Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned(wsj.com)
wsj.com
Hong Kong Leader Backs Down on China Law But More Protests Planned
https://www.wsj.com/articles/hong-kong-to-suspend-controversial-extradition-bill-11560579580?mod=rsswn
77 comments
Of course it is going to lose more and more independence. The one country two system was designed to integrate, not dividing China and HK. The independence movement concentrate too much on 'two systems', bringing 'HK is not China' banner in parliament, trying to make China disappear in text books, do you think the central government is going to extend two systems after 50 years expires?
[deleted]
Oh, well, as a "mainlander", I tell you: Hong Kong citizens WILL lose all their rights, and it will come sooner than you think.
If you watched this protest and all their other protests, it is very easy to see one thing: Their action is isolated， they don't have the power to unite people other than themselves. Nobody besides themselves will stand for them. Nobody in mainland support them, nobody in mainland understand them. Many mainlanders even developed Schadenfreude when looking at those protests.
(OK, "Nobody" is a bit of over exaggeration, but fairly right if you want to feel the situation)
Why? Because they are protest only for their own rights, on their own little land that nobody cares anymore. It's not about greater good, not "making the entire China democratic". Just "We're Hongkongers, we are special, so we must have those rights", while don't give a damn when the rest of China is been stripped clean.
How many HongKonger protested when Xi changed the Constitution? Not this much.
Nobody cares about your right if you don't defend the right of the others. 50 years, if they don't change China for the better, China will change them, as simple as that.
If you watched this protest and all their other protests, it is very easy to see one thing: Their action is isolated， they don't have the power to unite people other than themselves. Nobody besides themselves will stand for them. Nobody in mainland support them, nobody in mainland understand them. Many mainlanders even developed Schadenfreude when looking at those protests.
(OK, "Nobody" is a bit of over exaggeration, but fairly right if you want to feel the situation)
Why? Because they are protest only for their own rights, on their own little land that nobody cares anymore. It's not about greater good, not "making the entire China democratic". Just "We're Hongkongers, we are special, so we must have those rights", while don't give a damn when the rest of China is been stripped clean.
How many HongKonger protested when Xi changed the Constitution? Not this much.
Nobody cares about your right if you don't defend the right of the others. 50 years, if they don't change China for the better, China will change them, as simple as that.
Disclosure: Hong Konger
> Why? Because they are protest only for their own rights, on their own little land that nobody cares anymore. It's not about greater good, not "making the entire China democratic". Just "We're Hongkongers, we are special, so we must have those rights", while don't give a damn when the rest of China is been stripped clean.
Every year on 4 June, Hong Kong people hold a vigil in Victoria Park for the Tiananmen square crackdown [1][2], and one main theme of the vigil is to continue the spirit of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests: to make the entire China democratic (one of the slogans is 建設民主中國, literally to make China democratic). In these years, this vigil in Hong Kong is the largest gathering to demand making the entire China democratic in the whole world.
Given that Hong Kong people are doing that every year on 4 June, I think it is reasonable that in this case--anti extraditions law protests on 9 June and 16 June this year--Hong Kong people are doing something else. But this does not mean that Hong Kong people do not fight for democracy in China or for greater good--to say the least, this anti extraditions law protest also benefits foreigners who stay in Hong Kong, or merely in transit.
Also, there are 6000 PLA troops stationed in Hong Kong, and there were cases of Hong Kong people getting abducted into China for publishing books that some members of CCP do not like [3]. There are not much more that Hong Kong people can do for themselves and for mainlanders... if you have better suggestions, please let us know.
I think they are doing their best.
> Nobody cares about your right if you don't defend the right of the others.
Then what have mainlanders done for Hong Kong?
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=64+hong+kong+vi...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorials_for_the_1989_Tiananm...
[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...
> Why? Because they are protest only for their own rights, on their own little land that nobody cares anymore. It's not about greater good, not "making the entire China democratic". Just "We're Hongkongers, we are special, so we must have those rights", while don't give a damn when the rest of China is been stripped clean.
