UK supermarket Tesco sets 300% sales target for plant-based alternatives to meat(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
UK supermarket Tesco sets 300% sales target for plant-based alternatives to meat
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/29/tesco-sets-300-per-cent-sales-target-for-plant-based-alternatives-to-meat
104 comments
Well put. More than enough clean protein is easily achievable by adding chickpeas, lentils, beans (there are so many beans also soy/tofu) as well as certain greens like spinach and wholegrains, too.
However these plant based alternatives are getting pretty damn good for when you want some comfort food or a classic bbq.
However these plant based alternatives are getting pretty damn good for when you want some comfort food or a classic bbq.
I recently switched to no meat lunch's. I've been using beans as a meat replacement for a lot of things. What I've found so surprising is how many variety's of beans there are. There's well over a dozen at just my local store. Before I did it I kinda assumed there was just like soy beans, black beans, maybe a few more.
This seems to be a particular issue that people have in -cough cough- some parts of the world where a meal without meat is inconceivable. This is certainly not the case in most of the world, not even most of the Western world. For example, I'm Greek and our local cuisine is about 80% plant-based, although of course supplemented with generous amounts of cheese and fish. We also don't tend to eat so much beef but prefer pork or sheep's meat instead and even our dairy products are mostly made with sheep and goat's milk.
Check out the joy a vegan finds in realising how many naturaly vegan dishes (i.e. dishes traditionally made without any animal products) can be found in Greek cuisine:
https://www.thenomadicvegan.com/the-nomadic-vegans-guide-to-...
I’ve got great news: Greece is full of delicious vegan food! You will find a huge selection of naturally vegan dishes in traditional Greek cuisine.
This can be partly attributed to the nature of Mediterranean cuisine in general, which generally emphasizes fresh fruits and vegetables and uses meat only sparingly.
In the case of Greece, though, there is an additional reason for all the veggie-friendly dishes: religion. The calendar of the Greek Orthodox Church contains more than 180 fasting days, including every Wednesday and Friday as well as longer periods lasting several weeks, like the weeks leading up to Christmas and Easter. And the diet followed on fasting days is, as it turns out, not far from a vegan diet.
So I guess it's revelatory for some people to realise that they "flavour almost every meat dish with lots of vegetable products and spices", but in much of the world that sounds like a really odd thing to say. Because, I mean, duh?
Edit: and if I sound a bit dismissive of your comment, I apologise but I'm a bit fed up with hearing how "we" should stop eating so much meat and "we" should adopt a plant-based diet, when that is exactly what I've had for all of my life, a plant-based diet. It seems to me that, as usual, some countries lead the trend for industrial farming and it's the populations of those countries that should change their ways. For myself, I'm not going to give up the meat I eat once or twice a week because some people across half a continent or half a world can't sit down to eat unless they're served a burger or a steak. You're the ones who have caused the mess we're in. You fix it. You know very well who you are.
Check out the joy a vegan finds in realising how many naturaly vegan dishes (i.e. dishes traditionally made without any animal products) can be found in Greek cuisine:
https://www.thenomadicvegan.com/the-nomadic-vegans-guide-to-...
I’ve got great news: Greece is full of delicious vegan food! You will find a huge selection of naturally vegan dishes in traditional Greek cuisine.
This can be partly attributed to the nature of Mediterranean cuisine in general, which generally emphasizes fresh fruits and vegetables and uses meat only sparingly.
In the case of Greece, though, there is an additional reason for all the veggie-friendly dishes: religion. The calendar of the Greek Orthodox Church contains more than 180 fasting days, including every Wednesday and Friday as well as longer periods lasting several weeks, like the weeks leading up to Christmas and Easter. And the diet followed on fasting days is, as it turns out, not far from a vegan diet.
So I guess it's revelatory for some people to realise that they "flavour almost every meat dish with lots of vegetable products and spices", but in much of the world that sounds like a really odd thing to say. Because, I mean, duh?
Edit: and if I sound a bit dismissive of your comment, I apologise but I'm a bit fed up with hearing how "we" should stop eating so much meat and "we" should adopt a plant-based diet, when that is exactly what I've had for all of my life, a plant-based diet. It seems to me that, as usual, some countries lead the trend for industrial farming and it's the populations of those countries that should change their ways. For myself, I'm not going to give up the meat I eat once or twice a week because some people across half a continent or half a world can't sit down to eat unless they're served a burger or a steak. You're the ones who have caused the mess we're in. You fix it. You know very well who you are.
> For myself, I'm not going to give up the meat I eat once or twice a week because some people across half a continent or half a world can't sit down to eat unless they're served a burger or a steak.
Hmm, meat consumption in Greece has went from 21kg to 72kg per person per year in the last 50 years. The USA is at 124kg, UK is 80kg, France is at 83kg and Spain is at 100kg. That's not a huge difference, and poorer countries want to catch up as they get richer:
https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production
Hmm, meat consumption in Greece has went from 21kg to 72kg per person per year in the last 50 years. The USA is at 124kg, UK is 80kg, France is at 83kg and Spain is at 100kg. That's not a huge difference, and poorer countries want to catch up as they get richer:
https://ourworldindata.org/meat-production
True, meat consumption in Greece has increased in recent years (not least because of the incursion of USA-style fast food like McDonalds) however "As a global average, per capita meat consumption has increased approximately 20 kilograms since 1961" (from your link) so per capita meat consumption has increased in Greece because it has increased everywhere and Greece is still one of the least meat-consuming countries. Also, most meat production in Greece is sheep or goat and pigmeat (data from your link) and not the much more environmentally harmful beef production.
Also- Greece went from being one of the poorer European countries to being a relatively well-off country in those 50 years.
> Also- Greece went from being one of the poorer European countries to being a relatively well-off country in those 50 years.
