Tesla employee writes of low wages, poor morale; company denies claims(arstechnica.com)
arstechnica.com
Tesla employee writes of low wages, poor morale; company denies claims
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/02/tesla-employee-writes-of-low-wages-poor-morale-company-denies-claims/
65 comments
Ugh, this is just a terrible conflation. And it ignores very real and well-understood union tactics like this. You can be pro- or anti- union all you want but if you don't think unions seek out individuals to use as essentially "seeds" for a union - including paying them - you're woefully naive.
If you don't think we've entered an era where "facts" are invented from thin air without fear of repercussion because the media portrays opposite sides of a demonstrable fact the way it portrays differences in opinion, you're woefully naive.
Recent events may have had a side effect of making honest people need to work harder to prove their claims. But that's not necessarily a bad thing, we could have used more discipline and scrutiny there before the era of fake news anyway.
Recent events may have had a side effect of making honest people need to work harder to prove their claims. But that's not necessarily a bad thing, we could have used more discipline and scrutiny there before the era of fake news anyway.
Facts have been invented in order to push agendas since the dawn of time. Nothing has changed.
The day the printing press was invented is the day it was subverted to push propaganda.
The "era of fake news" is fake. It has always been this way.
The day the printing press was invented is the day it was subverted to push propaganda.
The "era of fake news" is fake. It has always been this way.
I think something has changed:
I want to start with Trump's lies. It's now a commonplace that Trump and his underlings tell whoppers. Fact-checkers have never had it so good. But all politicians lie. Bill Clinton could barely go a day without some shading or parsing of the truth. Richard Nixon was famously tricky. But all the traditional political fibbers nonetheless paid some deference to the truth — even as they were dodging it. They acknowledged a shared reality and bowed to it. They acknowledged the need for a common set of facts in order for a liberal democracy to function at all. Trump's lies are different. They are direct refutations of reality — and their propagation and repetition is about enforcing his power rather than wriggling out of a political conundrum. They are attacks on the very possibility of a reasoned discourse, the kind of bald-faced lies that authoritarians issue as a way to test loyalty and force their subjects into submission. That first press conference when Sean Spicer was sent out to lie and fulminate to the press about the inauguration crowd reminded me of some Soviet apparatchik having his loyalty tested to see if he could repeat in public what he knew to be false. It was comical, but also faintly chilling.
From Andrew Sullivan, a conservative blogger, here:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/02/andrew-sullivan...
I want to start with Trump's lies. It's now a commonplace that Trump and his underlings tell whoppers. Fact-checkers have never had it so good. But all politicians lie. Bill Clinton could barely go a day without some shading or parsing of the truth. Richard Nixon was famously tricky. But all the traditional political fibbers nonetheless paid some deference to the truth — even as they were dodging it. They acknowledged a shared reality and bowed to it. They acknowledged the need for a common set of facts in order for a liberal democracy to function at all. Trump's lies are different. They are direct refutations of reality — and their propagation and repetition is about enforcing his power rather than wriggling out of a political conundrum. They are attacks on the very possibility of a reasoned discourse, the kind of bald-faced lies that authoritarians issue as a way to test loyalty and force their subjects into submission. That first press conference when Sean Spicer was sent out to lie and fulminate to the press about the inauguration crowd reminded me of some Soviet apparatchik having his loyalty tested to see if he could repeat in public what he knew to be false. It was comical, but also faintly chilling.
From Andrew Sullivan, a conservative blogger, here:
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/02/andrew-sullivan...
So you're trying to convince me something has materially changed by posting a quote that compares the current scenario to what the Soviets used to do?
Either things have changed, or the Soviets were doing it in the past. Only one of these statements can be true.
Either things have changed, or the Soviets were doing it in the past. Only one of these statements can be true.
No, you're the fake news!
Do you have an "facts" to back up your claim that this "era" we've "entered" is a recent phenomena?
I'm sorry, but do you have any evidence for this? Or that it happened here?
I feel like there's a burden of proof that you're putting on Elon Musk that you're not also putting on Morgan here. All we have is his personal testimony without any other evidence either.
Wow this article looks like it was written using Gizmodo as the only source. Not only that, it is almost a verbatim copy. Generally Ars has great coverage but this is horrible. Also fun fact the title had to be updated due to being misleading.
Update: This story went up with two headlines. One of them, "Tesla employee calls for unionization, Musk says that’s 'morally outrageous,'" could have been construed as Musk claiming that unionization itself is morally outrageous, which was not the case. We have replaced that headline with the other.Ars hasn't been anything approaching "Great" for years.
It's really more the individual reporters. Eric Berger, for example, puts out a lot of great and balanced space-related articles.
I'd agree with that, but I think when we're down to naming individuals and their merits, my point about the organization as a whole not being good is supported.
> employee writes of low wages, poor morale; company denies claims
Lol this could be any organization in the world. :)
Lol this could be any organization in the world. :)
If that's your image of working, you should consider working for different companies. This would not describe my workplace, or most of the ones I've worked for.
