Rails Needs New Governance(davidcel.is)
davidcel.is
Rails Needs New Governance
https://davidcel.is/articles/rails-needs-new-governance
48 comments
Open source software is great and all but I just wish that everyone that disagreed with me wasn’t allowed in.
Are you saying this in defense of DHH? If I were trans, I would feel pretty damn unwelcome about contributing to (or even using) a project whose BDFL is posting in support of a "comedian" who says:
> If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls.
And that's a tweet that DHH agrees with enough to link to in https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64 with the following commentary:
> Most recently, five officers(!) came to arrest comedian Graham Linehan for illicit tweets. When much of the media reports a story like this, it's often without citing the specific words in question, such that the reader might imagine something far worse than what was actually said. So you should actually read the three tweets that landed Linehan in jail, and earned him a legal restraining order against using X. It's grotesque.
> If a trans-identified male is in a female-only space, he is committing a violent, abusive act. Make a scene, call the cops and if all else fails, punch him in the balls.
And that's a tweet that DHH agrees with enough to link to in https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64 with the following commentary:
> Most recently, five officers(!) came to arrest comedian Graham Linehan for illicit tweets. When much of the media reports a story like this, it's often without citing the specific words in question, such that the reader might imagine something far worse than what was actually said. So you should actually read the three tweets that landed Linehan in jail, and earned him a legal restraining order against using X. It's grotesque.
I hate to have to say this, because people seem pretty quick at drawing the wrong conclusions about anyone that disagrees with their very strong opinions, I'm not even saying that what DHH said is in actual support of Linehan, but sometimes acknowledging the right of assholes to say things without having the government come down on them, is not the same thing as being of the same opinion with said assholes.
And while I support everyone's right to boycott personalities that they disagree with, I dislike when that turns into a paternalistic crusade against those people through peer pressuring away anyone involved with them. Shaming other people into doing what you feel is the right thing is equally harmful, in my humble opinion, to whatever harm these personalities might effect onto the wider internet.
And while I support everyone's right to boycott personalities that they disagree with, I dislike when that turns into a paternalistic crusade against those people through peer pressuring away anyone involved with them. Shaming other people into doing what you feel is the right thing is equally harmful, in my humble opinion, to whatever harm these personalities might effect onto the wider internet.
I can't tell whether you're commenting on the author or DHH. At least one of those two people holds a great deal of authority.
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You should be able to work with other people even if they aren't progressive (or right wing, or whatever). Braying "Nazi", "far-right extremist", etc. about pretty conventional mainstream opinions (probably the majority in the United States at this moment) just makes you sound unhinged.
Yeah most of the blog articles the author linked to were very mainstream views that they tried to make sound nefarious. The vast majority of them wouldn’t have been out of place coming from Democratic politicians.
Trying to force the creator of Rails out because he is too centrist is insane.
Trying to force the creator of Rails out because he is too centrist is insane.
We have to rub along with people who have different political views to our own and I strongly agree that people shouldn't be forced out for opinions held that have little to do with the organization in question.
However, I clicked two of those blog links and the second one, on "consent culture" has genuinely upset me a little. And I am personally in no way deviant from his ideal norm, nuclear family with 3 kids. But the underlying message about cultural force "guiding people to the good life" fuck that, that's taking away choice, who is to say what the good life is. And calling having kids divine joy: I love my kids but that phrasing gives me the chills.
I've only previously read business and tech stuff from dhh and then rarely. That does make me reassess him, I'll probably skip reading any commentary from him now.
However, I clicked two of those blog links and the second one, on "consent culture" has genuinely upset me a little. And I am personally in no way deviant from his ideal norm, nuclear family with 3 kids. But the underlying message about cultural force "guiding people to the good life" fuck that, that's taking away choice, who is to say what the good life is. And calling having kids divine joy: I love my kids but that phrasing gives me the chills.
I've only previously read business and tech stuff from dhh and then rarely. That does make me reassess him, I'll probably skip reading any commentary from him now.
I don’t agree with everything or even most of what the man says. I don’t know that I’ve specifically ever heard the phrase divine joy, but similar phrases like children are a gift from God or a blessing from God are extremely common.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Barrack Obama said something similar about children. I do know he called his children the “Great joy of his life”.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Barrack Obama said something similar about children. I do know he called his children the “Great joy of his life”.
I suppose my problem with it is the implied imposition on others. DHH didn't write that his own children are a joy. He wrote that we should be teaching others that children are a divine joy.
Kids are hard work, and they aren't a joy or a gift to everyone. When someone like DHH, who had the resources to take some of the grind of parenthood away, expounds having kids it doesn't come with "and I'll be sharing my wealth to make it easier"
Kids are hard work, and they aren't a joy or a gift to everyone. When someone like DHH, who had the resources to take some of the grind of parenthood away, expounds having kids it doesn't come with "and I'll be sharing my wealth to make it easier"
I looked into it and 37 signals offers 16 weeks fully paid parental leave. I think that’s the definition of sharing his wealth to make it easier.