Every year on 4 June, Hong Kong people hold a vigil in Victoria Park for the Tiananmen square crackdown [1][2], and one main theme of the vigil is to continue the spirit of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests: to make the entire China democratic (one of the slogans is 建設民主中國, literally to make China democratic). In these years, this vigil in Hong Kong is the largest gathering to demand making the entire China democratic in the whole world.
Given that Hong Kong people are doing that every year on 4 June, I think it is reasonable that in this case--anti extraditions law protests on 9 June and 16 June this year--Hong Kong people are doing something else. But this does not mean that Hong Kong people do not fight for democracy in China or for greater good--to say the least, this anti extraditions law protest also benefits foreigners who stay in Hong Kong, or merely in transit.
Also, there are 6000 PLA troops stationed in Hong Kong, and there were cases of Hong Kong people getting abducted into China for publishing books that some members of CCP do not like [3]. There are not much more that Hong Kong people can do for themselves and for mainlanders... if you have better suggestions, please let us know.
I think they are doing their best.
> Nobody cares about your right if you don't defend the right of the others.
Then what have mainlanders done for Hong Kong?
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=64+hong+kong+vi...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorials_for_the_1989_Tiananm...
[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...
> Then what have mainlanders done for Hong Kong?
Nothing good, and it will continue to be this way.
And it's NOT out of despision, no, it's simply because it's impossible to do it safely in China. The political climate here is so toxic and dangerous, it is unethical to even think to put people on street.
But, one thing HongKongers must understand is, your future is linked with mainlanders, for better or worse. We may not see each other eye to eye on other many topics, but this, this is the problem we both facing.
Also, many mainlanders is actually quite supportive about some protests. Simply search Twitter with the right keyword you can find many https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=%E6%9...
Nothing good, and it will continue to be this way.
And it's NOT out of despision, no, it's simply because it's impossible to do it safely in China. The political climate here is so toxic and dangerous, it is unethical to even think to put people on street.
But, one thing HongKongers must understand is, your future is linked with mainlanders, for better or worse. We may not see each other eye to eye on other many topics, but this, this is the problem we both facing.
Also, many mainlanders is actually quite supportive about some protests. Simply search Twitter with the right keyword you can find many https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=%E6%9...
> And it's NOT out of despision, no, it's simply because it's impossible to do it safely in China. The political climate here is so toxic and dangerous, it is unethical to even think to put people on street.
We, Hong Kong people as a whole, understand that mainlanders face much more difficulty in speaking up, and we are sympathetic. We definitely do not despise mainlanders for not speaking up in a way that we can see. The current protest does not mention democratic movement in China because we want to have a focus: on the extraditions law itself.
> But, one thing HongKongers must understand is, your future is linked with mainlanders, for better or worse. We may not see each other eye to eye on other many topics, but this, this is the problem we both facing.
Hong Kong people understand and agree that we are facing the same opposition--the oppressive regime in China--and our time is dated: Hong Kong people are counting the number of years until 2047, which is 50 years after the handover of Hong Kong to China in 1997, after which the "two systems" may disappear. And we are also questioning if the "two systems", the promised anatomy of Hong Kong from China, may disappear before 2047. One reason you see so many Hong Kong people in the current protest, is the fear that if they don't speak up now, they cannot speak up later.
> Also, many mainlanders is actually quite supportive about some protests. Simply search Twitter with the right keyword you can find many https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=%E6%9....
We thank the support from mainlanders given their difficulty, and also for the support from the whole world. Such attention on Hong Kong is very much needed and appreciated.
I read from your comment in another thread that many mainlanders are trying to earn money to trade for freedom: better social status in China, or to move to another country. In fact, I think there are lots of mainlanders who went overseas, and they are enjoying the freedom and protection in another country. If we, Hong Kong people and overseas mainlanders, unite together, there is a lot more that we can do.
Your speaking up here in Hacker News is a good start, and we together can try to do more.
We, Hong Kong people as a whole, understand that mainlanders face much more difficulty in speaking up, and we are sympathetic. We definitely do not despise mainlanders for not speaking up in a way that we can see. The current protest does not mention democratic movement in China because we want to have a focus: on the extraditions law itself.
> But, one thing HongKongers must understand is, your future is linked with mainlanders, for better or worse. We may not see each other eye to eye on other many topics, but this, this is the problem we both facing.
