The dream of driverless cars is dying(spectator.co.uk)
spectator.co.uk
The dream of driverless cars is dying
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/the-dream-of-driverless-cars-is-dying/
123 comments
I'm not sure why anyone would say the "dream" is dying. If anything is dying, it's unrealistic hopes that fully autonomous vehicles will be widespread and dirt cheap to be driven around in by the end of this decade.
I suspect the hype's been fueled by--in addition to the usual suspects--the growth of young professionals in urban areas who have this vision of never having to own a car and being driven around everywhere. For that to be a reality, self-driving has to happen right now--not incrementally over the coming decades.
I suspect the hype's been fueled by--in addition to the usual suspects--the growth of young professionals in urban areas who have this vision of never having to own a car and being driven around everywhere. For that to be a reality, self-driving has to happen right now--not incrementally over the coming decades.
> For that to be a reality...
Those on demand trip services (Uber, Lyft, etc) are already cheaper than owning a car. What you describe already exists.
Those on demand trip services (Uber, Lyft, etc) are already cheaper than owning a car. What you describe already exists.
Ride hailing services are only cheaper in a few dense urban areas where most trips are short and parking is very expensive. Everywhere else they're still an expensive luxury.
Yep. I pay an insane amount of money to Lyft for rides to home because I live away from city and we only have one car.
Could have gotten a second car but I hate driving in peak hour traffic so I take the bus. Lyft is definitely convenient after hours since my last bus is at 6pm. The convinience comes at a steep price though.
Could have gotten a second car but I hate driving in peak hour traffic so I take the bus. Lyft is definitely convenient after hours since my last bus is at 6pm. The convinience comes at a steep price though.
I don't know man, I would pay $500 a week in Uber if I used it to travel to and from work, let alone anywhere else.
> Those on demand trip services (Uber, Lyft, etc) are already cheaper than owning a car.
Only until the VC dollars dry up.
Only until the VC dollars dry up.
or the drivers form unions, maybe?
Really? For a family of 4 or 5? Does lift even have car seats for children? We still need a minivan, and we pay 300 a month + gas when our car isn't paid for (which it is). We generally use used cars that are a decade old to save money.
How is uber cheaper?
How is uber cheaper?
> For a family of 4 or 5?
Presumably for the "young, urban professionals" the GP referred to, which I'd expect are, at most, a family of 2 (in the GP commenter's eyes).
Even given this assumption, even that may be debatable, since it assumes the Uber/Lyft model is sustainable without self-driving cars.
Presumably for the "young, urban professionals" the GP referred to, which I'd expect are, at most, a family of 2 (in the GP commenter's eyes).
Even given this assumption, even that may be debatable, since it assumes the Uber/Lyft model is sustainable without self-driving cars.
I've got a wife, kid and one on the way, and even just us 3, I think uber/lyft wouldn't work. Why do a lot of people on HN assume everyone is single(and always will be), or a family <= 2.. That's a huge fallacy of thinking.
I can't wait for self-driving tech, I'll probably buy it when it hits used car lots, though. I'm hoping by 2030 it'll be real. I don't think uber/lyft can sustain more than 4-5 more years on investors alone, without charging a LOT more for rides if they're going to continue using real drivers.
The real disruption will be when car companies instead of selling cars, simply sell memberships to a car sharing plan... pay $200/family member/month to Ford, get unlimited self-driving wherever anyone in the family is going. No need for insurance/etc... gas included.
I can't wait for self-driving tech, I'll probably buy it when it hits used car lots, though. I'm hoping by 2030 it'll be real. I don't think uber/lyft can sustain more than 4-5 more years on investors alone, without charging a LOT more for rides if they're going to continue using real drivers.
The real disruption will be when car companies instead of selling cars, simply sell memberships to a car sharing plan... pay $200/family member/month to Ford, get unlimited self-driving wherever anyone in the family is going. No need for insurance/etc... gas included.
> Why do a lot of people on HN assume everyone is single
That's an easy one.. for the same reason they assume everyone is a young, urban, technical professional living in a major tech hub.
I recall this being a source of criticism (though admittedly not recently) about the problems startups are solving being skewed toward the problems the above people (the same ones doing the solving) tend to have.
> (and always will be)
I'm not sure that's quite true, at least not in the sense that of individuals.
However, they may assume it of the population within a certain location, such as that urban tech hub in which they live, if the individuals who do form >=3 families move away to the suburbs, and are replaced by single individuals. This seems to happen in US cities.
> when car companies instead of selling cars, simply sell memberships to a car sharing plan
What's their incentive? Car-share already exists for non-self-driving cars, but through third parties. It's quite expensive.
> get unlimited self-driving
That seems a particularly unattractive option for the provide, as well as being political dynamite.
That's an easy one.. for the same reason they assume everyone is a young, urban, technical professional living in a major tech hub.
I recall this being a source of criticism (though admittedly not recently) about the problems startups are solving being skewed toward the problems the above people (the same ones doing the solving) tend to have.
> (and always will be)
I'm not sure that's quite true, at least not in the sense that of individuals.
However, they may assume it of the population within a certain location, such as that urban tech hub in which they live, if the individuals who do form >=3 families move away to the suburbs, and are replaced by single individuals. This seems to happen in US cities.
> when car companies instead of selling cars, simply sell memberships to a car sharing plan
What's their incentive? Car-share already exists for non-self-driving cars, but through third parties. It's quite expensive.
> get unlimited self-driving
That seems a particularly unattractive option for the provide, as well as being political dynamite.
I know for one, Tesla has made it so you can't use tesla for rideshare, because you have to use their (forthcoming) service, IIRC, I remember reading that somewhere, I also believe some of the manufacturers of self-driving tech have partnered with lyft or uber to possibly be the software behind their own rideshare.
The future of cars, makes sense not to own... A car just dropped johnny (a kid I have no relation to) off at school a mile from my house 5 minutes before I need to be to work, this car then becomes mine till I get to work, from there it takes someone else to a brunch meeting... and so forth.
Using logistics it can free up roads by sending the closest available car to pick people up, and possibly re-arranging traffic patterns via networking to make roads clearer...etc.
Edit: one more attractive thing for car companies: Subscriptions. Someone paying 800 for life, is MUCH better than someone paying 20k once. They can know with better certainty their monthly recurring revenue when charting growth/etc..
The future of cars, makes sense not to own... A car just dropped johnny (a kid I have no relation to) off at school a mile from my house 5 minutes before I need to be to work, this car then becomes mine till I get to work, from there it takes someone else to a brunch meeting... and so forth.
Using logistics it can free up roads by sending the closest available car to pick people up, and possibly re-arranging traffic patterns via networking to make roads clearer...etc.
Edit: one more attractive thing for car companies: Subscriptions. Someone paying 800 for life, is MUCH better than someone paying 20k once. They can know with better certainty their monthly recurring revenue when charting growth/etc..
Seems more likely to be a membership in the 50 cents to $1 per mile range which is what it currently costs to operate a car (including for any deadheading). Not sure why anyone would offer for a fixed fee unless it was for a very high number.
I suspect the assumption is that this cost will go down if insurance/liability (i.e. injury and property damage) costs are drastically reduced by self-driving cars and fuel and maintenance costs are also reduced by all-electric drivetrains.
Still, $200 seems far-fetched in light of the average American 1200 miles monthly. At under $.17/mi (not counting deadheading), that might not even cover depreciation/capital cost.
Still, $200 seems far-fetched in light of the average American 1200 miles monthly. At under $.17/mi (not counting deadheading), that might not even cover depreciation/capital cost.
It'd be 400 for a family of 2, 1000 for a family of 5. Could be 300, or 400 per person I just pulled an arbitrary # out of my arse. It does assume more electric use, maybe not 100% electric, but maybe 100 mpg with electric assist.
People are more apt to buy into an 'unlimited' plan. Road trips would cost extra (because you're gaining unlimited full-multi-day access to a vehicle), maybe something like $30/day + gas.
