Ask HN: How much time do you think you would need to find meaningful work?
That's not related to technology but to finding meaningful work, which I believe that many care about.
I studied electrical and computer engineering, then worked as a software engineer for two companies and am currently enrolled in a PhD under a Marie Curie fellowship.
None of my previous work felt meaningful. I dislike my PhD more or less since I started. I initially took the position because I thought it would allow me more room to learning and get passionate. Additionally, due to the well-paying fellowship I thought it would be less stressful and with lower risk. Unfortunately, I am 1.5 years into it and I feel totally lost and far from finding meaning in my work which is something I crave since I started working.
My current savings would allow me to not have to work for 3-4 years. Do you think that this time is reasonably long enough for finding a more fulfilling work? Essentially I want to invest all my savings in finding a job that I like. How much time do you think you would need to find meaningful work?
14 comments
There is another possible path, and it goes something like: understand that the vast majority of people do not have jobs that they like, the day job is to pay the bills.
Instead, build meaning in other areas of your life outside the day job.
(optionally) optimise your day job & savings rate towards saving and investing enough so you can afford to spend more time on meaningful activities, and less (or no) time on the day job to generate income. If you save enough that you don't have to work for 25 years, then if you invest that in the stock market it may produce a real return of 4% each year- which on average covers your expenses.
Then maybe you have the rest of your life to look for more meaningful activities, and you also have the option of doing activities that don't generate any cashflow.
It may be worthwhile to explore and learn what kind of work you enjoy doing, to pinpoint some more specific characteristics you are looking for than 'meaningful'. Some ideas:
* you have autonomy vs being assigned goals from up the chain * you understand how your work contributes to a goal, and you care about the goal * the day to day work is enjoyable enough of the time * the physical work environment suits you * you get to see your work getting used & get feedback from people who use it
(if I score my own job on these five points it gets a score of about 1.5 / 5)
Instead, build meaning in other areas of your life outside the day job.
(optionally) optimise your day job & savings rate towards saving and investing enough so you can afford to spend more time on meaningful activities, and less (or no) time on the day job to generate income. If you save enough that you don't have to work for 25 years, then if you invest that in the stock market it may produce a real return of 4% each year- which on average covers your expenses.
Then maybe you have the rest of your life to look for more meaningful activities, and you also have the option of doing activities that don't generate any cashflow.
It may be worthwhile to explore and learn what kind of work you enjoy doing, to pinpoint some more specific characteristics you are looking for than 'meaningful'. Some ideas:
* you have autonomy vs being assigned goals from up the chain * you understand how your work contributes to a goal, and you care about the goal * the day to day work is enjoyable enough of the time * the physical work environment suits you * you get to see your work getting used & get feedback from people who use it
(if I score my own job on these five points it gets a score of about 1.5 / 5)
>There is another possible path, and it goes something like: understand that the vast majority of people do not have jobs that they like, the day job is to pay the bills.
From personal experience it seems to me that the majority of people do not enjoy their jobs and at the same time have given up on finding meaningful job. Another way of interpreting what you said could be to notice how people that have given up on finding meaning in their jobs are left with a job that primarily is there to pay the bills.
>(optionally) optimise your day job & savings rate towards saving and investing enough so you can afford to spend more time on meaningful activities, and less (or no) time on the day job to generate income. If you save enough that you don't have to work for 25 years, then if you invest that in the stock market it may produce a real return of 4% each year- which on average covers your expenses. Then maybe you have the rest of your life to look for more meaningful activities, and you also have the option of doing activities that don't generate any cashflow.
To me this imposes the risk of wasting your life in order to not work in your 50s and since we don't live twice that risk feels to big.
From personal experience it seems to me that the majority of people do not enjoy their jobs and at the same time have given up on finding meaningful job. Another way of interpreting what you said could be to notice how people that have given up on finding meaning in their jobs are left with a job that primarily is there to pay the bills.
>(optionally) optimise your day job & savings rate towards saving and investing enough so you can afford to spend more time on meaningful activities, and less (or no) time on the day job to generate income. If you save enough that you don't have to work for 25 years, then if you invest that in the stock market it may produce a real return of 4% each year- which on average covers your expenses. Then maybe you have the rest of your life to look for more meaningful activities, and you also have the option of doing activities that don't generate any cashflow.
To me this imposes the risk of wasting your life in order to not work in your 50s and since we don't live twice that risk feels to big.
It all depends on how well you know yourself and your desires. We are motivated by our desires to shape our purpose and give meaning to our life.
You mentioned your lack of interest in PhD program despite already 1.5 years into it. You might want to dig deeper into yourself to understand why that is the case. When you say meaningful, do you mean something that will change the world.
If you love doing something but you don't get recognised for it, would that bother you? If you did get recognised for a work which you were not passionate about. Would you still find meaning in it.
