Refund of pre-installed Windows: Lenovo must pay 20k euros in damages(fsfe.org)
fsfe.org
Refund of pre-installed Windows: Lenovo must pay 20k euros in damages
https://fsfe.org/news/2021/news-20210302-01.html
119 comments
That's what I was thinking. Perhaps this shows just how disjointed Lenovo is as a company - there must be two very independent departments that know nothing of the others motivations.
I've also seen this rift, it was particularly confusing through the last 10 years to see Lenovo's lower end products being such dogshit, while their higher-end offerings were the best in the business. It seems like they're addressing this though, as some of their newer budget products are surprisingly robust. I recently picked up a new Ideapad for $400, and it felt much more robust than anything else I've ever used in the sub-$500 category. Same goes for the Duet, a $250 Chromebook with build quality that betrays it's lower-end hardware configuration. Modern Thinkpads seem to be making a bit of a comeback too, which I'm certainly happy to see.
They have a few local teams in China, plus ThinkPad teams worldwide plus NEC and Fujitsu operations. Lenovo seems to be operating like a brand name shared by those multiple teams each with its own ways of doing PC, controlled by the corporate in China, so depending on which team did a product, the designs can be wildly different.
Some of Ideapad 100 series were completely mini X270, for example.
Some of Ideapad 100 series were completely mini X270, for example.
My son is a member of the T430 cult, which is what I'm typing this on. After upgrades, I've been fairly happy with it. I've been purchasing X1 Carbons for customers of mine and that's been a really good experience as well.
I'd be happy to see Lenovo impose this high-end manufacturing quality across all of it's lines.
I'd be happy to see Lenovo impose this high-end manufacturing quality across all of it's lines.
The only think keeping me away from Lenovo for my next laptop is their nasty habit of imposing a PCIe whitelist. I've replaced the wifi card in my XPS 9350 at least once (Broadcom -> Intel) and I've got an Intel AX201 card waiting to be swapped in at the moment.
I have a ThinkPad X1 extreme gen1. Swapped the wifi for an ax201, Broadcom > Intel. Worked without any issues at all...
That was fixed a while ago. I was able to replace the default wifi adapter on my T460s with a cannibalized Airport card, and it surprisingly worked.
Yeah to get wireless AC, I had to install a modded firmware in my aging T430.
Here's hoping/cerebrating that's forever in the past.
Here's hoping/cerebrating that's forever in the past.
>I recently picked up a new Ideapad for $400, and it felt much more robust than anything else I've ever used in the sub-$500 category
Model?
Model?
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-IdeaPad-Slim-7-14ARE05-...
This bad boy was on clearance at a nearby Best Buy. Pretty nice comeup for the specs, and it's given me a new appreciation for Lenovo's consumer product build quality.
This bad boy was on clearance at a nearby Best Buy. Pretty nice comeup for the specs, and it's given me a new appreciation for Lenovo's consumer product build quality.
Hot damn that is a nice deal. Makes me want to upgrade.
I got a thinkpad E570 I got second hand/refurbished for $700 (from a guy whose clientele must be mostly old folks; it came with very large print instructions and windows already set up nicely with chrome installed.) I put Debian on it and it’s been my ride or die for a few years now. The body build quality is much higher than I was anticipating based on the hive mind’s opinions of the budget line E series. It’s got all the thinkpad niceties and only recently I’ve briefly considered getting a newer thinkpad that doesn’t have a VGA out... it’s a great laptop and a testament to the thinkpad budget line (which probably fits in their low to mid range across all their products?) Definitely a robust laptop, especially for the (retail) price.
That's common in large companies. Business units/channels/divisions do all kinds of stuff that is inconsistent with each other and even the stated company goals.
As an example, Aetna provides insurance to clients through Covered California and through other venues like the federal government. For the federal version, it's really easy to get stuff classified as out of network with a note from the provider that they don't accept Medicare assignment. For the Covered California version, it's virtually impossible to get out of network stuff covered because they will more or less trashcan notes from providers that don't accept Medicare assignment to avoid paying for those claims. My guess is the economics of each business unit/channel are different to the point where they make things easy for one plan and nearly impossible for another.
As an example, Aetna provides insurance to clients through Covered California and through other venues like the federal government. For the federal version, it's really easy to get stuff classified as out of network with a note from the provider that they don't accept Medicare assignment. For the Covered California version, it's virtually impossible to get out of network stuff covered because they will more or less trashcan notes from providers that don't accept Medicare assignment to avoid paying for those claims. My guess is the economics of each business unit/channel are different to the point where they make things easy for one plan and nearly impossible for another.
Even in countries where "pre-installed Linux" is proposed on the website it is impossible to buy it. It is just a scam.
Is there a 13-14 inch Linux laptop that’s (almost) comparable to M1 MacBook Air but way cheaper?
