Ask HN: What's the Point of Life?
172 comments
There is no point.
It's up to you to decide what it is that matters to you but if you're looking for some universal direction then that will just lead to frustration.
If you're lucky and you have the resources then you're in a position to choose which I understand can feel overwhelming. I would just encourage you to consider the possibility that you've been given a gift and you should cherish it.
It's up to you to decide what it is that matters to you but if you're looking for some universal direction then that will just lead to frustration.
If you're lucky and you have the resources then you're in a position to choose which I understand can feel overwhelming. I would just encourage you to consider the possibility that you've been given a gift and you should cherish it.
This is what I believe too, but I take it 1 step further: life would suck if life had a point. Because that would have all sorts of implications in the goals we should strive for, and the things we should do.
Without a point we are free to pursue whatever meaning we find important.
Without a point we are free to pursue whatever meaning we find important.
Thank you. The problem – or at least, my problem – is that "There isn't any point" leads to a feeling of "This is pointless." Wandering around life feeling "This is pointless" when you do anything seems... suboptimal.
But it's true, right? If there's no point, then the conclusion is "This is pointless" for every experience. And it ends up feeling so hollow sometimes.
Relaxing and enjoying it is of course the antidote. But I'm starting to wonder if everyone is relaxing and enjoying life without purpose, and therefore our collective purpose is de facto "Netflix and chill."
There's nothing wrong with that, but it ends up feeling like "Well, I may as well sit around and play Dota; it's just as good as doing anything else, since it's all pointless." And that can't possibly be the proper mindset for life... Can it?
But it's true, right? If there's no point, then the conclusion is "This is pointless" for every experience. And it ends up feeling so hollow sometimes.
Relaxing and enjoying it is of course the antidote. But I'm starting to wonder if everyone is relaxing and enjoying life without purpose, and therefore our collective purpose is de facto "Netflix and chill."
There's nothing wrong with that, but it ends up feeling like "Well, I may as well sit around and play Dota; it's just as good as doing anything else, since it's all pointless." And that can't possibly be the proper mindset for life... Can it?
I recommend reading Myth of Sisyphus by Camus (the full version, maybe skipping the stuff about other philosophers and where they went wrong). It describes the notion of Absurd, something that arises from the irreconcilability of the consciousness and the universe... and also talks a lot on what is to be done about that.
A crude synopsis is that you can create your own meaning while keeping the pointlessness of it always in view... you can live life, create art, etc. as a meaningless revolt against meaninglessness :)
I also wonder anyway, how would life with a point feel? It goes back to absurdity of human condition; you think you need a point but how does that work? Let's say you achieve the point of life when you are 53, what do you do then? :) Life with an absolute point is not actually a condition I can imagine :)
A crude synopsis is that you can create your own meaning while keeping the pointlessness of it always in view... you can live life, create art, etc. as a meaningless revolt against meaninglessness :)
I also wonder anyway, how would life with a point feel? It goes back to absurdity of human condition; you think you need a point but how does that work? Let's say you achieve the point of life when you are 53, what do you do then? :) Life with an absolute point is not actually a condition I can imagine :)
Well, you seem to be uninspired by DOTA and Netflix so I think you already know the answer to your question.
To be nerdy about it; this is a problem with many variables and one of your responsibilities is to figure out what they are. So if you're feeling overwhelmed with a sense of futility then it might be that you're experiencing some level of depression. You could be out of 'happy juice' and be wildly over stimulated. You need to name, and isolate those variables for yourself, so you can hear what some people call your 'authentic voice' which will give you some level of inspiration.
I realize this might sound hand-wavy. I can't give you any practical personal advice for obvious reasons, but I would really encourage you to change things up; change your surroundings. Try new things. Meet new people. Move your body around. None of it will feel good to start.
You may also be interested in reading or listening to work by Andrew Huberman who provides excellent lectures on various topics around brain chemistry and motivation.
To be nerdy about it; this is a problem with many variables and one of your responsibilities is to figure out what they are. So if you're feeling overwhelmed with a sense of futility then it might be that you're experiencing some level of depression. You could be out of 'happy juice' and be wildly over stimulated. You need to name, and isolate those variables for yourself, so you can hear what some people call your 'authentic voice' which will give you some level of inspiration.
I realize this might sound hand-wavy. I can't give you any practical personal advice for obvious reasons, but I would really encourage you to change things up; change your surroundings. Try new things. Meet new people. Move your body around. None of it will feel good to start.
You may also be interested in reading or listening to work by Andrew Huberman who provides excellent lectures on various topics around brain chemistry and motivation.
You create your own reality. If your current reality is pointless, make a new one.
Find your own meaning since it is different for everyone was their point I think.
Find your own meaning since it is different for everyone was their point I think.
Just because life is pointless, it doesn't mean you can't do things for a purpose.
Think questions like: "Why bother developing a skill if I'm not going to use it professionally?"
Well, learning this can just make you happy, and that's enough of a purpose if you want it to be. You don't have to make money out of it, it doesn't need to take you anywhere in your career, if you feel good doing something as hobby, why would that be bad?
"Ah, but there are people consider that procrastination"
Do you care what others think? How much to be in the way of you enjoying yourself?
Of course you need to make the decision if something is worth your time and is making you truly happy or just helping you escape reality.
Addictive things can give you short burst of happiness, but fill the rest of your life with misery. But anything can be an addiction. Just because it is to another person, it doesn't mean it is to you and vice-versa.
Think questions like: "Why bother developing a skill if I'm not going to use it professionally?"
Well, learning this can just make you happy, and that's enough of a purpose if you want it to be. You don't have to make money out of it, it doesn't need to take you anywhere in your career, if you feel good doing something as hobby, why would that be bad?
"Ah, but there are people consider that procrastination"
Do you care what others think? How much to be in the way of you enjoying yourself?
Of course you need to make the decision if something is worth your time and is making you truly happy or just helping you escape reality.
Addictive things can give you short burst of happiness, but fill the rest of your life with misery. But anything can be an addiction. Just because it is to another person, it doesn't mean it is to you and vice-versa.
If you accepted unproven ideas such as that one you would probably accept ideas without foundation in general, and this attitude would be very, very toxic.
Excellent answer…
In a meaningless universe where you are essentially a powerless water balloon with some decision tree making abilities, the gift of “choice” and deciding what matters to you is really the only power you have.
In a meaningless universe where you are essentially a powerless water balloon with some decision tree making abilities, the gift of “choice” and deciding what matters to you is really the only power you have.