People are more apt to buy into an 'unlimited' plan. Road trips would cost extra (because you're gaining unlimited full-multi-day access to a vehicle), maybe something like $30/day + gas.
> Could be 300, or 400 per person I just pulled an arbitrary # out of my arse.
That's part of my point, though, that what the number is (or at least its order of magnitude), actually does matter.
For something like a per-person charge, if that number is high enough, for large enough families, people are going to start looking at whether they could be saving by using the per-vehicle pricing of buying versus renting. I'm also saying that this number must be high enough to be attractive for the car company.
> maybe not 100% electric, but maybe 100 mpg with electric assist.
I'd say that's misguided, then, because fuel cost alone is too low a fraction of total operating cost.
> Road trips would cost extra
So like today's cellphone "unlimited" data? In that case, sure, an actually-limited subscription plan would easily be attractive to a car company, since they could write in any limits they want and change them any time, as well as vary the pricing at any time.
How many consumers would opt for that instead of outright buying is another matter.
That's part of my point, though, that what the number is (or at least its order of magnitude), actually does matter.
For something like a per-person charge, if that number is high enough, for large enough families, people are going to start looking at whether they could be saving by using the per-vehicle pricing of buying versus renting. I'm also saying that this number must be high enough to be attractive for the car company.
> maybe not 100% electric, but maybe 100 mpg with electric assist.
I'd say that's misguided, then, because fuel cost alone is too low a fraction of total operating cost.
> Road trips would cost extra
So like today's cellphone "unlimited" data? In that case, sure, an actually-limited subscription plan would easily be attractive to a car company, since they could write in any limits they want and change them any time, as well as vary the pricing at any time.
How many consumers would opt for that instead of outright buying is another matter.
It depends on where you live and your lifestyle. They certainly wouldn't be for me. And there are many situations where I have to drive myself, even if it's a rental car.
[deleted]
I don't know if it's cheaper in urban USA than here in Western Australia... But I find taking Uber every morning and afternoon works out to be substantially (i.e. prohibitively) more expensive for me than driving the car in to the office.
> People just expect it to happen much too quickly, there's no patience.
> It's just dying for the people who never understood how absolutely challenging the problem actually is.
You're laying a lot of blame at the feet of the excited people, but in their defense, much of their excitement is thanks to hucksters (cough Elon cough) who've been insisting that fully autonomous cars are just a year or two away. It's not like these people can be reasonably expected to understand how difficult the problem domain is, especially when they've seen recent AI successes at other problems that were popularly considered impossible (e.g. AlphaGo).
> It's just dying for the people who never understood how absolutely challenging the problem actually is.
You're laying a lot of blame at the feet of the excited people, but in their defense, much of their excitement is thanks to hucksters (cough Elon cough) who've been insisting that fully autonomous cars are just a year or two away. It's not like these people can be reasonably expected to understand how difficult the problem domain is, especially when they've seen recent AI successes at other problems that were popularly considered impossible (e.g. AlphaGo).
Hucksters in combination with a massive game of Topper. The company that's honest and says they're 20 years away from door-to-door autonomy gets their stock downgraded and negative press because they're so far behind.
And, as you say, a lot of people assume the mostly unanticipated advances in deep learning in a short period of time carry over to everything even vaguely related to AI and cognitive science more broadly.
And, as you say, a lot of people assume the mostly unanticipated advances in deep learning in a short period of time carry over to everything even vaguely related to AI and cognitive science more broadly.
I watched some of the progress updates that you posted on youtube for that project and I was amazed by what you could acheive at home with a powerful GPU and publicly available software.
Here's the playlist with all of those videos if anyone else is interested: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQVvvaa0QuDeETZEOy4Vd...
Here's the playlist with all of those videos if anyone else is interested: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQVvvaa0QuDeETZEOy4Vd...
Reminds me of this famously wrong column dismissing the Internet back in 1995: https://www.newsweek.com/clifford-stoll-why-web-wont-be-nirv...
> How about electronic publishing? Try reading a book on disc. At best, it's an unpleasant chore: the myopic glow of a clunky computer replaces the friendly pages of a book. And you can't tote that laptop to the beach. Yet Nicholas Negroponte, director of the MIT Media Lab, predicts that we'll soon buy books and newspapers straight over the Intenet. Uh, sure.
Takeaway: people expect way too much out of next five years of the future, and typically it takes twenty years for those expectations to become fully realized. (I believe there is an Andy Grove quote to the same effect, but I couldn't find it in time.)
> How about electronic publishing? Try reading a book on disc. At best, it's an unpleasant chore: the myopic glow of a clunky computer replaces the friendly pages of a book. And you can't tote that laptop to the beach. Yet Nicholas Negroponte, director of the MIT Media Lab, predicts that we'll soon buy books and newspapers straight over the Intenet. Uh, sure.
Takeaway: people expect way too much out of next five years of the future, and typically it takes twenty years for those expectations to become fully realized. (I believe there is an Andy Grove quote to the same effect, but I couldn't find it in time.)
We still don’t have flying cars nor self-conscious robots, things that have been prophetized 100 to 50 years ago. Going back more in time we still don’t have a philosophical stone. The idea is that some technological prophecies are indeed wrong.
Re: We still don’t have flying cars nor self-conscious robots
But the proof of concept of auto-cars generally works. The kinks don't seem insurmountable, just a series of incremental improvements and economies of scale.
Flying cars on the other hand have some really big problems to tackle, such as noise pollution. And robots with "common sense" still seem a long ways off. There is no proof of concept that's even close.
But the proof of concept of auto-cars generally works. The kinks don't seem insurmountable, just a series of incremental improvements and economies of scale.
Flying cars on the other hand have some really big problems to tackle, such as noise pollution. And robots with "common sense" still seem a long ways off. There is no proof of concept that's even close.
The former were pure prophecies with no viable, known methods to achieve them at the time. Self driving cars are in active development, and look to be within spitting distance of full autonomy at least for most driving scenarios. It's possible that last % of situations will be super hard to solve, sure, but it's still a very different thing than someone just going, "oh man it'll be cool when".
>We still don’t have flying cars
Why does no one consider a helicopter to be a "flying car"? What can a flying car do that a helicopter can't? The only difference I see is that a flying car would be cheaper and owned by more people, which a helicopter could easily be if people actually wanted a flying car. Helicopters are expensive because they're very niche devices.
The fact that almost no one owns a helicopter proves that people don't actually want flying cars.
Why does no one consider a helicopter to be a "flying car"? What can a flying car do that a helicopter can't? The only difference I see is that a flying car would be cheaper and owned by more people, which a helicopter could easily be if people actually wanted a flying car. Helicopters are expensive because they're very niche devices.
The fact that almost no one owns a helicopter proves that people don't actually want flying cars.
Helicopters do not, in fact, do what people want flying cars to do. The fact that the masses are not using helicopters to go to the mall shows this, and by reflecting on what would happen if this were tried, you can figure out why helicopters are not flying cars.
But that doesn't answer the question of "what do people want to do with flying cars that can't be done with a helicopter"... it only answers the question "are people using helicopters as flying cars". You're making an extremely false assumption that "because people aren't using helicopters, that means helicopters aren't flying cars, and we all know people want flying cars". Extremely faulty.
Let's beg the question and assume people want to go to the mall with their flying car, that's their primary use case. They can't do this right now because there are no parking spaces at the mall for their helicopter. There are no parking spaces for their helicopter because no one is flying to the mall with their helicopter. If people did, the mall would build parking for them. This is shown by the fact that places where people regularly fly helicopters, there is dedicated helicopter parking. It's just as valid for me to say "the fact that helicopters exist but are uncommon proves people don't want flying cars" as it is for you to say "helicopters are not flying cars".
I'll ask the question again: why do people not consider helicopters to be flying cars? They do exactly what people want a flying car to do: they take off and land vertically, they can fit in a reasonably sized parking space, they can easily maneuver in three dimensions, and they hold passengers and cargo. I argue that helicopters are flying cars, and they're proof that most people don't actually want flying cars.
