Should C Programmers Learn C++, Go or Rust? (2018)(ds9a.nl)
ds9a.nl
Should C Programmers Learn C++, Go or Rust? (2018)
https://ds9a.nl/articles/posts/cpp-rust-go/
56 comments
Equating C and C++ must seem compelling when one is exposed to C++ as it is written at Mozilla and at Google. Both places enforce coding standards that require programming under what amount to 1990s conventions, with a few modern tricks added. The consequence is that you get few of the benefits of modern C++, but all the costs.
Google and Mozilla might never get out from under their burden of enforced bad coding habits. It is a mistake to attribute to a language the flaws of one's corporate culture.
C++ is not at all under threat of being replaced. The number of C++ programmers is increasing at a much greater rate than of Rust programmers, and the language is evolving quite rapidly after its stagnation in the '00s. If you learned C++ before you could use C++11, you will be surprised at how much more fun C++ is now. Coding C++20 will be even more fun.
Google and Mozilla might never get out from under their burden of enforced bad coding habits. It is a mistake to attribute to a language the flaws of one's corporate culture.
C++ is not at all under threat of being replaced. The number of C++ programmers is increasing at a much greater rate than of Rust programmers, and the language is evolving quite rapidly after its stagnation in the '00s. If you learned C++ before you could use C++11, you will be surprised at how much more fun C++ is now. Coding C++20 will be even more fun.
> Equating C and C++ must seem compelling when one is exposed to C++ as it is written at Mozilla and at Google. Both places enforce coding standards that require programming under what amount to 1990s conventions, with a few modern tricks added. The consequence is that you get few of the benefits of modern C++, but all the costs.
That's just not true. Both organizations use "modern C++" everywhere. The new C++ proposals tend to come from large companies such as Google, after all.
People tend to assume that every new release of C++ will automatically solve all the problems with the previous releases until proven otherwise. This has always mystified me. Nobody has demonstrated that any new version of C++ has been able to stem the flood of memory safety problems.
It's interesting that few people can actually articulate why modern C++ supposedly solves the memory safety issues, other than just mentioning smart pointers. Smart pointers actually do very little--shared_ptr can bump reference counts sometimes and that's about it--and what little benefit comes from smart pointers is generally outweighed by all the new ways to get use-after-free in modern C++. Free happens invisibly in subtle places in modern C++, while in C free happens explicitly when you write "free()", which tends to be safer. In my opinion, modern C++ is significantly less safe than classic C++, which is in turn significantly less safe than C.
That's just not true. Both organizations use "modern C++" everywhere. The new C++ proposals tend to come from large companies such as Google, after all.
People tend to assume that every new release of C++ will automatically solve all the problems with the previous releases until proven otherwise. This has always mystified me. Nobody has demonstrated that any new version of C++ has been able to stem the flood of memory safety problems.
It's interesting that few people can actually articulate why modern C++ supposedly solves the memory safety issues, other than just mentioning smart pointers. Smart pointers actually do very little--shared_ptr can bump reference counts sometimes and that's about it--and what little benefit comes from smart pointers is generally outweighed by all the new ways to get use-after-free in modern C++. Free happens invisibly in subtle places in modern C++, while in C free happens explicitly when you write "free()", which tends to be safer. In my opinion, modern C++ is significantly less safe than classic C++, which is in turn significantly less safe than C.
I've grepped through the codebase of Firefox some time ago, and it was very very far from being modern, with a huge amount of naked news and deletes.
This is a straw man. Nobody in the C++ community action like the next release is a silver bullet. On the other hand, people in glass houses...
Smart pointers help (but do not solve) memory issues by tying together access and resource destruction. If you access a resource through an object, and the resource don't go away until the object does, it makes it harder to access the resource after it's gone. Not impossible since you can do various things like grab a raw pointer/reference to the smart pointer and then call reset. In practice though, this doesn't occur that often; Murphy is a bigger problem than Machiavelli.
You're entitled to your opinion but it goes directly against my experience, and most industry experience. Most C and old C++ codebases, memory management over time just becomes a tangled mess of ad hoc delete calls. With smart pointers this just hasn't happened and in practice spent tiny fractions of my time still dealing with memory related issues. A language with e.g. real reflection would be a way bigger boost to my productivity than improved memory management.
This is a straw man. Nobody in the C++ community action like the next release is a silver bullet. On the other hand, people in glass houses...
Smart pointers help (but do not solve) memory issues by tying together access and resource destruction. If you access a resource through an object, and the resource don't go away until the object does, it makes it harder to access the resource after it's gone. Not impossible since you can do various things like grab a raw pointer/reference to the smart pointer and then call reset. In practice though, this doesn't occur that often; Murphy is a bigger problem than Machiavelli.
You're entitled to your opinion but it goes directly against my experience, and most industry experience. Most C and old C++ codebases, memory management over time just becomes a tangled mess of ad hoc delete calls. With smart pointers this just hasn't happened and in practice spent tiny fractions of my time still dealing with memory related issues. A language with e.g. real reflection would be a way bigger boost to my productivity than improved memory management.
I am forced to conclude, from your complaints about the C++ code that you are exposed to, that it is very, very far from modern, for what I have to assume to be corporate reasons.
I don't know why you carry on about smart pointers. I find I use unique_ptr here and there (shared_ptr, practically never), and never, ever in any interface. Instead, modern C++ code traffics in value types, and relies on destructors, almost always from a library or compiler-generated, for cleanup. Use-after-free never happens because anything freed was only ever referenced from within a value-typed object that no longer exists.