"We thought of life by analogy with a journey, a pilgrimage, which had a serious purpose at the end, and the thing was to get to that end, success or whatever it is, maybe heaven after you're dead. But we missed the point the whole way along. It was a musical thing and you were supposed to sing or to dance while the music was being played."
Allan Watts
Allan Watts
That might be true in the abstract, as a theory. But when it comes to point-of-life I think it’s better to judge a philosophy based on how a person has lived it. And it doesn’t seem like Watts lived as good of a life as he could.
While I agree that Alan hasn't really lived his life righteously, that's an ad hominem.
But anyway, if you meet buddha on the road kill him, and beware people claiming they have all the answers. There isn't a single truth, as this whole discussion shows, only a variety of perspectives, and I am fond of this one, even if it is a fiction.
But anyway, if you meet buddha on the road kill him, and beware people claiming they have all the answers. There isn't a single truth, as this whole discussion shows, only a variety of perspectives, and I am fond of this one, even if it is a fiction.
Of course it’s an ad hominem—I just said that I think it’s better to judge someone’s philosophy based on how a person embodies it. The ad hominem is very much pertitent to the question at hand!
Philosophy is for living, not for sterililized, abstract what-ifs and hypotheticals that can only be critiqued as platonic ideals, lest you be accused of committing a “fallacy” for maintaining that a philosophy should be practiced and not just talked about.
Philosophy is for living, not for sterililized, abstract what-ifs and hypotheticals that can only be critiqued as platonic ideals, lest you be accused of committing a “fallacy” for maintaining that a philosophy should be practiced and not just talked about.
Thinking about living a "good life" implies knowing the point of living a life :)
I enjoyed this animation narrated by same:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VALLiF18tvM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VALLiF18tvM
It’s good that you have enough free time to raise such questions))
But seriously, to understand why you’d never get true objective answer you need to realize something.
The question itself contains 2 critical assumptions:
1. There’s objective cause-effect relationship embedded in the nature of reality (and therefore life).
Imagine there’s no causality and all you see is just a correlation of events of different levels of certainty.
Would this question make sense at all?
And causality is nothing more than a model of the world in our human minds. A very good and practical one, but just a model.
How do you expect to get good answer to a question outside of the model scope, but which make sense only within the model.
2. We as humans somehow can know or impose some ultimate goal for the life itself as though we were the ones who invented it in the lab.
While in reality we’re just observers and a tiny piece of life we know of.
We have no real control of the process itself, and we’ll never know how it really started unless someone external will show us.
But then still we will have no reference point to know for sure if this someone is not just another form of the same life trying to fool us. Etc.
So anyway, this question (in its ultimate form) is deeply meaningful, because it implies the answer which lies outside of the system making the question possible in the first place.
Answer “there’s no point” is also wrong. For the same reasons. May be there is. May be someone created it on purpose, but again we will never know this for sure, at least with existing methods of “knowing”
But seriously, to understand why you’d never get true objective answer you need to realize something.
The question itself contains 2 critical assumptions:
1. There’s objective cause-effect relationship embedded in the nature of reality (and therefore life).
Imagine there’s no causality and all you see is just a correlation of events of different levels of certainty.
Would this question make sense at all?
And causality is nothing more than a model of the world in our human minds. A very good and practical one, but just a model.
How do you expect to get good answer to a question outside of the model scope, but which make sense only within the model.
2. We as humans somehow can know or impose some ultimate goal for the life itself as though we were the ones who invented it in the lab.
While in reality we’re just observers and a tiny piece of life we know of.
We have no real control of the process itself, and we’ll never know how it really started unless someone external will show us.
But then still we will have no reference point to know for sure if this someone is not just another form of the same life trying to fool us. Etc.
So anyway, this question (in its ultimate form) is deeply meaningful, because it implies the answer which lies outside of the system making the question possible in the first place.
Answer “there’s no point” is also wrong. For the same reasons. May be there is. May be someone created it on purpose, but again we will never know this for sure, at least with existing methods of “knowing”
Biologically? To reproduce. That is the purpose of every living being.
But luckily as humans, we have developed brains so big that we realized that isn't the only purpose of life. For humans, the purpose of life is:
Pleasure.
Doing whatever it takes to make yourself happy, hopefully not at the expense of others. Some people never achieve happiness, some achieve it early with few resources. Some people achieve it over and over as they age and different things make them happy.
In my 20s, building great software and doing well at work made me happy. In my 30s, that continued to make me happy, but since I had some money, adding great meals and fun travel made me happy. In my 40s it's spending time with my kids that is what primarily makes me happy. Who knows what it will be in my 50s and beyond.
You have to find what makes you happy within the resources you have.
But luckily as humans, we have developed brains so big that we realized that isn't the only purpose of life. For humans, the purpose of life is:
Pleasure.
Doing whatever it takes to make yourself happy, hopefully not at the expense of others. Some people never achieve happiness, some achieve it early with few resources. Some people achieve it over and over as they age and different things make them happy.
In my 20s, building great software and doing well at work made me happy. In my 30s, that continued to make me happy, but since I had some money, adding great meals and fun travel made me happy. In my 40s it's spending time with my kids that is what primarily makes me happy. Who knows what it will be in my 50s and beyond.
You have to find what makes you happy within the resources you have.
You’re confusing purpose with inevitability. Why do organisms reproduce? Because if they didn’t they wouldn’t be around—duh!
This is like saying that the purpose of water is to find the path of least resistance.
This is like saying that the purpose of water is to find the path of least resistance.
Happiness is overrated. Every time in my life that I've been happy I've known I am, I realized at that moment that it is going to pass. Just as I realized every time I was miserable that too is not going to last.
Pleasure is above the speed limit. It's in the definition of it.
And the point actually is to learn to drive and take care of your vehicle, understand the local roads and traffic, and play in that playground, or some other. Not to ecstatically crash it all at an early age, having forgot about the breaking functionality.
It gets easier to do if you realize you're one of many, and can learn from what they did before you got here, as well as now, when you're tackling it. You are never, and have never been alone.
Pleasure is above the speed limit. It's in the definition of it.
And the point actually is to learn to drive and take care of your vehicle, understand the local roads and traffic, and play in that playground, or some other. Not to ecstatically crash it all at an early age, having forgot about the breaking functionality.
It gets easier to do if you realize you're one of many, and can learn from what they did before you got here, as well as now, when you're tackling it. You are never, and have never been alone.
