Squeezebox Keyboard(peterlyons.com)
peterlyons.com
Squeezebox Keyboard
https://peterlyons.com/problog/2021/04/squeezebox-keyboard/
117 comments
There is a zero change I will ever want something like this, leave alone need it, but if there's an HN submission worthy of an instant upvote, that's the one :)
Now that you've said this, you're guaranteed to start craving it a few weeks or months later. ;p
haha, that's what I thought when I saw it pop up in my twitter feed :)
As an ergonomic keyboard, it reminds me the dear old Kinesis keyboards. [1] I've met two people who use them. One tells it's a big leap from the classic keyboards and that the ergonomic keyboards are far more convenient (when you got used to them). The other person is not as excited about it. In accordance with his experience, the Kinesis feels different, but the performance for him is the same.
I think when it comes to keyboards and layouts, the QWERTY type have become a user habit that is really hard to change. Yes, Dvorak might be easier to type, but as long as it is not common, software developers don't pay attention to such a low demand and you have get around all the shortcuts issues that you face. E.g. Ctrl + x/c/v are no longer in a row as well as the Vim-like "hjkl". And you have to put extra effort to maintain this matching.
Like the Dvorak layout, the Squeezebox Keyboard design is non-standard and I think a casual user would face challenges trying to adapt the keyboard to day-to-day tasks.
Nonetheless, I do like the concept of the Squeezebox Keyboard.
https://www.amazon.com/Kinesis-Advantage2-Ergonomic-Keyboard...
I think when it comes to keyboards and layouts, the QWERTY type have become a user habit that is really hard to change. Yes, Dvorak might be easier to type, but as long as it is not common, software developers don't pay attention to such a low demand and you have get around all the shortcuts issues that you face. E.g. Ctrl + x/c/v are no longer in a row as well as the Vim-like "hjkl". And you have to put extra effort to maintain this matching.
Like the Dvorak layout, the Squeezebox Keyboard design is non-standard and I think a casual user would face challenges trying to adapt the keyboard to day-to-day tasks.
Nonetheless, I do like the concept of the Squeezebox Keyboard.
https://www.amazon.com/Kinesis-Advantage2-Ergonomic-Keyboard...
I use an Advantage 2 and love it. I really like the Squeezebox, I'd love to try it!
> the performance for him is the same
Does he mean for RSI prevention? Because if you're using an ergonomic keyboard for anything else, it seems unlikely you'll get much benefit from one. Being able to remap keys and record macros is handy, but other than some remaps for comfort, I don't use that feature really. I do also use the foot pedals though (mainly for shift, although I don't always use it). Typing "performance" isn't thaat much better than other keyboards, but typing "comfort" is a lot better and I hate using other keyboards now.
> I think when it comes to keyboards and layouts
Again, for comfort (not speed), I switched to Colemak about 7 years ago and I feel it was a very good decision for me. Typing is super comfortable and OS support is good (OS X and Linux have support out of the box, windows does require the layout to be installed but its easy to do).
> Ctrl + x/c/v are no longer in a row
Colemak was designed for this in mind. It keeps all the very commonly used shortcut keys in the qwerty positions: wqazxcv are all unmoved. Yes, vim hjkl is different but tbh, I got used to it quite quickly and also when using the Kinesis, I have foot pedal + (qwerty) ijkl (ie a wasd layout but on the right hand) mapped to them for even more convenience. Additionally, the cursor keys are in comfortable reach on the Kinesis Advantage2 too. I leave the keycaps in qwerty layout, since I don't look at them anyway and sometimes its convenient to be able to see what a key would be in qwerty (like telling you the ijkl keys just now, in colmak that's unei)
> I think a casual user would face challenges trying to adapt the keyboard to day-to-day tasks
Agreed, I don't think these alternative keyboards or layouts make any sense for a casual user. For a heavy typist though, I think its very worthwhile, if only to protect your hands from injury and strain.
As bsdubernerd mentioned, my favourite features of the advantage (roughly in order) are: thumb button clusters, columnar layout, arched keys, mechanical keys, foot pedal, customisability.
> the performance for him is the same
Does he mean for RSI prevention? Because if you're using an ergonomic keyboard for anything else, it seems unlikely you'll get much benefit from one. Being able to remap keys and record macros is handy, but other than some remaps for comfort, I don't use that feature really. I do also use the foot pedals though (mainly for shift, although I don't always use it). Typing "performance" isn't thaat much better than other keyboards, but typing "comfort" is a lot better and I hate using other keyboards now.
> I think when it comes to keyboards and layouts
Again, for comfort (not speed), I switched to Colemak about 7 years ago and I feel it was a very good decision for me. Typing is super comfortable and OS support is good (OS X and Linux have support out of the box, windows does require the layout to be installed but its easy to do).
> Ctrl + x/c/v are no longer in a row
Colemak was designed for this in mind. It keeps all the very commonly used shortcut keys in the qwerty positions: wqazxcv are all unmoved. Yes, vim hjkl is different but tbh, I got used to it quite quickly and also when using the Kinesis, I have foot pedal + (qwerty) ijkl (ie a wasd layout but on the right hand) mapped to them for even more convenience. Additionally, the cursor keys are in comfortable reach on the Kinesis Advantage2 too. I leave the keycaps in qwerty layout, since I don't look at them anyway and sometimes its convenient to be able to see what a key would be in qwerty (like telling you the ijkl keys just now, in colmak that's unei)
> I think a casual user would face challenges trying to adapt the keyboard to day-to-day tasks
Agreed, I don't think these alternative keyboards or layouts make any sense for a casual user. For a heavy typist though, I think its very worthwhile, if only to protect your hands from injury and strain.
As bsdubernerd mentioned, my favourite features of the advantage (roughly in order) are: thumb button clusters, columnar layout, arched keys, mechanical keys, foot pedal, customisability.
