Billionaire Alibaba Founder Jack Ma Reappears in Hong Kong(reuters.com)
reuters.com
Billionaire Alibaba Founder Jack Ma Reappears in Hong Kong
https://www.reuters.com/world/china/billionaire-alibaba-founder-jack-ma-reappears-hong-kong-sources-2021-10-12/
54 comments
I'd be more worried about the actual wage slavery [1] inflicted by the billionaire in question.
The government as the arm of the people putting an end to this is a good thing. Why would people want to overthrow their government because it put an end to exploitation?
[1] https://fortune.com/2019/04/12/china-996-jack-ma/
The government as the arm of the people putting an end to this is a good thing. Why would people want to overthrow their government because it put an end to exploitation?
[1] https://fortune.com/2019/04/12/china-996-jack-ma/
Do you really believe this is about the CCP helping chinese people!? Its about it publicly destroying any threats to its total authority. Jack Ma was being punished for critising the goverment.
The west may not be perfect but it has rule of law and due process that at least makes an attempt to protect its citizens from arbitary arrest.
Do you think that a one party state that locks up ethnic minorities, tortures them, uses them for slave labour is somehow superior to democracy, free press, rule of law and property rights?
The west may not be perfect but it has rule of law and due process that at least makes an attempt to protect its citizens from arbitary arrest.
Do you think that a one party state that locks up ethnic minorities, tortures them, uses them for slave labour is somehow superior to democracy, free press, rule of law and property rights?
Helping Chinese people usually means helping CCP right?. CCP is not just cracking down on Jack Ma. I would you have believed you if CCP was not cracking on online gaming, celebrities, private tutoring, gig economies and hundred others. CCP has done many nefarious thing but I still think the crackdowns are generally net positive.
Regarding why they ban private tutoring I think many people are not giving birth in China because it takes lot of money to raise children and private tutoring is supposed to be one reason.
First of all people should know that CCP already realize they are mostly alone in this world so they need to gear up their technology, become more independent, increase domestic consumption, drive innovations etc.. Playing games / Celebrities, Gig Economy, 996 is not helpful to achieve CCP long term goals.In democracy politicians mostly have only short terms goals so that they can appease the mass. But in China CCP is eternal and it doesn't need to appease the mass.
Also if west want to crackdown on certain person it can bring its own reason as we can see with Julian Assange case.
"Do you think that a one party state that locks up ethnic minorities, tortures them, uses them for slave labour is somehow superior to democracy, free press, rule of law and property rights?"
Yea I think that is really bad part of CCP. But AFAIK since 2019 they have relaxed their rules in ethnic minorities[1]
[1]: https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-ch...
Regarding why they ban private tutoring I think many people are not giving birth in China because it takes lot of money to raise children and private tutoring is supposed to be one reason.
First of all people should know that CCP already realize they are mostly alone in this world so they need to gear up their technology, become more independent, increase domestic consumption, drive innovations etc.. Playing games / Celebrities, Gig Economy, 996 is not helpful to achieve CCP long term goals.In democracy politicians mostly have only short terms goals so that they can appease the mass. But in China CCP is eternal and it doesn't need to appease the mass.
Also if west want to crackdown on certain person it can bring its own reason as we can see with Julian Assange case.
"Do you think that a one party state that locks up ethnic minorities, tortures them, uses them for slave labour is somehow superior to democracy, free press, rule of law and property rights?"
Yea I think that is really bad part of CCP. But AFAIK since 2019 they have relaxed their rules in ethnic minorities[1]
[1]: https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-lifestyle-ch...
Stab in the dark — you're in Asia?
> Why would people want to overthrow their government because it put an end to exploitation?
Maybe because disappearing people does not exactly make you feel safe in a country? Maybe because there should be a check on the power that does such things?
Maybe because disappearing people does not exactly make you feel safe in a country? Maybe because there should be a check on the power that does such things?
The check is "don't be a billionaire that's built his wealth on exploiting others and brags about it". I feel pretty safe with that in place.
Plus, it's not like the US doesn't disappear people [1], they just wouldn't dare do it to an oligarch.
[1] https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-us...
Plus, it's not like the US doesn't disappear people [1], they just wouldn't dare do it to an oligarch.
[1] https://www.npr.org/2020/07/17/892277592/federal-officers-us...
> The check is don't be a billionaire
Tell that to the millions of Uyghurs.
Tell that to the millions of Uyghurs.
[citation needed]
And no, Adrian Zenz, a religious extremist who claimed he is "led by god" on a "mission" against communist China, does not count as a trustworthy source.
And no, Adrian Zenz, a religious extremist who claimed he is "led by god" on a "mission" against communist China, does not count as a trustworthy source.
