Old iPhones become faster if you change the region to France(gizchina.com)
gizchina.com
Old iPhones become faster if you change the region to France
https://www.gizchina.com/2021/08/23/old-iphones-become-faster-if-you-change-the-region-to-france/
141 comments
There is also another point that I forgot, and that is a main point of the french fine I think.
In itself, if explicitly warned and controlled by the user, throttling to work better with an old battery would not be so bad.
But the thing is that, if your phone (or laptop) does not last long anymore on battery before shutting down, but otherwise works normally, you know that it is just the battery that is dead and that needs to be replaced.
But, if the phone becomes slower/sluggish, most non tech users will think "my phone is slow because it is old, it's normal aging, so I need to change it with a new one".
And worse, some will even think that their memory was wrong and that it is just that the new models are so fast and reactive that they realize how slow was their previous phone without them realizing.
This makes me think about the case of Windows. It is well known that a computer with Windows will go slower and slower time after time as the system get messy. Based on that, I can't count the number of persons that I have met that were thinking of changing their computer for a new one because the old one "became slow because of its age". When the real solution was simply to reinstall Windows to have a fresh system!
In itself, if explicitly warned and controlled by the user, throttling to work better with an old battery would not be so bad.
But the thing is that, if your phone (or laptop) does not last long anymore on battery before shutting down, but otherwise works normally, you know that it is just the battery that is dead and that needs to be replaced.
But, if the phone becomes slower/sluggish, most non tech users will think "my phone is slow because it is old, it's normal aging, so I need to change it with a new one".
And worse, some will even think that their memory was wrong and that it is just that the new models are so fast and reactive that they realize how slow was their previous phone without them realizing.
This makes me think about the case of Windows. It is well known that a computer with Windows will go slower and slower time after time as the system get messy. Based on that, I can't count the number of persons that I have met that were thinking of changing their computer for a new one because the old one "became slow because of its age". When the real solution was simply to reinstall Windows to have a fresh system!
> This makes me think about the case of Windows.
A certain graphics card manufacturer has claimed that graphics cards (in continual use) reduces their performance by around 10% each year. Of course, its a near-myth, only saved by the fact that certain components (like fans and the thermal interface on certain cards) loses their performance due to factors beyond their control.
The solution is obviously to clean the damn thing.
A certain graphics card manufacturer has claimed that graphics cards (in continual use) reduces their performance by around 10% each year. Of course, its a near-myth, only saved by the fact that certain components (like fans and the thermal interface on certain cards) loses their performance due to factors beyond their control.
The solution is obviously to clean the damn thing.
That reminds me… Thanks!
And add new thermal paste, i can recommend Thermal Grizzlys' stuff.
Disclaimer: contented customer
Disclaimer: contented customer
What's wrong with using normal thermal pastes, like toothpaste? Or Vegemite, if you're Australian, I suppose.
http://www.dansdata.com/goop.htm
http://www.dansdata.com/goop.htm
I'm not sure what the current situation is, but at least a few years ago my experience with both Nvidia and AMD was that when upgrading past a certain driver version, fps would tend to decrease again.
Due to the large number of architectures and models churned out by AMD/Nvidia, when releasing drivers, they tend to concentrate on the performance of the latest and greatest cards, and throw a bone to the previous architecture. Older cards are absolutely neglected and may have perf regression after upgrading drivers.
Linus Tech Tips addressed this claim in a recent video comparing GPUs that were used for years to mine crypto vs like new identical or similar GPUs. Turns out it's barely 1% a year and that's likely a difference in cooling capacity from a dusty card.
Meh, I don't know. I have one of those older iPhones (a 7) whose battery health went somewhat down (around 80% or below) and the phone felt kinda sluggish. I then disabled the "peak protection" or whatever it was called, and then it started randomly shutting down, while not being particularly smoother. It should be noted I don't use intensive apps, such as games.
After I had the battery changed, everything went back to normal. Smooth, no random shutdowns, etc. And the battery change cost me a whopping 60 euros out the door at an Apple authorized service center (I even booked the repair through the Apple website).
Now don't get me wrong, if I had the choice between a phone with or without a removable battery, I'd go for the former every time, even if it meant it would be bigger. Before the iPhone, I had a Galaxy S5 and I never had an issue with its thickness.
But, in more practical terms, all the phones I had before the iPhone (Galaxy S 1, 3, 5) had removable batteries. The 1 I actually bought used, and it came with 2 spare batteries. The only reason those batteries saw any action was because I tried to use them from time to time to not let them die.
Now cost-wise, by the end of the GS5's life, the battery started bulging and didn't last as long, so I was looking to buy a new one. A replacement Samsung battery costed 60 to 70 euros, the same price as the iPhone replacement battery, and indeed, most other phone batteries. So I wouldn't say Apple is gouging customers on this particular issue, at least not any more than other brands.
After I had the battery changed, everything went back to normal. Smooth, no random shutdowns, etc. And the battery change cost me a whopping 60 euros out the door at an Apple authorized service center (I even booked the repair through the Apple website).
Now don't get me wrong, if I had the choice between a phone with or without a removable battery, I'd go for the former every time, even if it meant it would be bigger. Before the iPhone, I had a Galaxy S5 and I never had an issue with its thickness.
But, in more practical terms, all the phones I had before the iPhone (Galaxy S 1, 3, 5) had removable batteries. The 1 I actually bought used, and it came with 2 spare batteries. The only reason those batteries saw any action was because I tried to use them from time to time to not let them die.
Now cost-wise, by the end of the GS5's life, the battery started bulging and didn't last as long, so I was looking to buy a new one. A replacement Samsung battery costed 60 to 70 euros, the same price as the iPhone replacement battery, and indeed, most other phone batteries. So I wouldn't say Apple is gouging customers on this particular issue, at least not any more than other brands.
The reason the battery replacement is possible and cheap is because Apple was sued to oblivion due to these throttling issues.
I'd be curious what the prices were before this lawsuit.
[0] is a September, 2019 article from France, stating that prices went up to 55 euros for the iPhone 7 and similar models. Since I paid 60 one year ago, that means that the trend is upward, right?
I've also seen somewhere (can't find it right now) that talks specifically about the throttling issue, and apparently this concerns a one-time battery replacement for 29 euros.
