Ask HN: Unemployed. What on earth should I do with my life?
62 comments
The skill of getting a job is completely different than your profession skills. First of if you are not getting agents calling you and getting replies on applications in the most abundant industry that software development is you are doing something very wrong. I know of people with literature degree that learnt coding in a few months by themselves and landed a developer job... Things to consider:
1) your CV and online profile is bad - keep it one 1-2 pages, keep it concise, only include previous RELEVANT job experience and skills gained from it, also include any accomplishments on the roles. Include education and section with Skills and Personal Projects. Don't bother adding unnecessary fluff like personal statement or hobbies. Put a good profile on LinkedIn with same sections and accept all agents invitations
2) You live in a small town if so either move to a big one or apply for remote jobs in bigger cities around Europe/America
3) Your interview/social skills are bad- do mock interviews, read Cracking the Coding Interview, look people in the eyes when interviews and be calm.
4) Your tech skills are rubbish - you don't need to be hackerrank master but you should be able to do some common problems like fibonacci and hashmaps and related again Do more practice and work on personal project like CRUD apps and pick easier language like Python
If you do all of these points there is no way you won't get a job
1) your CV and online profile is bad - keep it one 1-2 pages, keep it concise, only include previous RELEVANT job experience and skills gained from it, also include any accomplishments on the roles. Include education and section with Skills and Personal Projects. Don't bother adding unnecessary fluff like personal statement or hobbies. Put a good profile on LinkedIn with same sections and accept all agents invitations
2) You live in a small town if so either move to a big one or apply for remote jobs in bigger cities around Europe/America
3) Your interview/social skills are bad- do mock interviews, read Cracking the Coding Interview, look people in the eyes when interviews and be calm.
4) Your tech skills are rubbish - you don't need to be hackerrank master but you should be able to do some common problems like fibonacci and hashmaps and related again Do more practice and work on personal project like CRUD apps and pick easier language like Python
If you do all of these points there is no way you won't get a job
Have you ever considered technical writing? If you're a good writer with CS/engineering, you'd have a definite leg up over other applicants (even if you don't have direct tech writing experience). I'm a tech writer (English + CS background) and I love my job. I know quite a few tech writers who dabble in docs-related automation/process improvement projects.
May I ask how you get started with technical writing? I've basically come to the conclusion I don't want to work in academia but have fairly advanced coding and writing skills. It seems like it's possibly a good fit for me but I have no idea how or where to start.
I'd say a first step is to start building a body of writing samples. You can do this in a lot of different ways, but two suggestions are 1. adding or improving documentation for an open source project and 2. writing technical blog posts/articles/how-tos on topics that interest you and posting them on a personal website. Starting to build this body of work can also help you discern whether you even like technical writing. Then, I'd say the next step is to just start applying to technical writing jobs. (Maybe contract ones, if you'd like to just try it out first.) Since you have coding experience, I'd suggest targeting tech writing jobs that require proficiency with languages you're familiar with or deal with technologies in domains you're interested/have experience in.
> May I ask how you get started with technical writing?
The easiest way is to apply to huge companies like Amazon, Apple, Google, or Microsoft. These companies may have ridiculous expectations from software engineers, but the tech writing screening process is much easier.
The easiest way is to apply to huge companies like Amazon, Apple, Google, or Microsoft. These companies may have ridiculous expectations from software engineers, but the tech writing screening process is much easier.
> May I ask how you get started with technical writing?
Refer to this post [1][2][3] featured in Hacker News a few days ago.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22652241
[2] https://developers.google.com/tech-writing
[3] https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?category=DATA_CENTE...
Refer to this post [1][2][3] featured in Hacker News a few days ago.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22652241
[2] https://developers.google.com/tech-writing
[3] https://careers.google.com/jobs/results/?category=DATA_CENTE...
Yes. With HN's character limit, I didn't have space to mention everything. In addition to the steps I mentioned above, lately I've been applying to positions in technical writing and customer success/support engineering. I think you're right that TW could be a good fit for me.