The problem is, this is a global trend: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47057341
Who are we to tell e.g. India and China (about 3 billion people in total) to eat less meat as they grow richer?
The problem is, this is a global trend: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-47057341
Who are we to tell e.g. India and China (about 3 billion people in total) to eat less meat as they grow richer?
Well, I wouldn't. But eating more meat doesn't have to mean intensive farming.
Or perhaps it's more complex than what it looks and the reason why Greeks, Indians, Chinese, etc eat more meat as they become more affluent is because their affluence attracts mass industries like industrial farming. In which case it's not a genuine consumer demand to eat more meat but just an effect of there being more of it available and at a cheap price.
Or perhaps it's more complex than what it looks and the reason why Greeks, Indians, Chinese, etc eat more meat as they become more affluent is because their affluence attracts mass industries like industrial farming. In which case it's not a genuine consumer demand to eat more meat but just an effect of there being more of it available and at a cheap price.
Agree with almost all of this - if you buy well-grown fresh vegetables, they're delicious all by themselves if you take time to learn how to cook them - but the same is true of something like chicken. If you get chicken where the chickens are well cared-for, well-fed and not pumped full of hormones it does actually taste delicious by itself.
It reminds me of a food eureka moment a couple of decades ago when I was round for dinner with the family a friend who's a farmer. They served boiled potatoes that they'd dug up earlier that day and I suddenly remembered that potatoes could actually taste of something other than the oil / butter / salt that you cook them in or flavour them with.
Edit: I presume part of the reason for "plant-based alternatives to meat" is that it's much more difficult to commoditise simple vegetables. I can think of plenty of plant-based alternatives to meat and they're... plants. Potatoes, carrots, aubergines, courgettes, cavolo nero, broccoli...
It reminds me of a food eureka moment a couple of decades ago when I was round for dinner with the family a friend who's a farmer. They served boiled potatoes that they'd dug up earlier that day and I suddenly remembered that potatoes could actually taste of something other than the oil / butter / salt that you cook them in or flavour them with.
Edit: I presume part of the reason for "plant-based alternatives to meat" is that it's much more difficult to commoditise simple vegetables. I can think of plenty of plant-based alternatives to meat and they're... plants. Potatoes, carrots, aubergines, courgettes, cavolo nero, broccoli...
> If you get chicken where the chickens are well cared-for, well-fed and not pumped full of hormones it does actually taste delicious by itself.
Yes, I was more thinking about when people get chicken nuggets or fast food burgers. The meat is probably only adding some texture and most of the taste is from the spices, so why does it need to have meat?
I feel people demand meat on principle instead of really thinking about why they're eating something. Most of the time they're not eating meat for health reasons either, despite the usual arguments coming up like B12 and protein that can't be backed up.
Yes, I was more thinking about when people get chicken nuggets or fast food burgers. The meat is probably only adding some texture and most of the taste is from the spices, so why does it need to have meat?
I feel people demand meat on principle instead of really thinking about why they're eating something. Most of the time they're not eating meat for health reasons either, despite the usual arguments coming up like B12 and protein that can't be backed up.
Agreed.
However, I do see a place for meat substitutes as an option for "veggie curious" consumers who want to move away from meat consumption. If you're used to grilling hamburgers with the family every Saturday afternoon, meat substitutes provide a 1-for-1 option that requires no more thought that grabbing a different package at the grocer.
The switch to actual vegetables (or even tofu) takes a bit more thought. Tofu isn't usually tasty on it's own (but is fantastic when cooked with other flavors). And for somebody reared on beef and pork, learning to cook vegetables as the main ingredient takes time and new recipes.
However, I do see a place for meat substitutes as an option for "veggie curious" consumers who want to move away from meat consumption. If you're used to grilling hamburgers with the family every Saturday afternoon, meat substitutes provide a 1-for-1 option that requires no more thought that grabbing a different package at the grocer.
The switch to actual vegetables (or even tofu) takes a bit more thought. Tofu isn't usually tasty on it's own (but is fantastic when cooked with other flavors). And for somebody reared on beef and pork, learning to cook vegetables as the main ingredient takes time and new recipes.
As a decided carnivore I definitely agree: With some dishes, the chicken/beef/pork sometimes just doesn't add that much. Not in texture and not in taste. In that case, why include it in the first place? I guess because of old habits.
I'm going to try to avoid including meat where it doesn't really add anything.
I'm going to try to avoid including meat where it doesn't really add anything.
> With some dishes, the chicken/beef/pork sometimes just doesn't add that much. Not in texture and not in taste.
If you experiment, you might find you actually miss the texture if you swap it with a different texture (like a burger with a bread-like texture probably isn't going to be great even if it had the same taste). So sometimes the plant-based alternative is really trying to replicate a texture that's pleasing for that dish (like something that tears, or is gooey, or spongey), or maybe something that absorbs the sauce a certain way etc.
It's common to hear people say "why do vegans give up meat but want to eat meat?" - sometimes it's just about finding a replacement that has some properties that are similar, like the texture.
If you experiment, you might find you actually miss the texture if you swap it with a different texture (like a burger with a bread-like texture probably isn't going to be great even if it had the same taste). So sometimes the plant-based alternative is really trying to replicate a texture that's pleasing for that dish (like something that tears, or is gooey, or spongey), or maybe something that absorbs the sauce a certain way etc.
It's common to hear people say "why do vegans give up meat but want to eat meat?" - sometimes it's just about finding a replacement that has some properties that are similar, like the texture.
I'm skeptical of plant-based burger alternatives. I'll wait until there's synth beef.
I was thinking about stuff like curries, pasta sauces, etc. I routinely use lots of chicken and beef for stuff like that, but I think it's mostly out of habit.