Video calls, occasional Android Studio. CS:GO maybe. Etc. Things like that.
Video calls, occasional Android Studio. CS:GO maybe. Etc. Things like that.
The head going one way, and the body another.
OEMs make significant money pre-installing windows on their machines.
A friend who worked at one OEM said it would cost $50 more to ship a machine with linux vs windows.
Pre-installing windows, bundling software (including telemetry - long history of this) makes Lenovo money at the time of sale, and afterwards.
Good job (and good fun) to this tenacious person. Glad for the outcome in his (and our) favor.
A friend who worked at one OEM said it would cost $50 more to ship a machine with linux vs windows.
Pre-installing windows, bundling software (including telemetry - long history of this) makes Lenovo money at the time of sale, and afterwards.
Good job (and good fun) to this tenacious person. Glad for the outcome in his (and our) favor.
>Pre-installing windows, bundling software (including telemetry - long history of this) makes Lenovo money at the time of sale, and afterwards.
I'd use "spyware" instead of "telemetry" considering the shit Lenovo has done.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/02/further-evidence-lenov...
I'd use "spyware" instead of "telemetry" considering the shit Lenovo has done.
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/02/further-evidence-lenov...
Dang. Six years since Superfish fiasco. I must have been in stasis for some of that.
Certainly feels that way.
Would you trust a preinstalled Ubuntu image from Lenovo more than a Windows one?
Thanks for the laugh, I needed it
I mean you do have a point but on the other hand you aren't paying for that os so you could change it anytime (without litterally voiding money). It could also make more people start to use Linux which isn't bad
.
Wow that's a whole new level of evil.
> OEMs make significant money pre-installing windows on their machines.
Then why is it that, whenever I see a choice, the Linux option is always cheaper?
For instance, I just went do Dell's site and randomly selected a laptop (https://www.dell.com/pt-br/work/shop/isv-workstations-certif...). The default operating system option is "Windows 10 Pro 64bit Brazil Portuguese"; if instead I select the "Ubuntu Linux 18.04" option, the price gets R$ 686,00 lower (and that's before removing the "Dell Endpoint Security" antivirus option, which decreases the price by another R$ 240,00).
Then why is it that, whenever I see a choice, the Linux option is always cheaper?
For instance, I just went do Dell's site and randomly selected a laptop (https://www.dell.com/pt-br/work/shop/isv-workstations-certif...). The default operating system option is "Windows 10 Pro 64bit Brazil Portuguese"; if instead I select the "Ubuntu Linux 18.04" option, the price gets R$ 686,00 lower (and that's before removing the "Dell Endpoint Security" antivirus option, which decreases the price by another R$ 240,00).
Linux doesn't have economics of scale, placement or subsidies... You're paying what Microsoft subsidizes to install windows, office, etc.
https://www.techjunkie.com/why-would-a-linux-laptop-be-more-...
> Bloatware Saves You Money > Because those companies who make those titles pay fees to have that software pre-installed on your new computer. They see that new desktop as a big billboard, waiting to be populated. And, boy do they load it up! > This Ubuntu installation doesn’t come with any bloatware, Dell isn’t making the kick-back, hence it increases cost.
> Other Costs > But, let’s not forget that these companies are USED to Windows. All of their internal processes are based around Windows systems. All their support personel are trained in Windows. > So, smaller supply and a dedicated demand equals higher cost. Basic economics. > Not to mention the additional cost of support staff for these laptops, who need to be trained in an entirely different environment
https://www.techjunkie.com/why-would-a-linux-laptop-be-more-...
> Bloatware Saves You Money > Because those companies who make those titles pay fees to have that software pre-installed on your new computer. They see that new desktop as a big billboard, waiting to be populated. And, boy do they load it up! > This Ubuntu installation doesn’t come with any bloatware, Dell isn’t making the kick-back, hence it increases cost.
> Other Costs > But, let’s not forget that these companies are USED to Windows. All of their internal processes are based around Windows systems. All their support personel are trained in Windows. > So, smaller supply and a dedicated demand equals higher cost. Basic economics. > Not to mention the additional cost of support staff for these laptops, who need to be trained in an entirely different environment
"This Ubuntu installation doesn’t come with any bloatware"
Actually sorry, this is not accurate. Canonical shipped Ubuntu with an Amazon search app, does plenty of telemetry, and forces updates. Unless you are very technically proficient it is very hard to disable all of it. (I remove or neutralize motd, appport, snapd, ubuntu-report, unattended-upgrades, ubuntu-advantage, whoopsie and more)
Actually sorry, this is not accurate. Canonical shipped Ubuntu with an Amazon search app, does plenty of telemetry, and forces updates. Unless you are very technically proficient it is very hard to disable all of it. (I remove or neutralize motd, appport, snapd, ubuntu-report, unattended-upgrades, ubuntu-advantage, whoopsie and more)
Ubuntu came with a controversial search lens that resulted in local searches returning web results from amazon that were supposed to be anonymized in 2012 and discontinued this stupid idea in 2014.