The reason that, in modern C++, memory safety issues fade into insignificance is that we have access to libraries that are fully as fast as we could ever code in-line, optimized as only code that is used in many places can afford to be, that encode logic correctly, once, that can be used everywhere without compromise.
Rust does not yet have the facilities to capture as much semantics in libraries. Anything Rust can't capture in a library has to be coded in place, with all the opportunities for mistakes that brings.
So, Rust is good at safing low-level memory fiddling that we just don't do much of, anymore, in C++. Meanwhile, we avoid myriad errors that come from relying on necessarily leaky abstractions.
I don't know why you carry on about smart pointers. I find I use unique_ptr here and there (shared_ptr, practically never), and never, ever in any interface. Instead, modern C++ code traffics in value types, and relies on destructors, almost always from a library or compiler-generated, for cleanup. Use-after-free never happens because anything freed was only ever referenced from within a value-typed object that no longer exists.
The reason that, in modern C++, memory safety issues fade into insignificance is that we have access to libraries that are fully as fast as we could ever code in-line, optimized as only code that is used in many places can afford to be, that encode logic correctly, once, that can be used everywhere without compromise.
Rust does not yet have the facilities to capture as much semantics in libraries. Anything Rust can't capture in a library has to be coded in place, with all the opportunities for mistakes that brings.
So, Rust is good at safing low-level memory fiddling that we just don't do much of, anymore, in C++. Meanwhile, we avoid myriad errors that come from relying on necessarily leaky abstractions.
I was also using unique_ptr at Google (shared_ptr is not encouraged), but the problem with unique_ptr is that it doesn't solve the more complex data ownership cases, and it's totally unusable for multi-threaded data race problems.
Rust Rayon is a huge difference from anything available from C++, and it can't be solved in C++ without adding borrow checker to the C++ language (which wouldn't be a bad thing to do in my opinion, it would help modernizing old code bases).
Rust Rayon is a huge difference from anything available from C++, and it can't be solved in C++ without adding borrow checker to the C++ language (which wouldn't be a bad thing to do in my opinion, it would help modernizing old code bases).
When you have complicated ownership cases, you have a fundamental design problem. The Standard Library is not a place to find patches for those.
Likewise, multi-threaded race problems.
Likewise, multi-threaded race problems.
You can't use unique_ptr for everything if you want to have performant code. It needs heap allocation, which slows down the code base compared to stack allocated variables, in which case tracking the ownership is much more complex, but it's worth it, especially if you have millions of users.
Someone still has to build those libraries full of value types, and build the necessary abstractions on top of low level pointer laden OS APIs. For a game engine programmer, that means dealing with new console hardware with new DMA controller and graphics APIs in concurrent environments where performance is critical.
If anything, low-level memory fiddling is becoming more common and more widespread. Vulkan and D3D12 get lower level than ever before in what they expose. Webassembly brings pointers back to webpages like it's the 1990s and we're rocking ActiveX. I fear I'm soon going to have to start running address sanitizer for webpages.
People tell me modern C++ solves this problem, but supposed examples of it invariably underwhelm me. I suspect people claiming such just have lower standards. MIRSA C can help. NASA-level piles of documentation and rules and restraint can help. Enough unit tests that you start to catch more compiler bugs than library bugs can help. Drowning the end user in the false positives produced by modern C++ static analysis tools can help. Thorough fuzz testing can help. But these are ancient techniques, not modern. Combine all that and more and, yeah, you can actually get kinda close to practicing safe C++. But this level of care is rarely practiced.
No, the real problem I think is very few people are capable of the skill, patience, and fortitude to write strictly correct C++, and they rarely have the time to. And absolutely none of them were born with that power. Fresh blood will learn from their mistakes, and we will pay for those mistakes in sweat, tears, missed milestones, and CVEs.
I'd love to be proven wrong. C++ pays my bills and has a great ecosystem in a lot of ways - I'd love if it were salvagable. Meanwhile, the last C++17 upgrade attempt I saw failed when we decided we were unwilling to maintain a fork of the standard library to fix compilation issues in the vendor's implementation for one of our platforms.
If anything, low-level memory fiddling is becoming more common and more widespread. Vulkan and D3D12 get lower level than ever before in what they expose. Webassembly brings pointers back to webpages like it's the 1990s and we're rocking ActiveX. I fear I'm soon going to have to start running address sanitizer for webpages.
People tell me modern C++ solves this problem, but supposed examples of it invariably underwhelm me. I suspect people claiming such just have lower standards. MIRSA C can help. NASA-level piles of documentation and rules and restraint can help. Enough unit tests that you start to catch more compiler bugs than library bugs can help. Drowning the end user in the false positives produced by modern C++ static analysis tools can help. Thorough fuzz testing can help. But these are ancient techniques, not modern. Combine all that and more and, yeah, you can actually get kinda close to practicing safe C++. But this level of care is rarely practiced.
No, the real problem I think is very few people are capable of the skill, patience, and fortitude to write strictly correct C++, and they rarely have the time to. And absolutely none of them were born with that power. Fresh blood will learn from their mistakes, and we will pay for those mistakes in sweat, tears, missed milestones, and CVEs.
I'd love to be proven wrong. C++ pays my bills and has a great ecosystem in a lot of ways - I'd love if it were salvagable. Meanwhile, the last C++17 upgrade attempt I saw failed when we decided we were unwilling to maintain a fork of the standard library to fix compilation issues in the vendor's implementation for one of our platforms.
