TypeScript is terrible for library developers(erock.prose.sh)
erock.prose.sh
TypeScript is terrible for library developers
https://erock.prose.sh/typescript-terrible-for-library-developers
337 comments
> In other words, I call bullshit on this entire blog post. Ignore it. Typescript is the correct solution. What is the alternative? Just using JS and letting things break without knowing it?
It seems like you and I read a different article. The post I read did not advocate for going back to JS; rather it advocated for better tooling and documentation (with examples, ideally) for library developers
It's not an especially large library, but I felt all of the pain points the author describes. It's great that you didn't with your library (and I'm sure there are large classes of libraries whose authors wouldn't feel these pain points), but it's a very real issue if your dealing heavily with generics, serialization/deserialization, and/or complex type interactions
It seems like you and I read a different article. The post I read did not advocate for going back to JS; rather it advocated for better tooling and documentation (with examples, ideally) for library developers
Conclusion
I love typescript and think the team working on it are incredible. Typescript has completely changed the FE landscape and wouldn't want to dismiss its contributions.
But as a library developer, we need:
- better documentation,
- better tooling, and
- to spend less time making tsc happy.
I shouldn't have to read the typescript compiler source code in order to figure out why it's resolving a piece of my code to a specific type.
It's not an especially large library, but I felt all of the pain points the author describes. It's great that you didn't with your library (and I'm sure there are large classes of libraries whose authors wouldn't feel these pain points), but it's a very real issue if your dealing heavily with generics, serialization/deserialization, and/or complex type interactions
You answered your own question, learn how typing and generics work and you wouldn’t have had those issues.
The entire article persecuted TS because the author wanted to learn quicker with little effort. Writing TypeScript in a node, app or library makes no difference. It is a language, NOT a framework.
The entire article persecuted TS because the author wanted to learn quicker with little effort. Writing TypeScript in a node, app or library makes no difference. It is a language, NOT a framework.
Yes, and a great way to do that is to read documentation, of which Typescript is frequently lacking. For example, I got a suggestion in the discord recently to use "generic parameter defaults" for a problem I was having, which were documented... in the release notes for Typescript 2.3... and no where else: https://www.typescriptlang.org/docs/handbook/release-notes/t...
I love Typescript but I just don’t think this is correct. Look at the Node documentation and then the Typescript documentation. The former tries to describe every behavior, the latter tries to give you a 101 in the feature. This is especially clear when it comes to the Deno and SWC teams’ attempts to reimplement tsc in a faster language - typescript doesn’t have a spec so they’re stuck looking at the tsc codebase to infer behavior.
I think you intended this as a reply to someone else. Or at least, it sounds like you're agreeing with me.
> Yes, and a great way to do that is to read documentation, of which Typescript is frequently lacking.
I completely disagree, and I was surprised by this sort of comment.
Find me a single programming language whose docs are as good as TypeScript's docs and reference. I'd be surprised if you could come up with a single example.
I completely disagree, and I was surprised by this sort of comment.
Find me a single programming language whose docs are as good as TypeScript's docs and reference. I'd be surprised if you could come up with a single example.
I think others have covered it here, but I want to point out that I actually think Typescript's docs are quite good for end-users! But, like the article here points out, lacking, for library authors.
There are lots of ways to do things that you kind of just have to learn from reading blog posts, or reading code and then asking in the discord when you see something undocumented (because have you tried googling "what does <T=...> in Typescript mean"?).
Ideally, at the very least, all syntactic features and keywords of the language should be documented, but it's more than that; Typescript is a metalanguage, and authors of many libraries have also developed patterns which are essential for describing complex types. Some of these patterns are documented (for example, discriminating union), and some are not (for example, opaque types). And some features which are documented could do with a lot more exposition and functional examples ("as const"), or notes on when to avoid (enum).
There are lots of ways to do things that you kind of just have to learn from reading blog posts, or reading code and then asking in the discord when you see something undocumented (because have you tried googling "what does <T=...> in Typescript mean"?).
Ideally, at the very least, all syntactic features and keywords of the language should be documented, but it's more than that; Typescript is a metalanguage, and authors of many libraries have also developed patterns which are essential for describing complex types. Some of these patterns are documented (for example, discriminating union), and some are not (for example, opaque types). And some features which are documented could do with a lot more exposition and functional examples ("as const"), or notes on when to avoid (enum).
First hit for "Typescript equals in generic" is https://stackoverflow.com/questions/56843790/typescript-gene... which explains it. No search results in the docs, sure, but the very first hit for the first query I tried gave me the answer.
Whilst that's good, the TS documents should document this. Google searching and stackoverflow is not a valid replacement for actual documentation, IMO.
Certainly they should document it, but as an answer to "(because have you tried googling "what does <T=...> in Typescript mean"?)", I think it seems pretty conclusive :P
> because have you tried googling "what does <T=...> in Typescript mean"?
Search “typescript generics syntax” and you get the excellent TypeScript docs on generics as the first result. It covers generic constraints.
Search “typescript generics syntax” and you get the excellent TypeScript docs on generics as the first result. It covers generic constraints.
> It covers generic constraints.
Indeed, but I'm not sure how that's relevant since it doesn't cover generic parameter defaults.
Indeed, but I'm not sure how that's relevant since it doesn't cover generic parameter defaults.
C#, C++, Java (actually I am betting no one can beat that one)
I think you dismissed the actual issue he faced- gen type defaults, which I just looked is still not actually documented, it's just in the release notes.
Don't get me wrong, TS is my favorite language, but let's not gloss over things.
I think you dismissed the actual issue he faced- gen type defaults, which I just looked is still not actually documented, it's just in the release notes.
Don't get me wrong, TS is my favorite language, but let's not gloss over things.
My career has been 95% c#.
Recently learning rust (spare time) and c++ for work. The documentation for these 2 are awesome!
PostgreSQL has great docs too
I think we are better at writing docs for programming languages than we are at libraries and frameworks. Maybe because languages are more ‘fixed’ and less likely to change so over time they just get better and better.
Recently learning rust (spare time) and c++ for work. The documentation for these 2 are awesome!
PostgreSQL has great docs too
I think we are better at writing docs for programming languages than we are at libraries and frameworks. Maybe because languages are more ‘fixed’ and less likely to change so over time they just get better and better.
You picked two of the best documented projects around in Rust and PostgreSQL. I don't think that inferior documentation for libraries is a foregone conclusion. Rust's serde library is exceptionally well documented IMO.
It's a matter of having the skill and the will though, and I feel like a lot of projects simply don't emphasize documentation. Even so, not everyone's going to be a good technical writer.
It's a matter of having the skill and the will though, and I feel like a lot of projects simply don't emphasize documentation. Even so, not everyone's going to be a good technical writer.
What I mean is I think in general languages tend to have better docs.
Vue has excellent docs imo.
But in terms of technical writing being a skill. I agree. I appreciate the effort people put into docs. I try my best but I’m not very good. So I have a lot of respect for anyone who can sit and write excellent docs.
Vue has excellent docs imo.
But in terms of technical writing being a skill. I agree. I appreciate the effort people put into docs. I try my best but I’m not very good. So I have a lot of respect for anyone who can sit and write excellent docs.
It's been a long time since I've dug for C++ docs but in general I found Qt to be well documented (if a bit disorganized with the newer stuff). STL documentation always seemed inaccessible to me, but then again I'm working off of some pretty hazy memories.
Commercially supported software Qt (and in the parent post, Vue) tend to have good docs. It makes sense: supporting developers is their business model. Likewise tools with ecosystems of companies (postgresql) tend to get good docs over time. The bigger pain points are tools supported by a major company ... but that used by the business rather than sold. There probably are _some_ good docs - especially at the project launch or major milestones - but they aren't as actively curated.
> Find me a single programming language whose docs are as good as TypeScript's docs and reference.
This is a non sequitur. Typescript can be bad even if other languages are worse.
The argument being made in the article and this discussion isn't "use X instead of Typescript" it's "Typescript should be improved".
This is a non sequitur. Typescript can be bad even if other languages are worse.
The argument being made in the article and this discussion isn't "use X instead of Typescript" it's "Typescript should be improved".
Is the argument "Typescript should be improved" or "We should allocate enough time/money from other things to improve Typescript"?
The former is vacuously true once you know it is an option. Everything would be better if it could be improved.
The latter is subject to questions about cost. If Typescript had best in its class docs, that would imply that other communities had failed to find or execute a practical option to turn time/money into docs improvements. That would be moderately persuasive evidence that Typescript's resources are better spent elsewhere.
---------
On an object level: Django and the python community tend to have great docs.
The former is vacuously true once you know it is an option. Everything would be better if it could be improved.
The latter is subject to questions about cost. If Typescript had best in its class docs, that would imply that other communities had failed to find or execute a practical option to turn time/money into docs improvements. That would be moderately persuasive evidence that Typescript's resources are better spent elsewhere.
---------
On an object level: Django and the python community tend to have great docs.
It could also be about refocusing within the Typescript project.
Golang has https://pkg.go.dev.
Rust has https://docs.rs
Golang entire standard library is documented. Plus with how the language is designed docs don’t need to change with new versions. Just with new functions.
Golang entire standard library is documented. Plus with how the language is designed docs don’t need to change with new versions. Just with new functions.
More importantly, golang has https://go.dev/ref/spec — most of the time I wished for better TypeScript documentation it's about syntax (though I did need to go read the default bundled libraries a couple times for details, that's rarer).
PHP used to have amazing documentation back in the days.
Everything spelled out. No "you must read the whole thing or have worked with it for years to understand page 5".
Plenty of inline examples and even more user submitted ones (although as with all user generated content, some caution should be used when reading those).
Everything spelled out. No "you must read the whole thing or have worked with it for years to understand page 5".
Plenty of inline examples and even more user submitted ones (although as with all user generated content, some caution should be used when reading those).
Have we used the same PHP? IME it's usually necessary to read the comments on the documentation for important information, which is frequently totally absent in the actual documentation.
Haven't used PHP seriously for a decade I think so I might have a bit of rose tinted glasses.
But I am fairly certain that like the Perl documentation and unlike Java and Spring docs none of them was infuriating.
But I am fairly certain that like the Perl documentation and unlike Java and Spring docs none of them was infuriating.
JavaScript
Do you have an example? I've seen TypeScript handle crazy nested types (and generics) with ease.
Perhaps the React-Query source itself is a good example of when "simple" is still not "easy to read/write":
I picked out this file pretty arbitrarily: https://github.com/TanStack/query/blob/main/packages/react-q...
The author of react-query seems to be very clear at communicating how the library works and the library itself provides a great developer experience, but it's also an example of how much work can go into correct typing in library code.
I picked out this file pretty arbitrarily: https://github.com/TanStack/query/blob/main/packages/react-q...
The author of react-query seems to be very clear at communicating how the library works and the library itself provides a great developer experience, but it's also an example of how much work can go into correct typing in library code.
I recently typed my state for zustand (react library for managing state) and it was a horrible experience.
An example from the docs with middleware:
https://docs.pmnd.rs/zustand/typescript#middleware-that-chan...
If anyone calls this “easy, just learn generics” I won’t believe them further.
An example from the docs with middleware:
https://docs.pmnd.rs/zustand/typescript#middleware-that-chan...
If anyone calls this “easy, just learn generics” I won’t believe them further.
Honestly, if that's what it takes to make something work with Typescript I'm surprised anyone uses it. I thought Scala/Cats was the only language/cult that indulged typism to this extent. **d save us from the static typing Spanish Inquisition and bring back dynamic languages.
Seeing one the worst implementation of static typing and then blaming static typing as a whole is unfair. gradual typing is just an abomination in practice as can be seen in both TS and Python. Maybe a language that's build from the start with gradual typing in mind can make it good but I doubt it. Static and dynamic typing are just at odds in general.
The types in Typescript are amazing. I believe they’re turing complete? The problem is that this allows people to do many really complicated things that’d just be avoided or impossible in other languages.
Typescript is a horrible as you make it.
Typescript is a horrible as you make it.
Yeah, this is the sentiment I keep feeling looking at most of the examples being provided in this thread and the article. A lot of the things people are doing here aren't even possible in most static typed object oriented languages or are hard to do and generally discouraged, and violate things like the Liskov Substitution Principle and Open/Closed Principle (especially the Open/Closed Principle; many of these examples are redux adjacent and a lot of them require modifying existing State object instances rather than extending them at a class level per the principle).
Many of these things are easy to do in JS because JS wasn't built to be static typed object oriented language. Many of these are hard to type because the underlying language is so permissive.
As library authors the desire is to be as permissive as possible, to use the "simplicity" of the untyped JS language to express an API surface that accepts any combination of possible inputs and does the greatest amount of work with that. There are many "JS native" libraries that do that, including JQuery's $ "operator" that was a swiss army knife of a million different tasks all using a single constructor which created object instances that any number of plugins mutated over time. As a JQuery user that was a very easy experience to work with, it's permissivity felt like simplicity and easy-to-learn. As someone who briefly spent time debugging JQuery types definitions in Typescript, that was an incredible nightmare. (That was also many, many versions of Typescript back with fewer typing tools, many of which would have helped a lot, but also made everything even more complex than it was at the time.)
I do feel like a lot of library authors sometimes need to ask themselves as types grow more complicated in their libraries if the trade-offs are worth it. That "simple" API they are trying to give their users, is there a more "complicated" API with simpler types to use instead? Sometimes that's actually the simpler API to use understand too, but many of your end users see your types indirectly and simpler types in the API are simpler experiences of those types.
The article mentions needing to add lots of overloads and that's specifically something I'm thinking about there. Another example in this thread included a function that could take a set of arguments as either an object ({ a?: thing, b?: someOtherThing, c?: thirdThing }) or tuple ([a, b, c]: [thing, someOtherThing?, thirdThing?]) and in both cases many of the parts were optional, complicated further by the thing type being generic itself and the tuple accepting different orders of parameters. Can you just pick one, object or tuple for your API? Users have "less freedom" to do as they wish and the result seems less "simple", but you can eliminate so much complexity in your types. If you do still need both ways, maybe it's reasonable to split from "overloads" to different functions setThingsObject(things: { a?: thing, b?: someOtherThing, c?: thirdThing }) versus setThingsQuickly(things: [thing?, someOtherThing?, thirdThing? ]).
It's easy to armchair quarterback refactor other people's APIs, of course, but it's certainly a factor when I'm building my own APIs: These types are starting to get complicated here, should I refactor to simpler types? Should this API be split into two different/distinct endpoints to simplify the type signature? And so forth.
Some complexity is unavoidable, of course, but sometimes it is worth trading "simple, permissive JS with incredibly complex types" for "tedious explosion of JS that looks complex at first glance with incredibly simple types". It's a deep trade-off space to explore and what's right for any individual project is deeply personal opinion.
Many of these things are easy to do in JS because JS wasn't built to be static typed object oriented language. Many of these are hard to type because the underlying language is so permissive.
As library authors the desire is to be as permissive as possible, to use the "simplicity" of the untyped JS language to express an API surface that accepts any combination of possible inputs and does the greatest amount of work with that. There are many "JS native" libraries that do that, including JQuery's $ "operator" that was a swiss army knife of a million different tasks all using a single constructor which created object instances that any number of plugins mutated over time. As a JQuery user that was a very easy experience to work with, it's permissivity felt like simplicity and easy-to-learn. As someone who briefly spent time debugging JQuery types definitions in Typescript, that was an incredible nightmare. (That was also many, many versions of Typescript back with fewer typing tools, many of which would have helped a lot, but also made everything even more complex than it was at the time.)
I do feel like a lot of library authors sometimes need to ask themselves as types grow more complicated in their libraries if the trade-offs are worth it. That "simple" API they are trying to give their users, is there a more "complicated" API with simpler types to use instead? Sometimes that's actually the simpler API to use understand too, but many of your end users see your types indirectly and simpler types in the API are simpler experiences of those types.
The article mentions needing to add lots of overloads and that's specifically something I'm thinking about there. Another example in this thread included a function that could take a set of arguments as either an object ({ a?: thing, b?: someOtherThing, c?: thirdThing }) or tuple ([a, b, c]: [thing, someOtherThing?, thirdThing?]) and in both cases many of the parts were optional, complicated further by the thing type being generic itself and the tuple accepting different orders of parameters. Can you just pick one, object or tuple for your API? Users have "less freedom" to do as they wish and the result seems less "simple", but you can eliminate so much complexity in your types. If you do still need both ways, maybe it's reasonable to split from "overloads" to different functions setThingsObject(things: { a?: thing, b?: someOtherThing, c?: thirdThing }) versus setThingsQuickly(things: [thing?, someOtherThing?, thirdThing? ]).
It's easy to armchair quarterback refactor other people's APIs, of course, but it's certainly a factor when I'm building my own APIs: These types are starting to get complicated here, should I refactor to simpler types? Should this API be split into two different/distinct endpoints to simplify the type signature? And so forth.
Some complexity is unavoidable, of course, but sometimes it is worth trading "simple, permissive JS with incredibly complex types" for "tedious explosion of JS that looks complex at first glance with incredibly simple types". It's a deep trade-off space to explore and what's right for any individual project is deeply personal opinion.
We use Rematch/Redux for state management and typing it[1] was pretty easy.
I think it really depends.
[1] https://rematchjs.org/docs/getting-started/typescript
I think it really depends.
[1] https://rematchjs.org/docs/getting-started/typescript
That is terrible. Good luck onboarding new developers or junior team members into your project.
I get playing with technology for side projects, but for something commercial there is no way I would sign off on including that package into a project.
I get playing with technology for side projects, but for something commercial there is no way I would sign off on including that package into a project.
Did you miss this example from the linked post about redux-toolkit? https://github.com/reduxjs/redux-toolkit/blob/4ab8c42cb20ae1...
This is what types look like when you're on the library side. The post made very clear they aren't talking about the app dev side. The library types are complex like this so that the app devs have a smoother experience.
This is what types look like when you're on the library side. The post made very clear they aren't talking about the app dev side. The library types are complex like this so that the app devs have a smoother experience.
Might help understanding if the author used ‘meaningful’ variable names…
It would be more understandable if you didn’t use single letter type names (someone posted an example from react-query elsewhere)
Those are some huge ternary ifs
I really wish Typescript had a great pattern matching system. It would be very nice indeed for structural typing, everything would be easier to read, probably some ways to add more power/expressivity, etc.
eg
I really wish Typescript had a great pattern matching system. It would be very nice indeed for structural typing, everything would be easier to read, probably some ways to add more power/expressivity, etc.
eg
type GetOptions<T> =
// Part 1: responsible for applying explicit type parameter to function arguments, if object { queryFnData: TQueryFnData, error: TError, data: TData }
T extends {
queryFnData: infer TQueryFnData
error?: infer TError
data: infer TData
}
? UseQueryOptionsForUseQueries<TQueryFnData, TError, TData>
: T extends { queryFnData: infer TQueryFnData; error?: infer TError }
? UseQueryOptionsForUseQueries<TQueryFnData, TError>
: T extends { data: infer TData; error?: infer TError }
? UseQueryOptionsForUseQueries<unknown, TError, TData>
: // Part 2: responsible for applying explicit type parameter to function arguments, if tuple [TQueryFnData, TError, TData]
T extends [infer TQueryFnData, infer TError, infer TData]
// ...
type GetOptions<T> =
// Part 1: responsible for applying explicit type parameter to function arguments, if object { queryFnData: TQueryFnData, error: TError, data: TData }
T extends match {
{ queryFnData: infer TQueryFnData, error?: infer TError, data: infer TData } => UseQueryOptionsForUseQueries<TQueryFnData, TError, TData>
{ queryFnData: infer TQueryFnData; error?: infer TError } => UseQueryOptionsForUseQueries<TQueryFnData, TError>,
{ data: infer TData; error?: infer TError } => UseQueryOptionsForUseQueries<unknown, TError, TData>,
[infer TQueryFnData, infer TError, infer TData] => UseQueryOptionsForUseQueries<TQueryFnData, TError, TData>
[infer TQueryFnData, infer TError] => UseQueryOptionsForUseQueries<TQueryFnData, TError>
// ...
}
type GetOptions<T> =
T extends match {
Part1 => Part1Match
Part2 => Part2Match
Part3 => Part3Match
}
IME it's precisely the expressivity of nested types and generics and variations thereof that makes it hard for the library author.
The expressivity makes it possible for library authors have IntelliSense give more useful suggestions to the consumer, make automatic inference work in more places for the consumer, and make more illegal usage be impossible, at the expense of complicated type constructs. But of course all these is somewhat optional.
The expressivity makes it possible for library authors have IntelliSense give more useful suggestions to the consumer, make automatic inference work in more places for the consumer, and make more illegal usage be impossible, at the expense of complicated type constructs. But of course all these is somewhat optional.
What library is this I was looking for a good cache to store network results quite recently?
It's not open-source or really polished for consumption. I did get permission to open-source it, but unfortunately didn't have the time to improve it to the point where it would be broadly useful.
In fact, now that https://tanstack.com/query/v4/docs/plugins/persistQueryClien... appears to be stable I'm thinking it might even be good to migrate to this (though it appears to require multiple queryclients if you want different cache parameters)
In fact, now that https://tanstack.com/query/v4/docs/plugins/persistQueryClien... appears to be stable I'm thinking it might even be good to migrate to this (though it appears to require multiple queryclients if you want different cache parameters)
> Typescript is the correct solution. What is the alternative? Just using JS and letting things break without knowing it? Come on.
Surely that's not the only alternative.
Here's a few off the top of my head:
- Being able to write complex types in a syntax that more closely resembles JavaScript. Using Array length for counting or nested ternaries for if logic gets old fast.
- Being able to debug types, not console output, a real debugger. See: https://twitter.com/MarcJSchmidt/status/1539787500788613120
- More comprehensive documentation on writing advanced types
- A typescript specification
Surely that's not the only alternative.
Here's a few off the top of my head:
- Being able to write complex types in a syntax that more closely resembles JavaScript. Using Array length for counting or nested ternaries for if logic gets old fast.
- Being able to debug types, not console output, a real debugger. See: https://twitter.com/MarcJSchmidt/status/1539787500788613120
- More comprehensive documentation on writing advanced types
- A typescript specification
> Being able to write complex types in a syntax that more closely resembles JavaScript
Yikes. This is how you end up in preprocessor hell. Macros are generally not a good thing. (Fyi: TS types are already Turing-complete which is arguably a mistake.)
> Being able to debug types, not console output
Eh. It's not like Java has a "type debugger." Why is this needed? Why are your types so complex? Weird ask.
> More comprehensive documentation on writing advanced types
Really beating the same drum here.
> A typescript specification
What does this mean? We have a pretty clear typescript spec[1].
[1] https://github.com/microsoft/TypeScript/blob/main/doc/spec-A...
Yikes. This is how you end up in preprocessor hell. Macros are generally not a good thing. (Fyi: TS types are already Turing-complete which is arguably a mistake.)