> does plenty of telemetry,
The telemetry that is sent on install does ask your permission to share and shares very innocuous data to boot
>The data includes information about your PC’s hardware, including the manufacturer, BIOS version, and the model of your CPU. It also includes information about your software, such as the version of Ubuntu you installed, your chosen desktop environment, whether you’re using the Xorg or Wayland display server, and the options you chose while installing Ubuntu. Other information, such as your time zone, information about your partitions, and your display’s resolution is also sent.
The other major source of leaks is the crash reporting tool which . Note that with open source software you don't have to trust the vendor you can actually see the source to the the tools that are communicating and convince yourself that they are serving legitimate needs that don't violate your privacy.
> forces updates
You can absolutely control updates of normal packages. Snap is indeed defective in that regard but nothing is forcing you to use it.
> Unless you are very technically proficient it is very hard to disable all of it
Packages are removable in band with the same tools used to manage all packages on the system. This isn't an example of extreme competence its basic understanding of the tools needed to use the system.
> motd
Not a data leak
> snap
a shitty tool but not one that harms your privacy or inherently does anything to you by existing just don't install snaps.
> ubuntu-report
This is the tool that reports basic info about your system after asking you once on initial install removing it... does nothing. If you don't want crash reporting its a checkbox in settings.
> ubuntu-advantage
This is something you have to sign up for having the package on your system isn't leaking your data
> Apport
This is disabled by default in stable releases. To disable sudo systemctl disable apport.service like every other service this is once again basic usage. It also doesn't leak your info without you allowing it even if enabled. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport
> does plenty of telemetry,
The telemetry that is sent on install does ask your permission to share and shares very innocuous data to boot
>The data includes information about your PC’s hardware, including the manufacturer, BIOS version, and the model of your CPU. It also includes information about your software, such as the version of Ubuntu you installed, your chosen desktop environment, whether you’re using the Xorg or Wayland display server, and the options you chose while installing Ubuntu. Other information, such as your time zone, information about your partitions, and your display’s resolution is also sent.
The other major source of leaks is the crash reporting tool which . Note that with open source software you don't have to trust the vendor you can actually see the source to the the tools that are communicating and convince yourself that they are serving legitimate needs that don't violate your privacy.
> forces updates
You can absolutely control updates of normal packages. Snap is indeed defective in that regard but nothing is forcing you to use it.
> Unless you are very technically proficient it is very hard to disable all of it
Packages are removable in band with the same tools used to manage all packages on the system. This isn't an example of extreme competence its basic understanding of the tools needed to use the system.
> motd
Not a data leak
> snap
a shitty tool but not one that harms your privacy or inherently does anything to you by existing just don't install snaps.
> ubuntu-report
This is the tool that reports basic info about your system after asking you once on initial install removing it... does nothing. If you don't want crash reporting its a checkbox in settings.
> ubuntu-advantage
This is something you have to sign up for having the package on your system isn't leaking your data
> Apport
This is disabled by default in stable releases. To disable sudo systemctl disable apport.service like every other service this is once again basic usage. It also doesn't leak your info without you allowing it even if enabled. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport
I think you should try this:
- set up a ubuntu system
- see what traffic it generates
- get it to stop
You will get pretty proficient at how apt and systemd work, especially after a couple release cycles and things get re-activated, re-enabled or re-installed.
- set up a ubuntu system
- see what traffic it generates
- get it to stop
You will get pretty proficient at how apt and systemd work, especially after a couple release cycles and things get re-activated, re-enabled or re-installed.
> does plenty of telemetry
Oh wait until you see how much Windows does of it. Its always about how much.
Oh wait until you see how much Windows does of it. Its always about how much.
Unattended upgrades is generally a good thing in my experience. It's quick and easy security patching. For Ubuntu, it's a bit more than that because they don't split the main and security repos, but on Debian it's one of my favourite features.
Part of why I prefer debian
But the point is that the linux laptop in GP's example was _cheaper_ (and my personal experience suggests this is a trend).
So assuming what you posted is true, why would companies offer a discount for the linux version?
So assuming what you posted is true, why would companies offer a discount for the linux version?
Yes, it makes no sense. I would happily pay more for a laptop with linux support. Meaning that the vendor guarantees that throttling, hibernation and other tricky stuff work as intended. But nobody offers me this option.
Assume Linux license cost 0. Assume windows OEM license cost 600. Assume the end user pays the 600 for the windows license. Assume windows install earns X for other reasons. Unless X > 600 windows version would cost more, and earn more than Linux version?
And even if not, there is no guarantee the X will be given away to the customer, rather than go to the bottom line?