Propensity is not the same as purpose, or else we'd say that everything in the universe is already tending to what it is tending to. But if everything is serving its purpose, then we mind as well do away with the word.
“What makes life worth living? No child asks itself that question. To children, life is self-evident. Life goes without saying: whether it is good or bad makes no difference. This is because children don’t see the world, don’t observe the world, don’t contemplate the world, but are so deeply immersed in the world that they don’t distinguish between it and their own selves. Not until … a distance appears between what they are and what the world is, does the question arise: what makes life worth living?” — Karl Ove Knausgård
Said better than I could ever try.
Said better than I could ever try.
[deleted]
From my own experience this might have only been true before the age of 4 when I woke up to the world. After that only when I am so strongly identified with and attached to what is going on that it's unhealthy. Or when I have gotten it all so Zen that I don't have to decide anything, everything flows.
Some kids would disagree: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28861912
Wtf japan, that was dark
Do you want to be a child?
When I was younger I was a big fan of existentialism. "Life has no prescribed inherent meaning, it is whatever you want it to be!" seemed very freeing.
Then I suffered a disability and came upon the realization similar to Helen Macdonalds, in H is for Hawk:
"There is a time in life when you expect the world to be always full of new things. And then comes a day when you realise that is not how it will be at all.
You see that life will become a thing made of holes. Absences. Losses. Things that were there are no longer. And you realise, too, that you have to grow around and between the gaps, [...]"
In an effort to adapt to this, I clung to stoicist philosophy. Life is to be weathered, through the development of virtues, and above all else--realizing what you have control over, and what you do not.
Upon becoming homeless, I realized this wise and practical branch of philosophy had not exactly delivered on it's promises. You cannot be destitute, sick, and isolated, and still manage to be happy, despite Stoicist claims to the contrary. This branch of philosophy oddly seems entitled to me now--little wonder it grew popular with intelligentsia, emperors, and now tech CEOs. I grew to far prefer its philosophical progenitor, Cynicism.
For this phase of my life, Albert Camus resonates and brings comfort. Life is absurd. The challenge is not to unravel or create meaning for life, but to image personal happiness in a stochastic world that defies explanation (though some such explanation may indeed exist, it is certainly absurd to human minds. I envy the dismissive confidence of those that proclaim "no point!")
This philosophy has served me far better than the others, though who knows what will come in the twilight of my life. Life is strange, fellow travelers.
Then I suffered a disability and came upon the realization similar to Helen Macdonalds, in H is for Hawk:
"There is a time in life when you expect the world to be always full of new things. And then comes a day when you realise that is not how it will be at all.
You see that life will become a thing made of holes. Absences. Losses. Things that were there are no longer. And you realise, too, that you have to grow around and between the gaps, [...]"
In an effort to adapt to this, I clung to stoicist philosophy. Life is to be weathered, through the development of virtues, and above all else--realizing what you have control over, and what you do not.
Upon becoming homeless, I realized this wise and practical branch of philosophy had not exactly delivered on it's promises. You cannot be destitute, sick, and isolated, and still manage to be happy, despite Stoicist claims to the contrary. This branch of philosophy oddly seems entitled to me now--little wonder it grew popular with intelligentsia, emperors, and now tech CEOs. I grew to far prefer its philosophical progenitor, Cynicism.
For this phase of my life, Albert Camus resonates and brings comfort. Life is absurd. The challenge is not to unravel or create meaning for life, but to image personal happiness in a stochastic world that defies explanation (though some such explanation may indeed exist, it is certainly absurd to human minds. I envy the dismissive confidence of those that proclaim "no point!")
This philosophy has served me far better than the others, though who knows what will come in the twilight of my life. Life is strange, fellow travelers.
As I have grown older and some of my vim and vigor have waned, the momentum that has hustled me past obstacles and over life's hurdles has similarly decreased, and I find myself wondering the same. The objects I have collected have lost their pallor, experiences for which I have paid through the nose left me hollow, the connections I once thought complex are shallow.
Through more than one circumstance of birth I have been forced on the proverbial path less trodden and I can't say it has been amazingly fulfilling. Of course, one can look at another and suspect how wonderful or terrible their life is, but that is all you have, suspicion. Friends who are married, friends who have children, some ... seem satisfied?
And then things go on and you become closer to the end of life than the start of it, more doors are closed than are open, and you wonder what -- if anything -- lies between here and the final trainstop, and if it is indeed worthwhile. You get a distant Peggy Lee "Is That All There Is?" detachment. The philosophers will tell you to assign some kind of arbitrary value and meaning and it is a bit like being thrown off of an infinite cliff and being told that you should assign the bottom of your soles as "h = 0" in that it lacks satisfaction as an answer.
I haven't anything to offer but a nod of recognition.
Through more than one circumstance of birth I have been forced on the proverbial path less trodden and I can't say it has been amazingly fulfilling. Of course, one can look at another and suspect how wonderful or terrible their life is, but that is all you have, suspicion. Friends who are married, friends who have children, some ... seem satisfied?
And then things go on and you become closer to the end of life than the start of it, more doors are closed than are open, and you wonder what -- if anything -- lies between here and the final trainstop, and if it is indeed worthwhile. You get a distant Peggy Lee "Is That All There Is?" detachment. The philosophers will tell you to assign some kind of arbitrary value and meaning and it is a bit like being thrown off of an infinite cliff and being told that you should assign the bottom of your soles as "h = 0" in that it lacks satisfaction as an answer.
I haven't anything to offer but a nod of recognition.
Whenever that happened to myself, I'd start over in a different space. New rules, new acquaintances, new things, and new experiences.
Get out the house. No.
Sell it and move. Move somewhere you would expect to be surprised. Do something you would not expect yourself to do for a living. Experience a new life, a new meaning.
Give it 7-15 years and you may want to do it again. It's good for you.
Get out the house. No.
Sell it and move. Move somewhere you would expect to be surprised. Do something you would not expect yourself to do for a living. Experience a new life, a new meaning.
Give it 7-15 years and you may want to do it again. It's good for you.
That isn't an option for me.
If action is not an option and inaction leads to suffering, are you settled on suffering? That doesn't seem right.
At least dedicate the appropriate amount of time to this, methinks. Put "explore immediate surroundings, going-ons, and people" into your weekly schedule, and do.
At least dedicate the appropriate amount of time to this, methinks. Put "explore immediate surroundings, going-ons, and people" into your weekly schedule, and do.
I really appreciated this, thanks.
Here's a nod back.
