WWDC21(developer.apple.com)
developer.apple.com
WWDC21
https://developer.apple.com/wwdc21/
182 comments
Related to the graphic, but unrelated to the unicode angle: I have a colleague who was in communications for her organization (not even a tech company). She told me about the time they used a stock photo of a racially-ambiguous (not white, not black, but could be interpreted as mixed race, asian, hispanic, middle-eastern, etc) hand checking a box for a "Make sure you vote!" campaign last year, and they got a lot of flak for not explicitly making the hand black--literally some people were saying they felt that the message was explicitly excluding them or that they couldn't relate to it because the skin tone didn't match theirs. They made sure the hand was a female hand because they had previously gotten flak for that.
I think about that a lot when I look at corporate messaging like this. These days a lot of effort is put into making sure the content doesn't offend people who hold strongly to beliefs about race and gender--something that I might not be so aware of if I hadn't had her inside perspective. I wonder what kind of conversations must be had inside Apple's communications team about the "identities" of these avatars.
I'm sure some people will downvote this into oblivion (and fair enough--race and gender have been breathlessly promoted for the last 5+ years and some people are understandably fatigued of the topic), but I think trends about race and gender are interesting and maybe others will appreciate this anecdote.
I think about that a lot when I look at corporate messaging like this. These days a lot of effort is put into making sure the content doesn't offend people who hold strongly to beliefs about race and gender--something that I might not be so aware of if I hadn't had her inside perspective. I wonder what kind of conversations must be had inside Apple's communications team about the "identities" of these avatars.
I'm sure some people will downvote this into oblivion (and fair enough--race and gender have been breathlessly promoted for the last 5+ years and some people are understandably fatigued of the topic), but I think trends about race and gender are interesting and maybe others will appreciate this anecdote.
I think that if you get downvoted, it might be because it's not related to the parent comment (which is only talking about the unicode angle). You should make this a top-level comment!
Fair point. It's quite tangential, but I'm too lazy to move it; I'm okay with sacrificing the Internet Points. :)
It's a real breakdown of empathy. People only see skin color for their interpretation of "like me". There is so much to being a person, but this is the first thing people see, so it becomes insanely overrepresented.
Agreed. This brings to mind a couple of other anecdotes:
* The Dutch translator who was hired to translate Amanda Gorman's work (AG is the youngest poet laureate in US history and while I'm not particularly informed on poetry, I liked her performance at the Biden inauguration). The deal was reneged because of significant complaints that the translator wasn't black and thus couldn't possibly understand Gorman (a black person) and thus couldn't possibly convey her sentiments. The translator noted that he was deemed fit to translate Shakespeare despite not being neither an Englishman nor alive during the 16th century, so the implication seems to be that race constitutes a greater distinction between humans than nationality and centuries of history.
* The San Francisco school board affair in which a gay white man was deemed unfit to serve as a volunteer because, despite being eminently qualified and having the support of the broader community, he was "redundant" in that there were already several white female volunteers. In this case, the explicit reasoning of the school board was that the candidate volunteer wouldn't be able to relate to students of color and thus wouldn't be fit to serve them. The implication seems to be that students would be better served by a volunteer their own race (irrespective of the experiences or qualifications of said volunteer) rather than someone who was qualified and perhaps had relatable experiences but of a different race.
> There is so much to being a person, but this is the first thing people see, so it becomes insanely overrepresented.
Perhaps, but skin tone differences have always existed, and this sort of emphasis on skin tone seems like a very recent phenomenon at least in the scope of my lifetime.
* The Dutch translator who was hired to translate Amanda Gorman's work (AG is the youngest poet laureate in US history and while I'm not particularly informed on poetry, I liked her performance at the Biden inauguration). The deal was reneged because of significant complaints that the translator wasn't black and thus couldn't possibly understand Gorman (a black person) and thus couldn't possibly convey her sentiments. The translator noted that he was deemed fit to translate Shakespeare despite not being neither an Englishman nor alive during the 16th century, so the implication seems to be that race constitutes a greater distinction between humans than nationality and centuries of history.
* The San Francisco school board affair in which a gay white man was deemed unfit to serve as a volunteer because, despite being eminently qualified and having the support of the broader community, he was "redundant" in that there were already several white female volunteers. In this case, the explicit reasoning of the school board was that the candidate volunteer wouldn't be able to relate to students of color and thus wouldn't be fit to serve them. The implication seems to be that students would be better served by a volunteer their own race (irrespective of the experiences or qualifications of said volunteer) rather than someone who was qualified and perhaps had relatable experiences but of a different race.
> There is so much to being a person, but this is the first thing people see, so it becomes insanely overrepresented.
Perhaps, but skin tone differences have always existed, and this sort of emphasis on skin tone seems like a very recent phenomenon at least in the scope of my lifetime.
> this sort of emphasis on skin tone seems like a very recent phenomenon at least in the scope of my lifetime.
This sounds like something that could only be true of a white person. It reminds of me of how I was horrified to learn that one of my gay friends had to deal with someone calling them the F slur once, and my friend said I was only surprised because I don't personally deal with homophobic slurs on a regular basis.
There has always been extraordinary emphasis on skin tone, it's just that more and more non-POC folks are starting to see it bit by bit.
This sounds like something that could only be true of a white person. It reminds of me of how I was horrified to learn that one of my gay friends had to deal with someone calling them the F slur once, and my friend said I was only surprised because I don't personally deal with homophobic slurs on a regular basis.
There has always been extraordinary emphasis on skin tone, it's just that more and more non-POC folks are starting to see it bit by bit.
> There has always been extraordinary emphasis on skin tone
No doubt this is true in some strict sense depending on how you define "extraordinary", but in whatever sense this is true I don't think it's very informative. Namely, while (esp in the US) there is a deep history of racism, to say that it has always been this way is pretty much untrue--American views on race (including the importance placed on race) have changed a lot throughout history, and while racism has never utterly disappeared, it's perfectly correct to note that the emphasis placed on race in the 90s and 2000s was much lower than the most recent decade.
Indeed, Google NGram corroborates this. Note the date range is 1990-2019 because ngram doesn't offer 2020 or 2021 data--though I strongly suspect the upward trend continues in 2020. Note also that I used "americans" as a suffix in all cases to disambiguate "white" and "black" which come up in a lot of non-racial contexts.
* "White Americans" https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=white+american...
* "Black Americans" https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=black+american...
* "Asian Americans" https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=asian+american...
So I don't really buy into the "we've always been this obsessed about race; whites are just mysteriously unable to perceive it" argument. In general, people are often surprised that the variation within a race far exceeds the variation between races, and specifically that "people of color" do not have the views (on race or otherwise) ascribed to them by the popular media.
No doubt this is true in some strict sense depending on how you define "extraordinary", but in whatever sense this is true I don't think it's very informative. Namely, while (esp in the US) there is a deep history of racism, to say that it has always been this way is pretty much untrue--American views on race (including the importance placed on race) have changed a lot throughout history, and while racism has never utterly disappeared, it's perfectly correct to note that the emphasis placed on race in the 90s and 2000s was much lower than the most recent decade.
Indeed, Google NGram corroborates this. Note the date range is 1990-2019 because ngram doesn't offer 2020 or 2021 data--though I strongly suspect the upward trend continues in 2020. Note also that I used "americans" as a suffix in all cases to disambiguate "white" and "black" which come up in a lot of non-racial contexts.
* "White Americans" https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=white+american...
* "Black Americans" https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=black+american...
* "Asian Americans" https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=asian+american...
So I don't really buy into the "we've always been this obsessed about race; whites are just mysteriously unable to perceive it" argument. In general, people are often surprised that the variation within a race far exceeds the variation between races, and specifically that "people of color" do not have the views (on race or otherwise) ascribed to them by the popular media.
People writing about race more does not mean that race is necessarily playing a larger role in the various operations of society, it just means the myriad ways it affects society are being discussed more.
Race has always played this large a role, people just say it in books more. Our subconscious biases can reign supreme and yet never be discussed anywhere.
EDIT: There is also nothing mysterious about white people having a much harder time picking up on racism. You're making it seem like this mystical hippy-dippy nonsense. It's instead very simple: if you're white you won't often (ever) be the target of racism, so you'll have a skewed perception of how common and powerful it is. No mystery here, friend.
Race has always played this large a role, people just say it in books more. Our subconscious biases can reign supreme and yet never be discussed anywhere.
EDIT: There is also nothing mysterious about white people having a much harder time picking up on racism. You're making it seem like this mystical hippy-dippy nonsense. It's instead very simple: if you're white you won't often (ever) be the target of racism, so you'll have a skewed perception of how common and powerful it is. No mystery here, friend.
> People writing about race more does not mean that race is necessarily playing a larger role in the various operations of society, it just means the myriad ways it affects society are being discussed more.
Indeed, ngram isn’t conclusive proof that our society (or rather, certain elements there within) are race obsessed. But my claim is only that certain elements of society have become possessed by race, not that they have succeeded in restructuring society according to their segregationist designs.
> Race has always played this large a role, people just say it in books more.