This leads me to believe that the 60 euros I've paid were the "regular price", not some discount because of the lawsuit. But maybe prices have been brought down, broadly speaking, as a side effect.
---
[0] https://www.igen.fr/iphone/2019/09/apple-augmente-le-prix-du...
[0] is a September, 2019 article from France, stating that prices went up to 55 euros for the iPhone 7 and similar models. Since I paid 60 one year ago, that means that the trend is upward, right?
I've also seen somewhere (can't find it right now) that talks specifically about the throttling issue, and apparently this concerns a one-time battery replacement for 29 euros.
This leads me to believe that the 60 euros I've paid were the "regular price", not some discount because of the lawsuit. But maybe prices have been brought down, broadly speaking, as a side effect.
---
[0] https://www.igen.fr/iphone/2019/09/apple-augmente-le-prix-du...
Certified repair implies there are uncertified shops too, which will replace it for less. NSI.
iPhone battery replacement was always possible and cost about the same.
Your memory is a bit off. You could use a CPU monitoring app to see different speeds on newer and older batteries. You’re right that it didn’t speed up when plugged in.
I think iPhones don't run directly off external power even when plugged in -- they charge the battery, and run from that. For evidence, note that if your battery is completely dead, you need to provide power for a few minutes to get it some baseline amount of charge before you can turn the phone on.
It feels plausible that a battery with bad peak voltage could still be unreliable even while being actively charged, so it'd make sense if the throttling remained.
It feels plausible that a battery with bad peak voltage could still be unreliable even while being actively charged, so it'd make sense if the throttling remained.
I'm no EE, but I think Kirchoff's current law says something about that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff%27s_circuit_laws#Kir...
The battery is either charging or discharging on net.
I sometimes see colloquialisms like "The laptop isn't really running off AC power, the AC is charging the battery and the laptop is discharging it to run". I also see people say that it's bad to keep a phone or laptop on its charger all day, and I usually do that to no ill effect, so I stopped trusting common wisdom on batteries.
When you get down to the cell level, each cell has 2 terminals, and it's either charging or discharging, right? Unless the charge circuit is doing some green-blue trick to charge half the cells and discharge the others, nothing that runs off a battery can be running AC "through" the battery. They taught us in A+ class that UPS' run power "through" the battery but I think it's objectively wrong. Especially if it's a lead-acid battery which I _know_ only has two terminals.
You can draw a boundary around the battery and charging stuff and say, if 90 watts is going in and the computer is pulling 80 watts, the battery must be charging at 10 watts. If the computer is pulling 120 watts, the battery must be discharging at 30 watts. But there is not 90 watts of power flowing "through" the battery in either case. Adding a load just causes it to charge slower, or discharge instead of charging.
It's probably true that the power supply only converts from mains to whatever the battery charger wants, and there's no path from mains to the load without going through the battery's voltage, but as other posters said, the reason you can't run some phones with a dead battery is more related to peak load. I have definitely owned mobile hardware that worked _pretty well_ without a battery, but worked better with a battery to smooth out load during startup or CPU load spikes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff%27s_circuit_laws#Kir...
The battery is either charging or discharging on net.
I sometimes see colloquialisms like "The laptop isn't really running off AC power, the AC is charging the battery and the laptop is discharging it to run". I also see people say that it's bad to keep a phone or laptop on its charger all day, and I usually do that to no ill effect, so I stopped trusting common wisdom on batteries.
When you get down to the cell level, each cell has 2 terminals, and it's either charging or discharging, right? Unless the charge circuit is doing some green-blue trick to charge half the cells and discharge the others, nothing that runs off a battery can be running AC "through" the battery. They taught us in A+ class that UPS' run power "through" the battery but I think it's objectively wrong. Especially if it's a lead-acid battery which I _know_ only has two terminals.
You can draw a boundary around the battery and charging stuff and say, if 90 watts is going in and the computer is pulling 80 watts, the battery must be charging at 10 watts. If the computer is pulling 120 watts, the battery must be discharging at 30 watts. But there is not 90 watts of power flowing "through" the battery in either case. Adding a load just causes it to charge slower, or discharge instead of charging.
It's probably true that the power supply only converts from mains to whatever the battery charger wants, and there's no path from mains to the load without going through the battery's voltage, but as other posters said, the reason you can't run some phones with a dead battery is more related to peak load. I have definitely owned mobile hardware that worked _pretty well_ without a battery, but worked better with a battery to smooth out load during startup or CPU load spikes.
Could you not have some sort of circuitry that causes the battery to be completely bypassed when AC is connected
(Obviously the AC would be going through a power supply to convert it to DC of the proper voltage, but still)
(Obviously the AC would be going through a power supply to convert it to DC of the proper voltage, but still)
TI has a nice overview of how most of these systems work.
https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt769/slyt769.pdf
Figure 1 shows the architecture pretty much everything uses. It's done this way because it's simple and effective.
Basically ReactiveJelly has it right and there is KCL at a node that joins the DC output of the power adapter, the system and the battery. When the adapter is present, if the system draws more than the adapter can supply, the difference comes from the battery, discharging it. if the adapter can provide more than the system needs the difference goes to the battery, charging it.
The main issue is modern systems can change their load way faster than the adapter can respond. Therefore it's up to the battery to make up the difference during these rapid transients preventing system shutdown. As long as it doesn't happen too much (and the system might choose to throttle to guarantee this if is not true) the battery charges on average.
In the end the systems are a complicated thing because they are balancing: safety, battery lifetime, wanting to support many sizes of adapters, thermal considerations, charge time and system performance. And everyone has their own opinions on how to prioritize things.
Figure 1 shows the architecture pretty much everything uses. It's done this way because it's simple and effective.
Basically ReactiveJelly has it right and there is KCL at a node that joins the DC output of the power adapter, the system and the battery. When the adapter is present, if the system draws more than the adapter can supply, the difference comes from the battery, discharging it. if the adapter can provide more than the system needs the difference goes to the battery, charging it.
The main issue is modern systems can change their load way faster than the adapter can respond. Therefore it's up to the battery to make up the difference during these rapid transients preventing system shutdown. As long as it doesn't happen too much (and the system might choose to throttle to guarantee this if is not true) the battery charges on average.
In the end the systems are a complicated thing because they are balancing: safety, battery lifetime, wanting to support many sizes of adapters, thermal considerations, charge time and system performance. And everyone has their own opinions on how to prioritize things.