It's a tough one... do you bow to convention or do you forge a new path.
I remember for years thinking that conventions on motorcycles SUCKED. One thing that bothered me was that using the back brake on a motorcycle required your foot, which seemed to me like trying to do surgery with a mallet. The gearshift was to a lesser degree inaccurate with your foot. Thing is, every motorcycle follows the convention, so you would have to figure out your own system, then modify every motorcycle you used to use it.
I was heartened when I heard of a pro roadracer who use a thumb-brake for the rear brake. :)
I remember for years thinking that conventions on motorcycles SUCKED. One thing that bothered me was that using the back brake on a motorcycle required your foot, which seemed to me like trying to do surgery with a mallet. The gearshift was to a lesser degree inaccurate with your foot. Thing is, every motorcycle follows the convention, so you would have to figure out your own system, then modify every motorcycle you used to use it.
I was heartened when I heard of a pro roadracer who use a thumb-brake for the rear brake. :)
Mick Doohan, world champion multiple times broke his ankle while racing. They figured out a thumb operated rear brake for him.
Now, while not exactly common in use, it is a commonly accepted option in racing. Current moto2 championship leader has a rear brake lever on the handlebar.
I imagine at the motogp level there might be biomechanical advantages to a hand lever but I'm no racer so I have never really investigated.
"motorcycle thumb brake kit" gets a few hits to buy your own to fit to your bike if you wish.
Now, while not exactly common in use, it is a commonly accepted option in racing. Current moto2 championship leader has a rear brake lever on the handlebar.
I imagine at the motogp level there might be biomechanical advantages to a hand lever but I'm no racer so I have never really investigated.
"motorcycle thumb brake kit" gets a few hits to buy your own to fit to your bike if you wish.
Just off the top of my head, but having the option to shift your bodyweight using your legs is quite a big advantage. At MotoGP leved it's either they can exchange that advantage with something else or it's so advantageous everybody will use that.
It makes more sense to me to have the back break on the right foot, in normal (not racing) riding you brake way more with the front anyway, most people are right handed to having the make things stop lever be on the dominant hand makes sense.
But it is just a convention, Other parts of the world used different conventions until Japanese bikes exploded onto the market and we standardised on the current status quo.
But it is just a convention, Other parts of the world used different conventions until Japanese bikes exploded onto the market and we standardised on the current status quo.
I love my Kinesis. Could never switch back.
I did have a Kinesis Advantage, but I did not use it that much. Very comfortable, but personally learning to touch type on Dvorak is the big difference for me. I can't say it's better than Qwerty. But it's so hard for me to break my habit of looking at the keyboard to 'cheat'. If only there's a QMK enabled, Microsoft-sculpt like keyboard, bonus would be TKL/split, and mechanical switches.
I've been using the advantage pro (first model) for more than a decade after using (and trying) a ton of other keyboards, including popular choices like the microsoft natural line, some oddballs like the ergomagic (now defunct), split-flat (goldtouch go!) and so on...
For my personal preference the advantage is the best. I've trained both with dvorak and querty, and honestly didn't see any significant difference in either. For practical purposes I'm sticking with qwerty.
What makes the difference is:
- Columnar layout. Typing on a staggered layout just feels very wrong after getting used to a simple columnar layout. You don't need to get fancy with the rest: this is the #1 improvement for me.
- Thumb cluster for modifiers. This completely changes the dynamic of how shortcuts are executed.
- Good palm rest and key arching. The position overall feels just right when either hovering over the keyboard OR resting on it. Sadly, this result in a big keyboard that takes a ton of space.
What I don't like about it:
- Very bad position for ESC and overall position and switches for the Fn keys. I would have done another row just above instead of their layout. - Bad choices for some key positions (I'd move shifts to the thumb cluster and move away home/esc, INS is unusable, etc). Overall the kinesis' choice is to allow easier switchover from a regular qwerty keyboard so I do at least get the reasoning for the layout. - Too tall on the desk. I wished they would shave 3-4cm in height just by removing the empty space inside.
It's actually an easy keyboard to pick-up and start to use. Looks daunting, but most people I've challenged to try can get by after a few minutes thanks to the familiar qwerty layout.
To remain on topic, I really like the squeezebox on principle. There are some very interesting prototypes shown in the page (the vertical layout is something I'd love to physically try).
I do agree with other commenters that some finger movement is actually good, for the same reason is not healthy to stick your hand on the palmrest while typing.
There are not enough keys IMHO. I've contemplated multiple times to 3d-print myself a kinesis clone and/or an ergodox-alike, but I'd probably go for 5 rows and 6 columns per cluster at least in order to have the Fn keys as a _part_ of the cluster.
You can physically ignore extra keys in such a layout. One extra column on the sides or top row makes no difference if you don't use the key often, so you might just as well have the extra convenience available.
Clearly, the same is not true in a design like the squeezebox. And I don't want to criticize the squeezebox for this. I greatly believe different people might like different physical approaches to typing.
For my personal preference the advantage is the best. I've trained both with dvorak and querty, and honestly didn't see any significant difference in either. For practical purposes I'm sticking with qwerty.
What makes the difference is:
- Columnar layout. Typing on a staggered layout just feels very wrong after getting used to a simple columnar layout. You don't need to get fancy with the rest: this is the #1 improvement for me.
- Thumb cluster for modifiers. This completely changes the dynamic of how shortcuts are executed.
- Good palm rest and key arching. The position overall feels just right when either hovering over the keyboard OR resting on it. Sadly, this result in a big keyboard that takes a ton of space.
What I don't like about it:
- Very bad position for ESC and overall position and switches for the Fn keys. I would have done another row just above instead of their layout. - Bad choices for some key positions (I'd move shifts to the thumb cluster and move away home/esc, INS is unusable, etc). Overall the kinesis' choice is to allow easier switchover from a regular qwerty keyboard so I do at least get the reasoning for the layout. - Too tall on the desk. I wished they would shave 3-4cm in height just by removing the empty space inside.
