Hungarian opera singers declaring themselves African-American(index.hu)
index.hu
Hungarian opera singers declaring themselves African-American
https://index.hu/english/2019/04/11/porgy_and_bess_hungary_all_black_cast_statement_african_heritage/
35 comments
"I won't lie but I'm fine with saying meaningless things." - atheist agreeing to become a godfather.
Homo sapiens is an african species and the only extant species, so technically all americans are afro-americans and all europeans are afro-europeans.
Banning white people from playing black music or representing black culture (or claiming that this is disrespectful for the black people that created it), is as ludicrous as would be banning black people from using light bulbs, microphones, tv, spanish/electric guitars, pianos, cars... invented by white people, therefore "white culture" (and often built by asians).
Banning white people from playing black music or representing black culture (or claiming that this is disrespectful for the black people that created it), is as ludicrous as would be banning black people from using light bulbs, microphones, tv, spanish/electric guitars, pianos, cars... invented by white people, therefore "white culture" (and often built by asians).
What's more, I think restricting "black" culture to black people only, carries the risk of keeping it fringe and preventing it from becoming mainstream.
Now Porgy & Bess is solidly mainstream of course, and black culture is absolutely a vital part of its context and necessary to understand and appreciate it, and there's absolutely something to be said for ensuring that it won't be separated from that context, but I think it's also possible to have it performed by white Hungarians in a way that does justice to that context, and I certainly think it's important that white Hungarians are able to enjoy it.
And then there's also the option of translating it to a different ethnic group in a somewhat comparable situation. Not sure what a good fit would be in Hungary; Roma maybe? Muslim immigrants? That would certainly make it more immediately relevant.
Now Porgy & Bess is solidly mainstream of course, and black culture is absolutely a vital part of its context and necessary to understand and appreciate it, and there's absolutely something to be said for ensuring that it won't be separated from that context, but I think it's also possible to have it performed by white Hungarians in a way that does justice to that context, and I certainly think it's important that white Hungarians are able to enjoy it.
And then there's also the option of translating it to a different ethnic group in a somewhat comparable situation. Not sure what a good fit would be in Hungary; Roma maybe? Muslim immigrants? That would certainly make it more immediately relevant.
Not from a Marxist oppressor/oppressed perspective.
Seems like a clear violation of Gershwin's wishes to me. It's a great work, I imagine Gershwin wanted it to be a gift to the intended recipients.
I think it's wrong.
I think it's wrong.
moomin(3)
When I was at school in the US I had a minor medical procedure. One of the forms required me to list my race.
My doctor was Egyptian and having grown up in the middle east myself we joked about whether he qualified as African american or if he could medically identify my race. Race has no medical definitions and worldwide few courts would ever dare tell someone their race. This case is going nowhere. The opera has made a valid artistic point and won't be forced to change the cast.
That said, the US is one of the few places where courts remain willing to determine race and/or religious identity. It isn't common but it does come up (wills, immigration/asylum, some issues involving native american tribes, and cases where people have lied on various forms). If this case can find a way into a US court the opera would not win.
That said, the US is one of the few places where courts remain willing to determine race and/or religious identity. It isn't common but it does come up (wills, immigration/asylum, some issues involving native american tribes, and cases where people have lied on various forms). If this case can find a way into a US court the opera would not win.
> Race has no medical definitions
On the contrary, race is extremely useful information in certain medical contexts. Black Americans have different risk profiles for certain cardio-vascular conditions than white Americans. And European Jews suffer a higher incidence of certain recessive genetic diseases (so much so that genetic screening is basically routine for couples where both parents have Ashkenazi ancestry).
On the contrary, race is extremely useful information in certain medical contexts. Black Americans have different risk profiles for certain cardio-vascular conditions than white Americans. And European Jews suffer a higher incidence of certain recessive genetic diseases (so much so that genetic screening is basically routine for couples where both parents have Ashkenazi ancestry).
You are describing the ethnicity, not the race. Race refers only to the skin color of the person, whereas ethnicity refers to the cultural and lineage aspect of that person.
The line between the two terms is blurry, but race is certainly not strictly about skin color. Here is the definition of race in my computer's dictionary:
> Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics.