Also technical translations. There are probably lots of opportunities for translating English documentation to Mandarin right now.
OP wrote that "Translator positions ask for native Mandarin and good English, not the other way around." Do you have specific opportunities in mind where that wouldn't be the case?
I don't know about Mandarin, but I know that this is also true of Japanese translation, but not Japanese technical translation. There is a fair amount of work for technical people who are native English speakers because the work is from Japanese to English. I'd be surprised if there wasn't contract work for translating documents for Chinese companies.
I would guess that there are translation agencies in China that specifically hire native English speakers. Maybe ask around in online expat communities?
Dnh44 and mikechar, thank you both for responding. I've looked for Chinese->English contract positions and found little, but Dnh44's suggestion prompted me to think perhaps I hadn't looked in the right places. I'll reach out to my connections in China scholarship one more time.
Daaamn. Whenever I see posts like this - people complaining that they can't get employed and I read the list of their skills, I get hit with anxiety and panic.
If people with good skills can't get a job, what am I suppose to do when I lose mine? I also don't understand how do freelancers stay calm, don't they basically have to be in a job, client-seeking mode all the time?
If people with good skills can't get a job, what am I suppose to do when I lose mine? I also don't understand how do freelancers stay calm, don't they basically have to be in a job, client-seeking mode all the time?
iLemming, thanks for responding. Though I'm struggling to keep my head above water, I want to use my next few breaths to encourage you, because I myself have felt that I lacked skills compared to others.
Having looked through your post history, you are a much more advanced Emacs user than I am. My hundred-plus custom functions, arranged in fuzzy utility groups under a master keymap, pale in comparison to your released, GitHubbed, other-people-usable software. Understanding and embracing Emacs requires grit. I hope to reach your level by, perhaps, the end of this year. Please put your shoulders back and hold your head up when you read this -- and when you next hack Emacs.
If you want to talk further, I'm available at [email protected].
Having looked through your post history, you are a much more advanced Emacs user than I am. My hundred-plus custom functions, arranged in fuzzy utility groups under a master keymap, pale in comparison to your released, GitHubbed, other-people-usable software. Understanding and embracing Emacs requires grit. I hope to reach your level by, perhaps, the end of this year. Please put your shoulders back and hold your head up when you read this -- and when you next hack Emacs.
If you want to talk further, I'm available at [email protected].
Well, I learned a couple of things about Emacs. I am known as "M-x Tips" on Twitter¹. But Emacs skills are not "hireable", interviewers rarely (if ever) care about the choice of your favorite IDE.
Sadly, industry's established hiring practices are inadequate - being a skilled interviewee (most of the time) has very little to do with someone's ability to solve real problems on the field.
It's like if you are an outstanding chef, but to get a job you have to be able to perform an elaborate dance. And if you can't dance at all, then even your Michelin stars won't help.
---
¹ Not a shameless plug, since I hope you may see some helpful tips: https://twitter.com/ilemming
Sadly, industry's established hiring practices are inadequate - being a skilled interviewee (most of the time) has very little to do with someone's ability to solve real problems on the field.
It's like if you are an outstanding chef, but to get a job you have to be able to perform an elaborate dance. And if you can't dance at all, then even your Michelin stars won't help.
---
¹ Not a shameless plug, since I hope you may see some helpful tips: https://twitter.com/ilemming
Damn it. Like I knew it would happen. My company laid off a bunch of people today. Including me.
> I also don't understand how do freelancers stay calm, don't they basically have to be in a job, client-seeking mode all the time?
It becomes the new normal so it's no longer anxiety inducing. You also get better at it, like any other thing you repeatedly do. That said, not everyone succeeds, just like every other activity. Ultimately it's just a lifestyle choice.
It becomes the new normal so it's no longer anxiety inducing. You also get better at it, like any other thing you repeatedly do. That said, not everyone succeeds, just like every other activity. Ultimately it's just a lifestyle choice.