It's actually an easy keyboard to pick-up and start to use. Looks daunting, but most people I've challenged to try can get by after a few minutes thanks to the familiar qwerty layout.
To remain on topic, I really like the squeezebox on principle. There are some very interesting prototypes shown in the page (the vertical layout is something I'd love to physically try).
I do agree with other commenters that some finger movement is actually good, for the same reason is not healthy to stick your hand on the palmrest while typing.
There are not enough keys IMHO. I've contemplated multiple times to 3d-print myself a kinesis clone and/or an ergodox-alike, but I'd probably go for 5 rows and 6 columns per cluster at least in order to have the Fn keys as a _part_ of the cluster.
You can physically ignore extra keys in such a layout. One extra column on the sides or top row makes no difference if you don't use the key often, so you might just as well have the extra convenience available.
Clearly, the same is not true in a design like the squeezebox. And I don't want to criticize the squeezebox for this. I greatly believe different people might like different physical approaches to typing.
Regarding the things you don't like, my solution was to get the foot pedals. I have the three pedal one and use one pedal as FnShift and another for shift. I've then also mapped some common things like ESC to the Fn layer, so I can press it with ease by hitting the FnShift with my foot.
Also, for when I don't feel like using the foot pedal, I've moved some keys slightly: CapsLock to Tab, Tab to left shift and Left Shift to FnShift.
When I started using the keyboard, I also mapped lots of common things that I found awkward to the Fn layer, especially the left side that's completely unused. But as I got used to the keyboard, I've sound I don't really use them anymore and don't actually remember what I mapped to the layer, only really using my ESC mapping and the default numpad mapping.
Also, for when I don't feel like using the foot pedal, I've moved some keys slightly: CapsLock to Tab, Tab to left shift and Left Shift to FnShift.
When I started using the keyboard, I also mapped lots of common things that I found awkward to the Fn layer, especially the left side that's completely unused. But as I got used to the keyboard, I've sound I don't really use them anymore and don't actually remember what I mapped to the layer, only really using my ESC mapping and the default numpad mapping.
I also have the three pedals! I couldn't get used to use them regularly as much as I wanted and I some point I simply stopped.
My mapping was/is ESC, Ctrl and Shift. Never thought of using a FnSwitch, that's actually a great idea
My mapping was/is ESC, Ctrl and Shift. Never thought of using a FnSwitch, that's actually a great idea
It took a little bit of getting used to, but once I did, its been great. I don't always use it, sometimes I'm just not sitting straight at my desk and its seems like effort, but when I'm typing heavily or coding, I typically do. It makes typing very pleasant.
I didn't use it to toggle Fn, but to shift it (just in case it wasn't obvious), since keeping my foot on it is really easy and letting go is the quickest way to switch back.
I didn't use it to toggle Fn, but to shift it (just in case it wasn't obvious), since keeping my foot on it is really easy and letting go is the quickest way to switch back.
Thanks for sharing it!
> INS is unusable
What about Ctrl+Insert and Shift+Insert? Or Ctrl+Shift+C and Ctrl+Shift+V can handle all the cases?
> INS is unusable
What about Ctrl+Insert and Shift+Insert? Or Ctrl+Shift+C and Ctrl+Shift+V can handle all the cases?
Yes. The [Ctrl|alt]+Shift actually feels more comfortable than a regular keyboard, since it's very easy to stretch the pinky and the thumb, and still have 3 fingers available (you can reach any other key). The same is true in both sections of the keyboard. Learning to use both shift and ctrl keys (depending on which key comes next) is something that takes some getting used to, but feels very natural.
The problem I have with INS is due to it's position, requiring generally the ring finger to overflex to reach it, making it unbalanced to use compared to other keys.
The problem I have with INS is due to it's position, requiring generally the ring finger to overflex to reach it, making it unbalanced to use compared to other keys.
Darn, I was hoping it would be an actual squeezebox (accordion).
I've been fooling around with making a MIDI input device sort of like an acccordion [1], but I'm still figuring out what I might do for expression instead of a bellows.
[1] https://github.com/skybrian/accordionsynth
I've been fooling around with making a MIDI input device sort of like an acccordion [1], but I'm still figuring out what I might do for expression instead of a bellows.
[1] https://github.com/skybrian/accordionsynth
I thought it might be using a Logitech Squeezebox[0].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeezebox_(network_music_play...
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeezebox_(network_music_play...
I've been planning on making an electric concertina for years. For bellows options I've considered a fader in a fake bellows, using an actual bellows with an airflow sensor, some sort of load cell sensor. Not sure what I'll use when I actually get around to it
Reminds me of mixtela's MIDI breath controller [1], they do some crazy stuff over MIDI.
[1] https://youtu.be/oE-uB1Vw40w
[1] https://youtu.be/oE-uB1Vw40w
Seems to me that a bellows combined with a pressure sensor would be a pretty good fit for the project. You could use the pressure sensor output fairly directly for synthesis, though you might want to filter it a smidge to make it respond smoothly.
If you’re really looking to minimize hand movement and type fast while doing it, perhaps a better option would be steno keyboards (http://www.openstenoproject.org/) where entire words are produced by specific chords. It’s definitely learning a new way of typing, but the keyboard showcased in the article here also looks alien enough (apparently each finger has a set of letters assigned to it and one types by moving each finger in a particular direction to produce a single letter) that the learning curve is probably substantial as well.
The Dutch Velotype https://www.velotype.com/en/homepage-eng/ / Veyboard http://www.veyboard.nl/en_main.html design seems to be a slightly more general-purpose version of the same chording idea. Classical steno is based on quickly producing a cryptic stream of personal abbreviations then manually patching it up into a proper text later; though ofc computers can now assist with the second part, and it seems that now some people are using steno boards (or steno layouts/software on normal KBs) as general PC input devices.
