"My employment at Google was terminated abruptly"(twitter.com)
twitter.com
"My employment at Google was terminated abruptly"
https://twitter.com/amrutabuge/status/1456349516102344705
49 comments
In fairness, we're only hearing one side of the argument here. It's easy enough for anyone to say they're hard-working diligent team players, but we don't know if they're getting the work done! Don't get me wrong, Google are notoriously nasty when you get on the wrong side of management, but to start claiming discrimination is a bit fresh.
Also, publicly naming the manager is pretty bad karma. It's like they're anticipating or expecting some Twitter pile on.
Yeah. That was a bad call.
Having been a manager, about 1/10th of employees had... issues. Those employees took up an inordinate amount of management time and especially energy.
I don't know whether she or her manager were the problem; in most cases, it's 50/50. If I know a potential hire had issues before, it raises the risk of a hire a lot. I want to avoid that kind of employee.
If they act unprofessionally after leaving, that goes up to 95/5. Perhaps her boss had issues, but she definitely did as well. Posting a list of management emails? Naming her boss publicly? That goes to a serious red flag.
When I was managing, I would never have hired someone who did this. The risk goes in several directions too. Since then, I've picked up a harassing stalker. Having an employee do this sort of thing went from psychologically draining to potentially devastating to my safety.
Privacy is kind of important.
Having been a manager, about 1/10th of employees had... issues. Those employees took up an inordinate amount of management time and especially energy.
I don't know whether she or her manager were the problem; in most cases, it's 50/50. If I know a potential hire had issues before, it raises the risk of a hire a lot. I want to avoid that kind of employee.
If they act unprofessionally after leaving, that goes up to 95/5. Perhaps her boss had issues, but she definitely did as well. Posting a list of management emails? Naming her boss publicly? That goes to a serious red flag.
When I was managing, I would never have hired someone who did this. The risk goes in several directions too. Since then, I've picked up a harassing stalker. Having an employee do this sort of thing went from psychologically draining to potentially devastating to my safety.
Privacy is kind of important.
well ... is it this Elizabeth Weber (https://www.linkedin.com/in/elizabethaweber/) because if so ... ex Amazon, so odds are toxic.
ding ding ding
don’t abuse your employees
Not at all, ALWAYS name the bad managers ... it's the only way they will face repercussions, and the only way to deter others from following in their footsteps.
It does deter others from following in their footsteps. Once name-and-shame comes in, that deters anyone but the super-privileged from going into management. No one who can't weather name-and-shame will go for jobs like that.
Name-and-shame is... random. I've never been hit, but the people I've seen hit... It hasn't had much to do with them, so much as with the people doing the shaming.
Name-and-shame is... random. I've never been hit, but the people I've seen hit... It hasn't had much to do with them, so much as with the people doing the shaming.
google is so big nobody can get anyone else’s attention. so making a public stink, while very questionable otherwise, may get someone’s attention who’s able to fix this mess
name and shame. only way to change
Naming their manager in twitter complaint and then asking people to spam every node in the org chart from their manager up to Sundar. Yeah, that is going to get the results you want...
Not the best move but at the same time what else is there she can do?
Being young, in your "dream job" and then being told "there’s someone waiting outside to collect your corp devices" without any real explanation. It's 100% HR + Managers fault that this situation has escalated to this.
If a future employer asks for a reference from Google she's screwed.
This whole "don't say anything bad about X, it will reflect badly on you" is how the Epsteins and Weinsteins of the world go undetected for years.
If what she says is true she should probably go to a lawyer and sue.
Being young, in your "dream job" and then being told "there’s someone waiting outside to collect your corp devices" without any real explanation. It's 100% HR + Managers fault that this situation has escalated to this.
If a future employer asks for a reference from Google she's screwed.
This whole "don't say anything bad about X, it will reflect badly on you" is how the Epsteins and Weinsteins of the world go undetected for years.
If what she says is true she should probably go to a lawyer and sue.
This is a weird one. Google is notoriously slow to fire people for performance reasons. People get Needs Improvement ratings. They go on PIPs. It takes ages. A sudden termination typically means something else. This can either mean that the individual did something especially foolish or a lot of people are doing the wrong thing to get this person fired (a manager, a skip, some people in HR, and probably a director would be involved in this sort of thing).