> I also don't understand how do freelancers stay calm, don't they basically have to be in a job, client-seeking mode all the time?
I am pretty sure that most of them are prudent enough to plan for this. Employees might not need to think for these kind of situations but freelancers frequently do.
I am pretty sure that most of them are prudent enough to plan for this. Employees might not need to think for these kind of situations but freelancers frequently do.
yes, that is why the majority don't want to do it
Something to consider is taking the time and learning algorithms and data structures and applying to faang for software engineering job. They still recruit and at least one do it fully remote in this situation.
It maybe risky though because preparations can take significant amount of time depending on your current level of knowledge and it may not pay off immediately (they may not come with an offer first time you apply). The upside is those companies will likely survive the crisis and if you are well prepared you should be able to get in. Also if you apply to couple of those companies around the same time it's less likely you won't get a job because of some random factors and it more depends on how well you prepare.
Take care.
Sounds like you have some great skills/experience,
I was just looking for a job for a few months. I would recommend first planning:
-when do i run out of money and need to take any job i can get
-how long am i willing to continue to train my skills/apply to jobs before i want to give up and take any job? (make sure to take advantage of having the ability to keep learning/improving your skills while you are not working)
-what is the minimum amount of money you need to take a job? any other deal breakers? sounds like emacs might be one for you. I would apply to every emacs job in your country/region (at least 25 resume submissions a week)
I dont know how to answer "what is the right job for you". If you want to be an automation-engineer (i dont really know what that is exactly), i would recommend talking to some automation-engineers for their thoughts on your experience/what you need to do to make yourself more hire-able/cold-emailing people on linkedin works sometimes and could lead to referrals.
-reverse recruiting: messaging people on linkedin asking to talk about getting referred
General advice
If we assume 1/100 resumes get seen by a human in a company recruiting department, and youve gotten 10 interviews/a few hundred resume submissions. you have an unusually high resume response rate. Keep applying! Try not get frustrated
-spend 30 min/hr a day practicing leetcode/reading cracking the coding interview to improve algo skills as a lot of companies ask these things
-keep building projects and stuffing it in your github and try make commits to open source projects (documentation fixes is better than no commits)
I was just looking for a job for a few months. I would recommend first planning:
-when do i run out of money and need to take any job i can get
-how long am i willing to continue to train my skills/apply to jobs before i want to give up and take any job? (make sure to take advantage of having the ability to keep learning/improving your skills while you are not working)
-what is the minimum amount of money you need to take a job? any other deal breakers? sounds like emacs might be one for you. I would apply to every emacs job in your country/region (at least 25 resume submissions a week)
I dont know how to answer "what is the right job for you". If you want to be an automation-engineer (i dont really know what that is exactly), i would recommend talking to some automation-engineers for their thoughts on your experience/what you need to do to make yourself more hire-able/cold-emailing people on linkedin works sometimes and could lead to referrals.
-reverse recruiting: messaging people on linkedin asking to talk about getting referred
General advice
If we assume 1/100 resumes get seen by a human in a company recruiting department, and youve gotten 10 interviews/a few hundred resume submissions. you have an unusually high resume response rate. Keep applying! Try not get frustrated
-spend 30 min/hr a day practicing leetcode/reading cracking the coding interview to improve algo skills as a lot of companies ask these things
-keep building projects and stuffing it in your github and try make commits to open source projects (documentation fixes is better than no commits)
Question- are you just worried about not having a job or are you at a point where money is tight. If it’s the former I suggest taking a deep breath and reminding yourself that things will get better. If you need money now I would bet there is a less than ideal job available now. From the small amount of text you have written I can deduce you seem motivated and at intelligent. I have been in the position to hire people in several previous roles. One red flag I always shied away from is desperation. It’s not an automatic no, but I wonder what is going on if someone is recently out of work and upset about not having the next gig lined up. Again you have limited space to plead your case so if I misread the situation then please accept my apology. My perspective on things is that yep this sucks and I will tighten up my belt but it’s not Armageddon just yet. If we all look for (even virtual) community things will work out.