There's also the question of how useful steno-like high WPM is. For transcription (using a keyboard) it's obviously somewhere between very useful and essential, depending on the task; but it also requires a lot of skill, so most people will probably never achieve it even given everything else they'd need. (And there's the alternative of using stenomask https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenomask -style dictation and/or computerised text-to-speech.) For other things like computer programming or natural-language composition extra speed may not be worth a lot of extra bother. However there are some other things chording could be useful for instead (or as well). It's a fairly obvious way to easily access extra characters if you have an NKRO board: I'm a bit surpried I haven't heard of anyone using chords for mathematical symbols etc. yet. And it's a way to achieve one-handed typing. One-handed chorded typing isn't as fast as two-handed conventional typing, but it offers the opportunity to type with one hand while controlling a mouse with the other, eliminating the delay in switching between mousing and typing. (Though a thumbable touchpad now also offers low switching time. The Matias Half Keyboard/508keyboard https://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/ approach offers one-handed typing with a minimal amount of chording.)
There's also the question of how useful steno-like high WPM is. For transcription (using a keyboard) it's obviously somewhere between very useful and essential, depending on the task; but it also requires a lot of skill, so most people will probably never achieve it even given everything else they'd need. (And there's the alternative of using stenomask https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stenomask -style dictation and/or computerised text-to-speech.) For other things like computer programming or natural-language composition extra speed may not be worth a lot of extra bother. However there are some other things chording could be useful for instead (or as well). It's a fairly obvious way to easily access extra characters if you have an NKRO board: I'm a bit surpried I haven't heard of anyone using chords for mathematical symbols etc. yet. And it's a way to achieve one-handed typing. One-handed chorded typing isn't as fast as two-handed conventional typing, but it offers the opportunity to type with one hand while controlling a mouse with the other, eliminating the delay in switching between mousing and typing. (Though a thumbable touchpad now also offers low switching time. The Matias Half Keyboard/508keyboard https://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/ approach offers one-handed typing with a minimal amount of chording.)
The goal isn't really to type fast with ergonomic designs (as with this design goal). It's really about minimizing RSI's. WPM can be sacrificed to an extent.
Being able to type faster in relation to coding has diminishing returns which is why people don't go over to steno.
Very few of us need to do speech dictation.
Being able to type faster in relation to coding has diminishing returns which is why people don't go over to steno.
Very few of us need to do speech dictation.
Using a steno keyboard also has ergonomic benefits - less movement to produce same amount of output. Court scribes do that all day and RSI would anecdotally seem less prevalent than in IT fields.
ah fair! but man talk about a learning curve.
Looking deeper at "steno for coding" isn't really a space, there's a few videos and articles but that's about it.
I don't think it's viable/real.
Looking deeper at "steno for coding" isn't really a space, there's a few videos and articles but that's about it.
I don't think it's viable/real.
I'm not sure how well it would work for code. You'd have to set it up for each language right?
Variable names will still be in English, I suppose.
Google for “Steno for coding”. It does work :)
Keys activated by pushing fingers out seems like a trap; there's very little strength in that direction.
The idea with these keyboards is that very small movements and amounts of force is needed. The angle of that up key does look a little awkward though. On the Datahand those keys are more or less parallel with the finger itself so they only require a tiny flick.
When I first started typing on the Datahand the most difficult part was getting used to the small movements, I kept hitting the keys by accident. But once you get used to it it's not a problem at all.
When I first started typing on the Datahand the most difficult part was getting used to the small movements, I kept hitting the keys by accident. But once you get used to it it's not a problem at all.
v2105 is nearly done and the top row angle is larger and it's definitely more comfortable. The version in the post kind of ended up that way due to testing from positions other than really at my desk with everything really set up.
Strength training for your fingers.
Might make you good at rock climbing if you're an avid typist.
Might make you good at rock climbing if you're an avid typist.
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Rock climbing finger strength is almost entirely about pulling. Not pulling yourself up, but resisting falling, so that your legs can lift you up. That can involve a lot of squeezing force, especially with the fingertips.
It's not impossible to find a move where you push out. Perhaps you might do it when wedging your hand into a crack. But even then it's pretty rare; you usually count on your arm to wedge your closed fist.
As the GP said, pushing with your fingertips just isn't very strong. So rock climbers rarely do it.
It's not impossible to find a move where you push out. Perhaps you might do it when wedging your hand into a crack. But even then it's pretty rare; you usually count on your arm to wedge your closed fist.
As the GP said, pushing with your fingertips just isn't very strong. So rock climbers rarely do it.
You might be able to find a pushing hold but not pushing with your fingers like that keyboard is doing. Pushing away from your body? maybe. Rotating backward toward the back of your hand? No way.
[deleted]
I thought the same thing! I tried repeatedly straightening-out my fingers without pushing against anything, and it got uncomfortable in less than I half a minute (granted, the movement would be shallower when using this keyboard). I wonder what the risk of RSI is for that range of motion.
It's making my wrist hurt just thinking about it.
Looks tight so maybe it actually requires little movement.
Also, the key switches might require little force; there are no key caps
Also, the key switches might require little force; there are no key caps
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The reason I'll never use an ergonomic/split keyboard is that I never formally learned to type. I can type at a reasonable speed, but I have no "home row" or anything; much less do I keep one hand confined to each side of the keyboard.
I learned by hunting-and-pecking until I could do it with multiple fingers and mostly without looking. This means I can type at 50% speed with one hand, but it also means I would feel extremely uncomfortable if one hand couldn't easily reach across the median, because there's no one particular way that I reach for any given key
I'm curious how common this is?
I learned by hunting-and-pecking until I could do it with multiple fingers and mostly without looking. This means I can type at 50% speed with one hand, but it also means I would feel extremely uncomfortable if one hand couldn't easily reach across the median, because there's no one particular way that I reach for any given key
I'm curious how common this is?