I’v found this out when looking at what are the purpose of various chips on MacBook Air motherboard.
And suddenly things that didn’t make sense now makes sense: laptop with a dead battery is unbearably slow due to CPU throttling to 600 or 800Mhz. Unusable piece of trash until battery changed.
And suddenly things that didn’t make sense now makes sense: laptop with a dead battery is unbearably slow due to CPU throttling to 600 or 800Mhz. Unusable piece of trash until battery changed.
I had few phone which can run off the charger without battery.
The power spike issues is easily solved with some judiciously placed capacitors.
But the overall issue of Pphone > Pdc longer than few millisecons can only be solved by shipping more poweful power supply.
The power spike issues is easily solved with some judiciously placed capacitors.
But the overall issue of Pphone > Pdc longer than few millisecons can only be solved by shipping more poweful power supply.
Do most phone chargers supply enough current to charge the phone when it’s running at full power?
Most phones don't run directly from mains with an empty or removed battery.
The reason is that the power supply isn't guaranteed to be able to cope with the short peaks in power like from the various radios. It could lead to brownouts. And it's not a common enough usecase for manufacturers to bother supporting.
The reason is that the power supply isn't guaranteed to be able to cope with the short peaks in power like from the various radios. It could lead to brownouts. And it's not a common enough usecase for manufacturers to bother supporting.
> And it's not a common enough usecase for manufacturers to bother supporting.
Woah now, I would like to disagree with that, phones running out of a charge is a pretty regular occurrence. In fact, I'd say the only reason people panic so often to keep a charge is because the fucking things won't turn back on immediately. shakes fist at sky It would be fucking GREAT if I could use it (turn it on) immediately upon plugging it into a power source. I have been pissed off about not being able to use my iPhone (or any device) while plugged in since "they" (electronics manufacturers) started doing this shit. Truly, I've seen grown ass people thrown into a panic because their phone is about to die and I promise 80% of that panic (for a plethora of reasons from silly to necessary) would be alleviated if they knew they could just plug the damn thing in and have it turn on immediately.
Edit: moar better grammar.
Woah now, I would like to disagree with that, phones running out of a charge is a pretty regular occurrence. In fact, I'd say the only reason people panic so often to keep a charge is because the fucking things won't turn back on immediately. shakes fist at sky It would be fucking GREAT if I could use it (turn it on) immediately upon plugging it into a power source. I have been pissed off about not being able to use my iPhone (or any device) while plugged in since "they" (electronics manufacturers) started doing this shit. Truly, I've seen grown ass people thrown into a panic because their phone is about to die and I promise 80% of that panic (for a plethora of reasons from silly to necessary) would be alleviated if they knew they could just plug the damn thing in and have it turn on immediately.
Edit: moar better grammar.
I have one phone that once got into a reboot loop: its battery was flat, so I’d provide it with a USB power source, it’d charge the battery for about five seconds, then it’d try to start up automatically (without me telling it to), but that would stop it charging the battery from which is all it seems to be willing to draw from at that stage of boot, so after another about five seconds it’d die of a flat battery again, then after another few seconds it’d recognise the power source and start the loop again. The entire cycle took about 17 seconds, like clockwork. Not sure quite why it went like that; historically it had been willing to charge from flat, and since then I think it is too, though I haven’t used it much for the last couple of years, and I can’t remember whether it normally powers on automatically in this case. I tried almost all combinations of four USB cables and five power sources (Surface Book, car with 12V → USB adapter, Surface Book AC adapter which has an additional USB outlet, Surface Dock, and a wall charger) before finding some combination that worked, not triggering the untimely and defective power-on.
I will say that I've used a smartphone for about a decade now, and I can count on one hand the number of times it has actually run out of charge. (With hitting <5% being about as infrequent.)
Usage patterns clearly vary wildly, here. :D
Usage patterns clearly vary wildly, here. :D
That's likely because you've incorporated the "phone battery dance" so strongly into your life, that you don't even notice it anymore.
I agree with GP here - most adults (and teenagers) organize their day in part around keeping their phone charged.
I agree with GP here - most adults (and teenagers) organize their day in part around keeping their phone charged.
A battery management IC will be able to discern a battery's health.
Not saying you're wrong, but it could easily be the case that the iphone runs from wall power if it detects a healthy battery, but doesn't allow that if the battery is very dead.
Not saying you're wrong, but it could easily be the case that the iphone runs from wall power if it detects a healthy battery, but doesn't allow that if the battery is very dead.
> But, if my memory is good, when Apple was fined in France, it was shown that the throttling was performed without consideration for the battery state. So was done even with a new battery (or the power cord plugged)
I don't think you're correct here. The way this behaviour was initially discovered was that a reddit user ran a benchmarking app before and after a battery replacement, showing a substantial increase to performance afterwards.
It would not surprise me if this only applied to first party batteries, though I have no information one way or the other.
I don't think you're correct here. The way this behaviour was initially discovered was that a reddit user ran a benchmarking app before and after a battery replacement, showing a substantial increase to performance afterwards.
It would not surprise me if this only applied to first party batteries, though I have no information one way or the other.
Battery not removeable was a stopper since year one. (Why would anyone not want to wait for a charge?)
A "nice" user feature would be a preference to self-throttle a step or two. Else it's like they think they own the phones you bought years ago... or don't trust their own developers to do it right.
A "nice" user feature would be a preference to self-throttle a step or two. Else it's like they think they own the phones you bought years ago... or don't trust their own developers to do it right.
Besides the more obvious reasons, making the battery swappable would compromise other things like thickness, weight, waterproofing, and so on.
Perhaps.
I used to carry a rugged android that could be operated underwater or in the presence of some explosive gasses. It was a bit heavier, but it was also the equivalent to normal device with a rugged case.
A company with the sophistication of industrial design like Apple could build a moderately more rugged device that would be very close to the existing iPhones.
The real and obvious reason for Apples decisions is that both high margin extended warranties and cases for iPhones probably generate more income than the Mac.
I used to carry a rugged android that could be operated underwater or in the presence of some explosive gasses. It was a bit heavier, but it was also the equivalent to normal device with a rugged case.
A company with the sophistication of industrial design like Apple could build a moderately more rugged device that would be very close to the existing iPhones.