> Being able to debug types, not console output
Eh. It's not like Java has a "type debugger." Why is this needed? Why are your types so complex? Weird ask.
> More comprehensive documentation on writing advanced types
Really beating the same drum here.
> A typescript specification
What does this mean? We have a pretty clear typescript spec[1].
[1] https://github.com/microsoft/TypeScript/blob/main/doc/spec-A...
> Yikes. This is how you end up in preprocessor hell. Macros are generally not a good thing.
Not suggesting macros, rather an alternative way to define types. A function that accepts and returns types. Seeing as typescript has a JavaScript interpreter I thought it might be feasible but I'm just spitballing it.
> Eh. It's not like Java has a "type debugger." Why is this needed? Why are your types so complex? Weird ask.
I don't buy this argument. Writing any type of complex types with recursion, arrays or ternaries sucks and it will take more than "this is how Java does it" to convince me otherwise. I like to debug with a debugger, not my head.
Take a look at the examples in the article to see some complex types and read some tweets from library authors complaining on twitter. I can find some examples if you're interested.
> We have a pretty clear typescript spec
I hadn't actually seen this and it looks interesting but seems pretty out of date, Typescript 1.8?
Not suggesting macros, rather an alternative way to define types. A function that accepts and returns types. Seeing as typescript has a JavaScript interpreter I thought it might be feasible but I'm just spitballing it.
> Eh. It's not like Java has a "type debugger." Why is this needed? Why are your types so complex? Weird ask.
I don't buy this argument. Writing any type of complex types with recursion, arrays or ternaries sucks and it will take more than "this is how Java does it" to convince me otherwise. I like to debug with a debugger, not my head.
Take a look at the examples in the article to see some complex types and read some tweets from library authors complaining on twitter. I can find some examples if you're interested.
> We have a pretty clear typescript spec
I hadn't actually seen this and it looks interesting but seems pretty out of date, Typescript 1.8?
> Why are your types so complex?
The article (and ensuing discussion) are about _library_ code, which necessarily has types that are orders of magnitude more complex than application code (source: see some of the links in the article).
The reason this isn't a problem in Java, C# etc is that the things these libraries do simply _aren't possible_ in the Java type system, so no one does them, and users end up with (usually) clunkier libraries.
The article (and ensuing discussion) are about _library_ code, which necessarily has types that are orders of magnitude more complex than application code (source: see some of the links in the article).
The reason this isn't a problem in Java, C# etc is that the things these libraries do simply _aren't possible_ in the Java type system, so no one does them, and users end up with (usually) clunkier libraries.
React has its roots in StandardML and it's showing them here. Java, C# (and ma y other languages) barely scrape the surface of what you can do with a type system.
Now there's definitely a question of when you start hitting diminishing returns but you can definitely do so much with and extract confidence from very strongly typed languages.
Now there's definitely a question of when you start hitting diminishing returns but you can definitely do so much with and extract confidence from very strongly typed languages.
> React has its roots in StandardML
Really? This is fascinating, is there anywhere with more on this?
Really? This is fascinating, is there anywhere with more on this?
> The article (and ensuing discussion) are about _library_ code, which necessarily has types that are orders of magnitude more complex than application code (source: see some of the links in the article).
Are you somehow implying that C++ or Java don't have libraries? As a sidenote, React (and that entire ecosystem) is an architectural hellscape (see Vue for much more streamlined & cleaner code).
Are you somehow implying that C++ or Java don't have libraries? As a sidenote, React (and that entire ecosystem) is an architectural hellscape (see Vue for much more streamlined & cleaner code).
No, I'm just saying the libraries in those languages tend to be designed differently, to accommodate the more limited type systems (but I don't use C++, so I'm sure templates can do a lot of things I'm not aware of).
I'm also not necessarily saying this is a good or bad thing overall, since it can so easily lead to extra complexity.
FWIW, I'd choose C#/Rust/Kotlin/etc over TS 100% of the time for projects that don't need to run in a browser.
I'm also not necessarily saying this is a good or bad thing overall, since it can so easily lead to extra complexity.
FWIW, I'd choose C#/Rust/Kotlin/etc over TS 100% of the time for projects that don't need to run in a browser.
> - Being able to debug types, not console output, a real debugger. See: https://twitter.com/MarcJSchmidt/status/1539787500788613120
That is really nice. I'd love to see that live.
That is really nice. I'd love to see that live.
Good for you. I was somewhat disappointed with TypeScript in the beginning, because I tried to use the type system like I would use it in Swift or Scala. That's not really a good idea. If instead, you view TypeScript as a smoother implementation of JavaScript + JSDoc, then it becomes a really powerful tool, which I like more and more!
> I call bullshit on this entire blog post.
How? None of what you are talking about directly relates to the article. It feels like you are just reacting to the title and not the contents.
For instance, you say:
> I call bullshit on this entire blog post. Ignore it. Typescript is the correct solution. What is the alternative? Just using JS and letting things break without knowing it? Come on.
But the article says:
> I love typescript and think the team working on it are incredible. Typescript has completely changed the FE landscape and wouldn't want to dismiss its contributions.
> But as a library developer, we need:
> - better documentation,
> - better tooling, and
> - to spend less time making tsc happy.
This is not an article advocating for “just using JS and letting things break”, so why are you reacting as if it is?
How? None of what you are talking about directly relates to the article. It feels like you are just reacting to the title and not the contents.
For instance, you say:
> I call bullshit on this entire blog post. Ignore it. Typescript is the correct solution. What is the alternative? Just using JS and letting things break without knowing it? Come on.
But the article says:
> I love typescript and think the team working on it are incredible. Typescript has completely changed the FE landscape and wouldn't want to dismiss its contributions.
> But as a library developer, we need:
> - better documentation,
> - better tooling, and
> - to spend less time making tsc happy.
This is not an article advocating for “just using JS and letting things break”, so why are you reacting as if it is?
> This is not an article advocating for “just using JS and letting things break”, so why are you reacting as if it is?
Because the tone of the article seems to be that Typescript is horrible, and the tenor seems to be that the author is blaming his own incompetence on the language.
He has a point hidden in there somewhere, but I needed the HN comments to point it out to me.
Because the tone of the article seems to be that Typescript is horrible, and the tenor seems to be that the author is blaming his own incompetence on the language.
He has a point hidden in there somewhere, but I needed the HN comments to point it out to me.
That's... not at _all_ what the author said.
Summarizing the sections:
- Documentation: there's docs on how to use the language as a whole, but nothing focused on writing libraries (how to build/publish, type tricks that libraries may need that apps don't, etc)
- Debugging: debugging types is a nightmare - you basically have to hover over temp variables to see what intermediate values are
- Complexity: TS types for real-world lib code can get complicated
- Testing: testing types is necessary, and the community has had to invent tools to help with that
- Maintenance: maintaining types and responding to issues takes up time
None of those are comments that "TS is horrible". Those are all straightforward concerns with the experience of writing and maintaining a TS-typed library, and as a Redux maintainer I can back up every single one of those. I actually did a talk on "Lessons from Maintaining TS Libraries" a few months ago, and I hit all of those points myself:
https://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/2022/05/presentations-ts-l...
Summarizing the sections:
- Documentation: there's docs on how to use the language as a whole, but nothing focused on writing libraries (how to build/publish, type tricks that libraries may need that apps don't, etc)
- Debugging: debugging types is a nightmare - you basically have to hover over temp variables to see what intermediate values are
- Complexity: TS types for real-world lib code can get complicated
- Testing: testing types is necessary, and the community has had to invent tools to help with that
- Maintenance: maintaining types and responding to issues takes up time
None of those are comments that "TS is horrible". Those are all straightforward concerns with the experience of writing and maintaining a TS-typed library, and as a Redux maintainer I can back up every single one of those. I actually did a talk on "Lessons from Maintaining TS Libraries" a few months ago, and I hit all of those points myself:
https://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/2022/05/presentations-ts-l...
To go through them point by point:
> Documentation: there's docs on how to use the language as a whole, but nothing focused on writing libraries (how to build/publish, type tricks that libraries may need that apps don't, etc)
Why would there be? Building and publishing libraries is a npm thing, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Typescript. Type tricks that libraries may need? If you are going to write a section like that it’s pointless to write it about libraries in specific. There is nothing about building libraries in specific because Typescript isn’t about building libraries.
> Debugging: debugging types is a nightmare - you basically have to hover over temp variables to see what intermediate values are
Sort of, if you’ve managed to make your types complex enough that you cannot reason about them. But then again, I don’t know of any other language that feels the need to provide a type debugger. The fact that people working with Typescript think they need it is either testament to their competence, or the ridiculous constructions they make.
> Complexity: TS types for real-world lib code can get complicated
Well, yeah. But it’s exactly as complicated as you make it.
> Testing: testing types is necessary, and the community has had to invent tools to help with that
I don’t know of any other language that thinks testing types is necessary. The big issue in Typescript is that types don’t guarantee anything about runtime behavior.
> Maintenance: maintaining types and responding to issues takes up time
Well yes. Maintaining any library in any language takes time. Do people think this is unique to Typescript?
I guess my own point mainly comes down to no other language having any of these things, and the OP’s idea that it’s on the TS authors to provide it feels misplaced. It’s not core to the language, and a lot of the problems are self inflicted.
The blog post/slides were interesting though :)
> Documentation: there's docs on how to use the language as a whole, but nothing focused on writing libraries (how to build/publish, type tricks that libraries may need that apps don't, etc)
Why would there be? Building and publishing libraries is a npm thing, and has nothing whatsoever to do with Typescript. Type tricks that libraries may need? If you are going to write a section like that it’s pointless to write it about libraries in specific. There is nothing about building libraries in specific because Typescript isn’t about building libraries.
> Debugging: debugging types is a nightmare - you basically have to hover over temp variables to see what intermediate values are
Sort of, if you’ve managed to make your types complex enough that you cannot reason about them. But then again, I don’t know of any other language that feels the need to provide a type debugger. The fact that people working with Typescript think they need it is either testament to their competence, or the ridiculous constructions they make.
> Complexity: TS types for real-world lib code can get complicated
Well, yeah. But it’s exactly as complicated as you make it.
> Testing: testing types is necessary, and the community has had to invent tools to help with that
I don’t know of any other language that thinks testing types is necessary. The big issue in Typescript is that types don’t guarantee anything about runtime behavior.
> Maintenance: maintaining types and responding to issues takes up time
Well yes. Maintaining any library in any language takes time. Do people think this is unique to Typescript?
I guess my own point mainly comes down to no other language having any of these things, and the OP’s idea that it’s on the TS authors to provide it feels misplaced. It’s not core to the language, and a lot of the problems are self inflicted.
The blog post/slides were interesting though :)
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with all of the above, especially the part about building libs.
Per the OP's article and my slides, there _are_ many aspects of maintaining a lib that are unique to TS above and beyond a plain JS lib, and it would be really helpful to have additional docs and tools available to help with our use cases.
Per the OP's article and my slides, there _are_ many aspects of maintaining a lib that are unique to TS above and beyond a plain JS lib, and it would be really helpful to have additional docs and tools available to help with our use cases.
I agree so much with you.
I would even say: most libraries used for just about anything, are written in C/C++/Java, all of which are typed languages.
The post's author simply lacks the education and experience to actually have a valid opinion on this topic.
I would even say: most libraries used for just about anything, are written in C/C++/Java, all of which are typed languages.
The post's author simply lacks the education and experience to actually have a valid opinion on this topic.
You've both missed the point of the article. The author isn't saying TS (or typed languages in general) are bad, just that the tooling and documentation for _library authors_ could be better.
The things the author talks about aren't even remotely possible in the type systems of pretty much any other mainstream language, so I don't know how you could interpret this as a "TS bad" post if you read past the headline.
The things the author talks about aren't even remotely possible in the type systems of pretty much any other mainstream language, so I don't know how you could interpret this as a "TS bad" post if you read past the headline.
> The post's author simply lacks the education and experience to actually have a valid opinion
Besides your take being just outrageously exclusionary – the author is Eric Bower, a principal engineer who's also a Redux Saga maintainer. They're more than qualified to weigh in on this.
Besides your take being just outrageously exclusionary – the author is Eric Bower, a principal engineer who's also a Redux Saga maintainer. They're more than qualified to weigh in on this.
And their opinion is to push the complexities further up the ladder onto the makers of the tooling.
I’ve seen some crazy assed stuff they do with C++ templates and my reaction isn’t that they need to be spending their time on writing blog posts to explain the dark mysteries to me but that maybe I’m not the one who should be trying to write a library without spending a massive amount of time learning how this stuff works.
Sure, I can beat a template into submission using the famously helpful error messages the compiler provides and some random blog posts by people who actually understand what’s going on and I’m very thankful that they spent the time explaining it. Even having 1000 line long error messages helps once you learn what it is really complaining about. And this isn’t even my literal job, just something I do because I enjoy it.
I’ve seen some crazy assed stuff they do with C++ templates and my reaction isn’t that they need to be spending their time on writing blog posts to explain the dark mysteries to me but that maybe I’m not the one who should be trying to write a library without spending a massive amount of time learning how this stuff works.
Sure, I can beat a template into submission using the famously helpful error messages the compiler provides and some random blog posts by people who actually understand what’s going on and I’m very thankful that they spent the time explaining it. Even having 1000 line long error messages helps once you learn what it is really complaining about. And this isn’t even my literal job, just something I do because I enjoy it.
This is yet another comment indicating the author lacks enough knowledge to even talk about this. Why is this the default response from HN on matters like these?
Might have something to how the author chose to express his opinions. FWIW, I got the same impression from the article, but did not bother to write a comment until now.
IMO, the author could have done better by providing more concrete examples for the points of criticism, and understating the conclusion or moving it to the end or dropping it entirely, as I think it's better to give the reader the choice to make up his own mind, given the facts and evidence.
IMO, the author could have done better by providing more concrete examples for the points of criticism, and understating the conclusion or moving it to the end or dropping it entirely, as I think it's better to give the reader the choice to make up his own mind, given the facts and evidence.
What?
Just because I disagree with their premise (tool writers need to take responsibility for my lack of knowledge) doesn’t mean I think they can’t talk about it.
I mean, if they weren’t talking about it I’d have nothing to disagree with and have to do something productive.
And, you know, appeal to authority isn’t a valid counter argument…
Just because I disagree with their premise (tool writers need to take responsibility for my lack of knowledge) doesn’t mean I think they can’t talk about it.
I mean, if they weren’t talking about it I’d have nothing to disagree with and have to do something productive.
And, you know, appeal to authority isn’t a valid counter argument…
> Just using JS and letting things break without knowing it?
And if types change, and it still works, it's basically working by accident.
And if types change, and it still works, it's basically working by accident.
> And if types change, and it still works, it's basically working by accident.
So the Liskov substitution principle now passes off as "working by accident"?
So the Liskov substitution principle now passes off as "working by accident"?
That’s a pretty underspecified comment for a static typing enthusiast. You’re referring to polymorphism.
And to be completely clear: you can have safe polymorphism without type hierarchies via things like type inference.
And to be completely clear: you can have safe polymorphism without type hierarchies via things like type inference.
If types change, it doesn't compile and I can't do a release in CI.
I don't consider that working.
I don't consider that working.
I'm agreeing with you here. If you use plain JS and change the underlying types that are being passed around, but things are still working, you're basically getting lucky.
Ok, got it. Apologies.
If you write comprehensive unit tests for your javascript, that should effectively also work too... this is what ruby developers pretty much had to do.
We can see that over time based on the decline of ruby popularity in general, that fell out of style though. It is too easy to make a mistake and everyone was just duplicating what a compiler does for us.
I can't tell you how many hours I would sit there pair programming with other ruby developers just trying to figure out what 'type' an object is. Mind boggling, but it was good to get those high paid consulting hours.
If you write comprehensive unit tests for your javascript, that should effectively also work too... this is what ruby developers pretty much had to do.
We can see that over time based on the decline of ruby popularity in general, that fell out of style though. It is too easy to make a mistake and everyone was just duplicating what a compiler does for us.
I can't tell you how many hours I would sit there pair programming with other ruby developers just trying to figure out what 'type' an object is. Mind boggling, but it was good to get those high paid consulting hours.
Maybe you missed the point here.
"Lean how to use my types!"
Any given project uses a large number of libraries.
The point of a library is that it's 'useful'.
When a large number of libraries use vague and differing typings, it becomes impossible to manage.
The fragmentation created by the agile nature of Typescript is, predictably, a giant problem.
"Lean how to use my types!"
Any given project uses a large number of libraries.
The point of a library is that it's 'useful'.
When a large number of libraries use vague and differing typings, it becomes impossible to manage.
The fragmentation created by the agile nature of Typescript is, predictably, a giant problem.
Anyone can write bad software with terrible APIs. That isn't the problem of the language and certainly doesn't make it 'terrible for library developers'.
My point is that I've written a library that gets a lot of use. It has decent enough APIs. Nobody is writing blog posts like this about my stuff.
My point is that I've written a library that gets a lot of use. It has decent enough APIs. Nobody is writing blog posts like this about my stuff.
What package do you publish? https://github.com/lookfirst/mui-rff?
Do you get paid for any of this?
Not directly. I've been developing open source for almost 30 years now (I co-founded Apache Java/Jakarta). I consider that the experience gained from developing extra curricular projects pays for itself in other ways. For example, I've never had to interview or even look for a job and I've never been laid off.
I really wish I could work in OSS more. Have contributed to several libraries intermittently. How do you find time to do both OSS work and your day job? does your employer allow your OSS contributions to count as work there? I wish I could find the key to that balance.
Whenever I find those guys on Github with several maintained multi-thousand star projects, I wonder "how do they do it?" (fund themselves + work on OSS). I am always curious about the underlying life stuff
Thanks in advance!
Whenever I find those guys on Github with several maintained multi-thousand star projects, I wonder "how do they do it?" (fund themselves + work on OSS). I am always curious about the underlying life stuff
Thanks in advance!
The way that I look at it is that the vast majority of developers depend on some open source project. This means that we find bugs or missing features in other peoples code in our day to day coding. That's a perfect excuse to contribute upstream. If your company has legal policies against that, then honestly... there are other jobs out there. I know that sounds kind of blunt, but I've always made it clear to my employers before I start, that I'm going to contribute to the greater good as part of my work.
In this case, I needed the code for an internal project and decided that the company would benefit the most from making it a library and getting outside help on it. It was an itch that I knew many other people needed scratched because there was a competing project that had gone silent and was incomplete/poor quality. That justified my time spent... I had to write the code either way, might as well make it open.
When I look for people to hire, and I've done a lot of hiring over the years, I primarily look for people like myself who put that extra effort in. Either in their own personal projects or by at least contributing to something upstream. Even just simple documentation changes is something I'd hire over. I fully understand that people have lives outside of work, but honestly... if you're going to be a top developer, you've got to put in a top level of effort, because other people around you are.
In this case, I needed the code for an internal project and decided that the company would benefit the most from making it a library and getting outside help on it. It was an itch that I knew many other people needed scratched because there was a competing project that had gone silent and was incomplete/poor quality. That justified my time spent... I had to write the code either way, might as well make it open.
When I look for people to hire, and I've done a lot of hiring over the years, I primarily look for people like myself who put that extra effort in. Either in their own personal projects or by at least contributing to something upstream. Even just simple documentation changes is something I'd hire over. I fully understand that people have lives outside of work, but honestly... if you're going to be a top developer, you've got to put in a top level of effort, because other people around you are.
> you've got to put in a top level of effort, because other people around you are
In my experience, only about 20% are.
In my experience, only about 20% are.
Invest in yourself and you'll never work a day in your life.
The problem with the premise of the article is that it presupposes that a library’s interfaces will, and ultimately must, be complex. The great thing about TypeScript for library development, if you start with types, is that it strongly encourages you to create simpler and less flexible interfaces. That’s not to say you don’t sometimes need (or won’t sometimes choose) to use some of TypeScript’s more complex features. But a lot of the time you won’t, or should think seriously about whether your interfaces are becoming too complex.
Much of the complexity of TypeScript’s type system is a direct result of excessively dynamic interfaces in existing, untyped JavaScript. Starting with types is a good way to catch that early, rethink the interface, and either isolate it or avoid it entirely.
Much of the complexity of TypeScript’s type system is a direct result of excessively dynamic interfaces in existing, untyped JavaScript. Starting with types is a good way to catch that early, rethink the interface, and either isolate it or avoid it entirely.
I'll agree, and disagree.
I made a similar comment in 2019 about "TS pushes you towards simpler APIs" [0], so I agree that it's both a good thing in principle, and something TS usage leans towards in practice.
At the same time... JS _is_ a very dynamic language, library design reflects that, and library code by its very nature must account for the different ways that users will want to call it. That causes library types to be much more complex than app types.
[0] https://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/2019/11/blogged-answers-le...
I made a similar comment in 2019 about "TS pushes you towards simpler APIs" [0], so I agree that it's both a good thing in principle, and something TS usage leans towards in practice.
At the same time... JS _is_ a very dynamic language, library design reflects that, and library code by its very nature must account for the different ways that users will want to call it. That causes library types to be much more complex than app types.
[0] https://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/2019/11/blogged-answers-le...
Python is also very dynamic, yet libraries rarely allow arguments to be number/string/list/dict/function at the same time.
Yet in JavaScript I see this all the time - pass a string URL, but we also accept a function which will return a string URL, or maybe an option object - { url: string, strict: boolean }
So I think it's more of a culture thing.
Yet in JavaScript I see this all the time - pass a string URL, but we also accept a function which will return a string URL, or maybe an option object - { url: string, strict: boolean }
So I think it's more of a culture thing.
Python libraries kind of used to do this more, but seem to be doing it less now, in part because highly-polymorphic interfaces are a huge ugly pain in the butt with the Python type hinting system.
> Python libraries kind of used to do this more, but seem to be doing it less now…
I’d argue that it has to do with C extensions making it a lot of work to get it right.
Some library code does it (which is where I learned how to do it ‘correctly’) but in general, run of the mill code it is pretty rare. Just something like an overloaded __add__ turns into a page and a half of code and there’s a lot of functions in the numbers protocol struct.
Labor of love really.
I’d argue that it has to do with C extensions making it a lot of work to get it right.
Some library code does it (which is where I learned how to do it ‘correctly’) but in general, run of the mill code it is pretty rare. Just something like an overloaded __add__ turns into a page and a half of code and there’s a lot of functions in the numbers protocol struct.
Labor of love really.
What's so painful about writing
foo: int | strIt gets a lot more complicated than that. One of many, many examples: https://github.com/pandas-dev/pandas-stubs/blob/v1.4.3.22082...
In general, if someone with experience in a domain is complaining that something is hard, it's safe to assume that the thing is actually at least kind of hard, and that they aren't just a crybaby about indentation and formatting.
In general, if someone with experience in a domain is complaining that something is hard, it's safe to assume that the thing is actually at least kind of hard, and that they aren't just a crybaby about indentation and formatting.
