I also have some Python and JavaScript experience. I'd same I'm a mid-level engineer, not working on anything super trendy or complex. I'm in my 40s. I see lots of people on HN with salaries in the 100k region and above, but usually in the US. Is it possible for someone like me, staying in Berlin, to reach 100k EUR within a few years?
223 comments
Anyone saying that this isn't possible in Berlin is stuck in 2010. Today there are most certainly well funded startups paying 100k for top senior engineers and/or managers, but that is in the top 10% of salaries in this field.
Beyond startups, there are 1. some smaller, but crazy profitable software companies (think dozens of M in annual revenue with less than 50 staff and a handful of owners) that will also pay this type of salary and 2. some larger companies (think Zalando).
Compared to US and esp Bay Area salaries (which ofc can be multiples of that) one needs to bear in mind massively cheaper costs of living (while often providing higher standards) - day care for kids for example is 100% free (as in tax funded) in Berlin.
That being said, the pandemic is certainly taking its toll as many companies have gone into a hiring freeze.
At the same time, the decline of SF and the remote work trend will likely mean an increase in intl salaries (due to Big Tech hiring remotely) and a decrease in SF salaries.
Beyond startups, there are 1. some smaller, but crazy profitable software companies (think dozens of M in annual revenue with less than 50 staff and a handful of owners) that will also pay this type of salary and 2. some larger companies (think Zalando).
Compared to US and esp Bay Area salaries (which ofc can be multiples of that) one needs to bear in mind massively cheaper costs of living (while often providing higher standards) - day care for kids for example is 100% free (as in tax funded) in Berlin.
That being said, the pandemic is certainly taking its toll as many companies have gone into a hiring freeze.
At the same time, the decline of SF and the remote work trend will likely mean an increase in intl salaries (due to Big Tech hiring remotely) and a decrease in SF salaries.
> one needs to bear in mind massively cheaper costs of living
Again, you don’t have to live in the Bay Area to make 100K+. You can easily pull that number with OP’s experience in the southeast, and I’d bet good money the cost of living is a lot cheaper than most anywhere in Europe.
> day care for kids for example is 100% free (as in tax funded) in Berlin.
This kind of hits at why some people prefer higher salary versus “free” government programs. My kids won’t need daycare forever. I’d rather make a helluva lot more money and pay for daycare out of pocket for the 5 years they actually need it than pay for everyone else’s free daycare for the entirety of my working life.
Again, you don’t have to live in the Bay Area to make 100K+. You can easily pull that number with OP’s experience in the southeast, and I’d bet good money the cost of living is a lot cheaper than most anywhere in Europe.
> day care for kids for example is 100% free (as in tax funded) in Berlin.
This kind of hits at why some people prefer higher salary versus “free” government programs. My kids won’t need daycare forever. I’d rather make a helluva lot more money and pay for daycare out of pocket for the 5 years they actually need it than pay for everyone else’s free daycare for the entirety of my working life.
> This kind of hits at why some people prefer higher salary versus “free” government programs. My kids won’t need daycare forever. I’d rather make a helluva lot more money and pay for daycare out of pocket for the 5 years they actually need it than pay for everyone else’s free daycare for the entirety of my working life.
Your kids will need school and university. That's pretty much "free" too in many EU countries.
Your kids will need school and university. That's pretty much "free" too in many EU countries.
And again, I’d rather pay for it out of pocket once than get taxed at a higher rate for my entire working life. There’s these things called “stocks” that may companies grant or provide at a discount. That combined with the effects of ~18 years of growth means getting your kids a head start on tuition isn’t nearly as expensive as you’d think.
I think you're missing out on the network effects of social services. Not having desperate people means you don't have the threat of crime. You don't have police who are one twitch away from shooting you at a traffic stop. You can have an argument with somebody on the street and, chances are it will be a civil one because they're probably an educated, unstressed person with a fulfilling life. People can make crazy decisions like making art, or quitting a job because their boss is an asshole. You won't have to worry if your kids aren't accademic - they'll probably be able to find a way.
There are tons of things like this, where you pay an enormous amount, but you gain an enormous amount more. The utility of money drops off pretty sharply above a certain amount. The utility of living in a well functioning society does not.
There are tons of things like this, where you pay an enormous amount, but you gain an enormous amount more. The utility of money drops off pretty sharply above a certain amount. The utility of living in a well functioning society does not.
> I’d rather pay for it out of pocket once than get taxed at a higher rate for my entire working life.
And some people would prefer to do otherwise. It's just a different method with people placing value on other things like 6-week vacation, childcare, tuition, health insurance etc coming from the state. Your value is different - I understand it and that's fine. You do not have to agree to the method, just understand the alternate perspective. The grandparent was trying to suggest a different method to reach the similar goals.
And some people would prefer to do otherwise. It's just a different method with people placing value on other things like 6-week vacation, childcare, tuition, health insurance etc coming from the state. Your value is different - I understand it and that's fine. You do not have to agree to the method, just understand the alternate perspective. The grandparent was trying to suggest a different method to reach the similar goals.
School is free in the US. For university, why not send them to the EU? So you can have both tons of bay area cash and a (nearly) free university for your kids.
Strangely though, this kind of education arbitrage doesn't seem popular among americans, i wonder why... it makes perfect economic sense in light of current US college prices.
Strangely though, this kind of education arbitrage doesn't seem popular among americans, i wonder why... it makes perfect economic sense in light of current US college prices.
University in EU is free for its citizens, not baka gaijin
Yes, sure. Then again I'd prefer my kids to grow up in a society where almost everyone has similar access to daycare, schools and uni, as opposed an increasingly stratified one that ultimately isn't safe outside of your gated community..
This is my experience as well. The smaller the company is in the DACH region the more it can afford to pay.
On the other hand one downside is the lack of capital for anything else (like no perks or expensive hw or even being cheapskates when it comes to infra)
For a plain senior software engineer position (no matter if you have 8 years of experience or 20), I would say no. The glass ceiling is at around 80K for the vast majority of tech companies in Berlin and Germany (excluding the top 5% of companies).
But if you get into management, I think 100K is doable for a senior position. Other alternative is to be a Principal Engineer (or Head of Engineering).
But if you get into management, I think 100K is doable for a senior position. Other alternative is to be a Principal Engineer (or Head of Engineering).
That's wild... As much as I love to complain about the bay area, being able to go upwards of $500k for an individual contributor keeps me here. Even taking into account of increased medical costs and crappy public transport, still very much worth it. Don't think there's any place it on Earth that pays this much
It's good to have a place like that. It's hard that it can take much more then you wish for, from not feeling productive all the way to taking all of the fun out of building. Watch out for that if you can. Also, Berlin is a pretty awesome place pushing some very cool things, both in and outside of venture tech.
But if you want or need 500k I’m guessing your list of potential companies to work for is small, and you’d have to work for a FAANG style co.
Not necessarily, the market is very competitive here. But to get to $500k TC as an IC (<= L5), your company will have to do well to increase the value of your grants by ~50-100%. But that is not uncommon or unrealistic.
"... upwards of $500k for an individual contributor ..."
Sucks that I suck.
Edit: Why are you down voting? I suck and will never make that sort of money.
Sucks that I suck.
Edit: Why are you down voting? I suck and will never make that sort of money.
I’m a senior engineer at a large Berlin company and I make 82k. We have a program to share salaries between employees internally, based on that and conversations with my lead I understand that I’m not at the top of the salary band. You can probably make 90k before you’d need a promotion to principal engineer or switch to management.
Our company is also not aiming to pay above average salaries, as explained company wide by people on a VP-level.
Context: 4 years of work experience.
Our company is also not aiming to pay above average salaries, as explained company wide by people on a VP-level.
Context: 4 years of work experience.
This is wild to me. What makes a developer in Europe earn so much less?
It isn't less. The quality of life in Europe, the northern countries like Germany and the Netherlands, let alone Sweden, Norway is far higher than that in the US. This comes at a cost, but it is up to you to determine whether it is worth it.
Don't get me wrong, the US is great and there is probably a lot of room for nuance in what I am saying here and I am most likely wrong. So take this with a grain of salt:
Things that seem better in Europe (most developed countries in Europe at least): universal health care, better privacy protections, better political situation (seeing as the US is a flawed democracy [1]), and many other quality of life things [2].
You could argue that if you are rich, these things touch you way less in the US, which is true. But I also like not having to drive through poverty on my way to drop off my kids somewhere. I also enjoy knowing that where I live people don't end up in the streets due to getting some illness because of fictionally high health care costs.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
Don't get me wrong, the US is great and there is probably a lot of room for nuance in what I am saying here and I am most likely wrong. So take this with a grain of salt:
Things that seem better in Europe (most developed countries in Europe at least): universal health care, better privacy protections, better political situation (seeing as the US is a flawed democracy [1]), and many other quality of life things [2].
You could argue that if you are rich, these things touch you way less in the US, which is true. But I also like not having to drive through poverty on my way to drop off my kids somewhere. I also enjoy knowing that where I live people don't end up in the streets due to getting some illness because of fictionally high health care costs.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
Not to nitpick but even taking that democracy index at face value, the US is .05 from the same category as all those countries you mention. It's not nearly as stark a comparison as you seem to be implying.
