Hong Kong Police Fire Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets at Protesters(wsj.com)
wsj.com
Hong Kong Police Fire Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets at Protesters
https://www.wsj.com/articles/hong-kong-protest-debate-postponed-on-extradition-bill-as-crowds-swell-in-opposition-11560309637
190 comments
For the Hong Kong protesters to be successful perhaps they have to "export" their values and demands to be applicable for the rest of China rather than their microcosm. I suspect Guangzhou, Shenzen, Dongguan may have no sympathy for those in Hong Kong who have more rights and a better standard of living than they do.
> have no sympathy for those in Hong Kong who have more rights and a better standard of living than they do.
I always find this paradox as interesting as sad.
This Lose/Win mentality evolved as a solution to small community of humans with limited resources. In that situation, how to split the insufficient resources is the main problem. The more others get, the less is left for me.
In current modern society, the more education and resources has the people around me the more they produce and I can benefit from it.
Or brain did not evolve to our modern world, I guess. Helping people to think Win/Win would be a great paradigm shift moving into the future of our society.
I always find this paradox as interesting as sad.
This Lose/Win mentality evolved as a solution to small community of humans with limited resources. In that situation, how to split the insufficient resources is the main problem. The more others get, the less is left for me.
In current modern society, the more education and resources has the people around me the more they produce and I can benefit from it.
Or brain did not evolve to our modern world, I guess. Helping people to think Win/Win would be a great paradigm shift moving into the future of our society.
I always find this paradox as interesting as sad.
It's crab mentality [1] and you're right, it's extremely sad. We see it absolutely everywhere. So many people who (for example) hate the rich rather than loving the poor.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
It's crab mentality [1] and you're right, it's extremely sad. We see it absolutely everywhere. So many people who (for example) hate the rich rather than loving the poor.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality
It would have been possible, or at least HK thought that was going to happen 20 years ago. The whole of China will become more HK alike. Instead China's close grip on power meant any of these western Values were not allowed to be exposed. Even the spoken languages Cantonese is silently being killed at an alarming rate.
> For the Hong Kong protesters to be successful perhaps they have to "export" their values and demands to be applicable for the rest of China
Not necessarily. Beijing is violating an agreement lodged with the UN.
The protesters just need to get the population in a G7 country pissed off enough to turn this bill into an international issue, thereby increasing the cost of its introduction to Beijing.
Not necessarily. Beijing is violating an agreement lodged with the UN.
The protesters just need to get the population in a G7 country pissed off enough to turn this bill into an international issue, thereby increasing the cost of its introduction to Beijing.
Beijing also detained the head of Interpol who has not been seen since (a Chinese citizen). Link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-chinese-head...
Who says the UN (whose strongholds of power largely lie in Anglo and European countries) should have any say over what China does?
China is literally a permanent member of the Security Council. They are one of the UN strongholds of power in every possible sense.
Because China wanted to be part of the UN. If they don't want the UN to have any saying in their matters they should leave and face the consequences. I don't know if this says more about China or the UN, to be honest.
Hong Kong
I think you touch on something very relevant. I have been there quite a few times and I like it there but many Chinese see Hong Kong people as spoiled and snobbish. Back when China took over Hong Kong, Hong Kong was something special. Today many mainland Chinese cities are just as wealthy and almost as international as Hong Kong; yet Hong Kong clings on to its special status.
Why are these people not fighting for better rule of law in all of China? Where is the solidarity?
Why are these people not fighting for better rule of law in all of China? Where is the solidarity?
One reason is simply that most of these cities exist today by virtue of top-down fiat, planning and investment. That is, they owe their present prosperity to the govt.'s policies.
Many cities on the Chinese mainland are nearly as wealthy as Hong Kong but none of them are remotely as "international".
And asking "why are [Hong Kongers] not fighting for better rule of law in all of China? Where is the solidarity?" either betrays a serious lack of understanding of how the Chinese political system works or is a question asked in bad faith.
And asking "why are [Hong Kongers] not fighting for better rule of law in all of China? Where is the solidarity?" either betrays a serious lack of understanding of how the Chinese political system works or is a question asked in bad faith.
How do you think your average Chinese in the neighbouring regions perceive these protest? Do you think they are sympathetic to your cause?
We have no idea of knowing, but from what I've heard, they are simply not aware. Almost anything with the phrase "Hong Kong" was censored inside mainland China today.
It's not too hard to find something on Weibo, e.g. this post in support of the police [1] where the highest-upvoted comment at 281 votes condemns the police violence [2].
[1] https://m.weibo.cn/detail/4382509644815287 面对困难，香港警察从不畏惧，坚决捍卫法律尊严！@香港警察
[2] 拿枪射无辜民众及记者，一群警察围殴女孩，拿胡椒喷雾射向老人及外国游客，这样就是维护法治吗
[1] https://m.weibo.cn/detail/4382509644815287 面对困难，香港警察从不畏惧，坚决捍卫法律尊严！@香港警察
[2] 拿枪射无辜民众及记者，一群警察围殴女孩，拿胡椒喷雾射向老人及外国游客，这样就是维护法治吗
The replies to [2] however, show that nobody believed what she claimed.
Huh? That not everyone agrees doesn't mean nobody believed her. The highest-voted reply complains about censorship. The second-highest talks about the police acting in self-defense. The third-highest fantasizes about shooting ... someone (I initially interpreted it to mean the police, but maybe they actually want to shoot the protesters?)
Chinese government is paying Chinese people 500 HKD (Hong Kong dollars) to cross the border and counter protest so that they can report there are 800k counter protestors.
Isn't that impossible without becoming a high ranking member of the Communist party? And isn't becoming a high ranking member of the Communist party impossible to do if you don't mostly agree with the current system of laws in mainland China?