Let's beg the question and assume people want to go to the mall with their flying car, that's their primary use case. They can't do this right now because there are no parking spaces at the mall for their helicopter. There are no parking spaces for their helicopter because no one is flying to the mall with their helicopter. If people did, the mall would build parking for them. This is shown by the fact that places where people regularly fly helicopters, there is dedicated helicopter parking. It's just as valid for me to say "the fact that helicopters exist but are uncommon proves people don't want flying cars" as it is for you to say "helicopters are not flying cars".
I'll ask the question again: why do people not consider helicopters to be flying cars? They do exactly what people want a flying car to do: they take off and land vertically, they can fit in a reasonably sized parking space, they can easily maneuver in three dimensions, and they hold passengers and cargo. I argue that helicopters are flying cars, and they're proof that most people don't actually want flying cars.
mannykannot(1)
Helicopters are complex machines that require lots of maintenance and significant training to fly safely. It's hard to see how you would reduce even the maintenance costs enough to make them practical for universal use.
To your second point, people with enough money and training do commonly buy them for personal use. (I know this anecdotally from a relative involved in sales of Airbus helicopters.) If you addressed the cost and safety issues no doubt more people would buy them.
To your second point, people with enough money and training do commonly buy them for personal use. (I know this anecdotally from a relative involved in sales of Airbus helicopters.) If you addressed the cost and safety issues no doubt more people would buy them.
>Helicopters are complex machines that require lots of maintenance and significant training to fly safely.
So did cars when they were first introduced. Since they solved a need, there was a great incentive to make them easier to use and easier to repair. That incentive doesn't exist for helicopters because most people don't own helicopters.
>To your second point, people with enough money and training do commonly buy them for personal use.
I'm glad you pointed this out, I didn't make that argument because it would ruin the surprise, but yeah. People do use flying cars, and they're called helicopters. They're just used by very rich people or people with enough training to operate them. But think in cities like NYC, helicopters are used just like cars would be, because using a car can be unpractical. Functionally there is no difference between Michael Bloomberg traveling to Newark via a limo versus via a helicopter: both park at his building and can transport him from his home to his destination. It's a flying car.
>If you addressed the cost and safety issues no doubt more people would buy them.
The incentive to improve cost and safety only exists if demand exists. Cars only got cheaper and safer when the public began buying them. Flying cars (helicopters) will only become safer and cheaper if people start demanding them as well. The fact that they're not, IMO, proves people don't actually want flying cars.
So did cars when they were first introduced. Since they solved a need, there was a great incentive to make them easier to use and easier to repair. That incentive doesn't exist for helicopters because most people don't own helicopters.
>To your second point, people with enough money and training do commonly buy them for personal use.
I'm glad you pointed this out, I didn't make that argument because it would ruin the surprise, but yeah. People do use flying cars, and they're called helicopters. They're just used by very rich people or people with enough training to operate them. But think in cities like NYC, helicopters are used just like cars would be, because using a car can be unpractical. Functionally there is no difference between Michael Bloomberg traveling to Newark via a limo versus via a helicopter: both park at his building and can transport him from his home to his destination. It's a flying car.
>If you addressed the cost and safety issues no doubt more people would buy them.
The incentive to improve cost and safety only exists if demand exists. Cars only got cheaper and safer when the public began buying them. Flying cars (helicopters) will only become safer and cheaper if people start demanding them as well. The fact that they're not, IMO, proves people don't actually want flying cars.
There is plenty of incentive to make helicopters cheaper to own and operate, have simpler and less frequent maintenance requirements, to be easier to fly, require less space to take off and land, be quieter and safer. It hasn't happened so far because these are genuinely difficult problems, not because of lack of incentive.
No one in NYC, not even Bloomberg, is landing, let alone parking, his helicopter at his office. It is completely impractical in terms of safety, space and noise, even if it were just one person doing it, and absurdly infeasible to think it could be scaled up to, say, just the number of people using the Lincoln tunnel in any given half-hour. There are a few helipads around the edges of the city (a number that is likely to decrease on account of noise), that cater to some of the transportation needs of a number of people that can be counted in the hundreds per day, not hundreds of thousands.
The idea that if there is a wish, a solution would have been found by now, does not stand up to the most cursory examination - for one thing, if it were so, not many people would be dying.
No one in NYC, not even Bloomberg, is landing, let alone parking, his helicopter at his office. It is completely impractical in terms of safety, space and noise, even if it were just one person doing it, and absurdly infeasible to think it could be scaled up to, say, just the number of people using the Lincoln tunnel in any given half-hour. There are a few helipads around the edges of the city (a number that is likely to decrease on account of noise), that cater to some of the transportation needs of a number of people that can be counted in the hundreds per day, not hundreds of thousands.
The idea that if there is a wish, a solution would have been found by now, does not stand up to the most cursory examination - for one thing, if it were so, not many people would be dying.
I like your point about the number of people in the Lincoln Tunnel and people dying in crashes.
I agree it's a genuinely difficult problem, but we might agree for different reasons. I think it's a genuinely difficult problem because there is no way to make a flying car as safe as a car that is stuck to the ground. There's just not. Normal cars break down, they run out of gas, they stop working all the time. You coast to a stop and call a tow truck. Flying cars break down and you plummet to your death. Normal cars crash into each other in just 2 dimensions. Flying cars crash into each other in three dimensions, and then you plummet to your death. Normal cars get stuck in traffic and sit with their engines at idle, producing small amounts of pollution, noise, wind and heat, yet still contribute substantially to global warming. Flying cars sitting at idle in a traffic jam still have to hover above the ground, which means they're running their engines almost as hard as if they were actually moving, producing tons more waste byproduct than even the most gas-guzzling SUV.
Of course, my argument isn't "flying cars are a bad idea", so all of those points might seem offtopic. But it links back to the idea that we already have flying cars and we've already realized that it's a terrible idea. Short of true anti-gravity, a flying car is always going to be less safe, more polluting, more complicated mechanically, and is always a bad idea. If people actually wanted flying cars, we would deal with the downsides long enough for smart people to overcome the reliability and price issues, but overcoming "plummeting to your death" is a genuinely difficult problem that only has one solution: true anti-grav that works even when the power is disconnected. Since that's a far-future sci-fi plot, the closest thing we have to flying cars is a helicopter.
It just turns out that using them as reliable daily individual transport is a really bad idea.
I agree it's a genuinely difficult problem, but we might agree for different reasons. I think it's a genuinely difficult problem because there is no way to make a flying car as safe as a car that is stuck to the ground. There's just not. Normal cars break down, they run out of gas, they stop working all the time. You coast to a stop and call a tow truck. Flying cars break down and you plummet to your death. Normal cars crash into each other in just 2 dimensions. Flying cars crash into each other in three dimensions, and then you plummet to your death. Normal cars get stuck in traffic and sit with their engines at idle, producing small amounts of pollution, noise, wind and heat, yet still contribute substantially to global warming. Flying cars sitting at idle in a traffic jam still have to hover above the ground, which means they're running their engines almost as hard as if they were actually moving, producing tons more waste byproduct than even the most gas-guzzling SUV.
Of course, my argument isn't "flying cars are a bad idea", so all of those points might seem offtopic. But it links back to the idea that we already have flying cars and we've already realized that it's a terrible idea. Short of true anti-gravity, a flying car is always going to be less safe, more polluting, more complicated mechanically, and is always a bad idea. If people actually wanted flying cars, we would deal with the downsides long enough for smart people to overcome the reliability and price issues, but overcoming "plummeting to your death" is a genuinely difficult problem that only has one solution: true anti-grav that works even when the power is disconnected. Since that's a far-future sci-fi plot, the closest thing we have to flying cars is a helicopter.
It just turns out that using them as reliable daily individual transport is a really bad idea.