In the spirit of recursion my own personal view is that the purpose of existence is to figure out the purpose of existence.
There are many questions we aren't really close to answering and our knowledge of this universe is very incomplete. Ultimately if we are able to develop a complete understanding of this universe down to the very origins of existence with no loose ends we can answer the question why we exist. So that's the goal. Help humanity answer this question. It might not be answered in your lifetime but the purpose of existence is not about your life. It's a longer term story that runs over countless generations eventually leading to the answer you ask.
There are many questions we aren't really close to answering and our knowledge of this universe is very incomplete. Ultimately if we are able to develop a complete understanding of this universe down to the very origins of existence with no loose ends we can answer the question why we exist. So that's the goal. Help humanity answer this question. It might not be answered in your lifetime but the purpose of existence is not about your life. It's a longer term story that runs over countless generations eventually leading to the answer you ask.
I'm not sure Hacker News is uniquely good at philosophy. Maybe better read than the median web community.
Life doesn't have a point. All life is different and the only common purpose is to make more of itself and keep going. That isn't a "point" so much as the only behavior that can possibly be self-propagating, in the sense that any form of life that didn't prioritize it would be out-competed and driven extinct by a different form of life that did.
There is no reason that should define you, though. We're a grand cosmic accident. Make of it what you will. I try to find meaning where I can, but if you're looking for grand revelatory purpose, you probably need to find religion, which unfortunately requires a mindset you might not have. I know I don't. I'll be gone soon and it won't make any difference at that point whether I ever existed at all from my no longer continuing first-person perspective. I hope it will matter that I existed to others who outlive me, but they'll soon be gone, too. This universe will end and all information ever created will be lost forever.
Nonetheless, right now, I'm getting a chance to exist, and I'm glad for it. I will be there forever, a tiny indistinguishable speck in the four-dimensional firmament, but there, and right now, from my perspective, I'm here and it's better than not being here.
Life doesn't have a point. All life is different and the only common purpose is to make more of itself and keep going. That isn't a "point" so much as the only behavior that can possibly be self-propagating, in the sense that any form of life that didn't prioritize it would be out-competed and driven extinct by a different form of life that did.
There is no reason that should define you, though. We're a grand cosmic accident. Make of it what you will. I try to find meaning where I can, but if you're looking for grand revelatory purpose, you probably need to find religion, which unfortunately requires a mindset you might not have. I know I don't. I'll be gone soon and it won't make any difference at that point whether I ever existed at all from my no longer continuing first-person perspective. I hope it will matter that I existed to others who outlive me, but they'll soon be gone, too. This universe will end and all information ever created will be lost forever.
Nonetheless, right now, I'm getting a chance to exist, and I'm glad for it. I will be there forever, a tiny indistinguishable speck in the four-dimensional firmament, but there, and right now, from my perspective, I'm here and it's better than not being here.
Some people might shy away from answering this question for fear of coming off as pretentious but the way that I see it is that we all implicitly act out our belief about the meaning of life through our words and actions (or silence and inaction). So you might as well get clear on your own belief. The trippy thing is that some people probably live an entire life without getting clear on this question. For me it's joie de vivre [1]. Joy is my north star in a very primal sense of that phrase (imagine you're navigating a terrain you've never been through and you're relying on the star to keep you in the general correct direction... you never know what's ahead but you can always know whether you're heading towards the star or away or you've lost it entirely). I don't have a clear singular purpose in my life. But it's easy for me to tell when I'm doing something that brings me closer to or further from joy. Right now I'm sitting in Golden Gate Park, sipping a coffee, reading a book about the history/ecology/etc. of Joshua Tree. I'm at peace right now because that star is directly ahead of me. I'll leave it at that and also mention that I wax philosophical a bit in my "sabbatical prologue" post [2].
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joie_de_vivre
[2] https://kayce.basqu.es/sabbatical/prologue
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joie_de_vivre
[2] https://kayce.basqu.es/sabbatical/prologue
God said: "...men are, that they might have joy." (https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-... verse 25, "men/man" meaning people, of course, as below.)
And He also said: "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/mos... verse 39.)
Consider that: God's purpose is for our eternal benefit, and the purpose of life is joy.
I have learned for myself that the above is true, that mercy and justice are real, and our choices matter, and life, while legitimately full of hard things, does have purpose and can lead to peace, and eternal life. This mortality is not the beginning or the end, for sure.
There is so much more, and I have found (amid divorce/remarriage, long-term health issues, mistakes, sweet grandchildren now, and a variety of learning experiences) that it really, really helps, and life is good.
Edit: minor wording clarifications.
And He also said: "For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man." (https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/mos... verse 39.)
Consider that: God's purpose is for our eternal benefit, and the purpose of life is joy.
I have learned for myself that the above is true, that mercy and justice are real, and our choices matter, and life, while legitimately full of hard things, does have purpose and can lead to peace, and eternal life. This mortality is not the beginning or the end, for sure.
There is so much more, and I have found (amid divorce/remarriage, long-term health issues, mistakes, sweet grandchildren now, and a variety of learning experiences) that it really, really helps, and life is good.
Edit: minor wording clarifications.
Meh. Invisible man in the sky not doing it for me. Too much pain and suffering on this planet. I used to believe in God. Until I learned about the Holocaust.
One death camp survivor wrote: "If there's a God he owes me an apology.
Thanks for your commment. I belive in a being who said "Blessed are all they that mourn, for they shall be comforted.", and who is utterly able to keep that promise. Our current vision is limited. I have found that one can know this for oneself, not just because someone said so, and doesn't have to believe "fairy tales". There's more at my web site, how I learned this. (not selling anything, but honest feedback is appreciated.)
If God is not good then he doesn't exist?
I'm not sure I can follow that logic.
Suffering seems to be part of the life of every biblical hero. Christ suffered horribly as part of his ordained purpose.
The entire book of Job explores the suffering of Gods chosen faithful followers.
It's deeply woven into theology.
I'm not sure I can follow that logic.
Suffering seems to be part of the life of every biblical hero. Christ suffered horribly as part of his ordained purpose.
The entire book of Job explores the suffering of Gods chosen faithful followers.
It's deeply woven into theology.