I was like you, was pretty fast and never actually learned to type. About 8 years ago I decided that I use computers so much that I should probably learn. I bought a blank keycap DAS keyboard and forced my self to learn to use it. I also switched to Colemak at that time, since I figured that's the best time to learn.
The first two weeks were painful, then it started to get easier. After about a month, I was up to my previous speed. Nowadays, I have no idea how fast I type, but its super comfortable and I don't ever look at my hands. Typing is super comfortable, plenty fast and I find I get less RSI/strain. I do also use a Kinsesis Advantage keyboard nowadays (I feel it wouldn't be useful without touch-typing though).
From a comfort/strain point of view, I think I made the right decision and regret not doing it sooner. From a typing speed point of view, I think I'm a bit faster, but probably not enough to really care that much, but I haven't checked in a long time.
The first two weeks were painful, then it started to get easier. After about a month, I was up to my previous speed. Nowadays, I have no idea how fast I type, but its super comfortable and I don't ever look at my hands. Typing is super comfortable, plenty fast and I find I get less RSI/strain. I do also use a Kinsesis Advantage keyboard nowadays (I feel it wouldn't be useful without touch-typing though).
From a comfort/strain point of view, I think I made the right decision and regret not doing it sooner. From a typing speed point of view, I think I'm a bit faster, but probably not enough to really care that much, but I haven't checked in a long time.
I was like this too, actually! Decided to learn to touch type (home row, pinky fingers and all that) last month, and I’m almost back up to my normal speed now. I’d say it’s worth it, significantly more comfortable with the potential to be much faster than I was, but it does kinda highlight how the usual QWERTY layout is, uh, really poorly optimized for touch typing
I recently broke my left hand bones, and am absolutely useless using Emacs and other tools, or even typing.
How do HN solve the problem of programming with one hand?
How do HN solve the problem of programming with one hand?
https://www.tapwithus.com/
tapstrap2
If it's an option at all I would take a break from it while recovering.
The Twiddler, maybe? https://twiddler.tekgear.com/
I added foot pedals to the keyboard I built so I could do hold/tap modifiers with my feet. They were command and shift on hold, enter and tab on tap. I imagine you'd want one to be control for emacs. The problem is if you can't type right now I'm not sure you can solder. Sorry friend.
I was actually wondering how often people do this. Did you do this because of some kind of injury or in pursuit of ergonomics / out of curiosity?
If the latter, how would you say this affected your workflow? In terms of typing speed, overall enjoyment, fatigue, or any other metric of productivity or comfort?
If the latter, how would you say this affected your workflow? In terms of typing speed, overall enjoyment, fatigue, or any other metric of productivity or comfort?
I use a foot pedal with my Kinesis Advantage2. I use one pedal for the Advantage's Fn layer and one for shift. I don't use the Fn layer that much (mainly to reach ESC or use the numpad), but of course I use shift a lot. I did it for ergonomics and love it, would never go back. Although sometimes I get lazy and don't use it, especially if I'm tired or just messing around (as opposed to working).
There's a third pedal too but I've never mapped it to anything. Even after a few years, I haven't found anything I wanted to use it for. Maybe something like Control would be good, but I've got that on a thumb cluster button so its not really necessary.
There's a third pedal too but I've never mapped it to anything. Even after a few years, I haven't found anything I wanted to use it for. Maybe something like Control would be good, but I've got that on a thumb cluster button so its not really necessary.
Kind of curiosity. I wanted to give it a shot because the keys in the bottom corner of the keyboard were, I felt, kind of wasted since they are kind of hard to reach. But I don't always keep my feet in the same place so moving my whole foot back into position to hit shift was a little ridiculous. And I ended up with redundant command keys elsewhere on the keyboard that I used way more often. So it wasn't a huge win for me tbqh.
All of that was on a Let's Split[0] which is a split keyboard where each side is a 4x6 grid. I liked it pretty well but I knew I wanted to try a vertical stagger so I changed to an Iris[1]. Since the two halves are connected over I2C I thought I could maybe add a "third half" with a bunch of pedals connected, but I kind of lost interest when I found that just using my hands was so much more pleasant with this keyboard.
[0] https://keeb.io/products/levinson-lets-split-w-led-backlight
[1] https://keeb.io/collections/frontpage/products/iris-keyboard...
All of that was on a Let's Split[0] which is a split keyboard where each side is a 4x6 grid. I liked it pretty well but I knew I wanted to try a vertical stagger so I changed to an Iris[1]. Since the two halves are connected over I2C I thought I could maybe add a "third half" with a bunch of pedals connected, but I kind of lost interest when I found that just using my hands was so much more pleasant with this keyboard.
[0] https://keeb.io/products/levinson-lets-split-w-led-backlight
[1] https://keeb.io/collections/frontpage/products/iris-keyboard...
Not quite the complete solution maybe, but I have been using split keyboard (Sinc, Quefrency) for a long time and have been lately drifting towards making each half somewhat independent by using layers/ modifier keys. I am more focused on left hand, but I thought maybe it could be adapted for the right.
You don’t need a special Keybaord to try it out, can just used Karabiner Elements (OSX) or Autohotkey (Windows). Lmk if you’d want some template scripts for either, happy to share them with you.
I have Caps mapped to Layer-1 which allow me to do CAPS (pinky)+ WSAD (arrows), g(backspace), we (PGup, PGdn), z (enter).
Now I don’t want to reach for number keys from [7] to = and I just map them to CAPS + 123456.
Recently i realized that I often have reach for the letter keys on the second half (y, n for example for notification windows), so I remapped some letters to those.
I am thinking of actually drawing up a layout which will allow me to use the sides interchangeably but still need to figure out which Modifier key to use, that could be as convenient to press with the pinky as Capslock.