It's so hard to make make sauces with e.g. chicken or beef strips cooked just right so that they're juicy/delicious/salted just right - I still fail most of the time after doing it like 100+ times.
Using fattier cuts is easy, but I wanted to master making a juicy/properly-seasoned dish from lean proteine. I don't think I can, as a hobby cook.
I was thinking about stuff like curries, pasta sauces, etc. I routinely use lots of chicken and beef for stuff like that, but I think it's mostly out of habit.
It's so hard to make make sauces with e.g. chicken or beef strips cooked just right so that they're juicy/delicious/salted just right - I still fail most of the time after doing it like 100+ times.
Using fattier cuts is easy, but I wanted to master making a juicy/properly-seasoned dish from lean proteine. I don't think I can, as a hobby cook.
> I'm skeptical of plant-based burger alternatives. I'll wait until there's synth beef.
> I was thinking about stuff like curries, pasta sauces, etc. I routinely use lots of chicken and beef for stuff like that, but I think it's mostly out of habit.
If you mean you'd prefer something where you know what all the ingredients are, try soy mince (it's just shredded soy, which has a texture like ground beef that absorbs flavours) and wheat-gluten/seitan (it's just regular flour with everything washed away but the gluten - has a chicken like texture with more protein than steak).
> It's so hard to make make sauces with e.g. chicken or beef strips cooked just right so that they're juicy/delicious/salted just right - I still fail most of the time after doing it like 100+ times.
Seitan is challenging like that but it's fun trying.
> I was thinking about stuff like curries, pasta sauces, etc. I routinely use lots of chicken and beef for stuff like that, but I think it's mostly out of habit.
If you mean you'd prefer something where you know what all the ingredients are, try soy mince (it's just shredded soy, which has a texture like ground beef that absorbs flavours) and wheat-gluten/seitan (it's just regular flour with everything washed away but the gluten - has a chicken like texture with more protein than steak).
> It's so hard to make make sauces with e.g. chicken or beef strips cooked just right so that they're juicy/delicious/salted just right - I still fail most of the time after doing it like 100+ times.
Seitan is challenging like that but it's fun trying.
Chicken is only flavourless if it is cooked to death. I seared two chicken breast in the tiniest amount of butter, then turned down the heat and ended up with some very nice chicken breasts.
Reading the handwringing over health in the comments it's pretty obvious some people have absolutely no idea what they're actually eating when they consume meat products.
Oh no! Processed seed oils! Give me a fucking break, we pump cows so full of hormones 8 year old girls are getting their periods [0].
Let's have some moral and factual clarity around the issue here, Vegetarians and Vegans are about the last people to argue processed foods are good, but we should keep our eyes on the prize: modern meat farming is awful for everyone involved. If you don't like it then don't eat it.
[0] https://www.centerforhealthjournalism.org/2016/06/22/precoci....
Oh no! Processed seed oils! Give me a fucking break, we pump cows so full of hormones 8 year old girls are getting their periods [0].
Let's have some moral and factual clarity around the issue here, Vegetarians and Vegans are about the last people to argue processed foods are good, but we should keep our eyes on the prize: modern meat farming is awful for everyone involved. If you don't like it then don't eat it.
[0] https://www.centerforhealthjournalism.org/2016/06/22/precoci....
You realize the crux of the article is that puberty can happen earlier or later depending on whether you have enough calory intake, aka food on the table.
To quote the article, girls did not menstruate until 17-18 three centuries ago... because they were starving.
To quote the article, girls did not menstruate until 17-18 three centuries ago... because they were starving.
Indeed!
The only thing to pay attention to, really, is B12. We all need it and even meat eaters should probably take a supplement.
The only thing to pay attention to, really, is B12. We all need it and even meat eaters should probably take a supplement.
Very true. Veggie and had low B12 once, but then so did my Dad (a meatatarian) to the point he had shots. U.K. people should also take Vit D btw.
>> Give me a fucking break, we pump cows so full of hormones 8 year old girls are getting their periods [0].
Who is "we"? The EU has banned the use of hormones in farm animals for growth promotion since 1981 and for most other uses in subsequent years:
In 1981, with Directive 81/602/EEC, the EU prohibited the use of substances having a hormonal action for growth promotion in farm animals. Examples for these kind of growth promoters are oestradiol 17ß, testosterone, progesterone, zeranol, trenbolone acetate and melengestrol acetate (MGA).
https://ec.europa.eu/food/safety/chemical_safety/meat_hormon...
Note also (same link):
The United States and Canada contested the prohibition of the use of hormones as growth promoters in food producing animals, and in 1997 a panel of the World Trade Organisation (WTO) ruled that the EU measure was not in line with the Agreement on the Application of Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures (SPS).
Eventually the EU was forced to accept importation of meat from animals treated with hormones.
In any case, there's no "we". Some countries do what you say, but not all.
Who is "we"? The EU has banned the use of hormones in farm animals for growth promotion since 1981 and for most other uses in subsequent years:
In 1981, with Directive 81/602/EEC, the EU prohibited the use of substances having a hormonal action for growth promotion in farm animals. Examples for these kind of growth promoters are oestradiol 17ß, testosterone, progesterone, zeranol, trenbolone acetate and melengestrol acetate (MGA).
https://ec.europa.eu/food/safety/chemical_safety/meat_hormon...
Note also (same link):
The United States and Canada contested the prohibition of the use of hormones as growth promoters in food producing animals, and in 1997 a panel of the World Trade Organisation (WTO) ruled that the EU measure was not in line with the Agreement on the Application of Sanitary and Phytosanitary Measures (SPS).
Eventually the EU was forced to accept importation of meat from animals treated with hormones.
In any case, there's no "we". Some countries do what you say, but not all.