But the complaints here seem to be related to performance management. Getting a frustratingly low rating. Being told that they aren't doing enough work. For this sort of situation I'd expect the firing process to take months.
"CME for missing a meeting" is strange, but the good news is that manager calibration notes are stored in durable systems and in many locales people have the legal right to see them. So it'd be possible to see if this was actually the reason for a rating.
We'll see if more information comes out.
But the complaints here seem to be related to performance management. Getting a frustratingly low rating. Being told that they aren't doing enough work. For this sort of situation I'd expect the firing process to take months.
"CME for missing a meeting" is strange, but the good news is that manager calibration notes are stored in durable systems and in many locales people have the legal right to see them. So it'd be possible to see if this was actually the reason for a rating.
We'll see if more information comes out.
The individual was very likely on a PIP. They mentioned "performance issues". It could've went on for months.
If a manager really wants you gone they can manufacture evidence and have you yanked quickly by constructing unobtainable and/or subjective PIP targets.
If a manager really wants you gone they can manufacture evidence and have you yanked quickly by constructing unobtainable and/or subjective PIP targets.
It may depend on the org, but in my org at Google there is a ton of oversight in PIP construction. I've not ever personally seen unobtainable or subjective PIP targets.
It'd also be extremely odd to be on a PIP after receiving a Consistently Meets Expectations rating. Only a subset of Needs Improvement ratings actually get PIPs. CME, by definition, means that you are doing your job sufficiently.
It'd also be extremely odd to be on a PIP after receiving a Consistently Meets Expectations rating. Only a subset of Needs Improvement ratings actually get PIPs. CME, by definition, means that you are doing your job sufficiently.
> If a future employer asks for a reference from Google she's screwed.
If a future employer checks and see she was asking people to go and harass her former managers and HR, it'd reflect pretty badly on her; I know I wouldn't want her in my team.
And as for what she can do, isn't wrongful termination illegal? Like she could instead open a civil case against Google
If a future employer checks and see she was asking people to go and harass her former managers and HR, it'd reflect pretty badly on her; I know I wouldn't want her in my team.
And as for what she can do, isn't wrongful termination illegal? Like she could instead open a civil case against Google
this lady is not going to have a problem finding employment. google is losing an asset, possibly a major one, for whatever reasons they have to do so
Admittedly, being fired when on an h1b visa is stupendously stressful because you need to get a new job immediately or be booted from the country. Opening a civil case won't achieve any rapid goal of getting employment. We'll see whether this strategy helps or hurts. There are enough people out there who really don't like Google that I would not be surprised if this sort of strategy allows for rapid connection to these people even if it sours most companies on this person.
I don't think calling for harassement would help getting a new job (unlike the rest of her complaints)
i’ve been in high stress situations, and angry, where I made a bunch of correct decisions, and a bunch of mistakes. in this case, especially since I’m not the one who is in the crosshairs, i understand her pain
Truth be told, there’s this giant argument in support of this side: the person is on H1B work visa. Which makes one think twice before slacking off on the job or whatever they were accused of. Compared to residents, the price for not keeping the job is way too high, so I’d rather assume they really worked their arse off.
A friend from India is a recent immigrant (arrived on H1-B) and is now a US citizen. He is working for a company that also has a lot of fellow indians on H1-B visa. His salary is rougly 50% higher (for the same profile), and he gets to go home by 6 PM while they still slog with all the extra work they are expected to do.
Ignoring the fact that H-1B visa holders have to be paid a “prevailing wage”, which makes extremely difficult for them to be 50% underpaid, are you suggesting that your friend has kept the same work profile as recently arrived workers for well over ten years?
I have know Indians who, after almost two decades in the country, finally managed to get ahold a green card. Most I have worked with, have been on H-1B visas for at least eight years. It is hard to believe that someone would have left his or her home country, for a specialized and well paid job in the US, but haven’t progressed at all in the seniority scale in decades.