He also seems to have been a strong advocate for parental leave laws and other structural changes to make it easier to raise children.
He also seems to have been a strong advocate for parental leave laws and other structural changes to make it easier to raise children.
All this drama has me worried. I'm unemployed and I've been doing ruby on rails for most of my career. With all the drama lately, do I need to find a different language or framework to work with?
Edit: Just for clarity, I have used a lot more than ruby outside of work.
Edit: Just for clarity, I have used a lot more than ruby outside of work.
In my career I have been a "Perl programmer", a "Java programmer", a "Python programmer", a "JS programmer"... the common word in all of these titles being "programmer".
The value you bring to a company should be more than your knowledge of a specific syntax and ecosystem. You get paid to solve problems with computers, strive for that.
The value you bring to a company should be more than your knowledge of a specific syntax and ecosystem. You get paid to solve problems with computers, strive for that.
> I've been doing ruby on rails for most of my career. ... do I need to find a different language or framework to work with?
Yes you should be branching out. Politics has nothing to do with why.
Yes you should be branching out. Politics has nothing to do with why.
I feel like the left has forgotten how to build. My recollection of the activism of the 60s and 70s was like hippies building new kinds of anti-consumerist governance structures, and it’s kind of crazy to talk about open source in terms of how much money it costs. Let’s go forth and build something!
So what if he’s right leaning and assertive in his views. Still a good framework, still good direction.
I don’t follow why a difference in politics affects engineering quality.
I don’t follow why a difference in politics affects engineering quality.
People like the author are insufferable. Demanding milquetoastism from everyone they come into contact with. It's so tiresome.
The author can't fork Rails because "the amount of work that goes into maintaining this ecosystem is enormous and expensive."
Rails IS FREE TO USE. If you want to improve test driven development, do the work yourself. Or start a company and dedicate 40% of your extremely well paid engineers time open source code others can use for free.
37signals and Shopify make the decisions because THEY DO THE WORK. I am happy to sit back and free load off of their contributions even if I disagree with DHH and Tobi's political opinions.
Rails IS FREE TO USE. If you want to improve test driven development, do the work yourself. Or start a company and dedicate 40% of your extremely well paid engineers time open source code others can use for free.
37signals and Shopify make the decisions because THEY DO THE WORK. I am happy to sit back and free load off of their contributions even if I disagree with DHH and Tobi's political opinions.
I read the article, and it digs a lot harder into DHH than I think was necessary to make the point, which I still think is a reasonable one.
I was never into Rails (got sucked into Django too early) but I did hang out with the Rails community an awful lot in the beginning.
There was a pretty large migration of diverse communities to Rails in the late 2000s / early 2010s, and they were often of really different mindsets. You had the domain-driven thoughtsworky people, the 37signals-influenced folks, and all sorts of in-betweens and outliers. Rails also influenced how programming communities developed in general; prior to that community, my main "community experiences" involved getting flamed on alt.lang.perl and whatever crusty newsgroups were related to C++.
For a while I was very certain Python had "lost" the web to Rails and Node.
Anyhow, I'm saying all this partially to reflect, and partially because I think there's a great opportunity for another migration. I'm wondering how many of these folks have considered migrating to Elixir; from what I have experienced, the technology is great and has lots of potential, and the community around it feels positive and enterprising.
While I understand that railing (intentional pun) on DHH and Shopify can feel cathartic, at this point it seems helpful to move on for multiple reasons, and the spirit of Elixir feels similar to the spirit of Rails.
I was never into Rails (got sucked into Django too early) but I did hang out with the Rails community an awful lot in the beginning.
There was a pretty large migration of diverse communities to Rails in the late 2000s / early 2010s, and they were often of really different mindsets. You had the domain-driven thoughtsworky people, the 37signals-influenced folks, and all sorts of in-betweens and outliers. Rails also influenced how programming communities developed in general; prior to that community, my main "community experiences" involved getting flamed on alt.lang.perl and whatever crusty newsgroups were related to C++.
For a while I was very certain Python had "lost" the web to Rails and Node.
Anyhow, I'm saying all this partially to reflect, and partially because I think there's a great opportunity for another migration. I'm wondering how many of these folks have considered migrating to Elixir; from what I have experienced, the technology is great and has lots of potential, and the community around it feels positive and enterprising.
While I understand that railing (intentional pun) on DHH and Shopify can feel cathartic, at this point it seems helpful to move on for multiple reasons, and the spirit of Elixir feels similar to the spirit of Rails.
Rails would have become irrelevant long ago if it wasnt for DHH. Especially in recent years he has been doing an enormous amount of stuff to keep Rails relevant and still the top choice for rapidly building businesses with a small team.