Thanks, S_A_P, for responding. I do still have some money left, but the coronavirus lockdown and widespread talk of hiring freezes have me a little on edge.
I would not say I am desperate. But, as my moniker suggests, I am confused -- mainly about how to find opportunities to which I am suited (even if they're not my personal ideal.) Sometimes I wish I had left Mandarin aside as a curiosity, and gone all-in on computers. Other times I wish the opposite. Ah, well.
I would not say I am desperate. But, as my moniker suggests, I am confused -- mainly about how to find opportunities to which I am suited (even if they're not my personal ideal.) Sometimes I wish I had left Mandarin aside as a curiosity, and gone all-in on computers. Other times I wish the opposite. Ah, well.
Re desperation/difficulty in finding a job - there are people recruiting who don't care, to whom all that matters is the ability and whether you're easy to get along with.
If you get upset about not getting a job there's no need in being even more upset about being upset ;).
IMHO: People go through various things in their lives and troubles are often just temporary and if someone's going through hard time it doesn't have to indicate there's anything wrong with them.
IMHO: People go through various things in their lives and troubles are often just temporary and if someone's going through hard time it doesn't have to indicate there's anything wrong with them.
Horrible timing but best of luck. I know how hard it is, it took me 6 months to get my current job with 3-4 interviews a week and a bunch of nonsense technical exams just to get the interview. At the end of each day applying, calling and interviewing, my head was buzzing from stress burn out. Honestly way too hard of work just to get a job that breaks my back daily for so-so pay. Better off starting my own business with the level of effort required these days just to make someone else rich.
Your ace in the hole is the Mandarin of course, depending how good you actually are with it.
Your ace in the hole is the Mandarin of course, depending how good you actually are with it.
BuckRogers, thanks for your reply. I agree that my Mandarin (which varies from decent to strong, depending on skill area) represents a useful wildcard.
I haven't given up hope that my unusual combination of skills will get me somewhere interesting. I just wish the job market wasn't so painfully inefficient.
Be well.
I haven't given up hope that my unusual combination of skills will get me somewhere interesting. I just wish the job market wasn't so painfully inefficient.
Be well.
You are absolutely right! Just wasting people's time. Bunch of a*! I feel sorry for the OP, he sounds legit
Yeah I wish there was a filter for employers that actually need someone. Not just fishing the market for some sort of golden child that holds a PHD in compsci, works over 40 hours a week and will take little pay.
I'd accept a lot of situations if there were just a filter for employers that respect the 40 hour workweek. That alone is a major benefit, but no one wants to give it. These employers all deserve unions at this point.
I'd accept a lot of situations if there were just a filter for employers that respect the 40 hour workweek. That alone is a major benefit, but no one wants to give it. These employers all deserve unions at this point.
Heldrida, thanks for responding. I appreciate your sympathy. I feel legit, and I have a track record -- I just don't know how to get slotted into the right place.
Your comment here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22412316) suggests that you also are going through tech interviews. If you ever need a sounding board, try me at [email protected].
Your comment here (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22412316) suggests that you also are going through tech interviews. If you ever need a sounding board, try me at [email protected].
I consistently make others laugh: in conversation, on stage, and through writing.
Well, you have a captive audience and probably some unique perspective to share, so launch your YouTube channel.
Well, you have a captive audience and probably some unique perspective to share, so launch your YouTube channel.
Thanks for responding. You are far from the first to suggest I launch a podcast or vlog. It's time for me to try even those tactics that are unusual and unlikely. I'll make some recordings in the next week, and see what sticks.
Please post an update when you do!
I tend to see this type of issue with people who are not focused on any one particular thing. It’s almost like a fear of commitment. You are 80% of the way to being a developer. Take the time to understand algorithms and data structures. Commit to it. On the other side of that commitment is the confidence to apply for the types of jobs that you want, not just the ones that appear before you.
This isn’t a “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” pep talk. This is an appeal to you to achieve your potential.