> Instead, modern C++ code traffics in value types, and relies on destructors, almost always from a library or compiler-generated, for cleanup.
Are std::vector and std::string "value types"?
> Use-after-free never happens
Yes, it does.
> The reason that, in modern C++, memory safety issues fade into insignificance
No, they don't.
Are std::vector and std::string "value types"?
> Use-after-free never happens
Yes, it does.
> The reason that, in modern C++, memory safety issues fade into insignificance
No, they don't.
std::vector and std::string were designed in the '90s, and came with C++98. They have been modernized, somewhat, with move constructors and the like, but in answer to your implied question, no, they are not modern designs, and they still have sharp edges. That is a burden of backward compatibility.
But you knew they came from C++98. Maybe you meant to ask if I still use them? I do. But I don't store references to their elements.
But you knew they came from C++98. Maybe you meant to ask if I still use them? I do. But I don't store references to their elements.
The "bad/good" attribute is not helpful, but if we replace that with "people who obsess about memory safety or not" then the conclusion holds.
The security problems of C and C++ programs are caused by the fact that it takes effort to write safe code in those languages and most programmers/companies can live just fine with the safety they can reach with less effort. Bugs are opened, the code is patched and the world goes on.
And because those people don't obsess over memory safety, they won't switch to Rust either, unless something else happens to force them to. E.g: great job opportunities, official toolchain in Rust, etc.
Maybe C and C++ are due to be replaced, but hopefully not by Rust, because at least back in 78 they could create a language that's at least moderately fun to use.
The security problems of C and C++ programs are caused by the fact that it takes effort to write safe code in those languages and most programmers/companies can live just fine with the safety they can reach with less effort. Bugs are opened, the code is patched and the world goes on.
And because those people don't obsess over memory safety, they won't switch to Rust either, unless something else happens to force them to. E.g: great job opportunities, official toolchain in Rust, etc.
Maybe C and C++ are due to be replaced, but hopefully not by Rust, because at least back in 78 they could create a language that's at least moderately fun to use.
> The "bad/good" attribute is not helpful, but if we replace that with "people who obsess about memory safety or not" then the conclusion holds.
"People who obsess over memory safety" are in fact not writing in C and C++ these days.
> The security problems of C and C++ programs are caused by the fact that it takes effort to write safe code in those languages and most programmers/companies can live just fine with the safety they can reach with less effort.
No, this is not true, unless you define "effort" as "10x normal development costs and time", which does not make economic sense for mainstream software.
"People who obsess over memory safety" are in fact not writing in C and C++ these days.
> The security problems of C and C++ programs are caused by the fact that it takes effort to write safe code in those languages and most programmers/companies can live just fine with the safety they can reach with less effort.
No, this is not true, unless you define "effort" as "10x normal development costs and time", which does not make economic sense for mainstream software.
Precisely, they are not. So then why do you expect C and C++ developers to switch to Rust if most of them don't consider memory safety that critical? Selling Rust to C and C++ programmers is like selling bicycles to Eskimos.
Regarding your second point: Firefox has vulnerabilities patched in almost every version (although the last one was a certificate screw-up). Are people abandoning Firefox because of that? Are you having trouble attracting talent, because it's written in C++? Are people switching to Chrome en masse because it has better security?
Even a project with middling memory safety like Firefox is able to survive just fine in a space where security's aaalways argued about. It's perversely lost market share because of Google's marketing and its poor performance. So one doesn't need to invest 10x development costs and time, probably not even 2x.
Regarding your second point: Firefox has vulnerabilities patched in almost every version (although the last one was a certificate screw-up). Are people abandoning Firefox because of that? Are you having trouble attracting talent, because it's written in C++? Are people switching to Chrome en masse because it has better security?
Even a project with middling memory safety like Firefox is able to survive just fine in a space where security's aaalways argued about. It's perversely lost market share because of Google's marketing and its poor performance. So one doesn't need to invest 10x development costs and time, probably not even 2x.
Both are written in C++, have had tons of memory safety issue. You don't really have a choice yet
> The people writing unsafe C today will not embrace Rust simply because it does not make their life any easier or more fun. If they were willing to do hard work, their C code would not be as unsafe as it is.
I feel like Rust has expanded pie for c-level performance languages. For system languages. I'm not comfortable writing C or C++ - if I miss something, it means UB. I am comfortable writing Rust - it generally yells at me if I were to trigger UB (modulo unsafe, which I stay away from).
Edit: Though I have to admit, my point doesn't apply to the article. He's only talking to 'C' programmers in the article.
I feel like Rust has expanded pie for c-level performance languages. For system languages. I'm not comfortable writing C or C++ - if I miss something, it means UB. I am comfortable writing Rust - it generally yells at me if I were to trigger UB (modulo unsafe, which I stay away from).
Edit: Though I have to admit, my point doesn't apply to the article. He's only talking to 'C' programmers in the article.
This reason exactly, when I was learning Rust I had a milestone of complete - when I can reason the errors reported by the compiler, and comfortablely make my program compile. At that point, I could already let my program to run on production. Whereas in C/C++, when learning, there's always the fear of missing something, and without a C/C++ veteran in team to review, I would never trust my C/C++ program to run on production settings.
All that is to say, Rust opened a whole new way (better for myself, YMMV) to access low-level programming for higher-level language programmers.
This is a huge selling point for Rust. If you have a project done in C++ you will need to have at least one amazing developer in your team to double check all the code to insure that nothing can go wrong. You will also preferably have a team of developers that are medium+ in coding in C++ because if it’s a junior team the senior dev will spend all his time teaching and correcting the code his team does.