As a European, I would say the US is very different from Europe. Yes, they are similar in economic terms, but the social attitudes, economic attitudes and worldview feel starkly different. Of course the US is big place, and this varies among states, but still.
That may be the case, but as a software dev in the US, you're actually the beneficiary (via your very high salary) of the dog-eat-dog market economics that dominate the US. Whereas in Europe, as a developer you're just expected to be content with a mediocre salary, like everybody else. The only escape out of it (in Europe) seems to be the contracting market for senior people, where the rates are on par with US non-FAANG salaries.
The difference here is that if you lose your job in European countries with great social security, you still have a salary you get by fine on.
And hospital stays do not bankrupt you, or even make a dent.
Even with «great» insurance in the US, there are all these edge cases and loopholes, stuff they will not cover.
Where I live I never have to worry about these things, I do not even have to put aside money for rainy days (though I do, just because I make more than I spend).
And hospital stays do not bankrupt you, or even make a dent.
Even with «great» insurance in the US, there are all these edge cases and loopholes, stuff they will not cover.
Where I live I never have to worry about these things, I do not even have to put aside money for rainy days (though I do, just because I make more than I spend).
In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom. The system is constructed so that you give your whole life to it in return for the security and comfort. Whereas in US, you can save enough to escape the system before you're old. From what I'm reading, even just regular engineers (not software) in the US often retire at 55 or 58, as they have saved enough by then. Compare that to the retirement age of 65-69 through most of Western Europe.
> In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom
That's not true. I'm almost 40, and excluding pensions and capital tied up in my home, I currently have around £500,000 in savings. This wasn't particularly difficult to achieve on a software engineer salary in Scotland; we've travelled the globe for several years, have a nice house, 2 cars etc. We absolutely plan on retiring at around 50 at latest. Now with 20 years' experience I make €65k/y from my day job as a software architect/tech lead/lead dev (working 30h in a 4-day week). My wife and I also run a B2B micro-ISV that's made around €100k/y for the past few years (it was a slow climb to that figure over 10 years).
So, we have a household income of around €165k (~$200k) - certainly more than most in the UK, yet nowhere near what I could make in SV on my own - and still certainly enough money that we hardly need to think about it, and with considered financial planning we can easily retire early.
I'd far prefer to live in Europe than the US - I work way less hours, I get way more vacation days, our healthcare system won't bankrupt us (unfortunately I know firsthand it's far from perfect, but it's definitely still a boon for society), losing my job at any point in my career wouldn't have me out on the street, I don't need to especially fear the police, and (in general) people have a progressive attitude that serves to benefit all of society.
That's not true. I'm almost 40, and excluding pensions and capital tied up in my home, I currently have around £500,000 in savings. This wasn't particularly difficult to achieve on a software engineer salary in Scotland; we've travelled the globe for several years, have a nice house, 2 cars etc. We absolutely plan on retiring at around 50 at latest. Now with 20 years' experience I make €65k/y from my day job as a software architect/tech lead/lead dev (working 30h in a 4-day week). My wife and I also run a B2B micro-ISV that's made around €100k/y for the past few years (it was a slow climb to that figure over 10 years).
So, we have a household income of around €165k (~$200k) - certainly more than most in the UK, yet nowhere near what I could make in SV on my own - and still certainly enough money that we hardly need to think about it, and with considered financial planning we can easily retire early.
I'd far prefer to live in Europe than the US - I work way less hours, I get way more vacation days, our healthcare system won't bankrupt us (unfortunately I know firsthand it's far from perfect, but it's definitely still a boon for society), losing my job at any point in my career wouldn't have me out on the street, I don't need to especially fear the police, and (in general) people have a progressive attitude that serves to benefit all of society.
By your own statements isn't this an outlier? You're only in the position you're in because you own a business and have a pension where your employer is contributing 2/3 of the value. How much of that 500k EUR savings is from the business revenue?
Wouldn't it be a more appropriate comparison to look at someone with an "average" pension (whatever that may be for Scotland) and no business revenue?
Wouldn't it be a more appropriate comparison to look at someone with an "average" pension (whatever that may be for Scotland) and no business revenue?
> Wouldn't it be a more appropriate comparison to look at someone with an "average" pension
We're discussing salary of software engineers, firstly because this is HN, and secondly because software engineer salaries in the US are an outlier. Also as I mentioned in my original comment, the figures I gave don't include our pensions at all (as an aside, 55 is the earliest you can currently take anything from private penions in the UK), so I think the comparison is valid enough.
If my wife also had a job as a salaried software engineer, instead of working on our business, our combined income would likely be around €105k, which is still more than enough to be able to live very well and save a lot of money at the same time, as long as you are financially savvy.
We're discussing salary of software engineers, firstly because this is HN, and secondly because software engineer salaries in the US are an outlier. Also as I mentioned in my original comment, the figures I gave don't include our pensions at all (as an aside, 55 is the earliest you can currently take anything from private penions in the UK), so I think the comparison is valid enough.
If my wife also had a job as a salaried software engineer, instead of working on our business, our combined income would likely be around €105k, which is still more than enough to be able to live very well and save a lot of money at the same time, as long as you are financially savvy.
Yes but your plans to retire at 50 are certainly taking your pension into account, no? Or could someone survive in Scotland on $500k? I'm not sure what the investment landscape is there but in the US $500k will only get you about $20k/yr on conservative withdrawal schedules.
Your B2B makes most twice as much as your daily salary. Would it make sense to quit your day job and invest your time in the B2B?
It's not quite as easy a decision as it looks, as the job has a great pension (they put in 2x what I do), and the B2B is very reliant on a very small number of customers. But, still, yes - 2021 is finally going to be the year where I quit to focus on the business!
While that is true to an extent, I think you have to factor in (as far as quality of life goes) the amount of living people do in Europe before they retire. Many work only 37,5 hour weeks, and they have yearly five weeks paid holiday.
And statistics like millionaires per capita show that it is definitely possible to achieve financial freedom in Europe, too. Though US is ahead, except for Switzerland, of course.
And statistics like millionaires per capita show that it is definitely possible to achieve financial freedom in Europe, too. Though US is ahead, except for Switzerland, of course.
I'm not sure if you take work/life balance into respect.
You can have all the money of the world, but if you're only enjoying it at >60 years it's too late.
You can have all the money of the world, but if you're only enjoying it at >60 years it's too late.
[ deleted my original reply - sorry I thought you were replying to another one of my posts ]
True, you probably work harder and are more stressed in the US, but at least you have an option to retire early there on your savings. In the EU, I suspect most developers have very little savings and plan to just work until old age and state pension kicks in.
True, you probably work harder and are more stressed in the US, but at least you have an option to retire early there on your savings. In the EU, I suspect most developers have very little savings and plan to just work until old age and state pension kicks in.
State pension won't be nearly enough to cover your living standards. You'd still pay insurance (less than before retirement though) and taxes off your pension. You still have to save on your own or go with an additional private pension scheme in Germany to somewhat be able to keep same living standards.
This is true, state pension is enough to survive, but not enough to live. You should absolutely put money into work/personal pensions while you are young.
Where I live, we are record savers ( Belgium). Everyone can go on pension at 56 ( much lower pension though) and can have a break for multiple years if they want, during their active career,
that's not possible in the US.
I have 1 year to go for being debt free ( included buying a house) at 32 age.
I also thought it was US citizens that didn't save money?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...
Even then, Europe catched up with productivity and some even doubled it vs. the US ( quoting : https://www.euractiv.com/section/innovation-industry/intervi... )
> Hours worked does not mean more productive.
I have 1 year to go for being debt free ( included buying a house) at 32 age.
I also thought it was US citizens that didn't save money?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...
Even then, Europe catched up with productivity and some even doubled it vs. the US ( quoting : https://www.euractiv.com/section/innovation-industry/intervi... )
> Hours worked does not mean more productive.
I once got a contract offer from Belgium and checked your taxes. They are something like 55% for anything over 60k EUR per year? It means that, even if you get a high paying job, literally most of the money gets taken away. Seem rather hard to save significant amounts in such conditions.
Cost of living is lower?
600€/ month was enough to pay off my house loan. Leaves plenty of room to save money.
I literally save like 3-4/5ths, i do think that's more than average though.
Renting a place here would be 300-900€/month. I know someone who rents at 250€/month in the city with a decent house ( that's an edge case though)
Note: I'm paying off my loan early.
600€/ month was enough to pay off my house loan. Leaves plenty of room to save money.
I literally save like 3-4/5ths, i do think that's more than average though.
Renting a place here would be 300-900€/month. I know someone who rents at 250€/month in the city with a decent house ( that's an edge case though)
Note: I'm paying off my loan early.
And there are places in the US where modest homes in good areas are $90-100k and will get you a similar payment even with less than 20% down. I'm not sure what your point is?
> In the EU, I suspect most developers have very little savings and plan to just work until old age and state pension kicks in.
This is also true of developers in the US. The number of lucky ones who can retire significantly early is a tiny fraction of the market — but companies have very successfully used those dreams to get lots of free overtime from people who didn’t notice where most of the money ends up. FAANG developers do well but even there early retirement is not a reliable plan.
This is also true of developers in the US. The number of lucky ones who can retire significantly early is a tiny fraction of the market — but companies have very successfully used those dreams to get lots of free overtime from people who didn’t notice where most of the money ends up. FAANG developers do well but even there early retirement is not a reliable plan.
