Ask HN: How to Cultivate Gifted Child's Interest in Science?
33 comments
I currently am a 'gifted child', and it really is all bullshit. I go to a 'prestigious' school where everyone around me is a 'gifted child', and so many of us are perpetually tired and perpetually beginning to burn out: this solely because we could read and write at higher than expected levels for our ages in 3rd grade. I don't mean to be ungrateful. My education is amazing, but it's not inherently meaningful, and you should be careful. There is no difference between a gifted child and an ungifted child. We get just as tired just as quickly.
> My four year old daughter is exceptionally gifted (generally), and profoundly so with visual-spatial intelligence and math.
And? These are test results. They mean nothing. Sometimes the argument delivered to 'gifted kids' is that they have a gift and thus a responsibility to use it, which is, as previously stated, bullshit. I have no gift aside from existence, the same as every other person. I say this because you can't interpret test results as a reflection of the brain --- or _intelligence_, whatever that is. Tests are limited in scope, innacurate, and probabalistic. They're determined by so many factors that aren't intelligence, and so many subsections of intelligence are excluded or included arbitrarily. Pretending I or your child has more of a nebulous and immeasureable quality is a factually innacurate burden that makes living harder. I won't give parenting advice, but I will give my perspective. I hope it's helpful.
> My four year old daughter is exceptionally gifted (generally), and profoundly so with visual-spatial intelligence and math.
And? These are test results. They mean nothing. Sometimes the argument delivered to 'gifted kids' is that they have a gift and thus a responsibility to use it, which is, as previously stated, bullshit. I have no gift aside from existence, the same as every other person. I say this because you can't interpret test results as a reflection of the brain --- or _intelligence_, whatever that is. Tests are limited in scope, innacurate, and probabalistic. They're determined by so many factors that aren't intelligence, and so many subsections of intelligence are excluded or included arbitrarily. Pretending I or your child has more of a nebulous and immeasureable quality is a factually innacurate burden that makes living harder. I won't give parenting advice, but I will give my perspective. I hope it's helpful.
I'm sorry you're having a hard time with this. My life is your counter factual, maybe it will provide a different perspective.
I was identified as highly gifted around that age as well, but my parents prevented me from participating in my schools' GATE programs. It is not hard to see how that decision cascaded through my life and led to a lot of avoidable painful outcomes.
I was so far ahead of my peers that school was unbearably tedious by grade 7 and I became a "bad kid". I did the bare minimum in high school so I could pursue my interests away from class. My GPA reflected that level of engagement.
Because my academic record screamed "truant, not motivated, difficult", I was locked out of top quality universities and scholarships I should have easily obtained. I graduated from a mediocre college with avoidable student debt and access to lower quality career options than I would have had through a better school.
I course corrected in my 30s and have had a nice career and family life, but there were 10-12 years of missed opportunities and unnecessary suffering.
Access to opportunity is like compound interest in that early success leads to more opportunity. Invest early and your life will more likely have positive social and economic outcomes. Missing opportunities early can be very costly.
I don't know if gifted kids are being pushed too hard or not. Sometimes, in an effort to provide early opportunities, parents lose sight of what it means to be a kid. That is sad, no question, but challenging gifted kids is important, because not doing so can lead to avoidable personal and professional difficulties. My life is proof of that.
I was identified as highly gifted around that age as well, but my parents prevented me from participating in my schools' GATE programs. It is not hard to see how that decision cascaded through my life and led to a lot of avoidable painful outcomes.
I was so far ahead of my peers that school was unbearably tedious by grade 7 and I became a "bad kid". I did the bare minimum in high school so I could pursue my interests away from class. My GPA reflected that level of engagement.
Because my academic record screamed "truant, not motivated, difficult", I was locked out of top quality universities and scholarships I should have easily obtained. I graduated from a mediocre college with avoidable student debt and access to lower quality career options than I would have had through a better school.
I course corrected in my 30s and have had a nice career and family life, but there were 10-12 years of missed opportunities and unnecessary suffering.
Access to opportunity is like compound interest in that early success leads to more opportunity. Invest early and your life will more likely have positive social and economic outcomes. Missing opportunities early can be very costly.
I don't know if gifted kids are being pushed too hard or not. Sometimes, in an effort to provide early opportunities, parents lose sight of what it means to be a kid. That is sad, no question, but challenging gifted kids is important, because not doing so can lead to avoidable personal and professional difficulties. My life is proof of that.
I wish at least few percents of grownups were as wise as you.
1. LEGOs, "The Way Things Work" by David Macaulay, programming (for me, LOGO, Excel, TI-Basic, but there's better now), any kind of game system to analyze or theorycraft (but avoid games with too much time-sink!)
1a. Look for kindred spirits in general. Knowledgeable and enthusiastic science, math, and history teachers, but also find peers!
2. Don't bother with this. It creates a tunnel vision that smothers other futures, and sets up destiny as something to dread, instead of something to happily stumble upon. Inventions come from synthesis across fields more than specialization within one.
1a. Look for kindred spirits in general. Knowledgeable and enthusiastic science, math, and history teachers, but also find peers!
2. Don't bother with this. It creates a tunnel vision that smothers other futures, and sets up destiny as something to dread, instead of something to happily stumble upon. Inventions come from synthesis across fields more than specialization within one.
Start teaching her to use tools of all kinds now. She will have her own ideas about projects and being fluent in executing on her ideas will be a general force multiplier. A stack of printer paper, a ruler, a pencil, and a compass should always be available. General arts and crafts are good at that age for getting off the ground.
Go to thrift stores and get super cheap electronics for her to take apart with hand tools. Old printers, scanners, cameras are good to start. Look for local HAM radio meets, they are a good source of cheap test equipment. The people there will be good sources of information about local things of interest like robotics clubs etc. Seeing the insides of common things demystifies them and builds general physical intuition.
Talk about the concept of infinity using sensibilities from calculus and analysis. Kids have a natural interest in infinity and you can get them thinking about universally useful concepts like convergence without them knowing it. Use games to help her build physically accurate intuition for probability from the start.