I don’t think there’s any evidence for that, and there’s significant evidence that the role race plays has gone down considerably (we don’t have expressly racist policies like we did in the 60s and earlier, we don’t tolerate racist memes in the entertainment media, being perceived as a racist is the among the worst social offenses, etc). Note that there is no dichotomy between advocating for further progress and acknowledging the progress that has been made.
> Our subconscious biases can reign supreme and yet never be discussed anywhere.
And yet the evidence for subconscious bias is virtually nil. The implicit association test, long hailed to be proof of subconscious bias, turns out to be bunk and little additional evidence exists.
> There is also nothing mysterious about white people having a much harder time picking up on racism. You're making it seem like this mystical hippy-dippy nonsense. It's instead very simple: if you're white you won't often (ever) be the target of racism, so you'll have a skewed perception of how common and powerful it is. No mystery here, friend.
The idea that our society has always been this race-obsessed and white people are just unable to pick up on it is racist nonsense, and there is no evidence which supports it. Indeed, all evidence corroborates the hypothesis that our race obsession is a phenomenon that developed in the last 10 years. No need to gaslight the white folks. :)
Indeed, ngram isn’t conclusive proof that our society (or rather, certain elements there within) are race obsessed. But my claim is only that certain elements of society have become possessed by race, not that they have succeeded in restructuring society according to their segregationist designs.
> Race has always played this large a role, people just say it in books more.
I don’t think there’s any evidence for that, and there’s significant evidence that the role race plays has gone down considerably (we don’t have expressly racist policies like we did in the 60s and earlier, we don’t tolerate racist memes in the entertainment media, being perceived as a racist is the among the worst social offenses, etc). Note that there is no dichotomy between advocating for further progress and acknowledging the progress that has been made.
> Our subconscious biases can reign supreme and yet never be discussed anywhere.
And yet the evidence for subconscious bias is virtually nil. The implicit association test, long hailed to be proof of subconscious bias, turns out to be bunk and little additional evidence exists.
> There is also nothing mysterious about white people having a much harder time picking up on racism. You're making it seem like this mystical hippy-dippy nonsense. It's instead very simple: if you're white you won't often (ever) be the target of racism, so you'll have a skewed perception of how common and powerful it is. No mystery here, friend.
The idea that our society has always been this race-obsessed and white people are just unable to pick up on it is racist nonsense, and there is no evidence which supports it. Indeed, all evidence corroborates the hypothesis that our race obsession is a phenomenon that developed in the last 10 years. No need to gaslight the white folks. :)
It’s the anniversary of George Floyd’s murder, which sparked the largest ever protests seen in this country over the racist tendencies of of this country. One of the important take aways of those protests is understanding that these murders are not uncommon, but a part of what it means to be black in America. This has been the case for centuries. As long as we can safely say that the United States has an extremely racist past, it’s fair to say that skin tone has played a huge role in society.
How can you say that race’s role in the US has only recently become so large when there have been lynchings in the recent past, and it was legal to own someone who was black?
Surely we can consider those things as instances of skin tone being taken into consideration, no?
How can you say that race’s role in the US has only recently become so large when there have been lynchings in the recent past, and it was legal to own someone who was black?
Surely we can consider those things as instances of skin tone being taken into consideration, no?
> How can you say that race’s role in the US has only recently become so large when there have been lynchings in the recent past, and it was legal to own someone who was black?
That's easy--I never said anything remotely like this. :) I quite explicitly scoped my claim to "within my lifetime". Indeed, everyone knows that race played a big factor in our nation's history. We made a lot of progress away from racial ideologies following the civil rights movement, and while the work isn't complete it doesn't follow that we should double down on different racial ideologies.
> One of the important take aways of those protests is understanding that these murders are not uncommon, but a part of what it means to be black in America.
I don't think that's remotely an appropriate takeaway. By all appearances, violent crime rates account for the disparity in police killings, which are indeed rare regardless of race (contrary to your "not uncommon" claim). Indeed, last time I dug into the WashPo police shootings database and filtered out all instances in which the deceased was wielding a weapon, the disparity virtually disappeared.
Further, while we're all familiar with the myriad cases of unjust police killings of black Americans, there are plenty of cases of white people heinously murdered by police which were never elevated by the media. Consider [Daniel Shaver][0], [Tony Timpa][1], and [Justine Damond][2] (all killed by police within a year or so of each other). Of course, people always say "they didn't get national attention because they weren't killed for their race" which is of course begging the question since the only evidence that George Floyd or whomever was killed for his race is the presumed lack of notable cases of white people being killed by police.
To the extent that fear of police is "part of what it means to be black in America", it appears to be a largely manufactured or vestigial fear.
The only appropriate conclusions to draw are:
1. the United States has a police brutality problem (irrespective of race)
2. that black citizens are more likely to commit crimes than citizens of other races--presumably for historical reasons--leading to a disparity in police killings of black citizens
3. the media will absolutely sow divisiveness on a nationwide scale for clicks
[0]: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/a-polic... [1]: https://www.nationalreview.com/news/tony-timpa-suffered-the-... [2]: https://www.startribune.com/australian-woman-justine-damond-...
That's easy--I never said anything remotely like this. :) I quite explicitly scoped my claim to "within my lifetime". Indeed, everyone knows that race played a big factor in our nation's history. We made a lot of progress away from racial ideologies following the civil rights movement, and while the work isn't complete it doesn't follow that we should double down on different racial ideologies.
> One of the important take aways of those protests is understanding that these murders are not uncommon, but a part of what it means to be black in America.
I don't think that's remotely an appropriate takeaway. By all appearances, violent crime rates account for the disparity in police killings, which are indeed rare regardless of race (contrary to your "not uncommon" claim). Indeed, last time I dug into the WashPo police shootings database and filtered out all instances in which the deceased was wielding a weapon, the disparity virtually disappeared.
Further, while we're all familiar with the myriad cases of unjust police killings of black Americans, there are plenty of cases of white people heinously murdered by police which were never elevated by the media. Consider [Daniel Shaver][0], [Tony Timpa][1], and [Justine Damond][2] (all killed by police within a year or so of each other). Of course, people always say "they didn't get national attention because they weren't killed for their race" which is of course begging the question since the only evidence that George Floyd or whomever was killed for his race is the presumed lack of notable cases of white people being killed by police.
To the extent that fear of police is "part of what it means to be black in America", it appears to be a largely manufactured or vestigial fear.
The only appropriate conclusions to draw are:
1. the United States has a police brutality problem (irrespective of race)
2. that black citizens are more likely to commit crimes than citizens of other races--presumably for historical reasons--leading to a disparity in police killings of black citizens
3. the media will absolutely sow divisiveness on a nationwide scale for clicks
[0]: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/a-polic... [1]: https://www.nationalreview.com/news/tony-timpa-suffered-the-... [2]: https://www.startribune.com/australian-woman-justine-damond-...
> The San Francisco school board affair in which a gay white man was deemed unfit to serve as a volunteer because [...] he was "redundant" in that there were already several white female volunteers.
That's kinda homophobic. Gay man so he HAS to be effeminate.
> The implication seems to be that students would be better served by a volunteer their own race
I bet the (closeted) students (of all races) would have probably preferred to see an openly gay man in a position of authority where he's not mocked for who is is.
That's kinda homophobic. Gay man so he HAS to be effeminate.
> The implication seems to be that students would be better served by a volunteer their own race
I bet the (closeted) students (of all races) would have probably preferred to see an openly gay man in a position of authority where he's not mocked for who is is.
> That's kinda homophobic. Gay man so he HAS to be effeminate.
FWIW, I didn't interpret it that way. I think the school board's message was merely that race dominates all other qualifications and since they already had two other white people (who happened to be female) they already had enough people with "white qualifications". Of course, this is by no means a less toxic interpretation than your "homophobia" interpretation.
FWIW, I didn't interpret it that way. I think the school board's message was merely that race dominates all other qualifications and since they already had two other white people (who happened to be female) they already had enough people with "white qualifications". Of course, this is by no means a less toxic interpretation than your "homophobia" interpretation.
All the more reason to use something like Adobe Target to serve a picture of a black male hand to a black male viewer and a white female hand to a white female viewer.
That would be an incredibly short-sighted own goal from the point of view of diversity. You need people to feel accepted, but you also need them to be in contact with others, otherwise you favour insular or tribal tendencies. You need mixing across communities, not pandering to insecurity. You need people to realise that it’s ok to identify with someone with different physical characteristics, or to empathise with them.
Nope.
It’s and education issue not technology.
People need to be taught that no every single thing will represent their identity and that’s ok, it’s not racism.
We need to teach the racism out of the people who claim to be anti-racist.
It’s and education issue not technology.
People need to be taught that no every single thing will represent their identity and that’s ok, it’s not racism.
We need to teach the racism out of the people who claim to be anti-racist.
In this case, it's good to emphasize (to everyone) that software engineers are all sorts of people.
I think it's helpful to distinguish between "not whitewashing" (i.e., representing the actual demographics) and actively showing the demographics some wish the industry had (which is also what whitewashing is, although whitewashing only applies when the desired demographics are white). Your comment seems to appeal to "not whitewashing", but Apple here appears to be promoting its own desired demographics or else they would probably use characters who are either racially ambiguous (e.g., the yellow emojis) or else representative of the larger industry.