It looks like you are blaming people for standing up for their rights. The reason they still have special status is also because they have not been shy about fighting for their rights in the past, otherwise it would have been taking away a long time ago.
Instead of blaming people for defending their rights (bringing everyone down), perhaps a better avenue would be to stand up with them and also protest and ask for more rights (bringing everyone up).
Yes, that's exactly what he wrote.
Firstly, the proposed law in question affects mainland Chinese people just as much as local HK people (in fact, it affects everyone who steps foot in Hong Kong).
Secondly, what do you think all those Tiananmen Square vigils held in HK every single year for the past 30 years were for?
Secondly, what do you think all those Tiananmen Square vigils held in HK every single year for the past 30 years were for?
Not disagreeing, but just want to note that there's a huge difference between the people doing the June 4 vigils (patriotic, love China, older age, want a democratic united China) and the people doing the current protest (young, unpatriotic, hate China, want independence).
If standing up for human rights is unpatriotic, the problem is with the country and not those who stand.
I wouldn't be so sure that they're a completely disjointed set. Many who attended the vigil this year were quite young, for example, while many older people were on the streets as well today.
The CPC will violently crush any attempt to ask for the rule of law in mainland China. If you protest in mainland China you may get Tiananmen Square'd. The authoritarian regime does NOT permit criticism, introspection, or questioning of the CPC regime. Public communication is censored.
That's like saying I shouldn't fight for my rights unless I fight for the rights of every person on planet earth. Where does our obligation to others start and end? No. First and foremost I will fight for my own freedoms.
No sympathy is right. A lot of people I've talked to in Shenzhen feel HKers 看不起大陆人 look down on mainlanders.
You have to look at this issue from a Hong Kong resident point of view (I am not a Hong Kong resident). Since the handover to the China government, the average living cost is higher than ever before [1], real estate price skyrocket due to huge amount of investment from China[2]. Some Hong Kongers
may blame these issues to "mainlanders" for "disrupting" their live.
Also in 2013 "mainlanders" rush to Hong Kong to buy milk powder due to the poisonous milk power scandal in China, causing a shortage of milk power in Hong Kong [3]. I certainly wouldn't be happy if suddenly I can't buy milk power for my child because my neighbour had bought all of them.
[1] https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1143157/hong-kon...
[2] https://www.scmp.com/business/article/3002396/hong-kong-home...
[3] https://www.worldjournal.com/6148953/article-%E9%A6%99%E6%B8...
Also in 2013 "mainlanders" rush to Hong Kong to buy milk powder due to the poisonous milk power scandal in China, causing a shortage of milk power in Hong Kong [3]. I certainly wouldn't be happy if suddenly I can't buy milk power for my child because my neighbour had bought all of them.
[1] https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1143157/hong-kon...
[2] https://www.scmp.com/business/article/3002396/hong-kong-home...
[3] https://www.worldjournal.com/6148953/article-%E9%A6%99%E6%B8...
Interestingly a lot of HK people here feel the rest of China is looking down on / showing no respect to us and everything that makes HK different from the mainland.
Mainlanders don't share etiquette & hygiene standards that HK has from the west. If China would import anything besides human rights...
This relationship between Hong Kong people and mainland people is quite similar to immigrant issues in the West. Mainland immigrants are perceived to not work, receive free apartments in the world's most expensive city, and have poor judgment in things ranging from politics to obeying the call of nature.
Well, at least they are interested. Today evening on a metro, I think quite a few people were watching videos on HK events
That's from the same school of thought that brought us the Syrian red line on poisonous gas, the successes of the Arab spring and the democratic reforms after tieanmin square? Demanding a revolution far away from danger at the top of your voice while with your voting feet trampling these futures of choice? If you want to remain free get out of Hong Kong while you still can..
I don't know how you can export "mainlanders are locusts" to the rest of China.
Since this has been declared a riot, and that a riot is punishable with up to 10 years in prison, and the legislation their protesting about is about extraditing people with more than a seven year sentence...
It’s coming to the point where they’ve got nothing to lose.
It’s coming to the point where they’ve got nothing to lose.
How is this being reported in mainland China?
If it starts to spark copycat riots there things could escalate.
If it starts to spark copycat riots there things could escalate.
This is how it's being reported if it's reported at all: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hkedition/2019-06/10/content_37...
Weird question, maybe a coincidence, but does anyone know why most of the signs are blue? Is that significant at all?
During the 2014 Umbrella movement protests, blue came to represent supporters of the police and the government and yellow, the protestors.
Awesome, thanks for the context. That's really interesting.
If this first-hand account from a person on twitter[0] is to be believed, it isn't.
This is a reply to a thread of photos from a WSJ journo on the ground from a few hours ago. The photos are interesting in themselves.
0: https://twitter.com/mbspinks/status/1138728407464796160
This is a reply to a thread of photos from a WSJ journo on the ground from a few hours ago. The photos are interesting in themselves.
0: https://twitter.com/mbspinks/status/1138728407464796160
i suspect its not being reported at all.
That's the beauty of state controlled media and the Great Firewall of China. It doesn't get reported much, and the parts that are is only the pro-Beijing opinion. To appear to provide an unbiased opinion, they will quote pro-Beijing Hong Kong news sources.
It is probably being suppressed from news and public discussion.
> How is this being reported in mainland China?
Nohow, at least in newspapers. Though, I see a lot of curious people checking out events on their phones. Most look at it with some bemusement.
Nohow, at least in newspapers. Though, I see a lot of curious people checking out events on their phones. Most look at it with some bemusement.
Found these posts from Inkstone helpful:
https://www.inkstonenews.com/politics/hong-kongs-extradition...
https://www.inkstonenews.com/china/hong-kong-part-china-why-...
https://www.inkstonenews.com/politics/hong-kongs-extradition...
https://www.inkstonenews.com/china/hong-kong-part-china-why-...