Hong Kong people understand and agree that we are facing the same opposition--the oppressive regime in China--and our time is dated: Hong Kong people are counting the number of years until 2047, which is 50 years after the handover of Hong Kong to China in 1997, after which the "two systems" may disappear. And we are also questioning if the "two systems", the promised anatomy of Hong Kong from China, may disappear before 2047. One reason you see so many Hong Kong people in the current protest, is the fear that if they don't speak up now, they cannot speak up later.
> Also, many mainlanders is actually quite supportive about some protests. Simply search Twitter with the right keyword you can find many https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=%E6%9....
We thank the support from mainlanders given their difficulty, and also for the support from the whole world. Such attention on Hong Kong is very much needed and appreciated.
I read from your comment in another thread that many mainlanders are trying to earn money to trade for freedom: better social status in China, or to move to another country. In fact, I think there are lots of mainlanders who went overseas, and they are enjoying the freedom and protection in another country. If we, Hong Kong people and overseas mainlanders, unite together, there is a lot more that we can do.
Your speaking up here in Hacker News is a good start, and we together can try to do more.
A bit hypocritical of you to complain about them not protesting for your rights, when you are unwilling to protest for theirs.
I was actually expecting this kind of comment.
People in HongKong only have this few years left to able conduct protest at that scale while keeping themselves relatively safe.
In China mainland, you do that, you're in prison for life or worst.
You know what, "worst" is not good enough to describe what could happen. There was a case that might show you what could happen if the police got you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Jia
Yang Jia was a man who killed 6 police mans in 2008. Why? Because the police interrogated him for riding an unregistered bicycle. The method of interrogation which the English version of Wikipedia does not fully mention (But mentioned in the Chinese version) including electrically shock this man's genital cause it to dysfunction.
Let me ask you this: Will you risk your life to protest for your right knowing there will be no good end for you after?
So that's why currently, the safest thing for mainlanders to do is focus on earning money, and use the money to trade for freedom (For example: to have a better social status and/or to be able to move to another country etc), and hope for things could change for the better in the future.
I hope now you can understand why I'm so "hypocritical" on this.
People in HongKong only have this few years left to able conduct protest at that scale while keeping themselves relatively safe.
In China mainland, you do that, you're in prison for life or worst.
You know what, "worst" is not good enough to describe what could happen. There was a case that might show you what could happen if the police got you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yang_Jia
Yang Jia was a man who killed 6 police mans in 2008. Why? Because the police interrogated him for riding an unregistered bicycle. The method of interrogation which the English version of Wikipedia does not fully mention (But mentioned in the Chinese version) including electrically shock this man's genital cause it to dysfunction.
Let me ask you this: Will you risk your life to protest for your right knowing there will be no good end for you after?
So that's why currently, the safest thing for mainlanders to do is focus on earning money, and use the money to trade for freedom (For example: to have a better social status and/or to be able to move to another country etc), and hope for things could change for the better in the future.
I hope now you can understand why I'm so "hypocritical" on this.
China is a bilion people ruled by small clique and their security apparatus. If you guys unite you will be unstoppable.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1989
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutions_of_1989
...at the cost of the lives of most of our friends and family.
No thanks, like one of the other posters said, focusing on earning more money is the best way of making it.
Freedom's overrated when food/shelter/amenities/relaxation options are plentiful. And if these start to suffer, having enough money gives access to other areas of the world.
No thanks, like one of the other posters said, focusing on earning more money is the best way of making it.
Freedom's overrated when food/shelter/amenities/relaxation options are plentiful. And if these start to suffer, having enough money gives access to other areas of the world.
“as much as I love China and can understand their politics due to the size of their country”
The size of China is not the source of their politics; the source is a totalitarian state that ruthlessly suppresses any dissent and maintains constant surveillance of its people. Not to imply that you meant otherwise, but the citizens of mainland China are no less deserving of political rights than those of Hong Kong; rather, they have simply been denied them by those in power. The 30th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre was only last week —- it could have ended similarly in Hong Kong. Also, unsurprisingly, Chinese media has been almost completely silent about these protests and many on the mainland are completely unaware that anything is happening at all.