I seem to be guilty of America-centrism again, my apologies.
I should clarify that my point has less to do with hormones specifically and more about how this comment section is applying a double standard of healthiness to meat alternatives generally. When it comes to industrial meat production if it ain’t one thing it’s another: feed quality/chemicals, handling/sale of diseased meat, animal waste on food, antibiotic use, etc.
It is also worth noting that as we speak the UK seems to be reconsidering it’s ban of hormones in meat as part of Brexit with pressure from the US.
I should clarify that my point has less to do with hormones specifically and more about how this comment section is applying a double standard of healthiness to meat alternatives generally. When it comes to industrial meat production if it ain’t one thing it’s another: feed quality/chemicals, handling/sale of diseased meat, animal waste on food, antibiotic use, etc.
It is also worth noting that as we speak the UK seems to be reconsidering it’s ban of hormones in meat as part of Brexit with pressure from the US.
Yes, I can see the double standards, too. There's no need to apologise though, I am not trying to make you feel guilty.
Industrial meat production is shameful, cruel, harmful to health and the environment and it should absolutely be replaced with something else- but that something else can't be another food industry stuffing us full of over-processed, well, shit (apologies - but this is really the best way to say what I mean).
>> It is also worth noting that as we speak the UK seems to be reconsidering it’s ban of hormones in meat as part of Brexit with pressure from the US.
Unfortunately, yes.
Industrial meat production is shameful, cruel, harmful to health and the environment and it should absolutely be replaced with something else- but that something else can't be another food industry stuffing us full of over-processed, well, shit (apologies - but this is really the best way to say what I mean).
>> It is also worth noting that as we speak the UK seems to be reconsidering it’s ban of hormones in meat as part of Brexit with pressure from the US.
Unfortunately, yes.
I've been vegan for 30 years so obviously I think it is about time. From an innovation/start-up perspective, this is an exciting time. If things continue moving this quickly, lab-grown meat will be regularly available soon. Whatever your personal feelings about animals, this is a huge win for the environment.
I think vegan/fake "meat" and lab-grown meat are/should be marketed as two different things, the later still being meat that happens to grown in a lab.
I'm not sure why people would be interested to consume meat grown in a lab considering all the unknowns/risks.
I'm not sure why people would be interested to consume meat grown in a lab considering all the unknowns/risks.
> I'm not sure why people would be interested to consume meat grown in a lab considering all the unknowns/risks.
Which ones? In general, most food-borne illnesses are a result of either faecal contamination, diseased animals, or poor post-production handling. 'Lab-grown' meat should be generally free of the first two. Obviously nothing's perfect, but it should in general be much easier to avoid contamination than in a slaughterhouse.
Which ones? In general, most food-borne illnesses are a result of either faecal contamination, diseased animals, or poor post-production handling. 'Lab-grown' meat should be generally free of the first two. Obviously nothing's perfect, but it should in general be much easier to avoid contamination than in a slaughterhouse.
>> In general, most food-borne illnesses
There is a risk of contamination in a lab as well and to be honest I don't understand why this kind of food is not subject to clinical trials. Some people(at least in the EU) try to avoid food resulted from livestock injected with hormones or other syntetic chemicals. Now you tell them to eat food grown(with hormones) in a lab.
I can't give you a good source on the subject so below is the first google result.
"most of the studies on safety are done or supported by the companies themselves.”
"It’s also long been known that breast cancer risk increases with higher lifetime exposure to estrogen. These facts have led many to question whether the continued use of synthetic estrogens in livestock is safe."
"The effects are very hard to study, experts say, because hormones are naturally present in both food and our bodies. Plus, the effects could be subtle and take years to show up."
https://www.webmd.com/diet/features/safer-food-healthier-you
There is a risk of contamination in a lab as well and to be honest I don't understand why this kind of food is not subject to clinical trials. Some people(at least in the EU) try to avoid food resulted from livestock injected with hormones or other syntetic chemicals. Now you tell them to eat food grown(with hormones) in a lab.
I can't give you a good source on the subject so below is the first google result.
"most of the studies on safety are done or supported by the companies themselves.”
"It’s also long been known that breast cancer risk increases with higher lifetime exposure to estrogen. These facts have led many to question whether the continued use of synthetic estrogens in livestock is safe."
"The effects are very hard to study, experts say, because hormones are naturally present in both food and our bodies. Plus, the effects could be subtle and take years to show up."
https://www.webmd.com/diet/features/safer-food-healthier-you
> There is a risk of contamination in a lab as well
Sure, but if it happens you can detect, determine what the problem was with the process, and fix it. With a slaughterhouse, you can reduce levels of contamination, certainly, but eliminating it is probably impractical; a certain risk is inherent to the process.
> and to be honest I don't understand why this kind of food is not subject to clinical trials
Right now, lab grown meat is effectively not commercially available, and being treated as a weird experimental thing. If it does become commercially available, it will presumably be subject to significant regulation.
> Some people(at least in the EU) try to avoid food resulted from livestock injected with hormones or other syntetic chemicals
Generally growth hormones for farm animals are _illegal_ in the EU. And you could reasonably expect similar rules to come in for any synthetic meat that might be available.
Sure, but if it happens you can detect, determine what the problem was with the process, and fix it. With a slaughterhouse, you can reduce levels of contamination, certainly, but eliminating it is probably impractical; a certain risk is inherent to the process.
> and to be honest I don't understand why this kind of food is not subject to clinical trials
Right now, lab grown meat is effectively not commercially available, and being treated as a weird experimental thing. If it does become commercially available, it will presumably be subject to significant regulation.
> Some people(at least in the EU) try to avoid food resulted from livestock injected with hormones or other syntetic chemicals
Generally growth hormones for farm animals are _illegal_ in the EU. And you could reasonably expect similar rules to come in for any synthetic meat that might be available.