Thanks for sharing those. (I wrote them.)
ulfw(5)
Reads like propaganda
How so? I'm a bloodhound for PRC propaganda but it passed the smell test for me.
Because they don’t add any concession statements around how CCP has no social power or respect in Hong Kong. The article was so sterile it understated the need for autonomy in Hong Kong. The questions it answered were loaded and the answers were Xi Pooh approved.
Could someone explain my why they really protest? Anybody from Hong Kong here? I read a couple of different explanations and I'm not sure.
This video give a good summary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUl-J0oh3k0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUl-J0oh3k0
The BBC has a couple of explanations, first this video:
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-48599658/hong-k...
Secondly if you prefer a written summary:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-47810723
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-48599658/hong-k...
Secondly if you prefer a written summary:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-47810723
If the extradition law passes, anybody in Hong Kong (citizens and foreigners) can be extradited to face the capricious justice system of China. This is an existential crisis for Hong Kong. They can protest now, but they might not be able to protest in a year from now.
(this is based on my reading from various WSJ articles).
The short version is that Hong Kong was setup as a territory with its own government and justice arms (separate from mainland China). The proposed law would effectively make it so anyone that steps foot in Hong Kong would be subject to mainland China laws. There are restrictions in the bill, saying that the crime must have a sentence >= 7 years, and there must be a similar law on the books in Hong Kong. But the people fear it will be used to further extend China's influence into Hong Kong.
Hong Kong has been doing more bidding of mainland China over the last few years (after the failed 2014 call for democracy). For example, back in October, they deported a reporter for a meeting they didn't agree with[0].
[0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/hong-kong-ousts-journalist-who-...
The short version is that Hong Kong was setup as a territory with its own government and justice arms (separate from mainland China). The proposed law would effectively make it so anyone that steps foot in Hong Kong would be subject to mainland China laws. There are restrictions in the bill, saying that the crime must have a sentence >= 7 years, and there must be a similar law on the books in Hong Kong. But the people fear it will be used to further extend China's influence into Hong Kong.
Hong Kong has been doing more bidding of mainland China over the last few years (after the failed 2014 call for democracy). For example, back in October, they deported a reporter for a meeting they didn't agree with[0].
[0] https://www.wsj.com/articles/hong-kong-ousts-journalist-who-...
@JumpCrisscross covered it pretty well, tbh.
Not that this answers your question, but in the past, finance pros have also protested when the Stock Exchange moved to shorten its lunch break.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Stock_Exchange#Tradi...
Tl;dr Asia is...unique.
Not that this answers your question, but in the past, finance pros have also protested when the Stock Exchange moved to shorten its lunch break.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Stock_Exchange#Tradi...
Tl;dr Asia is...unique.
Here a few short videos with protestors explaining why they're there in their own words:
https://twitter.com/selsdon1/status/1138819361135661056
https://twitter.com/selsdon1/status/1138822264818769920
Can anyone close to the situation share the best way to support the protesters from outside of Hong Kong?
wyuenho(1)
Buy products from Hong Kong protesters, while boycotting products from those who support the Hong Kong government.
in order of effectiveness:
1) don't buy Chinese goods.
2) share news like this and other examples about how China treats dissidents on channels like LinkedIn which are frequented by Chinese and those doing business with China pretending it's all good.
3) protest outside a Chinese embassy (don't forget your umbrella)
4) if you're in the loop and aware of such things then call out those Western politicians pandering to Chinese bureaucrats (I'm aware of infrastructure projects in SE Europe and Africa where plenty of dark money flows ... hello Croatia Tourism board, BiH, Serbia, Montenegro ...)
1) don't buy Chinese goods.
2) share news like this and other examples about how China treats dissidents on channels like LinkedIn which are frequented by Chinese and those doing business with China pretending it's all good.
3) protest outside a Chinese embassy (don't forget your umbrella)
4) if you're in the loop and aware of such things then call out those Western politicians pandering to Chinese bureaucrats (I'm aware of infrastructure projects in SE Europe and Africa where plenty of dark money flows ... hello Croatia Tourism board, BiH, Serbia, Montenegro ...)
> 3) protest outside a Chinese embassy (don't forget your umbrella)
Here's my concern already. I have in-laws that live in China. I have a Chinese visa, and need to travel to China for work sometimes.
Won't doing this jeopardize me in some way? I'd be happy to participate if only I knew I'd never return to the country or had no ties there.
Here's my concern already. I have in-laws that live in China. I have a Chinese visa, and need to travel to China for work sometimes.
Won't doing this jeopardize me in some way? I'd be happy to participate if only I knew I'd never return to the country or had no ties there.
Make the sacrifice of ethical consumption. Refuse to support companies that are in the business of selling technology, weapons and other tools of subjugation to the party or allies of the party.
They should sell yellow umbrellas and t-shirts. I would buy one.
More and more people are going to flee to Singapore.
Anyone know what the tech scene there is like?
Anyone know what the tech scene there is like?
Oh that's a great idea. From a one-party state to another one-party state. Though of course those two can't be compared, I admit.
The Tech scene in Singapore, to answer your question, is about 10x what it is in Hong Kong. The big two are Grab and SEA though, which might not be for everyone. Tons of startups and a sizeable Google office (among others) as well.
The Tech scene in Singapore, to answer your question, is about 10x what it is in Hong Kong. The big two are Grab and SEA though, which might not be for everyone. Tons of startups and a sizeable Google office (among others) as well.
[deleted]
It's a one party state whose entire raison d'être is to be economically competitive, so I wouldn't worry.
(pw;dr) Well, that doesn't sound too bad, right? Here in France we have our tear gas and our rubber bullets too. All complete with torn hands and lost eyes.