With Rust thanks to the borrow checker and all the help from the compiler you won’t need that wizard in your team. That means less stress thanks to the compiler and less management and you can have a team with a lot of junior devs without having the necessity to have anybody to be senior to oversee the code and you can still be confident to ship code to production.
With Rust thanks to the borrow checker and all the help from the compiler you won’t need that wizard in your team. That means less stress thanks to the compiler and less management and you can have a team with a lot of junior devs without having the necessity to have anybody to be senior to oversee the code and you can still be confident to ship code to production.
I'd actually recommend D ( https://dlang.org/ ) or OCaml ( http://ocaml.org/ ) over any of those.
- D is a safer, cleaner, more convenient version of C++. It has a Rust-like build system/package manager (dub), a sane module system, Rust-like unit tests available anywhere, C++-like compile-time expressions and functions, C++-like generics, and contract-style programming (which C++ is also about to get) for safer code. Oh, and the D compiler is known to be fast, unlike C++ and Rust.
- OCaml is a pragmatic functional programming language focusing on a sound static type system with strong modules support, rather than on total purity. It too has a fast compiler and targets JS as well as native.
- D is a safer, cleaner, more convenient version of C++. It has a Rust-like build system/package manager (dub), a sane module system, Rust-like unit tests available anywhere, C++-like compile-time expressions and functions, C++-like generics, and contract-style programming (which C++ is also about to get) for safer code. Oh, and the D compiler is known to be fast, unlike C++ and Rust.
- OCaml is a pragmatic functional programming language focusing on a sound static type system with strong modules support, rather than on total purity. It too has a fast compiler and targets JS as well as native.
I'm a fairly seasoned C programmer. I actually started with C++ back in the last century, but when I had the chance to do plain C I quickly saw it's benefits over C++ (at least back then). I have long pined for a better language that could be used for embedded systems programming.
In my current job I am now using C++14/17 (not my choice). I'm starting to like auto, but not much else. The "smart" pointers and "move" are hard for me to reason about still. I'd have an easier time reasoning about raw pointers and references, mainly because that's all I had in my early C++ days and C days (of course). I think things like asan and ubsan are far more helpful even with plain C than features like smart pointers.
I've tried Rust. The author of TFA linked to another article explaining that rust tricks you because it looks like languages you have used before, but it's really not like them. That made me feel better about my experience. I found it to be very frustrating. I'll have to try it again with a different mindset.
I haven't tried go, but I don't feel like it's a viable embedded programming language because of it's garbage collector. At least not for tightly contrained embedded systems. I'm honestly not sure rust is going to work for those types of systems either. Sometimes you just have to poke bits into memory and I'm not sure how a super safe language will deal with that better than C.
In my current job I am now using C++14/17 (not my choice). I'm starting to like auto, but not much else. The "smart" pointers and "move" are hard for me to reason about still. I'd have an easier time reasoning about raw pointers and references, mainly because that's all I had in my early C++ days and C days (of course). I think things like asan and ubsan are far more helpful even with plain C than features like smart pointers.
I've tried Rust. The author of TFA linked to another article explaining that rust tricks you because it looks like languages you have used before, but it's really not like them. That made me feel better about my experience. I found it to be very frustrating. I'll have to try it again with a different mindset.
I haven't tried go, but I don't feel like it's a viable embedded programming language because of it's garbage collector. At least not for tightly contrained embedded systems. I'm honestly not sure rust is going to work for those types of systems either. Sometimes you just have to poke bits into memory and I'm not sure how a super safe language will deal with that better than C.
> I think things like asan and ubsan are far more helpful even with plain C than features like smart pointers.
I agree. Smart pointers are not effective safety features. They mostly add new ways to get use-after-free. (shared_ptr helps a bit by automatically bumping reference counts, but shared_ptr is often discouraged in modern C++, and there are lots of ways to get around this, such as "shared_ptr&".)
> I'm honestly not sure rust is going to work for those types of systems either. Sometimes you just have to poke bits into memory and I'm not sure how a super safe language will deal with that better than C.
Read the "Writing an OS in Rust" series. Even in the kernel, you can have a relatively small trusted computing base and then most of the rest of the code can be safe.
I agree. Smart pointers are not effective safety features. They mostly add new ways to get use-after-free. (shared_ptr helps a bit by automatically bumping reference counts, but shared_ptr is often discouraged in modern C++, and there are lots of ways to get around this, such as "shared_ptr&".)
> I'm honestly not sure rust is going to work for those types of systems either. Sometimes you just have to poke bits into memory and I'm not sure how a super safe language will deal with that better than C.
Read the "Writing an OS in Rust" series. Even in the kernel, you can have a relatively small trusted computing base and then most of the rest of the code can be safe.
I'm probably the exact opposite, I'm more a Jack of all trades, master of none. I jump from language or framework to another without any remorse, just trying to do the best given time, resources and project needs. I did work with c (text template engine lib / x11 gui app / personal kernel module / dpdk userspace networking / arduino & pi baremetal stuff / ...), C++ (mostly some qt stuff for my old blackberry Q10), Java (I'm probably one of the few who liked Swing...), Go (backend servers), Python 2/3 (Some webdev, mostly admin scripts), PHP 4-7 (web/cli...), js (basic stuff and jQuery, trying to get into dart and flutter next...)