That must be due to lifestyle inflation? If you don't save anything on a $100k+ salary, you have only yourself to blame (assuming the savings weren't wiped by medical bills or some other calamity). I suspect these people prioritize their McMansion, changing family cars every 3-5 years or funding fancy out-of-state schools for their children over freedom from work.
Have you looked at the cost if living in the Bay Area since 1990? $100k is not exactly buying you a high-end lifestyle involving private schools in a city where under something like $120k qualifies a family as low-income. Both parents in high-income jobs gets closer but then you’re talking about additional expenses like housecleaning, nannies, dining out, and probably multiple cars.
SF is an extreme but most of the high paying tech jobs cluster in areas which are closer to that cost of living - doing well, sure, but far from rich and definitely not able to count on being set for life since one illness, untimely layoff, etc. can easily derail a career.
That’s not to say that there aren’t ways to economize but there’s a long history of lazy editorializing about how kids these days are spending too much on avocado toast while studiously ignoring the data showing that the big problems are healthcare, housing, student loans, etc.
SF is an extreme but most of the high paying tech jobs cluster in areas which are closer to that cost of living - doing well, sure, but far from rich and definitely not able to count on being set for life since one illness, untimely layoff, etc. can easily derail a career.
That’s not to say that there aren’t ways to economize but there’s a long history of lazy editorializing about how kids these days are spending too much on avocado toast while studiously ignoring the data showing that the big problems are healthcare, housing, student loans, etc.
The Bay Area is an outlier as one of the most expensive locals in the world to live in. The median developer salary in the US is somewhere around $100-110k, and the vast majority of those people live outside of SF/NYC and work for boring companies doing boring forms-over-data work.
You can save a shitload of money in Iowa making $95k/yr.
You can save a shitload of money in Iowa making $95k/yr.
Working for tech in the Bay Area you have a pretty reasonable and predictable path to financial independence in maybe a decade or so of work (so, early 30s if you start right after school). After which you can have any wlb you want for the rest of your life. You don't even have to work at absolute top companies like FAANG to achieve that, although it helps (FAANG & hitting L6+ you have a decent shot even at FatFIRE)
This is nearly impossible in Europe except by extreme luck. Enjoy your 40+ years of sub 40h/w work ahead of you with slightly longer vacations. While I can have a life long vacation after my 30s. Perhaps even spending it in Europe.
This is nearly impossible in Europe except by extreme luck. Enjoy your 40+ years of sub 40h/w work ahead of you with slightly longer vacations. While I can have a life long vacation after my 30s. Perhaps even spending it in Europe.
As a person who travels (or use to??) yes it is.
Even the best parts of American (I owned a condo in Snowbird) are demonstrable worse than most of Northern Europe.
It is everything from the schools, food and health. America is still a place of personal reinvention but not of social capital. In Norway, every single person is a local currency millionaire. Every man,woman and child has wealth worth over USD 250,000 due to the Oil Fund.
Sweden has more billionaire per capita than America. The main difference is time. Time for life and time culture.
Even the best parts of American (I owned a condo in Snowbird) are demonstrable worse than most of Northern Europe.
It is everything from the schools, food and health. America is still a place of personal reinvention but not of social capital. In Norway, every single person is a local currency millionaire. Every man,woman and child has wealth worth over USD 250,000 due to the Oil Fund.
Sweden has more billionaire per capita than America. The main difference is time. Time for life and time culture.
None of those are useful to you when you are young and driven by ambitions.
These perks are nice when you are old or have a family.
These perks are nice when you are old or have a family.
That’s the whole point. I, as a young and healthy European, prefer to earn half or less than I would make in the USA, but live in a society where almost nobody is left behind. The benefits of living in a place where you earn enough to have a decent live even with the minimum wage, are above my personal profit to me.
I am a young not so healthy European and would very much prefer a better wage than these perks.
That’s a pretty sweeping dismissal: many millions of people need healthcare even when young, and it’s not having a family is something you start in your 50s. Having a more democratic political system is also important when you’re young since you’ll have many decades to live with the impact of decisions about things like climate change or racking up debt irresponsibly.
If one is ambitious I would advise to run away from Europe.
cap and cope
Employers pay half of social security, health insurance and stuff like that on top of the salary. The costs for a company to hire one employee for 60k gross is about 75k. US dollar does not equal Euro. 75k Euro is currently around 92k USD. The difference is not that big.
I'm not from US, but my understanding is that when people quote the US salary figure it also doesn't include all costs that employer has to hire an employee.
Correct. It costs's a lot to hire a new employee. I'd say for a small/medium size company hiring an engineer in the 100k-200k range, the cost of hiring is easily at least 6 months of that person's salary if not more.
That too, of course, but I didn't mean expenses like office space, training etc. but things like additional benefits/insurance that employer pays in addition to salary that can be considered part of compensation package but don't get paid to the employee.
Typically the employer cost in the US for an employee is between 1.5-3x their salary cost because the employer is paying things like health care and taxes.
Whoa, that's a huge range. Do you know what number is typical for (higher paid, 100K+) tech workers?
2x cost is typical, so if your salary is 80K then the employer is likely paying another 80k for things like social security and health insurance. Keep in mind that the employee will still have to pay quite a bit for health insurance, and that is largely driven by number of dependents (spouse and children).
> so if your salary is 80K then the employer is likely paying another 80k for things like social security and health insurance
Is that 80K gross salary? If it is, that would mean that the ratio of take_home_pay/total_cost_for_employer for US is smaller than in much of Europe (which is surprising to me).
Here is what numbers for that kind of salary would look like in Croatia:
Gross yearly salary: 80 000 USD
Total cost for employer: 93 200 USD
Take home pay: 48 088 USD
(Note - this puts you in the highest tax bracket, almost no one makes that much.)
Is that 80K gross salary? If it is, that would mean that the ratio of take_home_pay/total_cost_for_employer for US is smaller than in much of Europe (which is surprising to me).
Here is what numbers for that kind of salary would look like in Croatia:
Gross yearly salary: 80 000 USD
Total cost for employer: 93 200 USD
Take home pay: 48 088 USD
(Note - this puts you in the highest tax bracket, almost no one makes that much.)
I should point out that I'm considering the 2X to be the total operational costs to the employer for having an employee. In other words, if I am billing a client $X per hour then my expectation is that my salary will never be more than $X/2 per hour.
As kasey_junk points out, an employee will have federal income tax, social security and medicare payments as well as health insurance premiums removed from their paychecks. Some employers also offer additional insurance policies such as short term disability, long term disability, and life insurance. Those are optional and would be additional deductions from the employee's paycheck.
As kasey_junk points out, an employee will have federal income tax, social security and medicare payments as well as health insurance premiums removed from their paychecks. Some employers also offer additional insurance policies such as short term disability, long term disability, and life insurance. Those are optional and would be additional deductions from the employee's paycheck.
It really depends on a lot of tax factors & health insurance but in the US your take home on 80k would be higher than 48k. An example single person with no kids would have 12400 in federal income tax and 6k in social security/Medicare taxes. They’d also pay the employee portion of their health insurance premium which can be anything from 0 to a couple hundred per month but is paid pretax.
The highest federal tax rate in the US is 37% and that’s only taxed on income over 518k.
The highest federal tax rate in the US is 37% and that’s only taxed on income over 518k.
It's not just software developers, generally people don't make much more or much less money than one another. There are exceptions of course but in general the low level job earns you the min wage and as your career improves you earn 1.2X, 1.5X, 2X, 3X and if you are a big deal you may earn 4X-5X and that's it as employee.
It's not even about the taxes and I don't think it's about the supply and demand too. In Europe, including the UK, there are not many high growth VC funded companies, so most companies operate on thin margins and there's not much room to wiggle.
That said, even 200GBP/EUR increase on your salary usually goes long way.
It's not even about the taxes and I don't think it's about the supply and demand too. In Europe, including the UK, there are not many high growth VC funded companies, so most companies operate on thin margins and there's not much room to wiggle.
That said, even 200GBP/EUR increase on your salary usually goes long way.
It's just different. Why would developers in Europe make the same money as developers in China/US/Argentina? Different places, different salaries.
Personally I envy the high salaries in the US (for devs) but I wouldn't move to the US because in Europe I got 30 days of vacation plus public holidays (which makes around 45 days off per year... paid) working full-time (35 hours/week)... and anyway, if one wants to make serious money as a developer, the only way is to bootstrap your own SaSS; working for others (in Europe or in US) only gets you so far.
Personally I envy the high salaries in the US (for devs) but I wouldn't move to the US because in Europe I got 30 days of vacation plus public holidays (which makes around 45 days off per year... paid) working full-time (35 hours/week)... and anyway, if one wants to make serious money as a developer, the only way is to bootstrap your own SaSS; working for others (in Europe or in US) only gets you so far.
I find it really funny how often European and US developers are incredulous of each other's salaries :)
Supply and demand mostly. The EU means companies have access to vast pools of talent across the whole bloc and beyond. There are not as many huge purely tech companies like FAANG here.
"Supply and demand mostly. The EU means companies have access to vast pools of talent across the whole bloc and beyond."
I don't think that's it.