And even if not, there is no guarantee the X will be given away to the customer, rather than go to the bottom line?
> bundling software
More like malware. I've even seen OEMs shipping firmware that just reinstalls their software even when users reinstall their operating systems. Lack of Linux support becomes a feature in these cases.
More like malware. I've even seen OEMs shipping firmware that just reinstalls their software even when users reinstall their operating systems. Lack of Linux support becomes a feature in these cases.
I'm always torn on this kind of stuff. On one hand, if you're technically proficient you're basically getting a steal.
Say a device you want to buy would cost $200, but because of stuff like pre-installing software, telemetry, etc. it is sold for $150. You just throw a custom OS on there / jailbreak it / run a few commands that kill the cruft, and you now have a clean device for a 25% discount.
On the other hand, the vast majority of people are not that technically proficient, and are either unaware or unable to defend themselves from aforementioned stuff. My parents recently bought a new Smart TV and if it wasn't for me they had no idea how much those log and send back to the mothership.
Then, if enough people actually are aware and combating this, it no longer is justifiable for the corporations and I lose my improptu discount. To me, a price I'm willing to pay to give others more privacy, but other people may not be so privileged.
Say a device you want to buy would cost $200, but because of stuff like pre-installing software, telemetry, etc. it is sold for $150. You just throw a custom OS on there / jailbreak it / run a few commands that kill the cruft, and you now have a clean device for a 25% discount.
On the other hand, the vast majority of people are not that technically proficient, and are either unaware or unable to defend themselves from aforementioned stuff. My parents recently bought a new Smart TV and if it wasn't for me they had no idea how much those log and send back to the mothership.
Then, if enough people actually are aware and combating this, it no longer is justifiable for the corporations and I lose my improptu discount. To me, a price I'm willing to pay to give others more privacy, but other people may not be so privileged.
I feel similar with using adblockers. There's lots of ads and I hate them, but because I'm technically inclined I can block them. But if lots of people do this, and they do, the cat and mouse game escalates to a point where I cannot do it anymore.
Is there a community for rooting Smart TVs and putting some other OS (i.e. LibreElec) onto the hardware?
Conversely, does anyone know if there's some way to re-use smart TV hardware? I had a Sony Android TV get smashed by a wayward child's actions some time ago and took all the boards out before recycling the rest, and I'd love to use it on my old dumb TV which has an aging Xbox 360 driving it, but I can't figure out how I'd get normal video output from the thing.
Conversely, does anyone know if there's some way to re-use smart TV hardware? I had a Sony Android TV get smashed by a wayward child's actions some time ago and took all the boards out before recycling the rest, and I'd love to use it on my old dumb TV which has an aging Xbox 360 driving it, but I can't figure out how I'd get normal video output from the thing.
The hardware used in Smart TVs is generally raspberry pi level (to the point the SoCs the rpi uses were actually designed for set top boxes) but a lot less friendly from both a kernel support perspective and hardware perspective because you don't have the entire Raspberry Pi foundation and hacking community behind making the software and hardware easy to hack on. Outside "I'm in it for the hardware hacking" grabbing a Pi 4 is going to be infinitely more effective, particularly if you want to throw libreelec or a de-googled Android TV on it without doing a lot of the hardware and software work yourself but even if you do it's unlikely you reach Pi quality.
At the "more money but I just want a device I can run my own software on that works out of the box" the Shield TVs are great, you can throw an open source Android TV on it (not that the branded one is all that bad tbh).
At the "more money but I just want a device I can run my own software on that works out of the box" the Shield TVs are great, you can throw an open source Android TV on it (not that the branded one is all that bad tbh).
Mmm. I have an RPi 4 but misclicked when ordering and ended up with a 1GB model. The Kodi performance on it is unacceptably bad; which is surprising considering that codebase used to run on an Xbox 1 with one core and 64MB.... so it became a Volumio machine instead, once I got an external USB DAC that didn't suck as much as the onboard sound does. (Talk about electrical noise, ugh).
The reason I wanted to see if I could get that Sony hardware running on some other screen (besides the re-use angle) is because Android TV gets you access to the first party Netflix and other streaming services with the proper UI. Netflix-via-Kodi is not really a very good user experience presently. You mention open source Android TV - is that something I could run on other kinds of devices? Can you get the Netflix etc. apps on it?
The reason I wanted to see if I could get that Sony hardware running on some other screen (besides the re-use angle) is because Android TV gets you access to the first party Netflix and other streaming services with the proper UI. Netflix-via-Kodi is not really a very good user experience presently. You mention open source Android TV - is that something I could run on other kinds of devices? Can you get the Netflix etc. apps on it?
Yeah 1 GB will limit you out of running Android TV on it straight out, I think it requires 2 GB minimum.