Of course, there's the possibility that I'm reading too much into Apple's intent based on this one sample. If we wanted to be more certain we would have to do a more robust analysis.
Of course, there's the possibility that I'm reading too much into Apple's intent based on this one sample. If we wanted to be more certain we would have to do a more robust analysis.
I don’t know about this one, but last time the people were random. I have no doubt that their faces were closer to an “ideal” demographic makeup (according to some marketing people) than the reality, but it is not obvious looking just at one picture.
Fair enough. I could be over-extrapolating.
FWIW I think a random selection among a list of representative faces is a good way of solving the problem.
Agreed. I also like the yellow-emoji option--use something that clearly has no race.
Except yellow skin has been historically used to describe Asians. Maybe purple or neon green could have been used to steer definitely clear of that.
If someone is tenuously making the "yellow emojis are actually asians" argument, they're certainly acting in bad faith, but I guess bad faith is what got us here in the first place. I find myself pretty unwilling to accommodate bad faith, especially because by definition bad faith will always make increasingly ridiculous demands.
I think it's important to point out here that
> they couldn't relate to it
and
> they felt that the message was explicitly excluding them
are not the same as
> making sure the content doesn't offend people
Transforming the formers into the latter is belittling. I'm glad I don't live in a world where nothing ever represents me.
> they couldn't relate to it
and
> they felt that the message was explicitly excluding them
are not the same as
> making sure the content doesn't offend people
Transforming the formers into the latter is belittling. I'm glad I don't live in a world where nothing ever represents me.
I'm pretty sure "hurt" and "offended" are synonymous in this context, or at least pretty close. In whichever case, I intended it without judgment, so re-read it accordingly.
> I intended it without judgment
I don't doubt you. But you didn't write it without transforming what they said in the first paragraph into something else in the second. I'm not calling for your head here, just pointing out a flawed linguistic turn that enables people to dismiss complaints about being left out again and again and again as histrionic (like I see nawgz doing in that sibling comment).
I don't doubt you. But you didn't write it without transforming what they said in the first paragraph into something else in the second. I'm not calling for your head here, just pointing out a flawed linguistic turn that enables people to dismiss complaints about being left out again and again and again as histrionic (like I see nawgz doing in that sibling comment).
I disagree. I don't think there's anything to transform. "Offense" is an apt summary for the complaints. One of the HN guidelines is to read charitably, and in general splitting semantic hairs is rarely interesting IMHO.
What do you mean? People were offended by the content, reacting with tidbits like "they couldn't relate to it" and "they felt that the message was explicitly excluding them" even though the message was to "Go Vote" and only had one single human female hand in it.
To have people react like that, when the message was so far removed from race & gender, shows just how much work has to be done to minimize offense taken by any piece of content.
Strongly disagreed with your claim of "belittling".
Edit: I get downvoted a lot on this site without explanation. Really struggling to understand how this comment is worth downvotes but no responses...
To have people react like that, when the message was so far removed from race & gender, shows just how much work has to be done to minimize offense taken by any piece of content.
Strongly disagreed with your claim of "belittling".
Edit: I get downvoted a lot on this site without explanation. Really struggling to understand how this comment is worth downvotes but no responses...
I was in Bangalore today and had a taxi driver turn to me and say, "you know what, throwaway894345 may be pro-Damore and spend rhetorical time trying to downplay the Jan 6 riots, but I'm sure that anecdote about a female colleague working in communications getting flak for not making the hand black is in no way a ridiculous straw man for his own sentiments." A bunch of leftist professors happened to overhear us as we were stopped at the curb and immediately threw down their Che shirts and began sobbing and clapping.
This is such a bizarre retort, I'm honestly amused. And kudos to you for getting my username right--I can't even remember it, so your attention to detail is impeccable! Thanks for making my day a little brighter, and happy trails my friend.
That was the first time I've upvoted a comment whose raw message irritated me. You don't see many creative comments here. They seem to be discouraged. But at least we all have impeccable rationality!
I just wish you didn't feel the need to highjack comments and posts to fan the flames of a partisan conflict.
Surely there's a better place for this debate?
Surely there's a better place for this debate?
One of the reasons to favor going to the most technical oriented panels and talks at these events: Way less corporate oversight and, since the subject is way too technical, less or no outraged humanities in tech in attendance.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27266582.
Curious to see if a new MacBook Pro 15"/16" with an upgraded M1 chip is presented.
Most likely not. WWDC is for software announcements, mainly the new iOS and macOS versions, and I don't believe new hardware has even been presented (this is not true, see edit).
EDIT: I was wrong an hardware has indeed been presented at WWDC before. I still believe, however, that a new M1 16" MacBook Pro isn't a WWDC-worthy announcement and will likely be announced in October.
EDIT: I was wrong an hardware has indeed been presented at WWDC before. I still believe, however, that a new M1 16" MacBook Pro isn't a WWDC-worthy announcement and will likely be announced in October.
You're right in general, but I do remember Mac Pro being announced at WWDC.
The M1 devkti was presented.
The AppleTV devkit was presented.
Some upgrades are presented.
It makes a lot of sense to present "pro" hardware to developers
The AppleTV devkit was presented.
Some upgrades are presented.
It makes a lot of sense to present "pro" hardware to developers
Not that it's a foolproof indicator for this year but new hardware has absolutely been announced at WWDC. The iPhone 3G is the one that immediately comes to mind but it's far from the only one. I'm pretty sure new Macbooks have been included before.
You're right! In fact, the last iPhone to be revealed at a WWDC was the iPhone 4 in 2010.
And boy was that a release! (discounting for Antennagate)
Edit: And the terrible home button
The iPhone 4 was my favorite "new iPhone", if that makes any sense. The screen was amazing for the time!
The iPhone 4 gave birth to front facing camera as we know it. That was practically nonexistent on any other phone at the time.
Wasn’t the 4 the first one with a “retina” screen? That was revolutionary at the time. Today, we take for granted high pixel density phones, but if you compared a 3GS to the new 4, it was mind blowing.
Yes, it was the first one with a retina screen. The change from the 3GS to the 4 was amazing. Also, the overall design was much slimmer. It seemed like a huge upgrade. Most of the upgrades since have felt much more incremental.
Many many models of macs and iPads have been announced at WWDC keynotes. Including the iMac Pro and the original Mac Pro.
This is not true, Apple doesn't announce hardware at every WWDC but it's not uncommon. In 2019 they announced the updated Mac Pro and the Pro Display XDR. In 2017 they announced updates to the iMac, Macbook, Macbook Pro, iPad Pro, and HomePod.
I believe Mac Pro was introduced at WWDC to be released at “Fall”.
Isn't WWDC where "one more thing" came to be?
> and I don't believe new hardware has even been presented.
I cant remember whom it was, but someone, an influencer or KOL on twitter or a blog started this "no new hardware has ever been presented in WWDC" madness and it has been spreading like plague ever since.
Mac Pro, Pro Display in 2019, MacBook Pro 2017, iPhone 3G and 4, and MacBook Pro 2009.
Other similar false statements were M1 has integrated memory ( For the 999th times it does not ) and AirPod were sold at cost ( this one is from Gruber ).
I cant remember whom it was, but someone, an influencer or KOL on twitter or a blog started this "no new hardware has ever been presented in WWDC" madness and it has been spreading like plague ever since.
Mac Pro, Pro Display in 2019, MacBook Pro 2017, iPhone 3G and 4, and MacBook Pro 2009.
Other similar false statements were M1 has integrated memory ( For the 999th times it does not ) and AirPod were sold at cost ( this one is from Gruber ).
The “integrated memory” comes from confusion on the “unified memory” architecture. Unified just means shared by the CPU and GPU cores, but it doesn’t have to be integrated. Alas, many journalists probably wouldn’t know or understand that.
That would be no surprise, since I have called it too many times before and waited and I will call it once again.
Now the M1 hype squad are becoming slightly short-sighted with their purchase, I'll just sit back and wait for the new generation to come (which is not far off) and the ecosystem to mature, (unlike what happened on November 2020) and at least this year, me and the newcomers jumping on Apple Silicon will have a much better experience.
I am bullish on Apple Silicon and looking past the M1 generation and will get the newer generation models instead and skipping M1.
Now the M1 hype squad are becoming slightly short-sighted with their purchase, I'll just sit back and wait for the new generation to come (which is not far off) and the ecosystem to mature, (unlike what happened on November 2020) and at least this year, me and the newcomers jumping on Apple Silicon will have a much better experience.
I am bullish on Apple Silicon and looking past the M1 generation and will get the newer generation models instead and skipping M1.
Of course newer, high spec models are coming. In the meantime, I’ve spent 6 or so months developing and working on my favorite laptop I’ve ever used, and I anticipate high resale when a newer version comes out. Explain how I have been short sighted?
> I anticipate high resale when a newer version comes out.
Er, not really.
Not if you have already used it after 14 days after purchase with Apple, 30 days with Amazon and in most cases, no returns if you have already opened it depending where you have bought it.
To see what the hype was all about, I recently bought, tried it out and subsequently returned it at 100% of the retail price. Since you used it for 6 months or so, that isn't going to come close to that and on top of that given how immature the software ecosystem was for Apple Silicon on launch day, it was pointless to jump on board with broken software.