When you get more honest with yourself, the easier it will be to find the work that is meaningful. If you are not, then it might take years and you might only to bouncing from one work to another.
After I completed by engineering, I started a company with my friends - thinking this will be meaningful experience. And it was in many ways. It helped me understand myself and the world better. But, it took many years to figure out exactly what I wanted to do and where my heart lies. Most people don't take that journey.
So, if you want to find meaningful work, you need to start on the self exploration journey. Hope that was useful.
You mentioned your lack of interest in PhD program despite already 1.5 years into it. You might want to dig deeper into yourself to understand why that is the case. When you say meaningful, do you mean something that will change the world.
If you love doing something but you don't get recognised for it, would that bother you? If you did get recognised for a work which you were not passionate about. Would you still find meaning in it.
When you get more honest with yourself, the easier it will be to find the work that is meaningful. If you are not, then it might take years and you might only to bouncing from one work to another.
After I completed by engineering, I started a company with my friends - thinking this will be meaningful experience. And it was in many ways. It helped me understand myself and the world better. But, it took many years to figure out exactly what I wanted to do and where my heart lies. Most people don't take that journey.
So, if you want to find meaningful work, you need to start on the self exploration journey. Hope that was useful.
>You mentioned your lack of interest in PhD program despite already 1.5 years into it. You might want to dig deeper into yourself to understand why that is the case. When you say meaningful, do you mean something that will change the world.
Its because I believe I learn more interesting things than I would in a corporate job. Additionally I haven't been able to find a job that I find more interesting then my current one, although I am actively searching and interviewing. I believe that I search (heavily) based on my cv though, without going into new waters.
>If you love doing something but you don't get recognized for it, would that bother you?
No, I don't think it would.
>If you did get recognised for a work which you were not passionate about. Would you still find meaning in it?
I believe this would depend on factors such as who is benefited by my work, does my job contribute in solving a problem that I believe is important etc.. In general I believe recognition is not so important to me.
>After I completed by engineering, I started a company with my friends - thinking this will be meaningful experience. And it was in many ways. It helped me understand myself and the world better. But, it took many years to figure out exactly what I wanted to do and where my heart lies. Most people don't take that journey.
So, if you want to find meaningful work, you need to start on the self exploration journey. Hope that was useful.
That makes sense! Thanks for sharing this! What do you think contributed the most in finding what you wanted to do?
Its because I believe I learn more interesting things than I would in a corporate job. Additionally I haven't been able to find a job that I find more interesting then my current one, although I am actively searching and interviewing. I believe that I search (heavily) based on my cv though, without going into new waters.
>If you love doing something but you don't get recognized for it, would that bother you?
No, I don't think it would.
>If you did get recognised for a work which you were not passionate about. Would you still find meaning in it?
I believe this would depend on factors such as who is benefited by my work, does my job contribute in solving a problem that I believe is important etc.. In general I believe recognition is not so important to me.
>After I completed by engineering, I started a company with my friends - thinking this will be meaningful experience. And it was in many ways. It helped me understand myself and the world better. But, it took many years to figure out exactly what I wanted to do and where my heart lies. Most people don't take that journey.
So, if you want to find meaningful work, you need to start on the self exploration journey. Hope that was useful.
That makes sense! Thanks for sharing this! What do you think contributed the most in finding what you wanted to do?
I read a Wikipedia article about the concept of bad faith as described by Sartre. Bad faith([1]) comes close to how I feel and wanted to share it in case anyone else is interested.
[1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith_(existentialism)
[1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_faith_(existentialism)
> Essentially I want to invest all my savings in finding a job that I like
That's a very interesting distillation. It seems like you've already decided it's possible to find life "meaning" at work.
Like other comments have mentioned, you've provided no information as to what "meaningful" looks like to you.
I have a friend/former colleague that hated work. We would complain in the lunchroom together about the insanity of cooperate life. I quit the job for an equally insane (but much better paying) role.
A few years later, we caught up for a beer. He quit a few months after I did and got a job with the local government maintaining a wetland area near a large city. He was getting paid 65K per year and absolutely loved the work more than anything. He loved the fact he was actively saving something everyday and wasn't in an office.
Other than the above friend, I know exactly zero other people IRL that claim to have get significant "meaning" from work. Including myself.
That's a very interesting distillation. It seems like you've already decided it's possible to find life "meaning" at work.
Like other comments have mentioned, you've provided no information as to what "meaningful" looks like to you.
I have a friend/former colleague that hated work. We would complain in the lunchroom together about the insanity of cooperate life. I quit the job for an equally insane (but much better paying) role.
A few years later, we caught up for a beer. He quit a few months after I did and got a job with the local government maintaining a wetland area near a large city. He was getting paid 65K per year and absolutely loved the work more than anything. He loved the fact he was actively saving something everyday and wasn't in an office.