The real and obvious reason for Apples decisions is that both high margin extended warranties and cases for iPhones probably generate more income than the Mac.
Assuming you aren't one of the very few people on earth that make those decisions (made obvious by your choice of phone earlier), then saying your pet theory is real and obvious.. is unhelpful. I would posit (as the most profitable company on earth) that the reason Apple makes iPhones they way they do is simply because they sell better to normal consumers.
If you carry a phone based on which explosive gasses it can operate near, you are an extreme outlier when it comes to consumer behavior. Perhaps the things that are "real and obvious" to you.. aren't.
If you carry a phone based on which explosive gasses it can operate near, you are an extreme outlier when it comes to consumer behavior. Perhaps the things that are "real and obvious" to you.. aren't.
Just because something or someone is successful doesn't mean all decisions that are made are optimal, close to optimal, or even not an active detriment.
The famous example is people conflating Steve Jobs being an asshole with being successful.
The famous example is people conflating Steve Jobs being an asshole with being successful.
I generally agree with you, but in this generic case, phones are actually truly packed to the max. Similarly to how you could easily fix your older car with just a few tools, modern engines are so complex that such home-twinkering is impossible. Phones go in the direction of having less and less separate parts, which is bad from a repairability pov, but the reason why these gigantic screen sizes are the new norm is also the side-effect of having to put n cameras, 5G, a huge battery, LiDAR and what not into a comparatively small body, while at the same time making it dust and water proof.
Agreed. It's like saying mid-engine cars are intentionally made complex to repair to make more money of service whereas it's more likely that the primary driving factor is better performance & handling and the extra service revenue is an added benefit.
Yes, but those are all choices, and they're all vendor-driven. It's not users demanding these things - users just select from what's available on the market.
And here, it's not even the case of all those weird nerds complaining about missing headphone jack. Go poll normies about screen sizes. Regular people complaining about phones being too large is pretty much a meme now.
(Engineering-wise, phones do get thermal advantage from the current form factor trends - thinner but larger -> more surface area. But I suspect it's more than compensated by the extra heat from the larger screen.)
And here, it's not even the case of all those weird nerds complaining about missing headphone jack. Go poll normies about screen sizes. Regular people complaining about phones being too large is pretty much a meme now.
(Engineering-wise, phones do get thermal advantage from the current form factor trends - thinner but larger -> more surface area. But I suspect it's more than compensated by the extra heat from the larger screen.)
Apple released a smaller phone called the Mini and it only makes up 5% of their sales: https://9to5mac.com/2021/07/15/iphone-12-line-accounted-for-...
Those are the revealed preferences of millions of customers. How many people did you poll?
Those are the revealed preferences of millions of customers. How many people did you poll?
Not only that but the 12 Pro Max sells substantially better than the 12 Pro, according to the chart.
A smaller underpowered phone.
You aren't calculating the effect of phone size correctly.
You aren't calculating the effect of phone size correctly.
Other than screen resolution and smaller battery (due to the size difference), the 12 mini and the 12 have the exact same specs.
You might be thinking of the iPhone SE, which is the budget offering that’s almost as small as the Mini and has lower-end specs.
Most people I know keep buying bigger phones even though smaller ones from the same companies exist now
In this case, I carried a phone that works outdoors in typical field conditions, including high heat, cold, and high background noise. iPhones are designed with assumptions that make them inappropriate for outdoor work — they have an operating range that leads to shutdown in outer pockets in the winter or in hot summer conditions.
With respect to the warranty and accessory stuff, I spent several years in that part of the hardware business — a product like AppleCare has 70% margins at retail (minimum), and unbranded cases identical to Apple branded sell for 60-80% less at retail.
Am I wrong about Apple’s abilities to manufacture durable products with different design goals? Maybe, but I doubt it.
MacBook Pros are a great example, when transitioning to unibody design, the MacBook lost replaceable batteries and other components, in exchange for a more structurally rigid frame and a very marginal weight/thickness savings. What they did achieve is a higher margin design by focusing on production efficiency and an attempt to push higher service costs to the consumer. (Which partially failed with the defective keyboards) The engineers produced a product that met its design goals, with the exception of the garbage keyboard.
With respect to the warranty and accessory stuff, I spent several years in that part of the hardware business — a product like AppleCare has 70% margins at retail (minimum), and unbranded cases identical to Apple branded sell for 60-80% less at retail.
Am I wrong about Apple’s abilities to manufacture durable products with different design goals? Maybe, but I doubt it.
MacBook Pros are a great example, when transitioning to unibody design, the MacBook lost replaceable batteries and other components, in exchange for a more structurally rigid frame and a very marginal weight/thickness savings. What they did achieve is a higher margin design by focusing on production efficiency and an attempt to push higher service costs to the consumer. (Which partially failed with the defective keyboards) The engineers produced a product that met its design goals, with the exception of the garbage keyboard.
A curious thing about consumer behavior is that they never report phone thickness being a top concern but in practice it is actually one of the top criteria by which they judge phones.
Apple may benefit from planned obsolescence but they can (and do) just stop updating the software to achieve the same end. I suspect that if they made two versions of the iPhone, one like now and another along the lines you suggest, the current design would sell much better.
Apple may benefit from planned obsolescence but they can (and do) just stop updating the software to achieve the same end. I suspect that if they made two versions of the iPhone, one like now and another along the lines you suggest, the current design would sell much better.
> they never report phone thickness being a top concern but in practice it is actually one of the top criteria by which they judge phones
So much true. I'm on iPhone 12 Pro right now but I am always tempted to play with my Moto 5g Plus. It is quite a bit thinner or at least feels like that and it feels so much better in my hand.
So much true. I'm on iPhone 12 Pro right now but I am always tempted to play with my Moto 5g Plus. It is quite a bit thinner or at least feels like that and it feels so much better in my hand.
My iPhones have always gotten software updates much longer than my Android phones so I’m always curious why Apple gets targeted so often when talking about phasing out old phones. Heck half of the new Androids had trouble getting software updates in a timely manner.
Android phones are not better in this regard, I agree.