Wait a minute, that doesn't sound too good after all…
Wait a minute, that doesn't sound too good after all…
Do they hit a girl like that?
https://www.facebook.com/105259197447/posts/1015774028165244...
Don't know about girls specifically, but I recall having seen images of something like 4-5 cops hitting one protestor in a similar manner.
Our police force is significantly more violent than the German one, and I think the English one as well.
Our police force is significantly more violent than the German one, and I think the English one as well.
Not being sexist here. By girl I literally meant the teenage girl as shown in the video or a teenager generally. I should've said a weak and scared person who's obviously incapable of defending him/herself nor willing to fight back.
From what you said perhaps sadly it does happen in France too.
From what you said perhaps sadly it does happen in France too.
I understand what you meant. And there is a sexist bias where hitting a teenage girl or an old lady is worse than hitting pretty much anyone else.
But that's not what we talk about most here. The main problem is more the general scare tactics. For instance with the Yellow Vests movements, there were several instance of the cops encircling the protestors without giving them an out, and then they threw tear gas at them. This terror technique is not just scary and uncomfortable, it's pretty darn dangerous, just because people get so tightly packed together. (One can be chocked just by the pressure).
But it's not as bad for PR as hitting a defenceless teenage girl.
But that's not what we talk about most here. The main problem is more the general scare tactics. For instance with the Yellow Vests movements, there were several instance of the cops encircling the protestors without giving them an out, and then they threw tear gas at them. This terror technique is not just scary and uncomfortable, it's pretty darn dangerous, just because people get so tightly packed together. (One can be chocked just by the pressure).
But it's not as bad for PR as hitting a defenceless teenage girl.
Firing rubber bullets at an unarmed guy's head, spraying pepper sprays down the stairs into a metro station behind people's backs...
Can we find something else to compete with? ...
Can we find something else to compete with? ...
[deleted]
[deleted]
[deleted]
So apparently this is deemed to be "some interesting new phenomenon" so that it does not violate the guidelines and stays "On-Topic".
If Charlottesville posts did not fly on this board why is this OK to be discussed?
I'm all for talking politics by the way.
If Charlottesville posts did not fly on this board why is this OK to be discussed?
I'm all for talking politics by the way.
> If Charlottesville posts did not fly on this board why is this OK to be discussed?
Charlottesville was an internal protest of limited global consequence. This is the disassembly of a system of limited democracy and rule of law. It’s much more meaningful on a broader scale, and interesting as a result.
Charlottesville was an internal protest of limited global consequence. This is the disassembly of a system of limited democracy and rule of law. It’s much more meaningful on a broader scale, and interesting as a result.
I'd say the rise of white nationalism is pretty meaningful and its impact on this administration (and foreign policy) has had significant consequences.
Thank you for putting this here. White nationalism has blinded many people who are unwittingly pushing the agenda to move past this difficult conversation.
Charlottesville was actually the downfall of those white nationalist groups. Ever since then they have lost supporters, been deplatformed, and pushed back into obscurity. Also, the type of militant white nationalism you saw at Charlottesville has definitely not had any real influence on the administration (just like how antifa protesters don't have any influence on the Democratic party).
> Also, the type of militant white nationalism you saw at Charlottesville has definitely not had any real influence on the administration (just like how antifa protesters don't have any influence on the Democratic party).
I'm honestly not sure if you're being sarcastic here.
I'm honestly not sure if you're being sarcastic here.
No, I am not. Many of these white nationalist types want to send all African Americans to Alaska gulag-style, yet you don't see Trump talking about that, do you? Where's the wall? What happened to Steve Bannon and all the non-mainstream Republicans that were in the white house? Why isn't Trump talking about deporting all Muslims? Moreover, these people also hate Israel because they are anti-Semitic, yet Trump is one of the biggest champions of Israel. You see, I am not talking about alt-lite people like Ben Shaprio, I am talking about the neo-nazi, "Defend Evropa" people who were the main sources of outrage during Charlottesville. These are not Fox news Republicans. These people have no actual power compared to the Koch Brothers and lobbyists who are the actual influencers in the white house.
Ah, I was looking at this the other way around, as a lot of people would say that Antifa protesters do in fact have some influence over the Democratic party.
> I'd say the rise of white nationalism is pretty meaningful and its impact on this administration (and foreign policy) has had significant consequences.
Like what?
Edit: no really, I'd like to know what you mean by this. As far as I can tell, white nationalists make up an extreme minority voting bloc, and are explicitly denounced and distanced from the current administration. I have absolutely no idea what foreign policy decisions "oshitsdom" is referring to, which have supposedly been influenced by a "rise of white nationalism". That would be a very serious event, and I genuinely want to know if there's some legitimate way of squinting at our shared reality which could give that impression.
Edit 2 because I'm rate limited: This is not a rhetorical question, except that nobody has answered honestly. It is a question that is answerable. To form it more explicitly: "Name an example of a consequential foreign policy decision of the current administration which is white nationalist in nature (invokes a desire to create a state where citizenship is contingent on having white skin), and which has clearly been influenced the a cultural force of a 'rise of white nationalism'."
Like what?
Edit: no really, I'd like to know what you mean by this. As far as I can tell, white nationalists make up an extreme minority voting bloc, and are explicitly denounced and distanced from the current administration. I have absolutely no idea what foreign policy decisions "oshitsdom" is referring to, which have supposedly been influenced by a "rise of white nationalism". That would be a very serious event, and I genuinely want to know if there's some legitimate way of squinting at our shared reality which could give that impression.
Edit 2 because I'm rate limited: This is not a rhetorical question, except that nobody has answered honestly. It is a question that is answerable. To form it more explicitly: "Name an example of a consequential foreign policy decision of the current administration which is white nationalist in nature (invokes a desire to create a state where citizenship is contingent on having white skin), and which has clearly been influenced the a cultural force of a 'rise of white nationalism'."