If you go fully open source on any device (Android TV or not) you lose full levels of Widevine (or whatever DRM) support. Apps like Netflix work on open source builds of Android TV but you won't get high quality streams as a result. I think Disney+ was one that refused to work at all, the rest seemed to run. So if you're doing "open source" for purity reasons those are the types tradeoffs you have to make regardless of the hardware or software you choose.
OTOH if you're just looking for a decent unrestricted first party external Android TV box that gets updates (old model is 6 years running on updates now) and has full play store/app support the Shield TV is $150 new and will run all of the apps at 4k 60 HDR out of the box. It can even be officially unlocked and rooted but again some apps will stop working (e.g. Disney+) if you do that. Shield TV Pro is $200 if you want additional RAM and built in app storage. Comes with a nice remote too.
If you go fully open source on any device (Android TV or not) you lose full levels of Widevine (or whatever DRM) support. Apps like Netflix work on open source builds of Android TV but you won't get high quality streams as a result. I think Disney+ was one that refused to work at all, the rest seemed to run. So if you're doing "open source" for purity reasons those are the types tradeoffs you have to make regardless of the hardware or software you choose.
OTOH if you're just looking for a decent unrestricted first party external Android TV box that gets updates (old model is 6 years running on updates now) and has full play store/app support the Shield TV is $150 new and will run all of the apps at 4k 60 HDR out of the box. It can even be officially unlocked and rooted but again some apps will stop working (e.g. Disney+) if you do that. Shield TV Pro is $200 if you want additional RAM and built in app storage. Comes with a nice remote too.
> The Kodi performance on it is unacceptably bad
Under Raspbian? It seemed to need a lot of fiddling to be usable so I went with the OpenElec image. Later switched to OSMC, still working great on a 1gb RPi 2.
Under Raspbian? It seemed to need a lot of fiddling to be usable so I went with the OpenElec image. Later switched to OSMC, still working great on a 1gb RPi 2.
> external USB DAC that didn't suck as much as the onboard sound does
Shouldn't it output digital audio over HDMI?
Shouldn't it output digital audio over HDMI?
That's an interesting thought. Is it easy to extract this in another form? Like coax spdif? Or do you need a home theater amp with hdmi in?
Personally I'm using the latter, I forgot all about SPDIF. There are splitters on Amazon that take HDMI in and output HDMI video plus SPDIF audio, but they seem to all be in the $25 range, so may not be worth it.
Sure does, but my beautiful-but-old amplifier does not have HDMI. I use SPDIF a lot, but haven't found a good cheap USB-to-SPDIF sound card yet. Plenty of pricier ones, but the point here is to find some use for something I already cheaped out on in the first place.
I guess $25 might not be cheap enough either, but there are some HDMI->(HDMI+SPDIF) splitters on Amazon for that price.
Wanting to "smarten" a dumb TV is the exact opposite of the common trend here on HN, but in any case, the motherboard is likely to have LVDS or VbyOne output to the panel; if your dumb TV's panel uses the same interface and resolution, you might be able to do it.
(You can get "universal scaler" boards which can drive any panel.)
(You can get "universal scaler" boards which can drive any panel.)
[deleted]
I wonder if they would have won the lawsuit if they simply brought this up - We're happy to refund you the price of the laptop if Windows was not pre-installed and with all of the other bundled software: Please pay us $50.
It kinda makes sense to just buy the laptop with windows and then flatten and re-install linux.
It kinda makes sense to just buy the laptop with windows and then flatten and re-install linux.
If we all acted like Mr. Luca software industry and the internet would be much better.
Clearly it was never about the 42 Euro license, it was about the principles.
As always companies like Lenovo only act like this way because we passively allow them to do so.
Clearly it was never about the 42 Euro license, it was about the principles.
As always companies like Lenovo only act like this way because we passively allow them to do so.
> As always companies like Lenovo only act like this way because we passively allow them to do so.
Also because their total penalty for this behaviour, three years of legal time-wasting to avoid their responsibilities, is $20,000.
Also because their total penalty for this behaviour, three years of legal time-wasting to avoid their responsibilities, is $20,000.
"The court also noted that this case is an example of the arrogance and prevarication of a giant company against a modest consumer. In the end, the court ruled that the sum was to be paid to Luca, by way of compensating for the damage caused by aggravated procedural liability."
That sounds dangerously like common sense. I'm not familiar with Italian law but that judgment looks pretty decent and runs along fairness style grounds and it would have been made after consideration. If IT law is precedent based that may be quite a powerful result.
That sounds dangerously like common sense. I'm not familiar with Italian law but that judgment looks pretty decent and runs along fairness style grounds and it would have been made after consideration. If IT law is precedent based that may be quite a powerful result.
Let's not forget how well connected Microsoft is. People love to use their clickable UI tools, compared to editing config files. In RHE/CentOS it was possible to store all settings made during installation and reuse the file for future automated installations. (I think it was called kickstart file).