I don't see what's complicated about this example. It adds overloads, but those aren't hard, either.
Fair, it's not "hard". But I stand by my assertion that it's a huge ugly pain in the butt. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing, but that doesn't make it less huge, ugly, or painful.
I also assert that if NDFrame.loc were less polymorphic (e.g. if you had a separate accessor like NDFrame.mask for boolean subsetting) it would be easier to use, easier to reason about, easier to teach, easier to document, and easier to write type hints for.
The worst situation is when you want to have multiple return types depending on the argument values, like Pandas' inplace=True. Putting aside the problem of dependent types, even supporting only literal True and False requires you to write out every single overload twice, creating a literal combinatorial explosion of overloads.
And that's also ignoring the whole world of parametric polymorphism required for higher-order functions, factory functions etc.
Maybe the situation is no better in something like C++, but I don't know enough C++ to have an opinion on it.
I also assert that if NDFrame.loc were less polymorphic (e.g. if you had a separate accessor like NDFrame.mask for boolean subsetting) it would be easier to use, easier to reason about, easier to teach, easier to document, and easier to write type hints for.
The worst situation is when you want to have multiple return types depending on the argument values, like Pandas' inplace=True. Putting aside the problem of dependent types, even supporting only literal True and False requires you to write out every single overload twice, creating a literal combinatorial explosion of overloads.
And that's also ignoring the whole world of parametric polymorphism required for higher-order functions, factory functions etc.
Maybe the situation is no better in something like C++, but I don't know enough C++ to have an opinion on it.
To be fair, there are few things as here-be-dragons as the guts of Pandas. It'd be hard to find a more rarified example, but it served to further the conversation at least.
Luckily these types are not complex at all to type in Typescript. You just enumerate all the options with a | character separating them.
Right, but people compose. They take this union and put it in another object, which also allows multiple types for some field, and then they take that object and put it in another one, and then you have a 10 line type declaration for 3 fields.
Which is why you can have aliases for those types, each level of abstraction can be nicely wrapped up. It just describes the reality.
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I’m mostly sitting this out, but I’ll interject here because this is wrong. Union types are often used as an XOR (a | b as “either a or b, but not both”), but they’re an inclusive OR (Partial<a> & Partial<b>, as “some parts of a or b, the parts they share guaranteed”) which is almost never what anyone wants when dealing with objects. The pain is that you can’t distinguish them without a narrowing factor, and if you can’t the types are horridly complex.
I mean, that makes sense. If types `A` and `B` both have a function `doStuff`, is it bad to be able to do `x.doStuff()` without narrowing?
For example: every object’s prototype chain ends with `Object.prototype`, so all objects have a `toString` function. I shouldn’t be forced to narrow my `number|bigint|string` (for example) just to do `x.toString()`. If I was, we’d get this ugly and bloated mess:
For example: every object’s prototype chain ends with `Object.prototype`, so all objects have a `toString` function. I shouldn’t be forced to narrow my `number|bigint|string` (for example) just to do `x.toString()`. If I was, we’d get this ugly and bloated mess:
function callToString(x: number | bigint | string)
{
if (typeof x === "number")
x.toString();
else if (typeof x === "bigint")
x.toString();
else
x.toString();
}
"JS _is_ a very dynamic language, library design reflects that"
I would argue it should not. If your API cannot be well expressed in the Typescript type system, it is your API that should change.
I would argue it should not. If your API cannot be well expressed in the Typescript type system, it is your API that should change.
I'd rather not warp my whole project around a typing system if I don't need to. I also might not be the owner of every API I need to consume...
I think TS is great in certain cases- I love being able to get intellisense info from TS. When I download a new library and I get those helpful hints built right in from the libraries TS adoption, I love it. Typescript in this instance is reducing friction in my development workflow.
In my day job I work at an agency where we rapidly deliver a lot of new web properties. I have used Typescript on projects when it was a client requirement, but in our environment using Typescript generally feels like it overall adds friction and time to the project. Some team member inevitably gets stuck spending a bunch of extra time working with TS stuff: setting up the project with proper rules, writing some complex interface to deal with some random API we are either consuming or creating ourselves (in which case it is usually under rapid prototype development and needs to be updated constantly), etc.
I'm sure it is very helpful when working at scale with tons of developers on a highly stable and established project, but in my opinion it isn't generally applicable to every web property that it would be better on Typescript; it really depends on the scale of the project and the scale of the team maintaining it.
I think TS is great in certain cases- I love being able to get intellisense info from TS. When I download a new library and I get those helpful hints built right in from the libraries TS adoption, I love it. Typescript in this instance is reducing friction in my development workflow.
In my day job I work at an agency where we rapidly deliver a lot of new web properties. I have used Typescript on projects when it was a client requirement, but in our environment using Typescript generally feels like it overall adds friction and time to the project. Some team member inevitably gets stuck spending a bunch of extra time working with TS stuff: setting up the project with proper rules, writing some complex interface to deal with some random API we are either consuming or creating ourselves (in which case it is usually under rapid prototype development and needs to be updated constantly), etc.
I'm sure it is very helpful when working at scale with tons of developers on a highly stable and established project, but in my opinion it isn't generally applicable to every web property that it would be better on Typescript; it really depends on the scale of the project and the scale of the team maintaining it.
> I'd rather not warp my whole project around a typing system if I don't need to.
This sounds to me like MongoDB advocates like "psh! who needs a schema! don't slow me down, I'll just dump JSON into the database however I like." The types exist whether you write them down or not.
I agree with you that TS might not be great for everyone and every use case. But maybe you should just use `any` some more!
This sounds to me like MongoDB advocates like "psh! who needs a schema! don't slow me down, I'll just dump JSON into the database however I like." The types exist whether you write them down or not.
I agree with you that TS might not be great for everyone and every use case. But maybe you should just use `any` some more!
Every field in a MongoDB document (we encoded documents in BSON at the driver level) is typed and you can apply a schema to any collection if you choose to do so.
Yup.
Especially since types are documentation. If you are using some meta dynamic type garbage, then I as a user of the API am left to wonder "Ok, this takes <U, K extends keyof U>... WTF is it expecting?"
This isn't to say that sort of thing is ALWAYS wrong, but rather it should be the exception and not the rule.
You do types because constraints make code clearer. By having a BF compiler in the middle of your template definition, you've defeated the types and you might as well put an `any` there with docs that say "here there be dragons!"
Especially since types are documentation. If you are using some meta dynamic type garbage, then I as a user of the API am left to wonder "Ok, this takes <U, K extends keyof U>... WTF is it expecting?"
This isn't to say that sort of thing is ALWAYS wrong, but rather it should be the exception and not the rule.
You do types because constraints make code clearer. By having a BF compiler in the middle of your template definition, you've defeated the types and you might as well put an `any` there with docs that say "here there be dragons!"
This is all well and good until you have to deal with other code and other APIs in your library (results from network requests, localstorage, untyped javascript libraries, etc.)
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I think allowing people to call functions in a vast variety of ways is a mistake. It's one of the things that frustrates me the most about the javascript ecosystem, it's hard to figure out the call signature for any given function because there's like 15 different ways to call it. I'd argue it's better to just have one well documented way. It's not even like there aren't patterns for it, ie passing an "options" object or something like that (although even then I think that can be an antipattern unless there truly needs to be a variety of options -- ie a db connection or something. Better just to have multiple functions with specific purposes instead of one mega function that does everything)
Agree, 100%. Make your function definition `foo(foo: Foo)` not `foo<T extends comparable | int | Bar>(foo: T)` Flexibility is the enemy of a type system and library design in general.
I don't think allowing users to call libraries in all manner of crazy ways is a good thing at all, and I don't think anyone would really be that put out by following a more pythonic approach of just allowing one way to do something.
Yeah but you're writing libraries in Javascript, that ship has sailed already. You're gonna just need a bit fat switch statement to check your input types on every public function you ever write.
> JS _is_ a very dynamic language, library design reflects that
This is mostly an issue if you're tacking on those types on top of your existing design, rather than starting your design from your types, no?
This is mostly an issue if you're tacking on those types on top of your existing design, rather than starting your design from your types, no?
Case in point, over the weekend I tried creating an npm package for a custom hook. Since it's public-facing, I wanted to use TS so I could expose types for users.
Part of this hook is that users can pass in custom data. I tried to create a type that was basically "an object of any string key, with the type value". Gave up after like an hour of banging my head against my desk. Maybe I'm new to TS, but FFS it should not be that hard to do.
Part of this hook is that users can pass in custom data. I tried to create a type that was basically "an object of any string key, with the type value". Gave up after like an hour of banging my head against my desk. Maybe I'm new to TS, but FFS it should not be that hard to do.
Fortunately that's not too difficult:
let x: {[key: string]: Type}
For the record, this is equivalent to:
let x: Record<string, Type>
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We were trying to add types to some of our code. And the types were getting ridiculously convoluted. And at that point it was like - maybe it's not the types that are the problem, maybe it's the interface that needs to be rewritten.
The OP's example of createActions smells like such a scenario. The way redux mashes up payloads and discriminators makes it hard to type correctly - as in objects are not simply composed, they're extended by adding properties, and for no immediately obvious reason (which might be because of my inexperience, granted).
Had redux been developed in typescript from the start, I doubt it would have chosen this API. Then again, the current version is already in typescript, so perhaps that optimism is unwarranted; unfortunately my experience with it is years ago already.
Had redux been developed in typescript from the start, I doubt it would have chosen this API. Then again, the current version is already in typescript, so perhaps that optimism is unwarranted; unfortunately my experience with it is years ago already.
This particular use case is trying to strongly type the "Flux Standard Action" object shape. An object _may_ have a `payload` field for its data, _may_ have an `error` field that indicates this action represents an error, and _may_ have a `meta` field that provides additional descriptive information.
This isn't part of the Redux core package, but it's a convention the community adopted shortly after Redux became popular. Redux Toolkit uses that as the standard structure for an action object. `createAction` defaults to just `{type, payload}`, but you can optionally provide a callback that adds the other `meta` and `error` fields. So yes, there's some additional complexity here because of the optional field contents, and this type is telling TS what the final type should look like based on which fields exist.
Note that as an end user, you normally don't even call `createAction` yourself - it's automatically called as part of our `createSlice` API. What end users normally write is:
This isn't part of the Redux core package, but it's a convention the community adopted shortly after Redux became popular. Redux Toolkit uses that as the standard structure for an action object. `createAction` defaults to just `{type, payload}`, but you can optionally provide a callback that adds the other `meta` and `error` fields. So yes, there's some additional complexity here because of the optional field contents, and this type is telling TS what the final type should look like based on which fields exist.
Note that as an end user, you normally don't even call `createAction` yourself - it's automatically called as part of our `createSlice` API. What end users normally write is:
export const counterSlice = createSlice({
name: 'counter',
// `createSlice` will infer the state type from the `initialState` argument
initialState,
reducers: {
increment: state => {
state.value += 1
},
// Use the PayloadAction type to declare the contents of `action.payload`
incrementByAmount: (state, action: PayloadAction<number>) => {
// `action.payload` is now a `number`
state.value += action.payload
}
}
})Care to share more details about code smell patterns you noticed?
It was bad the first few years, with existing code being hard to type because it was creatively written. But now that almost everything is somewhat typed, JS has converged to a way of writing code, and you should consider the tradeoffs before choosing a different path than the current norm.
I really _wish_ this were true, but go look at a vareity of "modern" React projects. React is so flexible that I've seen nightmare implementations of what could be reduced to just a few short lines. Then people turn around and blame React as a 'garbage framework'. Then if you talk about a much more verbose and strict framework like Angular, people turn around and complain "I can't do what I want with this overly opinionated framework!"
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
However, if you look behind the curtains of these infamous gripes (some of them so often repeated they are cliché), 99% of the time its people who just haven't spent enough time around a certain framework or language and go create a rant post (similar to OPs post)
You're free to love the tools and languages you use all the time. But it's bad practice to go around bad mouthing tools and frameworks you don't full understand or haven't used productively.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
However, if you look behind the curtains of these infamous gripes (some of them so often repeated they are cliché), 99% of the time its people who just haven't spent enough time around a certain framework or language and go create a rant post (similar to OPs post)
You're free to love the tools and languages you use all the time. But it's bad practice to go around bad mouthing tools and frameworks you don't full understand or haven't used productively.
It also was missing a lot of crucial features early on, which made typing certain things impossible. Even now there's a few things that are a PITA to type, but as you say those edge cases can be largely avoided.
Agree 100%. Redux et al are terrible examples where complexity is through the roof, these libraries were written way before TypeScript was the norm. You can eliminate almost all of that by having simpler interfaces, but that requires a different API built with types in mind.
I agree, and it’s the same with Python. If you start with static, type-safe first, then Python’s flexibility ends up being so horribly convoluted that you avoid it in favor of simpler constructs. **kwargs? Massive union types? Super flexible dicts? Rather not!
I’ll define 50 strongly typed constructs over having to run my code through 50 times to catch all the runtime bugs.
I’ll define 50 strongly typed constructs over having to run my code through 50 times to catch all the runtime bugs.
I have found *kwargs useful for wrapper functions, where you pass kwargs to some other, later defined, function.
Agreed! From the article:
How do library developers debug their highly dynamic and heavy use of conditional types, overloads?
Don’t do that. It dramatically increases compile time and results in a maintenance nightmare. Keep types primitive.
In my own code I use type unions of primitives and/or named types. For objects I use interfaces. With that I am able to provides types for about 98% of my code. That left over 2% is generally for extending the global Array type or extending an event.
How do library developers debug their highly dynamic and heavy use of conditional types, overloads?
Don’t do that. It dramatically increases compile time and results in a maintenance nightmare. Keep types primitive.
In my own code I use type unions of primitives and/or named types. For objects I use interfaces. With that I am able to provides types for about 98% of my code. That left over 2% is generally for extending the global Array type or extending an event.
Yeah, Redux Saga is known for heavily using JS generators and I wonder how much of this is just the relative obscurity of that language feature for him. It's not exactly a straightforward library.
Here's a perfect example. I maintain a simple Node library designed to connect to Apple's App Store Connect API. https://github.com/dfabulich/node-app-store-connect-api
It accepts, as a parameter, a URL for Apple's REST API. My library handles authentication, and returns the parsed JSON result, with a handful of tweaks to make the API more usable in JavaScript.
Depending on which URL you request, you'll get different result object back. You could get a single object in response, or an array of objects, and the type of returned objects is different for each URL type.
How would you add TypeScript types to this API? Well, Apple provides an OpenAPI documentation of all of their URLs, which I could use to autogenerate types, but then, how would I handle all of those types in response to the user's string input?
Well, it turns out that TypeScript is so amazingly fancy that you can write very clever code to parse strings at compile time, extracting parameter types etc. from string literal types. https://lihautan.com/extract-parameters-type-from-string-lit...
The documentation explains how an API like this:
But the code to do that looks like this:
Clearly, I wouldn't do that. Instead, I'd write a script to autogenerate individual methods, e.g. instead of get(`apps/${appId}`) that returns a parsed JSON blob, I'd autogenerate a getApp(appId) method that returns an App object.
But that API isn't any simpler than the API I already have; it's just different.
And let's not forget that I'd have to write a script to autogenerate these methods (or just their types) based on Apple's OpenAPI specification, and now I have to maintain that code, updating my @types/node-app-store-connect-api definition every time Apple introduces a new URL you can request. Testing and debugging that is a challenge in its own right.
And even if I did it, the complexity of my library just went from a few hundred lines of glue code to 1,000+ lines of type generation (plus tests for the generated types).
This is in no way worth it for me. As a library developer, adding TypeScript types would make my life harder.
It accepts, as a parameter, a URL for Apple's REST API. My library handles authentication, and returns the parsed JSON result, with a handful of tweaks to make the API more usable in JavaScript.
Depending on which URL you request, you'll get different result object back. You could get a single object in response, or an array of objects, and the type of returned objects is different for each URL type.
How would you add TypeScript types to this API? Well, Apple provides an OpenAPI documentation of all of their URLs, which I could use to autogenerate types, but then, how would I handle all of those types in response to the user's string input?
Well, it turns out that TypeScript is so amazingly fancy that you can write very clever code to parse strings at compile time, extracting parameter types etc. from string literal types. https://lihautan.com/extract-parameters-type-from-string-lit...
The documentation explains how an API like this:
app.get('/purchase/[shopid]/[itemid]/args/[...args]')
But the code to do that looks like this:
type IsParameter<Part> = Part extends `[${infer ParamName}]` ? ParamName : never;
type FilteredParts<Path> = Path extends `${infer PartA}/${infer PartB}`
? IsParameter<PartA> | FilteredParts<PartB>
: IsParameter<Path>;
type ParamValue<Key> = Key extends `...${infer Anything}` ? string[] : number;
type RemovePrefixDots<Key> = Key extends `...${infer Name}` ? Name : Key;
type Params<Path> = {
[Key in FilteredParts<Path> as RemovePrefixDots<Key>]: ParamValue<Key>;
};
type CallbackFn<Path> = (req: { params: Params<Path> }) => void;
function get<Path extends string>(path: Path, callback: CallbackFn<Path>) {
// TODO: implement
}
Clearly, I wouldn't do that. Instead, I'd write a script to autogenerate individual methods, e.g. instead of get(`apps/${appId}`) that returns a parsed JSON blob, I'd autogenerate a getApp(appId) method that returns an App object.
But that API isn't any simpler than the API I already have; it's just different.
And let's not forget that I'd have to write a script to autogenerate these methods (or just their types) based on Apple's OpenAPI specification, and now I have to maintain that code, updating my @types/node-app-store-connect-api definition every time Apple introduces a new URL you can request. Testing and debugging that is a challenge in its own right.
And even if I did it, the complexity of my library just went from a few hundred lines of glue code to 1,000+ lines of type generation (plus tests for the generated types).
This is in no way worth it for me. As a library developer, adding TypeScript types would make my life harder.
> And even if I did it, the complexity of my library just went from a few hundred lines of glue code to 1,000+ lines of type generation (plus tests for the generated types).
I would say that the increased complexity of your project would accurately reflect the complexity of the underlying API
> As a library developer, adding TypeScript types would make my life harder.
Yes, but it would mean that the various parameters passed to your library would now be type safe, which sounds worth the work
I would say that the increased complexity of your project would accurately reflect the complexity of the underlying API
> As a library developer, adding TypeScript types would make my life harder.
Yes, but it would mean that the various parameters passed to your library would now be type safe, which sounds worth the work
One clear moral of this story is that, as a library developer, I need a lot more documentation and tooling support from the TypeScript team.
That string-parsing thing isn't in TypeScript's documentation at all; it's a random blog post. I'm lucky I found it. TypeScript's site should document how to do this.
Furthermore, it should be easier to debug parsed stringly-typed APIs using the `infer` keyword. Today, I just run the compiler over and over again until it stops throwing errors, and the errors are really not very helpful.
There should be a standard tool to help me test that I used `infer` correctly, ideally helping me by fuzzing the code to see if I allowed something I shouldn't have allowed, or blocked something that I should have allowed, and to test against various versions of TypeScript.
Narrowing types shouldn't be done just by nesting ternary expressions. As the article notes, "It's pretty common in style guides to never nest ternaries. In typescript, that's the only way to narrow types based on other types. It's a mess!"
Lastly, this idea doesn't sit right with me:
> I would say that the increased complexity of your project would accurately reflect the complexity of the underlying API
I designed my library so it doesn't need to incorporate that complexity. Users of my API have to learn the API, but they can learn it from Apple, by reading Apple's documentation, and by inspecting the objects that Apple actually returns (rather than what their OpenAPI specification says they'll return).
Incorporating that complexity into my library will make my library harder to work with, more difficult for others to contribute to my library. As the article says, "Types make it much harder to maintain a js library, and especially difficult to contribute to them."
TypeScript is forcing me to duplicate the API's complexity in my code. Even if you think that "sounds worth the work," I think you have to agree that the work load is much higher than the work I've already done.
That string-parsing thing isn't in TypeScript's documentation at all; it's a random blog post. I'm lucky I found it. TypeScript's site should document how to do this.
Furthermore, it should be easier to debug parsed stringly-typed APIs using the `infer` keyword. Today, I just run the compiler over and over again until it stops throwing errors, and the errors are really not very helpful.
There should be a standard tool to help me test that I used `infer` correctly, ideally helping me by fuzzing the code to see if I allowed something I shouldn't have allowed, or blocked something that I should have allowed, and to test against various versions of TypeScript.
Narrowing types shouldn't be done just by nesting ternary expressions. As the article notes, "It's pretty common in style guides to never nest ternaries. In typescript, that's the only way to narrow types based on other types. It's a mess!"
Lastly, this idea doesn't sit right with me:
> I would say that the increased complexity of your project would accurately reflect the complexity of the underlying API
I designed my library so it doesn't need to incorporate that complexity. Users of my API have to learn the API, but they can learn it from Apple, by reading Apple's documentation, and by inspecting the objects that Apple actually returns (rather than what their OpenAPI specification says they'll return).
Incorporating that complexity into my library will make my library harder to work with, more difficult for others to contribute to my library. As the article says, "Types make it much harder to maintain a js library, and especially difficult to contribute to them."
TypeScript is forcing me to duplicate the API's complexity in my code. Even if you think that "sounds worth the work," I think you have to agree that the work load is much higher than the work I've already done.
> Furthermore, it should be easier to debug parsed stringly-typed APIs using the `infer` keyword. Today, I just run the compiler over and over again until it stops throwing errors, and the errors are really not very helpful.
This paragraph kind of sums up both the OP and this whole HN discussion of it. So I'll throw my comment on here, although I suppose it could go pretty much anywhere.
Anyway, one way to read it all is: This just goes to show that
1) JavaScript sucks;
2) Therefore the whole world of "Web apps" built on it is an unmaintainable buggy nightmare;
3) Trying to graft "strong" (not really) typing on top of it in the shape of TypeScript is just polishing a turd.
It's like somewhere around 1995/2000 the world of computing jumped through a time warp back to 1975, and we've been stuck there, in a world dominated by the new BASIC, ever since.
___
Edit: Typo fix, *"domination" --> "dominated".
This paragraph kind of sums up both the OP and this whole HN discussion of it. So I'll throw my comment on here, although I suppose it could go pretty much anywhere.
Anyway, one way to read it all is: This just goes to show that
1) JavaScript sucks;
2) Therefore the whole world of "Web apps" built on it is an unmaintainable buggy nightmare;
3) Trying to graft "strong" (not really) typing on top of it in the shape of TypeScript is just polishing a turd.
It's like somewhere around 1995/2000 the world of computing jumped through a time warp back to 1975, and we've been stuck there, in a world dominated by the new BASIC, ever since.
___
Edit: Typo fix, *"domination" --> "dominated".
> Depending on which URL you request, you'll get different result object back.
This sounds awful to me. Why wouldn't it be separate functions? I absolutely would not want that at all as an end user, I'd find it confusing and frustrating.