The size of China is not the source of their politics; the source is a totalitarian state that ruthlessly suppresses any dissent and maintains constant surveillance of its people. Not to imply that you meant otherwise, but the citizens of mainland China are no less deserving of political rights than those of Hong Kong; rather, they have simply been denied them by those in power. The 30th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre was only last week —- it could have ended similarly in Hong Kong. Also, unsurprisingly, Chinese media has been almost completely silent about these protests and many on the mainland are completely unaware that anything is happening at all.
I'm curious where all these concerned westerners were when hk was undemocratically ruled by the Brits as a colony.
Were they ignorant of what they meant at the time or did they not care so long as others were ruled by their own?
Were they ignorant of what they meant at the time or did they not care so long as others were ruled by their own?
I'm curious why you're all over this thread pretending that China didn't block the UK from making Hong Kong democratic for over 60 years.
Which is something I learned about in the Western media, by the way, and that it would be nearly impossible to learn in Chinese media.
Also the claim that these protests were caused by foreign influence is wrong and insulting. It also echos what the higher-level CCP members have been saying.
Which is something I learned about in the Western media, by the way, and that it would be nearly impossible to learn in Chinese media.
Also the claim that these protests were caused by foreign influence is wrong and insulting. It also echos what the higher-level CCP members have been saying.
> block the UK from making Hong Kong democratic for over 60 years
Citation needed. Also, the UK is extremely famous for intentionally or unintentionally leaving a mess when it leaves, any sane government will not just let the British do whatever they want.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/opinion/india-pakistan-pa...
> nearly impossible to learn in Chinese media
It is also nearly impossible to learn anything about the opium wars in Western media, or how the governors of HK are all appointed by the British monarch directly. So I guess we are even here.
> Also the claim that these protests were caused by foreign influence is wrong and insulting.
Then what is this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democra...
BTW he/she said "largely encouraged".
Citation needed. Also, the UK is extremely famous for intentionally or unintentionally leaving a mess when it leaves, any sane government will not just let the British do whatever they want.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/opinion/india-pakistan-pa...
> nearly impossible to learn in Chinese media
It is also nearly impossible to learn anything about the opium wars in Western media, or how the governors of HK are all appointed by the British monarch directly. So I guess we are even here.
> Also the claim that these protests were caused by foreign influence is wrong and insulting.
Then what is this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democra...
BTW he/she said "largely encouraged".
>Citation needed.
Here ya go (he has further citations at the bottom if you're really interested):
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/...
Regardless of whose fault it is, it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the people of HK should have self-determination.
>It is also nearly impossible to learn anything about the opium wars in Western media, or how the governors of HK are all appointed by the British monarch directly.
I don't know about that, I learned about it in high school. Here's a more recent book and review about it:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/07/02/book...
>Then what is this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democra....
>BTW he/she said "largely encouraged".
So the existence of the NED proves to you that a large portion of the protestors in Hong Kong are foreign-influenced? Okay. Personally, I think it's more likely that they're concerned about their rights and it's insulting to say otherwise.
Here ya go (he has further citations at the bottom if you're really interested):
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/...
Regardless of whose fault it is, it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the people of HK should have self-determination.
>It is also nearly impossible to learn anything about the opium wars in Western media, or how the governors of HK are all appointed by the British monarch directly.
I don't know about that, I learned about it in high school. Here's a more recent book and review about it:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/07/02/book...
>Then what is this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democra....
>BTW he/she said "largely encouraged".
So the existence of the NED proves to you that a large portion of the protestors in Hong Kong are foreign-influenced? Okay. Personally, I think it's more likely that they're concerned about their rights and it's insulting to say otherwise.
The foreign-infueced theme and "anarchists" are obvious responses from central power using force when a large protest happens. They will never admit that they are the ones who created the problem in the first place.
Throwaway because I don’t want to be brigaded.
It appears Britain only tried to give them democracy when they knew the writing was on the wall. That seems disingenuous to suggest it was China that blocked them.
While technically true, if Britain truly wanted to help the Hong King people, they would have offered citizenship and let them immigrate, like Portugal did for Macau.