Get her away from artificial environments and let her observe the natural world.
I particularly remember my friends dad who was an engineer. They had a nice shop in their basement and my friend and i hung out down there alot making nonsense. His dad was building a cnc milling machine at home around 2004 and seeing firsthand that an individual could actually build something complex like that and have it connect to a computer just like any off-the-shelf product blew my mind. It really drove home that even seemingly impenetrable things not tought in school could in fact be conquered as a hobby. Fortunately those kinds of projects are more accessible than ever these days.
Go to thrift stores and get super cheap electronics for her to take apart with hand tools. Old printers, scanners, cameras are good to start. Look for local HAM radio meets, they are a good source of cheap test equipment. The people there will be good sources of information about local things of interest like robotics clubs etc. Seeing the insides of common things demystifies them and builds general physical intuition.
Talk about the concept of infinity using sensibilities from calculus and analysis. Kids have a natural interest in infinity and you can get them thinking about universally useful concepts like convergence without them knowing it. Use games to help her build physically accurate intuition for probability from the start.
Get her away from artificial environments and let her observe the natural world.
I particularly remember my friends dad who was an engineer. They had a nice shop in their basement and my friend and i hung out down there alot making nonsense. His dad was building a cnc milling machine at home around 2004 and seeing firsthand that an individual could actually build something complex like that and have it connect to a computer just like any off-the-shelf product blew my mind. It really drove home that even seemingly impenetrable things not tought in school could in fact be conquered as a hobby. Fortunately those kinds of projects are more accessible than ever these days.
Also let her have enough unstructured time to be bored. I would resist letting the boredom be sated by tv or scrolling. This is a feedback loop that should be avoided in general, but in my experience gifted kids can be very susceptible to developing bad attention habbits. You might consider not having cable tv service, or at least arranging common areas to not have the tv as the focal point of the space.
First you need to know you can’t motivate other people. Because if you think about it, the other term for that would be mind control.
Second, by far the most valuable thing you can do is to model the behavior you want to see from them and don’t say a damn thing about it. For example, my children are exquisitely polite. They literally needed no more than about 30 seconds of explicit instruction about manners in their entire lives. That is because I always treated them with the same kind of politeness I use with anyone else, which is considerable.
My kids are also amazing with chopsticks. They don’t even remember not using them. This is considered super important in Asian families, and they just sort of picked it up because my wife and I never pressured them. It becomes a power thing in most Asian families and you end up with all sorts of bizarre struggles and strange training chopstick appliances. We avoided all that by not caring about whether they used chopsticks.
I am a programmer and love programming. My youngest kid didn’t go to college (nor did I). She just sort of knocked around in dumb retail jobs. My wife really wanted her to take classes in programming and I told my wife to chill. Then a couple of months ago the kid decided to learn programming and asked me for assistance. She says outright it never would have happened if there’d been any pressure on my part, especially because she had a terrible experience in a Python programming class in school.
If you really want your child to explore a STEM education, there is nothing stopping you from educating yourself, right now, no matter how old you are. If you show joy in that kind of exploration, your child will show joy in exploration. Maybe not in the areas you like, but it will transfer in some way, I promise. I teach myself hard things all the time, and I am in my 60s with two jobs, bad health, and a difficult home situation. It can be done.
Second, by far the most valuable thing you can do is to model the behavior you want to see from them and don’t say a damn thing about it. For example, my children are exquisitely polite. They literally needed no more than about 30 seconds of explicit instruction about manners in their entire lives. That is because I always treated them with the same kind of politeness I use with anyone else, which is considerable.
My kids are also amazing with chopsticks. They don’t even remember not using them. This is considered super important in Asian families, and they just sort of picked it up because my wife and I never pressured them. It becomes a power thing in most Asian families and you end up with all sorts of bizarre struggles and strange training chopstick appliances. We avoided all that by not caring about whether they used chopsticks.
I am a programmer and love programming. My youngest kid didn’t go to college (nor did I). She just sort of knocked around in dumb retail jobs. My wife really wanted her to take classes in programming and I told my wife to chill. Then a couple of months ago the kid decided to learn programming and asked me for assistance. She says outright it never would have happened if there’d been any pressure on my part, especially because she had a terrible experience in a Python programming class in school.
If you really want your child to explore a STEM education, there is nothing stopping you from educating yourself, right now, no matter how old you are. If you show joy in that kind of exploration, your child will show joy in exploration. Maybe not in the areas you like, but it will transfer in some way, I promise. I teach myself hard things all the time, and I am in my 60s with two jobs, bad health, and a difficult home situation. It can be done.
> In what areas will science have the potentially greatest impact for the benefit of humanity in 20 years?
This shouldn't matter, progress comes from kids ignoring adults advice and going their own way not from trying to lead kids to solutions we think should exist. Gifted kids who got pushed into accelerating their education rarely does anything super impressive as adults. They become regular professors or join prestigious companies as regular employees, which is impressive, but it is hardly something that you would write about in history books.
So if you care about the future of humanity let her explore the world for herself and choose her own path.
This shouldn't matter, progress comes from kids ignoring adults advice and going their own way not from trying to lead kids to solutions we think should exist. Gifted kids who got pushed into accelerating their education rarely does anything super impressive as adults. They become regular professors or join prestigious companies as regular employees, which is impressive, but it is hardly something that you would write about in history books.
So if you care about the future of humanity let her explore the world for herself and choose her own path.
Short answer: I loved visits to the library and the local science museum.
Long answer: Provide lots of opportunities for unstructured play and exploration. I've intentionally filled my adult house with "tools" of all varieties for my young daughter so that no matter what she's into, she has an outlet. Practically speaking, this means that she will always have access to: paper, pencils, crayons, rulers, tape (so much tape!), cardboard boxes, old digital cameras, batteries / flashlights, garden implements, woodworking tools, a soldering iron, several musical instruments, sports balls, a well-stocked kitchen, LEGO, etc etc etc. These were the things I appreciated from my own childhood.