IMO Apple's planned obsolescence is based on ridiculously low RAM. Modern phones are running same workloads as modern computers. Browser engine is the same, kernel is the same. Phone CPU is as powerful as laptop CPU with similar power budget. Developers use same or similar frameworks to write apps. Imagine buying premium laptop with 2 GB of RAM. That's iPhone 8 while high-end Androids were shipping with 8+ GB of RAM at that time.
RAM requirements of OS and apps will increase every year, so it'll be obvious to stop supporting old phones because of lack of RAM, even if CPU and Disk are more than capable.
RAM requirements of OS and apps will increase every year, so it'll be obvious to stop supporting old phones because of lack of RAM, even if CPU and Disk are more than capable.
In the past Samsung built phones with both a swappable battery and a headphone jack and in a test it survived a run through a washing machine. No problem if there's an incentive to do it right. Not to mention Apple was pretty much the last to the waterproof smartphone party even though they always locked their phones down the most.
And I don't mind thickness. Thicker means better ergonomics in my experience, at least compared to today's oversized sheets of metal and glass. And I bet you put those in a case which adds 2-3mm thickness. Well, that sure paid off, did it?
And weight? I can't even come up with a scenario where I'd care about that. Make it weigh less than a pound and I'm okay with it.
And I don't mind thickness. Thicker means better ergonomics in my experience, at least compared to today's oversized sheets of metal and glass. And I bet you put those in a case which adds 2-3mm thickness. Well, that sure paid off, did it?
And weight? I can't even come up with a scenario where I'd care about that. Make it weigh less than a pound and I'm okay with it.
You may not care about weight or thickness, but HN is a horrible gauge of typical consumer behavior with regard to tech.
Notice you said in the past. Samsung got rid of those things to save space and cost while making room for other things
I can change my watch battery and maintain waterproof. Seems like a solvable problem.
The guys at the watch store would always warn that changing the battery could compromise the water resistance of the watch and, based on some bitter experience, not without reason.
Phones have much larger batteries and pack far more functionality into a small space than a regular watch. Hard to see how the constraints are comparable.
The battery size and device's functionality are the two most irrelevant factors. Water doesn't care if the thing has Bluetooth.
Whether it's a watch or a phone, you don't want water or moisture inside. Simple as that. Watches do have the advantage that they can be built so that they're 100% filled with a lubricating fluid, making them more or less immune to outer pressure.
Whether it's a watch or a phone, you don't want water or moisture inside. Simple as that. Watches do have the advantage that they can be built so that they're 100% filled with a lubricating fluid, making them more or less immune to outer pressure.
Just stop already. We had waterproof gadgets with removable batteries, we still have them.
Phones thickness bever was an issue.
IP68? The 6 stands for absolutely dustproof and the 8 means it can be submerged more than one meter in water and still work. Wasn't there a case of a working iPhone from a lake?
Disclaimer: prefer changeable batteries and don't own Apple devices.
Disclaimer: prefer changeable batteries and don't own Apple devices.
iPhones are not waterproof. Warranty do not extend to water damage and iPhones have internal indicators of water leakage. If Apple is not confident with iPhones waterproof properties, neither should users.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207043
You're right that water damage isn't covered but they're still pretty resistant:
> iPhone 12, iPhone 12 mini, iPhone 12 Pro, and iPhone 12 Pro Max have a rating of IP68 under IEC standard 60529 (maximum depth of 6 meters up to 30 minutes).
You're right that water damage isn't covered but they're still pretty resistant:
> iPhone 12, iPhone 12 mini, iPhone 12 Pro, and iPhone 12 Pro Max have a rating of IP68 under IEC standard 60529 (maximum depth of 6 meters up to 30 minutes).
I have to say that I never find it convincing when people baldly assert the opposite conclusion of what I said without any explanation of why I should change my mind.
I have couple of iDevices lying around in need of battery replacement, I decided to remove the bulged battery from iPad Air 2(for safety) and in the process destroyed the display, The ribbon cable tore like tissue paper) and cut my finger(I've been repairing my electronics all my life, this was the first time with Apple devices).
My next plan was to order replacement display, batteries for that iPad and iPhone from iFixit but after a hard-thought I decided to not put any more money into this ecosystem and rather buy a PineTab (which cost cheaper than the replacement parts for the iDevices).
My next plan was to order replacement display, batteries for that iPad and iPhone from iFixit but after a hard-thought I decided to not put any more money into this ecosystem and rather buy a PineTab (which cost cheaper than the replacement parts for the iDevices).
> But, if my memory is good, when Apple was fined in France, it was shown that the throttling was performed without consideration for the battery state. So was done even with a new battery (or the power cord plugged)
That doesn’t make any sense. It’s not throttling if that’s already what it’s like out of the box. Or is every manufacturer that doesn’t overclock the chips in its devices guilty of throttling?
That doesn’t make any sense. It’s not throttling if that’s already what it’s like out of the box. Or is every manufacturer that doesn’t overclock the chips in its devices guilty of throttling?
Your memory isn’t good, but there is a constant stream of misinformation regarding this so I don’t blame you.
The issue was referred to as batterygate for a reason - it was entirely to do with battery condition.
The issue was referred to as batterygate for a reason - it was entirely to do with battery condition.
I think it has less to do with battery and more with each OS version packing more features and being more resource-hungry.
Old iphones become faster if you reboot them, like most devices. This is true whether or not you change the region. There's no qualitative difference when you test repeatedly.
https://knowtechie.com/want-to-speed-up-your-old-iphone-try-...
https://knowtechie.com/want-to-speed-up-your-old-iphone-try-...
> If you’ve got an older iPhone that’s seeming to slow down, it’s more likely that your device is just aging.
I was under the impression that technology doesn't "just age". The software running and apps being updated for new platforms might make it feel "slower" but in general using the phone itself shouldn't ever feel like it's aging.
I was under the impression that technology doesn't "just age". The software running and apps being updated for new platforms might make it feel "slower" but in general using the phone itself shouldn't ever feel like it's aging.
Oh good point
Using this trick, the phone will also die suddenly at 30% power if the cpu draws too much power at once and the old battery cannot keep up.
The throttling is there to prevent the instant shutdown due to old batteries having a lower peak output
The throttling is there to prevent the instant shutdown due to old batteries having a lower peak output
Old iphones become more stable if you change the region from France!
In all seriousness, it frustrates me how much of the focus was on the bad half of the tradeoff rather than the lack of messaging. Now you have people who believe apple deliberately slowed old models for no reason other than because they're old.