Instead, the British tried to stop Portugal from doing so, because they didn’t want to offer the people of Hong Kong citizenship.
It appears Britain only tried to give them democracy when they knew the writing was on the wall. That seems disingenuous to suggest it was China that blocked them.
While technically true, if Britain truly wanted to help the Hong King people, they would have offered citizenship and let them immigrate, like Portugal did for Macau.
Instead, the British tried to stop Portugal from doing so, because they didn’t want to offer the people of Hong Kong citizenship.
Interesting. I can promise you I'm not being disingenuous, even if I'm wrong. And I think "brigading" is more of a Reddit thing - it usually means when people from an opposing subreddit mass downvote a post.
I definitely think Britain should have offered citizenship. I'm surprised they didn't want to.
I definitely think Britain should have offered citizenship. I'm surprised they didn't want to.
Well we were all over 20 years younger, so I’m not sure you can act like we’re talking about the exact same people.
we weren't born yet.
agent00f(2)
“During her news conference, Ms. Lam pinned blame for the chaos on the government failing to effectively explain to people why the bill was needed, rather than conceding protesters’ arguments that the law was flawed.”
Politically savvy approach, but completely ridiculous. HKers understand exactly what this bill would do to them.
Nothing makes me more angry than bureaucrats with bad intentions treating the people that pay their salaries like children.
Politically savvy approach, but completely ridiculous. HKers understand exactly what this bill would do to them.
Nothing makes me more angry than bureaucrats with bad intentions treating the people that pay their salaries like children.
Well she may be from HK and she gets paid by HK government but we all know she's a mainland shill and was chosen for that reason. She is 100pc in the pocket of the mainland government
how did she get elected?
The head of Hong Kong is not elected by popular suffrage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests#Backgr...
> The leader of Hong Kong, the Chief executive, is currently elected by a 1200-member Election Committee, though Article 45 of the Basic Law states that "the ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief executive by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures."
The election committee is more pro-CCP than the general Hong Kong populace, and the current leader, Carrie Lam, is widely held to be a puppet of Beijing.
> The leader of Hong Kong, the Chief executive, is currently elected by a 1200-member Election Committee, though Article 45 of the Basic Law states that "the ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief executive by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures."
The election committee is more pro-CCP than the general Hong Kong populace, and the current leader, Carrie Lam, is widely held to be a puppet of Beijing.
It’s worth taking a moment to reflect that the PM in the UK is also not elected by popular suffrage. The next PM will (literally) be elected by 100,000 members of the Conservative party, not by general election. It’ll be the second time in recent memory this has happened, after Gordon Brown.
But people elect the parliament and the parliament electthe PM, so it's OK, there's a chain of accountability to the populace. In HK, the parliament has only 70 seats of the 1200-member committee, and only 35 of those are geographical constituents representing the people, the rest are "functional" constituencies mostly representing businesses). Laws have to be passed by a majority of the LegCo however, and the Chief Executive can be impeached by a 2/3 majority in the LegCo, so the LegCo is still very important. The main tragedy is that only 50% of the LegCo is elected democratically.
One interesting - and HN-relevant! - point is that the current member of HK's parliament representing 'Information Technology' is one of the leaders of the pro-democracy camp, and there was a semi-viral video this week of him confronting police inside the parliament building. He is one of the few pro-democracy members among the functional constituencies, and as a Hong Kong permanent resident and IT professional, I want to make sure I get the papers sorted to vote for him in the next elections...
third I think as May was also not elected via a general election.
She was confirmed by one tho, so I was gonna let that slide
I'm not certain about her, but I know many of the positions now have to be appointed or approved by the mainland government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_Appointments_System
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_Appointments_System
Hong Kong isn't a democracy, China has the real power. They also control all big media corporations in HK.
short version - she was appointed by Beijing.
longer version - she was elected by an electoral college carefully constructed to be pro-Beijing whilst superficially appearing representative. Votes must be publicly declared beforehand so Beijing can apply pressure.