Re: #2 - The biggest world-impacting thing 20 years from now can be guessed at but is unknowable. The best chance to ride this new unknown trend is to develop curiosity and adaptability.
One item to watch out for: though you shouldn't push your daughter to excel everywhere, you should definitely push her in at least one area that's hard and intimidating for her. If you don't, she'll get bored in school. Worse, when she encounters something difficult she'll think there's something wrong with her and give up rather than work through it like everyone else. The sooner she learns this lesson the better. "Working on things that don't come easily" didn't really sink in for me until later in life so I have a bunch of regrets around missed opportunities.
Long answer: Provide lots of opportunities for unstructured play and exploration. I've intentionally filled my adult house with "tools" of all varieties for my young daughter so that no matter what she's into, she has an outlet. Practically speaking, this means that she will always have access to: paper, pencils, crayons, rulers, tape (so much tape!), cardboard boxes, old digital cameras, batteries / flashlights, garden implements, woodworking tools, a soldering iron, several musical instruments, sports balls, a well-stocked kitchen, LEGO, etc etc etc. These were the things I appreciated from my own childhood.
Re: #2 - The biggest world-impacting thing 20 years from now can be guessed at but is unknowable. The best chance to ride this new unknown trend is to develop curiosity and adaptability.
One item to watch out for: though you shouldn't push your daughter to excel everywhere, you should definitely push her in at least one area that's hard and intimidating for her. If you don't, she'll get bored in school. Worse, when she encounters something difficult she'll think there's something wrong with her and give up rather than work through it like everyone else. The sooner she learns this lesson the better. "Working on things that don't come easily" didn't really sink in for me until later in life so I have a bunch of regrets around missed opportunities.
Your job isn't to make sure she reaches her utmost potential. Your job is to make sure she ends up happy. Plenty of people have lived incredibly productive, and yet profoundly unhappy, lives.
We want to foster an environment that constantly challenges her
Why though? If that's what makes her happiest, fine. But what are you going to do when she just wants to play a fun and non-challenging game?
I see the comments here are already telling you to avoid this and that. These people are wrong. Don't max your kid's impact. Max your kid's happiness. (And obviously I mean lifetime happiness, not only happiness in the moment... though that too)
We want to foster an environment that constantly challenges her
Why though? If that's what makes her happiest, fine. But what are you going to do when she just wants to play a fun and non-challenging game?
I see the comments here are already telling you to avoid this and that. These people are wrong. Don't max your kid's impact. Max your kid's happiness. (And obviously I mean lifetime happiness, not only happiness in the moment... though that too)
This was also my first thought. OP you should take a look at all the other comments, but don't loose sight of the fact that you need to optimize for her overall physical, emotional and mental wellbeing.
The nice thing about profoundly gifted kids is that you couldn't stop them from learning STEM topics if you wanted to.
The hard thing about PG kids is that if it isn't interest led, it isn't happening.
PG kids are way out ahead intellectually than they are emotionally. But it's like any person: mentors who challenge them, coaching on good and bad influences, and age appropriate social learning.
I grew up in the country without internet, but similarly had 160 IQ at 4. I'd say nature was my favorite way to learn until I was 8: just walking around asking what and why about everything. I was unschooled though so I can't say what school experience would have been.
As I got older, I struggled emotionally more, especially as a teenager. It turns out having #1 marks in your school is not how to win the social tournament. So I calibrated that mid 70s grades would be game theoretic optimum between parental disappointment and cool to friends.
At 16 I essentially decided I was done with school, did two years in one and got a full time white collar job. At 18 I ran a business unit, etc. You couldn't stop me, that was the obsession.
Around when I was 12 I realized most adults were too stupid to have much to offer. They couldn't really cope with how hard their lives were, and couldn't synthesize things beyond 3 month timescales. I just read hundreds of books trying to find adults who were ahead of me, and found it. But again, STEM wasn't the limit, philosophy, social sciences, religion, etc you can't can it up and try to Google engineer path someone that smart.
It's very stressful being able to imagine worlds that could be but can't because people can't understand them and you can't patiently communicate it. That doesn't really end though.
I think if they can read, curating intellectual age reading list of wide range of subjects including and beyond STEM would have been something I appreciated more. Also encourage creation, books are stimulation but what about writing?
They will probably have adult STEM abilities including coding by like 14. So it's really going to be more about character, social and values education for the next little bit when you still have moral high ground.
The hard point isn't how fast they think it's how different. They will be an island of one. I wish my parents helped me cope with that and I didn't have to feel like an island before I understood I wasn't normal.
Hope this helps.
The hard thing about PG kids is that if it isn't interest led, it isn't happening.
PG kids are way out ahead intellectually than they are emotionally. But it's like any person: mentors who challenge them, coaching on good and bad influences, and age appropriate social learning.
I grew up in the country without internet, but similarly had 160 IQ at 4. I'd say nature was my favorite way to learn until I was 8: just walking around asking what and why about everything. I was unschooled though so I can't say what school experience would have been.
As I got older, I struggled emotionally more, especially as a teenager. It turns out having #1 marks in your school is not how to win the social tournament. So I calibrated that mid 70s grades would be game theoretic optimum between parental disappointment and cool to friends.
At 16 I essentially decided I was done with school, did two years in one and got a full time white collar job. At 18 I ran a business unit, etc. You couldn't stop me, that was the obsession.
Around when I was 12 I realized most adults were too stupid to have much to offer. They couldn't really cope with how hard their lives were, and couldn't synthesize things beyond 3 month timescales. I just read hundreds of books trying to find adults who were ahead of me, and found it. But again, STEM wasn't the limit, philosophy, social sciences, religion, etc you can't can it up and try to Google engineer path someone that smart.
It's very stressful being able to imagine worlds that could be but can't because people can't understand them and you can't patiently communicate it. That doesn't really end though.
I think if they can read, curating intellectual age reading list of wide range of subjects including and beyond STEM would have been something I appreciated more. Also encourage creation, books are stimulation but what about writing?