> if IT Law is precedent
Common law as this system is referred to is specific to former British Empire colonies. So it never applies to continental Europe. [0]
[0]: https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_law
Common law as this system is referred to is specific to former British Empire colonies. So it never applies to continental Europe. [0]
[0]: https://simple.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_law
It at least sets a precedent for Lenovo, and will probably dissuade them from appealing, at least in Italy. It might even make it easier to get a refund.
The precedent here is making it not economical for Lenovo to engage in a lengthy litigation process. Such tactics are generally employed against consumers, to dissuade them from suing. It's nice to see it backfiring, and indicative of a healthy court system, IMO.
The precedent here is making it not economical for Lenovo to engage in a lengthy litigation process. Such tactics are generally employed against consumers, to dissuade them from suing. It's nice to see it backfiring, and indicative of a healthy court system, IMO.
Props to the Lenovo IT legal department who challenged a legal decision that would have cost them 200EUR. Sure it might have encouraged more people to ask for a refund, still cheaper than what they have to pay now.
20k euros is still a drop in the ocean. It wont even register.
If only this applied to Apple hardware and Apple OSes too.
Microsoft put it in their EULA, Apple did not (Microsoft says you can return it for a refund, Apple doesn’t and gives their OS away for free anyway so even if there was a legal requirement it wouldn’t work).
> Apple doesn’t and gives their OS away for free anyway
At the price of their hardware that isn't a surprise. Essentially it is just another bundle, and upgrades do not eat into the sales of new hardware.
At the price of their hardware that isn't a surprise. Essentially it is just another bundle, and upgrades do not eat into the sales of new hardware.
Are you sure that it is actually the EULA of Microsoft Windows that provides the basis for this decisions on court?
The post make is more seems like it would be general consumer protection laws.
Because if its based on general consumer protection laws, then how would that translate to choosing your own operating systems on smartphones, smartwatches, gaming consoles and the like?
The post make is more seems like it would be general consumer protection laws.
Because if its based on general consumer protection laws, then how would that translate to choosing your own operating systems on smartphones, smartwatches, gaming consoles and the like?
The EULA says:
> If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features. You may contact the device manufacturer or installer, or your retailer if you purchased the software directly, to determine its return policy and return the software or device for a refund or credit under that policy. You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return the software with the entire device on which the software is installed for a refund or credit, if any.
And the article says:
> Finally, in December 2020, the Court of Monza rejected all Lenovo's arguments, confirming that the right to reimbursement of the pre-installed software was due. The sentence pointed out that the manufacturer itself had expressly assumed this obligation in the Windows licence.
> If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may not use the software or its features. You may contact the device manufacturer or installer, or your retailer if you purchased the software directly, to determine its return policy and return the software or device for a refund or credit under that policy. You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return the software with the entire device on which the software is installed for a refund or credit, if any.
And the article says:
> Finally, in December 2020, the Court of Monza rejected all Lenovo's arguments, confirming that the right to reimbursement of the pre-installed software was due. The sentence pointed out that the manufacturer itself had expressly assumed this obligation in the Windows licence.
> You must comply with that policy, which might require you to return the software with the entire device on which the software is installed for a refund or credit, if any.
I wonder what they mean by "device." Device as in the hard drive or device as in the entire computer? Surely having to return the entire computer defeats the point of Windows' refund policy?
I wonder what they mean by "device." Device as in the hard drive or device as in the entire computer? Surely having to return the entire computer defeats the point of Windows' refund policy?
Device means computer, what that means is either “return the computer or the OEM license to the manufacturer for a refund”, which is to say that you get all of your money back if the computer is returned, not just the hardware cost.
That decision is completely unsupported by the quoted EULA text.
It should translate directly. Personally I only buy gaming consoles that can be jailbroken, smartphones that you can install any GNU/Linux distro on etc. and I refuse to treat them any other way I'd treat a PC. That said, there are way more people not wanting Windows on their laptops than people who do what I do, and look how the issue of refunds over pre-installed Windows is still newsworthy now in 2021.
Selling things below cost price is not legal everywhere (it is often called predatory pricing, undercutting, price slashing, etc.). Now, I'm not a lawyer but I'm guessing that giving away something for free isn't always legal either, especially if giving it away is of interest to your business.
Apple's return policies on their hardware are more than reasonable. You have 14 days to return an item (even if it's been used) and you don't need to justify it, you can simply say you don't like it. They don't charge for the OS seperately either so that argument makes no sense.
If what applied? They don't sell DIY kits, they sell products. You're free to erase macOS and hack Linux into your MacBook all day, but why should anyone get a refund for this?
Do I get a refund if I want to hack my smart TV? The nav system in the car?
Do I get a refund if I want to hack my smart TV? The nav system in the car?