When I try to see my self in the shoes of a primary C dev, I wouldn't see Go as a concurrent to C, but more as a less annoying scripting language. Every time when I switch from a "typed" to an "untyped" language, I do need a longer time to "feel at home" again. Therefore I think Go could be good language for a C dev for small tasks on the site, like creating small cli tools for the buildchain or generally inhouse, things like that what one normally tends to look at python for. Go makes it easy to create a good cli interface, easy to document the format of a config file and writing a test. Deployment is also easy thanks to that is just a static blob that comes with everything that it needs. So no worrying about if the right interpreter is installed on that dev server, just copy it over with scp and it works.
When I try to see my self in the shoes of a primary C dev, I wouldn't see Go as a concurrent to C, but more as a less annoying scripting language. Every time when I switch from a "typed" to an "untyped" language, I do need a longer time to "feel at home" again. Therefore I think Go could be good language for a C dev for small tasks on the site, like creating small cli tools for the buildchain or generally inhouse, things like that what one normally tends to look at python for. Go makes it easy to create a good cli interface, easy to document the format of a config file and writing a test. Deployment is also easy thanks to that is just a static blob that comes with everything that it needs. So no worrying about if the right interpreter is installed on that dev server, just copy it over with scp and it works.
C++ is a huge and complex language compared to C.
[Compared size of the standard reference document for each.]
C++ is complex to parse. Clang and Gcc use back-tracking to parse C++ and there can be long compilation times.
Tiobe language rankings for May 2019:
Rust is ranked 34th at 0.335% below Lisp and Prolog
Go is ranked 19th at 1.114%.
In complexity and size, Go language is closer to C programming language than either Rust or C++. [Rust and C++ are much larger languages than Go.]
Lastly, Rust does not appear to have a standard BNF grammar specification and I counted around 33 FIXME unspecified sections in the reference document for Rust. I haven't even discussed the number of unstable features in Rust. in the Ref
C++ is complex to parse. Clang and Gcc use back-tracking to parse C++ and there can be long compilation times.
Tiobe language rankings for May 2019:
Rust is ranked 34th at 0.335% below Lisp and Prolog
Go is ranked 19th at 1.114%.
In complexity and size, Go language is closer to C programming language than either Rust or C++. [Rust and C++ are much larger languages than Go.]
Lastly, Rust does not appear to have a standard BNF grammar specification and I counted around 33 FIXME unspecified sections in the reference document for Rust. I haven't even discussed the number of unstable features in Rust. in the Ref
It's a pity the author misses on the nice language features of Rust. Compared to Go or C++ that can be more appealing to some engineers. I mean for example traits, pattern matching, immutability and the functional features.
Rust does (still) have the advantages of a clean slate. Default const, default pass by move, move that can't fail are nice things C++ can never have because they can only be in there from the start.
The future will identify other features, in other languages, that Rust can never have, for the same reasons. Rust is very quickly accumulating unfortunate accidents that will make is seem less shiny as it matures. That is just a natural progression.
Will Rust ever be mainstream? It is still possible. In five years it either will be, or will be fading and something else capturing attention it commanded. Only time can tell.
The future will identify other features, in other languages, that Rust can never have, for the same reasons. Rust is very quickly accumulating unfortunate accidents that will make is seem less shiny as it matures. That is just a natural progression.
Will Rust ever be mainstream? It is still possible. In five years it either will be, or will be fading and something else capturing attention it commanded. Only time can tell.
> Rust is very quickly accumulating unfortunate accidents that will make is seem less shiny as it matures.
Are you saying that Rust is rusting? :)
Are you saying that Rust is rusting? :)
I think I'd agree that it's good to be at least familiar with all 3. I honestly haven't really touched C++ in a long time, and don't know anything about its newer and more advanced features. Might be worth doing? I honestly have no idea how you would do something like pull in a utility library in C++ without wrestling with makefiles and compiler flags.
I have worked with some Go, and found it reasonably practical, if a little boring and verbose. Not necessarily a bad thing if you're writing a big program with a large team with widely-varying capabilities. But it's hard to get the enthusiasm to write more Go recreationally. The standard library is remarkably thorough, though I'm a little disappointed at how bare-bones dependency management and control is.
I find I enjoy Rust rather well. I don't consider myself to be particularly smart, but I haven't run into much trouble fighting the Rust borrow checker. It does force you to think more about exactly what should own what at any particular time, and exactly what to do in any particular error situation, which is probably a good thing. Sometimes you have to throw some clones and random &s around to get things working, but I've always been able to sort it out so far. And it's the first language in this space with a dependency management system that actually compares to dynamic languages like Ruby.
I have worked with some Go, and found it reasonably practical, if a little boring and verbose. Not necessarily a bad thing if you're writing a big program with a large team with widely-varying capabilities. But it's hard to get the enthusiasm to write more Go recreationally. The standard library is remarkably thorough, though I'm a little disappointed at how bare-bones dependency management and control is.
I find I enjoy Rust rather well. I don't consider myself to be particularly smart, but I haven't run into much trouble fighting the Rust borrow checker. It does force you to think more about exactly what should own what at any particular time, and exactly what to do in any particular error situation, which is probably a good thing. Sometimes you have to throw some clones and random &s around to get things working, but I've always been able to sort it out so far. And it's the first language in this space with a dependency management system that actually compares to dynamic languages like Ruby.
I find myself nodding along with everything you've said, except for this:
> I'm a little disappointed at how bare-bones dependency management and control is.
Is that referring to Go modules, or to the situation before it? I just started using Go modules in my active projects, and I find that it matches your overall characterization of Go: reasonably practical, a little boring.