I was looking for work in Europe 20 years ago, and they had very few tech people there back then compared to the US, and were desperate to import talent from other countries. However, their salaries were still very low compared to the US.
I don't think that's it.
I was looking for work in Europe 20 years ago, and they had very few tech people there back then compared to the US, and were desperate to import talent from other countries. However, their salaries were still very low compared to the US.
I would seem they weren't desperate enough, would it not?
From Wikipedia [0]: A demand schedule [...] represents the amount of a certain good that buyers are willing and able to purchase at various prices.
That demand is large at low salaries but low at higher salaries just means that demand isn't very high (or as high as it is in US).
[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
From Wikipedia [0]: A demand schedule [...] represents the amount of a certain good that buyers are willing and able to purchase at various prices.
That demand is large at low salaries but low at higher salaries just means that demand isn't very high (or as high as it is in US).
[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
Maybe so, but 20 years ago it wasn't a case of having "vast talent pools" in the EU, as they just didn't exist.
Also, there are limits to what companies can afford to pay while still having a viable business model. They can be maximally desperate for talent, but still limited to paying only up to a certain amount.
Also, there are limits to what companies can afford to pay while still having a viable business model. They can be maximally desperate for talent, but still limited to paying only up to a certain amount.
> Also, there are limits to what companies can afford to pay while still having a viable business model. They can be maximally desperate for talent, but still limited to paying only up to a certain amount.
That's part of the demand curve, as commonly understood in economics, even if we might colloquially say that "there is a large demand".
That's part of the demand curve, as commonly understood in economics, even if we might colloquially say that "there is a large demand".
If there was high demand then we would see salaries rise quickly year over year.
I have the same question about Canada.
Canada is even more puzzling. You can cross the border from Vancouver to Seattle and triple your salary, pay less in income taxes, and live in a city with less rent.
All over less than 100 miles.
All over less than 100 miles.
How much of the Canadian salary is taken in taxes?
For me (in BC), around 25-30% and I'm slightly below 100k. The deduction is usually a little more than if you use those online tax calculators.
For me ends up being 28%-ish percent if my math is correct. Ether way 25-30% is a good ballpark
I suppose that people really value being in Canada.
Some of us do, but I think majority would hop on an airplane at a drop of a hat. Indeed, if it weren't for pandemic I myself would be looking to move to the US.
Staying in Canada is very hard to justify for a software dev.
Staying in Canada is very hard to justify for a software dev.
It is weird, right? Same time zone as the US, so you can't use the argument "Europe has easier access to eastern European / Indian developers in the proper time zone"...
I don't think this happens across all trades either. Last I looked, a mechanic would make similar money in either country.
I don't think this happens across all trades either. Last I looked, a mechanic would make similar money in either country.
For some reason Japan pays software developers peanuts as well, which I don't get since some of my favorite software comes from Japan (Nintendo, FromSoftware, Square Enix, Sony)
It's the US and specifically the Bay Area that's the outlier here. Because it has a few hugely rich tech companies and is pumped full of VC cash.
Supply and demand I would venture.
High taxes, but on the other hand you receive: a top-notch public healthcare, arguably one of the best standards of living in the world (good ratio of earnings vs. expenses, strong labor law, relatively affordable rental prices).
> High taxes
This can't be the answer since we're talking about pre-tax salaries. On the other hand, higher taxes just mean that the difference in post-tax salaries between Europe and the US is even bigger than it seems initially.
This can't be the answer since we're talking about pre-tax salaries. On the other hand, higher taxes just mean that the difference in post-tax salaries between Europe and the US is even bigger than it seems initially.
At least in Germany the employers pay about half of mandatory social insurances such as healthcare, unemployment, pension etc.
This is usually not considered when people talk about pre-tax salaries. Ultimately though that’s just accounting, really that is part of the money you earn.
This is usually not considered when people talk about pre-tax salaries. Ultimately though that’s just accounting, really that is part of the money you earn.
> This is usually not considered when people talk about pre-tax salaries.
The same is true for US (I think - maybe someone from there can correct me if it's wrong).
The same is true for US (I think - maybe someone from there can correct me if it's wrong).
I've lived in Italy, Germany, and the US, and I would argue that tech workers recieve all 3 of those things in the US as well. Unless you are saying everyone gets those 3 things in EU and not just middle class and up.
What's notable about the EU is that everyone gets those benefits whereas in the US only upper class has that.
Right, so perhaps one hypothesis is that EU tech salaries are so much lower than US because EU tech salaries have to subsidize lower class much more than US salaries.
Even still though, pre-tax EU salaries seem really low compared to pre-tax US salaries
Even still though, pre-tax EU salaries seem really low compared to pre-tax US salaries
Regarding your first point, I don't really see it that way since the total value of EU tech salaries is probably a drop in the bucket compared to all other industries.
I'd much rather be in the EU making EU wages than in the US making US wages. Europeans working in the US may not be in the same risk category as US Citizens (in the US) as they can always move back to EU if they face a health crisis.
I'd much rather be in the EU making EU wages than in the US making US wages. Europeans working in the US may not be in the same risk category as US Citizens (in the US) as they can always move back to EU if they face a health crisis.
The quality of US healthcare is better for the average person and the waiting lists are much lower or do not exist. Many from my country will travel to the US for healthcare and paid. So many advancements only become available 10 years later. Free health is never unlimited you always have to make tradeoffs.
Where in Europe? Europe (nor EU) doesn't universally have top-notch public healthcare or best standard of living.
Indeed, a lot of European nations have good healthcare coverage (i.e. doesn't cost much), but poor overall healthcare (low quality doctors, high waiting times, poor access to specialization). Some nations in EU are even developing nations with massive ghettos and extreme poverty the severity of which doesn't even come close to the worst states like Mississippi. I would guess mainly just the blue banana[0] of EU and the nordic countries have the highest quality of life since they have access to the most wealth.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Banana
That's not true, EU healthcare is excellent.
But if you have all the money of the world, you could get an extra bit in the US for some health issues. In most cases, it's not worth the cost.
Even then, some Arab sjeiks regularily travel to europe for advanced surgery. So I think that would contradict the first statement.
Eg. The severely sick sultan of Omar last year in Belgium with a 1700 person delegation.
6 covid vaccines have some dependency on Belgium. The Pfizer one was shipped from Belgium to the US.
But if you have all the money of the world, you could get an extra bit in the US for some health issues. In most cases, it's not worth the cost.
Even then, some Arab sjeiks regularily travel to europe for advanced surgery. So I think that would contradict the first statement.
Eg. The severely sick sultan of Omar last year in Belgium with a 1700 person delegation.
6 covid vaccines have some dependency on Belgium. The Pfizer one was shipped from Belgium to the US.
Right, I'm not questioning the quality of blue banana or nordic country healthcare. But... are you willing to vouch for the quality of healthcare in Spain or Italy, or some of the eastern EU countries like Romania? Because I lived in Naples and Rome for a combined 5 years and I was not impressed with the quality of healthcare I received compared to what I'm used to in America (for one, doctors don't usually come in with lit cigarettes in america, though I'm told "that's a Naples thing").
Are you willing to vouch for healthcare in Alabama?
Almost every person making decent money I know pays for private healthcare and avoids the government-run system whenever possible [0]. No lines and much better service. When someone gets a very rare disease, people often need to fundraise millions to go to the US. Many kinds of treatments simply aren't available.
[0] for big ticket stuff there's usually no private alternative, if you're dying from cancer you'll probably have to go to a government facility and hope for the best
[0] for big ticket stuff there's usually no private alternative, if you're dying from cancer you'll probably have to go to a government facility and hope for the best
Legitimate question: are the differences in standard of living something you could buy somewhere else if you had 2x or 3x the total income? Or is it more intangible?
Lol worth 100k?
Yes. Nobody in Europe can even believe that things like ambulance rides could be anything but free. Those stories sound like depressing dystopia from a post-apocalyptic sci-fi movie.
The swiss right in the center of europe can very well imagine
https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/2500-franken-fuer-62-kilomet...
https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/2500-franken-fuer-62-kilomet...
For nearly all US tech. workers an ambulance ride will be free or a nominal deductible.
Wait, what? No. That is definitely not true. We have very good insurance, and every ambulance ride has cost a fortune.
You have insurance where an ambulance ride doesn’t just apply to your deductible?
I believe it but have never had an insurance plan like that.
I believe it but have never had an insurance plan like that.
I've had insurance from Arbor (Blue Cross) pre-ACA, from Erin's job at the Latin School (Blue Cross) pre-ACA, from Matasano (United), from BCBS on the ACA marketplace (and now at Fly, but that doesn't matter b/c...) and ambulance trips in all 4 of those, and all of them cost a fortune.
Later
Erin also points out that beyond the deductible cost, your ambulance has to be in-network, or it's not covered at all --- that bit our family too.
I'm a defender of our insurance system, weird as that sounds, but even I won't try to stick up for how we handle ambulances.
Later
Erin also points out that beyond the deductible cost, your ambulance has to be in-network, or it's not covered at all --- that bit our family too.
I'm a defender of our insurance system, weird as that sounds, but even I won't try to stick up for how we handle ambulances.
The ambulance rates where I live (Vancouver, BC, Canada) always make me blink:
Insured: $50 flat rate, ground or air.