Flying cars are a bad idea, but that hasn't stopped a lot of people wanting them. The vast majority don't give it any thought beyond 'that would be cool', but a few are putting a lot of time and money into trying to make one. It's my opinion that the hardest of all the hard problems is noise, because there aren't many things that can be changed in how lift is generated, and rotors/propellers are intrinsically noise-generating.
I think you may be misinterpreting my last sentence. What I mean is that, just because medical science has not delivered immortality, it doesn't mean that there aren't lots of people who would prefer not to die. You could substitute specific causes of death, such as cancer or alzheimer's, into that argument, if you think that most people have come to terms with their mortality.
I think you may be misinterpreting my last sentence. What I mean is that, just because medical science has not delivered immortality, it doesn't mean that there aren't lots of people who would prefer not to die. You could substitute specific causes of death, such as cancer or alzheimer's, into that argument, if you think that most people have come to terms with their mortality.
He wrote a great book "Silicon Snake Oil" that is full of things just like this he was so very wrong about, it's a great read still. He complains about how bad things were in the late 90s, but somehow misses how things will get better. It's really worth reading.
Somewhere there's a great review, written somewhat recently, on all the things he had wrong. I can't seem to find the one I'm thinking of. I guess he was correct about how things on the web are never permanent.
Somewhere there's a great review, written somewhat recently, on all the things he had wrong. I can't seem to find the one I'm thinking of. I guess he was correct about how things on the web are never permanent.
Well, much like in buying options, you have to guess both the outcome of a bet and the time at which it happens.
The author right, in 2003, I doubt you saw many people reading books on the beach with a clunky laptop or whatever version of kindle existed back then. So, from the mid 90s to mid 2000s, the author was decidedly right for 10 whole years, which is a long time.
Now, if he continued to say that not many people would read ebooks on the beach from 2008-2018, he would have been wrong about that bet. But I doubt he would have felt that way, because by 2008, it was much clearer where the internet was headed compared to in 1998
The author right, in 2003, I doubt you saw many people reading books on the beach with a clunky laptop or whatever version of kindle existed back then. So, from the mid 90s to mid 2000s, the author was decidedly right for 10 whole years, which is a long time.
Now, if he continued to say that not many people would read ebooks on the beach from 2008-2018, he would have been wrong about that bet. But I doubt he would have felt that way, because by 2008, it was much clearer where the internet was headed compared to in 1998
And, on still the other hand, I daresay a lot of the books read on a beach are still in dead tree form. Not that I really sit around beaches reading much, but I'd probably take a paperback over a Kindle for a variety of reasons.
I remember at the time he was always touted as a "futurist", but he didn't ever seem to get the "future" part of that word
Several people have formulated the same idea.
Bill Gates:
> We always overestimate the change that will occur in the next two years and underestimate the change that will occur in the next ten.
Roy Amara:
> We tend to overestimate the effect of a technology in the short run and underestimate the effect in the long run.
Kurzweil has called it ”the intuitive linear view” vs ”the historical exponential view”:
> Most technology forecasts ignore altogether this “historical exponential view” of technological progress. That is why people tend to overestimate what can be achieved in the short term (because we tend to leave out necessary details), but underestimate what can be achieved in the long term (because the exponential growth is ignored).
Bill Gates:
> We always overestimate the change that will occur in the next two years and underestimate the change that will occur in the next ten.
Roy Amara:
> We tend to overestimate the effect of a technology in the short run and underestimate the effect in the long run.
Kurzweil has called it ”the intuitive linear view” vs ”the historical exponential view”:
> Most technology forecasts ignore altogether this “historical exponential view” of technological progress. That is why people tend to overestimate what can be achieved in the short term (because we tend to leave out necessary details), but underestimate what can be achieved in the long term (because the exponential growth is ignored).
However, there is a difference, and I think an important one. With the internet, every piece of needed technology was either in place or easily imagined; with driverless cars, I don't think anyone can claim that is true. While ML/deep learning have made impressive strides in the past years, it is still a big leap to say these same technologies are enough to drive a car in the wild. They may be, but it also may be many years until such a technology is realized.
But ML and DNNs are not supposed to be driving cars. The big players (Waymo and Cruise) are using DNNs only for perception.
Isn’t perception necessary for driving?
It is not sufficient.
The comment to which I replied has been edited. Originally, it said ML & DNNs are neither necessary nor sufficient for driving, then proceeded to say they are only used for perception--hence my question that perception was necessary for driving (but obviously not sufficient).
I think the quote is along the lines of people tending to overestimate progress in the next 5 years but underestimate it in the next 25.
However they also get it wrong. It's hard to predict. Others in the thread have pointed out Asimov's stories that featured FTL warp drives and computers that fit in only one room.
One thing I've noted from observing 20th century progress is that progress is much, much faster for things that are less capital intensive per iteration. It's one reason I've been predicting that solar power will eat the world. Nuclear power is capital intensive per iteration (per power plant or research reactor), so even if it's superior in some ways it has a longer iteration time and so it will lose the race. I think this neatly explains why space tech stagnated and computer tech zoomed way ahead. So today we still have chemical rockets and still get most of our electricity globally from burning coal and gas (100+ year old tech), but we have supercomputers in our pockets.
However they also get it wrong. It's hard to predict. Others in the thread have pointed out Asimov's stories that featured FTL warp drives and computers that fit in only one room.
One thing I've noted from observing 20th century progress is that progress is much, much faster for things that are less capital intensive per iteration. It's one reason I've been predicting that solar power will eat the world. Nuclear power is capital intensive per iteration (per power plant or research reactor), so even if it's superior in some ways it has a longer iteration time and so it will lose the race. I think this neatly explains why space tech stagnated and computer tech zoomed way ahead. So today we still have chemical rockets and still get most of our electricity globally from burning coal and gas (100+ year old tech), but we have supercomputers in our pockets.
To be fair, I find the experience of reading a book or newspaper on <insert your favorite E-reader here> at the beach is still inferior to having the dead tree version.
> To be fair, I find the experience of reading a book or newspaper on <insert your favorite E-reader here> at the beach is still inferior to having the dead tree version.
Oh, yes, sitting on a wet and windy beach trying to read a newspaper sounds superior to reading it on an e-reader in every conceivable way.
Oh, yes, sitting on a wet and windy beach trying to read a newspaper sounds superior to reading it on an e-reader in every conceivable way.
A book or magazine on the other hand.. I definitely prefer in paper.
To be fair, one of the main things Stoll was critiquing at the time was whatever the educational tech hype du jour was which he was more right than wrong about. And twenty years later there's still a huge amount to criticize about how little tech has transformed education, especially in K-12.
ADDED: One thing Stoll did get quite wrong was missing the utility of mass amounts of often uncurated information. Though, in this regard, he has a lot of good company among science fiction authors who mostly envisioned centralized encyclopedias created by experts, not Wikipedia or the Web generally.
ADDED: One thing Stoll did get quite wrong was missing the utility of mass amounts of often uncurated information. Though, in this regard, he has a lot of good company among science fiction authors who mostly envisioned centralized encyclopedias created by experts, not Wikipedia or the Web generally.
The part that I can't figure out is why everyone seems to act like driverless cars will be some kind of all-at-once phase change transition instead of being incremental.
It seems almost a certainty that we will gradually ease into the concept. Some cars will be able to do some things autonomously, a little, for some people, some of the time. Eventually the cost/benefit levels will improve, more features will roll out, and sure over a long time scale things might look revolutionary.
In other words this big complicated category of tech will grow like most other technology has. This isn't an individual app like Instagram or WhatsApp it's a whole category of technology, like the concept of automated factories, or container based shipping, or the internet itself. It could be decades, or longer. Or not.
But as a casual observer it's pretty easy to look around and notice that there really aren't any practical applications of autonomy with mass adoption, and conclude that it's going to be a minute, and that we'll definitely have ample time to notice as we slowly get closer.
It seems almost a certainty that we will gradually ease into the concept. Some cars will be able to do some things autonomously, a little, for some people, some of the time. Eventually the cost/benefit levels will improve, more features will roll out, and sure over a long time scale things might look revolutionary.