I think you can find at least one employee complaining anywhere, though.
template <typename Company>
void news()
{
std::cout << Company::ToString() << " employee writes of low wages, poor morale; company denies claims";
}
Just a note I really appreciate how ARS documented the title changes at the bottom of the article explaining their reasoning.
This isn't anything new; apparently SpaceX is the same way. It's why I don't want to go work for an Elon Musk company. I have respect for myself, and it seems like you have to be willing to undercut yourself to work there.
I was looking at SpaceX software engineering jobs and the listings said that the position would be expected to work overtime and weekends "as needed". Yeah, no thanks. I guess at least they're up front about it.
How does this compare to Nissan (US), also non-union?
Usually whenever I see one of these "expose" posts on Gizmodo, it's usually an employee that was a miscreant/unhappy person.
The other theme that doesn't get exposed, is that the employee in question has the same attitude no matter where they work.
I was working at Best Buy/Geek Squad when they had their big "unhappy employee" expose, and my last point was very true.
There are plenty of happy employees at all these companies, people (especially Giz) loves the bad story.
The other theme that doesn't get exposed, is that the employee in question has the same attitude no matter where they work.
I was working at Best Buy/Geek Squad when they had their big "unhappy employee" expose, and my last point was very true.
There are plenty of happy employees at all these companies, people (especially Giz) loves the bad story.
Hey know it all, what about you go work for Tesla and find out for yourself? I have first hand info about what goes on there and I would say the dude is definitely holding back.
It takes unreasonable people to change the world.
Yes but one "unreasonable" person complaining on Gizmodo about a company doesn't mean there is some systemic problem at the company or the culture.
It's a confirmation bias problem. If Gizmodo posted a bunch of stories about "People at company X say things are awesome!!!" it would probably be deadpanned.
It's a confirmation bias problem. If Gizmodo posted a bunch of stories about "People at company X say things are awesome!!!" it would probably be deadpanned.
MK999(4)
That Tesla pays poor wages is well known. But this is expected since they are more a startup and do not have that much cash to go by. I guess the sad part is they don't hand out much shares either
Tesla is not a startup. It's a big company with real products. Their startup days are long gone.
Being a startup in the automotive manufacturing business is not the same as being a startup in the software business. A software company with 1000 employees is huge, an automotive manufacturing company with 1000 employees is tiny.
So is Tesla compensating its factory workers with stock options?
If you're working for a startup and they expect you to work long hours for pay below the industry standard and they don't give you stock or stock options, they don't get to play the "startup!" card.
We debate endlessly the risk/reward for stock options in a startup versus good pay and benefits at an established company, but if they aren't even giving you stock--
If you're working for a startup and they expect you to work long hours for pay below the industry standard and they don't give you stock or stock options, they don't get to play the "startup!" card.
We debate endlessly the risk/reward for stock options in a startup versus good pay and benefits at an established company, but if they aren't even giving you stock--
Out of curiosity I checked the number of employees of a small car manufacturer no too far from my hometown: Bugatti. 91 employees for an output of about 40 cars a year. I'm actually surprised that is possible at all to be so small in the automotive industry (though to be fair they belong to Volkswagen Group). Of course not trying to compare that to Tesla, the goal/scope/market is just too different.
Gumpert produces a super sports car with around 50 employees. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Automobil
It really doesn't take many people to produce a car.
It really doesn't take many people to produce a car.
That is a fair point. I was comparing Tesla to the scale of companies that it wants to compete against.
Being a startup and having cash to pay employees well are not mutually exclusive.
In fact they appear to have raise 2.37 Billion: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/tesla-motors#/entity
In fact they appear to have raise 2.37 Billion: https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/tesla-motors#/entity
Telsa is publicly traded on the US stock market. Surely it has graduated to "real company" by now. If not, when would you mark that point for a company?
For an automotive company, when it has produced more than 200,000 cars for more than 5 years in a row.
200,000 cars per year would be:
* 2% of Toyota's yearly output,
* 4% of GM's yearly output,
* 20% of BMW's or Mazda's yearly output.
200,000 cars per year would be:
* 2% of Toyota's yearly output,
* 4% of GM's yearly output,
* 20% of BMW's or Mazda's yearly output.
From the EthanHeilman rulebook?
Well yeah, blackguardx asked me how I would mark it I gave my answer.
I agree Tesla is a small automotive company, but it isn't a startup. There are plenty of small companies that aren't startups.
Startup depends on your goals. Tesla wants to compete with GM and Toyota. It clearly has a long way to go.
I guess he got this tactic from Trump, claiming that any dissent comes from paid protesters. While offering no evidence that it's actually the case.
> Update 10/2/17 9:20am EST: In a statement this morning UAW categorically denied that Moran had ever been paid by their organization.
https://gizmodo.com/elon-musk-responds-to-claims-of-low-pay-...