Uninsured:
$848 flat fee (ground service)
$4,394 per hour (helicopter)
http://www.bcehs.ca/about/billing/fees
Insured: $50 flat rate, ground or air.
Uninsured:
$848 flat fee (ground service)
$4,394 per hour (helicopter)
http://www.bcehs.ca/about/billing/fees
If you think only about yourself, of course not. If you think about your family, like your children and grandchildren that may not work in IT or a similar well paying industry, then it starts to become worth it. You know they will have an acceptable quality of life whatever happens. Years after your death.
Of course you can work a few years in California and move back to Europe. It takes some courage and a lot of people prefer to not move abroad.
Of course you can work a few years in California and move back to Europe. It takes some courage and a lot of people prefer to not move abroad.
But... why are you excluding the top 5% of companies? That seems like it's precisely the answer to this question, there are several large companies with engineers in Berlin that pay in this range. levels.fyi shows numerous data points of L5 engineers at Amazon's Berlin office getting
~€110,000 for example.
I would guess that GP doesn't feel qualified... Earning a shitload of money once you've joined FAANG is the easy part, hard part is getting hired by FAANG in the first place.
I guess it's because not everybody can work at the top 5% of companies. Not only because the entry level is higher than on average companies... it's also a question of physics: the top 5% of companies cannot hire 100% of the pool of developers.
So, the vast majority of developers out there (including HN) will never work for a top 5% company.
So, the vast majority of developers out there (including HN) will never work for a top 5% company.
Also reflects my experience. There are big companies in Germany where you can basically stay forever and auto-progress into the ~100k range even as a "plain" software engineer. However while still holding this title you will have more tasks that require leadership.
Yes you can.
I am in my 30s, I live in Berlin, I make 100k+ EUR in base salary. This does not include my equity package.
I am a mid-level engineer and I don't lead a team.
I have seen a few offers in that range. In my experience they are for companies that have the HQ in SF (with offices in Berlin). These are often large companies (300+ people) with a product that has reached product market fit, have good funding, high growth rates, brand names, late stage/pre-IPO startups, tech public companies, etc. Basically any company that is used to paying high salaries for engineers.
These are companies that deliberately aim to be in the top percentiles of compensation in any market. These aren't companies that claim to pay "competitive salaries".
Naturally there aren't many of such companies (that is why they are in the top percentile) but you can find them if you look around. They are always hiring. The recruiting processes may be a bit more challenging but they are not rocket science.
100k+ seems like a rare and pretty lucky exception for a mid-senior and non-lead-position in Berlin. I consider myself a senior and I'm looking around for a new position for a while now, never stumbled over a 100k-opportunity. Mind saying who you work for or what's your rough skill set?
It sucks that people keep using gross salary instead of net because it really makes a difference.
Lets take an example, with a yearly salary of £100,000 / $122,247 / €109,654... (all same amount)
In the UK you would take home £66,533 / $89,412 / €73,088. (£2k less if you are in Scotland due to 1% higher tax rate)
In Germany, you would take home £52,911 / €58,117 / $71,102.
In Austin TX, you would take home £68,704 / €75,451 / $92,330
In California, you would take home £62,600 / €68,748 / $84,127.
Location really matters for salary and living in Austin for example nets you £15793 more a year as a stark contrast to Germany but comparing Cali to UK is less impressive with the same salary. But avg Cali devs salaries are a lot higher ($131,425 [0] vs $57,930 [1])
As for the question, in my opinion the glass ceiling for software developer is just much lower in European countries and people will try to defend their European country with very valid healthcare arguments and having more rights with holidays and such. If I could I would move over to America in a heartbeat due to many factors from products being much cheaper, being the forefront of tech, culture, lower average taxes across the country and about double the average software developer salary from a UK perspective to me.
Side note but... Earning £6k (net) less a year due to taxes can be the difference of £159,405 over 15 years in a index fund at 7% depositing £500 a month (6k a year).
I used https://salaryaftertax.com/ for the salaries feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in any of the locations.
[0] https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries/CA
[1] https://www.indeed.co.uk/career/software-engineer/salaries/E...
Lets take an example, with a yearly salary of £100,000 / $122,247 / €109,654... (all same amount)
In the UK you would take home £66,533 / $89,412 / €73,088. (£2k less if you are in Scotland due to 1% higher tax rate)
In Germany, you would take home £52,911 / €58,117 / $71,102.
In Austin TX, you would take home £68,704 / €75,451 / $92,330
In California, you would take home £62,600 / €68,748 / $84,127.
Location really matters for salary and living in Austin for example nets you £15793 more a year as a stark contrast to Germany but comparing Cali to UK is less impressive with the same salary. But avg Cali devs salaries are a lot higher ($131,425 [0] vs $57,930 [1])
As for the question, in my opinion the glass ceiling for software developer is just much lower in European countries and people will try to defend their European country with very valid healthcare arguments and having more rights with holidays and such. If I could I would move over to America in a heartbeat due to many factors from products being much cheaper, being the forefront of tech, culture, lower average taxes across the country and about double the average software developer salary from a UK perspective to me.
Side note but... Earning £6k (net) less a year due to taxes can be the difference of £159,405 over 15 years in a index fund at 7% depositing £500 a month (6k a year).
I used https://salaryaftertax.com/ for the salaries feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in any of the locations.
[0] https://www.indeed.com/career/software-engineer/salaries/CA
[1] https://www.indeed.co.uk/career/software-engineer/salaries/E...
> It sucks that people keep using gross salary instead of net because it really makes a difference.
Gross is better because what every individual takes home after taxes varies (if you are single, married, have kids, church taxes?, solidarity taxes, etc.).
> In Germany, you would take home £52,911 / €58,117 / $71,102.
Based on what tax group? You see, it's not that simple. Those numbers could be true for people who are single and are living in the east of Germany... but they could be false if they are married and living in the west while paying church taxes.
Gross is better because what every individual takes home after taxes varies (if you are single, married, have kids, church taxes?, solidarity taxes, etc.).
> In Germany, you would take home £52,911 / €58,117 / $71,102.
Based on what tax group? You see, it's not that simple. Those numbers could be true for people who are single and are living in the east of Germany... but they could be false if they are married and living in the west while paying church taxes.
Yes it depends on a particular situation, but the net salary is what really matters in the end. It's better to compare meaningful net salary, even with some gotchas, even as a ballpark figure.
Gross salary is kinda meaningless (from employee perspective) when comparing offers in different tax regimes.
Gross salary is kinda meaningless (from employee perspective) when comparing offers in different tax regimes.
But then you also have to consider what services will be provided by the state, payed with the high taxes that you have to pay out of pocket other places.
The numbers for Germany seem weird, just checked for a single person without kids in Berlin and get 71k€ net.
Anyhow do not forget that these amounts buy you different things as well. I can only speak for Germany, but here the „tax“ also includes health insurance and other social securities. So if unemployment, a kid or sickness happens to that single person, they don’t need as much rainy days funds. Also a lot of things are cheaper in Germany, e.g. Housing, Groceries, etc. but you mention that already.
Anyhow do not forget that these amounts buy you different things as well. I can only speak for Germany, but here the „tax“ also includes health insurance and other social securities. So if unemployment, a kid or sickness happens to that single person, they don’t need as much rainy days funds. Also a lot of things are cheaper in Germany, e.g. Housing, Groceries, etc. but you mention that already.
London, not Berlin, but a better comparison than USA:
I know several London Engineers in the £80k-£120k bracket. I know as many Engineers at other companies in the £40-£60k range. I don't know any in between.
Whats the difference? Not much in terms of 'years experience', but I know two things: throwing a poorly specified problem at any of the first group will get me a solution; at the second will probably not. Everyone in a company pretty much gets comped at the same category. There is no 50->100k Engineering path besides switching
I know several London Engineers in the £80k-£120k bracket. I know as many Engineers at other companies in the £40-£60k range. I don't know any in between.
Whats the difference? Not much in terms of 'years experience', but I know two things: throwing a poorly specified problem at any of the first group will get me a solution; at the second will probably not. Everyone in a company pretty much gets comped at the same category. There is no 50->100k Engineering path besides switching
It might just be a small sample size, I don't see why there wouldn't be plenty of people in the £60-80k range. And there should certainly be more people around £60-80k than £80-120k.
oh yes, I wasn't meaning to imply there weren't, just that I don't know any.
Several finance companies will pay on the scale of £400k TC for very strong engineers in London
How strong? Are we talking people like Brendan Gregg or just "tech lead" types like "the tech lead on YT"?
The sort engineer of that can confidently ship large performant systems quickly, but there's lots of people like this who nobody's ever heard of.
Can second this. Bank or fintech in London and a senior dev can do 100k+.
Go freelance is my answer to stagnant European salaries. I make around double what I’d make as perm doing the same jobs, with long term contracts that usually last about as long as I’d stay in a perm position anyway. (I’m in the Netherlands but I think it’s pretty comparable)
Im living in NL also, and after interviewing and reaching the ceiling for a web engineer (80k perm contract) I really would like to get into contracting for an US company. Was there a particular website that you used or any advice you could give me ? Thanks!
I actually once did a short contract for a YC company who I found on the monthly "Looking for freelancer" thread here. That was quite a few years ago now though, I don't think those threads have as good a signal:noise ratio as they did, unfortunately.