Now that WWDC is around the corner, we'll see what Apple has to offer for Apple Silicon which is not far off.
Er, not really.
Not if you have already used it after 14 days after purchase with Apple, 30 days with Amazon and in most cases, no returns if you have already opened it depending where you have bought it.
To see what the hype was all about, I recently bought, tried it out and subsequently returned it at 100% of the retail price. Since you used it for 6 months or so, that isn't going to come close to that and on top of that given how immature the software ecosystem was for Apple Silicon on launch day, it was pointless to jump on board with broken software.
Now that WWDC is around the corner, we'll see what Apple has to offer for Apple Silicon which is not far off.
My feelings exactly. I'm quite excited by Apple Silicon. I have been hearing stories from users of the M1 that almost sound like science-fiction (Rosetta 2 performance being one).
The M1X/M2 is going to be pretty awesome, because it will reflect the "paved bare spots" worn by the M1 being in the wild.
This means that the designers will have been able to aggregate performance and usage data, to tune the processor for environments outside the lab.
Also, most software vendors will have released Apple Silicon native versions of their applications, or tuned their non-native apps to perform well in Rosetta.
Definitely getting one, when they become available.
The M1X/M2 is going to be pretty awesome, because it will reflect the "paved bare spots" worn by the M1 being in the wild.
This means that the designers will have been able to aggregate performance and usage data, to tune the processor for environments outside the lab.
Also, most software vendors will have released Apple Silicon native versions of their applications, or tuned their non-native apps to perform well in Rosetta.
Definitely getting one, when they become available.
> Also, most software vendors will have released Apple Silicon native versions of their applications, or tuned their non-native apps to perform well in Rosetta.
We're actually pretty far along on that path already! I'm surprised at how few of the applications I have installed are still Intel-only.
We're actually pretty far along on that path already! I'm surprised at how few of the applications I have installed are still Intel-only.
Not sure what the short-sighted comment is regarding - My MacBookAir M1 is by far the greatest laptop upgrade I've ever made. Both of my last two upgrades prior to that (MacBook Air 2013 -> MacBook Air 2015), Dell XPS 9560 -> Dell XPS 7590) - we're so "meh" that (with the exception of video conferencing on the Dell, where it moved out of the Nose Cam) - I didn't really have any preference.
I can't imagine going back from the MacBook Air M1 to the 2015 MacBook Air, and, I'm pretty confident that it will be my daily driver for the next 5-6 years. Six months in, I'm still delighted every day that I use it.
I 100% understand the "Wait a few generations so you aren't a beta tester" - I didn't pick up an Apple Watch until the 3rd generation came out. But the MacBook Air M1 really feels, to me, like a 3rd generation product. So much so that it feels like Apple kind of of messed up in their product roll-out. This should have been the 2021/2022 refresh, not the initial product - but I'll take it!
I can't imagine going back from the MacBook Air M1 to the 2015 MacBook Air, and, I'm pretty confident that it will be my daily driver for the next 5-6 years. Six months in, I'm still delighted every day that I use it.
I 100% understand the "Wait a few generations so you aren't a beta tester" - I didn't pick up an Apple Watch until the 3rd generation came out. But the MacBook Air M1 really feels, to me, like a 3rd generation product. So much so that it feels like Apple kind of of messed up in their product roll-out. This should have been the 2021/2022 refresh, not the initial product - but I'll take it!
You’re the one missing out.
On what exactly? The recovery OS bricking M1 Macbooks because of a bad update on launch day? I'm glad I dodged that bullet and have my data safe and sound.
If that happened on your first Mac (Like many others who went all in), well its back to the Apple store for you since you would need another Mac to restore it.
For developers, nearly everything is running in Rosetta since it is not optimised or still unfinished. For example, not being able to use Docker on M1 for 6 months until it became stable, Android Studio still unable to run VMs properly, Java was unavailable for months after Nov 2020, resulting in 'workarounds' to get it 'working'. Someone else mentioned that Vargrant (which uses VirtualBox) doesn’t even run. Very happy I missed out on that chaos on waiting months if I went all in on moving to M1.
So yes, I missed out on being part of the November 2020 chaos and also waiting months for the software ecosystem to catch up to Apple Silicon. Anything other reason as to why I should buy a M1 Macbook NOW rather than waiting for M1X/M2 instead?
If that happened on your first Mac (Like many others who went all in), well its back to the Apple store for you since you would need another Mac to restore it.
For developers, nearly everything is running in Rosetta since it is not optimised or still unfinished. For example, not being able to use Docker on M1 for 6 months until it became stable, Android Studio still unable to run VMs properly, Java was unavailable for months after Nov 2020, resulting in 'workarounds' to get it 'working'. Someone else mentioned that Vargrant (which uses VirtualBox) doesn’t even run. Very happy I missed out on that chaos on waiting months if I went all in on moving to M1.
So yes, I missed out on being part of the November 2020 chaos and also waiting months for the software ecosystem to catch up to Apple Silicon. Anything other reason as to why I should buy a M1 Macbook NOW rather than waiting for M1X/M2 instead?
M1 macbooks are amazing, and you are clearly very biased.
In fact, the M1 hype squad is 'clearly very biased' than I am. 'It is faster than everything I've seen on a laptop without a fan' and 'runs (some but only approved) iOS apps' and that is it.
If the software does not run, requires a very involved workaround or is unstable enough to prevent someone doing their work, then all of the above is useless.
Evaluation of new shiny toys comes with a for and against. Let me be clear: going all in on an entirely new product with early 1.0 software is a risk that can't be ignored and it was hidden by most and not shown on November 2020 by the fanatics.
My question still remains unanswered: Anything other reason as to why I should buy a M1 Macbook NOW rather than waiting for M1X/M2 instead?
If the software does not run, requires a very involved workaround or is unstable enough to prevent someone doing their work, then all of the above is useless.
Evaluation of new shiny toys comes with a for and against. Let me be clear: going all in on an entirely new product with early 1.0 software is a risk that can't be ignored and it was hidden by most and not shown on November 2020 by the fanatics.
My question still remains unanswered: Anything other reason as to why I should buy a M1 Macbook NOW rather than waiting for M1X/M2 instead?
Agree. Currently there is no way to run Vagrant+Virtualbox on a M1.
There was a supply chain leak last week that got me excited. A new chip for the macbook pros that can support 64gb RAM.
Magsafe restored
SD card restored
Butterfly keyboard still gone, which was another point of contention in the past
and touch bar still there (yay)
alongside USBC ports
hope this is corroborated by Apple, seems too good to be true
Magsafe restored
SD card restored
Butterfly keyboard still gone, which was another point of contention in the past
and touch bar still there (yay)
alongside USBC ports
hope this is corroborated by Apple, seems too good to be true
I've been expecting them to move the Touch Bar up and add a row of physical function keys. I'd be perfectly fine with that.
There are some bases of users that actually use the Touch Bar. Most of the devs on here are not among them. From what I've heard it's mostly graphics and 3d people.
The biggest issue I have with the Touch Bar is how un-customizable it is. Make it easier to do DIY customizations and I might find some interesting uses for it.
There are some bases of users that actually use the Touch Bar. Most of the devs on here are not among them. From what I've heard it's mostly graphics and 3d people.
The biggest issue I have with the Touch Bar is how un-customizable it is. Make it easier to do DIY customizations and I might find some interesting uses for it.
BetterTouchTool can help a little with the Touch Bar but overall I hope they kill it off. They haven't iterated on it at all since release and it's more in my way than useful. On top of that my MBP is in clamshell mode 99.9% of the time so it's completely worthless for me. I'd even be happy with just the option to not have the Touch Bar on the new 16".
I'll second the recommendation for BTT. The UI is a disaster but it's still at the top of my list for installing on new machines.
Side note: BTT is not just about the touch bar and trackpad gesture customization, it's also fantastic for mapping hotkeys and window snapping.
Side note: BTT is not just about the touch bar and trackpad gesture customization, it's also fantastic for mapping hotkeys and window snapping.
As for customizing, I use macvim quite a lot, and it's easy to add things to the colorbar, e.g. with
" Touchbar
amenu TouchBar.make :!make<CR>
amenu TouchBar.@q @q
Pretty sure that will be on the agenda
As a former Swift developer, WWDC always brought great joy and interest from me. Apple always showcases some nifty features (their WWDC end up becoming the de facto documentation for their API, which is a reflection of the quality of the videos and perversely the lack of quality of their documentation).
I know a lot of people complain about the 99$ developer fee each year, but Apple in my humble opinion has the hands down best APIs currently for mobile / touch systems. For example, I created my own music app within a day. And WWDC is the heart of showcasing their features for the year to come.
I don’t program for IOS anymore, but will watch from a far distance. I’m all in on linux these days!
I know a lot of people complain about the 99$ developer fee each year, but Apple in my humble opinion has the hands down best APIs currently for mobile / touch systems. For example, I created my own music app within a day. And WWDC is the heart of showcasing their features for the year to come.
I don’t program for IOS anymore, but will watch from a far distance. I’m all in on linux these days!
How can you make money on linux?