I don't agree with him on political matters but that is irrelevant. He's not my senator, he runs an open source project (and does it really well).
I don't agree with him on political matters but that is irrelevant. He's not my senator, he runs an open source project (and does it really well).
He doesn't run an open source project well when there's a substantial brain drain from the ecosystem due to his loudly-expressed worldview being deplorable.
This is like the fallacy of marketers who only measure slight short-term increases in engagement. It's not success if you get a temporary bump of 5% if you also end up pissing off a ton of people who will never come back. Eventually the whole thing craters.
This is like the fallacy of marketers who only measure slight short-term increases in engagement. It's not success if you get a temporary bump of 5% if you also end up pissing off a ton of people who will never come back. Eventually the whole thing craters.
I have met both DHH and Tobi in person several times, and although I don’t know them well they have always been warm, kind, and pleasant to be around. Their contributions to the engineering community have been almost immeasurable. So what you disagree with them personally. Who cares? Do you like ruby? Do you like rails? Are you able to build a career doing something you love? Is that not enough?
If you disagree with things he’s done with Rails that’s one thing. But I would strongly suggest you reconsider the notion that he should be removed from leadership on Rails because of all his personal beliefs.
He’s writing a web framework man (along with thousands of other people who may or not agree with him), he’s not directing your personal life. You should strongly reconsider this blog post. One day, the same sort of ire you’re pointing at him will be pointed at you for no reason other than people disagree with you.
If you disagree with things he’s done with Rails that’s one thing. But I would strongly suggest you reconsider the notion that he should be removed from leadership on Rails because of all his personal beliefs.
He’s writing a web framework man (along with thousands of other people who may or not agree with him), he’s not directing your personal life. You should strongly reconsider this blog post. One day, the same sort of ire you’re pointing at him will be pointed at you for no reason other than people disagree with you.
the Ruby language and interpreter has always horrified me and while I know absolutely nothing about whatever progress has been made in Ruby land, I can't believe after the decades of enormous effort and improvement that has gone into Python that people are still stuck on Ruby. Don't worry, I'm old and irrelevant.
DHH going full mask off MAGA is not surprising at all in retrospect. People have been sounding the alarm about him for years and years.
No need to cause all this drama and taking a piss.
It’s a lot easier to stir up trouble than it is to take responsibility and create something better.
You can fork Rails, create whatever system you want for the leadership and strictly control that there is no rudeness. (from your point of view)
Have a better vision for the code and where it will go next.
Create something much better than any rude anti-intellectual right winger can do.
Right?
It’s a lot easier to stir up trouble than it is to take responsibility and create something better.
You can fork Rails, create whatever system you want for the leadership and strictly control that there is no rudeness. (from your point of view)
Have a better vision for the code and where it will go next.
Create something much better than any rude anti-intellectual right winger can do.
Right?
I talk to so many people on almost a daily basis now who are migrating out of Rails or have already done so. The brain drain problem is massive. DHH has grown a cult of personality that is actually shrinking the overall ecosystem. This is what happens with authoritarians. The "in-crowd" gets louder and louder—at the expense of a diminishing body politic due to increasing disenfranchisement.
I don't know if it's too late for Rails itself to be saved, but we need a robust Ruby ecosystem entirely removed from the RoR framework and we need it yesterday.
I don't know if it's too late for Rails itself to be saved, but we need a robust Ruby ecosystem entirely removed from the RoR framework and we need it yesterday.
What does DHH political views have to do with Ruby or Rails?
Sure dont let one person dominate the discussion though, if indeed he is.
Also noticed some of the hyperlinks are not good summaries of the linked thing. That is all I can say as dont want to start tangent, see if you agree.
Sure dont let one person dominate the discussion though, if indeed he is.
Also noticed some of the hyperlinks are not good summaries of the linked thing. That is all I can say as dont want to start tangent, see if you agree.
I’m super disappointed about this practice of demonizing and mischaracterizing people who care. It’s toxic, and fed by ignorance and unquestioning consumption of one-sided media on insular platforms. The gullible acceptance and regurgitation of false narratives is getting very old.
I mean you can agree or disagree with DHH's politics, however I can see why it should affect our perception of his work on Ruby on Rails.
The article - outside of vague alignment with public figures and a few controversial blog posts - doesn't make any technical points.
The article - outside of vague alignment with public figures and a few controversial blog posts - doesn't make any technical points.
rails is a cult.
DHH isn't a great architect. he was a yung feller with okay ideas. most of those ideas suck in the grand scheme of time.
with modern tooling, the general direction is more confusion than time saving (rails's original major goal)
DHH isn't a great architect. he was a yung feller with okay ideas. most of those ideas suck in the grand scheme of time.
with modern tooling, the general direction is more confusion than time saving (rails's original major goal)
DHH and Tobi are far right? Give me a break!