This sounds awful to me. Why wouldn't it be separate functions? I absolutely would not want that at all as an end user, I'd find it confusing and frustrating.
Because in order to have separate functions, I'd have to define separate functions for every function that Apple supports, i.e. I'd have to autogenerate the list from Apple's OpenAPI specification.
Furthermore, if Apple introduces a new function, I'd have to release a new version of my library to support it. Today, my library can handle any object Apple's API supports, without upgrading.
As it stands, the API works like this. It's fine.
Furthermore, if Apple introduces a new function, I'd have to release a new version of my library to support it. Today, my library can handle any object Apple's API supports, without upgrading.
As it stands, the API works like this. It's fine.
const {data: app} = await read('apps/123456')
const {data: apps} = await read('apps')
const {data: [firstApp]} = await read('apps?limit=1')Swagger can generate that sort of thing. I guess I don't know what things your library provides so I don't want to bash it, but having a generic read/get that doesn't provide types doesn't seem like a big improvement over just using a general purpose tool like axios or fetch.
The App Store Connect API requires scoped, time-limited tokens to be generated and has specific filtering, pagination, and rate-limiting mechanisms built into every resource. I haven’t looked at this particular library, but I would expect that it’s quite useful beyond simply making the HTTP requests.
I think it’s great that you publish and maintain this library and nobody can or should tell you to put more work into it. That said a package that did have explicit methods for every endpoint with documentation of what it does and what the parameters are would be awesome for me as a user. The docs will pop up when I write the code and make it easy to explore the different methods from my editor. No need to switch to the apple docs all the time (but probably still sometimes). And again I still think your library can stay as it is. I really don’t think this string parsing magic is the way to go. It can be useful in some simple cases, but specifying a whole API goes to far imho.
Typescript is bad for library developers who have produced bad[0] APIs and don't want[1] to refactor them.
Overloads exist in Typescript because as a language it needs to support what javascript supports - regardless of whether the pattern is "good". Overloads are heavily used in DefinitelyTyped because contributors there haven't had the luxury of designing the APIs they're typing. If you're designing your own API, you shouldn't be heavily using overloads because typed languages don't encourage the ridiculous trend of movable arguments that jQuery pioneered in the JS world.
Similarly, if you're writing all of your own code you shouldn't need type manipulation because you shouldn't be leaning heavily on variable mutation. Dogmatic stances on immutability are reasonably a matter of debate, but it's fairly uncontroversial to state that minimising mutation in your data flows helps prevent your code becoming an unmaintainable mess.
Etc.
[0］Writing good APIs is hard - bad APIs are inevitable. Typed languages make refactoring faster.
[1] Refactoring untyped languages is very hard and the tendency not to is deeply ingrained and very natural/reasonable.
Overloads exist in Typescript because as a language it needs to support what javascript supports - regardless of whether the pattern is "good". Overloads are heavily used in DefinitelyTyped because contributors there haven't had the luxury of designing the APIs they're typing. If you're designing your own API, you shouldn't be heavily using overloads because typed languages don't encourage the ridiculous trend of movable arguments that jQuery pioneered in the JS world.
Similarly, if you're writing all of your own code you shouldn't need type manipulation because you shouldn't be leaning heavily on variable mutation. Dogmatic stances on immutability are reasonably a matter of debate, but it's fairly uncontroversial to state that minimising mutation in your data flows helps prevent your code becoming an unmaintainable mess.
Etc.
[0］Writing good APIs is hard - bad APIs are inevitable. Typed languages make refactoring faster.
[1] Refactoring untyped languages is very hard and the tendency not to is deeply ingrained and very natural/reasonable.
This, 100%. In this very comment section there are a bunch of people saying "I maintain <API with crazy unnecessary complexity in it> and I can't figure out how to translate it to TS". Well yeah, that API sucks, make a simple one instead.
I much rather blame the type system designers, however heroic and brilliant they may be, than the folks using them. Especially so in scenarios like large & collaborative evolving code bases, legacy, module composition, evolving tools, etc.
That some API doesn't conform to the abysmal ergonomics and astounding stupidity of most type systems isn't a problem with the API, but an endemic problem of modern type systems being dumb, weak, and hard-to-use. To an embarrassing extent, even most "advanced" type systems aren't super far from what came out of the 1970s. After writing ML-typed code for years, you learn the disappointingly primitive level of reasoning most textbook solvers can handle, and warp your code style ahead of time to that. Simpler calling conventions, all sorts of hints to inferencers, hacks around IO, etc. Language implementors know these systems have major issues in practice and thus tack layer after layer of weird special forms to handle what is "natural" in modern code. And then you get junior developers on a team, and have to pretend that this is all good and then hope they don't quit when they get byzantine type errors. And not tear your hair out when some library updates around these changes.
In a world where you can write 10 words of English and get synthesized a unique photorealistic image, or can sketch some code and get it autocompleted, maybe the problem is most type systems (still) suck. It's not inherent because we can manually reason about code & even run it -- and shifts to previously sacrilegious research like plugging in SMT solvers and neural networks has been changing historically conservative fundamental assumptions at a snails pace -- but that's where we are. So again, I wouldn't categorically blame the poor developers subjected to embarrassingly dumb solvers & UX's.
That some API doesn't conform to the abysmal ergonomics and astounding stupidity of most type systems isn't a problem with the API, but an endemic problem of modern type systems being dumb, weak, and hard-to-use. To an embarrassing extent, even most "advanced" type systems aren't super far from what came out of the 1970s. After writing ML-typed code for years, you learn the disappointingly primitive level of reasoning most textbook solvers can handle, and warp your code style ahead of time to that. Simpler calling conventions, all sorts of hints to inferencers, hacks around IO, etc. Language implementors know these systems have major issues in practice and thus tack layer after layer of weird special forms to handle what is "natural" in modern code. And then you get junior developers on a team, and have to pretend that this is all good and then hope they don't quit when they get byzantine type errors. And not tear your hair out when some library updates around these changes.
In a world where you can write 10 words of English and get synthesized a unique photorealistic image, or can sketch some code and get it autocompleted, maybe the problem is most type systems (still) suck. It's not inherent because we can manually reason about code & even run it -- and shifts to previously sacrilegious research like plugging in SMT solvers and neural networks has been changing historically conservative fundamental assumptions at a snails pace -- but that's where we are. So again, I wouldn't categorically blame the poor developers subjected to embarrassingly dumb solvers & UX's.
You’re probably right but much of that is the consequence of having the baggage of using JS and the legacy of popular libraries that will get mashed through typescript with heavy influence on its spec.
TS (probably) didnt have the luxury of thinking it out the necessary constraints and foundations for a top tier type system. Of course there were some bad choices like the XOR Union stuff mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but all of those make sense when you consider the type of code typically written in JS (before TS).
Typescript was probably never going to become popular if it tried to reach that ideal. But it provides way more safety bumpers for junior devs than JS previously had so regardless it’s a major step forward than whatever custom creation we used to hand each dev.
TS (probably) didnt have the luxury of thinking it out the necessary constraints and foundations for a top tier type system. Of course there were some bad choices like the XOR Union stuff mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but all of those make sense when you consider the type of code typically written in JS (before TS).
Typescript was probably never going to become popular if it tried to reach that ideal. But it provides way more safety bumpers for junior devs than JS previously had so regardless it’s a major step forward than whatever custom creation we used to hand each dev.
Shortly after I joined my current team, I was confounded by how a type (here named Thing) was used and I sought to catalogue it for future reference. I defined the type Thing as best as I could understand its usage throughout the software. My direct supervisor very correctly questioned my effort: “surely that is not what Thing is?” I agreed, and yet, that’s exactly what Thing is. In real usage. The type system can express quite a lot more than “Thing is all possible data merged together and even naming keys depends on where you look”, but the type system can’t lie and tell you thing are or are not contrary to facts. It isn’t the type system’s fault that all things are part of Thing, or that no thing about Thing is knowable. It’s something the type system might have helped, if anyone consulted the type system. Instead we have Thing.
If you can't explain to the type system what you mean, what makes you think you can explain to your co-worker what you mean?
That's like asking "If you can't explain to a three-year-old what you mean, what makes you think you can explain to your coworker what you mean?". The entire point of the parent comment is that almost all type systems in wide use today are extremely dumb compared to an actual human.
> almost all type systems in wide use today are extremely dumb compared to an actual human
This isn't really true in the specific sense though (obviously it's inherently true in the general sense, but that's less relevant here).
Type systems are true & accurate representations of data structure and usage - any given actual human (a) may have an inaccurate mental representation of that at any given time, (b) that mental representation may change over time, (c) that mental representation will almost always be incomplete for any reasonably complex system.
Being "dumb" or intelligent isn't about representing data structures in memory, but the particular problem being discussed here is very much about that: in that context, humans are usually "dumber" than type systems.
This isn't really true in the specific sense though (obviously it's inherently true in the general sense, but that's less relevant here).
Type systems are true & accurate representations of data structure and usage - any given actual human (a) may have an inaccurate mental representation of that at any given time, (b) that mental representation may change over time, (c) that mental representation will almost always be incomplete for any reasonably complex system.
Being "dumb" or intelligent isn't about representing data structures in memory, but the particular problem being discussed here is very much about that: in that context, humans are usually "dumber" than type systems.
I'm using "dumb" to refer to computationally limited reasoning for even small programs.
Think linear regression vs neural networks, or in this case, ML-family type systems (with all the modern trimmings) vs an SMT solver. The "explaining your code to a three year old vs a professional colleague" comment is spot on.
Think linear regression vs neural networks, or in this case, ML-family type systems (with all the modern trimmings) vs an SMT solver. The "explaining your code to a three year old vs a professional colleague" comment is spot on.
I've used and debugged type issues in Redux, but even when we figured out what was going on I was often left with the feeling that it was trying to be too clever. In the same way that we should strive towards simpler and easier to understand code, we should do the same with the types we use. Wanting ways of doing even more complex types using ever more complex type systems, seems like the wrong direction. IMHO, much of that complexity is due to what we desire, not weaknesses in the type systems themselves.
> I much rather blame the type system designers
Your comment may (or may not) be a reasonable criticism of designed-from-scratch languages, I don't really know for sure, but either way none of it applies whatsoever to Typescript.
Typescript is by definition an imperfect and over-complicated typed system because they have set themselves the task of levering typings onto a mature (i.e. "has legacy issues") language that was never designed with the intent of being typed.
It's even "worse" than similar cases like PHP, where after many versions the core devs have begun slowly implementing weak types on top of the previously-untyped language, because at least they have the luxury of being the core language devs and having the power to deprecate & change APIs if they choose. ECMA have no intent to type JS, nor to do anything explicitly to make life easier for the Typescript project.
Despite all the above, Typescript is brilliant because the unnecessary complexity is not layered, it's feature-based. Best-practice features of JS are easy to type in TS. If you're struggling with complex TS features, you're either writing a DefinitelyTyped package for a pre-existing project, or otherwise it's probably a strong hint that you're doing something wrong.
Your comment may (or may not) be a reasonable criticism of designed-from-scratch languages, I don't really know for sure, but either way none of it applies whatsoever to Typescript.
Typescript is by definition an imperfect and over-complicated typed system because they have set themselves the task of levering typings onto a mature (i.e. "has legacy issues") language that was never designed with the intent of being typed.
It's even "worse" than similar cases like PHP, where after many versions the core devs have begun slowly implementing weak types on top of the previously-untyped language, because at least they have the luxury of being the core language devs and having the power to deprecate & change APIs if they choose. ECMA have no intent to type JS, nor to do anything explicitly to make life easier for the Typescript project.
Despite all the above, Typescript is brilliant because the unnecessary complexity is not layered, it's feature-based. Best-practice features of JS are easy to type in TS. If you're struggling with complex TS features, you're either writing a DefinitelyTyped package for a pre-existing project, or otherwise it's probably a strong hint that you're doing something wrong.
One project I'm particularly thinking of here was around the weakness & stupidity of the type system, and major issues around scaling (federated code evolution), for what was intended to be carefully typed ecosystem code. The JS aspects had very little to do with it.
> You shouldn't need type manipulation because you shouldn't be leaning heavily on variable mutation
What does type manipulation have to do with variable mutation? The main examples in the OP were of redux and related libraries, which use huge amounts of type manipulation but almost no mutation. I'm honestly not sure where the link between these two things would be, because to me they seem completely orthogonal.
What does type manipulation have to do with variable mutation? The main examples in the OP were of redux and related libraries, which use huge amounts of type manipulation but almost no mutation. I'm honestly not sure where the link between these two things would be, because to me they seem completely orthogonal.
"type manipulation" is a broad section in the TS handbook - it even includes very core things like generics. So I admit I did jump the gun on focusing on parts of it that may be more exceptional/messy in their application (& lead to difficult-to-work-with types); like conditional types or assertions.
After diving into the OPs linked examples, it appears that all they mean when they say "type manipulation" is just... generics.
Generics can be as simple or as convoluted as you write them. The linked examples certainly does look over-engineered: if you've got identifiers like `ActionCreatorForCaseReducerWithPrepare` in your library, you're entering into Java managermanager meme level of silliness there. That's not something you can blame Typescript for.
After diving into the OPs linked examples, it appears that all they mean when they say "type manipulation" is just... generics.
Generics can be as simple or as convoluted as you write them. The linked examples certainly does look over-engineered: if you've got identifiers like `ActionCreatorForCaseReducerWithPrepare` in your library, you're entering into Java managermanager meme level of silliness there. That's not something you can blame Typescript for.
I think the author is good with naming symptoms and I think they miss the true culprit. It's not typescript that is causing this pain, no it's the pain of getting correct abstractions laid down in code. It's truly the pain of code design activity. Typescript and library programming is just forcing that pain to the surface instead of hiding it away.
I know this because I struggle against these "pain during code design" & "get abstractions right" forces when I program.
Declaring types is really declaring what domain objects your program cares about and function signatures are really just describing interactions that can happen. So what 'domain objects' should meaningfully exist in my program and how do they interact? A bad abstraction can burn up a lot of time, so make sure you check your abstraction. I typically check mine describing stories to my friends (or rubber duck) and ensuring I'm using plain English and the other person doesn't get lost. YMMV
When you're doing web client programming you're typically using a library to accomplish work, and much of that work is reacting to user input and rendering data. I would argue that because so much of the linguistic heavy lifting has been done for web client programming, practicing the abstraction exercise is done less than in other programming domains. Doesn't mean it couldn't, just trying to highlight a difference in programmer domains. This is why the pain is more apparent in library programming than web client programming.
I imagine that advanced individuals in code design understand more of the connection between math and programming and are capable of describing systems of interesting work in few simple statements. I hope to reach those heights someday.
I know this because I struggle against these "pain during code design" & "get abstractions right" forces when I program.
Declaring types is really declaring what domain objects your program cares about and function signatures are really just describing interactions that can happen. So what 'domain objects' should meaningfully exist in my program and how do they interact? A bad abstraction can burn up a lot of time, so make sure you check your abstraction. I typically check mine describing stories to my friends (or rubber duck) and ensuring I'm using plain English and the other person doesn't get lost. YMMV
When you're doing web client programming you're typically using a library to accomplish work, and much of that work is reacting to user input and rendering data. I would argue that because so much of the linguistic heavy lifting has been done for web client programming, practicing the abstraction exercise is done less than in other programming domains. Doesn't mean it couldn't, just trying to highlight a difference in programmer domains. This is why the pain is more apparent in library programming than web client programming.
I imagine that advanced individuals in code design understand more of the connection between math and programming and are capable of describing systems of interesting work in few simple statements. I hope to reach those heights someday.
I think valid points are bad about typescript being bad, like without a real debugger it's going to be hard to debug anything.
But I firmly disagree with how the article begins.
> In effect, we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers.
That is the whole point in creating a library. To hide complexity in a nice easy to use interface/API.
But I firmly disagree with how the article begins.
> In effect, we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers.
That is the whole point in creating a library. To hide complexity in a nice easy to use interface/API.
Yeah, the author appears to be complaining that Typescript is forcing them to stay honest even while they perform Mad Shenanigans like dynamically constructing types :/ if TS didn't check it, it would be down to your users to report the bugs in production!
I don't think it's very fair. As a library developer myself, you try to make you user lives easier, which implies being flexible in what you accept when possible. A couple of examples I struggled with recently:
Documenting https://umbrellajs.com/documentation#addclass. The way I documented it is by opening with a code snippet with many of the possible options (which can also be combined!):
Then there's a classic initializer in JS that works like this:
Documenting https://umbrellajs.com/documentation#addclass. The way I documented it is by opening with a code snippet with many of the possible options (which can also be combined!):
.addClass('name1')
.addClass('name1 name2 nameN')
.addClass('name1,name2,nameN')
.addClass('name1', 'name2', 'nameN')
.addClass(['name1', 'name2', 'nameN'])
.addClass(['name1', 'name2'], ['name3'], ['nameN'])
.addClass(function(node, i){ return 'name1'; })
.addClass(function(){ return 'name1'; }, function(){ return 'name2'; })
Then there's a classic initializer in JS that works like this:
function myLibrary(arg) {
if (!(this instanceof myLibrary)) {
return new myLibrary(arg);
}
...
}
Yeah I kind of disagree that "being flexible in what you accept when possible" is a benefit to the user. It's just more complexity pushed down to the user that is unnecessary.
In this example, I'm not sure why it's the functions responsibility to support all of these options when the user is perfectly capable of manipulating strings and arrays.
In this example, I'm not sure why it's the functions responsibility to support all of these options when the user is perfectly capable of manipulating strings and arrays.
While I agree with you, I have seen practical cases where sensing an array of items in the get parameter of a web server is handled differently, similarly to what the parent comment mentioned.
You can list variants of a function's signature in typescript, but typescript won't help you much with "stringly typed" things (like `.addClass('name1,name2,nameN')`).
Different languages have a grain like wood does. And that subtly directs you by making some things ergonomic and some things difficult to express. I love typescript, but I definitely find it changes the resulting code.
Typescript makes "jQuery style" javascript much more awkward to write, because its harder to type. This is good and bad. I write less scrappy code in typescript - which I think makes it a worse language for quick prototyping. But the tradeoff is that I think its a better language for larger teams / longer lasting projects where functions are read a lot more than they're written.
The actual typescript answer for your API is "don't make your API look like that". Its not always the answer you're looking for.
Different languages have a grain like wood does. And that subtly directs you by making some things ergonomic and some things difficult to express. I love typescript, but I definitely find it changes the resulting code.
Typescript makes "jQuery style" javascript much more awkward to write, because its harder to type. This is good and bad. I write less scrappy code in typescript - which I think makes it a worse language for quick prototyping. But the tradeoff is that I think its a better language for larger teams / longer lasting projects where functions are read a lot more than they're written.
The actual typescript answer for your API is "don't make your API look like that". Its not always the answer you're looking for.
With "template string literal" types TS has gotten incredible at "stringly typed" APIs (more powerful than just about any other type language in existence in this arena, from what I've seen). People have done incredible things with it and its Turing Complete possibilities (including entire games playable in TS types). With great power comes great responsibility, and just because Typescript can do a lot of it now, doesn't mean that you should do it in Typescript.
Honestly, that's just silly. There's absolutely no reason to accept that many different call styles. Why not just take in an array? As a user I don't find things like this convenient, I find them to be confusing footguns. It's a one liner to split your comma separated string into an array as an end-user, but once you add that complexity to the interface in the library you can never ever take it out.
I thought in the js world it was normal to break compatibility whenever.
declare function addClass(...classes: (string | string[] | (() => string))[]): void;
> This is very useful to create a library like jquery that you can initialize straight away without needing (but also being able to use) the `new` keyword, just calling it like a function and always ensures it returns an instance.
Avoiding having to type "new" is not a very compelling reason to avoid Typescript, especially because Typescript won't let you make the mistake of calling the function without it. It's just not a problem.
That's an order of magnitude less clear in what the function expects than the examples I gave IMHO
Actually, it's not. With the type signature I understand what arguments the function can take. With your examples I have to _infer_ that, and there could be other restrictions that I wouldn't know. Like, can you pass a function and a string? Or do all the arguments have to be functions or not? The type signature tells me right away.
How are literal examples that are strings less clear than saying "string"? How do you know with just "string" the separator method, the format, etc? In my example you have type information AND string format information AND examples, while with TS you'd only have type information
Again, TS does not forbid you from having examples. Your docstrings don't replace Typescript, and Typescript doesn't replace good docstrings. But your docstrings are very unclear on which types you can mix together, and that has to be inferred. And if a user passes in something else by accident, it will fail at runtime rather than warning them the moment they write it.
Who's stopping you from giving examples in a docstring?
You can use recursion and template types to type some pretty complex string values now - I've seen cut down parsers for both SQL and TS written just via TS types which is madness but does show what can be done.
Whether the effort is worth it is, however, a totally different question to whether it's possible.
Whether the effort is worth it is, however, a totally different question to whether it's possible.
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>To this day I haven't found a way of doing this in TS.
Just make a static method that does initialization if needed and returns a new instance?
https://www.typescripttutorial.net/typescript-tutorial/types...
I'm trying to not be too hard on people as I read this thread, but it's baffling to me that web devs are getting filtered by features that have been in other languages since the 80's and 90's.
Just make a static method that does initialization if needed and returns a new instance?
https://www.typescripttutorial.net/typescript-tutorial/types...
I'm trying to not be too hard on people as I read this thread, but it's baffling to me that web devs are getting filtered by features that have been in other languages since the 80's and 90's.
Your problem would be solved pretty easily by making two changes to your API:
* Only accept an array of strings. Not a single string, not several strings, not several arrays of strings, and certainly not a space/comma-separated list of classes.
* Add another single overload where you accept a function that takes two parameters. That function can ignore its parameters if it wants to, and it returns a list of strings, so you don't need to accept several.
You have the same functionality, it's not harder to use for an end-user, and it's infinitely simpler to type.
* Only accept an array of strings. Not a single string, not several strings, not several arrays of strings, and certainly not a space/comma-separated list of classes.
* Add another single overload where you accept a function that takes two parameters. That function can ignore its parameters if it wants to, and it returns a list of strings, so you don't need to accept several.
You have the same functionality, it's not harder to use for an end-user, and it's infinitely simpler to type.
If TypeScript steers authors away from either of these patterns then all the better in my opinion.
I don't design my APIs that way unless the language lets me write each (addClass) version as a separate function 'head'. I.e., Elixir and Haskell.
For the other 99% of programming languages, that kind of interface makes the addClass implementation too complicated and forces unneeded branching into it. Consider: when the app developer is calling addClass, they _know_ which interface variation they're using. So they can easy write e.g. addClasses instead of addClass ... completely removing the branching from the code altogether.
Your input and output types are much simpler and static analysis is much easier as well.
For the other 99% of programming languages, that kind of interface makes the addClass implementation too complicated and forces unneeded branching into it. Consider: when the app developer is calling addClass, they _know_ which interface variation they're using. So they can easy write e.g. addClasses instead of addClass ... completely removing the branching from the code altogether.