I have know Indians who, after almost two decades in the country, finally managed to get ahold a green card. Most I have worked with, have been on H-1B visas for at least eight years. It is hard to believe that someone would have left his or her home country, for a specialized and well paid job in the US, but haven’t progressed at all in the seniority scale in decades.
"Prevailing wage" doesn't mean equal wages because there's no such thing - there's a payscale for every position, and it is different in every company. And H1-B visa holders invariably get the lower end of the payscale (often the lowest). This ends up being even lower when they arrive through indian IT consultancy firms.
> are you suggesting that your friend has kept the same work profile as recently arrived workers for well over ten years?
I have no idea where you got that idea from. He married a US citizen, and became one himself after a few years. As soon as he became a US citizen, he got an offer from an indian IT consultancy firm with a pay hike of $75,000 based on his multi-national experience / expertise and, ofcourse, the fact that he was a US citizen.
> are you suggesting that your friend has kept the same work profile as recently arrived workers for well over ten years?
I have no idea where you got that idea from. He married a US citizen, and became one himself after a few years. As soon as he became a US citizen, he got an offer from an indian IT consultancy firm with a pay hike of $75,000 based on his multi-national experience / expertise and, ofcourse, the fact that he was a US citizen.
> "Prevailing wage" doesn't mean equal wages because there's no such thing - there's a payscale for every position, and it is different in every company. And H1-B visa holders invariably get the lower end of the payscale (often the lowest).
I went through this process, and when they calculated the prevailing wage for my position, it was a number, not a range. It is calculated as the average of wages for all similar positions, in the same place of employment, and there is a minimum of $60,000, as far as I understand, at least for H-1B visas.
If a company were to pay less to visa holders than to their peers, it would be committing fraud.
> I have no idea where you got that idea from. He married a US citizen, and became one himself after a few years.
Essentially, because applying for US citizenship takes several years. Green card through marriage may take up to 3 years, and US citizenship takes at least another 5, so that may make around 8 years. I assumed your friend came to the US as a professional with a H-1B visa, and went down the full process, from H-1B, to green card, to citizenship, which, for an Indian national, may take even decades.
Point is, if this person was making around the same amount of money as recently arrived visa holders, even after several years in the US, and only started receiving better wages with a change in citizenship status, there must be something else to it. Either way, it seems strange that a H-1B holder would stay in a position for many years, without no effective wage increases at all.
> As soon as he became a US citizen, he got an offer from an indian IT consultancy firm with a pay hike of $75,000 based on his multi-national experience / expertise and, ofcourse, the fact that he was a US citizen.
Sadly, that is the modus operandi of certain IT consultancy firms, especially Indian ones.
It may be fraud. It is not like this has not happened before[1][2]. But this does not mean that the system rules are broken, it may mean that the enforcement of such rules is inadequate.
To clarify, earning $75,000 more than people in a similar position is not fraud per se, but people making less than the mandatory average is. And given that H-1B visa holders must make at least $60,000, I'm not capable of understanding how this company calculates prevailing wages without committing blatant fraud.
[1] https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/technolo...
[2] https://theworld.org/stories/2014-01-02/indian-tech-worker-h...
I went through this process, and when they calculated the prevailing wage for my position, it was a number, not a range. It is calculated as the average of wages for all similar positions, in the same place of employment, and there is a minimum of $60,000, as far as I understand, at least for H-1B visas.
If a company were to pay less to visa holders than to their peers, it would be committing fraud.
> I have no idea where you got that idea from. He married a US citizen, and became one himself after a few years.
Essentially, because applying for US citizenship takes several years. Green card through marriage may take up to 3 years, and US citizenship takes at least another 5, so that may make around 8 years. I assumed your friend came to the US as a professional with a H-1B visa, and went down the full process, from H-1B, to green card, to citizenship, which, for an Indian national, may take even decades.
Point is, if this person was making around the same amount of money as recently arrived visa holders, even after several years in the US, and only started receiving better wages with a change in citizenship status, there must be something else to it. Either way, it seems strange that a H-1B holder would stay in a position for many years, without no effective wage increases at all.