You make an important point about pain and suffering, and I should have added: there are reasons it happens, and it might be summarized as: 1) we are in a "fallen" or very imperfect world, and things happen that are hard, even evil sometimes. 2) Part of the purpose of life is to learn from our choices, and also to grow from going through and doing hard things. 3) We sometimes make choices that hurt others, and all will be judged according to their knowledge, and will have an opportunity to choose better, at some point. 4) We knew at least some of this before we came to mortality, and we chose to come here. 5) Direction in general and personally are available to each of us, if we seek it. And one can know for oneself if this is true, or not--not just having to believe what another mortal tells you, with no real/good corroboration and testing/verification (with which I am satisfied).
Everyone will be healed and have opportunities to choose right from wrong along their path, and rewards/punishments correspond to our choices. Forgiveness is available to those who choose that path.
(Edits: minor clarification.)
Everyone will be healed and have opportunities to choose right from wrong along their path, and rewards/punishments correspond to our choices. Forgiveness is available to those who choose that path.
(Edits: minor clarification.)
> Invisible man in the sky not doing it for me.
Reasonable. Because such an understand of (the Christian) God is indeed simplistic. But most folks don't have the time or energy to get into theology and the notion of (e.g.) Aquinas of God being "ipsum esse subsistens": "the shear act of 'to be' itself."
* https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/9781351477703
> I used to believe in God. Until I learned about the Holocaust. One death camp survivor wrote: "If there's a God he owes me an apology.
The faith of plenty of folks in the concentration camps didn't seem to be phased much by what they endured:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_Barracks_of_Dachau_Conc...
Suffering is not new, especially for Christians: the first three centuries weren't very pleasant. By tradition the Pope often wears red shoes to remember the martyrs.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_shoes
As Tertullian wrote "the blood of the Christians is the seed of a new life":
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologeticus
This predates things in the Christian tradition with the Book of Job; Bp. Barron has a few good videos on suffering:
> In the Bible no one seems to think that God's existence, indeed the existence of a loving God, is somehow incompatible with suffering.
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfK5xYK0EzQ
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07AWWJiyAU8
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9WNWplC_zI
Reasonable. Because such an understand of (the Christian) God is indeed simplistic. But most folks don't have the time or energy to get into theology and the notion of (e.g.) Aquinas of God being "ipsum esse subsistens": "the shear act of 'to be' itself."
* https://www.taylorfrancis.com/books/9781351477703
> I used to believe in God. Until I learned about the Holocaust. One death camp survivor wrote: "If there's a God he owes me an apology.
The faith of plenty of folks in the concentration camps didn't seem to be phased much by what they endured:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximilian_Kolbe
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priest_Barracks_of_Dachau_Conc...
Suffering is not new, especially for Christians: the first three centuries weren't very pleasant. By tradition the Pope often wears red shoes to remember the martyrs.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_shoes
As Tertullian wrote "the blood of the Christians is the seed of a new life":
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apologeticus
This predates things in the Christian tradition with the Book of Job; Bp. Barron has a few good videos on suffering:
> In the Bible no one seems to think that God's existence, indeed the existence of a loving God, is somehow incompatible with suffering.
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfK5xYK0EzQ
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07AWWJiyAU8
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9WNWplC_zI
Now that I've read this comment I find mine redundant.
I don't think it has a capital-P Point, but I don't really experience this as a problem. When you zoom out all the way, humans are vanishingly small. In a billion years, nobody will remember who we were (except perhaps some scholars specializing in 2nd/3rd millennium history, if we become really famous in our time) and a billion years isn't even all that long in cosmological terms.
Some people find this idea really bleak, but there is also a form of liberation in it. You have some time given to you, and at the end of it your atoms will disperse and perhaps become someone else, or a cloud, or whatever. In the meantime, you can do things that make sense to you. Some people dedicate themselves to work, a musical instrument or family. These are all choices you can make, or any combination thereof. Pick one that makes you happy or satisfied in some way.
So no, I don't think there is any "point" to life, certainly not some point that is the same for everyone. But life not having a point does not mean it can't be enjoyable.
Some people find this idea really bleak, but there is also a form of liberation in it. You have some time given to you, and at the end of it your atoms will disperse and perhaps become someone else, or a cloud, or whatever. In the meantime, you can do things that make sense to you. Some people dedicate themselves to work, a musical instrument or family. These are all choices you can make, or any combination thereof. Pick one that makes you happy or satisfied in some way.
So no, I don't think there is any "point" to life, certainly not some point that is the same for everyone. But life not having a point does not mean it can't be enjoyable.
The rational answer is, of course, that ultimately there is no point.
However, there’s also no rational reason why this question should bother you - that is an emotion.
In a normal hormonally balanced brain, endorphins encourage you not to dwell on such questions emotionally.
If you find yourself consumed by it, then you might want to look into why you are feeling that way. It’s possible that you are suffering from mild depression.
However, there’s also no rational reason why this question should bother you - that is an emotion.
In a normal hormonally balanced brain, endorphins encourage you not to dwell on such questions emotionally.
If you find yourself consumed by it, then you might want to look into why you are feeling that way. It’s possible that you are suffering from mild depression.
“A trivial problem”, the wise alignItems retorted: “that which is out of the ordinary or a symptom of something not-normal can be safely disregarded as a pathology. It is only rational.” And everything was good with the world.
If I were to subject you to enormous pain you would cry out for it to stop. If I said "Why? Why does it matter if you're hurting? The universe is vast, you're a speck and you'll die soon enough anyway, as will we all" it would be entirely irrelevant. You'd still cry out for the pain to stop. It would still matter very much to you.
Just as "there's no point" is of no consolation in this situation, it should be of no detriment to your experience of happiness, beauty, love, fulfilment, etc.
People who decide that "there's no point" (for some usually ill-defined, abstract interpretation of that phrase), and conclude that this has some actual bearing on their lives, are deluded in a way that leads to nothing good. (I say this having been such a person.)
Just as "there's no point" is of no consolation in this situation, it should be of no detriment to your experience of happiness, beauty, love, fulfilment, etc.
People who decide that "there's no point" (for some usually ill-defined, abstract interpretation of that phrase), and conclude that this has some actual bearing on their lives, are deluded in a way that leads to nothing good. (I say this having been such a person.)
What does "the point" even mean?
The more I think about people's search for "meaning", the more it seems to mean simply a coherent satisfying story.
The more I think about people's search for "meaning", the more it seems to mean simply a coherent satisfying story.
A quote that's stuck with me for decades: "The purpose of life is to give life purpose." It may sound trite, but I've found it to be true. I've lived a life of serialised purpose, increasingly more altruistic than commercial as I've got older.
One of my preferred quotes (by Ray Bradbury):
"Life is trying things to see if they work."
"Life is trying things to see if they work."