They will probably have adult STEM abilities including coding by like 14. So it's really going to be more about character, social and values education for the next little bit when you still have moral high ground.
The hard point isn't how fast they think it's how different. They will be an island of one. I wish my parents helped me cope with that and I didn't have to feel like an island before I understood I wasn't normal.
Hope this helps.
> But again, STEM wasn't the limit, philosophy, social sciences, religion, etc you can't can it up and try to Google engineer path someone that smart.
I feel much more able to facilitate growth in these areas than I do in STEM, thus the scope of my question.
>The hard point isn't how fast they think it's how different. They will be an island of one. I wish my parents helped me cope with that and I didn't have to feel like an island before I understood I wasn't normal.
This is the lead. Thank you.
I feel much more able to facilitate growth in these areas than I do in STEM, thus the scope of my question.
>The hard point isn't how fast they think it's how different. They will be an island of one. I wish my parents helped me cope with that and I didn't have to feel like an island before I understood I wasn't normal.
This is the lead. Thank you.
Having mentored quite a few gifted science students, the best thing that I have found is to give them a problem, give them a bunch of things and tools that they can break and tell them find a solution.
Find time to discuss various solutions or find mentors for your child who can do the same. Let the child understand more, not by making, but by breaking the problem down to the smallest units possible and see the connection.
With the same philosophy we are working to build one room labs in public schools in Nepal called tinker lab (www.tinker-lab.org)
Find time to discuss various solutions or find mentors for your child who can do the same. Let the child understand more, not by making, but by breaking the problem down to the smallest units possible and see the connection.
With the same philosophy we are working to build one room labs in public schools in Nepal called tinker lab (www.tinker-lab.org)
Glad to see fellow Nepali here on HN.
Yes mentorship is very important aspect in helping a child grow.
Tinker Lab sounds like an amazing concept. How many schools have you worked with so far?
Yes mentorship is very important aspect in helping a child grow.
Tinker Lab sounds like an amazing concept. How many schools have you worked with so far?
There are two excellent books you should read precisely on the topic of educating girls and raising daughters to cultivate their interest in science and technology:
* Unlocking the Clubhouse: Women in Computing explains when and why girls start moving away from STEM and conversely how girls that do persist do so
* Lifting the Barriers: 600 Strategies That Really Work to Increase Girls' Participation in Science, Mathematics and Computers is basically a bulleted listed of tested techniques by K-12 educators
* Unlocking the Clubhouse: Women in Computing explains when and why girls start moving away from STEM and conversely how girls that do persist do so
* Lifting the Barriers: 600 Strategies That Really Work to Increase Girls' Participation in Science, Mathematics and Computers is basically a bulleted listed of tested techniques by K-12 educators
> 1. If you were a gifted child, what were the activities, games, questions, or ideas that you most loved, or that ignited and really engaged your interest in science and technology?
Free learning played a bigger part than anything else. As in, I just kinda did stuff, got intrigued, learned all about a topic and got more and more invested. It had nothing to do with science/STEM directly. If your kid seems interested in something, let them mentally wander through it. Make lots of mistakes, learn to learn, learn how to ask questions and think critically.
> 1a. Was there any one person who had a disproportionately positive impact on your STEM education, and if so, why and how?
My grandmother spent a boatload of money on positive-minded gifts. She bought me my first computer, but also bought me lots of books, instruments, outdoor play implements, etc. Anything that wasn't "brain junk" she'd buy for me basically whenever she could.
I will also say that I would've never done any of this had my parents tried to push me into it. That's where the free learning comes in. Prior to 4th grade I brought up being vaguely interested in school band, the next week my grandmother set up a clarinet rental and had the forms ready to go for me to join. When I wanted to quit, she said no problem, ended the rental, was happy to wait and see where I'd go next.
> 2. In what areas will science have the potentially greatest impact for the benefit of humanity in 20 years? What are the biggest and most challenging problems to solve just over the horizon?
I would echo the sentiment of other commenters and say you're thinking far far too specifically about your child's development. Your daughter is 4. Encourage her to learn and play.
Basically, I think if you're thinking much further ahead than encouraging your child to enjoy learning, exploring and experimenting, you're probably overparenting. Your kid should like you. Your kid should not think you're pushing them in any obvious direction (other than cultivating them as a human). Be open to the idea that your child might be the next Mozart. If your child is actually gifted, allow them to use their gifts in a way they're comfortable and excited about. They're still a child, which means they sometimes want to play and eat candy and be bored.
Free learning played a bigger part than anything else. As in, I just kinda did stuff, got intrigued, learned all about a topic and got more and more invested. It had nothing to do with science/STEM directly. If your kid seems interested in something, let them mentally wander through it. Make lots of mistakes, learn to learn, learn how to ask questions and think critically.
> 1a. Was there any one person who had a disproportionately positive impact on your STEM education, and if so, why and how?
My grandmother spent a boatload of money on positive-minded gifts. She bought me my first computer, but also bought me lots of books, instruments, outdoor play implements, etc. Anything that wasn't "brain junk" she'd buy for me basically whenever she could.
I will also say that I would've never done any of this had my parents tried to push me into it. That's where the free learning comes in. Prior to 4th grade I brought up being vaguely interested in school band, the next week my grandmother set up a clarinet rental and had the forms ready to go for me to join. When I wanted to quit, she said no problem, ended the rental, was happy to wait and see where I'd go next.
> 2. In what areas will science have the potentially greatest impact for the benefit of humanity in 20 years? What are the biggest and most challenging problems to solve just over the horizon?
I would echo the sentiment of other commenters and say you're thinking far far too specifically about your child's development. Your daughter is 4. Encourage her to learn and play.
Basically, I think if you're thinking much further ahead than encouraging your child to enjoy learning, exploring and experimenting, you're probably overparenting. Your kid should like you. Your kid should not think you're pushing them in any obvious direction (other than cultivating them as a human). Be open to the idea that your child might be the next Mozart. If your child is actually gifted, allow them to use their gifts in a way they're comfortable and excited about. They're still a child, which means they sometimes want to play and eat candy and be bored.