Tobi's views during recent Canadian elections were extremely public on X. This isn't even something to state as a controversy, geez.
I'm struck by
>...posts from DHH covering a range of far-right talking points... all the way to outright nationalism
which links to DHH saying he's proud to be Danish https://world.hey.com/dhh/national-pride-f7aa1e92
The horror!
>...posts from DHH covering a range of far-right talking points... all the way to outright nationalism
which links to DHH saying he's proud to be Danish https://world.hey.com/dhh/national-pride-f7aa1e92
The horror!
Yea, trying to bring Tobi into this by proxy of Kaz is a stretch. If they want to talk about Kaz, talk about Kaz.
Heh. That’s news to me too
[flagged]
You might need to similarly govern your emotions before posting here.
[deleted]
I think invoking a programmers personal blog or points of view to make a point about project governance is wholly inappropriate.
There is absolutely nothing in the way of technical analysis or suggestions and the post even ends admitting that the author doesn't believe there's a tractable way forward.
What was the point of this? You don't personally like DHH? I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't think this article rises anywhere near a level that could be debated. I can only say "I'm sorry you feel that way."
There is absolutely nothing in the way of technical analysis or suggestions and the post even ends admitting that the author doesn't believe there's a tractable way forward.
What was the point of this? You don't personally like DHH? I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't think this article rises anywhere near a level that could be debated. I can only say "I'm sorry you feel that way."
That's a bold take. The post links to articles that show DHH's full throated hate for:
- Trans people
- Fat people
- People who identify as neurodivergent
And plenty more. Rails governance isn't about reviewing PRs, it's about managing people. And if you show outright disdain (if not hate) for many of those people, how is that affecting your ability to drive the project forward? How much harm are you inflicting on the organization?
This isn't Brendan Eich quietly donating to the Prop 8 campaign, this is much louder. He has an audience. Should I ignore what politicians say on their personal Twitter? Would you trust a school superintendent who posted the same things on their personal blog? I know I certainly wouldn't, and I don't know why an open source project leader would be held to some alternative standard that imagines their role as a purely technical one.
- Trans people
- Fat people
- People who identify as neurodivergent
And plenty more. Rails governance isn't about reviewing PRs, it's about managing people. And if you show outright disdain (if not hate) for many of those people, how is that affecting your ability to drive the project forward? How much harm are you inflicting on the organization?
This isn't Brendan Eich quietly donating to the Prop 8 campaign, this is much louder. He has an audience. Should I ignore what politicians say on their personal Twitter? Would you trust a school superintendent who posted the same things on their personal blog? I know I certainly wouldn't, and I don't know why an open source project leader would be held to some alternative standard that imagines their role as a purely technical one.
> it's about managing people.
That's a big claim for a volunteer project.
> how is that affecting your ability to drive the project forward?
Then the article should have focused on this point. If there is data to be exposed then I'm interested. So far I've only seen catty allegations with nothing concrete to back them up.
> This isn't Brendan Eich quietly donating to the Prop 8 campaign
I similarly don't care. If you simply cannot contribute to a project because you cannot agree with every single decision of it's maintainer then I think you should evaluate your own emotions before attacking others.
> some alternative standard that imagines their role as a purely technical one.
When did this purported standard become recognized or defined? I'm continuing to see a lack of evidence for these claims.
That's a big claim for a volunteer project.
> how is that affecting your ability to drive the project forward?
Then the article should have focused on this point. If there is data to be exposed then I'm interested. So far I've only seen catty allegations with nothing concrete to back them up.
> This isn't Brendan Eich quietly donating to the Prop 8 campaign
I similarly don't care. If you simply cannot contribute to a project because you cannot agree with every single decision of it's maintainer then I think you should evaluate your own emotions before attacking others.
> some alternative standard that imagines their role as a purely technical one.
When did this purported standard become recognized or defined? I'm continuing to see a lack of evidence for these claims.
The post linked to articles on DHH's blog that shows he's an opinionated guy and had no qualms about expressing his views.
So what?
If you're upset with his takes, that's on you to manage your own emotions accordingly.
So what?
If you're upset with his takes, that's on you to manage your own emotions accordingly.
Sure, I'll work on Django instead. That's not the point. Why would the Rails community not care that the guy they're keeping in charge is actively alienating people? Since when is there a shortage of people who would be great leaders
> is actively alienating people?
Are rails contributors required to read DHH's blogs and signal their agreement before a patch is accepted? Then what is "active" about this?
Speaking of workplace standards, if your boss publishes a personal blog you don't like, what is HR going to do for you other than tell you to stop reading it?
Are rails contributors required to read DHH's blogs and signal their agreement before a patch is accepted? Then what is "active" about this?
Speaking of workplace standards, if your boss publishes a personal blog you don't like, what is HR going to do for you other than tell you to stop reading it?