Ask HN: What web framework would you recommend for a greenfield project in 2018?
19 comments
Is this project a serious one? If it is, go for something mature and something you are familiar with even if it's "unsexy" like PHP and jQuery [1]. Learning a new technology while building your product can be fun, but it is often counterproductive. Unless your project has specific needs which only a few technologies can fulfill, it'll be just fine. Choosing something familiar allows you to focus on your project instead of your tech stack.
Don't worry too much about choosing the "wrong" language or framework. What you build matters more than how you build it. For example, many would recommend Postgres over MySQL for good reasons, yet those who use MySQL are doing just fine [2]. Their advantages are often insignificant in practice, so feel free to ignore the hype (especially here on HN)!
Angular, React, Vue are all fine choices for building SPAs. Rails is kind of out of place here (it's not a front-end framework). The hype around it has died, but Rails itself is still very much alive, and it's very mature. ClojureScript and Elm may need a bit more getting used to depending on your experience. Their communities are relatively small though, so you'll have less resources available.
[1] PHP gets a bad rap for its past, but modern PHP really isn't so bad (very Java or Ruby like, depending on the framework that you choose). jQuery is "old", but reliable. Not a good idea if you're building something highly interactive, but if you only need "a little bit of JS" then it seems like a good fit. SPAs have many advantages, but are also much more complex, so avoid building one if you don't need to.
[2] https://www.mysql.com/customers/
Don't worry too much about choosing the "wrong" language or framework. What you build matters more than how you build it. For example, many would recommend Postgres over MySQL for good reasons, yet those who use MySQL are doing just fine [2]. Their advantages are often insignificant in practice, so feel free to ignore the hype (especially here on HN)!
Angular, React, Vue are all fine choices for building SPAs. Rails is kind of out of place here (it's not a front-end framework). The hype around it has died, but Rails itself is still very much alive, and it's very mature. ClojureScript and Elm may need a bit more getting used to depending on your experience. Their communities are relatively small though, so you'll have less resources available.
[1] PHP gets a bad rap for its past, but modern PHP really isn't so bad (very Java or Ruby like, depending on the framework that you choose). jQuery is "old", but reliable. Not a good idea if you're building something highly interactive, but if you only need "a little bit of JS" then it seems like a good fit. SPAs have many advantages, but are also much more complex, so avoid building one if you don't need to.
[2] https://www.mysql.com/customers/
This is a very simple checklist I recommend to anyone who asks me this question:
Know PHP? Take Laravel. Know Ruby? Take Rails. Know JS? Take vanilla Express. Know Python? Take Django.
Sprinkle some jquery on top for the frontend with bootstrap for quick UI. And if you plan to support only modern browsers (not IE), you might not even need jquery. A whole lot of the api is built straight into modern browsers.
Any such tomfoolery such as Single Page Application Frameworks, Server Side Rendering of said frameworks is never required. Not even facebook, which built react for its own use, has a fully React rendered page.
Deploy them on a regular servers/stacks. No unnecessary docker, kubernetes, etc., is required, unless you are making a project for google where you will get a million hits on the first day.
Know PHP? Take Laravel. Know Ruby? Take Rails. Know JS? Take vanilla Express. Know Python? Take Django.
Sprinkle some jquery on top for the frontend with bootstrap for quick UI. And if you plan to support only modern browsers (not IE), you might not even need jquery. A whole lot of the api is built straight into modern browsers.
Any such tomfoolery such as Single Page Application Frameworks, Server Side Rendering of said frameworks is never required. Not even facebook, which built react for its own use, has a fully React rendered page.
Deploy them on a regular servers/stacks. No unnecessary docker, kubernetes, etc., is required, unless you are making a project for google where you will get a million hits on the first day.
Awesome, thanks for this detailed answer! I was really starting to get nervous with the option-overload, but I feel comfortable with Express.js and Node.js and some ORM for the back-end, and vanilla JS for the front-end, so that's probably the direction I'll go! I guess I'll still need a build tool though since I'd like some things like autoprefixer etc, and I'll need to figure out a template engine for Node. Anyway thanks again!
Hey, I picked a similar stack when I developed my product. Basically we started with EJS templates since they were the closest to normal HTML but had to move to serverside Vue + Express because of security issues when mixing Vue + EJS.
I'd love to talk more about what/why if you have any questions. Shoot me an email @ [redacted] if you're interested.