For the right side I assume it could be same or, possibly even somewhat easier since, depending on the keyboard you’d have more keys reachable with a pinky to experiment with.
Alternatively, if you dislike this pinky-centric approach or feel like you’d want to use all the fingers for typing, you could possibly do the same but with a foot pedal as a modifier / layer switcher. I suppose if I was to find myself in a situation where I have to type with just one hand, I’d look into the pedals that can send HID commands (to keep things simple for OS) or even get a couple of those jumbo mechanical keyboard switches and use them as foot-actuated modifiers / layer switchers.
You don’t need a special Keybaord to try it out, can just used Karabiner Elements (OSX) or Autohotkey (Windows). Lmk if you’d want some template scripts for either, happy to share them with you.
I have Caps mapped to Layer-1 which allow me to do CAPS (pinky)+ WSAD (arrows), g(backspace), we (PGup, PGdn), z (enter).
Now I don’t want to reach for number keys from [7] to = and I just map them to CAPS + 123456.
Recently i realized that I often have reach for the letter keys on the second half (y, n for example for notification windows), so I remapped some letters to those.
I am thinking of actually drawing up a layout which will allow me to use the sides interchangeably but still need to figure out which Modifier key to use, that could be as convenient to press with the pinky as Capslock.
For the right side I assume it could be same or, possibly even somewhat easier since, depending on the keyboard you’d have more keys reachable with a pinky to experiment with.
Alternatively, if you dislike this pinky-centric approach or feel like you’d want to use all the fingers for typing, you could possibly do the same but with a foot pedal as a modifier / layer switcher. I suppose if I was to find myself in a situation where I have to type with just one hand, I’d look into the pedals that can send HID commands (to keep things simple for OS) or even get a couple of those jumbo mechanical keyboard switches and use them as foot-actuated modifiers / layer switchers.
Dvorak also designed left and right handed keyboards [0].
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_keyboard_layout#One-han...
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_keyboard_layout#One-han...
for a zero hardware investment solution, you could try a keymap that uses a key to mirror the halves of your keyboard
Check out voice programming with Talon[0], I've recently been playing around with it (to be less reliant on my hands), and it actually takes little work to get started and fairly productive.
The state of voice programming is much better than most people would imagine.
Here's a nice talk on strangeloop by a person who switched to it permanently: https://youtu.be/YKuRkGkf5HU
[0]: https://talonvoice.com/
The state of voice programming is much better than most people would imagine.
Here's a nice talk on strangeloop by a person who switched to it permanently: https://youtu.be/YKuRkGkf5HU
[0]: https://talonvoice.com/
I'm sorry to hear about your accident! The Matias Half Keyboard https://matias.ca/halfkeyboard/ provides a one-handed keyboard that works very similarly to a conventional two-handed keyboard. It's a system that ought to be possible to replicate on a conventional board using AutoHotKey or on a custom-built board. I've never yet tried one myself though.
I love the idea and overall effort, but I really dislike the "push" nature of the top row for both fingers & thumb.
Our fingers/thumbs are incredibly weak at opening vs contracting. The actuation force of the top row would have to be very low compared to the other keys.
Thumb row, left/right movement is preferred over forward/back. It's actually why I dislike the Ergodox thumb cluster. Top row thumb buttons are out of reach and our thumbs aren't well suited to go up there. Better to put rarely used keys on a different layer.
My favorite out of the "kinesis like" so far is the Dactyl[0]. But dropping $400 just to "try it" is too tall for me.
[0] https://ohkeycaps.com/products/built-to-order-dactyl-manufor...
Our fingers/thumbs are incredibly weak at opening vs contracting. The actuation force of the top row would have to be very low compared to the other keys.
Thumb row, left/right movement is preferred over forward/back. It's actually why I dislike the Ergodox thumb cluster. Top row thumb buttons are out of reach and our thumbs aren't well suited to go up there. Better to put rarely used keys on a different layer.
My favorite out of the "kinesis like" so far is the Dactyl[0]. But dropping $400 just to "try it" is too tall for me.
[0] https://ohkeycaps.com/products/built-to-order-dactyl-manufor...
I agree. I wonder if it's better to have a two-stage bottom row, so one on 'light' pressure, and a second key on heavier. Or use a more traditional top row but somehow minimize the home row y-height so the top and bottom row can come closer.
You can get some manuform/manuform likes on eBay for a bit cheeper. I just ordered one from a fellow who seems to be just churning them out to test it. There always seems to be pretty reasonable demand for them, so I assume I could resell pretty quickly if I decide I dislike it
Ergodox (zsa) actually just came out with a new model which revamps the thumb cluster. Looks much better for chording.
https://www.zsa.io/moonlander
https://www.zsa.io/moonlander
I have this and enjoy it quite a bit. The thumb cluster is nice, but the red keys and the bottom thumb keys are a bit of a reach for me when tented. Their software is pretty good though. It’s super easy to modify the layout.
Looks a bit like the Datahand, been using those for the past 20 years.
One difference is that the Datahand also has keys on the left and right of each finger for a total of 5 keys on each.
One difference is that the Datahand also has keys on the left and right of each finger for a total of 5 keys on each.
That's what I was looking for! Also the actuation pressure is probably way less on the DH since it uses infrared switches.
Yeah, the feel of those switches is a big deal and it's probably the hardest part to reproduce.
One funny consequence of using IR switches is that direct sunlight can trigger them. I've had a few occasions when I was greeted by a screenful of repeated characters when I returned to my desk.
One funny consequence of using IR switches is that direct sunlight can trigger them. I've had a few occasions when I was greeted by a screenful of repeated characters when I returned to my desk.
Sidenote: If you (or anyone else) has one to sell, I'd love to try QMK'ing one.
Those Hall effect switches and design are amazing.
Those Hall effect switches and design are amazing.