In other words this big complicated category of tech will grow like most other technology has. This isn't an individual app like Instagram or WhatsApp it's a whole category of technology, like the concept of automated factories, or container based shipping, or the internet itself. It could be decades, or longer. Or not.
But as a casual observer it's pretty easy to look around and notice that there really aren't any practical applications of autonomy with mass adoption, and conclude that it's going to be a minute, and that we'll definitely have ample time to notice as we slowly get closer.
Yup, I cited a few knowledgeable people saying the same thing here:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16353541
Here's my negative scenario: self-driving is "AI-complete"; you can't really hit all the edge cases without solving AI in general, which is more than 30 years away (Kurzweil is the wild optimist and predicts 2045).
edit: Although since writing that I have become aware that Kurzweil thinks the Turing test will be passed in 2029; the "singularity" is the 2045 date.
https://futurism.com/kurzweil-claims-that-the-singularity-wi...
In any case, I think it's realistic that level 4 self-driving cars won't be widely deployed for end-to-end trips until 2029-2045. This doesn't seem to be what many people think right now. They think it's going to be an "instant roll-out" like the iPhone -- either it works or it doesn't.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16353541
Here's my negative scenario: self-driving is "AI-complete"; you can't really hit all the edge cases without solving AI in general, which is more than 30 years away (Kurzweil is the wild optimist and predicts 2045).
edit: Although since writing that I have become aware that Kurzweil thinks the Turing test will be passed in 2029; the "singularity" is the 2045 date.
https://futurism.com/kurzweil-claims-that-the-singularity-wi...
In any case, I think it's realistic that level 4 self-driving cars won't be widely deployed for end-to-end trips until 2029-2045. This doesn't seem to be what many people think right now. They think it's going to be an "instant roll-out" like the iPhone -- either it works or it doesn't.
This is how everything happens, and it's why we're living in the future even though we never realized it. We have a small square in our pockets that can do real-time translation, you talk into it and it'll say the same thing in another language.
I remember reading about this exact thing in the 90s and thinking that it was completely incredible, but I didn't even notice it when it happened. We first got computers that could sort-of translate, but not impressively so, then computers that could sort-of speak, but not impressively so, then computers that could sort-of listen, but not impressively so. All these technologies improved, little by little, until they got to a point where they are pretty impressive, but we're used to them.
Cars are already going the same way, my 5-year-old car can already follow/match speed with the car in front of it and warn me about signs on the road. Little by little, it'll do more things on its own, until I won't be needed any more.
I remember reading about this exact thing in the 90s and thinking that it was completely incredible, but I didn't even notice it when it happened. We first got computers that could sort-of translate, but not impressively so, then computers that could sort-of speak, but not impressively so, then computers that could sort-of listen, but not impressively so. All these technologies improved, little by little, until they got to a point where they are pretty impressive, but we're used to them.
Cars are already going the same way, my 5-year-old car can already follow/match speed with the car in front of it and warn me about signs on the road. Little by little, it'll do more things on its own, until I won't be needed any more.
>> This is how everything happens, and it's why we're living in the future even though we never realized it. We have a small square in our pockets that can do real-time translation, you talk into it and it'll say the same thing in another language.
For arbitrary language pairs, it doesn't. Try translating between Greek and Chinese or Japanese at a level sufficient to get around town and do everyday, tourist-y things.
Machine translation works well between pairs of languages that are very similar and for which there are many parallel texts. It's all downhill from there (e.g. you have to go via an intermediary language, typically English, to get to the target language etc, which starts to seriously degrade performance).
Auto-cars are not different. In ideal (i.e. laboratory) conditions they may work sufficiently well. Diverge from those conditions and you're gambling with the passengers' lives.
This has been the case for a very long time. I learned something recently that surprised me. To phrase it as a quiz: when do you think was the first coast-to-coast (completely) driverless journey? Answer below.
______________
When are we going to get the first car, hands off the steering wheel, feet off the pedals, drive coast to coast in the US? Yeah, well, it actually happened in 1995 with the Navlab Project from Carnegie Mellon University.
Courtesy of Rodney Brooks:
https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/2nd-P...
For arbitrary language pairs, it doesn't. Try translating between Greek and Chinese or Japanese at a level sufficient to get around town and do everyday, tourist-y things.
Machine translation works well between pairs of languages that are very similar and for which there are many parallel texts. It's all downhill from there (e.g. you have to go via an intermediary language, typically English, to get to the target language etc, which starts to seriously degrade performance).
Auto-cars are not different. In ideal (i.e. laboratory) conditions they may work sufficiently well. Diverge from those conditions and you're gambling with the passengers' lives.
This has been the case for a very long time. I learned something recently that surprised me. To phrase it as a quiz: when do you think was the first coast-to-coast (completely) driverless journey? Answer below.
______________
When are we going to get the first car, hands off the steering wheel, feet off the pedals, drive coast to coast in the US? Yeah, well, it actually happened in 1995 with the Navlab Project from Carnegie Mellon University.
Courtesy of Rodney Brooks:
https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/2nd-P...
Your car has approached the point of difficulty for incremental improvement, which is when human attention is needed, but only very rarely. The way for an incremental approach to get beyond this is to have clearly-defined and well separated domains, one being where automation works safely without a human overseer, and the other being where advanced automation is not used. Furthermore, it must be obvious to drivers when they are one and when they are in the other; a distinction based on features of how the technology works does not cut it unless it also leads to an obvious distinction for the non-technical driver.
Limiting the use to highways appears to meet this criterion, but it does not yet do so, on account of problems, like stationary-obstacle detection and adverse weather, that are relevant to highway driving.
Limiting the use to highways appears to meet this criterion, but it does not yet do so, on account of problems, like stationary-obstacle detection and adverse weather, that are relevant to highway driving.
Limited access highway driving, a la an iteration or two on what GM is doing with Cadillac today, seems a pretty logical use case. Many people do a lot of it, it's boring, it's easy to get over-tired.
It doesn't fire up the people who want robo-Ubers but it would have a lot of benefits, including safety, and seems like a much more boundable problem. I could actually imagine something like this being approved for consumer use decades before the more general case.
It doesn't fire up the people who want robo-Ubers but it would have a lot of benefits, including safety, and seems like a much more boundable problem. I could actually imagine something like this being approved for consumer use decades before the more general case.
> The part that I can't figure out is why everyone seems to act like driverless cars will be some kind of all-at-once phase change transition instead of being incremental.
Because there is a significant difference in kind between human driving with driver assistance and self-driving, because having both on the road creates problems that's neither alone faces, and because once self-driving becomes viable for general use, regulatory and insurance factors will probably drive a rapid transition to a state where it's the only thing most people can do on most publicly accessible roads.
> or container based shipping
Intermodal container-based shipping was a fairly rapid global phase change, going quickly from introduction to international standards to global dominance of shipping. So it's kind of an odd example to use to counter the idea of a rapid phase change.
Because there is a significant difference in kind between human driving with driver assistance and self-driving, because having both on the road creates problems that's neither alone faces, and because once self-driving becomes viable for general use, regulatory and insurance factors will probably drive a rapid transition to a state where it's the only thing most people can do on most publicly accessible roads.
> or container based shipping
Intermodal container-based shipping was a fairly rapid global phase change, going quickly from introduction to international standards to global dominance of shipping. So it's kind of an odd example to use to counter the idea of a rapid phase change.
Phase change is a great metaphor. Once conditions are right, network effects between particles coordinate to rapidly produce a reaction in the entire substance. The catalyzing particles here are people. Once people see that autonomous driving is "here", the incentives will be too powerful to ignore, for businesses, politicians, and others who live by exploiting opportunities. So yes, I think once change comes, it will be rapid and fairly complete. Possibly at cost of human life.
Yes, and it's already happening. Automakers have already agreed to implement automatic collision avoidance in all their cars by 2022, IIRC, so there's one example.