This question seems rhetorical and insincere. If you disagree, then it might be a better approach to say so than to feign curiosity.
>>As far as I can tell, white nationalists make up an extreme minority voting bloc, and are explicitly denounced and distanced from the current administration.
You are very wrong about the latter part. Trump's response to Charlottesville was so bad that the phrase "both sides" became a meme. To this day, he continues to downplay the problem.
You are very wrong about the latter part. Trump's response to Charlottesville was so bad that the phrase "both sides" became a meme. To this day, he continues to downplay the problem.
Sure, if you make every possible bad faith effort to misinterpret and obscure what somebody is saying, you'll come away with lots of spicy memes to share with your friends while you're busy agreeing with eachother. That doesn't so much mean you've made a sober assessment of the facts.
Also that is not foreign policy.
Also that is not foreign policy.
Trump saying that there were "good people on both sides" does not mean that he supports white nationalists, since not every group on the "unite the right" side was made of white nationalists.
You can certainly argue that he does, but please come up with things that aren't quite so easily argued around. (and I've yet to hear an argument for how he's a Nazi when his favorite daughter is literally an Orthodox Jew) The more we allow easily refuted arguments to propagate unopposed, the easier it is to assume that there are no legitimate arguments for a position.
You can certainly argue that he does, but please come up with things that aren't quite so easily argued around. (and I've yet to hear an argument for how he's a Nazi when his favorite daughter is literally an Orthodox Jew) The more we allow easily refuted arguments to propagate unopposed, the easier it is to assume that there are no legitimate arguments for a position.
Is it actually rising or is everyone not a part of it just becoming more aware of it because they're being reported on more?
I think the increased visibility of extremist groups even if said groups aren't increasing in number fits the recent trend of increased polarization. Both sides are screaming their heads off about "look-at all these terrible people on the other side"
Edit: The fact that the down-vote to "legitimate answer so my question" ratio right now is 3:1 makes me think that this is a very ideologically difficult question for people here.
I think the increased visibility of extremist groups even if said groups aren't increasing in number fits the recent trend of increased polarization. Both sides are screaming their heads off about "look-at all these terrible people on the other side"
Edit: The fact that the down-vote to "legitimate answer so my question" ratio right now is 3:1 makes me think that this is a very ideologically difficult question for people here.
From https://www.factcheck.org/2019/03/the-facts-on-white-nationa...
* The Southern Poverty Law Center reports a dramatic increase in the number of white nationalist groups in the U.S., from 100 chapters in 2017 to 148 in 2018.
* The Anti-Defamation League reports a 182 percent increase in incidents of the distribution of white supremacist propaganda, and an increase in the number of rallies and demonstrations by white supremacy groups, from 76 in 2017 to 91 in 2018.
* A study by the Center for Strategic and International Studies found the number of terrorist attacks by far-right perpetrators quadrupled in the U.S. between 2016 and 2017, and that far-right attacks in Europe rose 43 percent over the same period. Among those incidents, CSIS states, the rise of attacks by white supremacists and anti-government extremists is “of particular concern.”
* The Southern Poverty Law Center reports a dramatic increase in the number of white nationalist groups in the U.S., from 100 chapters in 2017 to 148 in 2018.
* The Anti-Defamation League reports a 182 percent increase in incidents of the distribution of white supremacist propaganda, and an increase in the number of rallies and demonstrations by white supremacy groups, from 76 in 2017 to 91 in 2018.
* A study by the Center for Strategic and International Studies found the number of terrorist attacks by far-right perpetrators quadrupled in the U.S. between 2016 and 2017, and that far-right attacks in Europe rose 43 percent over the same period. Among those incidents, CSIS states, the rise of attacks by white supremacists and anti-government extremists is “of particular concern.”
SPLC has come under increasing scrutiny as of late for making false accusations https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-southern-poverty...
'After years of smearing good people with false charges of bigotry, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) has finally been held to account. A former Islamic radical named Maajid Nawaz sued the center for including him in its bogus “Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists,” and this week the SPLC agreed to pay him a $3.375 million settlement and issued a public apology.'
'After years of smearing good people with false charges of bigotry, the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) has finally been held to account. A former Islamic radical named Maajid Nawaz sued the center for including him in its bogus “Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists,” and this week the SPLC agreed to pay him a $3.375 million settlement and issued a public apology.'
They've done this for a while. They've even put subreddits (theredpill) as a hate group as well. (Yes, they're a less savory sub.. but an organized group no).
Also a thing to note: They've put pepe as an official hate symbol. (Sigh.. poor pepe)
Also a thing to note: They've put pepe as an official hate symbol. (Sigh.. poor pepe)
I see that they made one mistake in that opinion article. FRC is a hate group and Charles Murray is racist, or at least he was when he wrote The Bell Curve.
It's hard to see how this one case invalidates the research presented by the GP.
I think the FBI numbers are more reliable, though not perfect, and they show a 17% increase but that figure also includes anti-white violence. So there is s rise but not to the degree claimed by those other orgs.
I think the FBI is neutral whereas other sources tend to have biases so they’d require additional scrutiny.
I think the FBI is neutral whereas other sources tend to have biases so they’d require additional scrutiny.
And even the FBI's numbers are vulnerable to a reporting bias. (People may report things as a hate crime today that they would not have five years ago due to interested visibility)
Measuring this sort of thing is hard, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
Measuring this sort of thing is hard, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
The FBI is required to collect data about hate crimes, but local police departments are not required to report the data. So the FBI data only represents voluntary reporting.
Unless that changes from year to year (NYC reports this year, but not next), this should still be representative of the overall trend.