Correction: I understood the original comment as developing software for linux and getting paid for it, and not using it to make web apps, doing web development is platform independent obviously..
Correction: I understood the original comment as developing software for linux and getting paid for it, and not using it to make web apps, doing web development is platform independent obviously..
> How can you make money on linux?
Doesn't the vast majority of the world's commercial software run on Linux?
Doesn't the vast majority of the world's commercial software run on Linux?
I’m skeptic of that. Adobe, Oracle, Altium, and MANY other enterprise level software suites are Windows only.
You mean desktop software? What proportion of software use is that? Absolutely tiny, I'd imagine.
Why would you think that?
What do you think it's running on? Data centres full of Macs and Windows machines?
Why would most commercial software be on data center computers? Where do these assumptions come from?
I don't understand - do you think most services are run from someone's random desktop? That's not the way it works in the real world.
To be clear, you think most commercial software runs on linux because you think most commercial software is services running in data centers?
Data centres, back-office server cabinets, bank main-frames, embedded devices, POS, handled devices. Where do you think it's running? On Dell Opterons on people's desks running Windows? That's not how it's worked for decades.
Not how what worked? 95% of desktops are windows or mac, 99% of mobile are android and iOS. That is computers sold, business included. What is this hallucination that all programs are some sort of command line chron job?
https://netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.asp...
https://netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.asp...
> 95% of desktops are windows or mac, 99% of mobile are android and iOS. That is computers sold, business included.
But that isn't where most software runs. Most people just run a browser or a couple of desktop apps locally.
The vast majority of software is embedded or in data centres, running on Linux or iOS as an exceptional case.
Think about how many services you interact with daily - how many websites, payment services, bank systems, networking systems, other online computer systems in your life. You probably interact with hundreds of such systems every day not always realising it. Compared to what... three or four desktop apps maybe?
Many poorer people don't even own a desktop or laptop at all - so they interact with zero desktop apps but still hundreds of services via their (Linux) phones.
> What is this hallucination that all programs are some sort of command line chron job?
That's literally what most programs are - services providing an API or a web UI running as a command line program in a data centre.
But that isn't where most software runs. Most people just run a browser or a couple of desktop apps locally.
The vast majority of software is embedded or in data centres, running on Linux or iOS as an exceptional case.
Think about how many services you interact with daily - how many websites, payment services, bank systems, networking systems, other online computer systems in your life. You probably interact with hundreds of such systems every day not always realising it. Compared to what... three or four desktop apps maybe?
Many poorer people don't even own a desktop or laptop at all - so they interact with zero desktop apps but still hundreds of services via their (Linux) phones.
> What is this hallucination that all programs are some sort of command line chron job?
That's literally what most programs are - services providing an API or a web UI running as a command line program in a data centre.
To recap, you made a nonsensical hyperbolic statement that is heavily contradicted by real numbers of what computers people buy and use, then say that web pages served from open source software are "running commercial software" while the computers that display and run the web page don't count. Do I have all of this right?
Not easy at all, but I have a day job (outside of IT). The way would be to build web apps / SaaS and also move more into B2B as consumer facing software would be better built natively for their target operating systems (Apple / Windows / etc)
I’m moving more into technical software, so I couldn’t afford more than half my potential user base saying Oh I don’t have a Mac
I’m moving more into technical software, so I couldn’t afford more than half my potential user base saying Oh I don’t have a Mac
Not easy? The internet basically runs on linux
Yes but for the single programmer working by himself or herself, its much more palatable to build an app for iOS / MacOS and monetize from it. I believe that is the direction of the parent comment that I replied to. Many things run on linux but they are also very big softwares run by large teams
If a vendor runs a website to sell their wares that happens to run on linux, then yes it's "easy" to make money on linux. If you are a developer trying to make money on some software you've created specifically for linux, then it's a different thing entirely.
Be a web developer. Web works just fine on Linux.
While not exactly being what you're referring to (I believe you're solely referring to something akin to enterprise-esque application development), there are many jobs out there for those of us who build entire distros for public (and private) entities to consume. This ranges from automotive, to defense, to open source OSes like Ubuntu, SUSE, CentOS, etc.
I used to work at a company in the chip-design software space that built Linux-only software for $100k/user/year, so there's definitely money to be made for Linux (even if it happens to be niche software).
I think I'm biased because I've been working in their ecosystem for a decade now, but I absolutely agree. I think they've done a generally good job of updating and deprecating APIs. The designs for their common UI components is consistent, making it easy to build things once you know the basic patterns.
The only complaint I have is when you get down to issues with layout and animations not working as expected, it's incredibly hard to debug what's causing it since it's in the "magic" part of the UI frameworks. Often, some re-shuffling of main DispatchQueue steps fixes things up.
The only complaint I have is when you get down to issues with layout and animations not working as expected, it's incredibly hard to debug what's causing it since it's in the "magic" part of the UI frameworks. Often, some re-shuffling of main DispatchQueue steps fixes things up.
I used to have the same opinion but I've realized that Apple APIs are for a particular type of an app. It can get very restrictive very fast.
I have since moved on to building my own GUIs with Rust.
But I that my app has different requirements than most.
I have since moved on to building my own GUIs with Rust.
But I that my app has different requirements than most.
Yeah basically Apple funnels you into their vision and WWDC is a great predictor of the future changes in the apps on the platform.
Its part of the appeal of Apple’s ecosystem - the very high level of standardisation, although it obviously has its drawbacks as you have mentioned
Its part of the appeal of Apple’s ecosystem - the very high level of standardisation, although it obviously has its drawbacks as you have mentioned
True, the APIs are usually top notch, but I really hope SwiftUI will get another revision or something. It looks good on paper, but you constantly run into things that are really weird, odd, and feel like hacks. State management is too complicated as well.
The documentation of SwiftUI is poor but I was able to create mostly what I wanted from it, this was a year or so ago.
I released a SwiftUI calculator I built earlier as open source on GitHub, it may be useful for some dipping their toes into it.
I actually really enjoyed working in SwiftUI. Towards the end of my time, I started moving into a hybrid approach where I would borrow some of the concepts of CSS stylesheets and clearly separate constant parameters used in UX into their own swift files (making it easier to flip between them, eg when going from light mode to dark or from iPhone to iPad)
Link: https://github.com/ashok-khanna/RPN-31
I released a SwiftUI calculator I built earlier as open source on GitHub, it may be useful for some dipping their toes into it.
I actually really enjoyed working in SwiftUI. Towards the end of my time, I started moving into a hybrid approach where I would borrow some of the concepts of CSS stylesheets and clearly separate constant parameters used in UX into their own swift files (making it easier to flip between them, eg when going from light mode to dark or from iPhone to iPad)
Link: https://github.com/ashok-khanna/RPN-31
> I was able to create mostly what I wanted from it
Is "what I wanted" just the calculator app you link? Of course I don't know how much complexity went into it, but maybe the app just didn't touch on the darker corners/pitfalls of SwiftUI that I find you only run into when it comes to Core Data, fancy views, animations/transitions and so on.
Is "what I wanted" just the calculator app you link? Of course I don't know how much complexity went into it, but maybe the app just didn't touch on the darker corners/pitfalls of SwiftUI that I find you only run into when it comes to Core Data, fancy views, animations/transitions and so on.
Core Data is a persistent storage facility so can be handled either in Swift or SwiftUI.
I wrote a reasonably valued answer on controlling animations in SwiftUI on SO, so I was happy to push the boundaries there: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58284994/swiftui-how-to-...
The app doesn’t have any super advanced animation, but for most apps, I don’t think that is required. But that’s personal opinion.
This is a longwinded way of saying perhaps you are right and I haven’t fully appreciated more advanced UI, but at the same time many of the basics in SwiftUI cover many use cases :)
I wrote a reasonably valued answer on controlling animations in SwiftUI on SO, so I was happy to push the boundaries there: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/58284994/swiftui-how-to-...
The app doesn’t have any super advanced animation, but for most apps, I don’t think that is required. But that’s personal opinion.
This is a longwinded way of saying perhaps you are right and I haven’t fully appreciated more advanced UI, but at the same time many of the basics in SwiftUI cover many use cases :)
> many of the basics in SwiftUI cover many use cases :)
Yeah, I fully agree. But I also feel like if your use case isn't covered, you're losing much of the elegance, and I hope that's just because SwiftUI isn't fully mature yet.
Sorry if I came across like I just thought your app was too basic. I was just trying to say that you might have happened to not run into any of SwiftUI's rough edges, no offense.
Regarding Core Data of course you're right that it's not directly related to SwiftUI but interfacing with it from a SwiftUI app feels very un-SwiftUI-like. I hope they have something in the pipeline for WWDC.
Yeah, I fully agree. But I also feel like if your use case isn't covered, you're losing much of the elegance, and I hope that's just because SwiftUI isn't fully mature yet.
Sorry if I came across like I just thought your app was too basic. I was just trying to say that you might have happened to not run into any of SwiftUI's rough edges, no offense.
Regarding Core Data of course you're right that it's not directly related to SwiftUI but interfacing with it from a SwiftUI app feels very un-SwiftUI-like. I hope they have something in the pipeline for WWDC.