> might be the next Mozart
Note that both Mozart and Michael Jackson are good case studies of the psychological effects of being pushed hard in a direction of talent.
Note that both Mozart and Michael Jackson are good case studies of the psychological effects of being pushed hard in a direction of talent.
Excellent point. My comment about Mozart was mostly just to convey that being gifted doesn't have to be related to science, and forcing a perceived-gifted child to focus on science could be totally limiting on their actual gifts.
But also, yes, your post matches my exact sentiment, which is to let kids be kids.
But also, yes, your post matches my exact sentiment, which is to let kids be kids.
Short answer: don’t encourage it. Support it where requested.
Don’t encourage, don’t applaud, don’t try to improve it.
Let it grow and develop, allow it to change when it does, to be what it is.
If your child needs your help with it, you’ll know - by their unstoppable requests.
Encouraging or rewarding it is a sure way to kill it. See Alfie Kohn’s Punished by Rewards for tons of research showing how rewards / encouragement kill intrinsic interest.
Don’t encourage, don’t applaud, don’t try to improve it.
Let it grow and develop, allow it to change when it does, to be what it is.
If your child needs your help with it, you’ll know - by their unstoppable requests.
Encouraging or rewarding it is a sure way to kill it. See Alfie Kohn’s Punished by Rewards for tons of research showing how rewards / encouragement kill intrinsic interest.
Was put through the gifted program through my local school system when I was a kid, took the psych test for it, did honors/AP throughout high school, yadda yadda.
Do not pigeonhole your kid. That is the perfect, most direct way to fuck her up mentally into adulthood. My parents wanted me to be a doctor (immigrant parents) and sure enough all the programs were pushing me to subjects I had zero care for. I hated every bit of their push. They later tried I should be a lawyer. After I left home, I haven't spoken to them since. That was about 15 years ago. I wanted to be an engineer doing big things like bridges, skyscrapers or even rockets. They thought that didnt make for a "successful big career". I lost out on going to the colleges I wanted to for this because I didnt have the neccessary extra curricular activities to get in.
The thing with most gifted kids, they're interested in "all the things". I mean it. I went through a month to three long spurts of crazy dives into a topic. Still do actually.
Let your kid be curious. Expose them to the world. Dont narrow them down. They'll do that on their own as they explore the world, which will happen in their late teens at the soonest. Me having decent knowledge in an extremely wide range of topics has been my greatest asset, especially since I went into business for myself. If they become hyper specialized on their own, good, foster that. If they hyper study a topic, then jump to the next, foster that. Guess what, your daughter is a little human, not a fucking cog that society pretends to automatically own so they can solve the world's problems. This gifted child bullshit, I hate using this word but is appropriate, is extremely toxic for people especially when they grow up. Nothing is ever good enough and we feel underperforming at every turn.
Dont do this gifted pigeonholing bullshit to her, for the love of all that is pure and good. Raise her as a human and embrace her interests as they arise. The best you can do is love her and go out of your way to occasionally show her something new of the world.
Do not pigeonhole your kid. That is the perfect, most direct way to fuck her up mentally into adulthood. My parents wanted me to be a doctor (immigrant parents) and sure enough all the programs were pushing me to subjects I had zero care for. I hated every bit of their push. They later tried I should be a lawyer. After I left home, I haven't spoken to them since. That was about 15 years ago. I wanted to be an engineer doing big things like bridges, skyscrapers or even rockets. They thought that didnt make for a "successful big career". I lost out on going to the colleges I wanted to for this because I didnt have the neccessary extra curricular activities to get in.
The thing with most gifted kids, they're interested in "all the things". I mean it. I went through a month to three long spurts of crazy dives into a topic. Still do actually.
Let your kid be curious. Expose them to the world. Dont narrow them down. They'll do that on their own as they explore the world, which will happen in their late teens at the soonest. Me having decent knowledge in an extremely wide range of topics has been my greatest asset, especially since I went into business for myself. If they become hyper specialized on their own, good, foster that. If they hyper study a topic, then jump to the next, foster that. Guess what, your daughter is a little human, not a fucking cog that society pretends to automatically own so they can solve the world's problems. This gifted child bullshit, I hate using this word but is appropriate, is extremely toxic for people especially when they grow up. Nothing is ever good enough and we feel underperforming at every turn.
Dont do this gifted pigeonholing bullshit to her, for the love of all that is pure and good. Raise her as a human and embrace her interests as they arise. The best you can do is love her and go out of your way to occasionally show her something new of the world.
Greatest positive influence: teachers who let me skip class in elementary school (basically built and ran the school's website, handled any software issues etc.), and then teachers/admins who allowed me to opt out of math class in favor of independent study math from 7th-12th grade. Huge help in math competitions, getting a full scholarship to Caltech etc.
Book Recommendations: Free to Learn, and Children above 180 IQ, Stanford-Binet, by Leta Stetter Hollingworth
The former recommends letting children chart their own course, the latter suggests profoundly gifted children (really anyone ~160+) opt out of middle school and study something orthogonal then resume high school with their age group. (Elementary school and a good high school provide important socialization and can generally avoid being too boring; while middle school teaches nothing a bright child needs to learn, and is usually a dead-zone as far as extracurriculars or advanced coursework).
I'd avoid planting any ideas, and just let the child run with whatever interests her.
Book Recommendations: Free to Learn, and Children above 180 IQ, Stanford-Binet, by Leta Stetter Hollingworth
The former recommends letting children chart their own course, the latter suggests profoundly gifted children (really anyone ~160+) opt out of middle school and study something orthogonal then resume high school with their age group. (Elementary school and a good high school provide important socialization and can generally avoid being too boring; while middle school teaches nothing a bright child needs to learn, and is usually a dead-zone as far as extracurriculars or advanced coursework).
I'd avoid planting any ideas, and just let the child run with whatever interests her.
While I'm skeptical of pushing kids in a direction, the sentiment that programming is taking over the other sciences and the economy, and machine learning is taking over programming, is basically correct.
