Ask HN: Are Unpaid Internships Unethical?
14 comments
Is he volunteering?
Unpaid internship is in my opinion something vastly different from an amateur taking on a task on a volunteer basis. The unpaid internship is an arrangement where you (whether true or not) are putting off the vibe that the experience or notoriety of the position is it's own reward in the form of social capital. I don't offer those, nor do I encourage it.
Volunteer opportunities are different. You take on the risk for delivery of the product, and you give an amateur a shot at building skills. You're still on the hook for ultimate success. That's just between you and them.
If you are even considering doing something like tracking hours, you should be paying something, anything, even if under the table. We as a society need to value each other's time, or what does the sacrfice of one's time at no financial restitution even stand for or symbolize?
You can argue the difference is a matter of quibbles semantics, but my moral compass pegs unethical unpaid internships, and volunteering a healthy investment of an individual's time in building their skills and employability.
Unpaid internship is in my opinion something vastly different from an amateur taking on a task on a volunteer basis. The unpaid internship is an arrangement where you (whether true or not) are putting off the vibe that the experience or notoriety of the position is it's own reward in the form of social capital. I don't offer those, nor do I encourage it.
Volunteer opportunities are different. You take on the risk for delivery of the product, and you give an amateur a shot at building skills. You're still on the hook for ultimate success. That's just between you and them.
If you are even considering doing something like tracking hours, you should be paying something, anything, even if under the table. We as a society need to value each other's time, or what does the sacrfice of one's time at no financial restitution even stand for or symbolize?
You can argue the difference is a matter of quibbles semantics, but my moral compass pegs unethical unpaid internships, and volunteering a healthy investment of an individual's time in building their skills and employability.
Thanks. Thats an interesting perspective. How do distinguish between a guy volunteering vs me finding a guy willing to come and work with me? Is the latter what you call an internship while the former is volunteering?
If he's doing work for you, and you still accept you may not get what you want at no lasting repercussions to him, it does degenerate to how you feel about it and present it. It really only gets into the nailed down semantics in my model when you're producing something for someone else. He volunteers to do work, you sink the risk of letting him, knowing you may still be on the hook for delivery if it goes bad. If things work out well, good business. If they don't you took a gamble, and got bit.
In your case it really comes down to intent. If you're out for free labor, no bueno. If you're out for helping him and maybe getting something you can work with at the end of it? Bueno.
I just know that even if it started with the understanding you wouldn't pay them, I'd still put aside something for them in the end, especially if the Quality is good.
In your case it really comes down to intent. If you're out for free labor, no bueno. If you're out for helping him and maybe getting something you can work with at the end of it? Bueno.
I just know that even if it started with the understanding you wouldn't pay them, I'd still put aside something for them in the end, especially if the Quality is good.
Thanks. I will make sure to pay him a small amount.
You've sort of set it up to sound unethical. If you framed it as collaboration on a not-for-profit project that sounds fine. But you're framing it as "making him work" and giving minimum hourly requirements. Why?
Thanks for replying and pointing out the framing. I am not going to set minimum hourly requirements but I also dont want him to work 3-4 hours a week and expect to see results. I said "making him work", because he will be ultimately working on my idea. But yes, the wording could be better. May be "collaborate " on my idea or some such thing
I started with the industry as an unpaid intern, and few decades down the road appreciate the gamble someone has taken on me.
The critics claim unpaid internships benefit those who are richer (or those whose parents are more patient), but it’s not clear if banning unpaid internships will increase the total number of below-entry-level employment opportunities, as menial tasks do not generate enough revenue to justify paying a wage.
At 21 I’d guess the biggest priority is getting some kind of project on one’s resume.
The critics claim unpaid internships benefit those who are richer (or those whose parents are more patient), but it’s not clear if banning unpaid internships will increase the total number of below-entry-level employment opportunities, as menial tasks do not generate enough revenue to justify paying a wage.
At 21 I’d guess the biggest priority is getting some kind of project on one’s resume.
Thanks for the perspective. Exactly like you said, tasks I assign are menial/entry level and make no monetary returns for me, but will be really helpful to the intern.
> The kid has to work atleast 20hours per week for 3 months, on the project.
Who determines hours/project length?
Assuming this project may be considered a ‘work practicum’ potentially for academic credit—- and the kid is undertaking this work to gain hands-on experience, this a good and worthy cause.
Who determines hours/project length?
Assuming this project may be considered a ‘work practicum’ potentially for academic credit—- and the kid is undertaking this work to gain hands-on experience, this a good and worthy cause.
Hours will be mutually determined but a minimum number of hours a week will help in getting out something tangible.
As per academic credit, it is a great point. Thx
As per academic credit, it is a great point. Thx
If it actually trains him and gets him ready for a job and is not preventing him from supporting himself currently, I see no problem with this.
The argument against unpaid internships is usually that it means only the upper classes get access to a jobs pipeline for the better jobs because very poor people can't afford to work for free.
But I've done freelance work at below minimum wage rates because I controlled my hours and was paid by the "piece," not by the hour, and that helped me develop skills and an income. I was homeless at the time and too sick to work a minimum wage job.
We let privileged people work for "nothing" in order to have a shot at something better. That's the typical deal for a lot of company founders.
Saying that non rich people aren't allowed to work for little or nothing in order to better themselves is a form of denying them rights and access to a better life. It helps keep them stuck in minimum wage jobs with no hope of a better future.
As long as this isn't some undue hardship, some bait and switch deal where he is enticed with promises you have no plans to fulfill and he actually gets value out of it, I see no problem with this.
Gambling on something better is a long human tradition. All people should be allowed to make that choice if they so desire.
They just shouldn't be conned into "gambling" on something with no real payoff for themselves like so many college students have done in recent years where they are saddled with student loans, the glut of degreed individuals means their degree isn't practically a guarantee of a good salary and the only people benefiting are the banks issuing the loans and raking in the interest.
The argument against unpaid internships is usually that it means only the upper classes get access to a jobs pipeline for the better jobs because very poor people can't afford to work for free.
But I've done freelance work at below minimum wage rates because I controlled my hours and was paid by the "piece," not by the hour, and that helped me develop skills and an income. I was homeless at the time and too sick to work a minimum wage job.
We let privileged people work for "nothing" in order to have a shot at something better. That's the typical deal for a lot of company founders.
Saying that non rich people aren't allowed to work for little or nothing in order to better themselves is a form of denying them rights and access to a better life. It helps keep them stuck in minimum wage jobs with no hope of a better future.
As long as this isn't some undue hardship, some bait and switch deal where he is enticed with promises you have no plans to fulfill and he actually gets value out of it, I see no problem with this.
Gambling on something better is a long human tradition. All people should be allowed to make that choice if they so desire.
They just shouldn't be conned into "gambling" on something with no real payoff for themselves like so many college students have done in recent years where they are saddled with student loans, the glut of degreed individuals means their degree isn't practically a guarantee of a good salary and the only people benefiting are the banks issuing the loans and raking in the interest.
Thanks. I have no promises to make beyond telling him he will develop relevant job skills. If he doesnt like it after a month or so, he can happily walk away without loosing any money.
Nobody is forcing him to take the internship.
True but I want to be bit more ethical than saying noone is forcing him. I dont want to take "advantage" of his situation.
Not that this is an indivdual to individual interaction and no company is involved. The kid has to work atleast 20hours per week for 3 months, on the project.