I'm curious to hear about people's impressions of Swift the language. I haven't used it, but I'm keeping my eye on it, especially if it ever properly makes the leap out of the Apple ecosystem and into general purpose computing (yes, I'm aware that there are efforts, but to my knowledge none have resulted in many commercially successful applications--i.e., it isn't "mainstream" yet).
Speaking purely as someone who was using Objective-C before on Mac and iOS apps, it's incredibly productive. I can convert ideas into code very efficiently as the language allows you to be concise. How it compares to other modern languages, I can't comment on too much.
I will let others more qualified opine, but for me it was quite easy to use. I think Android has Kotlin, and imo Swift & Kotlin are not too different, which makes it easier for someone trying to build across two different platforms.
I like Swift’s use of generics and protocols (can’t remember if I am using the right terms), but I really didn’t like some of the more recent changes that obscured parts of the language behind unnecessarily obtuse DSLs.
That said, I think everybody enjoys what they use most, so I don’t see Swift leaving the Apple ecosystem in the near future.
These days I have been abducted by aliens, extra terrestrial beings, and program exclusively in Common Lisp, with its secret alien technology. Now THAT is a language I recommend, its simply amazing to me :)
I like Swift’s use of generics and protocols (can’t remember if I am using the right terms), but I really didn’t like some of the more recent changes that obscured parts of the language behind unnecessarily obtuse DSLs.
That said, I think everybody enjoys what they use most, so I don’t see Swift leaving the Apple ecosystem in the near future.
These days I have been abducted by aliens, extra terrestrial beings, and program exclusively in Common Lisp, with its secret alien technology. Now THAT is a language I recommend, its simply amazing to me :)
One of the biggest differences between Swift and Kotlin in my day to day is that breakpoints/debugging in Kotlin are glacially slow compared to the same in Swift (which itself is a fair deal more slow than debugging Objective-C). I'm not sure if this is due to JVM baggage or what, but it can make chasing down bugs in Android rather painful, slowing methods that normally run in a fraction of a second to take several minutes.
> That said, I think everybody enjoys what they use most, so I don’t see Swift leaving the Apple ecosystem in the near future
FWIW I've used Python and C++ the most, and I deeply dislike them. :)
FWIW I've used Python and C++ the most, and I deeply dislike them. :)
It's good, but it's not really anything special. It feels like a mixture of the good parts of Scala, Kotlin, and Rust. Unfortunately lately it's getting pulled in a weird direction by SwiftUI (property wrappers and function builders are just unnecessary). It will be interesting to see how their actor implementation plays out. For the most part though it feels very restricted with its need for Obj-C interop and I suspect it will never make the leap out of the Apple ecosystem simply because it doesn't offer enough over the aforementioned languages to be worth the trouble.
> It feels like a mixture of the good parts of Scala, Kotlin, and Rust.
Indeed, I think at the moment it's hands down the best language available for general application programming. The problem is the lack of libraries on non-apple platforms.
Indeed, I think at the moment it's hands down the best language available for general application programming. The problem is the lack of libraries on non-apple platforms.
Property wrappers are unnecessary but sometimes they allow for very clean code. For example you can create a wrapper to persist data to UserDefaults like
@Persisted(key: “myKey”) var myInt = 42
which is a really nice way to avoid a lot of boilerplate.
@Persisted(key: “myKey”) var myInt = 42
which is a really nice way to avoid a lot of boilerplate.
I would love to see more Mac-like views in SwiftUI. When I made my Mac app, I ended up wrapping an NSTableView to get all the Mac-native behaviors not offered by a List.
As a fellow former fee-paid developer, they'll get another $99 from me for the privilege of writing software that benefits their ecosystem when they dig up my corpse and pull it from the wallet I was buried with...
... but I still agree, it's to my loss. Damn good APIs, damn good integrated user experience. I decided I didn't want to feed the beast, but it's a really good beast.
... but I still agree, it's to my loss. Damn good APIs, damn good integrated user experience. I decided I didn't want to feed the beast, but it's a really good beast.
Maybe they will announce a fully specced out Swift language document which describe the ABI and all. They have been talking about ABI for years but still not much to see
LLVM got upstream support for the swifttailcc calling convention last week [0].
[0] https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/commit/82a0e808bb2cddc1...
[0] https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/commit/82a0e808bb2cddc1...
Unicode points for emoji are in the code reflected off the glasses of the developer on the left hand side:
1f374 = FORK AND KNIFE
1f634 = SLEEPING FACE
1F4BB = PERSONAL COMPUTER
Eat / Sleep / Code!
1f374 = FORK AND KNIFE
1f634 = SLEEPING FACE
1F4BB = PERSONAL COMPUTER
Eat / Sleep / Code!
Wow. Keen eye and sharp mind.
To the right it's the calendar on Jun 7 + the terminal; in center it's an iMessage conversation (one white bubble, one blue) but I don't think one can make out what that's about...
This is some clever marketing! I went back to look for that code.
Is there a name for this? It's not exactly an Easter egg, is it?
Is there a name for this? It's not exactly an Easter egg, is it?
I just want to say, this comment made my day.
You are truly Nerd Level 255
You are truly Nerd Level 255
This is new:
Digital Lounges
Join Apple engineers and designers throughout the week as they host text-based Q&As and special activities related to developer tools, SwiftUI, accessibility, and machine learning.
https://developer.apple.com/wwdc21/digital-lounges/
Digital Lounges
Join Apple engineers and designers throughout the week as they host text-based Q&As and special activities related to developer tools, SwiftUI, accessibility, and machine learning.
https://developer.apple.com/wwdc21/digital-lounges/
I wonder if something big will be announced about iPad software. I feel like there should be a reason why they put M1 into iPad Pros with a big jump in memory (from 6GB to 8/16GB) and processing power.
I want Xcode on iPad.
Sadly, I think that may be a ways down the line, but I would love to be wrong.
Sadly, I think that may be a ways down the line, but I would love to be wrong.
They could totally do this and it would be amazing. Would be a great but late reproach to the years of complaints about the demise of general-purpose computers that the iPad and iPhone have represented so far...
An iPad Pro running Xcode with an iPad Air as a side car second screen. That would be a super light weight all day dev kit. Somebody would probably even come up with a "case" that carries both iDevices and allows for both "screens" to be supported in various configurations.
A minimum of $1697, assuming you want the keyboard, for something with much less capability than a regular laptop.
But also something I could break down and carry with me in lots of contexts that I wouldn't bring my laptop.
I have a family member replacing her grad school MacBook Air with an iPad Pro now that she's returned to the industry and has a work computer again for her programming/bioinformatics needs. And a lot of her workflow could be done in Jupyter Notebooks, honestly.
I have a family member replacing her grad school MacBook Air with an iPad Pro now that she's returned to the industry and has a work computer again for her programming/bioinformatics needs. And a lot of her workflow could be done in Jupyter Notebooks, honestly.
> I have a family member replacing her grad school MacBook Air with an iPad Pro now that she's returned to the industry and has a work computer again for her programming/bioinformatics needs. And a lot of her workflow could be done in Jupyter Notebooks, honestly.
Programmer for over 15 years. Only reasons I bother to have any personal (non-work-supplied) computers other than an iPad or two (Pro + a Mini, if I had two) and an iPhone are: 1) I can't quite let go of PC gaming, 2) the Preview app on Mac (yes, really), and 3) frankly, piracy and related activities (setting up Kodi or Jellyfin stuff, emulation, major metadata-fixing sessions, that sort of thing)
On that last one, I'm increasingly unsure it's actually worth it. If that weren't the only (reasonable) way to get/enjoy certain things that I like quite a bit that point would probably go away and I'd have to seriously consider whether the other two were worth the cost, hassle, & space.
Programmer for over 15 years. Only reasons I bother to have any personal (non-work-supplied) computers other than an iPad or two (Pro + a Mini, if I had two) and an iPhone are: 1) I can't quite let go of PC gaming, 2) the Preview app on Mac (yes, really), and 3) frankly, piracy and related activities (setting up Kodi or Jellyfin stuff, emulation, major metadata-fixing sessions, that sort of thing)
On that last one, I'm increasingly unsure it's actually worth it. If that weren't the only (reasonable) way to get/enjoy certain things that I like quite a bit that point would probably go away and I'd have to seriously consider whether the other two were worth the cost, hassle, & space.
I used to be big into the private tracker/warez scene. Nowadays I find it generally easier to pay for streaming subscriptions (especially since I have less free time anyway and need less media to fill it). The things I miss most are foreign films and music- it is very hard to find 90%+ of foreign media for sale in USD!
My main problem at this point is that I'll need to manage some disk & backups, one way or another, to keep hold of a few things that are really hard/impossible to come by[0], or really inconvenient to use[1], if purchased legitimately.
So I've gotta either give up on 100% of those things forever, or manage a bunch of files & either local disks or a couple cloud storage providers (and, ugh, that extra expense), plus keep whatever I need to actually use those files working... indefinitely. If I choose the latter option, that's easiest on a Real Computer.
I wish someone would hurry up and get us nigh-indestructible, 100+ year lifespan, non-rewritable data crystals or something, so I can stop screwing around with storage and its ongoing costs and constant risk of failure or destruction-by-user-error, for anything that I want to keep long-term. Write two crystals, keep one to use and have a friend store the other in case of a fire. Done. Spend zero time worrying about it or spending more money on it unless one of the crystals (or whatever they are) is destroyed, which may very well never happen.