It would be harder to argue since Apple does not license it separately from the hardware, and does not even charge for the upgrades anymore. They could probably just say "it's free for buyers of Apple hardware".
Oh boy, everytime I have to buy a notebook and it comes with windows... What a drag. I must have at least 3 windows keys (that I save before wiping) laying around somewhere. Imagine if they would to refund me.
The worst part, at least for me, is that is becoming harder and harder to install linux with this new notebooks. Mine didn't come with lan port, and Debian didn't recognize the wifi and gpu, because both are proprietary. So, I would have to spend 4 hours at least working around everything. Sad
The worst part, at least for me, is that is becoming harder and harder to install linux with this new notebooks. Mine didn't come with lan port, and Debian didn't recognize the wifi and gpu, because both are proprietary. So, I would have to spend 4 hours at least working around everything. Sad
> We all know how frustrating it is to buy a brand new computer and realise that it comes with a pre-installed proprietary operating system.
It's hard to take this seriously.
It's hard to take this seriously.
It can be frustrating, because that means you were unable to save tens of bucks by piracying Windows. At least that's what I have seen why some people prefer computers with FreeDOS.
It depends who the "we" refers to. For readers & editors of the fse blog, I think it makes sense.
I think theres more than enough people who don't even boot the thing before wiping the drive and putting debian on it, especially among the readers of that blog.
On the other hand I had the pleasure to have the opposite experience with Dell almost 10 years ago: called to ask for a refund of the Windows license after buying the laptop and was quickly refunded ~140€ for Windows and all pre-installed software, no questions asked. Funny how customer experiences can be so wildly different...
I was in the same shoes once with a tiny 11" lenovo ideapad, which didn't have enough storage space for windows updates anymore, even with everything uninstalled.
I tried to install Linux, but was unable to.
FYI in the same position, the solution I found was to download the Windows Install ISO, put it onto USB, and boot from that and do a clean Windows install. I needed a special dongle too for the device.
A clean install uses less disk space, and it removes accumulated cruft that you can’t otherwise delete easily. I think minor updates worked after that for a while.
A clean install uses less disk space, and it removes accumulated cruft that you can’t otherwise delete easily. I think minor updates worked after that for a while.
Man, Italian tribunals already have enough of a backlog with all sorts of shit, Lenovo deserve the scorn for trying to abuse the process.
> Lenovo deserve the scorn for trying to abuse the process
This should happen more often. Especially if it's a big company trying to leverage the legal system to bully individuals or drive competitors out of business.
This should happen more often. Especially if it's a big company trying to leverage the legal system to bully individuals or drive competitors out of business.
lol, 20k... might as well been nothing
If this sets a precedent it's enough to make it worth consumer's time to sue, which prevents lenovo (or others) from pulling such stunts in the future as they know they will actually get sued.
Man this makes me want to move to Italy.
Someone start a country with free healthcare and consumer protections, you can tax me what you want.
I just want to live in a society where everyone is taken care of, not where businesses make the laws.
Someone start a country with free healthcare and consumer protections, you can tax me what you want.
I just want to live in a society where everyone is taken care of, not where businesses make the laws.
I don't know a hell of a lot about Italy, but I don't think it's the utopia you're imagining.
Italian here. Upvoted you :(
So many users end up losing their OEM activation after having to re-install windows from torrented ISO's without access to actual keys.
This is silly and inaccurate since at least 2012. OEM Windows keys are stored in the BIOS and can be activated without knowing the key. Also, you do not have to torrent Windows ISOs, they're freely available from Microsoft via the Media Creation Tool.
...not to mention that downloading an OS from some unknown torrent doesn't sound like a good idea.
I don't know about Lenovo, but my Dell machines have their OEM Windows keys stored in the BIOS. You can wipe Windows and reinstall it at any point with that key.
In addition to the other comments, product licenses from purchased copies of Windows (like a digital download/upgrade of Windows 10 Pro) are stored in your Microsoft account.
Whatever means you use to reinstall even if it's a custom built machine without a Windows key in the BIOS you login to your Microsoft account and the license/activation "just works".
Loooooong gone are the days of typing in license keys or calling Microsoft on the phone if there is a problem activating/re-activating.
Whatever means you use to reinstall even if it's a custom built machine without a Windows key in the BIOS you login to your Microsoft account and the license/activation "just works".
Loooooong gone are the days of typing in license keys or calling Microsoft on the phone if there is a problem activating/re-activating.
_If_ you fancy identifying yourself to Microsoft and hooking up the copious telemetry they gather to you identity that is.
Telemetry is a different issue and has been discussed extensively on HN. Once activated you can sign out of your account and implement the various measures that have been well documented here and elsewhere. It doesn't impact your license or activation state.
If that doesn't address your concerns you should't use Windows in the first place. Just as I don't for the vast majority of my machines, workflow, etc.