Your input and output types are much simpler and static analysis is much easier as well.
I don't agree that library developers should make user lives easier. I want from library to provide only `addClass('name1')`. I can write array iteration, it's not hard. I need library to have a stable interface, as simple as possible. And I need library to have quality implementation. I don't use libraries for fancy APIs. I use libraries for tested implementation code. If I need fancy API, I'll write it for my use-case which will be better for my application anyway.
A lot of times making the user's life easier is about having a single correct way to do something.
It's true. A type specification also has the role of documentation, quickly telling the user how to use the thing. A ridiculous typespec - to support an "easier" API - has the effect of making it impenetrable.
> To this day I haven't found a way of doing this in TS
You use an ambient declaration to declare the missing classish part of the type.
You use an ambient declaration to declare the missing classish part of the type.
declare function myLibrary(arg: Type): myLibrary;
declare class myLibrary {
member: Type;
constructor(arg: Type);
}
> being flexible in what you accept when possible
I disagree with this. When working with rxjs I wanted to emit a single string in an error handler. Since strings are iterable I ended up with the characters being emitted.
The library authors added this "flexibility" (implicit conversion from values to observables) which caused a subtle bug that took me a while to figure out. A type error (expected observable, got string) would have prevented this.
I disagree with this. When working with rxjs I wanted to emit a single string in an error handler. Since strings are iterable I ended up with the characters being emitted.
The library authors added this "flexibility" (implicit conversion from values to observables) which caused a subtle bug that took me a while to figure out. A type error (expected observable, got string) would have prevented this.
the type definition of the same is clearer imo and not only that it is enforced by both the ide and the compiler. Libraries typically DO NOT write a bunch of code examples of all the legitimate arguments that can be passed. Also in your example above,
> .addClass(function(node, i) {return 'name1'})
^ what is node? What is i? Seems intuitive to think it must be a dom reference and an index. But in different domains it's not always gonna be so clear. Like I am not familiar with umbrella js, but maybe node could be a jquery object and not a plain dom ref? With typescript you can just say
type GetClassName = (node: HTMLElement, i: index) => string | string[]
// see how I added string[]. So I don't have to add yet another example
// of a function returning a string array instead of a string
and then add it to the union of types that can be passed into addClass. Great, no more guessing based on the domain knowledge I have (or don't), it's crystal clear. And it forces the lib developer to have the discipline to make it crystal clear, which they usually don't I'm afraid.
> .addClass(function(node, i) {return 'name1'})
^ what is node? What is i? Seems intuitive to think it must be a dom reference and an index. But in different domains it's not always gonna be so clear. Like I am not familiar with umbrella js, but maybe node could be a jquery object and not a plain dom ref? With typescript you can just say
type GetClassName = (node: HTMLElement, i: index) => string | string[]
// see how I added string[]. So I don't have to add yet another example
// of a function returning a string array instead of a string
and then add it to the union of types that can be passed into addClass. Great, no more guessing based on the domain knowledge I have (or don't), it's crystal clear. And it forces the lib developer to have the discipline to make it crystal clear, which they usually don't I'm afraid.
I agree. I am the creator of the data table lib datagridxl.com and I like to make my methods as flexible as possible. Example:
grid.selectRows(2) // index grid.selectRows([3,5]) // range grid.selectRows([[1,2],[4,6]]) // multiple ranges
It fits in the JavaScript spirit of "we will make it work" which I love.
Other major thing that made me decide to develop in es6 instead of typescript was compilation times. After a ctrl+s it had to compile ts to js for 10 seconds, which is annoying for me, as i like to check & test every minor code change.
grid.selectRows(2) // index grid.selectRows([3,5]) // range grid.selectRows([[1,2],[4,6]]) // multiple ranges
It fits in the JavaScript spirit of "we will make it work" which I love.
Other major thing that made me decide to develop in es6 instead of typescript was compilation times. After a ctrl+s it had to compile ts to js for 10 seconds, which is annoying for me, as i like to check & test every minor code change.
> Other major thing that made me decide to develop in es6 instead of typescript was compilation times. After a ctrl+s it had to compile ts to js for 10 seconds, which is annoying for me, as i like to check & test every minor code change.
Typescript has a --watch mode that compiles as you work. Most test runners also often have a --watch mode. Test runners that support Typescript directly don't even need Typescript's --watch to be running as they'll do both, compile and test in a single step as you save. Anecdotally, the time it takes to run tests dwarfs any Typescript compile times and in a --watch mode of a test runner there's almost zero difference in the time it takes to watch ES2015+ tests or Typescript tests.
Typescript has a --watch mode that compiles as you work. Most test runners also often have a --watch mode. Test runners that support Typescript directly don't even need Typescript's --watch to be running as they'll do both, compile and test in a single step as you save. Anecdotally, the time it takes to run tests dwarfs any Typescript compile times and in a --watch mode of a test runner there's almost zero difference in the time it takes to watch ES2015+ tests or Typescript tests.
> That is the whole point in creating a library. To hide complexity in a nice easy to use interface/API.
Totally agree. Minor ergonomic changes in a library have a wildly disproportionate impact on developers. If I save a developer 5 seconds with a better type, and I have 1000 developers using my library, that's 5,000 seconds I just saved - and that's assuming they only ever use my type a single time! With this in mind, I'm totally OK paying a tax on making libraries a bit harder to write, if it means that the benefits of stronger types fan out. After all, writing that type could take 4,995 seconds for me to write and still be a net positive.
And honestly, 5 seconds isn't even close to accurate. Good type definitions have saved me hours.
Totally agree. Minor ergonomic changes in a library have a wildly disproportionate impact on developers. If I save a developer 5 seconds with a better type, and I have 1000 developers using my library, that's 5,000 seconds I just saved - and that's assuming they only ever use my type a single time! With this in mind, I'm totally OK paying a tax on making libraries a bit harder to write, if it means that the benefits of stronger types fan out. After all, writing that type could take 4,995 seconds for me to write and still be a net positive.
And honestly, 5 seconds isn't even close to accurate. Good type definitions have saved me hours.
Thanks for reading the article!
> That is the whole point in creating a library. To hide complexity in a nice easy to use interface/API.
I think that's a fair point, but generating types that satisfy all use cases is very challenging to get right -- disproportionately so. I could see a world where -- without proper tooling and growing complexity -- typescript libraries becomes so difficult to maintain that people give up or burn out. Maybe that's a pessimistic outlook but I already feel that way some days.
> That is the whole point in creating a library. To hide complexity in a nice easy to use interface/API.
I think that's a fair point, but generating types that satisfy all use cases is very challenging to get right -- disproportionately so. I could see a world where -- without proper tooling and growing complexity -- typescript libraries becomes so difficult to maintain that people give up or burn out. Maybe that's a pessimistic outlook but I already feel that way some days.
In strongly-typed programming languages, which includes Typescript, figuring out the types *of the interface* is not something that's done after the fact. `@types/*` is an exceptional project meant to back-port JS libraries to TypeScript, but that's the exception, not the rule.
If you write a library in TypeScript, determining what types are present as part of the interface is one of the very first thing that should be done.
If you write a library in TypeScript, determining what types are present as part of the interface is one of the very first thing that should be done.
> In strongly-typed programming languages, which includes Typescript, figuring out the types is not something that's done after the fact.
Too broad a statement. There's loads of value in having a compiler figure out types for you after/when you write the code.
Too broad a statement. There's loads of value in having a compiler figure out types for you after/when you write the code.
Hard disagree as far as the portions of it that are part of the user-facing public interface are concerned.
But granted, as a general rule you are correct. I was referring specifically to API interfaces.
But granted, as a general rule you are correct. I was referring specifically to API interfaces.
If you're talking about type-inference, sure, I guess it's fine.
If you're talking about figuring out what types you're going to accept, you should absolutely be defining that on your own up-front. If you don't even know what your types are how is an end user going to figure it out?
If you're talking about figuring out what types you're going to accept, you should absolutely be defining that on your own up-front. If you don't even know what your types are how is an end user going to figure it out?
Often libraries are bootstrapped from application code. Having a step function in complexity is not helpful in fostering an ecosystem with a broad range of maturity.
Another way to phrase this is “statically typed languages suck if you want to write highly dynamically typed code.” That’s true. I think there’s 3 options here:
1. Keep writing code in a very dynamically typed style, despite choosing a statically typed language. Just deal with/stomach the extreme type complexity that is necessary to model your dynamic style statically
2. Keep writing code in a very dynamically typed style, and switch to a dynamically typed language
3. Stop writing code in a very dynamically typed style. If you’re using a statically typed language, write code that embraces static types
IMO 2 and 3 are both reasonable choices, but the author is deciding to choose 1, which is of course painful. I strongly disagree that libraries must be super dynamic though - that’s a pure style choice that some library authors adopt, but you can absolutely write basically any library in a static types friendly style, you just need to reflect that in your interfaces.
I guess the one thing that IS TS specific is that ppl can write their libs in JS, then try to add types to it, and if they chose crazy dynamic interfaces, it will be an incredible pain to statically type. But honestly, you could just say “this is a JS lib, there will be no TS types.”
1. Keep writing code in a very dynamically typed style, despite choosing a statically typed language. Just deal with/stomach the extreme type complexity that is necessary to model your dynamic style statically
2. Keep writing code in a very dynamically typed style, and switch to a dynamically typed language
3. Stop writing code in a very dynamically typed style. If you’re using a statically typed language, write code that embraces static types
IMO 2 and 3 are both reasonable choices, but the author is deciding to choose 1, which is of course painful. I strongly disagree that libraries must be super dynamic though - that’s a pure style choice that some library authors adopt, but you can absolutely write basically any library in a static types friendly style, you just need to reflect that in your interfaces.
I guess the one thing that IS TS specific is that ppl can write their libs in JS, then try to add types to it, and if they chose crazy dynamic interfaces, it will be an incredible pain to statically type. But honestly, you could just say “this is a JS lib, there will be no TS types.”
> Another way to phrase this is “statically typed languages suck if you want to write highly dynamically typed code.”
Reminds me a lot of the NoSQL wars which eventually boiled down to 'Non-relational databases suck if you want to store highly relational data'. As ever, there are no silver bullets, only the right tools for certain jobs.
Reminds me a lot of the NoSQL wars which eventually boiled down to 'Non-relational databases suck if you want to store highly relational data'. As ever, there are no silver bullets, only the right tools for certain jobs.
I can empathize with the author here that types can be very challenging to get right, especially with high amounts of dynamism.
However, I think that saying it is "terrible for library developers" is a bit far. I think its terrible for developers who want to make use of advance types... which ultimately doesn't depend if you're a library dev at all.
It boils down to: "Typescript learning curve gets really steep after the basics"
The author mentions they help maintain redux-saga. I don't want to dig on them, but from my personal experience, that library takes you down quite an opinionated application path with complexity inherit to it. Heck, just making types for redux was a pain, let alone adding async and additional composability.
My take is that the author has chosen complex tech to work with, and that influences the complexity in their types.
However, I think that saying it is "terrible for library developers" is a bit far. I think its terrible for developers who want to make use of advance types... which ultimately doesn't depend if you're a library dev at all.
It boils down to: "Typescript learning curve gets really steep after the basics"
The author mentions they help maintain redux-saga. I don't want to dig on them, but from my personal experience, that library takes you down quite an opinionated application path with complexity inherit to it. Heck, just making types for redux was a pain, let alone adding async and additional composability.
My take is that the author has chosen complex tech to work with, and that influences the complexity in their types.
My personal experience as a library developer, who has written my library in JS, not TS ...
TS is an excellent choice for a lib dev starting a new project today. I can see the advantages of using TS for the library code - in particular for a library that gets popular and welcomes contributions from other developers. However TS is a nightmare for someone like me who: 1. started writing the library 9 years ago; 2. has let the library get "quite" big; and 3. has only learned to use TS in the past year (for the day job) and is nowhere near to becoming a types expert.
I've had experience of people suggesting I rewrite the library in TS. Sometimes those suggestions have been quite 'evangelical' in their tone. As an (essentially) solo developer I just don't have the time, capacity or willingness to do that work - however much the end results might please others.
I also understand that having type definitions file for the library's interface is, nowadays, a critical factor if the lib dev wants others to use the library in their projects. But writing a .d.ts file for a large, mature repo to at least help those potential users can quickly turn into a World of Hurt. I know this because I've done that work[1] and I never want to do it again.
As much as I know that TS is a Force for Good in the JS coding world, there are days when I detest it!
[1] - link to the Scrawl-canvas .d.ts file on GitHub - https://github.com/KaliedaRik/Scrawl-canvas/blob/master/sour...
TS is an excellent choice for a lib dev starting a new project today. I can see the advantages of using TS for the library code - in particular for a library that gets popular and welcomes contributions from other developers. However TS is a nightmare for someone like me who: 1. started writing the library 9 years ago; 2. has let the library get "quite" big; and 3. has only learned to use TS in the past year (for the day job) and is nowhere near to becoming a types expert.
I've had experience of people suggesting I rewrite the library in TS. Sometimes those suggestions have been quite 'evangelical' in their tone. As an (essentially) solo developer I just don't have the time, capacity or willingness to do that work - however much the end results might please others.
I also understand that having type definitions file for the library's interface is, nowadays, a critical factor if the lib dev wants others to use the library in their projects. But writing a .d.ts file for a large, mature repo to at least help those potential users can quickly turn into a World of Hurt. I know this because I've done that work[1] and I never want to do it again.
As much as I know that TS is a Force for Good in the JS coding world, there are days when I detest it!
[1] - link to the Scrawl-canvas .d.ts file on GitHub - https://github.com/KaliedaRik/Scrawl-canvas/blob/master/sour...
Props to you for doing a painstaking job. After-the-fact .d.ts for large mature libraries usually end up with too many anys, or subtle breakages that necessitate @ts-ignore, or a combination of both.
Interesting. you write your .d.ts file by hand?
Yes. I wrote the entire .d.ts file by hand.
I did look at including JSDoc comments in the .js files to define types and function signatures, from which I could then autogenerate TS documentation files. But the results were a mess, and they ruined the existing documentation. Given that documenting the code in a way that allows me to autogenerate doc files (in a format that I like) is paramount, I abandoned that idea.
Also, the library's structure just doesn't sit well with my limited understanding of TS and TS definitions. I got the impression from the TS docs that the TS developers really like JS classes, and are not that keen on ES6 modules - which is unfortunate because my library makes heavy use of prototypes, modified by mixin functions.
So I hand-wrote a single definitions file in a way that matched as closely as possible the library's structure and preferences. Hopefully that file is enough to give developers some useful tips in their preferred IDE when they use the library in their projects. But I've only tested this in Sublime Text.
I did look at including JSDoc comments in the .js files to define types and function signatures, from which I could then autogenerate TS documentation files. But the results were a mess, and they ruined the existing documentation. Given that documenting the code in a way that allows me to autogenerate doc files (in a format that I like) is paramount, I abandoned that idea.
Also, the library's structure just doesn't sit well with my limited understanding of TS and TS definitions. I got the impression from the TS docs that the TS developers really like JS classes, and are not that keen on ES6 modules - which is unfortunate because my library makes heavy use of prototypes, modified by mixin functions.
So I hand-wrote a single definitions file in a way that matched as closely as possible the library's structure and preferences. Hopefully that file is enough to give developers some useful tips in their preferred IDE when they use the library in their projects. But I've only tested this in Sublime Text.
I find that most of the pain/complexity around TypeScript types happens when you're trying to write super dynamic or polymorphic JavaScript-style code and then put types on top. This comes out especially when adding types to an existing codebase. I can definitely see how this would affect library authors more than application authors, but I'm not sure it's TypeScript's fault, and I think it can be avoided by making different choices about what interfaces you expose
Or, worst-case, just weakening your types. Plenty of libraries have weaker types than they could have, but sometimes it's justified because it would be hard to get them exactly right
Or, worst-case, just weakening your types. Plenty of libraries have weaker types than they could have, but sometimes it's justified because it would be hard to get them exactly right
The idea that some developers think their code is so smart/complicated it cannot possibly expressed in a statically analyzable manner is pure hubris to me, JS/Python and friends sure have encouraged some bad patterns over the years.
Sure it has a learning curve but I see highly flexible strictly typed as the medium-term future of pretty much all development as they provide invaluable safety nets for development, risk mitigation and productivity.
Large code bases without strong rigor,testing and/or static type analysis (eg. mypy/ts/flow) have no future and will not scale.
Sure it has a learning curve but I see highly flexible strictly typed as the medium-term future of pretty much all development as they provide invaluable safety nets for development, risk mitigation and productivity.
Large code bases without strong rigor,testing and/or static type analysis (eg. mypy/ts/flow) have no future and will not scale.
I liked the article, and I'm sympathetic to the overall point...
> The kind of hoops I have to jump through to get types "just right" in a web app versus a library is dramatically different. It's rare in a web app for me to need constructs like conditional types, type operators, and overloads. As a library developer, they are heavily used. These constructs are highly dynamic and embed logic into your types. This leads into my next frustration with typescript which is debugging.
I would have like to see some examples of "conditional types, type operators, and overloads" in action, and an argument for why these constructs are so much more prevalent in library code than in application code.
I don't have a counter-argument, and I don't have any reason to doubt the author's insight, but after reading the article I don't feel like I have an increased understanding of the problem-space.
> The kind of hoops I have to jump through to get types "just right" in a web app versus a library is dramatically different. It's rare in a web app for me to need constructs like conditional types, type operators, and overloads. As a library developer, they are heavily used. These constructs are highly dynamic and embed logic into your types. This leads into my next frustration with typescript which is debugging.
I would have like to see some examples of "conditional types, type operators, and overloads" in action, and an argument for why these constructs are so much more prevalent in library code than in application code.
I don't have a counter-argument, and I don't have any reason to doubt the author's insight, but after reading the article I don't feel like I have an increased understanding of the problem-space.
Because in application you're on consumer side, you have concrete types you're working with, in library on the other hand you're often providing generic code with parametric polymorphism, some constraints, you'll use type mapping etc.
Before judging it as "terrible" it would be good if author has more constructive criticism - if typescript is "terrible" what is not "terrible", haskell? What are specific things that can be changed to make it simpler? What if typescript is actually very good but the underlying type theory is just inherently complex?
You also have to appreciate what kind of value it brings to library users - and imho, in many cases, the value is so high that the whole discussion is a nobrainer.
In my opinion - if you want to use typescript, you need to learn it, especially when writing libraries. It doesn't make sense to want to use something and not want to learn it at the same time.
Before judging it as "terrible" it would be good if author has more constructive criticism - if typescript is "terrible" what is not "terrible", haskell? What are specific things that can be changed to make it simpler? What if typescript is actually very good but the underlying type theory is just inherently complex?
You also have to appreciate what kind of value it brings to library users - and imho, in many cases, the value is so high that the whole discussion is a nobrainer.
In my opinion - if you want to use typescript, you need to learn it, especially when writing libraries. It doesn't make sense to want to use something and not want to learn it at the same time.
It's been ages since my last dive into the js galaxy, but from my outside perspective I read that as "the usual mess that we like to do to provide awesome backwards compatibility when introducing wildly changed API generations is very difficult to sneak past the typechecker". Not sure that I read it correctly, but it would certainly fit "conditional types, type operators, and overloads".
Why are they more prevalent in library code: to make changes non-breaking (or breaking, but fixable with minor tweaks). Of course types can also be a solution to this problem, by promoting consequences of incompatible change from runtime to compile time, but that only holds if you can assume that all calling code is type checked.
Why are they more prevalent in library code: to make changes non-breaking (or breaking, but fixable with minor tweaks). Of course types can also be a solution to this problem, by promoting consequences of incompatible change from runtime to compile time, but that only holds if you can assume that all calling code is type checked.
My colleague posted an interesting article that addresses the disparity between an end-user of a typescript library and being a library author.
As the user of a library, not only do I hope for excellent documentation, but I also hope that the library authors have designed an ergonomic API that provides clear and consistent typings when using TypeScript. What I acknowledge I lack is a clear understanding of the level of effort that is required. Designing and building a library is challenging, creating documentation takes time, and support TypeScript types is another burden that I place on library authors.
Check out the article: https://liveloveapp.com/blog/2022-08-23-overcoming-typescrip...
As the user of a library, not only do I hope for excellent documentation, but I also hope that the library authors have designed an ergonomic API that provides clear and consistent typings when using TypeScript. What I acknowledge I lack is a clear understanding of the level of effort that is required. Designing and building a library is challenging, creating documentation takes time, and support TypeScript types is another burden that I place on library authors.
Check out the article: https://liveloveapp.com/blog/2022-08-23-overcoming-typescrip...
This article made me laugh. I worked and am working with new typescript developers in my day job. They all go through the stages of typescript grief.
- Denial - This should be pretty easy, just put types everywhere!
- Anger - But my code is correct! The damn compiler doesn't understand what I mean!
- Bargaining - Can't I just use any?
- Depression - This will take forever to figure out and I have a deadline :(
- Acceptance - It's a tool like any other, it's a hassle, most of the time is useless but sometimes it saves you from bugs and makes collaboration easier.
You just have to accept that the type specification in typescript is a whole separate language that you have to learn, that takes time to write correctly.
In my experience that's at least 30% more than writing js when you know what you are doing, more when you don't. Adding the linter and tests you end up spending more time on these correctness checks than actually writing code, and that is ok, or not, depending on the project goals.
When you are writing library code this cost goes up, WAY up because your library will be used in multiple ways by different people so you have a combinatorial explosion of cases that need to be handled.
I don't understand where this expectation that writing typescript should be as easy and quick as writing js.
IMHO the typescript docs are one of the best resources (just compare them to python docs...)
- Denial - This should be pretty easy, just put types everywhere!
- Anger - But my code is correct! The damn compiler doesn't understand what I mean!
- Bargaining - Can't I just use any?
- Depression - This will take forever to figure out and I have a deadline :(
- Acceptance - It's a tool like any other, it's a hassle, most of the time is useless but sometimes it saves you from bugs and makes collaboration easier.
You just have to accept that the type specification in typescript is a whole separate language that you have to learn, that takes time to write correctly.
In my experience that's at least 30% more than writing js when you know what you are doing, more when you don't. Adding the linter and tests you end up spending more time on these correctness checks than actually writing code, and that is ok, or not, depending on the project goals.
When you are writing library code this cost goes up, WAY up because your library will be used in multiple ways by different people so you have a combinatorial explosion of cases that need to be handled.
I don't understand where this expectation that writing typescript should be as easy and quick as writing js.
IMHO the typescript docs are one of the best resources (just compare them to python docs...)
Something I've long wanted is a type-explainer - something that will let me highlight parts of a type definition and tell me in English what the fragment means. The example that OP linked elsewhere in this thread [0] is a good one - I know what parts of that mean, but I've never seen "T extends string = string" before.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32569708
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32569708
It's just "T extends string", with a default value of `string` if you don't supply T.