Then, further down:
> a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group
> Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics.
Then, further down:
> a group of people sharing the same culture, history, language, etc.; an ethnic group
If you look up the definitions of those words using the 1828 dictionary, you get something very interesting.
ETH'NICAL, adjective [Latin ethnicus; Gr. from nation from the root of G. heide, heath, woods, whence heathen. See Heathen.]
Heathen; pagan; pertaining to the gentiles or nations not converted to christianity; opposed to Jewish and Christian.
ETH'NIC, noun A heathen; a pagan.
RACE, noun [Latin radix and radius having the same original. This word coincides in origin with rod, ray, radiate, etc.]
1. The lineage of a family, or continued series of descendants from a parent who is called the stock. A race is the series of descendants indefinitely. Thus all mankind are called the race of Adam; the Israelites are of the race of Abraham and Jacob. Thus we speak of a race of kings, the race of Clovis or Charlemagne; a race of nobles, etc.
ETH'NICAL, adjective [Latin ethnicus; Gr. from nation from the root of G. heide, heath, woods, whence heathen. See Heathen.]
Heathen; pagan; pertaining to the gentiles or nations not converted to christianity; opposed to Jewish and Christian.
ETH'NIC, noun A heathen; a pagan.
RACE, noun [Latin radix and radius having the same original. This word coincides in origin with rod, ray, radiate, etc.]
1. The lineage of a family, or continued series of descendants from a parent who is called the stock. A race is the series of descendants indefinitely. Thus all mankind are called the race of Adam; the Israelites are of the race of Abraham and Jacob. Thus we speak of a race of kings, the race of Clovis or Charlemagne; a race of nobles, etc.
Which is more complicated by the US concept of an "american race", something that isn't even seen as racial in term of skin color. It is used to draw a line between those descendants of the stock "real" Americans.
To quote the TV Show American Dad's theme song "Shining a salute to the American race." ... a line I thought would be very controversial but just isn't.
To quote the TV Show American Dad's theme song "Shining a salute to the American race." ... a line I thought would be very controversial but just isn't.
FWIW, I have never encountered the concept of the "American race". Are you sure it's actually a thing? To me the line from American Dad's theme song seems like a joke (since America has many races).
According to Webster's 1828 dictionary
AMER'ICAN, noun A native of America; originally applied to the aboriginals, or copper-colored races, found here by the Europeans; but now applied to the descendants of Europeans born in America.
AMER'ICAN, noun A native of America; originally applied to the aboriginals, or copper-colored races, found here by the Europeans; but now applied to the descendants of Europeans born in America.
That's nice, but:
1. It's a definition for the word 'American', not the phrase 'American race'.
2. It's from 1828. I don't think usage from 190 years ago is very relevant. Language changes pretty quickly.
3. That does not match what OP was talking about. They were talking about a further distinction within white Americans. Unless I'm mistaken.
1. It's a definition for the word 'American', not the phrase 'American race'.
2. It's from 1828. I don't think usage from 190 years ago is very relevant. Language changes pretty quickly.
3. That does not match what OP was talking about. They were talking about a further distinction within white Americans. Unless I'm mistaken.
If the performances only take place in Hungary, it's pretty unlikely that US court has jurisdiction.
Gershwin was american. I assume his kids/estate is american. So this involved a contract between a European opera company and US persons regarding a work protected by US copyright law. They could probably file in a US court and a court may well determine that the US is the better place the hear the case. (When between a person and a corporation, US court tend side with the person's location on issues of jurisdiction. If someone is going to get on a plane, they think it easier for the corporation.) It is a possibility.
> a work protected by US copyright law
I don't think this is entirely correct. It's only protected by US law in the US - in all other countries, it's protected by their local laws. That's the reason for international agreements to harmonize copyright between countries, such as the Berne convention.
I don't think this is entirely correct. It's only protected by US law in the US - in all other countries, it's protected by their local laws. That's the reason for international agreements to harmonize copyright between countries, such as the Berne convention.
> work protected by US copyright law.
Only within the US jurisdiction. US law does not superpose or replace the laws of other jurisdictions.