Every single chief exec election has been a mess democratically speaking with extensive controversies, pressure from Beijing, veiled and not so veiled threats or talk of finding the trouble makers.
longer version - she was elected by an electoral college carefully constructed to be pro-Beijing whilst superficially appearing representative. Votes must be publicly declared beforehand so Beijing can apply pressure.
Every single chief exec election has been a mess democratically speaking with extensive controversies, pressure from Beijing, veiled and not so veiled threats or talk of finding the trouble makers.
[deleted]
it's part of the system, elders always know best even when they clearly don't in many ways. Internet is changing the archaic thinking, but too slowly.
That is good news for the time being. Let’s hope more comes of this sort of action.
I don't think it is. It seems to me to be playing right into the hands of the chinese gov't. "we gave you what you want then you protest some more? Clearly you are liars and deceivers".
Then more violence by the police, completely justified this time because protesters must be just troublemakers.
It seems a very risky strategy. I would advise against it, or at least think very carefully, but what do I know.
Then more violence by the police, completely justified this time because protesters must be just troublemakers.
It seems a very risky strategy. I would advise against it, or at least think very carefully, but what do I know.
You are absolutely right. This happens over and over in history and people never learn (or intentionally don't want to). Politics is a game and there is a thing called overreach. Now is the time to consolidate on the gains, not to do something obviously impossible and way outside the procedural norm like removing Carrie Lam from office by street demand. Fight it out in future elections. At least there are real seats in the HK LegCo.
The protesters get what they want: this is the Chinese government's evil plan.
The protesters couldn't get what they want: this is the Chinese government's evil plan.
Next time please just say that the Chinese government is evil, save all the typing.
Next time please just say that the Chinese government is evil, save all the typing.
The bill is only suspended indefinitely, not withdrawn. The protesters don't have what they want yet.
It would not surprise me if the suspension were quietly lifted in the future when the world has moved on from the protests.
It would not surprise me if the suspension were quietly lifted in the future when the world has moved on from the protests.
Yes, they still need to push further if they want to make sure the bill never get passed.
> suspension were quietly lifted in the future when the world has moved on from the protests
Very unlikely to happen in the social media era. Even in mainland China, where most of the Westerners fantasize about being a 1984-like society, someone on social media can always dig eye-catching new bills/laws/regulations out and raise some attention on Weibo/various online forums.
Out of all the 7.4 million people in HK, it only takes one guy to discover the attempt and post it online (even on HN), and the West will be all over it.
> suspension were quietly lifted in the future when the world has moved on from the protests
Very unlikely to happen in the social media era. Even in mainland China, where most of the Westerners fantasize about being a 1984-like society, someone on social media can always dig eye-catching new bills/laws/regulations out and raise some attention on Weibo/various online forums.
Out of all the 7.4 million people in HK, it only takes one guy to discover the attempt and post it online (even on HN), and the West will be all over it.
> The protesters get what they want: this is the Chinese government's evil plan
The protesters didn't get what they want hence are considering further protests. Whether they are wise or not was my point.
There's no absolute but...
Imprisoning over a million Uighurs for their religion, and disappearing people for their political beliefs is evil, so yes, the chinese gov't is evil in that sense.
Let's look at your prior history:
"Also, the UK is extremely famous for intentionally or unintentionally leaving a mess when it leaves..."
"Little did I know about all the ignorant and arrogant comments I was about to see. The West needs a new enemy"
"The average westerners only want to accuse China so they can feel good about themselves for a while"
Anything to declare?
The protesters didn't get what they want hence are considering further protests. Whether they are wise or not was my point.
There's no absolute but...
Imprisoning over a million Uighurs for their religion, and disappearing people for their political beliefs is evil, so yes, the chinese gov't is evil in that sense.
Let's look at your prior history:
"Also, the UK is extremely famous for intentionally or unintentionally leaving a mess when it leaves..."
"Little did I know about all the ignorant and arrogant comments I was about to see. The West needs a new enemy"
"The average westerners only want to accuse China so they can feel good about themselves for a while"
Anything to declare?
This comment broke the site guidelines badly. Please see my reply to you downthread, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20195638, and please don't do this again.
> Imprisoning over a million Uighurs
Have you tried to image what kind of resource does it need to do this? How many prisons and guards are needed? How many hospitals, power stations and other related facilities are required to support this? Where are the satellite images?