Here you go, includes people who have gone missing. The full report is over a hundred pages long, published a few months ago. Contains a section about torture and medical experiments in camps.
All first-hand testimonies and research by Amnesty.
https://xinjiang.amnesty.org/
All first-hand testimonies and research by Amnesty.
https://xinjiang.amnesty.org/
I'd pick a different hill to die on.
Not sure why that is relevant. That’s not the reason he was disappeared was it?
The way China works, Jack Ma doesn’t have full autonomy over his company or his money. Just thought about highlighting that.
The US spends Jeff Bezos' entire net worth on its military alone every 90 days. The US military has burned up over 4x Apple's entire market cap in the time since the iPhone was introduced in 2008, and this is just one part of the government in one country (where only 1/20th of humans live).
The wealth and power of individuals and private corporations is absolutely trivial compared to that of governments.
Hundreds of billions is pocket change to the state. They own the arena in which the game is played. They legitimately operate the databases that track the value of money, and run the printers that produce more. There is no practical amount of wealth that brings a private citizen's stature into the same realm.
The wealth and power of individuals and private corporations is absolutely trivial compared to that of governments.
Hundreds of billions is pocket change to the state. They own the arena in which the game is played. They legitimately operate the databases that track the value of money, and run the printers that produce more. There is no practical amount of wealth that brings a private citizen's stature into the same realm.
Your point is also interesting in how it interacts with a common complaint in activist media, mainstream media and right here on HN frequently: People heavily and often complain about tax evasion by private wealthy individuals due to the financial power it gives them, but rarely mention the immense power that major states already have, tax evasion losses or no, to control narratives for billions of people. More argument should be devoted to the question of just how much money the state should be spending and how from the funds it already collects. This is more important than painting every major case of tax evasion as a crushing loss for governments whose existing budgets are astronomical and already and frequently used in incredibly wasteful ways.
Its a pretty common conservative talking point and has been for quite a while. It's half of the republican party's external marketing at times, even though they actually act differently.
This doesn't at all make it invalid as a point to consider.
Is it possible that embarrassment keeps him out of public light more than some sinister plot? You seem to assume that Ma not living in front of the camera anymore isn't his own choice.
If I was penalized by my home country, I personally would not want to put myself in front of domestic media or foreign media with a political axe to grind.
If I was penalized by my home country, I personally would not want to put myself in front of domestic media or foreign media with a political axe to grind.
There's a lot of people in the US clamoring for the government to reign in or eliminate our billionaires. Chinese probably view it as a feature that the government is not intimidated by them, unlike u.s. Agencies who have to kindly ask Elon not to make them look pathetic and toothless on Twitter every once in a while.
US agencies are definitely not toothless, full autonomy to act as they wish since the first Patriot act. Most annoyingly, no one managed to remove those powers.
> Most annoyingly, no one managed to remove those powers.
Or not renew them, each September since 2001, like clockwork.
The ongoing state of emergency enables such otherwise temporary powers.
Or not renew them, each September since 2001, like clockwork.
The ongoing state of emergency enables such otherwise temporary powers.
Well the problem is the definition of `Billionaires`. China's model is closer to typical corrupt authoritarian states like Russia where the government officials are the Real Billionaires. They have real power and capitals over those people like Jack Ma. They just need to move a finger and you will see the transfer of the capital. The billionaires are never eliminated. Just money change hands.
It's just that they are just less exposed in the global media, even as a forbidden topic in China's media. It's not hard to imagine how rich Xi actually is, he is basically Putin.
So when we are on the topic of `eliminate billionaires`, especially in the context in the country like China, the question becomes: which billionaires? ;)
It's just that they are just less exposed in the global media, even as a forbidden topic in China's media. It's not hard to imagine how rich Xi actually is, he is basically Putin.
So when we are on the topic of `eliminate billionaires`, especially in the context in the country like China, the question becomes: which billionaires? ;)
Incidentally, this is the reason that self custody of wealth (power) that bitcoin enables anonymously is important. In a ww3, the us could simply take out the ccp leadership. But in a decentralized capitalistic society run by anonymous bitcoin trillionaires, you couldn’t even find who to attack. While the trillionaires would continue to be able to execute their tasks under the rules of economics.
A capitalist society run by anonymous bitcoin trillionaires sounds like the worst kind of dystopia imaginable.
Also the bitcoin trillionaires would control the whole network. So not a real decentralization.
> u.s. Agencies who have to kindly ask Elon not to make them look pathetic and toothless on Twitter every once in a while
source?
source?
Maybe he hasn't been in public due to working 996 https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/15/business/jack-ma-996-chin... ?