While I'd agree that driverless cars are not here today, that the hype is over-doing it, and that Tesla has tried to push too fast, there is a huge economic incentive to have driverless cars. If a system can be built to replace long haul truck drivers with even being slightly safer than a human driver, that saves some on insurance and tons on labor, not to mention not having to limit driving time per day. With those kinds of incentives, trucking companies wouldn't blink an eye before going forward with it. People seem so focused on personal vehicles that they ignore that people won't want to give up control at first and don't realize how the change will take place.
> If a system can be built to replace long haul truck drivers with even being slightly safer than a human driver
I think such a system can be built. It's called a train.
I think such a system can be built. It's called a train.
That's a disingenuous comment. Trains don't deliver to stores directly. In the US, there is a severe infrastructure imbalance. Trains don't make sense for smaller (less than train-sized) loads.
Thanks for the softball: the practice of heavy trucks delivering directly to stores is a scourge on our cities, a practice that needs to be banned as quickly as possible.
Here in Berlin, two children were killed by these monsters on one day last month, with the children doing nothing wrong.
Here in Berlin, two children were killed by these monsters on one day last month, with the children doing nothing wrong.
I've always wanted a world in which pneumatic tubes played a bigger role - as they used to with mail in London and Paris. It used to be possible to get a letter in 4 hours.
I was walking down a street the other day, early morning, and it stank with food scraps, garbage - it was one of those maintenance streets you find at the back or sometimes even the front of fast food outlets, delis and cafes. The backend of that industry looks unappealing and smells as bad even though the businesses and city are doing everything they can to keep it organized.
With pneumatic tube rubbish disposal - which already exists - it would improve the quality of a large portion of the city, not to mention those children wouldn't have had to suffer.
More generally as I see it we are in the Dark Ages of underground tunnel making but if it could be made 1000x affordable lots of problems start to go away for our infrastructure. I've seen The Boring Company's proposals of course but I suspect it's on the wrong track. What you want is a creation capable of creating a criss-cross of tunnels - a whole network (similar to dark fiber, just waiting for land development so it can be turned on) which is deep beneath any other infrastructure and is linked to the surface through vertical channels e.g. a connection to somebody's house goes up, not across as we assume pipes are supposed to. I think the cost of extra pump power would be as nothing to getting rid of every legal and utility availability headache!
I was walking down a street the other day, early morning, and it stank with food scraps, garbage - it was one of those maintenance streets you find at the back or sometimes even the front of fast food outlets, delis and cafes. The backend of that industry looks unappealing and smells as bad even though the businesses and city are doing everything they can to keep it organized.
With pneumatic tube rubbish disposal - which already exists - it would improve the quality of a large portion of the city, not to mention those children wouldn't have had to suffer.
More generally as I see it we are in the Dark Ages of underground tunnel making but if it could be made 1000x affordable lots of problems start to go away for our infrastructure. I've seen The Boring Company's proposals of course but I suspect it's on the wrong track. What you want is a creation capable of creating a criss-cross of tunnels - a whole network (similar to dark fiber, just waiting for land development so it can be turned on) which is deep beneath any other infrastructure and is linked to the surface through vertical channels e.g. a connection to somebody's house goes up, not across as we assume pipes are supposed to. I think the cost of extra pump power would be as nothing to getting rid of every legal and utility availability headache!
What you are asking for existed 100 years ago. Cheap oil killed it. Oil isn't so cheap anymore, maybe it would be viable again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tunnel_Company
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tunnel_Company
We must go back to the future!
Seems like a recurring theme. It's near a half century for the moon landings. Should revisit the concept of batteries too. I'm reading a book called This Victorian Life and am constantly impressed by lots of little innovations now forgotten. Two concepts I think we'll have to revisit: heliostats for indoor natural lighting and terrariums aka self contained biospheres for space/underground.
Seems like a recurring theme. It's near a half century for the moon landings. Should revisit the concept of batteries too. I'm reading a book called This Victorian Life and am constantly impressed by lots of little innovations now forgotten. Two concepts I think we'll have to revisit: heliostats for indoor natural lighting and terrariums aka self contained biospheres for space/underground.
Here they only destroy all the tarmac in just six months, but surely what you mention is way worse.
I don't think "slightly safer" is enough. Slightly safer would likely be determined based on the average accident rate, but the problems lie farther out on the bell curve. It is one thing if, say, a driverless Model 3 hits a bus full of people: almost everyone involved woud probably walk away from that. But if a driverless Tesla Semi hauling two full trailers of heavy batteries does the same thing, the results would be horrific. Lawyers would appear out of nowhere, claim that people aren't perfect sure, but the trucking company took an undue risk on a technology with known flaws etc. Bad press everywhere, said trucking company then gets sued out of existence, etc.
Given our litigious society, I think that driverless systems for big trucks need to be far far safer than the human-guided equivalent. When accidents happen, they have the potential to do far more damage.
Given our litigious society, I think that driverless systems for big trucks need to be far far safer than the human-guided equivalent. When accidents happen, they have the potential to do far more damage.
> While there is no doubting the scale of this industry, with billions being invested every year, none of the OEMs has yet made a penny from selling a driverless car. This money, benefiting these exhibitors, is therefore a punt, a high-stakes bet there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
For OEMs, I think it's less about a pot of gold and more of a defensive move. They're willing to throw money at trying to mitigate a huge business risk.
These companies might not know (or even have an opinion on) how close the leaders like Waymo are to making it work. But they know that, if it does work, a new era will begin when nobody will be able to sell a car without it.
And it's almost moot whether they believe it will work. They're protected as long as they're putting sufficient resources into it that they stay roughly as far along as others.
For OEMs, I think it's less about a pot of gold and more of a defensive move. They're willing to throw money at trying to mitigate a huge business risk.
These companies might not know (or even have an opinion on) how close the leaders like Waymo are to making it work. But they know that, if it does work, a new era will begin when nobody will be able to sell a car without it.
And it's almost moot whether they believe it will work. They're protected as long as they're putting sufficient resources into it that they stay roughly as far along as others.
Isn't the author already wrong? There are Waymo autonomous cars operating right now on public roads in Chandler, Arizona without safety drivers. Sure, those are very carefully mapped and selected routes, but they are not closed routes, they have to deal with anything that can happen on a public road. As any engineer knows, the last 10% is always harder than expected, but scaling from 0.1% to 90% coverage seems fairly straightforward IMO.
I don't understand how the people considering driverless cars infeasible can reconcile this with what is happening already. Why would Waymo order 80,000 cars in the next year if they thought their project is all hype?
Personally, I’d be happy with just automated freeway driving. That seems like an easier problem to solve (no pedestrians, complex traffic controls, cars going the other way or turning across your path, and visibility is usually pretty good). Why not focus on and perfect that first?
While driving on California freeways I have seen: pedestrians, complex traffic controls (law enforcement rerouting traffic or running moving breaks due to incidents), cars going the other way (drunk or confused), and terrible visibility (fog, snow, dust, heavy rain). It's going to take decades before automated freeway driving is perfected. Those edge cases can't just be ignored.
You can to at least some degree though once you've imposed the constraint that there needs to be a competent licensed driver in the car because they need to handle the endpoints in any case.
Certainly, the car needs to be able to recognize conditions where it needs to turn over control with, say, one minute warning. And we're not at that point today. But one can imagine things like radio beacons for construction zones for example. It's not easy but it seems much easier than the more general case and it's also possible to get too hung up on truly weird corner cases like traffic going down the freeway in the wrong direction.
Certainly, the car needs to be able to recognize conditions where it needs to turn over control with, say, one minute warning. And we're not at that point today. But one can imagine things like radio beacons for construction zones for example. It's not easy but it seems much easier than the more general case and it's also possible to get too hung up on truly weird corner cases like traffic going down the freeway in the wrong direction.
You're never going to get a one-minute warning about stupid people doing stupid things. Like when some idiot decides to play Frogger across four lanes of traffic because his car stalled out in the median. I suppose we could just accept some collisions in those cases but it would be a mess.
> Those edge cases can't just be ignored.