Personally I would completely switch to lab grown meat immediately as long as it seemed safe and was reasonably affordable. I'm not a fan of eating animals but it's already hard enough to have a healthy diet without artificially restricting things, right now it just doesn't make sense for me.
For me, anything "lab grown" is definitely less preferable to naturally grown foods. So, even though I'm vegetarian, I would absolutely prefer to be eating meat than fake food, with unknown genetic and cellular anomalies.
Just look at the chemical cocktail that's in any off- the- shelf "meat alternative" products. No way do I want that stuff in my body.
If Tesco, or any big retailer was honest about increasing sustainability, they'd be focusing on how to decentralize warehousing and shipping, and a simple solution is to support local farming. Unfortunately, the world doesn't operate this way, and we're stuck with this need to purchase food from far flung parts of the world.
Just look at the chemical cocktail that's in any off- the- shelf "meat alternative" products. No way do I want that stuff in my body.
If Tesco, or any big retailer was honest about increasing sustainability, they'd be focusing on how to decentralize warehousing and shipping, and a simple solution is to support local farming. Unfortunately, the world doesn't operate this way, and we're stuck with this need to purchase food from far flung parts of the world.
I don't think there is a single answer to improving how humans create and consume food. You're definitely right that transportation is a huge issue. So is waste, environmental damage from animal agriculture, etc. The closer we can get to Star Trek replicators, the better.
The environment and consumers, but it will also destroy much of the American heartland. No need for raising the meat, growing the food to feet the animals or for butchering the meat means that a lot of people are going to be out of work, and there isn't going to be that much else.
so, if cows go extinct or nearly extinct like pandas because there is no demand for beef, will we blame vegans? :)
In the conversation that led to me originally going vegetarian, I made this argument. Sometimes I wonder if I care more about animals, or just relying on sound logic in arguments.
So the alternative is we keep them around purely for selfish reason so we can impregnate, rape, and eventually kill? If I was a cow I’d want to be extinct.
We have a plethora of options available today that don’t require an animal dying or suffering and yet we still turn to mass killings to feed our desires. Humans really are at the bottom of the pyramid.
We have a plethora of options available today that don’t require an animal dying or suffering and yet we still turn to mass killings to feed our desires. Humans really are at the bottom of the pyramid.
Living beings normally strive to make their spices survive as a group. There are billions of cows now. The bad side is that they are not evolving in the way how it could be in the wild, but they are not going extinct like dinosaurs either. Also, cows were hunted and killed by other animals in way more cruel manner than people do this now. I think they way how they are treated will be even better with time. Therefore their life along with humans is way more humane than what would happen to them in wild. Not so bad deal.
and btw, " If I was a cow I’d want to be extinct." - that's a good philosophical point that indicates the lurking nature of some of the vegans, vegetarians etc.
They are not only would rather think that it is better for a cow to die than to live some time, but also ..
..they would spread the idea that maybe humanity would better off going extinct..
And this idea genocidal idea can lead to things similar to what was done by different totalitarian streams of 20th century: Nazism, fascism, communism.
J.B.Peterson talks about this quite interestingly. But "woke" folks dont like him ;)
They are not only would rather think that it is better for a cow to die than to live some time, but also ..
..they would spread the idea that maybe humanity would better off going extinct..
And this idea genocidal idea can lead to things similar to what was done by different totalitarian streams of 20th century: Nazism, fascism, communism.
J.B.Peterson talks about this quite interestingly. But "woke" folks dont like him ;)
Here's an example of vegan, plant-based foods from another UK supermarket called Asda (their own-branded range).
https://groceries.asda.com/cmslisting/content/event?N=102737...
I have tried their 'Vegan Vegetable Fingers' and they are quite nice. However, I suspect many of these foods still count as 'processed foods'. Some consumers might mistakenly think they are healthy because they are plant-based (and the packaging will re-enforce that).
Here are the ingredients for the 'Vegan Vegetable Fingers' - would you buy these based on these ingredients? Or would the ingredients put you off?
- Vegetables (51%) [Carrots, Sweetcorn, Peas, Onions, Potatoes]
- Fortified Wheat Flour [Wheat Flour, Calcium Carbonate, Iron, Niacin (B3), Thiamin (B1)]
- Water
- Sunflower Oil
- Potato Flakes, Maize Starch, Wheat Gluten
- Salt, Sugar
- Rye Flour, Yeast Extract
- Pea Fibre
- Garlic Powder, Onion Powder, Yeast, White Pepper, Tomato Powder, Red Pepper Powder, Parsley, Flavouring, Sage, Black Pepper Extract, Sage Extract
https://groceries.asda.com/product/nuggets-fingers/asda-plan...
https://groceries.asda.com/cmslisting/content/event?N=102737...
I have tried their 'Vegan Vegetable Fingers' and they are quite nice. However, I suspect many of these foods still count as 'processed foods'. Some consumers might mistakenly think they are healthy because they are plant-based (and the packaging will re-enforce that).
Here are the ingredients for the 'Vegan Vegetable Fingers' - would you buy these based on these ingredients? Or would the ingredients put you off?
- Vegetables (51%) [Carrots, Sweetcorn, Peas, Onions, Potatoes]
- Fortified Wheat Flour [Wheat Flour, Calcium Carbonate, Iron, Niacin (B3), Thiamin (B1)]
- Water
- Sunflower Oil
- Potato Flakes, Maize Starch, Wheat Gluten
- Salt, Sugar
- Rye Flour, Yeast Extract
- Pea Fibre
- Garlic Powder, Onion Powder, Yeast, White Pepper, Tomato Powder, Red Pepper Powder, Parsley, Flavouring, Sage, Black Pepper Extract, Sage Extract
https://groceries.asda.com/product/nuggets-fingers/asda-plan...