Interest groups, although well meaning, are like internal organizations preparing next year’s budget. Borderline issues cease to be borderline. (Was it domestic violence, was it hate? Obviously there is potential for both, but there’s interpretative subjectivity)
Interest groups, although well meaning, are like internal organizations preparing next year’s budget. Borderline issues cease to be borderline. (Was it domestic violence, was it hate? Obviously there is potential for both, but there’s interpretative subjectivity)
Unless red areas become increasingly politicized and decide to report less or end reporting.
But that’s counterbalanced by blue areas who may be inclined to report more...
Anyway, this is speculative. I think I trust the FBI to be more neutral than interested parties for these numbers.
Anyway, this is speculative. I think I trust the FBI to be more neutral than interested parties for these numbers.
The point is the FBI is a neutral collection point, but the source of data isn't as stable or systematic as those by advocacy groups trying to make more complete estimates.
From your linked article, as well:
> According to the FBI, there were 7,175 hate crime incidents in 2017, a 17 percent increase from 2016 and the third year in a row with an increase. The number of incidents in 2017 was also the highest yearly total since 2008. About 58 percent of the hate crimes in 2017 were motivated by race/ethnicity/ancestry.
In addition, FBI Director Christopher Wray testified back in April that White nationalist violence is a “persistent, pervasive threat”.
https://www.vox.com/2019/4/4/18295358/fbi-white-nationalism-...
> According to the FBI, there were 7,175 hate crime incidents in 2017, a 17 percent increase from 2016 and the third year in a row with an increase. The number of incidents in 2017 was also the highest yearly total since 2008. About 58 percent of the hate crimes in 2017 were motivated by race/ethnicity/ancestry.
In addition, FBI Director Christopher Wray testified back in April that White nationalist violence is a “persistent, pervasive threat”.
https://www.vox.com/2019/4/4/18295358/fbi-white-nationalism-...
> The Southern Poverty Law Center
The SPLC is an extremely unreliable source, who has been successfully sued for arbitrarily defaming people. Their classifications of incidents are deliberately misleading, and classify anti-government acts as "right wing", despite the fact that a huge number of lefty anarchists exist in the U.S.
> Among those incidents, CSIS states, the rise of attacks by white supremacists and anti-government extremists is “of particular concern.”
Why combine these? This would include lefty anarchists, who have a consistent and increasing record of well documented political violence. It completely obscures the point you're supposedly trying to make.
(P.S. wtf did they have to call it CSIS? Very confusing since this is the acronym for our intelligence services here in Canada)
The SPLC is an extremely unreliable source, who has been successfully sued for arbitrarily defaming people. Their classifications of incidents are deliberately misleading, and classify anti-government acts as "right wing", despite the fact that a huge number of lefty anarchists exist in the U.S.
> Among those incidents, CSIS states, the rise of attacks by white supremacists and anti-government extremists is “of particular concern.”
Why combine these? This would include lefty anarchists, who have a consistent and increasing record of well documented political violence. It completely obscures the point you're supposedly trying to make.
(P.S. wtf did they have to call it CSIS? Very confusing since this is the acronym for our intelligence services here in Canada)
Rather than attacking the source, perhaps you could consider the findings?
> Rather than attacking the source, perhaps you could consider the findings?
I do that too, if you look at what I said. But surely an unreliable source can't be allowed to burden everyone with continually disproving them. The SPLC has no credibility, I don't see why anyone should have to dismantle their arguments any more than any other activist publisher (occupy democrats, the daily mail, the daily stormer).
It is very difficult to win a defamation suit in the U.S. The SPLC have been proven a fraud in the courts, that's an extremely high bar of bullshit.
I do that too, if you look at what I said. But surely an unreliable source can't be allowed to burden everyone with continually disproving them. The SPLC has no credibility, I don't see why anyone should have to dismantle their arguments any more than any other activist publisher (occupy democrats, the daily mail, the daily stormer).
It is very difficult to win a defamation suit in the U.S. The SPLC have been proven a fraud in the courts, that's an extremely high bar of bullshit.
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Because China is emotionally distant enough from most HN commenters that it does not trigger a flame war.
Apparently posts are considered too political when several people flag them. There are no hard rules that actually apply.
The difference between "politics" and "world events" typically comes down to the geography of the observer.
Because white nationalism is alive and strong even here.
Well for me, many technology companies do their best to do business in China. Apple, which loves to tell the world how much they support human rights, builds iPhones and other products in China regardless of how bad China's record is and more.
Yeah, my latest soap box is, companies have no right to tell us how great their rights support is, human, privacy, or otherwise, if they continue to produce product in a country like China, which seems to be doubling down on suppression.
Yeah, my latest soap box is, companies have no right to tell us how great their rights support is, human, privacy, or otherwise, if they continue to produce product in a country like China, which seems to be doubling down on suppression.
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HN like other social online spaces is not neutral or free from influence. For example I would imagine upvotes are trivial to astroturf.
A quick search:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=purchase+upvotes+hackernews&ia=soc...
A quick search:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=purchase+upvotes+hackernews&ia=soc...
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The rules are only enforced in order to reduce flame wars. They're not strictly followed and generally speaking whatever the mods feel like goes.
Exactly. It’s not enough to say “oh we are trying to stop flame wars” when we are trying to talk about these topics to stop literal wars from occurring.
You know why :)
This is one way to commemorate Tiananmen Square protest’s 30th anniversary
Massacre. It wasn't just a protest. Hundreds were gunned down and their bodies squished by tanks.
Be aware that the famous "tank man" was not actually run over. You can see the rest of the video if you look online.
The CIA files have also been leaked which provides more information about that happened that day. As always the truth seems to be somewhere in the middle. Not as bad as the western media says it was but worse than the Chinese government admits.
I always find it weird that no one seems to care about the Nanjing massacre which was much bigger or that Tulsa massacre which most Americans seem to be unaware of...