If you're lucky you might have a shot at changing the world, or at least having your name attached to something world changing that you – plus a whole bunch of others upon whose shoulders you stood – managed to ship. Some may argue that lucky is not the correct word here.
Away from that, on one dimension you then have the classic supporting-actor role. You baked the bread or brewed the beer that sustained the next Einstein or Estefan. Good job! On the same axis but a bit further removed: maybe you paid the taxes that paid Einstein2's research grant, or put Estefan2 through music school. Again, good job! Taxes are a good if slightly basic way of supporting your local society.
A different and orthogonal dimension is kids. You might directly raise Einstein3, or you might raise the guy who runs Einstein4's pub. At the very least your kids will be paying taxes to support the single mother of Estefan5. You can also support the people who raise kids. You're the solid gal who grows the potatoes eaten by the teachers who taught Estefan6 how to write.
You've got to play a part in society though. Some people withdraw from society and it's the most abysmal thing you could do as a member of a social, cultural, and technological species. I'm looking at you, preppers. Get back over here – back on the the grid as they would never say – and do something useful for the rest of us. Bake some bread! Think of the children!
Away from that, on one dimension you then have the classic supporting-actor role. You baked the bread or brewed the beer that sustained the next Einstein or Estefan. Good job! On the same axis but a bit further removed: maybe you paid the taxes that paid Einstein2's research grant, or put Estefan2 through music school. Again, good job! Taxes are a good if slightly basic way of supporting your local society.
A different and orthogonal dimension is kids. You might directly raise Einstein3, or you might raise the guy who runs Einstein4's pub. At the very least your kids will be paying taxes to support the single mother of Estefan5. You can also support the people who raise kids. You're the solid gal who grows the potatoes eaten by the teachers who taught Estefan6 how to write.
You've got to play a part in society though. Some people withdraw from society and it's the most abysmal thing you could do as a member of a social, cultural, and technological species. I'm looking at you, preppers. Get back over here – back on the the grid as they would never say – and do something useful for the rest of us. Bake some bread! Think of the children!
There isn't one. The point of life is whatever you make it to be. Nothing has inherent meaning or value, until you yourself give it any. Only you can answer that question for yourself.
To ensure the titles in your document are all indented left and are colored in company colors.
/micromanager rant
/micromanager rant
> … company colors.
So, enforcing group identity and tribalism, basically. A lot of people do think of that as the point of life. Being a part of a group and living for the benefit of the group over oneself.
The religious fervor over enforcing style guides makes more sense if it is tied to people’s world view and philosophy of life.
So, enforcing group identity and tribalism, basically. A lot of people do think of that as the point of life. Being a part of a group and living for the benefit of the group over oneself.
The religious fervor over enforcing style guides makes more sense if it is tied to people’s world view and philosophy of life.
Use templates.
"The point of life" implies that there is one.
If there is one, it can come from an external source or from our own subjective self.
The former is what traditional religions claim, and most settle on some form of "praising the Creator" as the point of life.
The latter is probably best captured by existentialism. I would recommend Camus.
If there is not one, then that is nihilism. I would recommend Nietzsche.
I think the choice is between God and Nietzsche. I picked God.
If there is one, it can come from an external source or from our own subjective self.
The former is what traditional religions claim, and most settle on some form of "praising the Creator" as the point of life.
The latter is probably best captured by existentialism. I would recommend Camus.
If there is not one, then that is nihilism. I would recommend Nietzsche.
I think the choice is between God and Nietzsche. I picked God.
> The latter is probably best captured by existentialism. I would recommend Camus.
While I agree with the first part of your comment, I completely disagree with this statement. I'd say the latter is quite well captured by some eastern traditions such as Advaita-Vedanta or Buddhism, especially its essential aspects such as Mahamudra or Dzogchen.
While I agree with the first part of your comment, I completely disagree with this statement. I'd say the latter is quite well captured by some eastern traditions such as Advaita-Vedanta or Buddhism, especially its essential aspects such as Mahamudra or Dzogchen.
For me, the point (for the humanity overall) is getting ever closer to perfection, broadly defined. Every time another Bach or Newton is born we take a small step there. In my own life I hope I get to contribute in some small way, either through direct achievement in my field or indirectly through raising successful kids.
42
(can't believe nobody said this?)
I don't think there is a point to life. Reminds me of this book: https://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Warfare-Three-Enlightenment...
I don't think there is a point to life. Reminds me of this book: https://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Warfare-Three-Enlightenment...
It was the second post, and you were distracted and should be censored for not using the search as morally mandated. (Also, the towel - practical mandate.)
Work backwards from moral and practical mandates and find the Point.
Work backwards from moral and practical mandates and find the Point.
I've assumed for a long time we are living in simulation for marketing research of some kind ... Most likely, in support of an ad campaign to sell toaster waffles in the plane of reality that is simulating ours (but that's just a working theory).
“The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.” - Albert Camus
It’s “easy” to descend into nihilism and the view that human existence is ultimately devoid of meaning. It’s more challenging (and rewarding, in my opinion) to accept the struggle of life as the point of life itself, to keep moving even when it seems like it’s fruitless.
Basically, I stay alive out of spite against nihilism and the impulse that says to give up.
Living also leaves open the opportunity that things will get better and that some meaning will eventually reveal itself. Nihilism and suicide (physical or philosophical) lead to nothingness and annihilation.
It’s “easy” to descend into nihilism and the view that human existence is ultimately devoid of meaning. It’s more challenging (and rewarding, in my opinion) to accept the struggle of life as the point of life itself, to keep moving even when it seems like it’s fruitless.
Basically, I stay alive out of spite against nihilism and the impulse that says to give up.
Living also leaves open the opportunity that things will get better and that some meaning will eventually reveal itself. Nihilism and suicide (physical or philosophical) lead to nothingness and annihilation.
I'd like to add a small point not mentioned in many other comments. The rational, conscious part of the human experience is actually pretty small. Jonathan Haidt calls it the "rider that tries to control the elephant". It is good to occasionally have experiences that are outside the usual rational thinking of daily life. It helps the "rider" remember that the elephant also exists and that it acts on different levels than just logic and conscious thought. In fact, we mostly just use logic to try to explain what the "elephant" already figured out intuitively. It's good to try to listen to it.
I know you're asking from a philosophical standpoint, but to ignore the possibility of a religious answer to your question would be to ignore the essence of the question itself. I have found true meaning in my life and yes, I learned it from the Bible. The answer I found is here, and I have found my life to be very fulfilling as a result, despite hardship, loss, grief, and pain:
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/meaning-of-l...