A general enough system would have no edge cases. It is IMO the required solution, and a driver always on the defensive is what we all are, at lease here in South America.
Just following the rules would have killed me years ago. Other drivers are reckless.
A general enough system would have no edge cases. It is IMO the required solution, and a driver always on the defensive is what we all are, at lease here in South America.
Just following the rules would have killed me years ago. Other drivers are reckless.
This seems fixated on driverless vehicles' availability for purchase by the general public. I thought it was becoming pretty clear that, early on at least, the common approach is fleets operated by manufacturers, a la Waymo?
One thing I have never understood about the driverless vision is how it seems to ignore economically significant problems like (a) traffic congestion and (b) extremely inefficient energy use in transportation, especially personal vehicles.
Just looking at the first problem, a four lane highway is a four lane highway, regardless of how vehicles comport themselves. It seems more productive to solve congestion by getting at least some of the vehicles off the ground using emerging passenger drone technology. [0] That incidentally looks like an easier place to attack automation as there are fewer corner cases. Commercial aircraft achieved high levels of automated flight decades ago.
[0] https://www.dezeen.com/2017/04/28/kitty-hawk-prototype-perso...
Just looking at the first problem, a four lane highway is a four lane highway, regardless of how vehicles comport themselves. It seems more productive to solve congestion by getting at least some of the vehicles off the ground using emerging passenger drone technology. [0] That incidentally looks like an easier place to attack automation as there are fewer corner cases. Commercial aircraft achieved high levels of automated flight decades ago.
[0] https://www.dezeen.com/2017/04/28/kitty-hawk-prototype-perso...
I wouldn't be surprised to see it make congestion worse, that one hour journey to work that was unacceptable before might become bearable if you can read a book or surf the web during your trip.
> Just looking at the first problem, a four lane highway is a four lane highway, regardless of how vehicles comport themselves.
Lanes are as wide as they are and following distances are as long as they are because people are terrible at driving. A mostly-driverless 4-lane highway could more than double capacity just by reducing following distances when computers rather than human beings are making the decision when to brake and how hard to brake.
Humans also cause traffic jams by causing accidents or rubbernecking at accidents - that'll get better too.
Lanes are as wide as they are and following distances are as long as they are because people are terrible at driving. A mostly-driverless 4-lane highway could more than double capacity just by reducing following distances when computers rather than human beings are making the decision when to brake and how hard to brake.
Humans also cause traffic jams by causing accidents or rubbernecking at accidents - that'll get better too.
This would need some modeling to prove that you actually get that level of efficiency. Autonomous vehicles have a brownfield problem in that they would have to share the road capacity with conventional vehicles for a fair distance into the future. That consideration alone would likely reduce the efficiency gain considerably.
On the other hand if you could distribute traffic flow vertically the potential for scaling goes up considerably. It's a hard problem to solve (read: expensive) but building roads is not exactly cheap either.
BTW I'm not against autonomous vehicles. It would be great if they worked. But I think we're more likely to see near-term investment payoffs using it for incremental safety improvements, something that already seems to be happening.
On the other hand if you could distribute traffic flow vertically the potential for scaling goes up considerably. It's a hard problem to solve (read: expensive) but building roads is not exactly cheap either.
BTW I'm not against autonomous vehicles. It would be great if they worked. But I think we're more likely to see near-term investment payoffs using it for incremental safety improvements, something that already seems to be happening.
The basic problem is that generally more capacity invites more traffic. This isn't solved with autonomous vehicles. As well I expect more empty traffic.
Example: I currently drive to work 20km. As my wife needs occasionally as well, we have two. With an autonomous car we could forgo one and I send it back after I arrive at work. In the evening it'll pick me up again.
Example: I currently drive to work 20km. As my wife needs occasionally as well, we have two. With an autonomous car we could forgo one and I send it back after I arrive at work. In the evening it'll pick me up again.
In cities a substantial fraction of traffic is people circling the block trying to find parking near their destination and some fraction of traffic holdups is from people stopping in a lane while waiting for somebody else to pull out of a parking space. These problems are substantially reduced with autonomous vehicles. Instead of slowly going around the block looking for a parking spot, you get out at your destination and the car drives away to some place where parking is cheap and a spot is known to be available. (When you need to leave, you tell the car via an app and it comes back to get you.)
Self-driving cars can park far more densely without fear of being blocked in and can park inconveniently far away while still being reasonably available. Thus cities will need less on-street or near-street parking and can reclaim a lot of that space for traffic or transit or bikes or people or commerce.
If your wife only occasionally needs a car, couldn't she call a local on-demand one - an automated uber? That seems cheaper than paying to send an empty car on two daily 20km trips...
Self-driving cars can park far more densely without fear of being blocked in and can park inconveniently far away while still being reasonably available. Thus cities will need less on-street or near-street parking and can reclaim a lot of that space for traffic or transit or bikes or people or commerce.
If your wife only occasionally needs a car, couldn't she call a local on-demand one - an automated uber? That seems cheaper than paying to send an empty car on two daily 20km trips...
Automation for flight is easier because there is a central authority controlling all (major) flights. Airspace and behavior therein is very tightly regulated, and the automation has a lot of dependencies upon extra-vehicular infrastructure (navigation aids, approach radio beacons, etc). There's also relatively few planes in the air at any given time. Scaling that up would not be trivial.
As for that Kittyhawk prototype - one prop failure at altitude and the pilot is dead. There's a reason they're testing over water at very low altitudes. Quadcopters have a very bad failure mode: they always crash. You want at least six motors, if not more, to avoid a crash every time a single motor fails. But, of course, more motors requires more battery power, which raises the weight, which makes it less maneuverable, and so forth.
From a pure "worst case failure mode" ground traffic is a better first automation target for moving small quantities of people.
As for that Kittyhawk prototype - one prop failure at altitude and the pilot is dead. There's a reason they're testing over water at very low altitudes. Quadcopters have a very bad failure mode: they always crash. You want at least six motors, if not more, to avoid a crash every time a single motor fails. But, of course, more motors requires more battery power, which raises the weight, which makes it less maneuverable, and so forth.
From a pure "worst case failure mode" ground traffic is a better first automation target for moving small quantities of people.
You are right that it's not an easy problem to solve but I think you would also agree the economic incentives are there and you don't necessarily have to have people in the vehicles to see improvements on the problems I cited above.
Amazon's scheme for drone delivery seemed kind of crazy at first glance but it does have some sound economics behind it. Here's a reference that seems to have a reasonably balanced view: http://thedronegirl.com/2017/05/07/drone-delivery-economics-...
Amazon's scheme for drone delivery seemed kind of crazy at first glance but it does have some sound economics behind it. Here's a reference that seems to have a reasonably balanced view: http://thedronegirl.com/2017/05/07/drone-delivery-economics-...
> One thing I have never understood about the driverless vision is how it seems to ignore economically significant problems like (a) traffic congestion
Capacity is a function of maximum density at speed, which both consistency of behaviour and speed and accuracy of detection and reaction have a role in setting. Automated driving — if it is exclusive — addresses congestion (provided added “deadhead” runs don't offset max density gains), and that's always been part of the self-driving vision, even back when it was about “smart roads” and not smart cars on dumb roads.
> (b) extremely inefficient energy use in transportation, especially personal vehicles.
Self-driving might help address that, too, as it allows lower friction exchanges between local personal transport and higher capacity—and higher efficiency—shared long-range transport.
Capacity is a function of maximum density at speed, which both consistency of behaviour and speed and accuracy of detection and reaction have a role in setting. Automated driving — if it is exclusive — addresses congestion (provided added “deadhead” runs don't offset max density gains), and that's always been part of the self-driving vision, even back when it was about “smart roads” and not smart cars on dumb roads.
> (b) extremely inefficient energy use in transportation, especially personal vehicles.
Self-driving might help address that, too, as it allows lower friction exchanges between local personal transport and higher capacity—and higher efficiency—shared long-range transport.