Ma etc have bought properties and have cash /shares stashed outside China, I'm sure. But deciding to pull the trigger is tricky.
If he gets caught, he's dead. He's probably being tailed by secret services, maybe even his inner circle reports on him.
Ma etc have bought properties and have cash /shares stashed outside China, I'm sure. But deciding to pull the trigger is tricky.
If he gets caught, he's dead. He's probably being tailed by secret services, maybe even his inner circle reports on him.
Wow, the perils of being a billionnaire. Sometimes us commoners take being "average" for granted.
It would be more ubelievable to me if any citizen of any country managed to fight their government to a draw or even a loss for the government no matter how much money they have.
The balance of power is so skewed towards the government that the CCP can do this any day of the week without slowing down.
The balance of power is so skewed towards the government that the CCP can do this any day of the week without slowing down.
> If there was any further indication that a group of people needed to all band together and overthrow their government, you'd think that'd be it, but I guess some people just love living in near slavery.
Which people? What if the majority agrees with this move but they won’t speak out in public about it?
I for one am perfectly fine with China being able to do this. It would, at the very least, keep Zuckerberg and others in check.
The anti-China rhetoric on HN is mind boggling sometimes when it’s put next to the constant stream of complaints in the West, regarding inflation/monetary handouts, zoning laws, corruption, real estate, oil spills and companies getting away with shit, etc. The list is endless.
And yet, you’ve accomplished nothing. In fact, things are now worse than they were and yet you just keep complaining thinking it will make a difference. You’ll never get anywhere complaining without having a path to act. China, evil it may be, actually acts.
Go and call your congresspeople. They’ll listen to you over the sound of money that is pouring their way to look the other way.
Which people? What if the majority agrees with this move but they won’t speak out in public about it?
I for one am perfectly fine with China being able to do this. It would, at the very least, keep Zuckerberg and others in check.
The anti-China rhetoric on HN is mind boggling sometimes when it’s put next to the constant stream of complaints in the West, regarding inflation/monetary handouts, zoning laws, corruption, real estate, oil spills and companies getting away with shit, etc. The list is endless.
And yet, you’ve accomplished nothing. In fact, things are now worse than they were and yet you just keep complaining thinking it will make a difference. You’ll never get anywhere complaining without having a path to act. China, evil it may be, actually acts.
Go and call your congresspeople. They’ll listen to you over the sound of money that is pouring their way to look the other way.
constant stream of complaints in the west
That's because we're more open and hyper-critical of our flaws and that's how awareness builds. Better than controlling the press to hide your flaws and only publishing good news.
That's because we're more open and hyper-critical of our flaws and that's how awareness builds. Better than controlling the press to hide your flaws and only publishing good news.
I don't think I've seen a US/UK MSM article comparing China to us favorably in at least 5 years. Ive seen dozens or hundreds beating the drum against them..
It's a major coincidence for such a free press, right?
It's a major coincidence for such a free press, right?
> I don't think I've seen a US/UK MSM article comparing China to us favorably in at least 5 years. Ive seen dozens or hundreds beating the drum against them..
There is no shortage of articles published by Western media suggesting that China is out-hustling and out-innovating the US, and that the West is in decline as China rises.
This alone doesn't entitle China to praise or admiration. It's an authoritarian total surveillance state in which information is censored, citizens have little to no recourse when harmed by government action, enemies of the state disappear, and ethnic minorities are rounded up and sent to camps for "reeducation".
There is no shortage of articles published by Western media suggesting that China is out-hustling and out-innovating the US, and that the West is in decline as China rises.
This alone doesn't entitle China to praise or admiration. It's an authoritarian total surveillance state in which information is censored, citizens have little to no recourse when harmed by government action, enemies of the state disappear, and ethnic minorities are rounded up and sent to camps for "reeducation".
Until China tells you to shut up and then you have people flying over there groveling with apologies and self censoring.
You can engage in self-flagellation if you think it helps, but you’re not fooling people watching this thing unfold.
You can engage in self-flagellation if you think it helps, but you’re not fooling people watching this thing unfold.
[deleted]
> You’ll never get anywhere complaining without having a path to act. China, evil it may be, actually acts.
Acts for whom?
> Go and call your congresspeople. They’ll listen to you over the sound of money that is pouring their way to look the other way.
You taunt Americans, suggesting that politicians in the US ignore their constituents, but what do you think happens in China? Do you believe that the CCP gangsters who run just about every level of government listen to the Chinese citizens they govern?
Do you know what happens to plebs in China when they make too much noise?
Acts for whom?
> Go and call your congresspeople. They’ll listen to you over the sound of money that is pouring their way to look the other way.