It's something smart kids will pickup on their own, and worth encouraging her to pursue deep, complex projects she finds interesting.
As a general approach, letting her spend vast amounts of time going deep in whatever interests her, while even taking a year or two away from school, or defocusing on school until the final few years, is the right one. (The greatest waste of giftedness is ekeing out a perfect GPA instead of excelling at things that have no inherent ceiling.)
It's something smart kids will pickup on their own, and worth encouraging her to pursue deep, complex projects she finds interesting.
As a general approach, letting her spend vast amounts of time going deep in whatever interests her, while even taking a year or two away from school, or defocusing on school until the final few years, is the right one. (The greatest waste of giftedness is ekeing out a perfect GPA instead of excelling at things that have no inherent ceiling.)
1. Being self-motivated the best thing is to keep exposing her to information to find wonder and play creatively. Whatever she latches onto, try to find extra depth on each topic as far as she is is interested in exploring.
2. Don't try to connect what she is learning or interested in with outcomes. That's just setting her up to be designing 'faster horses'. Let her discover as many tools and techniques and lateral thinking to handle any sort of puzzle/problem.
3. Expose her to music and learn to play any instrument of her choosing. Improvisation is a powerful complement.
Besides music find other forms of creative expression. Nowadays that might be Minecraft or simulation games. Some real-world physical forms would be a good inclusion, whether that's bicycle maintenance, RC flight, 3D printing, etc.
2. Don't try to connect what she is learning or interested in with outcomes. That's just setting her up to be designing 'faster horses'. Let her discover as many tools and techniques and lateral thinking to handle any sort of puzzle/problem.
3. Expose her to music and learn to play any instrument of her choosing. Improvisation is a powerful complement.
Besides music find other forms of creative expression. Nowadays that might be Minecraft or simulation games. Some real-world physical forms would be a good inclusion, whether that's bicycle maintenance, RC flight, 3D printing, etc.
Teaching her how to program a computer is basically like giving her an infinite lego set. She can keep building new and interesting things as her interests change over time.
I cannot overstate how impactful learning how to program was in my life. When I learned how to read, I could learn about anything that interested me. When I learned how to program, I could build anything that interested me: a website, a physics simulation, plot data I had collected.
There are many resources for little kids to get started with the concepts, and as she grows older she can do things like create Jupyter notebooks for her projects, post about them, etc. The possibilities are endless.
I cannot overstate how impactful learning how to program was in my life. When I learned how to read, I could learn about anything that interested me. When I learned how to program, I could build anything that interested me: a website, a physics simulation, plot data I had collected.
There are many resources for little kids to get started with the concepts, and as she grows older she can do things like create Jupyter notebooks for her projects, post about them, etc. The possibilities are endless.
1a. No, but there was a single attitude. Something along the lines of :
"Science is fun and the kind of fun I love. It's hard, but learning is worth it. The mistakes we make along the way are just as important as the successes, if not more important. There's no barriers to Science other than doing the work and anyone can do the work. Literally anyone, even you. Science is more fun when more people do it. Ask questions, lots of questions."
"Science is fun and the kind of fun I love. It's hard, but learning is worth it. The mistakes we make along the way are just as important as the successes, if not more important. There's no barriers to Science other than doing the work and anyone can do the work. Literally anyone, even you. Science is more fun when more people do it. Ask questions, lots of questions."
"Primary Education of the Camiroi" by R.A. Lafferty has a fun, fictional curriculum, http://uncabob.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-primary-education-of...
"Profession" by Asimov (1950) remains a definitive story on systems and talent-beyond-ontology, https://www.abelard.org/asimov.php
University course on Art and Geometry/Math, with a bibliography that could lead to ideas for early education, https://math.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/
Offline toys/tools that encourage creative expression and working purely from memory (lower latency than all devices), using thousand-year old techniques (e.g. memory palace).
Social games which involve temporary loss of a sense or range of motion, to encourage communication and empathy with others of different capabilities.
Five year paper journal/scrapbook which co-locates experiences from the same dates in multiple years. Helps with awareness of growth and seasonal patterns.
Tech & humanity in 20 years? There are competing visions for the definition of human. Ancient and timeless skills help with surfing unpredictable waves of opportunities and threats, bending emerging tech to personal visions of humanity. Two of many competing strands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD6hyGXRcgk & https://wrenchinthegears.com. The 2011 TV series "Eureka" has several storylines with STEM families, as most of the town qualifies as gifted, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_(American_TV_series).
If all humans are flawed and all systems reflect the consciousness of their creators, then a necessary human skill is navigating around the flaws of human creations. Sometimes called "hacking" :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fravia
"Profession" by Asimov (1950) remains a definitive story on systems and talent-beyond-ontology, https://www.abelard.org/asimov.php
University course on Art and Geometry/Math, with a bibliography that could lead to ideas for early education, https://math.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.geometry/
Offline toys/tools that encourage creative expression and working purely from memory (lower latency than all devices), using thousand-year old techniques (e.g. memory palace).
Social games which involve temporary loss of a sense or range of motion, to encourage communication and empathy with others of different capabilities.
Five year paper journal/scrapbook which co-locates experiences from the same dates in multiple years. Helps with awareness of growth and seasonal patterns.
Tech & humanity in 20 years? There are competing visions for the definition of human. Ancient and timeless skills help with surfing unpredictable waves of opportunities and threats, bending emerging tech to personal visions of humanity. Two of many competing strands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD6hyGXRcgk & https://wrenchinthegears.com. The 2011 TV series "Eureka" has several storylines with STEM families, as most of the town qualifies as gifted, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eureka_(American_TV_series).
If all humans are flawed and all systems reflect the consciousness of their creators, then a necessary human skill is navigating around the flaws of human creations. Sometimes called "hacking" :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fravia
We are all imbued with the light of consciousness. It allows us to shine in so many different ways. With this stem supremacy, you are narrowing the path before the journey has even begun.
I'd recommend pets, learning how to care for them, and doing it well.