Oh, and then there's family photos and videos. Sure I can stick mine in iCloud and Dropbox easily enough, but what about ones coming in from family? That's a pain to manage all on iOS devices and stick in the same cloud storage as my auto-uploaded phone backups. So I'm back to managing disks or redundant bulk cloud file storage of some kind.
Sometimes I think I need to get some more Buddhism in my life and just accept not keeping all this stuff, and never experiencing any of it again. Let it all go. Everything dies, nothing's permanent.
[0] Example: Certain TV shows with the original music, that's been replaced in home/streaming releases over rights issues (similar things have happened too some games, too). Cuts/versions of movies that essentially don't exist outside the world of piracy (e.g. anything very close to the original theatrical version of Star Wars)
[1] Example: Any older console video game that's only available on used, physical media for the original, rapidly-aging-and-increasingly-annoying/expensive-to-keep-working-and-hooked-up-to-a-TV console. Say, Goldeneye on the N64, to pick a fairly famous example.
So I've gotta either give up on 100% of those things forever, or manage a bunch of files & either local disks or a couple cloud storage providers (and, ugh, that extra expense), plus keep whatever I need to actually use those files working... indefinitely. If I choose the latter option, that's easiest on a Real Computer.
I wish someone would hurry up and get us nigh-indestructible, 100+ year lifespan, non-rewritable data crystals or something, so I can stop screwing around with storage and its ongoing costs and constant risk of failure or destruction-by-user-error, for anything that I want to keep long-term. Write two crystals, keep one to use and have a friend store the other in case of a fire. Done. Spend zero time worrying about it or spending more money on it unless one of the crystals (or whatever they are) is destroyed, which may very well never happen.
Oh, and then there's family photos and videos. Sure I can stick mine in iCloud and Dropbox easily enough, but what about ones coming in from family? That's a pain to manage all on iOS devices and stick in the same cloud storage as my auto-uploaded phone backups. So I'm back to managing disks or redundant bulk cloud file storage of some kind.
Sometimes I think I need to get some more Buddhism in my life and just accept not keeping all this stuff, and never experiencing any of it again. Let it all go. Everything dies, nothing's permanent.
[0] Example: Certain TV shows with the original music, that's been replaced in home/streaming releases over rights issues (similar things have happened too some games, too). Cuts/versions of movies that essentially don't exist outside the world of piracy (e.g. anything very close to the original theatrical version of Star Wars)
[1] Example: Any older console video game that's only available on used, physical media for the original, rapidly-aging-and-increasingly-annoying/expensive-to-keep-working-and-hooked-up-to-a-TV console. Say, Goldeneye on the N64, to pick a fairly famous example.
> But also something I could break down and carry with me in lots of contexts that I wouldn't bring my laptop.
Can you elaborate on this? Surely two tablets, a case, and a keyboard is not going to be smaller / more compact than a laptop. I also can't think of any contexts where I would prefer a setup I need to set up and "break down".
Can you elaborate on this? Surely two tablets, a case, and a keyboard is not going to be smaller / more compact than a laptop. I also can't think of any contexts where I would prefer a setup I need to set up and "break down".
As in I can leave the second tablet behind, flip the Magic Keyboard up and slip the tablet into my bag. It takes less space than my laptop + charger and works with the smaller charger I would have for my phone anyway. And I can pull it out and use it in contexts where a laptop would be awkward. I prefer using my iPad over my Macbook while having a meal or sitting on a couch- to say nothing about using it outside at a park, being a passenger in a car, standing in a queue, or taking a break on a local hike.
A regular laptop can't replace my iPad Pro. If I were mainly an iOS dev, Xcode on the iPad Pro very well might let it replace my laptop. Either way, if you're doing much iOS dev, you're probably gonna have one iPad of some kind, and one iPhone around for testing, so that doesn't change much whether the main dev device is a MacBook or an iPad Pro.
I'm still mostly convinced that Apple's conception of the iPad is as an application console -- that doesn't preclude "pro-level" apps in some fields (e.g., Final Cut Pro or Logic) but may well preclude tools for using the iPad to develop its own applications unless they can radically change the way development works. My suspicion is that Apple's answer to "how do I develop on an iPad" for the foreseeable future will officially remain "may we interest you in this Apple Silicon-based laptop."
Apple has strong vendor lock-in. If you already have an iphone, apple watch, macbook, and you're in the market for a tablet, you are going to buy an ipad.
So if they make the ipads too capable, they eat their own laptop sales.
A company like samsung does not have as strong vendor lock in, so they may as well make their tablets fully capable computers, because they are not competing with themselves.
So if they make the ipads too capable, they eat their own laptop sales.
A company like samsung does not have as strong vendor lock in, so they may as well make their tablets fully capable computers, because they are not competing with themselves.
I think they're okay with eating their own laptop sales, at least if they're being eaten by iPad Pros. A 13" M1 MacBook Pro with 16GB of RAM and a 1TB SSD costs $1899; the same CPU, RAM and SSD in an iPad Pro costs $1799 -- which will easily cross over $2000 if you want to add a trackpad and keyboard to it.
This isn't to say that they don't like vendor lock-in, of course. If you do buy both an iPad and a MacBook they'll be happy to take your money. :) But I think they're positioning the Pro as a genuine laptop alternative -- just not for developers. (Or speaking from personal experience, technical writers.)
This isn't to say that they don't like vendor lock-in, of course. If you do buy both an iPad and a MacBook they'll be happy to take your money. :) But I think they're positioning the Pro as a genuine laptop alternative -- just not for developers. (Or speaking from personal experience, technical writers.)
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I wouldn't be super surprised to see Xcode for iPad, but I would guess it'd be super cut down, possibly only allowing iOS development in the strictest most Apple-approved only kind of way.
Bloomberg says not too radical changes for the iPad for iOS 15 (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-22/apple-pla...) but that doesn't preclude Apple from releasing Pro apps that make full use of the M1.
We might see some form of virtualization. With M1 in iPad, the hardware support is there and apparently the Hypervisor.framework we know from macOS is now present on iOS as well.
https://twitter.com/never_released/status/125053374055785267...
https://twitter.com/never_released/status/125053374055785267...
Virtualization support has been there a while, paravirtualization I believe is new in A14/M1. The iPhone 12 at least seems to disable the hardware needed to run the hypervisor within the bootloader.
Somehow I talked myself into buying the 11" M1 iPad Pro, and now I'm beginning to wonder why in the world I did that. I really have no use case for that amount of power in an iPad.
I guess it means I'm at least pretty future proofed if Apple ever decides to give iPadOS the attention it deserves.
(And add me to the list of people who thinks they should just port macOS to the iPad already. I don't think they ever will, though.)
I guess it means I'm at least pretty future proofed if Apple ever decides to give iPadOS the attention it deserves.
(And add me to the list of people who thinks they should just port macOS to the iPad already. I don't think they ever will, though.)
I bought a used 2018 Pro fully specced out because it was smashed up and a bargain. Replaced the screen for minimal cost and it's now good as new. Folio, Pencil 2, the works.
Even the A12X (which benchmarks nowhere close to the M1) is overkill by a very long way. Especially now, given that it gathers dust most of the time.
Multi-user would at least a little more useful.
Honestly I'm going with Occam's Razor. I think the M1 iPad Pro exists for the same reason as the 2021 Apple TV. They had the chips.
Even the A12X (which benchmarks nowhere close to the M1) is overkill by a very long way. Especially now, given that it gathers dust most of the time.
Multi-user would at least a little more useful.
Honestly I'm going with Occam's Razor. I think the M1 iPad Pro exists for the same reason as the 2021 Apple TV. They had the chips.
People tend to use iPads for a very long time like 5-6 or even 7 years. So future-proofing is a good choice when it comes to iPads. Besides, it is a really good product, my iPad Mini 4 was my favorite piece of hardware for a long time. I think about buying an 11" M1 iPad Pro myself as well.
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I gave my old iPad 2 some years ago to my mom, and somehow she’s still using it to these days (although apps are dropping support for iOS 9.3.5 one after another).
Same, I was asking myself that this weekend as I was driving to BestBuy to pick it up.
Something like booting macOS on an iPad Pro?
Gruber hints at this here: https://daringfireball.net/2021/05/the_2021_m1_ipad_pros
"If you already love iPadOS, well, you’re in luck — go out and buy a new iPad Pro and I assure you, you’ll be delighted. For the rest of us, I have a feeling we need to see iPadOS 15 before we experience the true potential of these new (or any recent) iPad Pros.
Three weeks until WWDC. "
"If you already love iPadOS, well, you’re in luck — go out and buy a new iPad Pro and I assure you, you’ll be delighted. For the rest of us, I have a feeling we need to see iPadOS 15 before we experience the true potential of these new (or any recent) iPad Pros.
Three weeks until WWDC. "
Thats not necessarily because he knows anything. Apple is pretty predictable at the macro level.