I've not really had much luck finding freelance contracts with US companies, as the ones that have good rates usually (understandably) want people in the same timezone. All my contracts since 2013 have been in the Netherlands.
I've not really had much luck finding freelance contracts with US companies, as the ones that have good rates usually (understandably) want people in the same timezone. All my contracts since 2013 have been in the Netherlands.
I second this. I was making 60K in Hamburg and my freelance was giving me 1.5x for 20 hrs less (weekly and it was a client from U.S.A.). I had that job because i liked the people I worked with.
Anything enterprise-related and in high demand (Scala, Big Data, modern devops, probably also just competent and modern Java) pays 700-1000 EUR per day in the contracting market for the senior skill level. Assuming 5 weeks off and 10 days of national holidays, that translates to 157k-225k EUR. However, Ruby is practically not used in enterprise setting, and Python is mostly usually used for specialized jobs (automated testing or data science, both of which require more knowledge than just backend Python). Out of the technologies you mentioned, Javascript seems like a surest way to high-paying contracts, you just need to get good at React or whatever else is in demand currently.
One thing to keep in mind as well is that the disposable income after cost of living (and the quality of life) may actually be lower on 100k in some parts of the US than on 60k in Berlin. I'd certainly much rather live in Berlin on 60k than in SF on 100k.
Sure, but a "Senior" developer can earn 150k in Chicago (and that is without going into finance, double it if you go that route). Not sure how exactly to compare cost of living, but I suspect Chicago is "cheaper" than Berlin in most metrics.
Sure but you don’t have to live in SF to make 100K in software. 100K+ is not at all uncommon for a developer with 10 years experience in a low cost of living area.
It definitely is, especially in the more well funded startups. I have several friends that earn that much and I've also paid engineers in Berlin that much (all of them very good seniors, tho). Salaries have gone up a lot in the last few years, but you have to change jobs and shop around a bit
Yes but not as an employee. I'm a freelance python developer in Brussels, Belgium with just over 10 years exp and 32 years of age. The jump from employee to freelance wasn't easy but I sure wish I'd done it sooner. Short term and urgent contracts are worth a lot more than long term (2weeks versus 6months). You need to know your worth. I always calculate "how much time/costs" will you save as a result of my software: I want a fair piece of that. I focus on those shorter contracts. This year brought me almost twice what you're looking for (before tax). And a good accountant friend helps me keep as much as I legally can. Next year, I'm hoping to finally hit the 250k mark. As an employee just 2 years ago, I was amongst the "high paid employees", bringing in 55k net a year as a comparison. I suggest you look into doing the same with either becoming independent or starting a 1 person company. Contact an accountant ASAP to get the best advice on which structures best fit for you.
Do you always freelance locally, or remotely as well?
I've always stuck with very local (in the same city where I reside). I'm not against looking further or even remote but I've never had to look too far. It's normally a question of hours between posting my availability+updated CV and finding my next contract.
Find a remote job with a US company. You will have to compromise your working hours (work at night), but you can go beyond €100k easily. Our company (seed stage startup) has an open position for a remote senior software engineer for €100k+.
I calculated with insurance ect. I'd have to earn double of what I earn in germany and it would be illegal to work as a full time contractor for just one company too.
If the company is serious about hiring you they can create a subsidiary in Germany. I have some colleagues in Berlin that work for US companies (albeit larger ones), they all have GmbHs in Germany through which they employ people here.
guess I have to work my way up a bit further :)
It's not illegal to work for one company. I assume you mean Scheinselbstständigkeit. I've been doing it for 6 years and an accountant here in Berlin handles all my taxes.
it's not illegal for the contractor.
technically the contractor has a right to regular employment but as long as they don't have a local subsidiary, local laws can't make a foreign company employ you, nor can they force you to cancel your contract, because that would go against your right to contract with anyone you like.
technically the contractor has a right to regular employment but as long as they don't have a local subsidiary, local laws can't make a foreign company employ you, nor can they force you to cancel your contract, because that would go against your right to contract with anyone you like.
In what world is this or any salary increase worth (constantly) working at night? Also if you work for a foreign company there are other things to consider in Germany.. health insurance will be different, taxes will be even more complicated..
I worked nights, it's pretty nice. Most people have never thought of it like this.
You are awake both in the day and in the night. If you work during the day then all your freetime has to be spent at night.
If you work at night, all your freetime gets to be spent in the glorious day, you know while people are out and about and shops/restaurants are open.
remember you only sleep 8 hours at night, and to be fair in a US Europe situation your work hours merely overlap at night and it's most likely you work from 3pm to 10pm.
so your time spend relaxing/working HAS NOT CHANGED. The quality of you relaxing time however has dramatically improved, and so has your working time.
I'd tell anyone GO FOR IT.
You are awake both in the day and in the night. If you work during the day then all your freetime has to be spent at night.
If you work at night, all your freetime gets to be spent in the glorious day, you know while people are out and about and shops/restaurants are open.
remember you only sleep 8 hours at night, and to be fair in a US Europe situation your work hours merely overlap at night and it's most likely you work from 3pm to 10pm.
so your time spend relaxing/working HAS NOT CHANGED. The quality of you relaxing time however has dramatically improved, and so has your working time.
I'd tell anyone GO FOR IT.
I used to do that when working on my PhD in a research center. I started with lunch at 14:00 (right after waking up) then worked until dawn.
Silence, availability of computers (it was in the 90's),peuple gong home around 17,...
It means no life outside work of course, but I was there alone for three or five months and it was awesome.
Silence, availability of computers (it was in the 90's),peuple gong home around 17,...
It means no life outside work of course, but I was there alone for three or five months and it was awesome.
The time difference is perfect for more extreme night owls, especially the 6 hour east coast difference.
Edit: Also, to take your question a bit more literally - it's pretty easy to see how large enough salary difference would be worth it, since you can just retire after few years.
Edit: Also, to take your question a bit more literally - it's pretty easy to see how large enough salary difference would be worth it, since you can just retire after few years.
The difference from 60k must be huge to retire after "a few years" though. Even if you live somewhere super cheap and don't spend any money and don't have any family to care for..
I should have phrased it differently. Of course there will be people that would do it. I am not one of them.
I should have phrased it differently. Of course there will be people that would do it. I am not one of them.
Yes, for retirement it would have to be something like 400K-500K, which seems to exist in the bay area but is probably not readily available remotely.
[deleted]
I answered the author's question and provided a path. May not be the only path. Whether they want to do it is their decision.
We highly encourage relocating to Canada so the engineer doesn't have to work at night and we take care of immigration. But staying in Berlin is possible.
We highly encourage relocating to Canada so the engineer doesn't have to work at night and we take care of immigration. But staying in Berlin is possible.
This is the correct answer. But minus the downside you note. I’ve worked for American companies since moving to England then France, and I only ever work normal hours.
Maybe a 7pm call once a week, but beyond that, you just hand things off during the 3 hours a day that you overlap.
And you make 5-10X what the local shops pay. It’s insane.
Maybe a 7pm call once a week, but beyond that, you just hand things off during the 3 hours a day that you overlap.
And you make 5-10X what the local shops pay. It’s insane.
This is where you read "Rich dad, poor dad" and realise you don't get rich by being an employee.
Stop thinking about how you can earn and focus on how you can add value to others.
You've got to step outside of the comfort zone of a salary and take on the responsibility of managing to deliver real revenues to others. When you improve someone's life, they'll pay you to keep doing that.
Stop thinking about how you can earn and focus on how you can add value to others.
You've got to step outside of the comfort zone of a salary and take on the responsibility of managing to deliver real revenues to others. When you improve someone's life, they'll pay you to keep doing that.
I'm a mid-level engineer as well. I'd say only a few lucky people make €100k in Europe, and most of these people are not working for EU companies. If you are aiming for >80k this continent is a dead-end at the moment, I live in an average EU country and my salary is ridiculously low, 80k puts you in C-level territory.
Which country or which area in Europe? I’m mid level in the US, but in nyc. At 130k, not faang.
You could go into freelancing. For normal developer gigs in Germany you'll usually get 70-80€/hour. Contracts are often for 6 months and will get extended in 6 months steps. Depending on how much you work you can make 150k+. Still not comparable to SV salaries, but better than being a permanent employee in Germany.
You also have to pay employer contributions to insurance and you don’t make money, if you don’t have a contract, are sick or on vacation.
So you also have to make at least 150k+ to make up for that. If you were to make significantly less than that, say 120k you’re probably worse off in the end.
So you also have to make at least 150k+ to make up for that. If you were to make significantly less than that, say 120k you’re probably worse off in the end.
How do you come to 120k as break even point? I'm quite curious as which factors you have considered to get to that number.
Going freelance is likely the right answer in Europe. Many companies are happy to pay 400+ EUR daily for a qualified developer, on longer term engagements.
The last pure engineering gig I did (specialised mobile work while trying to figure out what to do next) a few years ago was for a german multinational company and paid around 700/day. Remote work from home (Belgium, low CoL). That was a long running engagement for about a year.
They were happy to extend pretty much indefinitely but I ultimately started a new entrepreneurial project. At ~220 billable days that amounted to ~155k/year gross.