This isn’t a “pull yourself up by the bootstraps” pep talk. This is an appeal to you to achieve your potential.
Volunteering locally through a charity to put food on table while helping others against the effects of this pandemic? Not necessarily as a frontman, just call them and ask for what they need, with your skills. You would make friends for sure, and a network to rely upon in a few months, when the tsunami abates and life restarts, in one way or another.
Is there anyone you worked with before who is now employed doing something you’d like to do? Have you tried asking them for a referral? Referrals from former coworkers are vastly more important than your resume.
Djannzjkzxn, thanks for responding. You speak the truth: referrals are the top way to find work.
To your suggestion: nearly all my coworkers from all my former jobs are academics, with permanent positions at their home institutions. That hasn't stopped me from reaching out, of course, but by this point I've worked my network as much as I know how to do, and while it's gotten me a bit of interest, it hasn't gotten me anywhere substantial.
I do appreciate your mentioning this angle. I'll have another look through my alumni directory, LinkedIn, etc. and see if I've missed anyone.
To your suggestion: nearly all my coworkers from all my former jobs are academics, with permanent positions at their home institutions. That hasn't stopped me from reaching out, of course, but by this point I've worked my network as much as I know how to do, and while it's gotten me a bit of interest, it hasn't gotten me anywhere substantial.
I do appreciate your mentioning this angle. I'll have another look through my alumni directory, LinkedIn, etc. and see if I've missed anyone.
When I have reached out to my network I have good luck not asking them if ithey need help, but if they know anyone who needs help--makes the ask easier too. And the more specific the help you can offer the better.
Automation engineer > software engineer > job
Also suggest joining local and tech focused slacks, as it seems a lot of jobs come across those nowadays.
Automation engineer > software engineer > job
Also suggest joining local and tech focused slacks, as it seems a lot of jobs come across those nowadays.
Sorry to hear about all this. Could you please post your resume online and provide a link to it so we can all view rather than emailing you? Thanks.
I see how email creates a barrier. Thanks for the tip. I'll post it ASAP. In the meantime, I'll send email to the address in your profile.
Sent you an email about potential job at my company. Not sure if it goes to spam, so posting here
You might like being a parent lawyer from the sound of it. It’s a great job. The hours aren’t long, pay is good. Deadlines are predictable and you often work with interesting technology and people.
Digitaltrees, thanks for responding. I presume you mean "patent lawyer." One or two acquaintances have suggested I go to law school. I can see how I might come to enjoy law, but if I am going to pursue graduate education, I think computers would be a better fit overall.
That said, I'll at least look into the possibility, and ask my lawyer friends to give me an honest perspective on what law school is like. Thanks again.
That said, I'll at least look into the possibility, and ask my lawyer friends to give me an honest perspective on what law school is like. Thanks again.
Amazon, instacart are hiring
Fidla, thanks for the tip. I'll check the open roles at those locations.
My previous experiences with the Amazon hiring pipeline suggest that (some of) the people responsible for the process do not care much about candidate experience. For example, a week after applying to be a Chinese-language app tester, upon checking the Amazon Jobs website I discovered that the job posting had silently been converted to a German position. Needless to say, I was not qualified for that job, and anyone viewing my resume would have been nonplussed.
My previous experiences with the Amazon hiring pipeline suggest that (some of) the people responsible for the process do not care much about candidate experience. For example, a week after applying to be a Chinese-language app tester, upon checking the Amazon Jobs website I discovered that the job posting had silently been converted to a German position. Needless to say, I was not qualified for that job, and anyone viewing my resume would have been nonplussed.
Are you in the US?
Pragmatic, thanks for responding. For you, and anyone else who wants to know: I'm currently located in the Greater Los Angeles area, California, USA.
I'm willing to consider relocation to many parts of the US.
I'm willing to consider relocation to many parts of the US.
Where?
Thanks for responding, anotheryou. I'm currently located in Greater Los Angeles, Southern California, USA. I'm willing to consider relocation to most places in the US.