In March they release significant changes and additions which do not have significant breaking impact. These are often targeting educational/business features (MDM management, classroom management, iPad usage), specifically because of the annual educational buying cycle requires the ability to evaluate in April/May to plan fall purchasing. This is also considered the last chance to deprecate functionality on the current version.
In June they announce new features and changes that will have breaking impacts on existing code in their annual September major release.
If Apple doesn't have new iPadOS functionality announced in a few weeks, the expectation is that the next significant functionality would be March 2022, and that still would be limited to things which do not break existing iPadOS code.
In March they release significant changes and additions which do not have significant breaking impact. These are often targeting educational/business features (MDM management, classroom management, iPad usage), specifically because of the annual educational buying cycle requires the ability to evaluate in April/May to plan fall purchasing. This is also considered the last chance to deprecate functionality on the current version.
In June they announce new features and changes that will have breaking impacts on existing code in their annual September major release.
If Apple doesn't have new iPadOS functionality announced in a few weeks, the expectation is that the next significant functionality would be March 2022, and that still would be limited to things which do not break existing iPadOS code.
I think Gruber is being extremely optimistic here.
It is indeed very strange that Apple is shipping new iPads every year, each revision making iPadOS even more comically out of touch with the hardware on which it runs.
I'm sure Apple is planning something but we could just as easily be waiting another 2 years before iPadOS takes advantage of hardware capabilities, since Apple does plan ahead but they never tell us what they're planning.
iPad-buyers are clearly fine with the current state of iPadOS, and Apple is clearly happy with the number of iPad-buyers. They're in no rush.
It is indeed very strange that Apple is shipping new iPads every year, each revision making iPadOS even more comically out of touch with the hardware on which it runs.
I'm sure Apple is planning something but we could just as easily be waiting another 2 years before iPadOS takes advantage of hardware capabilities, since Apple does plan ahead but they never tell us what they're planning.
iPad-buyers are clearly fine with the current state of iPadOS, and Apple is clearly happy with the number of iPad-buyers. They're in no rush.
I suspect the split between iOS and iPadOS was about slowly moving iPadOS closer to the mac ("what if we made a desktop OS based on the iOS app security sandboxing model?")
Meanwhile, they have been moving macOS to have more of the libraries and look and feel of iPadOS, and having catalyst be both a build target for making mac apps, and to reuse the libraries for running iOS/iPadOS-compiled apps on M1.
So I don't suspect they use it for anything like virtualizing macOS - they seem to instead be trying to build that part of the bridging functionality into the mac.
I suspect instead it is about giving the Pro model enough head room for more serious porting of "pro apps" to the iPad.
Meanwhile, they have been moving macOS to have more of the libraries and look and feel of iPadOS, and having catalyst be both a build target for making mac apps, and to reuse the libraries for running iOS/iPadOS-compiled apps on M1.
So I don't suspect they use it for anything like virtualizing macOS - they seem to instead be trying to build that part of the bridging functionality into the mac.
I suspect instead it is about giving the Pro model enough head room for more serious porting of "pro apps" to the iPad.
I was looking for a reason to not buy a new M1 laptop and finally found one. If it is made in China then it is a deal breaker for me. I'll buy a Mac when it is made ethically.
I'm excited for new features in Safari. Apple added support for web extensions last year and has slowly been adding new features to Safari. Hopefully we can get feature parity with Chrome and start getting a fraction of Chrome's extension library.
I wonder if they'll ever get round to adding a date picker in safari desktop?
I'm hoping Safari gets on the vertical tabs bandwagon. Currently Edge and Vivaldi have this as options but I don't think either has nailed the implementation. Feels like something Apple would probably get right.
It would be great if they finalize the loading="lazy"attribute. Safari is the last holdout amongst the big browsers for this (for images) and I look forward to removing lazy loading javascript from my website.
Crossing my fingers for some type of emulation support that would allow for running a Windows virtual machine (and x86/64 apps).
Several years ago, I stopped buying new iPads because Apple still hadn’t made it a multiuser device with user switching and profiles. That feature was introduced for the education market, but it seemed to rely too much on iCloud for user data restoration and didn’t seem to be that good.
Now that the base hardware (especially RAM) is a lot better and the latest iPad is using the same processor as on the latest Macs (as of now), there is no excuse…except for Apple’s poor vision and execution of iPadOS…for keeping the iPad as a single user device.
Now that the base hardware (especially RAM) is a lot better and the latest iPad is using the same processor as on the latest Macs (as of now), there is no excuse…except for Apple’s poor vision and execution of iPadOS…for keeping the iPad as a single user device.
>> except for Apple’s poor vision and execution of iPadOS
Or seen as an opportunity to sell an iPad for every member of the household.
Windows, Android, and ChromeOS tablets all have multiuser and generally compete at the price sensitive low end who are also less likely to buy multiple iPads.
I wonder how many iPad buyers are put off by that lack. I certainly would appreciate it; the current options for sharing an iPad aren't great, and I'd rather have an iPad than any of those other multiuser tablets.
Or seen as an opportunity to sell an iPad for every member of the household.
Windows, Android, and ChromeOS tablets all have multiuser and generally compete at the price sensitive low end who are also less likely to buy multiple iPads.
I wonder how many iPad buyers are put off by that lack. I certainly would appreciate it; the current options for sharing an iPad aren't great, and I'd rather have an iPad than any of those other multiuser tablets.
Outside of the enterprise context more families than not want the app used by one person to be accessible to the other etc.
Inside apps you do have multi-profiles - when you start netflix it prompts for the profile of the user.
Inside apps you do have multi-profiles - when you start netflix it prompts for the profile of the user.
I don't really want family members using my gmail account or my bank account access. Do people just not check email on their iPads?
I totally agree - we use our ipad as the entertainment device. I do not sync email on it.
That said, my parents use the ipad for email and don't care about it being shared - they keep it on kitchen counter. My friends parents use one as well in that way and actually use a shared email address as well for all their email. Different generations.
I do think multi-profile should show up eventually. But apple has optimized for other things first (a very personal device).
That said, my parents use the ipad for email and don't care about it being shared - they keep it on kitchen counter. My friends parents use one as well in that way and actually use a shared email address as well for all their email. Different generations.
I do think multi-profile should show up eventually. But apple has optimized for other things first (a very personal device).
> Or seen as an opportunity to sell an iPad for every member of the household.
Which is messed up for company claiming to "deeply care" about technology addiction and implement downtime features on your device.
Which is messed up for company claiming to "deeply care" about technology addiction and implement downtime features on your device.
It’s also a very convenient way to draw class barriers in order to maintain the brand image
Companies exist to make money.
Ahh yes, Apple's poor vision and execution - I usually can find a statement like this on HN re: Apple.
You can do shared ipad through an MDM so MDM admin (which could be you) decides on root level decisions.
You can do shared ipad through an MDM so MDM admin (which could be you) decides on root level decisions.
That's disingenuous.
MDM requires (at best) rolling back quite a few security protections and is far from a user-friendly solution.
MDM requires (at best) rolling back quite a few security protections and is far from a user-friendly solution.
I meant to point out that apple's vision of a very personal device to most people (locked down, photos, music etc etc) was different than the blackberry / utility model from before.
This isn't poor vision, it's a different vision, and has made them a lot of money.
I can't STAND the USB-C latency on recording music on the ipad, so I refuse to get (and have returned) the new ones. Other issues as well without question have driven me crazy. But can't argue with results, I'm happier with my iphone than an android and my wife likes her super old but still updated phone. And it's tiring to see the apple are idiots, apple has no vision or execution type comments, because they sell a super complex product at incredible volumes to picky users with surprising logistics and manufacturing success
This isn't poor vision, it's a different vision, and has made them a lot of money.
I can't STAND the USB-C latency on recording music on the ipad, so I refuse to get (and have returned) the new ones. Other issues as well without question have driven me crazy. But can't argue with results, I'm happier with my iphone than an android and my wife likes her super old but still updated phone. And it's tiring to see the apple are idiots, apple has no vision or execution type comments, because they sell a super complex product at incredible volumes to picky users with surprising logistics and manufacturing success
I’m going to be disappointed if we don’t get Xcode on iPad OS.
The new iPad Pro is so tempting. It could be my one true device for short trips if I could write and deploy code comfortably on it.
The new iPad Pro is so tempting. It could be my one true device for short trips if I could write and deploy code comfortably on it.
XCode on iPad is a dream come true for me. I love to use my iPad in bed or laying on a couch or reclining in a chair. While iPad may never become the go-to way to write hundreds of loc, it would be fantastic to have the capability to make iOS apps on iOS devices, and to be able to review and test code away from my desk.
In other news iOS 14.6 just dropped because there are 8 0-day remote code execution bugs floating around at the moment. We need an alternative to Safari on iOS. I personally can't wait for Fuchsia to launch, at least they have a sensible security model to build on top of.
This falls into the category of an announcement of an announcement. In this case, I suppose it's the announcement of a portfolio of announcements.
The HN heuristics for such cases are:
(1) announcements of announcements are off topic (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...)
(2) there's no harm in waiting (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...).
The HN heuristics for such cases are:
(1) announcements of announcements are off topic (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...)
(2) there's no harm in waiting (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...).
Yes, I hear people who want to reply and tell me why I should be excited about these things, but I also suspect that there are others agree with me.