> As soon as he became a US citizen, he got an offer from an indian IT consultancy firm with a pay hike of $75,000 based on his multi-national experience / expertise and, ofcourse, the fact that he was a US citizen.
Sadly, that is the modus operandi of certain IT consultancy firms, especially Indian ones.
It may be fraud. It is not like this has not happened before[1][2]. But this does not mean that the system rules are broken, it may mean that the enforcement of such rules is inadequate.
To clarify, earning $75,000 more than people in a similar position is not fraud per se, but people making less than the mandatory average is. And given that H-1B visa holders must make at least $60,000, I'm not capable of understanding how this company calculates prevailing wages without committing blatant fraud.
[1] https://www.business-standard.com/article/companies/technolo...
[2] https://theworld.org/stories/2014-01-02/indian-tech-worker-h...
I think loopholes are possible and are being used whenever feasible. What if prevailing wage is uniformly low, it’s just that employees who are more equal than others receive bonuses?
If wages are low, H-1B workers wages would still be on par with those of their peers. It is already illegal to set wages otherwise.
There is a minimum prevailing wage per level, set by the government agency in charge, and bonuses and other incentives too count towards median annual wages.
The H-1B program is flawed, yes, but not for the reasons most people think of. It is effectively used by many IT consultancy companies, especially Indian ones, to bring workers to the US, and essentially keep them captive through several methods.
There is a minimum prevailing wage per level, set by the government agency in charge, and bonuses and other incentives too count towards median annual wages.
The H-1B program is flawed, yes, but not for the reasons most people think of. It is effectively used by many IT consultancy companies, especially Indian ones, to bring workers to the US, and essentially keep them captive through several methods.
Lemme guess, the non-cititens also dream of getting residence or citizenship and work humanly hours and go home at six while their slack will be picked up by the next wave of serfs. Bonus if they can boss around some.
Working hard or being motivated to work hard isn’t the same thing as being a good employee though. We’ve all known employees who work hard (or think they do) but don’t contribute much, or cause problems in other ways.
I still think there’s a problem. If they are smart enough to go through the infamous circles of interviews at the fucking google and be deemed worthy, then work through the circles of immigration hell, and then you see they are working hard but not smart enough, I dunno, have you tried talking to them? It’s not like they became stupid overnight.
I don’t think getting through interviews at Google implies anything more than being good at getting through interviews at Google.
But at this point it's Google's problem, moreover, a problem it inflicted unto itself, especially since they make people jump through all the hoops and organize long, multi-stage interviews, complete with tricky questions, specifically to make sure they find people who really know their shit and weed out con persons.
I mean, you know and I know that passing exhausting interviews and actually doing work are two distinct skills (I, for one, blanket refuse to apply for any and all jobs where there are more than two interviews), but it seems that some large companies think they know better than that. Well, they can cry me a river.
I mean, you know and I know that passing exhausting interviews and actually doing work are two distinct skills (I, for one, blanket refuse to apply for any and all jobs where there are more than two interviews), but it seems that some large companies think they know better than that. Well, they can cry me a river.
in fairness, it’s easy to continue to be naive when you give the biggest corporation on earth, more or less, every possible benefit of the doubt
Assuming this one-sided story to be true, let this serve as yet another reminder that Human Resources is designed to protect the employer - not the employee. The cynic in me would go so far as to say one should generally avoid reporting anything to HR at all costs. It almost never works out the way one would hope.
I agree completely that HR mostly exists to protect the management and company, but I wouldn't go as far to say that you should always avoid them - a paper trail with HR often helps with any lawsuit.
HR should be managed. Situations are complex. HR exists to protect the company, but the company isn't necessarily your boss or your direct management. If the CEO is sexually harassing women, and acting racist, HR will probably protect them. Anyone below that? It depends.
Anyone who raises issues is a potential liability risk, so HR is naturally inclined to work people who frivolously raise issues out of the company. Same thing for raising issues in inappropriate ways (e.g. a twitter thread).
At the same time, if someone above you is a /real/ risk, many HR departments do want to know about that. If your boss is sexually harassing women and acting racist, they're a liability to their boss and the company as a whole. Taking bribes? There are ways to manage that through most HR departments.