Don't mess around in the US for peanuts if you can speak/read/write Mandarin and English. Head to Shenzhen without delay. If you happen to be white, then you're worth your weight in gold. If you can do technical things, then you're a magician too. Furthermore, you could even sell yourself as a manual proofreader/editor/translator as well.
Relocate your abilities where they can be best utilized and compensated where things are designed, engineered and/or manufactured.
Relocate your abilities where they can be best utilized and compensated where things are designed, engineered and/or manufactured.
Come and help us source centrifugal compressors from Chinese factories on openvent.org ($50 ventilator project. Yes.). Need to call up factories and ask about their production capabilities and to send out samples. Very interesting group of people have gathered around the project and you will get some good contacts.
Davidzweig, thanks for posting. I'll take a look at your initiative. I'm already involved in one COVID-related volunteer effort, but may be able to spare some time.
Wow. Thanks. I never even thought of moving to Shenzhen, but that's a smart idea. I wonder whether I have any 1st- or 2nd-degree contacts over there who could help me get set up.
Not to be a downer, this is great advice but sadly bad timing, with the virus turning many countries isolationist (I think China is not allowing foreigners in, right now), and the next few months' economic outlook will be uncertain, in China as well: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-26/the-secon...
But well, when the world returns to the way it was, going to China is a great idea.
But well, when the world returns to the way it was, going to China is a great idea.
You are absolutely correct that "Red Star Over CC" is a medium-term plan, not a short-term one. Thanks for chiming in.
How do you get a working visa for China?
I've never worked in China but I spent years wanting to work in Southeast Asia and being put off by visa requirements. Eventually I learned that the way to do it is come over on a regular business visa you just get like a tourist visa, then find someone to hire you and then the employer sorts out the visa. If you don't find a job before the business visa runs out, just do a visa run to Hong Kong.
How would hiring happen these days with COVID-19 out in the wild?
It’s too risky to meet in person. You cannot shake hands anymore. The virus is airborne, and it lingers in the air for 3 hours, so you can easily get it or transmit it, by being in the same room as the interviewer.
Maybe we now switch to remote FaceTime interviews?
It’s too risky to meet in person. You cannot shake hands anymore. The virus is airborne, and it lingers in the air for 3 hours, so you can easily get it or transmit it, by being in the same room as the interviewer.
Maybe we now switch to remote FaceTime interviews?
Study option trading, lurk on r/wallstreetbets and make tendies $$$
Skills/talents:
I'm much more interested in "how do I get $THING working enough to accomplish important tasks?" than "how do I optimize $THING performance?" My last job was in a CS research lab; I did no computer science but plenty of automation and process-improvement. I've written & implemented a text adventure. Emacs diehard. BA Linguistics (5 years analyzing patterns in syntax, semantics.)
Outside computering, I'm a keen writer: between my journal and my website, I produce >100,000 words a year. I consistently make others laugh: in conversation, on stage, and through writing. I've been a Chinese translator and have decent spoken Mandarin.
I've already:
Applied to hundreds of jobs (interviewed for perhaps ten). Translator positions ask for native Mandarin and good English, not the other way around. Engineer roles select for those who can whip out perfect algo/DS on command (I understand the need for expertise, but my IRL experience is that not having the perfect construct memorized is never the bottleneck to success.) I've had "data analyst" interviews, but no offers, and no clinical research analyst callbacks despite having done that job.
Sent loads of cold emails. Volunteered with techy/Chinesey nonprofits/meetups/interest groups. This has brought friends, satisfaction, and board membership, but not career advancement -- and COVID-19 has frozen all events.
I'm now: Applying to automation-engineer jobs (thanks, HN "Who's Hiring.") Building server development skills: learning Flask, EC2. Looking at videogame writer jobs. Seeking out startups/small firms that might react positively to who I am/what I do. Considering grad school.
My resume and I are at [email protected]. Thank you for reading. Have a pleasant day. CC