I am not familiar with QMK but I have converted mine to use a Teensy++ and wrote a simple firmware for that. The nice thing about the Teensy++ is that it fits into the socket of the original 8051 (clone), you only have to crosswire or remove a couple of pins.
This post inspired me to modify my own in a very similar fashion: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12212.0
Teensy++: https://www.pjrc.com/store/teensypp.html
And this is the firmware I wrote and still use: https://github.com/imarko/dhteensy
I think there might be some better versions out there but I wrote this to work just the way I wanted so never bothered with anything else.
I don't have one to sell unfortunately, my spares may need to last me a lifetime :)
This post inspired me to modify my own in a very similar fashion: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=12212.0
Teensy++: https://www.pjrc.com/store/teensypp.html
And this is the firmware I wrote and still use: https://github.com/imarko/dhteensy
I think there might be some better versions out there but I wrote this to work just the way I wanted so never bothered with anything else.
I don't have one to sell unfortunately, my spares may need to last me a lifetime :)
I’ve been using the ZSA Moonlander since mid Feb and love the split aspect, what I don’t love is how high off the desk it sits, having the wrist rests above the keys like this seems like a great idea. I’ve often felt like I want an infinitely thin desk so I can type basically on my lap without totally destroying any vertical space above my knees.
For anyone interested in the Moonlander, I do recommend it but be prepared for your typing speed to tank for a good few weeks. Their customer support is also amazing, I had a minor issue with my board and then sent me a new left half no questions asked.
For anyone interested in the Moonlander, I do recommend it but be prepared for your typing speed to tank for a good few weeks. Their customer support is also amazing, I had a minor issue with my board and then sent me a new left half no questions asked.
Definitely recommend the moonlander, got mine last week and my productivity definitely tanked but it's getting back up there.
FWIW my RSI in my wrist has improved already a great deal since switching and it's only been a week.
FWIW my RSI in my wrist has improved already a great deal since switching and it's only been a week.
I bought one for wrist and elbow RSI. I really am enjoying it so far as well. The biggest challenge I am having is finding a layout I like and sticking with it.
I also have a Moonlander. The hardware is absolutely spectacular, it looks incredible. However never really got used to it as I have it on my non-primary rig.
Yeah this is my problem with a non-staggered layout. I have to use a standard laptop for work (and carry it frequently to different rooms), so getting the muscle memory to shift back and forth is just too much.
I wish they made a version of the moonlander with a more standard layout, I’d buy a few.
I wish they made a version of the moonlander with a more standard layout, I’d buy a few.
the one thing that keeps me from using my moonlander is that raising it up / tilting it so i can reduce RSI has resulted in a keyboard that just runs across the desk with every key stroke. I'm still trying to figure out how to resolve this. I think the problem is that my palm rest is so slick it forces me to apply pressure to the keyboard in order to keep my hands from sliding off of it. I may try a little adhesive sand paper on the palm rest as a first effort.
You could look at either getting a grippy mat of some kind to put under the keyboard. You could also try adding a little rubber to the contact points on the Moonlander with some Sugru [^1] or something.
Alternatively, you could try training yourself to let your hands float above the keyboard. I think that might be easier on your hands anyway; ymmv.
I have to keep my keyboard tilted at 15°; personally I don't have any problems with slippage. Sugru would be my first solution though if I did.
[^1]: https://sugru.com/
Alternatively, you could try training yourself to let your hands float above the keyboard. I think that might be easier on your hands anyway; ymmv.
I have to keep my keyboard tilted at 15°; personally I don't have any problems with slippage. Sugru would be my first solution though if I did.
[^1]: https://sugru.com/
I’ve put a felt mat under mine and for the brief period of time I tried it tented I had no issue with sliding.
It was like £8 on Amazon so might be worth a try.
It was like £8 on Amazon so might be worth a try.
> what I don’t love is how high off the desk it sits
And one of the features of the Moonlander over the Ergodox EZ is it's thinner. Mechanical keyboards seem to be bulky by default.
And one of the features of the Moonlander over the Ergodox EZ is it's thinner. Mechanical keyboards seem to be bulky by default.
> I want an infinitely thin desk so I can type basically on my lap without totally destroying any vertical space above my knees.
Keyboard trays come in in pretty thin, if your desk is high enough to attach an adjustable tray beneath it, it can work. Of course, you also need to have your monitor at a good height, if there's a conflict there, you have to do things like put the monitor at the edge of the desk and the tray out in front of the desk.
Keyboard trays come in in pretty thin, if your desk is high enough to attach an adjustable tray beneath it, it can work. Of course, you also need to have your monitor at a good height, if there's a conflict there, you have to do things like put the monitor at the edge of the desk and the tray out in front of the desk.
What once was the King’s Assembly: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/70308014/kings-assembly...
LOL I funded that one and they never shipped anything.
I kept looking for a connection to the Squeezebox media player. I don't think there is one.
FYI, squeezebox is a nickname for the accordion going back decades before internet streaming.
For example, in 1975, The Who released the song "Squeeze Box" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n02PD18cFs).
For example, in 1975, The Who released the song "Squeeze Box" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4n02PD18cFs).
I recommend you re-listen to that song for their meaning of Squeezebox
edit: I looked it up and the Who claims there was no double-entendre; I call BS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeeze_Box_(song))
edit: I looked it up and the Who claims there was no double-entendre; I call BS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeeze_Box_(song))
There may be (at least officially) no double entendre intended, but of course you're far from the only one to have heard it.
I assumed it was some sort of accordion-like keyboard that was partially air-powered.
I didn't expect it to be actually air powered. I did expect it to have two vertical surfaces with keys on either side of a central structure, possibly flexed in and out slightly as a modifier key.
I was just reminded of Logitech Squeezebox. Might have a naming conflict.
It's essentially a folded Corne keyboard [1]. I like how you can adjust the vertical position of each row, that's definitely new. Over all this is a very cool direction to take ortho linears.