Most companies have trainings about the types of issues which ought to be raised, the contexts, and how. This is not a general rule, but for my current employer, I think the training is spot-on for what's expected of employees here:
* Raising issues appropriately is exactly the expected thing to do.
* Following up, and expecting they get acted on is not.
HR expects to be able to conduct a discrete investigation. If there isn't evidence, one should expect that nothing will happen except for a paper record. If you were sexually harassed by a manager, but it's a he-said-she-said, that's where it ends. Once a few employees claim they were sexually harassed by the same manager though, that person will be gone.
That's my current employer. I've seen this all over the map. My previous employer, I'd recommend /never/ going to HR.
Anyone who raises issues is a potential liability risk, so HR is naturally inclined to work people who frivolously raise issues out of the company. Same thing for raising issues in inappropriate ways (e.g. a twitter thread).
At the same time, if someone above you is a /real/ risk, many HR departments do want to know about that. If your boss is sexually harassing women and acting racist, they're a liability to their boss and the company as a whole. Taking bribes? There are ways to manage that through most HR departments.
Most companies have trainings about the types of issues which ought to be raised, the contexts, and how. This is not a general rule, but for my current employer, I think the training is spot-on for what's expected of employees here:
* Raising issues appropriately is exactly the expected thing to do.
* Following up, and expecting they get acted on is not.
HR expects to be able to conduct a discrete investigation. If there isn't evidence, one should expect that nothing will happen except for a paper record. If you were sexually harassed by a manager, but it's a he-said-she-said, that's where it ends. Once a few employees claim they were sexually harassed by the same manager though, that person will be gone.
That's my current employer. I've seen this all over the map. My previous employer, I'd recommend /never/ going to HR.
And has to be weighted against HR knowing this game better than you and beginning steps to establish the narrative that you are incompetent. If you think you need to sue a company you should probably ask your own lawyer before sending anything to HR.
hr is like the police. they are the servants of the upperclass, and their job is to do whatever the board wants, while keeping it legal and keeping the company immune from lawsuits as much as possible
I always say “congratulations” to people who have been fired or let go from a job. While the process itself can be painful, the act of letting go of one part of our lives and moving on to the next can be an opportunity to grow and find lasting joy. Hanging on will just bring suffering and delay the joy that is possible!
Choose a path, oh fired one.
Path A) Publicly call out your manager by name and encourage people to spam senior leaders who had literally nothing to do with it and didn't know you existed.
Path B) Leetcode and have 10 interviews lined up by next week, since you're obviously competent enough to get hired at Google.
Path A is the wrong answer, and really self destructive. The worship of Google and other FAANG companies needs to stop. It's pathetic frankly.
Google isn't even in the top tier in terms of compensation anymore. You can earn 20-50% more at equivalent levels at tier 2 companies just below FAANGs.
Path A) Publicly call out your manager by name and encourage people to spam senior leaders who had literally nothing to do with it and didn't know you existed.
Path B) Leetcode and have 10 interviews lined up by next week, since you're obviously competent enough to get hired at Google.
Path A is the wrong answer, and really self destructive. The worship of Google and other FAANG companies needs to stop. It's pathetic frankly.
Google isn't even in the top tier in terms of compensation anymore. You can earn 20-50% more at equivalent levels at tier 2 companies just below FAANGs.
1. If she was the one who initiated HR complaint against her manager, she should have started keeping proofs on a separate device (other than her work laptop). It's a mistake if she didn't do so.
2. Naming names on twitter reflects very badly for her for future opportunities. But, she is ex google and should not have trouble finding a new job
2. Naming names on twitter reflects very badly for her for future opportunities. But, she is ex google and should not have trouble finding a new job
I spoke recently about.my experience being fired by Google, and how Google is better than most, but you can still be managed out with relative ease if your manager doesn't like you - An unfavorable review cycle makes it impossible for you to find another team, and makes it easy for them to give you low impact work, which makes it easy for them to give you a negative review. Being managed out isn't hard, anywhere.
So either the 50 algo round interviews did not succeed at eliminating false positives or Google has some shit managers.
rStar(1)