If we are arresting them for their Islamic religion, how come I still have a large amount of Hui friends hanging out with me just as usual? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people
Trusting the Western media unconditionally without thinking about how ridiculous the news are, truly ignorant and arrogant. Surely your media will never lie or leaving important facts out, like the terrorist attacks happened in China. But I am sure your media has already painted them as some kind of freedom fighters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack
Have you tried to image what kind of resource does it need to do this? How many prisons and guards are needed? How many hospitals, power stations and other related facilities are required to support this? Where are the satellite images?
If we are arresting them for their Islamic religion, how come I still have a large amount of Hui friends hanging out with me just as usual? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people
Trusting the Western media unconditionally without thinking about how ridiculous the news are, truly ignorant and arrogant. Surely your media will never lie or leaving important facts out, like the terrorist attacks happened in China. But I am sure your media has already painted them as some kind of freedom fighters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Kunming_attack
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Posting in the flamewar style like this will get you banned on HN. Insinuating astroturfing ("By the way, who do you work for?") is particularly not allowed here—it's pure poison in internet discussions. I've posted about this at great length: https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
Please review the site guidelines and stick to them regardless of how wrong you think someone else is.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: all HN users who have been using this issue to vent aggression and flame enemies ought to read this exchange between a Hong Kong user involved in the protests, and a mainland Chinese user: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20197903. If they can be that civil and respectful, what excuse do the rest of us have for not doing so?
Please review the site guidelines and stick to them regardless of how wrong you think someone else is.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Edit: all HN users who have been using this issue to vent aggression and flame enemies ought to read this exchange between a Hong Kong user involved in the protests, and a mainland Chinese user: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20197903. If they can be that civil and respectful, what excuse do the rest of us have for not doing so?
So now I am a wumao right? If someone disagrees with the Western media, just say he/she is a wumao and you automatically win, how convenient.
The image in your link makes me laugh. I can do the same, just get an image of an Amazon fulfillment center and say it is holding thousands of supporters of Edward Snowden against their will.
> I dunno, you tell me.
Because we don't arrest people for their religions.
It's not just 31 people btw. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_rio...
If you don't think your media could lie, there is nothing I can do.
The image in your link makes me laugh. I can do the same, just get an image of an Amazon fulfillment center and say it is holding thousands of supporters of Edward Snowden against their will.
> I dunno, you tell me.
Because we don't arrest people for their religions.
It's not just 31 people btw. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2009_%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_rio...
If you don't think your media could lie, there is nothing I can do.
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I don't mean to pick on you personally at all, but I have to reply to you a third time in this thread.
This comment not only broke the site guidelines terribly, it became aggressive enough to count as harrassment. You simply can't bully another user like that on HN. We ban people for that.
Let's look at the larger picture for a minute. Geopolitics between China and the West have taken a polarizing turn. Hacker News' audience is highly international but majority Western, so most users here identify with one side of the story. That's natural, but it means that people representing the other side are in a minority position. No matter how wrong you think their position is, you and other HN users need to treat the people you're arguing with respectfully. Otherwise we get a mob dynamic, which is vastly more destructive to HN than comments being wrong about China—and unfortunately there has been a lot of it lately. HN users who have a Chinese background, or have lived in China and so on, have a right to present their side of the story without being accused of being spies or foreign agents and run out of town. The site guidelines ask you to "assume good faith" for good reason: when people don't, it turns a functioning community into a tire fire.
Our experience with the issue of astroturfing is that internet users are all too eager to imagine it about commenters they just happen to disagree with. Having imagined it they then feel entitled to sling the accusation to twist the knife a bit further in an argument. That's not ok. If you're genuinely concerned about abuse, email [email protected] so we can look into it. But it's not ok to casually insinuate it in the threads: most of the time there's no evidence for it, and the accusation is a powerful poison in its own right.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the spirit of this site when posting here, we'd be grateful.
This comment not only broke the site guidelines terribly, it became aggressive enough to count as harrassment. You simply can't bully another user like that on HN. We ban people for that.