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/meaning-of-l...
Whatever the point you want it to have, really. You don't need external validation, it's exactly what you, and you alone, want it to have. It can be fluid, static or maybe you can feel you already achieved it.
Maybe it's to do whatever to make yourself happy, or the people around you happy. Money, popularity, love. Maybe it's following others' ideals. Or watch it passively.
Whatever you choose. How grand or pathetic it is, it's also up to you.
This also means no one else can tell what is the meaning of YOUR life, you have to pick it yourself, or not, also your choice.
This also means no one else can tell what is the meaning of YOUR life, you have to pick it yourself, or not, also your choice.
I've found it's true that the point/meaning of life is to find happiness. The trouble is, most of us (including me up until recently) seem to have the wrong idea of what happiness truly is. I've learned (the hard way) that, for me at least, it's less about chasing material success or desires that I can never fully satisfy and more about taking the time to understand all the stuff going on inside my head and figuring out how to wake up every day with peace of mind and giving myself permission to focus on the things I love doing.
One of the things I love doing is making video games (with a lot of help from my son!). But my goal when deciding what game to make isn't to be "successful" by making a lot of money or using it as a springboard to start a business or whatever. If that were the goal I would end up with a completely different game that I probably wouldn’t enjoy making as I would always be consumed by the fear of making something that appeals to as many people as possible in order to maximise profit. It's not about making something I can sell. It's about sharing something I loved making.
I've recently just finished my first original game and it genuinely won't matter to me one bit if no one plays it except me and my son (and hopefully the rest of my family!). I had so much fun making it that I’m actually a bit sad that it’s over! That is the definition of success for me - finding a project that I truly enjoyed working on every day for a year and a half for no other reason that I wanted (needed?) it to exist. That doesn't mean I don't want to make money from the game though if possible! That would be great! But the happiness I get from trying to sell it is completely different from the happiness I got from making it. I'm in the process of trying to market the game now and trying to dive deep into it, looking for ways to enjoy each part of the process. But if I try for a while and can’t find a way to enjoy it, I will just stop and move onto the next game.
So in a nutshell, if I genuinely try to focus on doing the things I love every day (and I have many, many things to choose from - video games is just one example), then I am happy and if indeed there is a point to life, I think being happy every day (in the true sense of the word) is it.
One of the things I love doing is making video games (with a lot of help from my son!). But my goal when deciding what game to make isn't to be "successful" by making a lot of money or using it as a springboard to start a business or whatever. If that were the goal I would end up with a completely different game that I probably wouldn’t enjoy making as I would always be consumed by the fear of making something that appeals to as many people as possible in order to maximise profit. It's not about making something I can sell. It's about sharing something I loved making.
I've recently just finished my first original game and it genuinely won't matter to me one bit if no one plays it except me and my son (and hopefully the rest of my family!). I had so much fun making it that I’m actually a bit sad that it’s over! That is the definition of success for me - finding a project that I truly enjoyed working on every day for a year and a half for no other reason that I wanted (needed?) it to exist. That doesn't mean I don't want to make money from the game though if possible! That would be great! But the happiness I get from trying to sell it is completely different from the happiness I got from making it. I'm in the process of trying to market the game now and trying to dive deep into it, looking for ways to enjoy each part of the process. But if I try for a while and can’t find a way to enjoy it, I will just stop and move onto the next game.
So in a nutshell, if I genuinely try to focus on doing the things I love every day (and I have many, many things to choose from - video games is just one example), then I am happy and if indeed there is a point to life, I think being happy every day (in the true sense of the word) is it.
What is the difference
Between your experience of Existence
And that of a saint?
The saint knows That the spiritual path Is a sublime chess game with God
And that the Beloved Has just made such a Fantastic Move
That the saint is now continually Tripping over Joy And bursting out in Laughter And saying, "I Surrender"!
Whereas, my dear, I am afraid you still think You have a thousand serious moves.
Hafiz
A common thread tying together mystically-inclined philosophers across a wide range of traditions is that one of the reasonable answers for "how then should i live" is "in praise and joy". Look around. Say thanks. Act accordingly.
The saint knows That the spiritual path Is a sublime chess game with God
And that the Beloved Has just made such a Fantastic Move
That the saint is now continually Tripping over Joy And bursting out in Laughter And saying, "I Surrender"!
Whereas, my dear, I am afraid you still think You have a thousand serious moves.
Hafiz
A common thread tying together mystically-inclined philosophers across a wide range of traditions is that one of the reasonable answers for "how then should i live" is "in praise and joy". Look around. Say thanks. Act accordingly.
You make it up. That question, you made that up entirely. The concept of a point of a life, or lives or maybe, the existence of life.
In the same way you should think of an answer. You should. You.
Because right now it's like you're asking me "Who am I?"
Me. About you. Who you are.
That is not my responsibility to decide. I don't know what you are and what your question is about. You do.
But I know you're a thing like me. Because a similar sentiment arises in me, at times. I've learned to not recognize that as a knowledge-seeking thing, but instead as a form of hunger, or thirst.
An indication that time has passed.
In the same way you should think of an answer. You should. You.
Because right now it's like you're asking me "Who am I?"
Me. About you. Who you are.
That is not my responsibility to decide. I don't know what you are and what your question is about. You do.
But I know you're a thing like me. Because a similar sentiment arises in me, at times. I've learned to not recognize that as a knowledge-seeking thing, but instead as a form of hunger, or thirst.
An indication that time has passed.
To make connections in new and surprising ways that you talk about to other people.
Or
The point of life is to increase entropy.
Or
The point of life is to secure resources that allow that life to continue on in the way that that life decides to, based on that life’s structure
Or
The point of life is to increase entropy.
Or
The point of life is to secure resources that allow that life to continue on in the way that that life decides to, based on that life’s structure
> to increase entropy
Maybe to decrease it.
Maybe to decrease it.
That endeavour would be pretty much futile, would it not? The momentum in the other direction is built into the world physics, the rules of the game, is it not?
Would that not lead to a frustrating life?
Would that not lead to a frustrating life?
Ctrl + f entropy
I like your first answer better, even if I agree with it less.
I like your first answer better, even if I agree with it less.
I'm childfree so I'm on the leanFIRE track, pursuing my hobbies in my spare time. When I'm physically incapable of them or I run out of money (around 70), I plan to kill myself.
Congrats on some successes. I hope you continue to find things that bring joy.