You taunt Americans, suggesting that politicians in the US ignore their constituents, but what do you think happens in China? Do you believe that the CCP gangsters who run just about every level of government listen to the Chinese citizens they govern?
Do you know what happens to plebs in China when they make too much noise?
> And yet, you’ve accomplished nothing.
Citation needed. Over what timeframe? In what sector? The US has accomplished a lot and nothing depending how you frame it.
> Go and call your congresspeople. They’ll listen to you over the sound of money that is pouring their way to look the other way.
I (and many others) have actually had great success organizing & calling my federal reps. Even the Republican ones! (Although I have the most success with Democrats)
Don’t generalize the politics of a country you’ve only read about. It isn’t fair to call out Anti-China rhetoric just for you to spin the same top.
Citation needed. Over what timeframe? In what sector? The US has accomplished a lot and nothing depending how you frame it.
> Go and call your congresspeople. They’ll listen to you over the sound of money that is pouring their way to look the other way.
I (and many others) have actually had great success organizing & calling my federal reps. Even the Republican ones! (Although I have the most success with Democrats)
Don’t generalize the politics of a country you’ve only read about. It isn’t fair to call out Anti-China rhetoric just for you to spin the same top.
> I for one am perfectly fine with China being able to do this.
If you are fine when the govt kidnaps a billionaire then what makes you think you will be safe?
If you are fine when the govt kidnaps a billionaire then what makes you think you will be safe?
You must be very naive thinking any other government can't kidnap anyone. Think of Assange - perfect illustration of what "free" western governments can do.
I'm not a fan of CCP in any way but I find naivety of HN commenters speaking about China and CCP here very amusing.
I'm not a fan of CCP in any way but I find naivety of HN commenters speaking about China and CCP here very amusing.
Was Assange kidnapped and did he disappear for months?
Read my comment again, I think that if you are a billionaire the US govt wont kidnap you like what they do in China and Russia.
I find your comment amusing unless you can give some sources where the US has kidnapped billionaires and kept them hidden for months.
Read my comment again, I think that if you are a billionaire the US govt wont kidnap you like what they do in China and Russia.
I find your comment amusing unless you can give some sources where the US has kidnapped billionaires and kept them hidden for months.
> Was Assange kidnapped and did he disappear for months?
I suggest you to educate yourself about the matter. He did disappear for years, not months, unfortunately.
And there is not need to become so defensive - if you look at history with intellectual curiosity you may find at certain point that similarities between US, Russian or Chinese government are quite extreme when it comes to fighting with forces opposing the government.
I suggest you to educate yourself about the matter. He did disappear for years, not months, unfortunately.
And there is not need to become so defensive - if you look at history with intellectual curiosity you may find at certain point that similarities between US, Russian or Chinese government are quite extreme when it comes to fighting with forces opposing the government.
Where did he disappear for years, perhaps I missed that memo.
We are not talking about history here, we are talking about the present.
We are not talking about history here, we are talking about the present.
How about non billionaires?
Are those humans human enough for you?
Are those humans human enough for you?
This is actually a very valid comment. And Snowden as well.
thank you - good point, Snowden is a perfect illustration as well indeed
preach(1)
It's possible to muzzle monopolist practices and politician-buying by billionaires in the west without applauding or descending into China-style totalitarian control. The obvious thing comes to mind if you follow the latter path: That you have simply replaced the manipulating power of very rich business people with the literally authoritarian power of political leaders with armies and police to enforce their rule (plus lots of public money they control as if it were their own). And even then, some of the businessmen you previously hoped to muzzle with such measures find ways to buy their way into the new political power structure.
Eventually try the same in the U.S and more likely that someone like Zuckerberg becomes one of those who can pull policing power strings than him being punished by "tough on billionaires" politicians with too much coercive authority.
As a basic bottom line, i'd prefer a country with a Bezos or Zuckerberg trying to manipulate me into depending on them to a country where a Xi can literally force my dependence at any time. Neither is ideal but the first at least leaves room for saying no without being imprisoned or killed.
Eventually try the same in the U.S and more likely that someone like Zuckerberg becomes one of those who can pull policing power strings than him being punished by "tough on billionaires" politicians with too much coercive authority.
As a basic bottom line, i'd prefer a country with a Bezos or Zuckerberg trying to manipulate me into depending on them to a country where a Xi can literally force my dependence at any time. Neither is ideal but the first at least leaves room for saying no without being imprisoned or killed.
Band together to protect the billionaires? Could you pick a less sympathetic reason?
If there was any further indication that a group of people needed to all band together and overthrow their government, you'd think that'd be it, but I guess some people just love living in near slavery.