In all seriousness, it frustrates me how much of the focus was on the bad half of the tradeoff rather than the lack of messaging. Now you have people who believe apple deliberately slowed old models for no reason other than because they're old.
No, the focus was exactly where Apple wanted it to be. Talking a lot about 'tradeoffs' when the real issue was Apple cheating its own customers - Apple denied the throttling, so people would buy a new iPhone instead of a cheap battery replacement.
Wouldn’t a rebooting phone have the same outcome? Why go to the bother of only targeting specific handsets with degraded batteries with this strategy? Why return the phone to full speed when you replaced the battery?
>Wouldn’t a rebooting phone have the same outcome?
Yes it would, but in a way that would have hurt the brand much more.
>Why go to the bother of only targeting specific handsets with degraded batteries with this strategy? Why return the phone to full speed when you replaced the battery?
The iOS patch wasn't all that specific, and it isn't sure it really did target degraded batteries. For all we know, they slowed down old devices without really checking the battery but merely assumed the battery was bad based on age.
But assuming that Apple messaging is true this time, and remembering Apple used to deny the throttling, we can reach the logical conclusion: According to Apple itself, Apple benefited from consumers upgrading iPhones when they could have just upgraded the battery.
Yes it would, but in a way that would have hurt the brand much more.
>Why go to the bother of only targeting specific handsets with degraded batteries with this strategy? Why return the phone to full speed when you replaced the battery?
The iOS patch wasn't all that specific, and it isn't sure it really did target degraded batteries. For all we know, they slowed down old devices without really checking the battery but merely assumed the battery was bad based on age.
But assuming that Apple messaging is true this time, and remembering Apple used to deny the throttling, we can reach the logical conclusion: According to Apple itself, Apple benefited from consumers upgrading iPhones when they could have just upgraded the battery.
It really was that specific. My wife’s phone was throttled and mine wasn’t. You could run a benchmark to find out until they updated the settings for more visibility.
My wife never did get her battery replaced - she was just happy with her phone as it was. If it randomly rebooted she wouldn’t have been happy and would have upgraded.
The feature still exists in iOS by the way, now it just tells you when it’s doing it and you can disable it if you prefer reboots. The feature kicks in when a brownout happens, that’s how its “targeted” at phones with degraded batteries.
My wife never did get her battery replaced - she was just happy with her phone as it was. If it randomly rebooted she wouldn’t have been happy and would have upgraded.
The feature still exists in iOS by the way, now it just tells you when it’s doing it and you can disable it if you prefer reboots. The feature kicks in when a brownout happens, that’s how its “targeted” at phones with degraded batteries.
In the defense of those who like a faster phone.
My iPhone would die randomly whenever it would try to draw too much on an old and dying battery.
Thing was, it was slowed down already. If i was in France i would have replaced the battery sooner because i imagine it would happen a lot more frequently, and earlier on.
My iPhone would die randomly whenever it would try to draw too much on an old and dying battery.
Thing was, it was slowed down already. If i was in France i would have replaced the battery sooner because i imagine it would happen a lot more frequently, and earlier on.
[deleted]
Twice in my life an irreversible update has made an iPhone slow to the point of being unusable.
People are skeptical for a reason.
People are skeptical for a reason.
On the flip side, my iphone used to crap out at random times when I really needed it.
That sounds terrible. I wouldn't know though because I have never had an Android phone do anything like that.
That’s because android phones won’t become old hardware-wise due to being made obsolete by software in like 3 years tops.
And no, I’m not an apple fanboy, but even with this shitty behavior, iphones get some insane lifespans with usually many owners.
And no, I’m not an apple fanboy, but even with this shitty behavior, iphones get some insane lifespans with usually many owners.
That means you’ve never ran a phone with a bad enough battery so that it would’ve started throttling if it were an iPhone.
It’s simple physics, nothing to do with being an iPhone or Android.
It’s simple physics, nothing to do with being an iPhone or Android.
I'm pretty sure software is a major factor. My Android phone is currently 5 years old and never done anything like that before. Neither have any of my Android phones in the past.
If this is some law of physics, then why did it only happen to Apple phones?
If this is some law of physics, then why did it only happen to Apple phones?
Yeah, if it didn’t happen to you doesn’t mean it didn’t happen to any of the hundreds of millions Android phones from a plethora of manufactures around the world. You can’t generalize from your anecdote.
iOS 4 on the 3G was a killer.
> The throttling is there to prevent the instant shutdown due to old batteries having a lower peak output
Sure, but it would be nice to be informed about it (so I can choose to get my battery replaced instead) and to be able to turn it off without changing the location to France
Sure, but it would be nice to be informed about it (so I can choose to get my battery replaced instead) and to be able to turn it off without changing the location to France
> it would be nice to be informed about it
You are. When the phone reboots as a result of power problems, you get a notification that says:
"This iPhone has experienced an unexpected shutdown because the battery was unable to deliver the necessary peak power. Performance management has been applied to help prevent this from happening again."
Describing CPU throttling as "performance management" is perhaps a little stilted, but all the basic information is there.
> to be able to turn it off without changing the location to France
You can. It's in the Battery settings. It's not super obvious (small text link that says "Disable..." after a description of the throttling), but it's there.
You are. When the phone reboots as a result of power problems, you get a notification that says:
"This iPhone has experienced an unexpected shutdown because the battery was unable to deliver the necessary peak power. Performance management has been applied to help prevent this from happening again."
Describing CPU throttling as "performance management" is perhaps a little stilted, but all the basic information is there.
> to be able to turn it off without changing the location to France
You can. It's in the Battery settings. It's not super obvious (small text link that says "Disable..." after a description of the throttling), but it's there.
For comparison, on Mac when the battery starts dying, you get a persistent warning in the menu bar battery indicator. Hard to miss it every day.
On the iPhone, the one-time alert with cryptic language will just be dismissed by most users without a second thought. Doesn't matter that the capability to turn this "feature" off is buried somewhere in the settings when most people don't know about it.
Apple knows how to design good UI. If they wanted to prompt people to replace batteries, they would find a good way to do that. But they much prefer people buying new phones instead.
On the iPhone, the one-time alert with cryptic language will just be dismissed by most users without a second thought. Doesn't matter that the capability to turn this "feature" off is buried somewhere in the settings when most people don't know about it.