[1] https://github.com/foostan/crkbd
[1] https://github.com/foostan/crkbd
In like '00 I got painful carpal tunnel syndrome symptoms after working intensely as a full-time developer for 3-4 years.
The solution was: Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro (Photo: http://xahlee.info/kbd/Microsoft_natural_keyboard.html) plus a fantastic heavy-duty "telescopic" keyboard/mouse tray that Ikea designed and sold for a few years.. You screwed it into the bottom of the desktop. The key was allowing the keyboard to be angled slightly away from the body, while also allowing it to be as close to the legs/knees as possible - thereby minimizing the wrist angle.
Is anyone aware of any modern replacements for the above? DIY/mechanical? (Mostly the keyboard itself - would love a mechanical keyboard witht the same 3d layout.)
The solution was: Microsoft Natural Keyboard Pro (Photo: http://xahlee.info/kbd/Microsoft_natural_keyboard.html) plus a fantastic heavy-duty "telescopic" keyboard/mouse tray that Ikea designed and sold for a few years.. You screwed it into the bottom of the desktop. The key was allowing the keyboard to be angled slightly away from the body, while also allowing it to be as close to the legs/knees as possible - thereby minimizing the wrist angle.
Is anyone aware of any modern replacements for the above? DIY/mechanical? (Mostly the keyboard itself - would love a mechanical keyboard witht the same 3d layout.)
Theres a whole world of split mechanical keyboards out there, like the Dactyl, Manuform, Kyria etc. I think splitkb.com has a discord where the very specific subset of mechanical keyboards that love ergo boards hang out.
I've seen a very large number of split DIY keyboards, but not really any with a dome-like (shaped like the hand) 3d layout like the MS Natural Keyboard from the 90s/00s - before they too went quite flat.
(Thanks for the discord hint.)
(Thanks for the discord hint.)
Dactyl split keyboard has a fork/derivative called the Manuform[1].
[1]: https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform
[1]: https://github.com/abstracthat/dactyl-manuform
There's also this: https://www.reddit.com/r/ergomechkeyboards/
A number of them can tent which makes for a similar experience.
I'm also looking for a replacement for the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000. It seems Microsoft stopped making them some time ago. I bought two more as a reserve but they are already in use now. My ideal keyboard would be this keyboard but with good mechanical switches.
I've tried a Keyboardio Atreus but it was too much of a change.
I've tried a Keyboardio Atreus but it was too much of a change.
Azeron keypad, but for typing instead of gaming.
that's definitely the vibe i'm getting as well. i bought one of those (azerons, that is) (because i am an absolute nerd)-- the flick-up switches are definitely slightly awk, as they would be with this setup as well imo, but what a super fun and neat device. used it for a while to play fortnite until it randomly broke one day. i think i'd get another one if i could get different switches in it somehow-- something w/ lower actuation (=> faster response) than whatever they put in.
Human interface device innovation is such a cool field to see things come out of. Everything from very real accessibility advances to purely fun concepts are so interesting to me. It’s fun to think about there being some undiscovered setup that just 10x’s your output— maybe it uses brainwaves, your eyebrow movements, a clutch, or all/none of the above!
I remember when I was about 12years old maybe, I was dreaming about something like this, which would allow using 2 positions - up and down, compared to the almost straight base position - of our fingers for input. I was learning to play the recorder at that time; I think that's sparked my thought process.
Has anyone ever tried a "glove" keyboard?
It seems feasible, and it could be beneficial by giving more flexibility for your arms, wrist, and hands position (I imagine myself typing with my arms resting in chair arms or my thighs). Also, it would be great for VR, I would assume.
It seems feasible, and it could be beneficial by giving more flexibility for your arms, wrist, and hands position (I imagine myself typing with my arms resting in chair arms or my thighs). Also, it would be great for VR, I would assume.
I imagined a bracelet with some strings attached to your fingertips, which can detect movement.
your indexes are always f and j, and you type on whatever surface you want, lol
your indexes are always f and j, and you type on whatever surface you want, lol
I wish I had the willpower to embrace something like this. Unfortunately I've never been able to break the self-developed typing method I learned as a child years before proper instruction could teach me good habits.
This is really cool. I could never use it due to having long fingernails (never mind my being a hover-with-two-fingers typist rather than touch), but it is still pretty cool.
Consider me very interested as someone using an Ergodox EZ with an already pretty out-there key layout (a modified BEAKL-15)
I wonder if this benefits people with Arthritis with the little movements.
I feel like this would be worse tbh. Not enough finger movement and pushing the fingers outwards doesn’t seem like a great idea long term.
I just don’t get the fascination for these minimal type keyboards, have tried a few and they frustrate the heck out of me.
I just don’t get the fascination for these minimal type keyboards, have tried a few and they frustrate the heck out of me.
I can't wrap my head around how anyone functions in a professional, uses-a-computer-all-day capacity if they can only type 60wpm. Dropping down to 20wpm, even temporarily? How do you get anything done that way?
Probably the same way you are generally productive but currently spending time on HN? Very unlikely anyone's productivity is "capped" by their typing speed. 99% of my productive time is thinking about solutions, not the physical act of typing them out.
Solve the same problem with less code?
I type at a pretty decent pace (~80 wpm), but I spend a lot more time thinking about what I'm going to type and reviewing what I just typed than pressing buttons on the keyboard.
I'd imagine this is the case for most people not doing stenography or data entry.
I'd imagine this is the case for most people not doing stenography or data entry.
I know some very prominent programmers that hunt and peck...
I can transcribe audio from meetings in almost real time. It doesn't actually require blazing fast WPM to do that. I get plenty done. And no, the first working squeezebox prototype is not my daily driver. Second version I hope but it's more about the process and I wouldn't be surprised if it is just the next entry in a fairly long line of keebs to challenge my original ergodox full-hand and walk away leaving the ergodox as king of the hill.