The CIA files have also been leaked which provides more information about that happened that day. As always the truth seems to be somewhere in the middle. Not as bad as the western media says it was but worse than the Chinese government admits.
I always find it weird that no one seems to care about the Nanjing massacre which was much bigger or that Tulsa massacre which most Americans seem to be unaware of...
*>Be aware that the famous "tank man" was not actually run over. You can see the rest of the video if you look online.
I'm not sure how that is relevant and I believe the declassified material you are referring to was an NSA cable sent on the day of the event, when very little was known. Wikipedia has details on the various sources for anyone interested.
The Nanjing Massacre was a horrific incident and I would urge anyone visiting Nanjing to visit the memorial.
That said, one incident was a wartime civilian massacre from an invading army where that army has been defeated and is largely a different country now. The other was the killing of protesting civilians by their own government, which is still in power and broadly unchanged.
Given this, it's clear why one is more topical than the other
I'm not sure how that is relevant and I believe the declassified material you are referring to was an NSA cable sent on the day of the event, when very little was known. Wikipedia has details on the various sources for anyone interested.
The Nanjing Massacre was a horrific incident and I would urge anyone visiting Nanjing to visit the memorial.
That said, one incident was a wartime civilian massacre from an invading army where that army has been defeated and is largely a different country now. The other was the killing of protesting civilians by their own government, which is still in power and broadly unchanged.
Given this, it's clear why one is more topical than the other
Growing up I was taught about the "tank man" and that no one knew what happened after the photo and if he was run over or not ... a partial lie. We know that he was taken away by other civilians and wasn't run over.
I was never taught about the Nanjing massacre or Unit 731 but we spent a lot of time talking about Tiananmen square and Holocaust.
I now know that a lot of my education was biased and I assume other people are completely unaware. Most people I've talked to don't know about the rest of the video which is why I brought it up.
I was never taught about the Nanjing massacre or Unit 731 but we spent a lot of time talking about Tiananmen square and Holocaust.
I now know that a lot of my education was biased and I assume other people are completely unaware. Most people I've talked to don't know about the rest of the video which is why I brought it up.
The identity and fate of Tank Man is generally unknown. If you have information to the contrary, please share it.
When I was a young adult I found out there was a video BUT this is the only section they showed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4woMuFZAx88
Now I found out that the media has had this footage the whole time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq8zFLIftGk
My favourite part is the grandmother that comes up and tells him off for annoying the tank.
Now I found out that the media has had this footage the whole time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq8zFLIftGk
My favourite part is the grandmother that comes up and tells him off for annoying the tank.
That's not really conclusive evidence that he wasn't identified by the government and rounded up later, though.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protes...
Please do research before posting comments on a sensitive subject.
There was more to Tiananmen than Tank Man.
Please do research before posting comments on a sensitive subject.
There was more to Tiananmen than Tank Man.
What is your goal in bringing up these unrelated massacres? Neither one is the same as the Tiananmen massacre, as in neither of those two cases was the government killing its own people in response to peaceful protest.
> Be aware that the famous "tank man" was not actually run over.
I've never heard anyone say that he was.
I've never heard anyone say that he was.
When I was at school I was told that all we had was this one photo and we didn't know what happened to him. I assume other people were told the same thing.
It turns out that there was a video that shows him being taken away by other civilians the whole time.
It turns out that there was a video that shows him being taken away by other civilians the whole time.
This might be the most transparent and desperate “whatabout” I have ever seen on Hacker News.
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This comment breaks the site guidelines. There's no reason to assume that adinobro is commenting in bad faith. It's far more likely that he or she simply has a different background than you, and therefore a different view.
Meanwhile, insinuations of disinformation, ill intent, shillage, spying, foreign agents, and all the rest of it, poison the well of this community. It's a big problem. Please don't do it again, regardless of how strongly you feel about some issue or country.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Meanwhile, insinuations of disinformation, ill intent, shillage, spying, foreign agents, and all the rest of it, poison the well of this community. It's a big problem. Please don't do it again, regardless of how strongly you feel about some issue or country.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Everything that I've read said that they did.
I was just told disinformation growing up along with virtually everyone I grew up with. Maybe your country was more honest about it but mine wasn't (Australia). Most people that I talk to still think he was run over.
I made the point because I assume other people don't know either...
I was just told disinformation growing up along with virtually everyone I grew up with. Maybe your country was more honest about it but mine wasn't (Australia). Most people that I talk to still think he was run over.
I made the point because I assume other people don't know either...
I also grew up in Australia (Melbourne) in the 90s and whilst we were told at the time we don't know what happened to him -- and it's true, at the time we didn't know -- there were no assumptions made about his fate. In fact we were explicitly told not to make any assumptions without facts, as part of the lessons on how to consume news media.
The videos on him were released only much later on.
The videos on him were released only much later on.
I found out (as an adult) that the first 10 seconds of this video had been aired: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4woMuFZAx88
My teacher should have known about it.
Now I found out that the media has had this footage the whole time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq8zFLIftGk but didn't air it.
I understand why. It was blatant propaganda from the west. It makes the story more interesting since people wonder if he was run over which was never stated but implied when I was told: "we don't know what happened after this photo was taken".
My teacher should have known about it.
Now I found out that the media has had this footage the whole time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq8zFLIftGk but didn't air it.
I understand why. It was blatant propaganda from the west. It makes the story more interesting since people wonder if he was run over which was never stated but implied when I was told: "we don't know what happened after this photo was taken".
I mean, we do not know what happened to him after the photo was taken. He very well could have been rounded up later and executed.
Why are you assuming that it's propaganda? You are the only one in this thread who seems to have associated Tank Man with being run over. Nobody else thought that happened, because there was no footage of it. It's just you.