The last pure engineering gig I did (specialised mobile work while trying to figure out what to do next) a few years ago was for a german multinational company and paid around 700/day. Remote work from home (Belgium, low CoL). That was a long running engagement for about a year.
They were happy to extend pretty much indefinitely but I ultimately started a new entrepreneurial project. At ~220 billable days that amounted to ~155k/year gross.
Just adding some numbers for reference: I'm a Swedish developer, senior, and with over 5 years logged with my current employer. I earn €52000 per year before taxes, netting €3200 per month after all taxes are paid.
About the same here in Finland. Getting 50k, is easy whether you have 5 years experience or 20 years. Getting 60-70k isn't impossible if you haggle and have a good niche, but gaining more as a sysadmin/developer is hard short of going down the self-employed/contractor route which is a headache of its own.
Of course you don't need that much money to have excellent quality of life; paying €100/month for full-time daycare, having 5ish weeks of paid leave, good transport, good libraries, good social services, and similar means that if I had more money I wouldn't know what to do with it!
Of course you don't need that much money to have excellent quality of life; paying €100/month for full-time daycare, having 5ish weeks of paid leave, good transport, good libraries, good social services, and similar means that if I had more money I wouldn't know what to do with it!
Same, but a contractor since a few years back. Similar numbers, only I work 25-30 hour weeks and usually take 8 weeks off.
Also, my M.Sc. degree, my kids daycare/after school and a relative's cancer treatment were/are all "free". Especially the last part, not having to worry about the wellbeing of loved ones is probably the strongest motivator for being a proponent of our system.
Also, my M.Sc. degree, my kids daycare/after school and a relative's cancer treatment were/are all "free". Especially the last part, not having to worry about the wellbeing of loved ones is probably the strongest motivator for being a proponent of our system.
I think the there are two important things that aren't being mentioned:
First; in Europe, you don't pay for free healthcare with your taxes. It's free, after all. There's nothing stopping you from prioritizing QoL over money and _still_ getting all the benefits of the generous European welfare state.
And second; I don't want to be in the shoes of European IT companies if (when?) the US implements Medicare for all. If top talent is willing to move from Europe to the US for higher salaries right _now_, what do you think will happen when Europe no longer has its biggest advantage - public healthcare?
EDIT:
I forgot to mention something important about #1 - that because of this, it's disingenuous to say that you "pay" for free healthcare with higher taxes. You don't. It's just that the cost of funding falls on your shoulders.
First; in Europe, you don't pay for free healthcare with your taxes. It's free, after all. There's nothing stopping you from prioritizing QoL over money and _still_ getting all the benefits of the generous European welfare state.
And second; I don't want to be in the shoes of European IT companies if (when?) the US implements Medicare for all. If top talent is willing to move from Europe to the US for higher salaries right _now_, what do you think will happen when Europe no longer has its biggest advantage - public healthcare?
EDIT:
I forgot to mention something important about #1 - that because of this, it's disingenuous to say that you "pay" for free healthcare with higher taxes. You don't. It's just that the cost of funding falls on your shoulders.
What does that even mean? What's the difference between paying for something or having the cost fall on ones shoulder's?
Also, Europe is very diverse. In Germany for example, you pay roughly 7% of your salary for health insurance, which is separate from other taxes.
The difference in salaries between the Bay Area and Europe is really big, although I don't think it holds for most of the rest of the US. There are also plenty of other factors such as vacation (30 vacation days versus 14 (?), no concept of "sick days" etc.) and intangibles such as living in a country w/o a huge wealth gap and regular shootings.
Also, Europe is very diverse. In Germany for example, you pay roughly 7% of your salary for health insurance, which is separate from other taxes.
The difference in salaries between the Bay Area and Europe is really big, although I don't think it holds for most of the rest of the US. There are also plenty of other factors such as vacation (30 vacation days versus 14 (?), no concept of "sick days" etc.) and intangibles such as living in a country w/o a huge wealth gap and regular shootings.
> What does that even mean? What's the difference between paying for something or having the cost fall on ones shoulder's?
The difference is that you get it either way and only really pay the cost back if you make over a certain amount of money. And there's absolutely nothing stopping you from never paying back that "fair share". You can just decide that taking long walks in nature beats making more money (and thus, paying more taxes). Not a problem for you, but the government can't exactly slap a VAT on that to pay for all the public services you consume.
> The difference in salaries between the Bay Area and Europe is really big, although I don't think it holds for most of the rest of the US.
Not just "Europe" - we're not comparing SF compensation with rural Bulgaria here - we're talking about European cities with the highest salaries (and highest COL, on average).
The difference is that you get it either way and only really pay the cost back if you make over a certain amount of money. And there's absolutely nothing stopping you from never paying back that "fair share". You can just decide that taking long walks in nature beats making more money (and thus, paying more taxes). Not a problem for you, but the government can't exactly slap a VAT on that to pay for all the public services you consume.
> The difference in salaries between the Bay Area and Europe is really big, although I don't think it holds for most of the rest of the US.
Not just "Europe" - we're not comparing SF compensation with rural Bulgaria here - we're talking about European cities with the highest salaries (and highest COL, on average).
What I don't see here mentioned enough is that OPs comparison is apples to oranges. US and EU are day and night in terms of taxing and social system. In the US you have next to no income tax, much less public transport and social services. For this, in EU, you earn 50-70% of what you can read about in Valley blogs, but you get all this, and you don't have to think about it. I think it's a way, way better system, and I gladly earn less in return. (Note: In US maybe you get some of the above on a company benefit at FAANG-ish level, but then you depend on your employer for it).
I'm not sure what the Ruby market in Berlin looks like, or what counts as a complex project. But earning 100k and more as a freelancer is absolutely doable with mobile apps, cloud stuff, or dev ops. The downside is that if you charge €100/h, you'll probably attract the sort of project where an outsourcing experiment failed catastrophically, and the deadline is tight enough that management stopped counting beans and wants an expert.
Swiss salaries on the German-speaking side for senior engineers are in the 120k-160k bracket (Zürich area, depending on skills and domain). Speaking German natively will also score you above a lot of the local developers (expats from many non-German speaking countries).
Taxes are much lower and quality of life is great, but also more expensive.
PM me if interested and I can hook you up with local recruiters. Remote work might be possible.
Yeah but cost of living in Switzerland in general and Zurich in particular is nuts. I think it's great if you're young and don't want to settle down, otherwise I think you'll be worse off than e.g. in Munich or Berlin. Also the general culture if way less accomodating to foreigners in Switzerland, even as a German you'll never be "part of the club". In Berlin people care way less where you're from, almost everyone moved here either from other parts of Germany or from abroad.
CHF or USD? Also, would B2 level in standard German help? Or only high C1-C2 level.
CHF, B2 is considered the minimum proficiency level for business but acceptable.
Is it legal to discriminate based on native language?
I also would be interested.
N26, Klarna, Contentful, GetYourGuide, Ebay and some others I cannot remember have engineers who make more than 100k, not all their engineers, but senior engineers. Mid-level, depending on how they define it, earn between 70k and 90k per year.
If you want salaries close to US ones with lower taxes, go to Zurich, but that's a different story.
If you want salaries close to US ones with lower taxes, go to Zurich, but that's a different story.
I don't know about Berlin, but outside of finance in CH, basically you need to look for US companies to have that kind of money in Europe.
You have Yelp in Hamburg, Uber in Amsterdam, Datadog in Paris etc. which are paying this kind of money to experienced developers (Uber in particular pays well north of 100k to experienced backenders).
You have Yelp in Hamburg, Uber in Amsterdam, Datadog in Paris etc. which are paying this kind of money to experienced developers (Uber in particular pays well north of 100k to experienced backenders).
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I'm really surprised where all those high numbers come from. The startups in Berlin that I know are very "thrifty" - no offense. They try to convince you with fringe benefits like free beer, Club Mate and a PlayStation in the lobby - but not a salary over 75k.
The EU and US have vastly different top end salaries. Best bet would be to compare countries like Ireland, UK, Netherlands, France, Belgium, Nordics, etc.
In Amsterdam the top end was around €80-90k, then it's the management path (principle engineer, head of engineering, etc.)
In Amsterdam the top end was around €80-90k, then it's the management path (principle engineer, head of engineering, etc.)
That sounds low. Booking.com can do ~€150k TC for senior engineers, and several finance places including optiver will do >€200k
Booking are kind of an exception to the rule given their clout. They pay astronomical figures because nobody wants to touch Perl :) There's a huge startup ecosystem in Amsterdam and €100k is approaching CTO salary. Often the dev teams are full of expat "senior" 20-somethings on €55-60k under the 30% Ruling (€53k upwards I think?).
I don't understand how come after all these years there is no rule when discussing salaries in terms of gross vs net.
Net Berlin 60k EUR is probably more than 100k USD gross.
And as far as I'm aware, 100k USD gross is median salary in the US.
Net Berlin 100k EUR is probably around gross 200k USD in the US.
Net Berlin 60k EUR is probably more than 100k USD gross.
And as far as I'm aware, 100k USD gross is median salary in the US.
Net Berlin 100k EUR is probably around gross 200k USD in the US.
There is an implicit rule: Everyone talk about gross. Including the OP.