[deleted]
And the purpose of "T extends string" is to carry the value of a string literal. For example, there's the string value "foo", but there's also a type "foo" which extends string and has only the one possible value.
That would be cool to see, actually reminds me of the cdecl explain project [1].
[1] https://cdecl.org/
[1] https://cdecl.org/
createAction #1 #2
This is a disaster part of typescript that will doom you all. Through years and languages I made an observation, and it is:
If you give a way for smart people to create a horrible mess, they will internalize it eventually.
Sendmail.cf, template meatprogramming, #define hell, etc. Typescript “type manipulation” is one of these ways. It may seem very cool that you can define base types and then extend and reshape them in derivatives all you want. But types are not about solving puzzles in one go declaratively, they are about helping developers to understand which code may be incorrect. There is nothing wrong with declaring all the derivatives by copying type code and modifying it, because if there’s inconsistency, it will be caught later in tests, in interfaces, in your own code. Yes you create a dynamic structure of types, but it goes beyond human limits to understand or debug it.
One way to fix that is “type assertions”, based on the same principle. E.g. instead of declaring type B as a programmatic derivative of type A (and/or/with dozen of type metaprogramming routines), you just write B as it is and then assert that B maps to A as designed. Or make an IDE do this for you automatically. These assertions will still be hard to read, but the resulting type B will remain both understandable and correct.
Also, separately, please stop making polymorphic interfaces like “if you pass an object with key X after an object with key Y, that means mode of operation A, otherwise it’s mode B unless there is an array of numbers before the argument of type T, then it’s mode C”. They may look cool in readme.md, but are hard to remember and work with on both sides of an interface.
This is a disaster part of typescript that will doom you all. Through years and languages I made an observation, and it is:
If you give a way for smart people to create a horrible mess, they will internalize it eventually.
Sendmail.cf, template meatprogramming, #define hell, etc. Typescript “type manipulation” is one of these ways. It may seem very cool that you can define base types and then extend and reshape them in derivatives all you want. But types are not about solving puzzles in one go declaratively, they are about helping developers to understand which code may be incorrect. There is nothing wrong with declaring all the derivatives by copying type code and modifying it, because if there’s inconsistency, it will be caught later in tests, in interfaces, in your own code. Yes you create a dynamic structure of types, but it goes beyond human limits to understand or debug it.
One way to fix that is “type assertions”, based on the same principle. E.g. instead of declaring type B as a programmatic derivative of type A (and/or/with dozen of type metaprogramming routines), you just write B as it is and then assert that B maps to A as designed. Or make an IDE do this for you automatically. These assertions will still be hard to read, but the resulting type B will remain both understandable and correct.
Also, separately, please stop making polymorphic interfaces like “if you pass an object with key X after an object with key Y, that means mode of operation A, otherwise it’s mode B unless there is an array of numbers before the argument of type T, then it’s mode C”. They may look cool in readme.md, but are hard to remember and work with on both sides of an interface.
Oh, man. This hits home. I wrote a bunch of libraries for public consumption with Flowtype - Facebook's competitor to TS, which was dominant circa 2016 - and there was very little on "advanced types" available to us. React types ended up being a massive pain, from the banal (React.Component vs React.Element) to the crucial (how do you represent the required props of a component, when some subset of them are being injected via context?)
Like the author, I used the redux code heavily to figure out what I needed to do, but it changed often and it seemed like the authors were also discovering the best way to use it. Combine with a bunch of Facebookisms (they were literally called that inside Flowtype source!) that were half-baked and... yes, we were just doing trial and error to make our typedefs succeed.
Add onto that a severe weakness of Flowtype, its propensity to coerce to `any` without telling you, making your types green but masking real errors and... it was a time. A time with a pain quotient in the neighborhood of doing async module loaders in 2012, or cross-browser DOM manipulation in 2008. It seems, we always find a new problem to tickle our brains.
Like the author, I used the redux code heavily to figure out what I needed to do, but it changed often and it seemed like the authors were also discovering the best way to use it. Combine with a bunch of Facebookisms (they were literally called that inside Flowtype source!) that were half-baked and... yes, we were just doing trial and error to make our typedefs succeed.
Add onto that a severe weakness of Flowtype, its propensity to coerce to `any` without telling you, making your types green but masking real errors and... it was a time. A time with a pain quotient in the neighborhood of doing async module loaders in 2012, or cross-browser DOM manipulation in 2008. It seems, we always find a new problem to tickle our brains.
I'm very curious, which "Redux code" are you referring to here?
I don't think the `redux` core lib ever shipped any Flow types itself. Looking at the FlowTyped repo, I see community typedefs at https://github.com/flow-typed/flow-typed/tree/master/definit... , and the Git history suggests those were indeed written by community members.
(of course on the flip side, _I_ didn't even start learning TS myself until 2019, and goodness knows _that_ has been a lot of trial and error over time :) )
I don't think the `redux` core lib ever shipped any Flow types itself. Looking at the FlowTyped repo, I see community typedefs at https://github.com/flow-typed/flow-typed/tree/master/definit... , and the Git history suggests those were indeed written by community members.
(of course on the flip side, _I_ didn't even start learning TS myself until 2019, and goodness knows _that_ has been a lot of trial and error over time :) )
TypeScript has come a long way, but one of its biggest issues is the complete lack of FORCED sensible naming conventions.
Generics are the worst offender, with people often using a single letter to represent something that's both hard to keep track of and impossible to intuitively make sense of.
Any type should be: `TUser` and not `User`.
Any generic should be: `<GPerson>` and not `<P>`.
Any interface should simply not exist because it's TypeScript, not InterfaceScript. The addition of classes into JavaScript was unnecessary sugar and they should just do away with it. So, `type` for everything, no more `interface`.
But that's a whole different subject.
I've also noticed that people over-engineer TypeScript. I had a team mate telling me he wanted to make URLs type-safe. I asked: "But why?" and he had no answer. There was no problem preceding it. There wasn't anyone asking for it. It wouldn't solve something we didn't know. It would just make the codebase more confusing to deal with because, in his solution, there wasn't a single place where routes were defined. Nope, routes would be inferred from Pages and their use of Page props.
It was genius. But it also was over 2000 (two THOUSAND) lines of code that I didn't feel like I wanted to deal with.
I gave him permission to publish it and get the open-source community involved. Once it's tried & tested over the course of many users and lots of time, we could consider it.
He wasn't happy. He was also not very pragmatic. TypeScript seems to do that to people. The "never any `any`"-crowd is so tiresome.
Generics are the worst offender, with people often using a single letter to represent something that's both hard to keep track of and impossible to intuitively make sense of.
Any type should be: `TUser` and not `User`.
Any generic should be: `<GPerson>` and not `<P>`.
Any interface should simply not exist because it's TypeScript, not InterfaceScript. The addition of classes into JavaScript was unnecessary sugar and they should just do away with it. So, `type` for everything, no more `interface`.
But that's a whole different subject.
I've also noticed that people over-engineer TypeScript. I had a team mate telling me he wanted to make URLs type-safe. I asked: "But why?" and he had no answer. There was no problem preceding it. There wasn't anyone asking for it. It wouldn't solve something we didn't know. It would just make the codebase more confusing to deal with because, in his solution, there wasn't a single place where routes were defined. Nope, routes would be inferred from Pages and their use of Page props.
It was genius. But it also was over 2000 (two THOUSAND) lines of code that I didn't feel like I wanted to deal with.
I gave him permission to publish it and get the open-source community involved. Once it's tried & tested over the course of many users and lots of time, we could consider it.
He wasn't happy. He was also not very pragmatic. TypeScript seems to do that to people. The "never any `any`"-crowd is so tiresome.
> It was genius. But it also was [...] code that I didn't feel like I wanted to deal with
You sound like a sysadmin my friend! This is exactly how I feel about plenty of software that I've allowed into production, but that now keeps me up at night and distracts me from spending time with my kids.
One of the most useful things about plain JavaScript at this point is seeing if it causes genuine disgust. It's a razor for idealism versus pragmatism.
You sound like a sysadmin my friend! This is exactly how I feel about plenty of software that I've allowed into production, but that now keeps me up at night and distracts me from spending time with my kids.
One of the most useful things about plain JavaScript at this point is seeing if it causes genuine disgust. It's a razor for idealism versus pragmatism.
> The addition of classes into JavaScript was unnecessary sugar and they should just do away with it.
Weird. Classes are one of my favorite features, even before using TS. I do a lot of data modeling using functional techniques and the class keyword allows a really intuitive way of encapsulating things.
Weird. Classes are one of my favorite features, even before using TS. I do a lot of data modeling using functional techniques and the class keyword allows a really intuitive way of encapsulating things.
> In effect, we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers
That is the whole reason to use libraries.
This blog post shows that types make development more enjoyable by shifting the complexity burden to library authors, who are vastly fewer in number than library users. It is a clear win.
That is the whole reason to use libraries.
This blog post shows that types make development more enjoyable by shifting the complexity burden to library authors, who are vastly fewer in number than library users. It is a clear win.
I would have liked to see examples. My own instinct here would be to use simpler types, but examples could show why that isn't desirable.
Agreed. I updated the blog to add an example. Copy/pasting here:
I spend a decent amount of time in the redux world so `redux-toolkit` is a great library to see how types are done *correctly* in a real codebase. To be clear, they do a fantastic job with types, but the level of complexity is pretty startling.
https://github.com/reduxjs/redux-toolkit/blob/master/package...
That is just one example but the codebase is riddled with complex types. Also, when you look around, note the amount of types vs actual code.
It's pretty common in style guides to never nest ternaries. In typescript, that's the only way to narrow types based on other types. It's a mess!
I spend a decent amount of time in the redux world so `redux-toolkit` is a great library to see how types are done *correctly* in a real codebase. To be clear, they do a fantastic job with types, but the level of complexity is pretty startling.
https://github.com/reduxjs/redux-toolkit/blob/master/package...
That is just one example but the codebase is riddled with complex types. Also, when you look around, note the amount of types vs actual code.
It's pretty common in style guides to never nest ternaries. In typescript, that's the only way to narrow types based on other types. It's a mess!
Along the lines of "just use a dynamic language", we use unknown and any type for a lot of our internal stuff like this.
Strongly typed shell, whatever works core.
Strongly typed shell, whatever works core.
Thank you.
They probably just keep running into issues that seem really trivial but are unable to find info on fixing. It's the reason I put off writing things in typescript until relatively recently.
In that vein, if anyone here can tell me how the hell you functionally map over a typed object by key in typescript I'll be eternally grateful.
I always wanna do something like Object.keys(typedObjName).map(...) but that doesn't work.
It's so stupid and small and minor and it's never really prevented me from getting something done but it drives me out of my mind that I still can't find any clear documentation on how to do it.
In that vein, if anyone here can tell me how the hell you functionally map over a typed object by key in typescript I'll be eternally grateful.
I always wanna do something like Object.keys(typedObjName).map(...) but that doesn't work.
It's so stupid and small and minor and it's never really prevented me from getting something done but it drives me out of my mind that I still can't find any clear documentation on how to do it.
> I always wanna do something like Object.keys(typedObjName).map(...) but that doesn't work.
Is this a type space/value space thing? Like Object.keys(...) is always a string[] instead of Array<keyof TypedObj> like you might expect?
Is this a type space/value space thing? Like Object.keys(...) is always a string[] instead of Array<keyof TypedObj> like you might expect?
possibly but the error (that I can't seem to get anymore) was always saying something about TypedObj missing an iterator, making Object.keys() unable to parse it. But I'm not getting that anymore so I have no idea what's going on. Like I said it's just a minor thing that's popped up a few times so I guess I'll just have to wait until it pops up again to know for sure what's up.
Do you have an example for what you want to do, with an object before and after mapping? I don't understand what you mean by "functionally map over a typed object by key"
I think I have run into a similar issue. I wrote a lexer in Typescript. It is table-based, as is the parser that runs after it. The type for the table looks something like this:
To get the typechecking back on the keys, you either need to declare the loop variable outside of the loop itself, or use type casting like this:
type TokenTable<T> = {
plus: T,
minus: T,
bang: T,
parenOpen: T,
//etc.
};
To get the typechecking back on the keys, you either need to declare the loop variable outside of the loop itself, or use type casting like this:
let token = "";
let id: TokenID | undefined;
for (let key in patterns) {
const match = patterns[key as TokenID].exec(substring);
if (match && (match[0].length > token.length || key == "EOF")) {
token = match[0];
id = key as TokenID;
}
}
You can approximate something by defining the valid TokenTable keys as an enum, and using a mapped type for the actual TokenTable type.
There's some boilerplate in the definition, but it's fairly clean and non-repetitive. And easy to use in the "client code".
https://www.typescriptlang.org/play?#code/KYOwrgtgBAKg9ga1AS...
There's some boilerplate in the definition, but it's fairly clean and non-repetitive. And easy to use in the "client code".
https://www.typescriptlang.org/play?#code/KYOwrgtgBAKg9ga1AS...
You can also write the array first, without using enum:
const tokens = ['parenOpen', 'bang', 'plus', 'minus'] as const;
type Token = typeof tokens[number];
type TokenTable<T> = Record<Token, T> // alias for { [key in Token]: T }
const isToken = (t: string): t is Token => tokens.includes(t);
const patterns: TokenTable<RegExp> = { bang: /\+/, // rest }
const tokens = ['parenOpen', 'bang', 'plus', 'minus'] as const;
type Token = typeof tokens[number];
type TokenTable<T> = Record<Token, T> // alias for { [key in Token]: T }
const isToken = (t: string): t is Token => tokens.includes(t);
const patterns: TokenTable<RegExp> = { bang: /\+/, // rest }
You put some real effort into the example. It's the opposite approach of how I did it, yet works just as well. Thanks!
Can you define a const array with type Array<TokenId> and use it every time you want to loop through these keys?
That's a possibility, yes. This is the only time in the program that a token table is iterated through, however. Most of the time a table is consulted to pursue an action in the parser. For example, there's a function table for when a statement is encountered, another for when an expression operand is encountered, etc. Each entry in the table is either an error message or code which completes the parsing of that statement. The awkwardness above is excusable when it is encountered so little. When writing expression-heavy stuff like 'Object.keys(typedObjName).map(...)' it's more of a problem.
I can't really think of like, a practical use case but here's a jsFiddle of what I mean.
https://jsfiddle.net/knvztxq7/ ^ that code will work, it outputs the key names to the console
https://jsfiddle.net/knvztxq7/1/ ^ that code... is also working even though I swear it hasn't worked for me before so now I think I'm actually just losing my mind.
Yeah wow I can't reproduce my error now... I'll come back here if I figure out what I did.
https://jsfiddle.net/knvztxq7/ ^ that code will work, it outputs the key names to the console
https://jsfiddle.net/knvztxq7/1/ ^ that code... is also working even though I swear it hasn't worked for me before so now I think I'm actually just losing my mind.
Yeah wow I can't reproduce my error now... I'll come back here if I figure out what I did.
Object.entries(typedObjName).map(([key, value]) => `${key}${value}`)
I suspect it’s a case of bolting on types to soupy JS but would also love to see some examples. I agree with the other commentators that part of the point of a library is to suck in complexity but if you’re regularly doing high level type kungfu there are probably bigger structural issues.
You only really need super complicated types to represent existing very-dynamic javascript libraries. If you're starting from scratch typescript is as easy and/or easier than javascript. If you do have incredibly complicated types, it might be a sign that you have a bad design. At work most of the typescript libraries I wrote just ended up using interfaces and enumerated strings and occasionally a union type. Sometimes I'd use "never" to prevent certain things, but I can't say the types ever had to get much more complex than that.
Libraries need good documentation with reference and code examples. What libraries don't need is complex type annotations that wont make it into the compiled code anyway. The worst documentation I've ever seen is the one that use the types as documentation, looking at you the Language server interface.
(Hoping to not invalidate anyone's concerns with this comment)
The majority of complaints I heard on Typescript were in the lines of: "I should be able to do this X thing that would not fly in a static language / not a good idea". Many times Typescript caught me doing stupid things like passing the wrong type or not checking data adequately, also forcing me to comment my code by describing shape of the data. It was a life saver for debugging, though it's not perfect, it's more like lipstick on a pig for a badly designed language.
The majority of complaints I heard on Typescript were in the lines of: "I should be able to do this X thing that would not fly in a static language / not a good idea". Many times Typescript caught me doing stupid things like passing the wrong type or not checking data adequately, also forcing me to comment my code by describing shape of the data. It was a life saver for debugging, though it's not perfect, it's more like lipstick on a pig for a badly designed language.
The only convincing reason to use TS I've seen so far as a library author, which TBF is actually not about TS but about TSDoc/JSDoc, is how the autocomplete in VS Code works. Going from an empty/barebones autocomplete to actually having the documentation in-line is a pretty nice extra feature for my users IMHO:
https://twitter.com/FPresencia/status/1545932895126175746
https://twitter.com/FPresencia/status/1545932895126175746
The article boils down to asking for the TS team for better documentation and tooling. Hard to argue with that I guess.
> In effect, we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers.
Is this not why libraries are written in the first place?
> In effect, we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers.
Is this not why libraries are written in the first place?
Strong typing is most useful when used for library code. Users of libraries can make their code as dynamic as they like.
Edit: I think their complaints apply to library development using any language with types e.g. complex C++ template foo is most useful for libraries? There is little in the article that is specifically a problem with TypeScript.
* Good autocompletion. Great for developers using a library. Somewhat self-documenting.
* Narrows down origin of errors. Great for library users and library developers. Nobody wants uncertainty or finger pointing.
* Typing is a strong API contract. Breaking changes to the API are more likely to break existing code. That is absolutely good from the library user’s point-of-view.
If a library developer wishes to deploy a highly dynamic API for their library, they can just use “any”, but expect most developers to dislike the library.
Planning your types correctly, and designing the API carefully to use types, does cost library developers a lot of time and thought. But the library users get outsized gains because library users usually hugely outnumber library developers.
> we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers. This places a huge burden on us to be experts with how typescript works.
That is to be expected. Good library code is hard to write. It would be lovely if there were better resources to help library writers, however it is a specialist role since library users usually strongly outnumber library writers.
It appears to me that many of the design decisions in TypeScript for the type system are there to help library developers. Patterns of usage were recognised and then added to the type system.
Disclaimer: not a TypeScript library developer.
Edit: I think their complaints apply to library development using any language with types e.g. complex C++ template foo is most useful for libraries? There is little in the article that is specifically a problem with TypeScript.
* Good autocompletion. Great for developers using a library. Somewhat self-documenting.
* Narrows down origin of errors. Great for library users and library developers. Nobody wants uncertainty or finger pointing.
* Typing is a strong API contract. Breaking changes to the API are more likely to break existing code. That is absolutely good from the library user’s point-of-view.
If a library developer wishes to deploy a highly dynamic API for their library, they can just use “any”, but expect most developers to dislike the library.
Planning your types correctly, and designing the API carefully to use types, does cost library developers a lot of time and thought. But the library users get outsized gains because library users usually hugely outnumber library developers.
> we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers. This places a huge burden on us to be experts with how typescript works.
That is to be expected. Good library code is hard to write. It would be lovely if there were better resources to help library writers, however it is a specialist role since library users usually strongly outnumber library writers.
It appears to me that many of the design decisions in TypeScript for the type system are there to help library developers. Patterns of usage were recognised and then added to the type system.
Disclaimer: not a TypeScript library developer.
If you write your library in typescript, not JS, do you still have any of these problems?
If not, it sounds like one core issue is 'adding types to an existing untyped codebase is hard'. This checks out. :)
If not, it sounds like one core issue is 'adding types to an existing untyped codebase is hard'. This checks out. :)
Writing new library and expecting people to actually use it without providing types is not realistic. You can write library in JS, but you will still need to provide types, since that's what ecosystem is right now.
I disagree it's hard per se, but I'd agree it's hard to do well. Especially if you have a bunch of JS functions that return (or expect) objects with very similar but slightly different properties. Figuring out the overlap and the semantic relationship between the types is often challenging, because the original authors never thought about the problem in terms of what types of objects they were dealing with.
I hate to break it to you, but every single piece of technology you use depends on a library that is strongly typed. Without strong types, there is no contract you can depend on.
Imagine if every .so/dll/exe/obj/a file exported void* pointers as their inputs and outputs. That would be mayhem.
Imagine if every .so/dll/exe/obj/a file exported void* pointers as their inputs and outputs. That would be mayhem.
You mean like the Enlightenment Foundation Libraries[0]?
[0] https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/15001/enlightened
[0] https://what.thedailywtf.com/topic/15001/enlightened
I am really surprised by this guy's opinion. I make GoJS (https://gojs.net/), a diagramming library written in TypeScript with 68k weekly downloads on NPM. The project began in 2011 and we converted it to TS in 2018. It's been a huge plus. The sole downside was the initial time it took during conversion, but even in doing so we caught bugs with incorrect input types, documentation mistakes, bad range enforcement, etc.
On our end, it enforces type safety better than the Google Closure Compiler. There has scarcely been a problem with type complexity that was not ultimately our fault. Just a couple minor things that TS amended later. For that matter the TS experience has only gotten better, generally.
On our users end, we can now give them a .d.ts file that's much richer and easier for us to produce to aid their autocompletion. And we can use that .d.ts file to ensure that all the methods we intended to expose/minify are getting exposed. The advantages with the .d.ts and documentation make it feel almost essential to me for library developers to consider TS.
TypeScript has only made debugging easier, much easier since it catches errors at time of typing unlike the closure compiler. The sole exception is that debugging is a bit slower since I have to transpile instead of just refreshing the browser. But I have tsc set to compile a relatively unminified version of the JS. But if the slowness gets to me, I can just edit the JS output until I solve the issue, and then carry those edits over to the TS. This has never felt like a problem, though maybe his library is significantly more complicated.
It is very possible that my opinions are colored by using the Google Closure Compiler for so many years for type enforcement, long before TS, which has forced a level of discipline that may be unusual to JS programmers. But it seems like the problems are not with TS, but with the labors of architecting coherent and consistent APIs. But I am not familiar with the author's work to really judge.
Feel free to ask me anything if you have questions about library design + TS.
On our end, it enforces type safety better than the Google Closure Compiler. There has scarcely been a problem with type complexity that was not ultimately our fault. Just a couple minor things that TS amended later. For that matter the TS experience has only gotten better, generally.
On our users end, we can now give them a .d.ts file that's much richer and easier for us to produce to aid their autocompletion. And we can use that .d.ts file to ensure that all the methods we intended to expose/minify are getting exposed. The advantages with the .d.ts and documentation make it feel almost essential to me for library developers to consider TS.
TypeScript has only made debugging easier, much easier since it catches errors at time of typing unlike the closure compiler. The sole exception is that debugging is a bit slower since I have to transpile instead of just refreshing the browser. But I have tsc set to compile a relatively unminified version of the JS. But if the slowness gets to me, I can just edit the JS output until I solve the issue, and then carry those edits over to the TS. This has never felt like a problem, though maybe his library is significantly more complicated.