> I'm a little disappointed at how bare-bones dependency management and control is.
Is that referring to Go modules, or to the situation before it? I just started using Go modules in my active projects, and I find that it matches your overall characterization of Go: reasonably practical, a little boring.
That refers to the situation before it, I suppose, since I'm not sure what Go modules are. I haven't messed with Go much in a few months though. If it lets you specify somewhere which packages/modules your Go project uses and what versions are okay, and upgrade packages within the permitted version range without disrupting other Go projects you're working on, then it might be just what the language needed.
Yes, it's pretty much that.
Why not all of the above? Then you can choose the best language for the task at hand. They each have their own unique strengths.
It takes time to master a tool, doubly so if the tool is still being actively developed, and the investment in time and energy to develop a skill needs to be allocated at the expense of some other activity.
Mastery is different. You can still be highly proficient in short time without knowing every nuance. Then, you can choose which one feels best and is worth your time pursuing more.
A limited comparison of C, C++, Go, Rust:
Go and C seem to have a large number of available software tools.
Based on the "size" of the reference documentation alone, C and Go appear to be the simplest to learn for beginners.
A beginner coming from a C background might choose to learn the "Go" language, of the 3 available choices: C++, Rust, and Go.
Other than it's declaration syntax, Go appears to have been designed to be the most familiar to a C programmer.
C++ is very large and complex, just look at the size of the reference documentation. The 4th edition of "The C++ Programming Language" doesn't even have an "Appendix A: Grammar" anymore.
Rust doesn't appear yet to be stable enough to even specify a BNF for it's grammar.
Of course, there are other programming languages out there that maybe are even better for a C programmer to learn, but we were not asked for our opinion of other PLs.
Go and C seem to have a large number of available software tools.
Based on the "size" of the reference documentation alone, C and Go appear to be the simplest to learn for beginners.
A beginner coming from a C background might choose to learn the "Go" language, of the 3 available choices: C++, Rust, and Go.
Other than it's declaration syntax, Go appears to have been designed to be the most familiar to a C programmer.
C++ is very large and complex, just look at the size of the reference documentation. The 4th edition of "The C++ Programming Language" doesn't even have an "Appendix A: Grammar" anymore.
Rust doesn't appear yet to be stable enough to even specify a BNF for it's grammar.
Of course, there are other programming languages out there that maybe are even better for a C programmer to learn, but we were not asked for our opinion of other PLs.
I very much doubt Rust is going to get much traction in embedded. C++ is barely being used and even when it is, it is usually "C with classes" being written by C programmers forced to switch.
Easy answer: Yes!
To first order, it doesn't matter which you pick, because we will all be better off than if you continue producing C code.
For production code, it is probably too early to switch to Rust, most places. Give it five years. But it won't be a mistake, then, to have five years' experience with it.
Rust and C++ will require more learning and adaptation than Go. Don't be fooled by C++'s apparent similarity to C: to get the benefits, you need to code the modern C++ way to reduce the window for low-level mistakes. Rust makes it hard to code the C way, so needs less coding discipline, but the Rust way takes more getting used to.
Both Rust and C++ can be substantially faster than C, for different reasons. C++ is better at capturing semantics in libraries. Rust knows more about what code is allowed to do, and can optimize accordingly.
Go is probably easier to switch to from C. There is not as much to learn. It's garbage-collected, so there are places it won't go, but most people won't need to go to those places.
It is never a mistake to know more than one language. In a sense, you don't have to choose one, you only have to choose what to learn first.
To first order, it doesn't matter which you pick, because we will all be better off than if you continue producing C code.
For production code, it is probably too early to switch to Rust, most places. Give it five years. But it won't be a mistake, then, to have five years' experience with it.
Rust and C++ will require more learning and adaptation than Go. Don't be fooled by C++'s apparent similarity to C: to get the benefits, you need to code the modern C++ way to reduce the window for low-level mistakes. Rust makes it hard to code the C way, so needs less coding discipline, but the Rust way takes more getting used to.
Both Rust and C++ can be substantially faster than C, for different reasons. C++ is better at capturing semantics in libraries. Rust knows more about what code is allowed to do, and can optimize accordingly.
Go is probably easier to switch to from C. There is not as much to learn. It's garbage-collected, so there are places it won't go, but most people won't need to go to those places.
It is never a mistake to know more than one language. In a sense, you don't have to choose one, you only have to choose what to learn first.
I wouldn't claim that Rust is "substantially faster" than C right now. In time, the compiler could be able to do more aggressive optimizations than is generally possible in C. But not yet.
Generally, I think the performance differences between C, C++, and Rust are so minute as to be not really worth worrying about. In practice, small differences in the way you write the code makes way more of a difference than anything in the languages. This is not surprising when you consider that the three languages literally share the same compiler backend in many cases (LLVM), and core operations in each language generally map down to the same IR instructions.
Generally, I think the performance differences between C, C++, and Rust are so minute as to be not really worth worrying about. In practice, small differences in the way you write the code makes way more of a difference than anything in the languages. This is not surprising when you consider that the three languages literally share the same compiler backend in many cases (LLVM), and core operations in each language generally map down to the same IR instructions.
It is not unusual for a C++ or Rust program to be 30% faster than the C program it replaces. The reasons are worth studying.
30% may be no great shakes vs the 1000%+ available switching from Python, but in this post-Moore's-Law world, it is nothing to sneeze at.
30% may be no great shakes vs the 1000%+ available switching from Python, but in this post-Moore's-Law world, it is nothing to sneeze at.