That list doesn't look terrible.
I personally wouldn't eat it in place of meat (or at all) because of the wheat/gluten content. We do have some meat substitutes in the US that are gluten free (Impossible Burger) that tastes ok and has reasonable mouth-feel.
I personally wouldn't eat it in place of meat (or at all) because of the wheat/gluten content. We do have some meat substitutes in the US that are gluten free (Impossible Burger) that tastes ok and has reasonable mouth-feel.
+1 for Impossible Burgers!
Yes, this ones is a healthy option comparing to for example Beyond Meat burger which is mostly different oils (Palm oil :( ) and pea protein and sodium - very tasty comparing to other brands but so unhealthy.
Was just going to comment on how using palm oil seems like a very stupid idea for that particular company - given their particular target audience and non-budget price point - but it seems like they don't use palm oil after all.
https://www.beyondmeat.com/about/our-ingredients/
> OUR FATS: Cocoa Butter • Coconut Oil • Expeller-Pressed Canola Oil
https://www.beyondmeat.com/about/our-ingredients/
> OUR FATS: Cocoa Butter • Coconut Oil • Expeller-Pressed Canola Oil
Nothing particularly sinister there. Not even palm oil, a common scourge of cheap processed food.
> However, I suspect many of these foods still count as 'processed foods'. Some consumers might mistakenly think they are healthy because they are plant-based
Looks fine to me. I recognise all the individual ingredients and many home cooking recipes have ingredient lists as long as this (a chicken curry might have 20 ingredients for example).
I'm not really sure what problem you're implying there is here. It seems like a poor example if you're trying to say "not everything vegan is healthy" which nobody is saying anyway. Nobody eats vegan chocolate trying to lose weight, but they might do it to help with climate change and reduce animal suffering.
Looks fine to me. I recognise all the individual ingredients and many home cooking recipes have ingredient lists as long as this (a chicken curry might have 20 ingredients for example).
I'm not really sure what problem you're implying there is here. It seems like a poor example if you're trying to say "not everything vegan is healthy" which nobody is saying anyway. Nobody eats vegan chocolate trying to lose weight, but they might do it to help with climate change and reduce animal suffering.
I see nothing here that would put me off. What’s the one you were implying to be negative?
From what I understand, it's not always the ingredients that make processed food much less nutritious. Even if it doesn't have additives and preservatives, a lot of the nutrition is stripped out during the industrial cooking processes necessary to get them to market at scale. Therefore, while they may not be more processed than their meat-based counterparts, you're still better off avoiding them in favor of whole foods, since you need more to get the same nutritional value.
I'm not sure I get the whole "processed food" scare. If I cook an egg, have I not "processed" it with a thermal treatment, and made it better and safer than raw egg? What is this "processing" exactly that everybody is so scared about?
In a literal sense of the word, yes cooking and egg is processing it. However, when people are talking about processed food, it's usually in the context of the industrial processes involved. For instance, boiling a ton of vegetables in a giant vat, then draining the water that all the nutrients leeched into during the cooking process, and only using the vegetables sans nutrients. Sure, they're still vegetables, but they're less filling, leaving the body more hungry, which can lead to overeating.
I boil vegetables and tip them into a strainer when cooking at home. I don't see how the same process done at a larger scale would be worse for nutrition.
It's not, if you boil them and then throw out the water. That's one of the worst ways to cook vegetables. Most people steam their veggies to get the full nutritional value, unless they're making a soup or something, where they'll be keeping and using the broth.
Besides, like I said, that's just one example.
Besides, like I said, that's just one example.
The literature seems to agree with you on the effect of boiling vs steaming.[1] But that paper is from 2009, and the references are not much older. Older people's cooking habits were formed before this was well known, so I'm not so sure that "most people steam their veggies". I don't even own the equipment for steaming, and I had no idea about the benefits.
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2722699/
[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2722699/
> Most people steam their veggies to get the full nutritional value
You're correct. I should have said, most people steam their veggies when they're looking to get the full nutritional value.
You're correct. I should have said, most people steam their veggies when they're looking to get the full nutritional value.
> Even if it doesn't have additives and preservatives, a lot of the nutrition is stripped out during the industrial cooking processes necessary to get them to market at scale.
The main place where this might be a concern is canning (similar to using a pressure cooker).
The main place where this might be a concern is canning (similar to using a pressure cooker).
What's your issue with the ingredient list? It looks great.
For some more UK context, Gregg's (a cheap baker on most British high streets) started offering a vegan version of their sausage roll and it was a GIANT success: https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200202-how-did-the-ve...
Given the frequency I see the meat alternatives in the discounted section in various supermarkets I've visited, I think they have some work on their hands.
Yes, they have a lot of work on their hands. This is a classic Innovator's Dilemma, where an 'inferior' product technology/configuration/design starts off by taking over a niche, then gradually improves until it dominates the field.
I've never seen any in store demo's for any of the various products. I'd definitely try it if I could, but don't want to spend $15 on a few patties for a product I've never tried.
Whether they sell or not, meat alternatives should last longer, no? If they last longer that means they can afford to buy more to sell later
Having moved from middle of European continent into UK I have to say it is VERY easy to be a vegetarian or vegan here due to large variety and availability of substitutes. Previously most people I've met didn't really know what it meant to be one, they usually mistook it for pescetarianism (due to Catholic beliefs), and most vegetarians were hippies. Here it's not unusual for people not to eat meat, on no other grounds that they simply don't like it and never did.
I imagine that by saying "plant-based meat alternatives" they don't mean beans.