It will happen but the timelines are looking much longer than people were promising two years ago to get investment. The reality of the difficulty of the edge cases and long term reliability has been made more clear and the hype is fading. Now it's time to slog through the real and difficult work of making what we have reliable and safe.
We're going to get driverless cars one way or another. Even if the problems are much more intractable than we first gave them credit for people are too clever.
Take driving in the snow, for instance. It might be completely impossible to do it safely for the next twenty years by having a computer manage the drive path, but designs might create the ability for cars to form mini-trains where the lead car is driven by a human and the cars fall in line together. Then you could still get in a self-driving car, it could still get you from Toronto to Ottawa. It could even get you right to your front door! They'd just have to pay some train drivers (conductors?) when the weather is too harsh for to put it in full auto mode.
We're going to get there. The benefits are too obvious and we can work around the persistent problems.
Take driving in the snow, for instance. It might be completely impossible to do it safely for the next twenty years by having a computer manage the drive path, but designs might create the ability for cars to form mini-trains where the lead car is driven by a human and the cars fall in line together. Then you could still get in a self-driving car, it could still get you from Toronto to Ottawa. It could even get you right to your front door! They'd just have to pay some train drivers (conductors?) when the weather is too harsh for to put it in full auto mode.
We're going to get there. The benefits are too obvious and we can work around the persistent problems.
>We're going to get driverless cars one way or another.
Sure we will, no doubt about that.
The question is when?
In 10 to 20 years from now level 4 sounds reasonable, in 2 to 5 years from now it sounds not, notwithstanding the (daily) announces about this or that new autonomous driving system or related "breakthrough".
Sure we will, no doubt about that.
The question is when?
In 10 to 20 years from now level 4 sounds reasonable, in 2 to 5 years from now it sounds not, notwithstanding the (daily) announces about this or that new autonomous driving system or related "breakthrough".
Obvious question: why just not take the train? In your example I’d have to depend on other strangers for my private travel, one of the most important things that made me purchase my first car in my 30s, I don’t want that.
I actually think the European model is superior (dense towns with trains between), but we have what we have.
I'd rather depend just on there being a handful of other people who want to go where I want to go than on there being an active railroad as well.
At least in the US, transit is unfortunately quite bad on average, and that doesn't look to change anytime soon in most areas.
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Snow seems like one of the easier problems, honestly. Pretty much all the "technical" problems seem pretty straightforward. Waymo already posted an article where they talked about how they can filter falling snow out of their LIDAR input, for example.
It's the social problems that are hard for AI, like how to handle a construction zone that looks like you need to break the law to get around. Those don't always have easily generalizable answers.
It's the social problems that are hard for AI, like how to handle a construction zone that looks like you need to break the law to get around. Those don't always have easily generalizable answers.
> It's the social problems that are hard for AI, like how to handle a construction zone that looks like you need to break the law to get around.
For these cases, the car could have a manual mode (?)
For these cases, the car could have a manual mode (?)
A huge benefit was people without a license being able to use the car alone.
So construction signs now need a QR code on them to provide guidance. Companies that work on the road like that are presumably regulated somehow, right?
How can it be both hard to handle a construction zone that you need to break the law to get around and also easy to handle snow piles that you need to break the law to get around?
Wolmar's argument is horribly uncompelling and betrays a bizzare technophobia. He talks about the hardware as if they're dark magic tools and his argument for the death of the cars is that reality hasn't lived up to press releases. This is an argument made with no understanding of the technological underpinnings of driverless cars, and while I agree that driverless cars are farther away than the press would have you believe, the author needs to dig in further to get a real understanding of what he's discussing.
The substance of this article can be sumarized as "I talked to a bunch of people at a convention, and some had concerns, ohh, and I wrote a book about how I'm skeptical of driverless cars."
Regardless of how you feel about the future of driverless cars, this is a safe article to skip - there's no content.
Regardless of how you feel about the future of driverless cars, this is a safe article to skip - there's no content.
There have literally been hundreds of threads advocating self driving cars saying it's here and now, max 10 years, and rubbishing anyone advocating caution.
Since the hype and exuberance was entirely self created, how can anyone else be blamed? This is like blaming others for taking you seriously.
Since the hype and exuberance was entirely self created, how can anyone else be blamed? This is like blaming others for taking you seriously.
How many years did it take for cars to go from beta to wide spread use?
It would be nice if it would happen faster, we could cut the number of car accidents in half, car related fatalities by a quarter, and zero speeding tickets...
It would be nice if it would happen faster, we could cut the number of car accidents in half, car related fatalities by a quarter, and zero speeding tickets...
What would a TOS look like for a self driving car?
“Shall hold manufacturer, software developer, etc not liable for any injury or death from the result of using car...”
“Shall hold manufacturer, software developer, etc not liable for any injury or death from the result of using car...”
How does a pedestrian agree to that TOS?
By being outdoors. It's the same way as you currently "consent" to third-party cookies by visiting a site.
Wouldn't we need "smart" roads to make driverless cars operate at the same safety level as, say, airplanes?
Right now roadways are designed for maximizing the value of the kinds of sensors that evolved in humans. We need roadways designed for the kinds of sensors we can manufacture. Imo, that's how we'll get driverless cars.
I thought I just read that Google will have some operating in Arizona "by the end of this year" ...no? These things are basically a solved problem already and just waiting to get approval.
My 2016 23k Honda Civic can drive itself down the highway. Gas, break, stear - it can do it all on a clearly marked highway. As can Subarus and probably many others. I just know what my friends and coworkers have. Saying no car maker has shipped anything is a blatent lie.
For that to happen does that 2016 Honda Civic have to have a driver in it?
That's how you can tell if it's driverless.
That's how you can tell if it's driverless.
You don't have to have ubiquitous Turing-test-passing level 5+ robot vehicles. Lane Keep Assist style things are a good start.
Lane assist is unimpressive, requirements, technology and capability wise. Also, a fourteen year old can do it from the passenger seat.
(Also they don't really work reliably: try using lane assist with roadworks markings and watch your car veer off into the barricades. Or just too-unclear-for-machine—but-blatantly-obvious-for-human markings, like the dead Tesla driver from a few weeks ago encountered. Even a fourteen year old doesn't make that sort of mistake.)
(Also they don't really work reliably: try using lane assist with roadworks markings and watch your car veer off into the barricades. Or just too-unclear-for-machine—but-blatantly-obvious-for-human markings, like the dead Tesla driver from a few weeks ago encountered. Even a fourteen year old doesn't make that sort of mistake.)
What kind of highway? We have a 2016 Outback with EyeSight and basically never use it. Lane keeping beeps for every line of tar sealant on the road. Adaptive cruise control puts the pedal to the metal once it's 2 MPH lower than the set speed. Like, I don't want the engine to rev to 8K RPM while I'm going uphill, alright? Has nobody heard of an easing curve?
Sounds like just a really poor implementation. My 2011 BMW does all of those things really well. I'd have hoped that safety systems like this wouldn't fall into the 'you get what you pay for' category, but I guess that's the case.
Not sure how to address that except through more regulation which doesn't exactly help on the innovation front...
Not sure how to address that except through more regulation which doesn't exactly help on the innovation front...
For another perspective though, my dad got Mobileye on a new Outback recently and he really likes it.
Though this article sounds plausible, I became more skeptical when I noticed he put the word "facility" in scare quotes.
The time it takes to get from say a car that just drives about randomly to a car that drives pretty well 75% of the time is about a day's worth of work with today's technology. Going from 75-80% is a week or two. 80-85% is months. Getting to the 90% is years, and who knows what we need for 99+%.
I did a self-driving car in GTA V project that streamed on Twitch 24/7. If the car wasn't improving noticeably day by day, people were getting angry and frustrated, as if the car was meant to be perfectly driving within months, surely!
There's definitely a major disconnect between the hype and reality of what the challenge of self-driving cars is. The bubble is just simply bursting at the moment, but the dream itself is not dying amongst actual engineers. It's just dying for the people who never understood how absolutely challenging the problem actually is.