I think it’s not unusual for any program to be 30% faster than the program it replaces. So far I haven’t seen any specific examples of the C++ or Rust compiler providing a speedup by leveraging additional information input by the programmer. The main speedup seems to be the ability to easily implement more complicated algorithms, and the ability to speedily replace slow one-off implementations with relatively high-quality standard library ones.
Yes, the practicality of dropping in use of a well-optimized library is one of the ways that C++ code often beats C.
Another is the ability to pass a lambda to library function, and compiled directly into it, where C would need to pass a pointer-to-function to be called indirectly.
Both contribute to the showcase sorting example, which is used frequently because it had proven to be understandable, not because it is unique.
Another is the ability to pass a lambda to library function, and compiled directly into it, where C would need to pass a pointer-to-function to be called indirectly.
Both contribute to the showcase sorting example, which is used frequently because it had proven to be understandable, not because it is unique.
My guess is that these languages (C++, Rust) allow for far more optimizations as it is quite discouraged to reinvent the wheel.
Which is a unfortunately a thing in C
Which is a unfortunately a thing in C
One factor is how simple it is to use an efficient data-structure in Rust vs C due to good polymorphism and easy dependency management. In C, importing and using an efficient data structure can be a chore, and so many implementations use suboptimal but more C-friendly structures instead.
> Both Rust and C++ can be substantially faster than C, for different reasons. C++ is better at capturing semantics in libraries. Rust knows more about what code is allowed to do, and can optimize accordingly.
People have been saying this for decades about various languages and C is still the standard for performance except for a few specific cases. How many more decades until we can consider this "sufficiently smart compiler" a myth?
People have been saying this for decades about various languages and C is still the standard for performance except for a few specific cases. How many more decades until we can consider this "sufficiently smart compiler" a myth?
Uhm, citation needed? Most of the most performance critical industries like game dev, high frequency trading, are primarily in C++, not C. Well written C++ tends to be more performant than C largely because there's just much less indirection in using templates than C equivalents (function pointers, void*, etc). And compilers are already smart enough to optimize out most C++ compile time abstractions.
> Uhm, citation needed?
Pretty much every benchmark I've ever seen, I provided one further down but here's another one: https://thenewstack.io/which-programming-languages-use-the-l... . Yes benchmarks can have many pitfalls but when literally all of them show the same unsurprising result (that more abstraction means worse performance) I think it's safe to trust them. Have you got a citation that shows c++ generally outperforming c?
> Most of the most performance critical industries like game dev, high frequency trading, are primarily in C++, not C
And I'd be willing to bet that the more critical components look a lot more like c than c++, not "modern c++".
> Well written C++ tends to be more performant than C largely because there's just much less indirection in using templates than C equivalents (function pointers, void*, etc)
Yes that's one advantage, it's one of the few specific cases where c++ performs better that I outlined. Even then _Generic_ in C can often give you a way to do the same (in an uglier way).
Pretty much every benchmark I've ever seen, I provided one further down but here's another one: https://thenewstack.io/which-programming-languages-use-the-l... . Yes benchmarks can have many pitfalls but when literally all of them show the same unsurprising result (that more abstraction means worse performance) I think it's safe to trust them. Have you got a citation that shows c++ generally outperforming c?
> Most of the most performance critical industries like game dev, high frequency trading, are primarily in C++, not C
And I'd be willing to bet that the more critical components look a lot more like c than c++, not "modern c++".
> Well written C++ tends to be more performant than C largely because there's just much less indirection in using templates than C equivalents (function pointers, void*, etc)
Yes that's one advantage, it's one of the few specific cases where c++ performs better that I outlined. Even then _Generic_ in C can often give you a way to do the same (in an uglier way).
"Still the standard" among people who don't know that C++ is faster than C.
Fortran used to be the language for what we now call HPC. C was too slow. C++ is used now. This did not happen because Fortran got slower. Instead, C++ got faster.
The reasons are interesting. It turns out that to get faster Fortran, your compiler vendor has to code optimizations in the compiler. But in C++ you can code them in a library, and not wait on the attention of a compiler developer.
Fortran used to be the language for what we now call HPC. C was too slow. C++ is used now. This did not happen because Fortran got slower. Instead, C++ got faster.
The reasons are interesting. It turns out that to get faster Fortran, your compiler vendor has to code optimizations in the compiler. But in C++ you can code them in a library, and not wait on the attention of a compiler developer.
> C is still the standard among people who don't know that C++ is faster than C.
Care to share some examples? I know there are a few specific ones like sorting but every benchmark I've ever seen has c coming out ahead in most tests, especially when c++ features are used.
> Fortran used to be the language for what we now call HPC
Again that was a fairly specific case usually only seen in scientific applications.
From your other post:
> It is not unusual for a C++ or Rust program to be 30% faster than the C program it replaces. The reasons are worth studying.
Citation needed, this is so far off from every benchmark I've ever seen it's laughable.
Care to share some examples? I know there are a few specific ones like sorting but every benchmark I've ever seen has c coming out ahead in most tests, especially when c++ features are used.
> Fortran used to be the language for what we now call HPC
Again that was a fairly specific case usually only seen in scientific applications.
From your other post:
> It is not unusual for a C++ or Rust program to be 30% faster than the C program it replaces. The reasons are worth studying.
Citation needed, this is so far off from every benchmark I've ever seen it's laughable.
It is not possible for a C program to be faster than the C++ version. Compile the C program with a C++ compiler, and they are exactly the same.