It is very possible that my opinions are colored by using the Google Closure Compiler for so many years for type enforcement, long before TS, which has forced a level of discipline that may be unusual to JS programmers. But it seems like the problems are not with TS, but with the labors of architecting coherent and consistent APIs. But I am not familiar with the author's work to really judge.
Feel free to ask me anything if you have questions about library design + TS.
A great counter point to the thinking in this article is this snippet by Dan Abramov: https://overreacted.io/what-are-the-react-team-principles/#a...
Yes we need better tools as library authors but absorbing this complexity is our job. The more we take advantage of what Typescript can do the fewer types the end users deal with and the better experience they have.
Making your library's internals simple should be a non-goal. The number of people dealing with it will be a fraction of the people dealing with codebases using your library.
Yes we need better tools as library authors but absorbing this complexity is our job. The more we take advantage of what Typescript can do the fewer types the end users deal with and the better experience they have.
Making your library's internals simple should be a non-goal. The number of people dealing with it will be a fraction of the people dealing with codebases using your library.
The primary issue I have with this article is that it points to redux-toolkit as having types that are done right. The same result of redux-toolkit create actions (https://github.com/reduxjs/redux-toolkit/blob/4ab8c42cb20ae1...) can be made mush simpler (see https://gist.github.com/baetheus/2e16ad4118b6fcd45e45756780e...). The only real difference between these two implementations is the simpler one doesn't overload a single function with multiple strategies for datatype creation.
In my opinion, our industry is not generally exposed to type level programming or dependent types. As a result there are many popular APIs (redux, redux-toolkit, react, vue, jquery) that implement variadic and generic interfaces with many overlapping options on single functions. If the types for these interfaces had been written (or long considered) before being published then the authors' might have noticed how complicated they are at the outset and perhaps decided to solve the simpler problems first and build the complexity slowly.
"It is a poor workperson that blames her tools"
In my opinion, our industry is not generally exposed to type level programming or dependent types. As a result there are many popular APIs (redux, redux-toolkit, react, vue, jquery) that implement variadic and generic interfaces with many overlapping options on single functions. If the types for these interfaces had been written (or long considered) before being published then the authors' might have noticed how complicated they are at the outset and perhaps decided to solve the simpler problems first and build the complexity slowly.
"It is a poor workperson that blames her tools"
I wish there were a formal subset of typescript that was go-like in design. Interfaces, structs, and simple types but not all the class-based object oriented complexity. A focus on composition instead of inheritance.
I like typescript but really worry that it's fueling a boom in unnecessary complexity and architecture. Are we going to look back at monster typescript codebases in the same way we look at monster java codebases riddled with abstract and redundant layers of complexity because the "design patterns" say to do it?
I like typescript but really worry that it's fueling a boom in unnecessary complexity and architecture. Are we going to look back at monster typescript codebases in the same way we look at monster java codebases riddled with abstract and redundant layers of complexity because the "design patterns" say to do it?
You don’t need new language, you can just not use classes ie. [0].
[0] https://github.com/preludejs
[0] https://github.com/preludejs
> Why are there no guides on the typescript site about library developers? What about a guide on the recommended tools for a library developer?
One interesting thing about Typescript is that it prefers .ts to .d.ts files.
So if you ship you .js, .js.map, .ts, and .d.ts files next to each other, your downstream consumers will be running expensive type inference on the .ts.
Instead, you have to manipulate package.json entries so that the .ts and the .d.ts are separate. (Or inline sources into source maps and exclude .ts from the package.)
One interesting thing about Typescript is that it prefers .ts to .d.ts files.
So if you ship you .js, .js.map, .ts, and .d.ts files next to each other, your downstream consumers will be running expensive type inference on the .ts.
Instead, you have to manipulate package.json entries so that the .ts and the .d.ts are separate. (Or inline sources into source maps and exclude .ts from the package.)
> There are a lot of reasons why typescript sucks for library developers, but at the end of the day it reduces developer productivity. In effect, we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers.
Isn't that the whole point of libraries? Instead of having a hundred end-users trying to understand a library's untyped API, we save overall developer time by having just the one library developer type its API.
Isn't that the whole point of libraries? Instead of having a hundred end-users trying to understand a library's untyped API, we save overall developer time by having just the one library developer type its API.
I don't depend on the actual typescript docs much but thankfully in @types and in tons of repos there are examples of well written typescript code.
The amount of JS and TS out there is also a bit of a foot gun though so stick with heavily used/starred libs if you aren't sure.
One tool that helps a lot with developing libraries in typescript is TSDX[0] or its successor dts-cli[1] and there is a bunch of good stuff in awesesome-typescript[2].
Maybe library devving is harder?(more work?) with tyepscript but it is worth it for the end developer, especially if that end developer is you. If you aren't using your own libs then you're probably getting paid by someone else to make them or... idk.
[0] https://github.com/jaredpalmer/tsdx
[1] https://github.com/weiran-zsd/dts-cli
[2] https://github.com/dzharii/awesome-typescript#libraries
The amount of JS and TS out there is also a bit of a foot gun though so stick with heavily used/starred libs if you aren't sure.
One tool that helps a lot with developing libraries in typescript is TSDX[0] or its successor dts-cli[1] and there is a bunch of good stuff in awesesome-typescript[2].
Maybe library devving is harder?(more work?) with tyepscript but it is worth it for the end developer, especially if that end developer is you. If you aren't using your own libs then you're probably getting paid by someone else to make them or... idk.
[0] https://github.com/jaredpalmer/tsdx
[1] https://github.com/weiran-zsd/dts-cli
[2] https://github.com/dzharii/awesome-typescript#libraries
A bit click-baity title but as I read the article, I agree on the overall thesis. The lack of documentation on how to use types is really annoying when you start going deep utilizing generic types and whatnot and bumping into weird errors.
Like for example, I wanted to type a generic object you can persist to a localStorage. What's the correct type?
Can't use an interface if you make a recursive type so you need a type. But if you use a Record<string | number, Persistable> and your client has some regular interface APIResponse { foo: string, bar: AnotherObject } the types dont match. I forget the specifics, but I ended up using { [key in string | number]?: PersistableValues } where PersistableValues includes all the primitives as well as arrays, sets, maps etc which I serialize/deserialize on persist and hydrate. Using `object` as type is listed as bad-practise in TS documentation which I agree but really, typing all the handled cases by hand is not fun either.
Wonder if I just should use any and throw an error if I encounter something I am unable to serialize.
Like for example, I wanted to type a generic object you can persist to a localStorage. What's the correct type?
Can't use an interface if you make a recursive type so you need a type. But if you use a Record<string | number, Persistable> and your client has some regular interface APIResponse { foo: string, bar: AnotherObject } the types dont match. I forget the specifics, but I ended up using { [key in string | number]?: PersistableValues } where PersistableValues includes all the primitives as well as arrays, sets, maps etc which I serialize/deserialize on persist and hydrate. Using `object` as type is listed as bad-practise in TS documentation which I agree but really, typing all the handled cases by hand is not fun either.
Wonder if I just should use any and throw an error if I encounter something I am unable to serialize.
Don't listen to HackerNews folks here, you've validated a lot of the issues that I've experienced as well. No one here is taking you seriously, because they're trying to put the blame on you, but it's not you, it's TypeScript. The solution is not to switch to something else, it's to put pressure on TypeScript to make this quality of life better.
> I spend more time tweaking types than I do writing library code.
This was basically me in a TypeScript React project, except that instead of being able to quickly iterate, instead I had to spend bunches of time messing around with types.
Of course, you could also say the exact same thing about using Java vs something like Python (though it has type hints available, of course; not that all codebases take advantage of it) and then have a discussion about what you think about strict type systems and where (front end/back end/DB) they're useful to have and in what capacity.
I guess it's one of those topics where thoughts differ, much like how some people might place a lot of emphasis on unit tests instead of integration tests, or even just (primarily) test the back end instead of bothering with front end tests, due to how much harder they can be to write, depending on the codebase.
This was basically me in a TypeScript React project, except that instead of being able to quickly iterate, instead I had to spend bunches of time messing around with types.
Of course, you could also say the exact same thing about using Java vs something like Python (though it has type hints available, of course; not that all codebases take advantage of it) and then have a discussion about what you think about strict type systems and where (front end/back end/DB) they're useful to have and in what capacity.
I guess it's one of those topics where thoughts differ, much like how some people might place a lot of emphasis on unit tests instead of integration tests, or even just (primarily) test the back end instead of bothering with front end tests, due to how much harder they can be to write, depending on the codebase.
[deleted]
"testing your types"
If you find yourself thinking you need to test your types, you've taken a wrong turn somewhere.
If you find yourself thinking you need to test your types, you've taken a wrong turn somewhere.
Does it mean that languages should prohibit type-level programming (or type-valued functions), like in Idris?
It most certainly does not.
It means that types are not subject to tests much like you don't test your tests.
types / tests are usually written in a denominational way and keeps the operational semantics of the program in check.
It means that types are not subject to tests much like you don't test your tests.
types / tests are usually written in a denominational way and keeps the operational semantics of the program in check.
In Idris, you've typed your types. Much easier to deal with.
>In Idris, you've typed your types.
I've always typed not only my types, but functions, programs, tests, everything, in every language I've ever coded in.
OK, sometimes I first write stuff (in pseudocode, or at least bad syntax) on paper first, but in the end I always type it into a code editor on the computer. Type type type, clickety click click clack...
I've always typed not only my types, but functions, programs, tests, everything, in every language I've ever coded in.
OK, sometimes I first write stuff (in pseudocode, or at least bad syntax) on paper first, but in the end I always type it into a code editor on the computer. Type type type, clickety click click clack...
I just wrote and published a library and CLI (for migrating postgres databases) to NPM using Typescript ( https://npmjs.com/package/nomadic ).
The Typescript itself, coupled with jest TDD made development very pleasant. The hardest part for me was figuring out how to publish the types so when a user installs it using yarn install, they get Intellisense. I think I did a poor job of it, as in the end I just published the source code. Even though I prefer when npm libraries do this ( as I can inspect the source in my editor easily ), I know the pros don't do that. If anyone wants to take a look and knows how to solve this type publishing, I'd be very appreciative.
The Typescript itself, coupled with jest TDD made development very pleasant. The hardest part for me was figuring out how to publish the types so when a user installs it using yarn install, they get Intellisense. I think I did a poor job of it, as in the end I just published the source code. Even though I prefer when npm libraries do this ( as I can inspect the source in my editor easily ), I know the pros don't do that. If anyone wants to take a look and knows how to solve this type publishing, I'd be very appreciative.
Glancing at it very quickly via Unpkg, I _think_ you really just need to fix the broken `types` path reference in `package.json`.
Right now, your `dist` folder has `dist/index.d.ts` available, but `package.json` points to:
Right now, your `dist` folder has `dist/index.d.ts` available, but `package.json` points to:
"types": "./lib/index.ts"
"types": "./dist/index.d.ts"I'm not a ts/js person but
> we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers
this is exactly the point of a library in any language. The library authors do the heavy lifting precisely so that the end-users don't have to!
And again, this isn't my domain, but when I read stuff like > How do library developers debug their highly dynamic and heavy use of conditional types, overloads? or > Because types can be generated from other types and the highly dynamic nature of those types, there's a new class of tests that are required for any serious typescript project: testing your types. or > I spend more time tweaking types than I do writing library code. what I'm thinking is "Doctor, it hurts when I do this".
this is exactly the point of a library in any language. The library authors do the heavy lifting precisely so that the end-users don't have to!
And again, this isn't my domain, but when I read stuff like > How do library developers debug their highly dynamic and heavy use of conditional types, overloads? or > Because types can be generated from other types and the highly dynamic nature of those types, there's a new class of tests that are required for any serious typescript project: testing your types. or > I spend more time tweaking types than I do writing library code. what I'm thinking is "Doctor, it hurts when I do this".
>In effect, we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers. This places a huge burden on us to be experts with how typescript works.
Interesting, I had never thought of this tension, but I think I disagree with the author and think this is a good tradeoff. We shouldn't assume all developers are library developers, most beginner developers for example don't write libraries or shouldn't. I think it's actually good to force competence in the library author domain (within reason), since they can abstract away this pesky complexity (the point of any good library).
I like this new mental model, but I still agree with the author that typescript is too hard to work with and developer experience with it has a ways to go.
Interesting, I had never thought of this tension, but I think I disagree with the author and think this is a good tradeoff. We shouldn't assume all developers are library developers, most beginner developers for example don't write libraries or shouldn't. I think it's actually good to force competence in the library author domain (within reason), since they can abstract away this pesky complexity (the point of any good library).
I like this new mental model, but I still agree with the author that typescript is too hard to work with and developer experience with it has a ways to go.
TLDR: I write and maintain several good-sized typescript libraries so I write library types all the time. In fact, I'm writing them right now! TypeScript is what makes them really fun to use. They infer everything they can and have very high levels of safety and passthrough while still allowing for composition and extension at the framework-adapter and library level. I will never consider writing another OSS tool in the JS ecosystem without ensuring the typescript experience is the best I can offer.
That said...
I've learned that "library" types might not be the best way to talk about these concepts. What we're really talking about here are types that are complex/advanced enough to force you to venture beyond the primitive building blocs in the TS docs and into existing open source solutions that have trail-blazed more advanced use-cases. It took me only a few weeks to get comfortable with common TS, but at least a year to feel dangerous enough to write more advanced TS. I'm on year 3 now and I am still learning/forgetting so much about it.
I agree that: - Advanced types and their concepts are difficult to learn. - There is limited documentation on how to create/use them. - They can sometimes be difficult to reason about, mainly due to the limited syntax TS offers around advanced concepts.
On the the positive: - They can be learned with practice. - There is plenty of OSS out there to learn from - Once you learn them, you start to think differently about TS as a language instead of annotations
I wish there were better features/syntax support for: - Optional generics - Higher-order generics / Polymorphic generics (basically higher-order functions, but for types) - More built-ins (like ts-toolbelt, type-fest, etc)
I think this ramp of difficulty with advanced TS types is fine for the most part. Library authors have always carried way more of a burden than devs at the edge, even during runtime to ensure things like size, performance, flexibility, etc. TS is just another facet that is becoming more an expectation every day.
At the end of the day, a library dev gets to choose what level of investment they'll put into great types for their library. If they can pull it off, their tool will likely provide a measurably better developer experience.
That's my goal for my libraries, so choosing to go all-in on advanced TS is now a no-brainer.
Anywho, good luck!
That said...
I've learned that "library" types might not be the best way to talk about these concepts. What we're really talking about here are types that are complex/advanced enough to force you to venture beyond the primitive building blocs in the TS docs and into existing open source solutions that have trail-blazed more advanced use-cases. It took me only a few weeks to get comfortable with common TS, but at least a year to feel dangerous enough to write more advanced TS. I'm on year 3 now and I am still learning/forgetting so much about it.
I agree that: - Advanced types and their concepts are difficult to learn. - There is limited documentation on how to create/use them. - They can sometimes be difficult to reason about, mainly due to the limited syntax TS offers around advanced concepts.
On the the positive: - They can be learned with practice. - There is plenty of OSS out there to learn from - Once you learn them, you start to think differently about TS as a language instead of annotations
I wish there were better features/syntax support for: - Optional generics - Higher-order generics / Polymorphic generics (basically higher-order functions, but for types) - More built-ins (like ts-toolbelt, type-fest, etc)
I think this ramp of difficulty with advanced TS types is fine for the most part. Library authors have always carried way more of a burden than devs at the edge, even during runtime to ensure things like size, performance, flexibility, etc. TS is just another facet that is becoming more an expectation every day.
At the end of the day, a library dev gets to choose what level of investment they'll put into great types for their library. If they can pull it off, their tool will likely provide a measurably better developer experience.
That's my goal for my libraries, so choosing to go all-in on advanced TS is now a no-brainer.
Anywho, good luck!
“In effect, we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers.”
For me, this should be a principle goal of someone writing a library. A primary function should be to shift complexity into the library, and allow other developers to not have to worry about it.
For me, this should be a principle goal of someone writing a library. A primary function should be to shift complexity into the library, and allow other developers to not have to worry about it.
IME...
> I spend more time tweaking types [to gain confidence that my code is actually doing what it should] than I do writing library code[, which would probably be wrong, and saving time not having to write type-based tests].
I don't know what to say here; I've had types save me from a lot of blunders. If nothing else it moves my debugging/fixing time "left" in the timeline before it hits production. Maybe that prevents me from getting code out as quickly, maybe not since there are then that many tests I don't have to write.
Maybe he's just a way better dev than me too.
> I spend more time tweaking types [to gain confidence that my code is actually doing what it should] than I do writing library code[, which would probably be wrong, and saving time not having to write type-based tests].
I don't know what to say here; I've had types save me from a lot of blunders. If nothing else it moves my debugging/fixing time "left" in the timeline before it hits production. Maybe that prevents me from getting code out as quickly, maybe not since there are then that many tests I don't have to write.
Maybe he's just a way better dev than me too.
| How do library developers debug their highly dynamic and heavy use of conditional types, overloads?
Don’t write that code because it’s impossible to debug and test? If typescript yields pain here, it’s appropriately felt imo.
Don’t write that code because it’s impossible to debug and test? If typescript yields pain here, it’s appropriately felt imo.
Like many here, I love typescript for library writing, at least internally. I've not made any big npm packages, so not sure how that would do, but I imagine I'd like it a lot too.
What I hate is getting the build system set up to generate the right combination of .js/.d.ts files to work with the build system of whatever I'm using it in, particularly for libraries that use any form of preact/tsx files. I must be seriously missing something, but after 5 years as a node/react developer I still suck at making build pipelines for new projects.
What I hate is getting the build system set up to generate the right combination of .js/.d.ts files to work with the build system of whatever I'm using it in, particularly for libraries that use any form of preact/tsx files. I must be seriously missing something, but after 5 years as a node/react developer I still suck at making build pipelines for new projects.
> Types add a lot of code to your library. When first attempting to contribute to a project, one must grok the application logic as well as the type logic.
To me types are very welcome. It's much easier to grok a function when I can see a type interface for it. Some libs do this better than others. Some libs have types as an after thought and you get confronted with something like:
``` export type Parameters = {[key: string]: any} ```
which is basically a giant FU and is as helpful as no type. But to me, well maintained type api is a great boon to both contributors and end developers.
To me types are very welcome. It's much easier to grok a function when I can see a type interface for it. Some libs do this better than others. Some libs have types as an after thought and you get confronted with something like:
``` export type Parameters = {[key: string]: any} ```
which is basically a giant FU and is as helpful as no type. But to me, well maintained type api is a great boon to both contributors and end developers.
Heh, it's amusing to see Redux Toolkit referenced here. I'm one of the two main RTK maintainers. My co-maintainer Lenz Weber is responsible for most of our TS type wizardry.
Agreed that writing TS types for libs can be a pain. I actually did a talk recently on "Lessons Learned Maintaining TS Libraries" [0], where I talked about some of the techniques we used, and some possible TS changes that would be helpful for us as maintainers.
As one recent example, TS made a change in a 4.8 pre-alpha that broke RTK's `createSlice` types. Lenz tried to come up with a fix, couldn't, and had to add a workaround to check what TS version is being used and specifically use an altered type. Since there _isn't_ a good way to know what TS version is being used, Lenz resorted to hacking together a new package that abuses the `typesVersions` property to define a different TS type for _every_ TS major+minor version combo, and then used that to decide what the RTK type should look like conditionally [1].
Another pain point is debugging type transformations. I reworked the Reselect types in 4.1.x to do a much better job of inferring the argument types for the final selector, based on the intersection of all the input selector arguments. This ended up as a monstrous type that does a types-level map + transpose + intersection [2]. It took me weeks to get this working right, and I frequently had to break it down into multiple small intermediate types to see how TS was processing each step.
I know that someone on Twitter was recently working on an alternate TS type-checker based on bytecode, and they said they had some kind of a working types-level debugger [3]. Having something like that officially, where I could see each step of how TS was transforming the types, would be _hugely_ valuable.
There's a couple folks like AndaristRake who are able to dig into the internals of the TS compiler itself to trace how it's interpreting the types. I definitely don't have that ability :)
[0] https://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/2022/05/presentations-ts-l...
[1] https://github.com/reduxjs/redux-toolkit/pull/2547
[2] https://github.com/reduxjs/reselect/blob/v4.1.5/src/types.ts...
[3] https://twitter.com/MarcJSchmidt/status/1539787500788613120
Agreed that writing TS types for libs can be a pain. I actually did a talk recently on "Lessons Learned Maintaining TS Libraries" [0], where I talked about some of the techniques we used, and some possible TS changes that would be helpful for us as maintainers.
As one recent example, TS made a change in a 4.8 pre-alpha that broke RTK's `createSlice` types. Lenz tried to come up with a fix, couldn't, and had to add a workaround to check what TS version is being used and specifically use an altered type. Since there _isn't_ a good way to know what TS version is being used, Lenz resorted to hacking together a new package that abuses the `typesVersions` property to define a different TS type for _every_ TS major+minor version combo, and then used that to decide what the RTK type should look like conditionally [1].
Another pain point is debugging type transformations. I reworked the Reselect types in 4.1.x to do a much better job of inferring the argument types for the final selector, based on the intersection of all the input selector arguments. This ended up as a monstrous type that does a types-level map + transpose + intersection [2]. It took me weeks to get this working right, and I frequently had to break it down into multiple small intermediate types to see how TS was processing each step.
I know that someone on Twitter was recently working on an alternate TS type-checker based on bytecode, and they said they had some kind of a working types-level debugger [3]. Having something like that officially, where I could see each step of how TS was transforming the types, would be _hugely_ valuable.
There's a couple folks like AndaristRake who are able to dig into the internals of the TS compiler itself to trace how it's interpreting the types. I definitely don't have that ability :)
[0] https://blog.isquaredsoftware.com/2022/05/presentations-ts-l...
[1] https://github.com/reduxjs/redux-toolkit/pull/2547
[2] https://github.com/reduxjs/reselect/blob/v4.1.5/src/types.ts...
[3] https://twitter.com/MarcJSchmidt/status/1539787500788613120
I agree wholeheartedly that debugging types is very difficult. The best we have is hovering our mouse over the definition to see what type was created from the definition. Obviously not great.
Also, debugging type differences with deeply nested objects (like what happens with graphql schemas) can be hugely painful. You need to copy the error message to its own file (since the errors can be huge) and debug what specific piece failed.
I do feel the Typescript documentation is lacking and the only way to get better is to read open source projects to see how others have done it… which is only helpful when they’ve solved the exact problem you’re looking for.
It’d be great to have a recipe book of common advanced typescript manipulations and how to compose them together.
Also, debugging type differences with deeply nested objects (like what happens with graphql schemas) can be hugely painful. You need to copy the error message to its own file (since the errors can be huge) and debug what specific piece failed.