I eat vegetarian myself, and while on one side I'm happy there are more plant-based alternatives available, it does make me quite uncomfortable that many of these are hyper-processed industrial foods.
Food being plant-based or natural does not automatically make it more healthy.
Food being plant-based or natural does not automatically make it more healthy.
The goal is to improve animals living conditions. At least for me, that is.
No idea why you are being downvoted. This is dead on. Oreos are vegan, but it doesn’t make them healthy. I think the terms Vegetarian and Vegan are extremely misleading as most people assume that means healthy. I prefer “Whole Food, Plant Based” which would be hard to eat in an unhealthy manner.
> The UK’s largest supermarket will on Tuesday commit to boosting sales of meat alternatives by 300% within five years, by 2025. Over the past year, demand for chilled meat-free foods – the most popular line including burger, sausage and mince substitutes – has increased by almost 50%, the retailer said.
When the sales of this vegan category is $1 today the target will be reached by $3.
Ok could be sloppy reporting of the Guardian but also the press release of Tesco [0] doesn't mention amount of sales in a valuta. The Guardian almost did a one on one copy pasta here.
Meat replacers are much more expensive sometimes with a markup of 300% compared to meat. When measuring the environment effects of meat replacer sales, committing to a weight goal would even be more transparent so the public knows how much damage is prevented by Tesco.
[0] https://m.marketscreener.com/quote/stock/TESCO-PLC-4000540/n...
When the sales of this vegan category is $1 today the target will be reached by $3.
Ok could be sloppy reporting of the Guardian but also the press release of Tesco [0] doesn't mention amount of sales in a valuta. The Guardian almost did a one on one copy pasta here.
Meat replacers are much more expensive sometimes with a markup of 300% compared to meat. When measuring the environment effects of meat replacer sales, committing to a weight goal would even be more transparent so the public knows how much damage is prevented by Tesco.
[0] https://m.marketscreener.com/quote/stock/TESCO-PLC-4000540/n...
300% of very little is still not that much, but it's a good aim.
This may not be a popular opinion, but I simply do not understand why you need the massive environmental and economic overhead of creating such "alternative meat" products if you want to avoid eating animals. Plants are eatable and tasty without processing them into fake meat first.
Most of these new products that you see advertised are not aimed at Vegetarians or Vegans, but are actually aimed at meat eaters. Tesco has a range of meat products (such as burgers and mince) that are actually a mixture of real meat and plant based meat.
A lot of people know that meat has a high environmental footprint, and people are becoming aware of how poorly animals can be treated by factory farming.
Those people are looking to reduce their meat consumption, and these products are a crutch to allow that to happen.
A lot of people know that meat has a high environmental footprint, and people are becoming aware of how poorly animals can be treated by factory farming.
Those people are looking to reduce their meat consumption, and these products are a crutch to allow that to happen.
Possibly a slight generalisation, but these would mostly be aimed at people who eat processed food anyway, not those who cook. That is, the market isn't current vegetarians/vegans; it's people who eat processed meat.
That said, I'm not sure how bad the environmental overhead is. The main source of protein in these things is often either soya or peas. Soya is a bit of a tossup depending on where it's grown; it can be either very good or very bad (though probably still less bad than meat). Peas are generally pretty low overhead; in particular, they're nitrogen fixing (as are soybeans), so need less fertiliser.
That said, I'm not sure how bad the environmental overhead is. The main source of protein in these things is often either soya or peas. Soya is a bit of a tossup depending on where it's grown; it can be either very good or very bad (though probably still less bad than meat). Peas are generally pretty low overhead; in particular, they're nitrogen fixing (as are soybeans), so need less fertiliser.
I have yet to see a vegan substitute in Tesco/Sainsbury that's cheaper than the meat it's supposed to compare to. Found a few products that were nice but at £10-20 a kg it's not food it's a curiosity.
I've tried all the "plant-based alternatives to meat" I could find and they were either passable or almost vomit-inducing, the best ones barely taste as good as the cheapest meat I could get my hands on (frozen supermarket brand burger patties). I'll stick to halloumi burgers and salads/veggies, especially with the dubious nutritional qualities, origin of the raw ingredients and price of these things.
well, i guess it is time to short this stock :D
All of these plant based alternatives to meat are garbage filled with processed seed oils and additives.
To belive you can "add a vitamin here and there" and that that makes it a real nutrititious food equivalent of meat is laughably bad scienece, but people for some reason don't seem to get that.
To belive you can "add a vitamin here and there" and that that makes it a real nutrititious food equivalent of meat is laughably bad scienece, but people for some reason don't seem to get that.
The more apt comparison for these types of items talked about in this article is to processed meat products. Do meat eaters eat fast food quality hamburgers on a daily basis for “real nutrition”?
Processed meat products (including most fast food hamburger meat) are "processed" by adding textured vegetable protein (TVP).
What's TVP? It's processed soy flour. It's what makes up 100% of most meat alternatives on the market. So I'm not sure what point you thought you were making, but you're reinforcing the OP's argument.
Edit: Typo.
What's TVP? It's processed soy flour. It's what makes up 100% of most meat alternatives on the market. So I'm not sure what point you thought you were making, but you're reinforcing the OP's argument.
Edit: Typo.
A lot of the "modern" meat/dairy alternatives intentionally don't contain soy, as soy has gained (unfairly in my opinion) a poor reputation. It's a selling point to be soy free.
paulnechifor(1)
How is this not exactly like margarine or trans fats from vegetable oils? Let's take something natural and replace it with something made in a factory through all kinds of industrial food processes, but since it's made out of vegetables it must be okay! Remember when we were all in consensus on eliminating processed foods? But now that we're replacing meat, processed foods are A-okay.
Also, male fertility rates are crashing, but it's definitely not related to ever increasing intake of phytoestrogens...