I'd recommend pets, learning how to care for them, and doing it well.
This is all so helpful, thank you.
I think I gave the wrong impression with question 2, but I still appreciate the feedback.
I think I gave the wrong impression with question 2, but I still appreciate the feedback.
> 1. If you were a gifted child, what were the activities, games, questions, or ideas that you most loved, or that ignited and really engaged your interest in science and technology?
LEGO. I also learned to read before school age, and enjoyed reading popular science books.
> 1a. Was there any one person who had a disproportionately positive impact on your STEM education, and if so, why and how?
Adult people who were willing to discuss math seriously with me. I was lucky, there was more than one.
To be more precise, the rare combination is finding an adult who is (1) willing to talk to a child, and (2) actually understands math. Just being nice is not enough, if the child already knows that the answers are wrong. Seriously, saying "I don't know" is much better than giving a bullshit answer. If you don't know math, and don't know anyone who does, then maybe a local library contains a useful book. Actually, these days you have Khan Academy, which can guide your child in math across the elementary and high school, highly recommended.
> 2. In what areas will science have the potentially greatest impact for the benefit of humanity in 20 years? What are the biggest and most challenging problems to solve just over the horizon?
Machine learning, biotechnology? But if you have a four years old child, start with building solid foundations of math, programming, physics, chemistry, biology. With good foundations, you can later become good at the latest hype, so you don't need to make a good prediction 20 years in advance.
Sorry, you wanted more specific. But I can't give you a specific answer for 20 years in the future, I am not a prophet. And focusing on the hype before knowing the fundamentals feels wrong to me: it reminds me about all those people who have "their own opinion about theory of relativity and quantum physics" while making elementary mistakes about high-school physics. Also, the more fresh research, the more likely it is to be wrong; the scientific ideas become more reliable as they survive a few years.
> My four year old daughter is exceptionally gifted (generally), and profoundly so with visual-spatial intelligence and math.
You will probably meet a lot of IQ denialists; it is a quite mainstream belief. But it does not matter. The important thing is to allow your daughter to learn at her own speed. (It would be great if all kids got this chance, whether gifted or not. But the school system requires the child to adapt to the speed of curriculum, not the other way round.) Just not slowing her down will already make a difference. (I am surprised to meet many parents who prevent their kids from learning things the kids are interested in, to avoid possible "problems at school" later. This makes me quite sad how the educational system became a brake on knowledge.) Give her the resources, give her the attention when she is curious. Keep it fun. There are two ways to ruin fun: one is pushing children forward faster than is comfortable for them (which changes the fun into a chore), the other is to ignore the progress they made (which sends a signal that doing math is somehow socially inappropriate).
> We want to foster an environment that constantly challenges her, no matter where her interests lead (whether STEM or something else).
For starters, Khan Academy and books will do great. At some later age, it would be useful to find other kids sharing the same interest. (Here you don't need to consider giftedness explicitly; other kids who e.g. do math olympiad will most likely be similar.) Gifted kids who can't find other gifted kids sometimes become friends with older kids instead. (This is another horrible thing about our school system that it filters your social environment strictly by biological age, thus preventing this coping mechanism.)
LEGO. I also learned to read before school age, and enjoyed reading popular science books.
> 1a. Was there any one person who had a disproportionately positive impact on your STEM education, and if so, why and how?
Adult people who were willing to discuss math seriously with me. I was lucky, there was more than one.
To be more precise, the rare combination is finding an adult who is (1) willing to talk to a child, and (2) actually understands math. Just being nice is not enough, if the child already knows that the answers are wrong. Seriously, saying "I don't know" is much better than giving a bullshit answer. If you don't know math, and don't know anyone who does, then maybe a local library contains a useful book. Actually, these days you have Khan Academy, which can guide your child in math across the elementary and high school, highly recommended.
> 2. In what areas will science have the potentially greatest impact for the benefit of humanity in 20 years? What are the biggest and most challenging problems to solve just over the horizon?
Machine learning, biotechnology? But if you have a four years old child, start with building solid foundations of math, programming, physics, chemistry, biology. With good foundations, you can later become good at the latest hype, so you don't need to make a good prediction 20 years in advance.
Sorry, you wanted more specific. But I can't give you a specific answer for 20 years in the future, I am not a prophet. And focusing on the hype before knowing the fundamentals feels wrong to me: it reminds me about all those people who have "their own opinion about theory of relativity and quantum physics" while making elementary mistakes about high-school physics. Also, the more fresh research, the more likely it is to be wrong; the scientific ideas become more reliable as they survive a few years.
> My four year old daughter is exceptionally gifted (generally), and profoundly so with visual-spatial intelligence and math.
You will probably meet a lot of IQ denialists; it is a quite mainstream belief. But it does not matter. The important thing is to allow your daughter to learn at her own speed. (It would be great if all kids got this chance, whether gifted or not. But the school system requires the child to adapt to the speed of curriculum, not the other way round.) Just not slowing her down will already make a difference. (I am surprised to meet many parents who prevent their kids from learning things the kids are interested in, to avoid possible "problems at school" later. This makes me quite sad how the educational system became a brake on knowledge.) Give her the resources, give her the attention when she is curious. Keep it fun. There are two ways to ruin fun: one is pushing children forward faster than is comfortable for them (which changes the fun into a chore), the other is to ignore the progress they made (which sends a signal that doing math is somehow socially inappropriate).
> We want to foster an environment that constantly challenges her, no matter where her interests lead (whether STEM or something else).
For starters, Khan Academy and books will do great. At some later age, it would be useful to find other kids sharing the same interest. (Here you don't need to consider giftedness explicitly; other kids who e.g. do math olympiad will most likely be similar.) Gifted kids who can't find other gifted kids sometimes become friends with older kids instead. (This is another horrible thing about our school system that it filters your social environment strictly by biological age, thus preventing this coping mechanism.)