Apple knows how to design good UI. If they wanted to prompt people to replace batteries, they would find a good way to do that. But they much prefer people buying new phones instead.
Saying the feature is "buried somewhere in settings" feels like a biased framing. Settings are in the settings menu. This is a setting so it's in the settings menu. I assume it's categorised in some way that makes sense. Is any feature that 2 taps deep "buried"?
If you don't know that it's the battery causing your phone to be slow, you as an average user will never find that setting. And if you skip that one time dialog (by mistake or due to dialog fatigue), you won't even suspect the battery. Most users aren't technical and have no idea why a weaker battery would cause throttling.
It's there yes but it was only added as a result of the controversy.
> it was only added as a result of the controversy.
3 years ago. We’re well past the point where that’s a fair complaint
3 years ago. We’re well past the point where that’s a fair complaint
It was wrong then and is wrong now
How is it wrong now? Right now, the issue is clearly explained and can be disabled.
Ah, thanks! Not having had an iPhone after the 2G one, I couldn't check myself, and I had assumed that these details would be mentioned at the beginning of the article...
I think it was an unfair move from Apple at the beginning, but given your description it seems the current status is fair and the article is basically a click bait.
I think it was an unfair move from Apple at the beginning, but given your description it seems the current status is fair and the article is basically a click bait.
I experienced this for the first time, coincidentally, when traveling around France. Sometimes the battery would suddenly drop 20% or more and then shut off.
Without the trick, you don't know if you require a new battery or a new phone.
Settings > Battery will show you whether a new battery is recommended
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207453
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207453
Is there an equivalent setting or app for Android?
sure sure https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28246286
expect same story in 1-2 years when Apple SSD SMART keeps showing good health while drives lose/corrupt data
expect same story in 1-2 years when Apple SSD SMART keeps showing good health while drives lose/corrupt data
Great to see blind fanboy-ism up and at it again.
OK, the performance varies by 2%.
What is the tolerance of the performance test, even? Those things vary like crazy. I could change the language to Chinese and run the test over and over until I see a 10% improvement and report on that.
This level of "performance difference" will not even be noticeable, if it isn't immaterial to begin with.
What is the tolerance of the performance test, even? Those things vary like crazy. I could change the language to Chinese and run the test over and over until I see a 10% improvement and report on that.
This level of "performance difference" will not even be noticeable, if it isn't immaterial to begin with.
Anyone understand Chinese read the source article at the end? The source article clearly says this is not the case. Whether it’s true or not, I don’t like a report that changes the information from its source.
Yes, the Chinese news says someone in Weibo posts about this, then the reporter tests:
1. at first the score is lower after switch region, they guess the reason is thermal throttling because they tested multiple times, after cooling down, the score is only improved a little.
2. they thought the battery capacity is 100%, so there is no throttling. Therefore doing the test on a 80% phone, but there is also no significant difference.
3. Finally they come out an assumption, iPhone will do a soft restart and kill a background process after changing region, so the performance is improved.
Therefore the title from gizchina is a little misleading.
1. at first the score is lower after switch region, they guess the reason is thermal throttling because they tested multiple times, after cooling down, the score is only improved a little.
2. they thought the battery capacity is 100%, so there is no throttling. Therefore doing the test on a 80% phone, but there is also no significant difference.
3. Finally they come out an assumption, iPhone will do a soft restart and kill a background process after changing region, so the performance is improved.
Therefore the title from gizchina is a little misleading.
The interesting thing about this story is that "batterygate"[1] represents a period from January 2017 (when Apple added the throttling behavior in iOS 10.2.1, in response to bad press about old batteries causing shutdowns) to March 2018 (when Apple added the messaging explaining the throttling in iOS 11.3, and letting you opt-out of it). I'd speculate that the HN crowd skews towards being the type who'd buy new phones pseudo-regularly, so we're probably less likely than the average person to have actually experienced the throttling on an old battery.
Despite the status quo having been the "fixed" state for 3.5 years now, that one year period has left an indelible mark on some people's perceptions of Apple, such that stories claiming performance-shenanigans will always have an audience.
And, to be fair, the messaging about an old battery is probably confusing[2]. You get a popup explaining it after your phone restarts from poor battery performance for the first time, and then it's buried in the battery-health segment of preferences. Disabling the performance-throttling is even done just as a text-link, rather than a toggle or button. There's also no call-to-action suggesting that you might be able to get the battery replaced. (That's reserved for when the overall battery capacity drops.)
[1]: https://www.ifixit.com/News/11208/batterygate-timeline
[2]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208387
Despite the status quo having been the "fixed" state for 3.5 years now, that one year period has left an indelible mark on some people's perceptions of Apple, such that stories claiming performance-shenanigans will always have an audience.
And, to be fair, the messaging about an old battery is probably confusing[2]. You get a popup explaining it after your phone restarts from poor battery performance for the first time, and then it's buried in the battery-health segment of preferences. Disabling the performance-throttling is even done just as a text-link, rather than a toggle or button. There's also no call-to-action suggesting that you might be able to get the battery replaced. (That's reserved for when the overall battery capacity drops.)
[1]: https://www.ifixit.com/News/11208/batterygate-timeline
[2]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208387
I suspect HN tends towards less likely to be enticed by shinny things and marketing hype cycles. My phone is pushing 4 years at this point. I always buy with the expectation that I will get 3-5 years out of any phone/laptop.
Really want to see data on this one.
Really want to see data on this one.
My logic is mostly that we're on a site which is targeted at people who're in a fairly high-earning profession, with the added bonus of it being a fairly change-friendly profession.
If you're making Silicon Valley engineer money, whether you buy a new flagship phone every year is pretty much a matter of whether you want to, without money being a strong factor.
If you're making Silicon Valley engineer money, whether you buy a new flagship phone every year is pretty much a matter of whether you want to, without money being a strong factor.
Its true we could buy new phones yearly if we wanted to, but in my experience Engineering types are far less interested in social signaling / conspicuous consumption and far more likely to buy something based purely on the spec sheet. You have to do more than color your phone pink to convince us to upgrade. We know how that sausage is made.
Both of our narratives are plausible. The only way to settle this is with data.
Both of our narratives are plausible. The only way to settle this is with data.