Also, male fertility rates are crashing, but it's definitely not related to ever increasing intake of phytoestrogens...
The number of people willing to insist that phytoestrogens and other xenoestrogens aren’t related to why male fertility rates are quite really crashing is truly sad. You aren’t interested in an open discussion of the issues. You just want to shut down any perspective that implicates your chosen lifestyle as to why processed foods, plastics, and phytoestrogens and
other xenoestrogens are causing these issues. Yet like some of the impacts of the obesity crisis you blame “beer” as if people are suddenly doing this to themselves. This is massive blame shifting. Ask people why they are exercising enough to blame them for McDonalds while you’re at it.
> margarine or trans fats
also garbage, so not dissimilar.
also garbage, so not dissimilar.
Please give more information as to why factory foods created with vegetables aren’t similar between margins, trans fats, and other vegetable based foods and literally killed millions of people... but this time the vegetable based replacements are different...
>not DISsimilar
so I was saying they were similar, agreeing with you.
so I was saying they were similar, agreeing with you.
[deleted]
There's massively more phytoestrogens in beer than in soy.
Fertility rates are crashing because men are getting massively fat.
Fertility rates are crashing because men are getting massively fat.
And how are males not getting massively fat due to processed foods and the significant pressure of soybean oil and products based on soybean oil and other processed foods rich in xenoestrogens from factory foods? Yet you’re pointing to “beer” as if it some key ingredient. Does the introduction of beer somehow correlate with the collapse of male fertility rates? Or does the introduction of vegetable based factory foods correlate with the crash of male fertility?
It makes me sad that we were about the evidence before but seeding the desired answers now.
It makes me sad that we were about the evidence before but seeding the desired answers now.
It was implied that phytoestrogens from soy affect fertility when most of phytoestrogens consumed come from beer. Phytoestrogens do not have any significant effect on male hormones. Getting fat because one eats too much of food is the main reason.
The calory in calory out (CICO) model is pretty much debunked I think. Some foods affect metabolism, others affect satiety. People in the US had enough food a hundred years ago, yet they weren't morbidly obese.
Yet the average calorie intake in the USA, Australia and UK is at its highest amount in history.
My country (Croatia) went from an average of ~20kg of meat per year per person (~1990s) to ~70kg of meat per year per person in 30 years. The amount of calories is obviously massively different. The mediterranean diet in Croatia is dead.
People are getting obese and getting diseases that come with obesity (heart disease, diabetes etc.). Meat is not to blame, it's people eating massive amounts of calories, living an unhealthy sedentary lifestyle.
CICO model works for healthy people. For those with metabolic disease (diabetes and similar) it might not work completely.
My country (Croatia) went from an average of ~20kg of meat per year per person (~1990s) to ~70kg of meat per year per person in 30 years. The amount of calories is obviously massively different. The mediterranean diet in Croatia is dead.
People are getting obese and getting diseases that come with obesity (heart disease, diabetes etc.). Meat is not to blame, it's people eating massive amounts of calories, living an unhealthy sedentary lifestyle.
CICO model works for healthy people. For those with metabolic disease (diabetes and similar) it might not work completely.
Can you explain when the introduction of beer suddenly caused the crash in male fertility? As opposed to it being related to the huge push towards xenoestrogens? It’s cute to find a masculine form of victim blaming but there is literally zero evidence to back this up. You might as well blame ownership of pickup trucks for male fertility crashing. This is terribly hollow and baseless.
Beer contains magnitudes more phytoestrogens than soy.
I do not understand how soy is then to blame for phytoestrogen content when people consume more beer in their life than soy products.
That is the only reason why I mentioned beer. I do not believe phytoestrogens have any effect on male hormones.
It's quite known that getting obese has a massive effect on male hormones. The mehanistic/metabolism effect is known. We know why obese men become infertile, why they grow breasts (gynecomastia) and all the other effects of obesity.
I do not understand how soy is then to blame for phytoestrogen content when people consume more beer in their life than soy products.
That is the only reason why I mentioned beer. I do not believe phytoestrogens have any effect on male hormones.
It's quite known that getting obese has a massive effect on male hormones. The mehanistic/metabolism effect is known. We know why obese men become infertile, why they grow breasts (gynecomastia) and all the other effects of obesity.
The environmental impact is also suspect. There were about as many head of cattle (buffalo) in the US before white people arrived as there are now, but somehow the cows are causing global warming, not you know, fossil fuels.
Wouldn’t go as far as ‘garbage’ but they do tend to be filled with soy and grains, which far more people will be allergic/intolerant to than meat.
While some people are allergic to these, it's not at all common, and those people are likely to also have problems with processed meat (which often contains both).
As a vegan I agree that these foods come no where near the nutrition qualities of meat or organs. But I do not think that’s the point.
The Soylent Green generation has arrived. It's perfect that Tuesday is the day of the announcement.
"The UK’s largest supermarket will on Tuesday commit to boosting sales of meat alternatives by 300% within five years, by 2025."
"The UK’s largest supermarket will on Tuesday commit to boosting sales of meat alternatives by 300% within five years, by 2025."
Lots of stuff you eat right now is probably plant-based or easily convertible by substituting in regular vegetables e.g. curries, burritos, chilli, lasagne, pizza, sandwiches, pasta, stir fries, bean burgers, soups, stews, fries, cereals, cakes, breads etc.
Could you really not enjoy a pasta dish without meat (think tomatoes, mushrooms, olives, basil, garlic, capers)? Is it the taste of chicken you really enjoy in a chicken curry or is it more about the spices and the textures?
Ever notice you flavour almost every meat dish with lots of vegetable products and spices (e.g. people say chicken is tasteless without flavourings)? You can try the same flavourings on vegetables too without having to look for meat alternatives.