I'd love to talk more about what/why if you have any questions. Shoot me an email @ [redacted] if you're interested.
For a frontend project I would recommend React, as the tooling available for it goes way beyond Vue or Angular. A React component is syntactically equivalent to a plain JS function or class, so once you're set up you have a much easier time (IMO) managing a large project using it.
If the project is such that you don't need to specifically have server APIs separate from the content you serve, you might want to look at Next.js or After.js, which are two similar approaches to a "just make a whole website out of React components, including server-side functionality".
If the project is such that you don't need to specifically have server APIs separate from the content you serve, you might want to look at Next.js or After.js, which are two similar approaches to a "just make a whole website out of React components, including server-side functionality".
What languages are you comfortable and proficient in?
If you plan to write a volume of code comparable to a small novel, you will likely want to do so in a comfortable way, able to express nuances and details in an efficient, readable, elegant manner.
There aren’t many writers who can write equally well in French and English, and even fewer who can write fluently and with finesse in Belgian French, Canadian French, UK English, Australian English, Mexican Spanish and Catalonian Spanish.
It takes constant experience and refinement to master Ruby + the rails API, something I imagine is even more true for the front end in the presence of elm etc.
I know that i would pick up the tools that my brain groks with the least effort (from a set of reliable, popular, well maintained options). The way my mind works can be the weakest link or my strongest asset — if I take it in consideration.
I can think Vue but I can’t think React. I can joyfully think Ruby but I get frustrated with C# or pho etc. slim makes me happy, erb pokes my eyes.
If you plan to write a volume of code comparable to a small novel, you will likely want to do so in a comfortable way, able to express nuances and details in an efficient, readable, elegant manner.
There aren’t many writers who can write equally well in French and English, and even fewer who can write fluently and with finesse in Belgian French, Canadian French, UK English, Australian English, Mexican Spanish and Catalonian Spanish.
It takes constant experience and refinement to master Ruby + the rails API, something I imagine is even more true for the front end in the presence of elm etc.
I know that i would pick up the tools that my brain groks with the least effort (from a set of reliable, popular, well maintained options). The way my mind works can be the weakest link or my strongest asset — if I take it in consideration.
I can think Vue but I can’t think React. I can joyfully think Ruby but I get frustrated with C# or pho etc. slim makes me happy, erb pokes my eyes.
I recommend elixir with plug/cowboy. Phoenix is nice too.
On the front end try Elm.
On the front end try Elm.
In terms of front-end development for business applications I'd recommend Angular (current version: 6. Since they adopted semver major releases have become much more frequent).
It gives you an easy way to structure your application in a predictably manner.
In my opinion, Angular lends itself to CRUD-type applications particularly well because of a clear separation between business logic and the presentation layer as well as due to easily reusable components.
Since Angular 2 the tooling has become quite reliable as well.
As for the back-end I'd suggest Spring Boot. It allows you to draw upon the vast amount of high-quality libraries available for the JVM without incurring the complexity cost that in the past often used to come with Java.
It gives you an easy way to structure your application in a predictably manner.
In my opinion, Angular lends itself to CRUD-type applications particularly well because of a clear separation between business logic and the presentation layer as well as due to easily reusable components.
Since Angular 2 the tooling has become quite reliable as well.
As for the back-end I'd suggest Spring Boot. It allows you to draw upon the vast amount of high-quality libraries available for the JVM without incurring the complexity cost that in the past often used to come with Java.
Unless there is a compelling reason to go another direction: React on the front, Node on the back, deployed in Docker containers.
I disagree. Not all projects need a two tiered approach. For simple webapps a server-side, template-driven framework like Rails, Django etc. will make life much easier. You introduce a lot of added complexity when you go with an API + SPA
I'm not sure about that. If I use create-react-app to do a lot of the heavy lifting for the front-end, and use nothing but GraphQL for the back-end, that is still pretty simple, right?
React on the front, python Flask on the back (if you need to build a small app quickly), or Java dropwizard if this is going to be something big.
I think it really depends on what you are building, and it may be the case that a frontend framework is overkill for what you need!
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In particular I don't have a lot of particulars. I plan to deploy to EC2 and there is a need for a little bit of JS on the front-end for some stuff that can't be done server-side, but other than that it's all a very standard web app.
Comparison articles come out all the time but it's really hard to judge the competency or bias of the author. So I'm turning to you HN considering your reputation for being at the front of the game.