It would certainly be interesting to see the data, but I’m not sure if I’d expect the results to point towards any particular monolithic user trends. I think a lot of users (perhaps the majority?) are using flagship devices released within the last year.
My iPhone 6s had the issue where a random CPU burst would crash it. Experiencing that, knowing how batteries age, and knowing how CPU throttling works, I actually believe Apple's explanation. I don't have a great explanation for why it's not a problem for my laptop other than bigger battery, though.
A blind guess is that what actually matters is the number of charge/discharge cycles. Greater batteries will go through less, but also you probably use your laptop on a charger from time-to-time which won’t count towards the cycle-count.
What's the difference between changing the region to France and simply disabling the performance management function?
Whether or not someone will click on the title of an article
I don't know, but I've had performance management disabled for about a year on my 1st gen SE. After switching to France as my region, my phone died at 15% for the first time in a long while so there seems to be some difference.
I could be ok with all those Apple "features" if only they give me the power to disable them, if I want. This could make the difference between keep me as customer or not.
Fun the article:
"The GeekBench running score before changing the location to France is 286,632. However, after changing the location to France, the running score is 298,321."
I have a hard time caring about a 4% difference in performance.
"The GeekBench running score before changing the location to France is 286,632. However, after changing the location to France, the running score is 298,321."
I have a hard time caring about a 4% difference in performance.
Conditions aren't even controlled enough to measure the difference. Phone would have to be at exact same temperature, exact same time since boot, same radio conditions, laying on the same surface at the same temperature and with the same ambient air flow and temperature.
If I was doing a test like this I'd run the benchmark a large number of times (at least ten) in various (not necessarily strictly controlled) typical usage scenarios. Ideally there would be a variety of handsets of the same model too (assuming variance between those is small). Then I'd filter for outliers and take a mean. I like this kind of testing, because you account for confounds that may only appear in a single highly-controlled lab setup, and won't reflect the results that people are expected to see when they use their phone in a typical way.
This article seems to suggest that the throttling happens outside France even when the user sets the phone not to throttle? That is pretty big news and hard to see a good faith reason this would happen.
Edit: maybe there is an innocuous explanation after all https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28296812
Edit: maybe there is an innocuous explanation after all https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28296812
Is this because France launched the lawsuit against alleged planned obsolescence?
"The reason for the smoothness is that Apple has been fined by France for the frequency reduction incident. This means that the company can not temper the performance of old iPhones in the country."
It only seems that way because French time is in decimal.
It's amazing how much fluff was made about it this when battery replacement in random shop costs about $20-50.
The main reason for the hubbub, back in the day, was that Apple completely obscured (a) that they were throttling performance, and (b) that replacing the battery was the fix.
I completely believe that they made the decision to throttle performance thinking it was the best action for their customers, and I agree with them. Throttling is better than random shutdowns. However, it's very easy to imagine that they dragged their feet so long on explaining what was going on because throttled phones were driving upgrade sales, while explaining throttling only drove battery sales.
I've never seen anyone claiming to have insider knowledge of the decisions around this inside Apple, unfortunately.
I completely believe that they made the decision to throttle performance thinking it was the best action for their customers, and I agree with them. Throttling is better than random shutdowns. However, it's very easy to imagine that they dragged their feet so long on explaining what was going on because throttled phones were driving upgrade sales, while explaining throttling only drove battery sales.
I've never seen anyone claiming to have insider knowledge of the decisions around this inside Apple, unfortunately.
Just tried on a iphone 7, it really does the trick
Why is Apple so far behind the competitors regarding hardware? They still have huge notch on the top, but competitors have invisible cameras behind display (Xiaomi Mi Mix 4). No fingerprint behind the screen like competitors. No foldable body frame. The only thing Apple do better than competitors is CPUs / SoCs.
and don't forget missing USB-C connector! I can charge all my 15 devices in a travel via a single cable, but Apple users have to carry another charger (or adapter) just for smartphone...
But if you have 15 devices and a single cable you are going to spend all day charging, right? and the adapter for iphone to usb-c is pretty small.
Not that I don't love usb-c ubiquity (thanks EU). It rwally grinds my.gears that my new kindle was syill micro-usb. Anyway, for those cases I have a couple of cheap adapters that do lightning/usb-c/micro/mini that I got free as marketing promos. Pretty handy to keep in your bag, especially for taking pity on people with dead iphones.
Not that I don't love usb-c ubiquity (thanks EU). It rwally grinds my.gears that my new kindle was syill micro-usb. Anyway, for those cases I have a couple of cheap adapters that do lightning/usb-c/micro/mini that I got free as marketing promos. Pretty handy to keep in your bag, especially for taking pity on people with dead iphones.
I have no doubt in my mind that the people calling out Apple to move to usb-c will be first in line to shout “planned obsolescence” if they did make the swap.
Simple: branding. If you see the notch, you know it’s an iPhone. If every phone was a slab of glass, there’s no product differentiation.
On hardware: Apple’s flagship phones are parity or better on most aspects of hardware. The SOC, camera module, material construction, screen color accuracy, and speaker quality meet or exceed just about everyone. I didn’t realize this was still an open question for people.
On hardware: Apple’s flagship phones are parity or better on most aspects of hardware. The SOC, camera module, material construction, screen color accuracy, and speaker quality meet or exceed just about everyone. I didn’t realize this was still an open question for people.
Not sure how your comment relates to the article but...
Apple's done this for a long time. They wait for something to be ready before launching it. They're rumored to be working on removing the notch, and foldable phones don't have enough consumer interest, yet.
Apple's done this for a long time. They wait for something to be ready before launching it. They're rumored to be working on removing the notch, and foldable phones don't have enough consumer interest, yet.
No 120fps screen, no ultrahigh resolution cameras, no periscope lens, no microscope lens, yet I'd never buy Android.
While you are listing features from different phones and complaining that iPhone doesn’t have them, add to your list 7-day battery life from Kindle, and VR capability of Oculus, and 400+ mileage range of a Tesla
But, if my memory is good, when Apple was fined in France, it was shown that the throttling was performed without consideration for the battery state. So was done even with a new battery (or the power cord plugged)
Also, for people having Stockholm syndrome, if they would have to throttle to preserve stability when the battery is old, it is not a "nice" user feature but a consequence of having made the battery not removable and easily swappable!