Let's look at the larger picture for a minute. Geopolitics between China and the West have taken a polarizing turn. Hacker News' audience is highly international but majority Western, so most users here identify with one side of the story. That's natural, but it means that people representing the other side are in a minority position. No matter how wrong you think their position is, you and other HN users need to treat the people you're arguing with respectfully. Otherwise we get a mob dynamic, which is vastly more destructive to HN than comments being wrong about China—and unfortunately there has been a lot of it lately. HN users who have a Chinese background, or have lived in China and so on, have a right to present their side of the story without being accused of being spies or foreign agents and run out of town. The site guidelines ask you to "assume good faith" for good reason: when people don't, it turns a functioning community into a tire fire.
Our experience with the issue of astroturfing is that internet users are all too eager to imagine it about commenters they just happen to disagree with. Having imagined it they then feel entitled to sling the accusation to twist the knife a bit further in an argument. That's not ok. If you're genuinely concerned about abuse, email [email protected] so we can look into it. But it's not ok to casually insinuate it in the threads: most of the time there's no evidence for it, and the accusation is a powerful poison in its own right.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the spirit of this site when posting here, we'd be grateful.
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I'm impressed, this is much more responsive than how Macron has handled the gilets jaunes.
One can't really compare a democratically elected president bound by rule of law and various balances to a totalitarian puppet.
Exactly my point, we usually expect democratically elected leaders to be more responsive to protests than autocrats.
That should make it more impressive.
There's no law preventing him from resigning.
A notice of no objection for Sunday’s march has been issued.¹
1. https://www.police.gov.hk/info/doc/nono/POERN19007953E.pdf
1. https://www.police.gov.hk/info/doc/nono/POERN19007953E.pdf
back down until they find a sneaky way to reintroduce it. IMO, case closed. Just a matter of time
Political submissions on HN make me want to reinstall the tagger extension so known trolls or obvious shills can be tracked.
As far as i understand the bill doesn't apply to those with political or religious offense. what are these people protest against?
Give an inch and they'll take a mile. The slippery slope is a very valid concern with one of the most powerful potential adversaries actively wanting to integrate you and dismantle your system of government.
From their perspective it's not hard to imagine China trumping up charges (or getting one of the other listed nations to do it) to get their hands on someone they want. Likewise, having the law on the books at all makes it a (comparatively) very small step to simply add more things to the list of acceptable extradition reasons.
China's domestic actions have not given HKers much reason to trust them, and they know that they won't have any chance of clawing back any measure of sovereignty in their system that they give up now.
From their perspective it's not hard to imagine China trumping up charges (or getting one of the other listed nations to do it) to get their hands on someone they want. Likewise, having the law on the books at all makes it a (comparatively) very small step to simply add more things to the list of acceptable extradition reasons.
China's domestic actions have not given HKers much reason to trust them, and they know that they won't have any chance of clawing back any measure of sovereignty in their system that they give up now.
China has a lot of vague laws and a history of making up accusations to fit the occasion, with no way for HK judges to examine evidence, and trial with presumption of guilt. This excellent comment on reddit by IosueYu answers the question better than I ever could: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/bvux0z/hong_kong_...
These types of protests are largely encouraged by the West to deepen division within it's enemies, same as with sunni/shiites in the middle east, or gop/democrats by the Russians. You can tell because the West didn't give a single shit when hk wasn't democratically ruled by the Brits, but now democracy there is headline propaganda.
The PRC didn't exactly cooperate when the UK wanted to introduce democratic measures in HK well before the handover. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_development_in_Hong...
The UK only tried to introduce it after they knew they couldn’t hold on to Hong Kong anymore. So they did it out of spite.
But the UK did try to convince Portugal not to offer the people of Macau citizenship, because they didn’t want to do the same for the people of Hong Kong.
But the UK did try to convince Portugal not to offer the people of Macau citizenship, because they didn’t want to do the same for the people of Hong Kong.
This is very concerning. It feels like Hong Kong is doomed to lose more and more of its independence, and freedom of speech, and freedom of press, as the years go on.
I have a lot of friends and family there, and as much as I love China and can understand their politics due to the size of their country, I do not wish Hong Kong citizens to lose any of their rights.