Other than the above friend, I know exactly zero other people IRL that claim to have get significant "meaning" from work. Including myself.
>It seems like you've already decided it's possible to find life "meaning" at work.
I have decided that the search for meaning at work is meaningful on its own even if I end up never finding a meaningful job. This is because I believe while searching for meaning in work I would have to try out new type of jobs through which I would discover more of me in general. But from a practical point of view I indeed believe that a person that is actively searching for a meaningful job will find it. >A few years later, we caught up for a beer. He quit a few months after I did and got a job with the local government maintaining a wetland area near a large city. He was getting paid 65K per year and absolutely loved the work more than anything. He loved the fact he was actively saving something everyday and wasn't in an office.
Other than the above friend, I know exactly zero other people IRL that claim to have get significant "meaning" from work. Including myself.
Thanks for sharing this!
I have decided that the search for meaning at work is meaningful on its own even if I end up never finding a meaningful job. This is because I believe while searching for meaning in work I would have to try out new type of jobs through which I would discover more of me in general. But from a practical point of view I indeed believe that a person that is actively searching for a meaningful job will find it. >A few years later, we caught up for a beer. He quit a few months after I did and got a job with the local government maintaining a wetland area near a large city. He was getting paid 65K per year and absolutely loved the work more than anything. He loved the fact he was actively saving something everyday and wasn't in an office.
Other than the above friend, I know exactly zero other people IRL that claim to have get significant "meaning" from work. Including myself.
Thanks for sharing this!
>How much time do you think you would need to find meaningful work?
Are you sure you can find work meaningful? I think lots of people eventually reach a point in their job/career where they stop trying to find meaning in work and try to find meaning elsewhere.
I've got a PhD and have worked in some different types of jobs inside and outside Academia. Instead of meaning, I try to understand if I can feel useful in my job. And by "useful" I don't mean curing cancer, feeding starving children, etc. If a person works in a huge company and builds a simple dashboard that saves people hundreds of hours of manual work, they can feel really useful. Maybe some parts of the job are actually interesting as well as useful.
I feel places like HN massively over-represents people who find or claim to find "meaning" in their work. It's hard to really evaluate what people are saying without knowing their age, career progression, the opportunities they did and did not have, etc.
Are you sure you can find work meaningful? I think lots of people eventually reach a point in their job/career where they stop trying to find meaning in work and try to find meaning elsewhere.
I've got a PhD and have worked in some different types of jobs inside and outside Academia. Instead of meaning, I try to understand if I can feel useful in my job. And by "useful" I don't mean curing cancer, feeding starving children, etc. If a person works in a huge company and builds a simple dashboard that saves people hundreds of hours of manual work, they can feel really useful. Maybe some parts of the job are actually interesting as well as useful.
I feel places like HN massively over-represents people who find or claim to find "meaning" in their work. It's hard to really evaluate what people are saying without knowing their age, career progression, the opportunities they did and did not have, etc.
Honestly, I think I could find meaningful work I love in 6 months or so, faster if I just decided to start my own company again.
I think the key there is I already know what is meaningful to me and what brings me joy overall -- although that took me far longer then I'd like to admit. If you are searching for that still, which is totally reasonable, then I'd say it could take you a year or two if you do some passive activities that bring you opportunities. My suggestion if you are struggling finding something that is meaningful you need to travel and you need to try a bunch of different things to see what matters to you, interact with many different people in areas that you wouldn't normally you'll be surprised what they can teach you. Attempt things you think would bring you meaning, you may find they don't.
I think the key there is I already know what is meaningful to me and what brings me joy overall -- although that took me far longer then I'd like to admit. If you are searching for that still, which is totally reasonable, then I'd say it could take you a year or two if you do some passive activities that bring you opportunities. My suggestion if you are struggling finding something that is meaningful you need to travel and you need to try a bunch of different things to see what matters to you, interact with many different people in areas that you wouldn't normally you'll be surprised what they can teach you. Attempt things you think would bring you meaning, you may find they don't.
I am reading a book right now, "Designing your life". It brought one good point that we don't know what we will want in 5 years or even what we want in 5 minutes.
Instead think in terms of a project where you will design multiple prototypes. You need to choose one of the prototype and move forward. Let market (your internal state) decide if choice was correct or not. And if it wasn't, design more prototypes while you are still selling the current one.
Instead think in terms of a project where you will design multiple prototypes. You need to choose one of the prototype and move forward. Let market (your internal state) decide if choice was correct or not. And if it wasn't, design more prototypes while you are still selling the current one.
You haven't told us what "meaningful work" means to you.
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Agreed. Hard to find meaning at work if you don't know what it means to find something meaningful.
why wouldn't you start your own small business that would grow over time?
you have some savings, 3 years is enough to see if you can start business that grows, plus you learn much in the process.
you have some savings, 3 years is enough to see if you can start business that grows, plus you learn much in the process.