Why are you assuming that it's propaganda? You are the only one in this thread who seems to have associated Tank Man with being run over. Nobody else thought that happened, because there was no footage of it. It's just you.
Roughly 1,000 people died. The population of Beijing was roughly 10,000,000. Chances are he went home and was ignored since he wasn't a student protestor and was basically a nobody. The most boring answer is most likely to be true but no one ever says that. Everyone always says "maybe he was killed".
The reason why I call it propaganda is because it is. The photos and videos are true. But the media decided to just show a small clip of the footage to make it more dramatic and suppressed the whole clip for years. The whole clip is less dramatic. Basically the same as the 3rd example https://www.boredpanda.com/examples-media-truth-manipulation...
Look at all the videos for the 30-year anniversary. None of them use the full clip. All the ones I've seen either just include the photo or cut out as the 3rd tank roles to a stop.
I've become more disillusioned with the media the more I travel and experience news as it happens and see how biased it is.
The reason why I call it propaganda is because it is. The photos and videos are true. But the media decided to just show a small clip of the footage to make it more dramatic and suppressed the whole clip for years. The whole clip is less dramatic. Basically the same as the 3rd example https://www.boredpanda.com/examples-media-truth-manipulation...
Look at all the videos for the 30-year anniversary. None of them use the full clip. All the ones I've seen either just include the photo or cut out as the 3rd tank roles to a stop.
I've become more disillusioned with the media the more I travel and experience news as it happens and see how biased it is.
"As far as can be determined from the available evidence, no one died that night in Tiananmen Square." But hundreds of people did die elsewhere in Beijing. https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananm...
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Sorry but this is not why I read Hacker News.
When I want this kind of content I open reddit.
When I want this kind of content I open reddit.
There's a huge variety of stories here, from Hong Kong protests to category theory. You could just skip over the ones you aren't interested in...
I did not see this on reddit, so thank you HN
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/
screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/q0bx2Uy.png
You're welcome.
screenshot: https://i.imgur.com/q0bx2Uy.png
You're welcome.
If you feel something doesn't belong on the site, please use the flagging feature.
Going into the comments and posting that you don't think something belongs on the site rarely leads to a productive conversation.
Going into the comments and posting that you don't think something belongs on the site rarely leads to a productive conversation.
Could there be a reasonable compromise? For example each extradition case must be reviewed by an independent court or a board made of independent citizen representatives. A very high bar for extradition with sufficient due process can hopefully minimize CCP interference while preventing Hong Kong from becoming a safe haven for criminals and corrupt CCP officials.
The case you're mentioning is well understood by the Honk Kong citizens, and your suggestions has already been addressed. In fact, the extradition to China was at first only allowed if the crime required 2 years of jail time in Honk Kong to make a case, then after the protests it got pushed to 7 years. But watch this YT video, as the HK citizens tell you why this is still a bad idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0i9yVphOZ8
ps: i'm not telling you why because #1) I won't do it justice and #2) it's worth watching the whole YT video.
ps: i'm not telling you why because #1) I won't do it justice and #2) it's worth watching the whole YT video.
That is exactly what was proposed by the HKBAR, but obviously it was refused. This isn't really just about extradition, it's about giving China enough power to capture anyone passing through Hong Kong that's worth a bargaining chip or two, which could mean a lot of investors and truly innovative founders here.
I still don't understand why a robust review process cannot prevent China from capturing anyone passing through Hong Kong. What about letting protesters to form a committee to decide how can be extradited?
Because we don't have an army, so naturally power flows to pro-beijing camps. In this game you win by being pro-beijing. ANd there's the effect of diffusion. There's already news on the LegCo security team having to proclaim their political inclination, who're supposed to have to act politically neutral. The only person who refused to take pro-beijing side got bullied, sidelined to the point where she had resort to psychiatrist.
Because legitimacy of legal documents can be a joke, in a "human-based rule of law system" China. Judges and lawyers are openly oppose to this themselves since they can only decide base on prima facie evidence, so they have no real power.
Because China can and does lock people up base on speech, or even thoughts.
Because legitimacy of legal documents can be a joke, in a "human-based rule of law system" China. Judges and lawyers are openly oppose to this themselves since they can only decide base on prima facie evidence, so they have no real power.
Because China can and does lock people up base on speech, or even thoughts.
Because the only thing the local courts in HK will be able to do is to simply review the "evidence" presented and not able to launch their own investigations as to whether the allegations presented are valid.
In other words, there will never be a robust process because that is simply impossible.
In other words, there will never be a robust process because that is simply impossible.
Why not? Firstly it doesn’t have to be a rule based traditional court. A jury panel of hk citizens could examine evidence and have a vote of conscience. Secondly hk citizens who are reviewing extradition cases could be representatives from the protesters, who have shown their will to fight against oppression.
But this is not how the proposed legislation is written, is it?
The new law does that, the prior/current law does that. The new law REDUCES the number of codified crimes you can be extradited for, from over 45 down to 37.
What is accurate?
Yes, perhaps mainland China could exert influence over the independent court or counsel and create bargaining chips.
Yes, perhaps many of the protestors don't know the existing and proposed flowchart of how deportations work. Perhaps many do and feel compelled to broadcast their ideological stance.
This is primarily an ideological issue, this is more about the principle itself. The people of Hong Kong want the representatives that they are skeptical of already to know that merely creating the avenue for deportation to China is an ideological line not to cross.
What is accurate?
Yes, perhaps mainland China could exert influence over the independent court or counsel and create bargaining chips.
Yes, perhaps many of the protestors don't know the existing and proposed flowchart of how deportations work. Perhaps many do and feel compelled to broadcast their ideological stance.
This is primarily an ideological issue, this is more about the principle itself. The people of Hong Kong want the representatives that they are skeptical of already to know that merely creating the avenue for deportation to China is an ideological line not to cross.