Salaries for developers are in the 60-80K EUR gross in DE[0]
The US median gross is <40K USD [1] and for software developers it is close to 100K USD (probably much higher is SV and major tech hubs, and much lower everywhere else) [2]
[0] https://teleport.org/cities/berlin/#salaries [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_... [2] https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-develope...
Salaries for developers are in the 60-80K EUR gross in DE[0]
The US median gross is <40K USD [1] and for software developers it is close to 100K USD (probably much higher is SV and major tech hubs, and much lower everywhere else) [2]
[0] https://teleport.org/cities/berlin/#salaries [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_... [2] https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/software-develope...
It's not only tax class, that impacts your net income. There's a lot more to take into account when calculating your net income. You got children? Distance to your working place, even working from home reduces your tax load. 100k gross can range between 50 and 75k net.
Most people that I see discussing salaries (in Germany or in the US) use gross as the default. In rare cases I hear people use net, but mostly this is those starting out / student workers. I assume the OP means 100k gross. 100k gross in Berlin is above average.
Net income varies a lot depending on your tax class. If you're single without kids 60T€ yields about 2.900 € per month, I think.
The short answer is that I would be shocked to the point of disbelief to hear that a mid-level developer in the EU makes €100k, which is about $123k. In the US - which has higher salaries than the EU across the board in tech - the median salary is barely $101-102k. 20% above the median is rare in the US, let alone the EU.
Where are the places you'll make $125k+ in the US? A) Silicon Valley and NYC, which are huge outliers in terms of COL; B) HFT; C) Very senior/staff/principal engineers or architects at large tech-centric firms, and you're going to need a lot of domain expertise
I think it's pretty hard to find something comparable to the above in the EU.
Where are the places you'll make $125k+ in the US? A) Silicon Valley and NYC, which are huge outliers in terms of COL; B) HFT; C) Very senior/staff/principal engineers or architects at large tech-centric firms, and you're going to need a lot of domain expertise
I think it's pretty hard to find something comparable to the above in the EU.
> Where are the places you'll make $125k+ in the US? A) Silicon Valley and NYC, which are huge outliers in terms of COL; B) HFT; C) Very senior/staff/principal engineers or architects at large tech-centric firms, and you're going to need a lot of domain expertise
You are very misinformed. Regular old senior/principal developers at boring old companies can pull 125K+ salary all day long in places like NC, GA, etc. In SV it’s more like 300K+ (in total compensation).
You are very misinformed. Regular old senior/principal developers at boring old companies can pull 125K+ salary all day long in places like NC, GA, etc. In SV it’s more like 300K+ (in total compensation).
That's what I said? Principal devs will make that regardless of location if they have the requisite domain expertise (which is usually required for the principal slots).
SV and NYC is more like $200k+, I make over $120k at a random tech company in Maryland as a mid level developer
$200k+ is a subset of $125k+, yes. There are absolutely mid-levels in both cities making under $200k that aren't working for FAANG or funded start-ups.
What industry? It seems to me like $120k is the new average for mid level dev that graduated in the last 5-7 years.
Telecommunications. And indeed, I graduated 6 years ago.
It’s possible. Check out remote companies.
I am working for GitLab, am based in Germany and know that it is possible for Ruby Engineers (our compensation calculator was public until recently, and I think sharing a general range that is public info due to public git history is fine). There are other remote companies who pay similarly well (or even Valley / NY salaries).
If remote is not your thing, I know that even in Jena engineers can earn a 6 figure salaries, so there are surely jobs in Berlin as well.
If you are an Ruby engineer with 10 years experience, many companies will consider senior as well, don’t sell yourself short
I am working for GitLab, am based in Germany and know that it is possible for Ruby Engineers (our compensation calculator was public until recently, and I think sharing a general range that is public info due to public git history is fine). There are other remote companies who pay similarly well (or even Valley / NY salaries).
If remote is not your thing, I know that even in Jena engineers can earn a 6 figure salaries, so there are surely jobs in Berlin as well.
If you are an Ruby engineer with 10 years experience, many companies will consider senior as well, don’t sell yourself short
You could consider move into contracting, if that is something that suits your mentality.
I think you could make 600EUR/day with your experience. Do that for 200 days a year and you hit 120K. That leaves 20K for expenses related to freelancing, like sick days - and you have buffer time between contracts.
Check out freelancer.com and check out which companies are used to hire contracters in your area. I know some in Denmark and Norway, but don't know how it works in
It is not as safe and "cozy" as being a full-time employee - but you can definitely make more.
I think you could make 600EUR/day with your experience. Do that for 200 days a year and you hit 120K. That leaves 20K for expenses related to freelancing, like sick days - and you have buffer time between contracts.
Check out freelancer.com and check out which companies are used to hire contracters in your area. I know some in Denmark and Norway, but don't know how it works in
It is not as safe and "cozy" as being a full-time employee - but you can definitely make more.
There are many major cities in the US where the salary you describe wouldn’t be out of the norm. Particularly in rust belt cities like Detroit or the Midwest.
You’re describing a $73.2k salary for a mid tier rails developer in Berlin.
It’s hard to think of a comparable city to Berlin in the US. I think highly of Berlin, it has a great startup scene and a reasonable cost of living compared to other German cities I know of. But it is also somewhat of a recovering “rust belt city” that keeps costs low to fuel this growth.
You’re describing a $73.2k salary for a mid tier rails developer in Berlin.
It’s hard to think of a comparable city to Berlin in the US. I think highly of Berlin, it has a great startup scene and a reasonable cost of living compared to other German cities I know of. But it is also somewhat of a recovering “rust belt city” that keeps costs low to fuel this growth.
Let's ask some questions first.
Are you willing to give up your cosy holiday plans?
Are you willing to give up your (at work) privacy?
Are you willing to work overtime without compensation or complains?
Are you willing to work for a company that might drop dead in 2 months?
For short: are you willing and able to take a risk? If yes, then it is not hard. But knowing my (Western European) colleagues, the most likely answer is no.
Do not underestimate the value of stability and predictability.
Are you willing to give up your cosy holiday plans?
Are you willing to give up your (at work) privacy?
Are you willing to work overtime without compensation or complains?
Are you willing to work for a company that might drop dead in 2 months?
For short: are you willing and able to take a risk? If yes, then it is not hard. But knowing my (Western European) colleagues, the most likely answer is no.
Do not underestimate the value of stability and predictability.
My salary is $160k USD and I live in Berlin. I work remotely for an early-stage startup in SF. I still earn less than what I would if I was in SF but obviously it's amazing from a DE stand-point.
My previous job was a German company based here in Berlin and I was on 100k EUR (as Head of Product). Any Enterprise B2B SaaS is where I'd recommend looking tbh.
My previous job was a German company based here in Berlin and I was on 100k EUR (as Head of Product). Any Enterprise B2B SaaS is where I'd recommend looking tbh.
If you switch to contracting and build up your business you can eventually surpass that in Berlin. I’ve never tried as I prefer to work less and have been somewhere picky about what I take, I think if you just stuck your head down and took every gig you could do pretty well.
I would not anticipate that you would see such a dramatic increase in your salary unless you are moving between employers or can bring an offer from a different employer as leverage.
If you are not satisfied with your compensation, it might not hurt to do a little window shopping.
If you are not satisfied with your compensation, it might not hurt to do a little window shopping.
As a contractor ruby developer in London, you could make £650 per day. And now that many jobs are remote-only, it might not matter if you're in Berlin
30 in Paris, finance, 80k€ fixed salary + 10-20k€ bonus.
This seems high for Paris, is it ABC.A ?
I make 140k as a network automation Engineer for a company in Ireland (though main office is in US).
It's possible.
It's possible.
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Remote work is a good bet. Especially Rails programmers can fetch quite a bit.
Are you speaking from experience? I felt like competing against poorer European countries and pay was just never worth it.
Some limited experience. I'm living in Germany, but not in one of the larger cities where employers tend to pay more (Hamburg, Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt). So I also checked out remote opportunities. I noticed also that for Ruby/Rails developers there were some high-paying jobs available. Since that's not my specialty I didn't pursue them though.
Living in a major city will offer you more opportunities though and also allows job hopping which is the best way to upgrade your salary anyway.
Living in a major city will offer you more opportunities though and also allows job hopping which is the best way to upgrade your salary anyway.
I moved to a bigger city and now earn nearly 40% more and enough to feed two. That's great, especially when you have to. But it's still far from 100k :)
I think for more then 80k, you need to be a bit more competitive.
https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Germany/
Seems like some US based companies offer quiet high salaries in Germany as well.
Not really, no. Tends to cap out at 80k here.
Yes, it is.
As a european in the same salary bracket this is just depressing. Europe is a dead end for highly motivated ambitious individuals.
You are not getting anywhere close to the upper middle class life...
You are not getting anywhere close to the upper middle class life...
Is moving to Switzerland or Dublin an option? Or do what I did and find a remote job with a US company and endure the timezones.
I have a friend who's 30 and will do 100k in web dev in full remote very soon. Works if you know how to market yourself mostly
But how does he do it?
You constantly look for other options, make compagnies bid against each other's.. that makes you at LEAST 5k more than nice guys who don't negociate at each Job change. Also you target a niche skill you specialise on. My friend it's clean code and tdd..
You need to target wealthy compagnies also... Not startups.
You need to target wealthy compagnies also... Not startups.