I do feel the Typescript documentation is lacking and the only way to get better is to read open source projects to see how others have done it… which is only helpful when they’ve solved the exact problem you’re looking for.
It’d be great to have a recipe book of common advanced typescript manipulations and how to compose them together.
> testing types
Right, this happens in any language where you are writing type lambdas or functions at type level, which makes sense actually. We've been doing this in C++ as well for years...
On another note, Redux is fundamentally a bad experience in typescript because the action type must extend from `AnyAction`, so it poisons the well.
What we need is a first-class typescript state container with a rigid API, even better would be first-class enums and pattern matching...
Writing generators isn't fun in typescript, so yes I imagine redux-saga would be painful.
Right, this happens in any language where you are writing type lambdas or functions at type level, which makes sense actually. We've been doing this in C++ as well for years...
On another note, Redux is fundamentally a bad experience in typescript because the action type must extend from `AnyAction`, so it poisons the well.
What we need is a first-class typescript state container with a rigid API, even better would be first-class enums and pattern matching...
Writing generators isn't fun in typescript, so yes I imagine redux-saga would be painful.
Note that our official Redux Toolkit package, linked in the article, has complex TS types specifically _because_ we work to simplify the TS usage experience for our users.
Here's all you need to do as a typical Redux app developer to get started using Redux Toolkit with TypeScript:
- https://redux.js.org/tutorials/typescript-quick-start
Note that we specifically tell you to use a `PayloadAction<MyPayloadHere>` type, which results in well-typed reducers and automatically generates strongly-typed action creators to match.
If you're using Redux at all, you _should_ be using Redux Toolkit to write your Redux logic.
Here's all you need to do as a typical Redux app developer to get started using Redux Toolkit with TypeScript:
- https://redux.js.org/tutorials/typescript-quick-start
Note that we specifically tell you to use a `PayloadAction<MyPayloadHere>` type, which results in well-typed reducers and automatically generates strongly-typed action creators to match.
If you're using Redux at all, you _should_ be using Redux Toolkit to write your Redux logic.
There are two main reasons I see types become complex:
First, and most related to TypeScript, is that the library predates TypeScript and the dynamic nature of JS made it easy to create much too complex interfaces.
Second is when a library is very frameworky rather than a less opinionated library (I see this sometimes in Sorbet types written by my colleagues, even for greenfield stuff).
Don’t want to make a value judgement on either, but it’s certainly possible to write useful libraries with simple types. Look at golang.
First, and most related to TypeScript, is that the library predates TypeScript and the dynamic nature of JS made it easy to create much too complex interfaces.
Second is when a library is very frameworky rather than a less opinionated library (I see this sometimes in Sorbet types written by my colleagues, even for greenfield stuff).
Don’t want to make a value judgement on either, but it’s certainly possible to write useful libraries with simple types. Look at golang.
Libraries are where the complexity should be. It it's used by 200 people, it makes sense to put the work in there, rather than duplicate it 200 times.
Library developers obviously deserve nice things too, but that is why they should be getting paid for their work. If TypeScript is better for users(I think it is, although I would prefer we move the whole world to Dart natively with no compile step....), then it helps you make a better product.
Which you should be getting paid for, as many FOSS devs are.
Library developers obviously deserve nice things too, but that is why they should be getting paid for their work. If TypeScript is better for users(I think it is, although I would prefer we move the whole world to Dart natively with no compile step....), then it helps you make a better product.
Which you should be getting paid for, as many FOSS devs are.
> Why are there no guides on the typescript site about library developers? What about a guide on the recommended tools for a library developer?
I have no idea what this means. What are "tools for a library developer"?
> I think the underlying assumption here is that there is no difference between a library developer and an end-developer, which I reject.
Expansion on why they reject this would be of interest here. I'm a library developer - I'm not aware of any differences.
I have no idea what this means. What are "tools for a library developer"?
> I think the underlying assumption here is that there is no difference between a library developer and an end-developer, which I reject.
Expansion on why they reject this would be of interest here. I'm a library developer - I'm not aware of any differences.
> I think the underlying assumption here is that there is no difference between a library developer and an end-developer, which I reject.
There is - developing good libraries requires a much higher standard than developing good frontends.
> In effect, we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers. This places a huge burden on us to be experts with how typescript works.
That is the main purpose of libraries: to take work away from the user of it.
There is - developing good libraries requires a much higher standard than developing good frontends.
> In effect, we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers. This places a huge burden on us to be experts with how typescript works.
That is the main purpose of libraries: to take work away from the user of it.
For me I use and rely on types a lot. A good type system means I write code in less time and effort, otherwise I wind up with runtime type errors and sometimes comment in my types anyways.
So I have the opposite problem: as a library user, JavaScript is terrible for me, because even when I use TypeScript I get runtime type errors from bad type declarations or even just holes in the TypeScript type system.
So I have the opposite problem: as a library user, JavaScript is terrible for me, because even when I use TypeScript I get runtime type errors from bad type declarations or even just holes in the TypeScript type system.
I read the article as "I'm not experienced with TS yet and learning is not as easy as not having to learn something" :) Good news is that it will improve as you use it ^^
I don't get the point at all of the difference between app and library developpers. Any app of non trivial size will have some kind of internal library and thus any app developer is a library developper too.
I don't get the point at all of the difference between app and library developpers. Any app of non trivial size will have some kind of internal library and thus any app developer is a library developper too.
This hasn’t been my experience, certainly not in 2022 with all the progress typescript tooling has made. Testing is annoying to set up the first time but once you have it working you barely ever have to mess with it.
As a library author myself I struggled a lot more with monorepo management and changelogs/publishing but tools like turbo/nx/changesets have really helped here.
As a library author myself I struggled a lot more with monorepo management and changelogs/publishing but tools like turbo/nx/changesets have really helped here.
As someone who has written libraries int other languages as well I have to say that library development in Typescript is awesome. Library development in general sucks. You just have to do a lot more things compared to product development, it is not Typescript's fault.
Also, I've never had to use conditional types in my life. I think you're over-complicating things.
Also, I've never had to use conditional types in my life. I think you're over-complicating things.
> It's pretty common in style guides to never nest ternaries. In typescript, that's the only way to narrow types based on other types. It's a mess!
I really wish there was a kind of type builder where I can use ifs and switches to build complex types. For me that would already take away a lot of the pain of maintaining and writing complex types.
I really wish there was a kind of type builder where I can use ifs and switches to build complex types. For me that would already take away a lot of the pain of maintaining and writing complex types.
I don't have written much TS but the author's experience is exactly what I felt while writing TS. The bolted on "gradual" type system makes typing harden then even dependently typed languages I have used. I honestly believe TS has done irrecoverable damage to the perception of types to millions of web developers.
> There are a lot of reasons why typescript sucks for library developers, but at the end of the day it reduces developer productivity. In effect, we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers.
Yes. The point of making a library is almost entirely to take the complexity load from developers.
Yes. The point of making a library is almost entirely to take the complexity load from developers.
There is a good reason why dynamically typed languages have such large and vibrant library ecosystems compared to statically typed languages... I've been saying stuff like this for years. My main problem with TS is that it tries too hard to shove itself down everyone's throats and just seems to be destroying open source along the way.
All these complex (albeit well-defined) interfaces add friction between libraries.
Imagine that you're an electrician and your job is to change a lightbulb... Do you really want to have a meeting with the central standards committee and the lightbulb manufacturer in order to be able to change that lightculb or you just want to screw it in and be done with it?
The core problem with these type systems is that they try to create a globally-consistent universe where all the different modules/libraries agree about what all the different types which might exist in the actual universe are but somehow they never manage to get there; or if they get close, they end up extremely rigid and require a lot more effort to maintain (E.g. Java).
All these complex (albeit well-defined) interfaces add friction between libraries.
Imagine that you're an electrician and your job is to change a lightbulb... Do you really want to have a meeting with the central standards committee and the lightbulb manufacturer in order to be able to change that lightculb or you just want to screw it in and be done with it?
The core problem with these type systems is that they try to create a globally-consistent universe where all the different modules/libraries agree about what all the different types which might exist in the actual universe are but somehow they never manage to get there; or if they get close, they end up extremely rigid and require a lot more effort to maintain (E.g. Java).
I think you're conflating object-orientation with algebraic type systems (which java doesn't have).
In Java, there seems to be an interface for every concept and the way they are used is quite restrictive in a harmful way. For example, a URL isn't merely a string which is copied/cloned (by value) each time it gets passed to a new function, there is an actual URL instance and you are encouraged to pass around references of it. This type of design can cause issues if multiple modules end up holding a reference to the same instance and try to modify it (in conflicting ways). It just encourages poor design IMO. It requires more effort (more friction) to avoid bad, tightly coupled architecture.
The examples they provide from Redux are insane, and they’re saying it’s “types done right”?
What is it about TypeScript that you get these insanely verbose types? I have never seen anything remotely like this in other typed languages e.g Java. Maybe lack of overloaded functions?
Hi, I'm a Redux maintainer.
As my co-maintainer Lenz Weber just said on Twitter:
> No other language I know allows us library authors to have that much influence on autocomplete and dev experience. We could all just ship mediocre types with some added runtime exceptions, like we are forced to do in other languages - but we see this opportunity and we go for it. We are not forced to do that, it's the same masochistic drive that makes us write the lib in the first place.
We've deliberately done a lot of work internally to make sure that our end users _don't_ have to write very complex types in their app code.
As I mentioned in another comment, the linked `createAction` example is specifically representing an object that looks like `{type: string, payload?, meta?, error?}`, and strongly typing the possible combinations of which fields exist.
The net result here is that depending on how you've defined your reducer and action, when you type `action.` in the editor, you'll get correct autocomplete listing exactly which fields _do_ exist based on this specific action type.
Normal app code won't have to write anything like those types.
As my co-maintainer Lenz Weber just said on Twitter:
> No other language I know allows us library authors to have that much influence on autocomplete and dev experience. We could all just ship mediocre types with some added runtime exceptions, like we are forced to do in other languages - but we see this opportunity and we go for it. We are not forced to do that, it's the same masochistic drive that makes us write the lib in the first place.
We've deliberately done a lot of work internally to make sure that our end users _don't_ have to write very complex types in their app code.
As I mentioned in another comment, the linked `createAction` example is specifically representing an object that looks like `{type: string, payload?, meta?, error?}`, and strongly typing the possible combinations of which fields exist.
The net result here is that depending on how you've defined your reducer and action, when you type `action.` in the editor, you'll get correct autocomplete listing exactly which fields _do_ exist based on this specific action type.
Normal app code won't have to write anything like those types.
In something like Java this could have been solved with method overloading, e.g:
ActionWithPayloadAndError createAction(String, Payload, Error)
If I understand correctly, overloading doesn’t exist in TS.
ActionWithPayloadAndError createAction(String, Payload, Error)
If I understand correctly, overloading doesn’t exist in TS.
If your library was built without thinking about types, yeah it'll be ugly when you add them after.
I just don't understand why library developers must make extremely complex APIs then. Does it really need to be so dynamic? MaterialUI v4 types where so huge it slowed down all my type checking, rendering typescript productivity useless.
> library developers
> This places a huge burden on us to be experts with how typescript works.
Yes, exactly. That's how it is supposed to be. You need to have expertise in the programming language to be able to effectively develop libraries other developers will use.
> This places a huge burden on us to be experts with how typescript works.
Yes, exactly. That's how it is supposed to be. You need to have expertise in the programming language to be able to effectively develop libraries other developers will use.
More people commenting here need to pick up on this; this is how it's supposed to be.
The author also mentions:
> In effect, we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers.
This is not a valid complaint. This is obvious and self-evident; and also true for any lib developer in any language - you can't avoid it. Libraries exist to abstract away complex logic so those devs consuming the library don't have to worry about writing their own implementation - an app can delegate functionality to a library and this has the benefit of reducing the app's maintenance burden and speed up dev time by re-using another developer's work. And for lib devs, this inevitably requires they spend effort to make their library easier to use.
The author also mentions:
> In effect, we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers.
This is not a valid complaint. This is obvious and self-evident; and also true for any lib developer in any language - you can't avoid it. Libraries exist to abstract away complex logic so those devs consuming the library don't have to worry about writing their own implementation - an app can delegate functionality to a library and this has the benefit of reducing the app's maintenance burden and speed up dev time by re-using another developer's work. And for lib devs, this inevitably requires they spend effort to make their library easier to use.
The TypeScript's team decision to ship breaking changes in minor releases surely doesn't help library authors.
Breaking changes are introduced way too often and the compiler can't output backwards-compatible types.
Breaking changes are introduced way too often and the compiler can't output backwards-compatible types.
This sounds like someone who is trying to write Javascript libraries instead of Typescript libraries.
While Javascript has nothing to do with Java, the same cannot be said for Typescript and types...
While Javascript has nothing to do with Java, the same cannot be said for Typescript and types...
Terrible as opposed/compared to what?
Maybe a language with better type guarantees would be better suited for library developers; but if the alternative is plain javascript, then no. Just no.
Maybe a language with better type guarantees would be better suited for library developers; but if the alternative is plain javascript, then no. Just no.
I have a similar essay entitled "Why Static Languages Suffer From Complexity" [1]. I don't deal with TypeScript, so it's up to you whether the essay relates to it or not. Basically, the idea is that languages make type-level and value-level programming different in surface, while they're (or at least can be) the same. From hence we have type-level astronautics that boggles library developers' minds.
[1] https://hirrolot.github.io/posts/why-static-languages-suffer...
[1] https://hirrolot.github.io/posts/why-static-languages-suffer...
Once Rust finishes up the DOM interface types effort we can just write everything in Rust, which is well documented and great for library authors.
I agree that there's much more type wrangling when developing a library vs. typing regular app code. I don't mind it all though.
I could not disagree more. I absolutely love using TypeScript for the libraries that I write and maintain.
> There's great documentation and blogs for end-developers but there's very little for library-developers
Because there isn't a difference. I write my applications the same way that I write libraries. TypeScript gives you the flexibility to do that as well. If you want to use looser types in your apps and in your libraries, go right ahead. Some people may want more accurate types coming from your library. They'll either improve them or pick something else. You aren't required to appease them. I know that you stated that you reject this notion but just now I was working on a relatively straightforward React app and I've got a number of places where I'm doing slightly more advanced types. If you aren't, you're probably leaning on library developers to do that for you which is fine but that's a choice.
> How do library developers debug their highly dynamic and heavy use of conditional types, overloads?
I literally just make a number of assignments and hover over the types to verify that they look right. There are better ways of testing these that I'll get to later.
> I spend a decent amount of time in the redux world so redux-toolkit is a great library to see how types are done
Redux is an inherently very dynamic system. It's dynamic by design. Capturing all of that dynamism in a strict system is _hard._ `redux-toolkit` and related codebases are not representative of the normal struggles for library developers. Additionally, see point 1 about how you can choose how good your types are. It would be technically correct for `createAction` to just return
> It's pretty common in style guides to never nest ternaries. In typescript, that's the only way to narrow types based on other types
I'm always open to syntactic improvements. If someone finds a way to make the type syntax simpler without conflicting with existing JS syntax then I will be very happy. That being said, the syntax isn't so inscrutable as to be unusable. It just takes some getting used to.
> It's not enough to test your types against the latest version of the typescript compiler either, you also need to test against previous versions
I disagree. The TypeScript team does a very good job of keeping things backwards compatible. In the rare case that they don't, your library is welcome to state that they only support certain versions of TypeScript. This is a pretty standard problem with any sort of dependency. Nothing about TypeScript makes this particularly difficult. If you are going the extra mile to check multiple versions of TypeScript then you're awesome.
> This new class of tests are in their infancy and there's a baron wasteland of tools that are now deprecated or partially maintained
My opinion: a lot of these tools become unmaintained because they aren't necessary. Testing types is pretty easy. Include these two functions and you're golden.
If you're running in to this then those people are doing it wrong. Types should make impossible states impossible and do their best to make the application logic the only thing that is possible. If you understand the application logic, you understand the type logic. They're one and the same.
> I shouldn't have to read the typescript compiler source code in order to figure out why it's resolving a piece of my code to a specific type.
You shouldn't and you don't. Better documentation is always better though and I agree that more in-depth first-party documentation would be great.
[1]: https://millsp.github.io/ts-toolbelt/modules/any_compute.htm...
> There's great documentation and blogs for end-developers but there's very little for library-developers
Because there isn't a difference. I write my applications the same way that I write libraries. TypeScript gives you the flexibility to do that as well. If you want to use looser types in your apps and in your libraries, go right ahead. Some people may want more accurate types coming from your library. They'll either improve them or pick something else. You aren't required to appease them. I know that you stated that you reject this notion but just now I was working on a relatively straightforward React app and I've got a number of places where I'm doing slightly more advanced types. If you aren't, you're probably leaning on library developers to do that for you which is fine but that's a choice.
> How do library developers debug their highly dynamic and heavy use of conditional types, overloads?
I literally just make a number of assignments and hover over the types to verify that they look right. There are better ways of testing these that I'll get to later.
// Hovering over this will either show what I want or not
type ComplexFoo = ToComplexType<Foo>
> I spend a decent amount of time in the redux world so redux-toolkit is a great library to see how types are done
Redux is an inherently very dynamic system. It's dynamic by design. Capturing all of that dynamism in a strict system is _hard._ `redux-toolkit` and related codebases are not representative of the normal struggles for library developers. Additionally, see point 1 about how you can choose how good your types are. It would be technically correct for `createAction` to just return
interface Action {
type: string
payload: unknown
}
> It's pretty common in style guides to never nest ternaries. In typescript, that's the only way to narrow types based on other types
I'm always open to syntactic improvements. If someone finds a way to make the type syntax simpler without conflicting with existing JS syntax then I will be very happy. That being said, the syntax isn't so inscrutable as to be unusable. It just takes some getting used to.
> It's not enough to test your types against the latest version of the typescript compiler either, you also need to test against previous versions
I disagree. The TypeScript team does a very good job of keeping things backwards compatible. In the rare case that they don't, your library is welcome to state that they only support certain versions of TypeScript. This is a pretty standard problem with any sort of dependency. Nothing about TypeScript makes this particularly difficult. If you are going the extra mile to check multiple versions of TypeScript then you're awesome.
> This new class of tests are in their infancy and there's a baron wasteland of tools that are now deprecated or partially maintained
My opinion: a lot of these tools become unmaintained because they aren't necessary. Testing types is pretty easy. Include these two functions and you're golden.
function generateType<TReturn>(): TReturn {
return null as unknown as TReturn
}
function assertType<TExpected>(value: TExpected) {}
assertType<Expected>(generateType<ComplexThing<number>>)
If you're running in to this then those people are doing it wrong. Types should make impossible states impossible and do their best to make the application logic the only thing that is possible. If you understand the application logic, you understand the type logic. They're one and the same.
> I shouldn't have to read the typescript compiler source code in order to figure out why it's resolving a piece of my code to a specific type.
You shouldn't and you don't. Better documentation is always better though and I agree that more in-depth first-party documentation would be great.
[1]: https://millsp.github.io/ts-toolbelt/modules/any_compute.htm...
"we are shifting complexity from end-developers to library developers"
that is the exact reason why I use external libraries.
that is the exact reason why I use external libraries.
"to spend less time making tsc happy" signed!
I feel i spent more time with that than with the development of the code ;-)
I feel i spent more time with that than with the development of the code ;-)
[deleted]
[deleted]
TS is one of the biggest fish on my skip-list
Even better: because of TypeScript's many known (and unfixable) soundness bugs, adding types doesn't even guarantee that there will be no type errors at runtime.
[deleted]
"I don't know how to make my library typesafe so everyone else is the problem".
It's a fucking boring topic that has been done to death since 2012. Get this deleted guys.
It's a fucking boring topic that has been done to death since 2012. Get this deleted guys.
Everything in this article is true. As you can see by the comments in this thread, saying "I love TypeScript" is not enough to please the TypeScript cult. Nothing but complete devotion is required. You can say "it has its flaws" but don't mention them, just say that phrase to pretend you aren't biased.
The comments in this thread say that the way you are writing TypeScript is wrong. What they are advocating for is essentially turning TypeScript into Java in terms of its style. This is what good TypeScript codebases end up looking like. They don't look like JavaScript. You could take all of the type information out and they still wouldn't look like JavaScript.
I think that when people find that their ex-JavaScript, now TypeScript codebases have become Java codebases, many of them will realise they don't really like TypeScript anymore. If they are the people that said "You aren't professional if you don't use TypeScript", etc, then they are not welcome back into the JavaScript cult. If they are not one of those people, they must profess their hatred of TypeScript, and then we will let them back in.
Anyway, no matter what, you still have to work with the native APIs and so on, which just don't work with TypeScript. Take Web Components for example. You create a web component by defining a class, but you never instantiate the class yourself. You use document.createElement('my-component'). Good luck typing that. Good luck typing proxies.
I hate TypeScript.
The comments in this thread say that the way you are writing TypeScript is wrong. What they are advocating for is essentially turning TypeScript into Java in terms of its style. This is what good TypeScript codebases end up looking like. They don't look like JavaScript. You could take all of the type information out and they still wouldn't look like JavaScript.
I think that when people find that their ex-JavaScript, now TypeScript codebases have become Java codebases, many of them will realise they don't really like TypeScript anymore. If they are the people that said "You aren't professional if you don't use TypeScript", etc, then they are not welcome back into the JavaScript cult. If they are not one of those people, they must profess their hatred of TypeScript, and then we will let them back in.
Anyway, no matter what, you still have to work with the native APIs and so on, which just don't work with TypeScript. Take Web Components for example. You create a web component by defining a class, but you never instantiate the class yourself. You use document.createElement('my-component'). Good luck typing that. Good luck typing proxies.
I hate TypeScript.
I wrote a set of React components that gets 46,000 npm downloads a month and typescript is a godsend. My library is a bridge between two heavily popular projects, so my dependency tree is fairly intertwined. The library solves a real user problem and does it efficiently. It isn't totally perfect, but it covers 98% of the use cases.
I wrote comprehensive tests as I developed everything. I have good documentation. I have an example app people can play with. I have codesandboxes. Yes, it was a lot of work, but that's what building products is all about.
I've maintained this library for over 3 years now. I've upgraded it many times as the underlying dependencies have changed. A few times with backwards incompatible changes. I get outside contributors doing great work.
I do releases on a regular basis, without worry, because my test suite is that good and because I know that if the underlying types change, tsc will catch that too. These things have saved me countless hours of work finding bugs and fixing issues.
In other words, I call bullshit on this entire blog post. Ignore it. Typescript is the correct solution. What is the alternative? Just using JS and letting things break without knowing it? Come on.
Learn how to use types. Learn how to use a professional IDE, like IDEA, that shows you what's wrong as you develop. Learn how to write tests. Learn how to use a debugger. These are all things any decent developer should know and practice on a regular basis.