Only within the US jurisdiction. US law does not superpose or replace the laws of other jurisdictions.
I said the work was protected by US copyright law, not that US copyright law would necessarily be used in the case. That the opera is a US work can be relevant to jurisdiction rather than the case in chief.
Copyright would probably not be an issue. This looks like a simple contract dispute, a debate re whether one party is abiding a term in a licensing agreement.
Copyright would probably not be an issue. This looks like a simple contract dispute, a debate re whether one party is abiding a term in a licensing agreement.
Are people obliged to abide by an obviously racially discriminatory contract under EU law?
If EU law is applied, no. If American law control, probably yes. This is a contract between an american and an EU organization so there will be a fight over which law controls the contract. Due to the split between the various US states, American contracts normally have some language stating which jurisdiction's laws should be used to interpret the contract. If this was a stock licensing deal from the estate it probably names a US state.
"As per the request of heirs of Gershwin's catalogue, only Afro-American singers are allowed to perform the piece, and maybe this was due to a mistake, but the fact is that the Hungarian Opera was offered a contract last year that did not have the famous "all-black cast" clause, which they ended up going for."
The requirement of allowing only Afro-American singers seems unreasonably restrictive if you want it to be performed outside the US. And having an all-black cast is not the same thing. Not all black people are American. Not all black people trace their ancestry to Africa (except in the way all humans eventually do, of course). And not all Africans are black.
So mixing up black and Afro-American may usually end up being the same thing when you're in the US, outside the US it becomes a lot more complex. It becomes a requirement to hire people from the US and a ban on local singers who didn't emigrate from the US.
There is of course the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule. The piece is explicitly about black Americans. Does that mean it can't be performed by non-Americans? By people who aren't black? If it turns out there are no black opera singers in Hungary, does this mean Hungarians shouldn't be exposed to this important piece of black culture? It does feel a bit like one of those cases where a totally justified attempt to to justice to an oppressed minority in the US turns into American cultural imperialism once you leave the country. Then again, it is a piece of American culture.
The requirement of allowing only Afro-American singers seems unreasonably restrictive if you want it to be performed outside the US. And having an all-black cast is not the same thing. Not all black people are American. Not all black people trace their ancestry to Africa (except in the way all humans eventually do, of course). And not all Africans are black.
So mixing up black and Afro-American may usually end up being the same thing when you're in the US, outside the US it becomes a lot more complex. It becomes a requirement to hire people from the US and a ban on local singers who didn't emigrate from the US.
There is of course the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule. The piece is explicitly about black Americans. Does that mean it can't be performed by non-Americans? By people who aren't black? If it turns out there are no black opera singers in Hungary, does this mean Hungarians shouldn't be exposed to this important piece of black culture? It does feel a bit like one of those cases where a totally justified attempt to to justice to an oppressed minority in the US turns into American cultural imperialism once you leave the country. Then again, it is a piece of American culture.
Not the first to make this claim https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Dolezal
Some extra context from the linked Guardian article:
>The opera house was in the news last year when it cancelled 15 performances of the musical Billy Elliot after rightwing media claimed it could “turn children gay”.
>The opera house was in the news last year when it cancelled 15 performances of the musical Billy Elliot after rightwing media claimed it could “turn children gay”.
Context: this is about an opera by George Gershwin, Porgy and Bess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porgy_and_Bess . Apparently, Gershwin's heirs request that "an African-American cast" be used in performance. This might actually make some sense as the opera itself is a bit divisive towards Black culture, and there is a rather long history of performances by non-African Americans tending to make it even more so. This statement by the opera cast can be seen as a clarification that they did intend to properly respect the work, although one can of course argue about this.
Weaponized culture.
Why is this posted on HackerNews? I mean, I know the reason why, but what's the handwavy-low-effort reason that it's here?
I find these clauses distasteful. What of a requirement that performers be all-white? If we are going to judge people on their merits and form an international community of humanity free of racist restrictions, we go all in.
I wonder if they could just treat this clause as non-existent since in Hungarian law racial discrimination is illegal and binding agreements can't contain illegal clauses.