If that doesn't address your concerns you should't use Windows in the first place. Just as I don't for the vast majority of my machines, workflow, etc.
"It should go without saying that everyone should be able to freely choose the operating system to run on their personal computers"
I think this is an antiquated idea that presupposes that the definition of the product you are buying from a company is a "general purpose computing device".
The overwhelming majority of users of devices just want the value that a product maker offers. We're now completely surrounded by devices that offer no such freedoms, and we're completely reliant on networked services where we also have no choice in the matter.
Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv?
This feels like trying to force a company to offer a product that somebody wishes they offered.
I think this is an antiquated idea that presupposes that the definition of the product you are buying from a company is a "general purpose computing device".
The overwhelming majority of users of devices just want the value that a product maker offers. We're now completely surrounded by devices that offer no such freedoms, and we're completely reliant on networked services where we also have no choice in the matter.
Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv?
This feels like trying to force a company to offer a product that somebody wishes they offered.
> Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv?
All of those examples have the hardware manufacturer bundling their own software, as opposed to tying a third-party software product that to the sale of the hardware. And none of those companies have quite the history that Microsoft does with illegal tying. So there's plenty of room to draw a line that allows Chrome OS and iOS but requires Lenovo to make Windows optional. (I'm not saying that's the most sensible place to draw the line, just that there are clear distinctions to be made here.)
All of those examples have the hardware manufacturer bundling their own software, as opposed to tying a third-party software product that to the sale of the hardware. And none of those companies have quite the history that Microsoft does with illegal tying. So there's plenty of room to draw a line that allows Chrome OS and iOS but requires Lenovo to make Windows optional. (I'm not saying that's the most sensible place to draw the line, just that there are clear distinctions to be made here.)
> The overwhelming majority of users of devices just want the value that a product maker offers.
Yes, because they don't know any better.
If all users knew how vendor lock-in affected the entire OX (ownership experience) in all its aspects, then perhaps they would choose differently.
Yes, because they don't know any better.
If all users knew how vendor lock-in affected the entire OX (ownership experience) in all its aspects, then perhaps they would choose differently.
When did we become okay with people selling something other than a general-purpose computer and calling it a "computer?"
When we let regular people buy computers. Only enthusiasts want computers they tinker around with, the vast majority of consumers just want it to work. They won't be installing alternative operating systems, they want to push a button and get to work/play/etc.
Then call it a phone, or a console, or something. Words have meanings and if you sell something as a "computer" then the buyer can expect to be able to do general-purpose computation on it.
This battle gets fought and lost repeatedly. Words mean what the majority want them to mean. Hacker used to mean programmer, but not any more. Computer means that thing you sit down at with a keyboard, mouse, and big screen, and do word processing/e-mail/etc with.
Saying that the only real 'computers' are generic beige boxes that can run any old OS is just gatekeeping, and basically irrelevant. That's not what the word computer means to most people.
Saying that the only real 'computers' are generic beige boxes that can run any old OS is just gatekeeping, and basically irrelevant. That's not what the word computer means to most people.
"I'd like to buy a drill."
"Here you go!"
"This is... A board with a hole in it? I want a drill."
"This is better for regular people: the hole already exists, you can screw things right to it."
"Yes, but I want to drill several holes in my wall. I don't want a brand new board with a single hole, I want a drill to make holes."
"Most people, when they say they want a drill, really actually mean they want a hole. So we call these hole-boards drills now."
"But it's not what it means. I want an actual drill."
"Ugh, why all the gatekeeping, it's irrelevant, just buy this 'drill.'"
"Here you go!"
"This is... A board with a hole in it? I want a drill."
"This is better for regular people: the hole already exists, you can screw things right to it."
"Yes, but I want to drill several holes in my wall. I don't want a brand new board with a single hole, I want a drill to make holes."
"Most people, when they say they want a drill, really actually mean they want a hole. So we call these hole-boards drills now."
"But it's not what it means. I want an actual drill."
"Ugh, why all the gatekeeping, it's irrelevant, just buy this 'drill.'"
but it's not simply a "phone" anymore... it's a super computer that happens to make phone calls.
And what about making phone calls from computers now? I guess we shouldn't call THAT a computer anymore because it's used to make phone calls? It's a desk-phone?
And what about making phone calls from computers now? I guess we shouldn't call THAT a computer anymore because it's used to make phone calls? It's a desk-phone?
You can still do general propose computing though. There’s millions of applications and you can make your own work a programming language of your choice.
> Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv?
Yes
Yes
> Yes
You can sue anyone for anything... the question is what are you suing the company for? Providing a product in a way you disagree with?
You can sue anyone for anything... the question is what are you suing the company for? Providing a product in a way you disagree with?
P.S.: there's an entertaining segment by ThePrimeagen in which he talks about his frustrating experience of ordering an X1 Carbon Extreme from Lenovo: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/909927791?t=00h32m16s