Then, use C++ features anywhere they make it faster.
If you knew C++ I could go into more detail, but if you knew C++ we would not need to have this conversation.
Then, use C++ features anywhere they make it faster.
If you knew C++ I could go into more detail, but if you knew C++ we would not need to have this conversation.
> It is not possible for a C program to be faster than the C++ version.
That is simply not true and easily demonstrably false: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...
> Compile the C program with a C++ compiler, and they are exactly the same.
Why would I compile a C program with a C++ compiler? But in any case the above link both used gcc and shared most of the compiler backend.
> If you knew C++ I could go into more detail, but if you knew C++ we would not need to have this conversation.
Your assumptions is wrong on multiple levels, I know C++ (admittedly rusty though) and it is not self evident, the opposite in fact.
That is simply not true and easily demonstrably false: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...
> Compile the C program with a C++ compiler, and they are exactly the same.
Why would I compile a C program with a C++ compiler? But in any case the above link both used gcc and shared most of the compiler backend.
> If you knew C++ I could go into more detail, but if you knew C++ we would not need to have this conversation.
Your assumptions is wrong on multiple levels, I know C++ (admittedly rusty though) and it is not self evident, the opposite in fact.
You would, if you were scrupulous, compile your C program with a C++ compiler to prove absolutely that C cannot be faster than C++, before going on to make the C++ version faster, using features that do not exist in C. .
Your benchmarks demonstrate only that it is possible to write slow code in any language, even a fast one.
It would be easy enough to make the C programs equally slow, still proving nothing about either language.
Your benchmarks demonstrate only that it is possible to write slow code in any language, even a fast one.
It would be easy enough to make the C programs equally slow, still proving nothing about either language.
Are you trolling? I Honestly don't know where to start with that post.
> You would, if you were scrupulous, compile your C program with a C++ compiler to prove absolutely that C cannot be faster than C++
If my program compiles, which is a big if because c is not a subset of c++, all it would demonstrate is which compiler is better. A c program being compiled with a c++ compiler doesn't gain any type information, it can't make any assumptions that the C compiler couldn't.
> before going on to make the C++ version faster, using features that do not exist in C.
Which features? It's certainly not going to get faster by throwing in OO abstractions and virtual methods.
> Your benchmarks demonstrate only that it is possible to write slow code in any language, even a fast one.
Then show me some better ones, so far I've provided more examples supporting your point than you have.
> You would, if you were scrupulous, compile your C program with a C++ compiler to prove absolutely that C cannot be faster than C++
If my program compiles, which is a big if because c is not a subset of c++, all it would demonstrate is which compiler is better. A c program being compiled with a c++ compiler doesn't gain any type information, it can't make any assumptions that the C compiler couldn't.
> before going on to make the C++ version faster, using features that do not exist in C.
Which features? It's certainly not going to get faster by throwing in OO abstractions and virtual methods.
> Your benchmarks demonstrate only that it is possible to write slow code in any language, even a fast one.
Then show me some better ones, so far I've provided more examples supporting your point than you have.
I will explain a third time.
If you compile any C program with a C++ compiler (possibly making trivial changes to account for gratuitous language divergence) you will find, for reasons you note yourself, that it runs at exactly the same speed. NOT, let me emphasize here because this seems to be difficult to process, ever slower than C. Therefore, (try to follow this) C is never faster than C++.
So, it is at best foolish to insist that C can ever be faster than C. The falsehood is trivially exposed.
If you think that C++ is about OO gook and virtual functions, an education awaits. But not here.
If you compile any C program with a C++ compiler (possibly making trivial changes to account for gratuitous language divergence) you will find, for reasons you note yourself, that it runs at exactly the same speed. NOT, let me emphasize here because this seems to be difficult to process, ever slower than C. Therefore, (try to follow this) C is never faster than C++.
So, it is at best foolish to insist that C can ever be faster than C. The falsehood is trivially exposed.
If you think that C++ is about OO gook and virtual functions, an education awaits. But not here.
> So, it is at best foolish to insist that C can ever be faster than C. The falsehood is trivially exposed.
Enough with the faulty logic, where are the benchmarks proving it? I've still provided more evidence of your assertion than you have.
Enough with the faulty logic, where are the benchmarks proving it? I've still provided more evidence of your assertion than you have.
You don't need a benchmark. Given any C code, you can make a C++ code that runs as fast (just use the same code). This proves that C++ is at least as fast as C.
From there, maybe you could use C++ features to improve the speed (and then C++ is faster) or you could not (and then they have the same speed).
From there, maybe you could use C++ features to improve the speed (and then C++ is faster) or you could not (and then they have the same speed).
Just take the C code and replace function pointers with templated code. There, the C++ version is now faster.
None of the above, renewal for the sake of renewal is not a good thing which we have too much of already in IT.
None of that is true. The biggest memory safety flaws that have caused the most damage have been, more often than not, written by the best C and C++ programmers. That's because the best programmers are the ones who write the critical C and C++ code--Chromium, Firefox, WebKit, the Linux kernel, nginx, libpng, libjpeg, libc, etc. "Bad programmers" (whatever that means) can't, and don't, usefully contribute to projects like WebKit to begin with.
The problem is with the tool. Though it's an inconvenient fact to accept, humans have shown themselves incapable of writing safe C and C++ code at scale using standard software development practices (i.e. not spending 10x on verification). That C and C++ are due to be replaced shouldn't really be controversial--it's natural to expect that we know how to design languages better now than we did in 1978.