Alice in Wonderland
Gulliver's Travels
Gulliver's Travels
1. Acess at home to high school level of chemistry and physics textbooks my mom used when she was in school. Access to interesting SF books, especially short stories antologies as they usually provide best ideas/words ratio. Access to books about DIY and popular, home practical science targeted at children and teenagers. Access to encyclopedias general and topical (some illustrated). Access to 8-bit computer with user manual that taught BASIC. Access to books of logic puzzles. Access to tools and participation in DIY home projects of my granfather that involved wood, thin sheet metal, nails, screws and soldering. Access to things tondismantle and see what makes them tick. Mostly but not exclusively toys. Access to magazines about popular science, DIY, and computer programming addressed at least partially to kids and teenagers. Every monthly issue was an event.
No specific questions or games, and mostly ideas comming from SF and science.
Basically effortless access to colorful, pretty, printed materials about science and DIY and knowledge in general was a key thing for me.
1a. My DIY capable gradfather that let me participate in his DIY projects and repairs. My mother that provided me with all the books and magazines and computer.
2. No idea. Maybe renewables, energy grid balancing, energy storage and transfer and financially beneficial utilizing of excess energy. Maybe how to efficiently house, feed, police and develop and assimilate millions of climate refugees?
Also I was rarely if ever described as gifted or praised even when taking part in school science competitions. I've just seen for myself that other kids are dumber and know less and met kids smarter than me in some aspects only in highschool and possibly later.
So if I have a recomendation for you, ensure variety of engaging materials on science and technology and some SF so she can dream and start doing a bit of easy DIY projects (diy kits) yourself just for fun and let her participate. And keep shush about the gifted label. And be happy for her when she starts figuring stuff faster than you.
Focus more on deserving her love and she'll probably have no trouble keeping herself and her parents afloat before she's 40.
If you want her to change the world, drop that ambition. Being a genius is a baseline for even trying that and luck of being at the right place at the right time and with the right people is the bulk of it.
Also, can't go wrong with LEGOs.
I heard that it's better to praise the work that was put in than some innate cleverness of the child because then when the child encounters a hard problem, she doesn't have identity crisis ("maybe I'm not smart?") and instead just thinks that she needs to put in more effort which is usually more healthy and fruitful conclusion.
Another thing comming from my formative experiences is, you should crush her in some rules based game. Like checkers. This will show her that objective reality exists. When she can see for herself that according to the rules she internalized she lost, and no amount of crying, anger and pleading can change that she'll understand that not everything can be achieved by manipulating people. Some adults never achieve that understanding and can be great in sales and politics but are rarely any good with any technical work where physical reality is the judge.
Then again maybe she can learn that through DIY and my grandma crushing 5 year old me in checkers was cruel and unnecessary. ;-)
I think in general properly developing emotional responses of a child is way more important than any focused nurturing of any gift they might have.
No specific questions or games, and mostly ideas comming from SF and science.
Basically effortless access to colorful, pretty, printed materials about science and DIY and knowledge in general was a key thing for me.
1a. My DIY capable gradfather that let me participate in his DIY projects and repairs. My mother that provided me with all the books and magazines and computer.
2. No idea. Maybe renewables, energy grid balancing, energy storage and transfer and financially beneficial utilizing of excess energy. Maybe how to efficiently house, feed, police and develop and assimilate millions of climate refugees?
Also I was rarely if ever described as gifted or praised even when taking part in school science competitions. I've just seen for myself that other kids are dumber and know less and met kids smarter than me in some aspects only in highschool and possibly later.
So if I have a recomendation for you, ensure variety of engaging materials on science and technology and some SF so she can dream and start doing a bit of easy DIY projects (diy kits) yourself just for fun and let her participate. And keep shush about the gifted label. And be happy for her when she starts figuring stuff faster than you.
Focus more on deserving her love and she'll probably have no trouble keeping herself and her parents afloat before she's 40.
If you want her to change the world, drop that ambition. Being a genius is a baseline for even trying that and luck of being at the right place at the right time and with the right people is the bulk of it.
Also, can't go wrong with LEGOs.
I heard that it's better to praise the work that was put in than some innate cleverness of the child because then when the child encounters a hard problem, she doesn't have identity crisis ("maybe I'm not smart?") and instead just thinks that she needs to put in more effort which is usually more healthy and fruitful conclusion.
Another thing comming from my formative experiences is, you should crush her in some rules based game. Like checkers. This will show her that objective reality exists. When she can see for herself that according to the rules she internalized she lost, and no amount of crying, anger and pleading can change that she'll understand that not everything can be achieved by manipulating people. Some adults never achieve that understanding and can be great in sales and politics but are rarely any good with any technical work where physical reality is the judge.
Then again maybe she can learn that through DIY and my grandma crushing 5 year old me in checkers was cruel and unnecessary. ;-)
I think in general properly developing emotional responses of a child is way more important than any focused nurturing of any gift they might have.
I've never posted on HN, but now I am here awkwardly asking for good advice and ideas on a personal matter.
My four year old daughter is exceptionally gifted (generally), and profoundly so with visual-spatial intelligence and math. My wife and I, who are just regular people with no technical education or background, finally had this confirmed by a psychologist. She is a marvel.
My questions for HN:
1. If you were a gifted child, what were the activities, games, questions, or ideas that you most loved, or that ignited and really engaged your interest in science and technology?
1a. Was there any one person who had a disproportionately positive impact on your STEM education, and if so, why and how?
2. In what areas will science have the potentially greatest impact for the benefit of humanity in 20 years? What are the biggest and most challenging problems to solve just over the horizon?
We want to foster an environment that constantly challenges her, no matter where her interests lead (whether STEM or something else). This is not a matter of us pushing her, she is astonishingly self-motivated, and we just need to be supportive and provide thoughtful guidance.
Regarding #2, I'm hoping for some specifics, not "climate change adaptation" or "colonizing Mars" - more like, what are the most challenging problems involved in those broader topics?
She is the kind of kid that will ask her own questions and let them lead her interests. But I do want to plant the seeds of big, challenging ideas early on, instill wonder, and let her grow into them if and when she's ready.