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rajvarkala

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Why outcome-billing makes sense for AI Agents

valmi.io
33 points·by rajvarkala·7 tháng trước·68 comments

Show HN: Built Valmi to bill AI Agents(Open Alternative to Paid.ai, Legacy Zuora

github.com
4 points·by rajvarkala·7 tháng trước·7 comments

Show HN: Valmi: Outcome-Billing and Payments for AI Agents (Open Source SDK)

github.com
2 points·by rajvarkala·7 tháng trước·1 comments

comments

rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
Not sure I follow. But, the first paragraph is interesting.

You are saying, employees stick around if they are given easy tickets, and companies care about passing along easy tickets so warm bodies do not churn.

That will be a big claim.
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
If the AI is never going to be manageable, never trustable, then the whole idea of agentic systems is dumb.

What is the point of an agent running and you don't trust it?

That would be equivalent to calling this whole AI wave useless. May be it is, maybe it is not.
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
Indeed. The whole AI game is predicated on the fact that they can deliver work equivalent to humans in some cases. If that is never going to be the case, then this whole agentic stuff goes belly-up.

The alternative scenario is they get better and do some work really well. That is an interesting territory to focus on.
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
How do you verify AWS charges? By inspecting logs? There goes the arbiter.

I get the binary part. The biggest difference is the subjective component of outcome? However, a tech provider - especially Agent provider - has to bring down the subjective to a quantitative metric when selling. If that cannot be done, I am not sure what we are going to be buying from Agent builders/providers?
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
:)
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
One reason slack exists is because of capacity and utilization, less slack -> higher wait times in peak times.

Is slack intended for Employee welfare? Come on, we are talking corporate here.

The support services are already regimented - L1, L2 etc. I am not a fan of AI either, but it may be a new reality.
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
We just give today's human performance metrics to AI agents.

AI agent developers internally have a metric they are targeting to improve. That itself violates goodhart law.
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
Interesting. Let's take the case of infra spend on AWS. Amazon says you invoked serverless calls 100k times and you are charged for it. How are you trusting them?
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
Understood. So, a better way is to keep him on a retainer? Or let Amazon or Cheaper store do a cost-plus model?

I think that is the core of the argument. It is the risk-sharing between buyer and seller. If sold on outcomes, seller carries all risk. If sold on work-put-in, buyer carries all risk.

Add to that, in some scenarios, outcomes themselves are fuzzy.
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
The price will be what you are willing to pay. No justification required, excepting for fairness (info asymmetry and what else?). It is written by me. Unfunded bootstrapped !!call it dire straits.
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
The agent builder loses contract .. Is this not force enough to make AI worthwhile?
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
:)
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
Of course, there is displacement. Jobs evolve.
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
Yes. Always exists. There neesd to be a secondary mechanism to verify .

But, again, such systems already exist. The folk theorem guarantees this. In a repeated game, people crave reputation.

For instance, seller over-resolving will suffer in the long run, I guess.
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
This is actually what I thought. Although, AI agent developers can capture 1:10 of value delivered - assuming AI agents deliver - but with competiton among Agent builders, the value capture will go down. That is one possibility
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
oversimplified surely, sweeping assumptions....

As much as I hate the assumptions, the worst case scenario is that AI is surely affecting some jobs.
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
I think what you described would be a good definition of outcome. But, Who bills customers that way if you think about software providers? The prevailing models are fixed fee , hourly fee or infra-spend fee.

There is an argument to be made that SaaS tools tap the tool budget whereas AI agents can tap the worker budget of companies.

I am looking to understand more nuances here.
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
Sure, incentives can be gamed.

The same oversight mechanism that applies to humans cannot correct the flaws of AI agents? What do you think is the catch?

I am not saying things are clearly defined in most settings. But my accounting agent ( real person) gets paid only when he files my tax returns.
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
The same applies to human agents as well. Humans are incentivised differently ? How?

The same oversight mechanism that applies to humans cannot correct the flaws of AI agents?
rajvarkala
·7 tháng trước·discuss
Hi alberth,

I'd assume an outcome is a negotiated agreement between buyer and Agent provider.

Think of all the n8n workflows. If we take a simple example of Expense receipt processing workflows, or a lead sourcing workflow, I'd think the outcomes can be counted pretty well. In these cases, successfully entered receipts into ERP or number of Entries captured in salesforce.

I am sure there are cases where outcomes are fuzzy, for instances employer-employee agreement.

But in some cases, for instance, my accounting agent would only get paid if he successfully uploads my tax returns.

Surely not applicable in all cases. But, in cases Where a human is measured on outcomes, the same should be applicable for agents too, I guess