But please don't harm yourself or anyone -- not now, not later.
I have learned for myself that life has purpose and is worthwhile, even when one can't move without pain and it is hard to maintain good thoughts -- such things can be learning experiences that help us move forward later, into the next life, when we will still be ourselves and can take with us the things we have learned and become (on the inside). It is so very worthwhile. I have commented more elsewhere in this discussion.
(edit: s/now/not/ )
But please don't harm yourself or anyone -- not now, not later.
I have learned for myself that life has purpose and is worthwhile, even when one can't move without pain and it is hard to maintain good thoughts -- such things can be learning experiences that help us move forward later, into the next life, when we will still be ourselves and can take with us the things we have learned and become (on the inside). It is so very worthwhile. I have commented more elsewhere in this discussion.
(edit: s/now/not/ )
I don't know. If I sit down with my back straight and close my eyes, I can, in the space of 3-5 minutes, infallibly find the inner joy rising up from my body. Same way that something's kinda tense, and something's kinda sat on – there is a form of joy.
I hear it is never lost, lest you're actually dead or in the process of.
So I don't know about that.
I hear it is never lost, lest you're actually dead or in the process of.
So I don't know about that.
Good for you. I wish I could do that, just will myself to be happy at any time. I wish alcoholics or drug addicts could will themselves to stop using drugs. I wish the obese (40% of Americans) could simply choose to eat less food and start exercising. If we could all choose to be happy regardless of circumstances, there would be no problems in the world.
I wish that for you too.
I've been struggling with "neurosis-based" depression all my life. They still don't have a cure for that. You know what the medical consensus is? Breathe.
That appeared in 2015.
And I have myself discovered Wim Hoff independently of medical science the year before. That got me started.
Maybe it could get you started too.
<3
I've been struggling with "neurosis-based" depression all my life. They still don't have a cure for that. You know what the medical consensus is? Breathe.
That appeared in 2015.
And I have myself discovered Wim Hoff independently of medical science the year before. That got me started.
Maybe it could get you started too.
<3
There are some non-dualists who claim to have an answer to that question. Basically according to them consciousness divided itself in order to experience all the various forms of existence and from the point of view of the (illusory) individual self the goal is to discover that they are in truth nothing other than primordial consciousness (ie. what some call God).
Personally I find that explanation circular and unsatisfying. So the goal of life is to get back to what you were before life began, what's the point ?
Personally I find that explanation circular and unsatisfying. So the goal of life is to get back to what you were before life began, what's the point ?
Ancient hebrews used the telling of personified stories to explain concepts about tribe dynamics that are mathematical in nature. Perhaps something similar is going on here, and you misunderstand the text.
Maybe it is to say that when you turn and meet the eyes of another you already know that you're the same basic stuff. That's why you open your mouth and start talking. Because you know you'll get an answer back.
Perhaps the text is there to remind you of the significance of that intuition, and to look for generality in plurality, as a useful abstraction. There are other texts that seem to teach you the use of fear, vision, smell and taste, touch and feel.
Maybe it's a manual for your vehicle, and not some philosophical movement.
Just a thought.
Maybe it is to say that when you turn and meet the eyes of another you already know that you're the same basic stuff. That's why you open your mouth and start talking. Because you know you'll get an answer back.
Perhaps the text is there to remind you of the significance of that intuition, and to look for generality in plurality, as a useful abstraction. There are other texts that seem to teach you the use of fear, vision, smell and taste, touch and feel.
Maybe it's a manual for your vehicle, and not some philosophical movement.
Just a thought.
Doesn‘t every game end where it started?
Games don't usually involve inflicting suffering on unwilling participants.
In the context of the game a lot of them actually do. In this view there is ultimately only you playing with yourself, so there can‘t be any unwilling participants. They are all seen as masks of god.
Yes, but as long as you don't realize you're wearing a mask the suffering seems very real. It seems to me there remains a reality to that suffering even when the ego self that suffered ceases to exist and it's unjust to discount it.
But when the ego self ceases to exist, to whom is it unjust then?
I'm not sure why the order of this thread seems to have gotten screwed up.
In your view (or the view you are defending) is there any reason to be compassionate towards other beings ? If the answer is yes than that compassion should have extended to avoiding all manifestation so as to prevent their suffering.
If the answer is no, because they are just like characters in a novel, then there seems to be a very fundamental difference in morality between this view and most other spiritual teachings, which do teach compassion.
In your view (or the view you are defending) is there any reason to be compassionate towards other beings ? If the answer is yes than that compassion should have extended to avoiding all manifestation so as to prevent their suffering.
If the answer is no, because they are just like characters in a novel, then there seems to be a very fundamental difference in morality between this view and most other spiritual teachings, which do teach compassion.
In the view I am defending there is a reason to be compassionate towards other beings. It is the natural reaction after having realized that you are in essence the same, god in disguise.
The idea that all manifestation should have been prevented to prevent suffering seems to take for granted, that the joys of life are not worth the suffering. I would disagree about that.
The idea that all manifestation should have been prevented to prevent suffering seems to take for granted, that the joys of life are not worth the suffering. I would disagree about that.
> The idea that all manifestation should have been prevented to prevent suffering seems to take for granted, that the joys of life are not worth the suffering.
Yes, because that has always been my experience. I have never experienced a state of joy or happiness that seemed so good that I could see it as justifying suffering. I have however in the past experienced states of suffering so horrible that I would have given anything for them to end.
Yes, because that has always been my experience. I have never experienced a state of joy or happiness that seemed so good that I could see it as justifying suffering. I have however in the past experienced states of suffering so horrible that I would have given anything for them to end.
> To the ego self that
> previously existed and
> previously suffered.
> Is it OK to torture someone
> as long as you make sure to
> kill them afterward ?
In this view the ego self existed before, but only in so far as I exist as the character in a novel, while I am reading it. So I would say yes, it is OK to torture a fictional character if it makes sense in the context of the story.
In this view the ego self existed before, but only in so far as I exist as the character in a novel, while I am reading it. So I would say yes, it is OK to torture a fictional character if it makes sense in the context of the story.
To the ego self that previously existed and previously suffered.
Is it OK to torture someone as long as you make sure to kill them afterward ?
Is it OK to torture someone as long as you make sure to kill them afterward ?
All biological life or human life only?
I assume you mean human or sentient life, rather than life in general.
Me, I like to think we’re here so the universe can look at itself.
On a more pragmatic and personal level, to live, to experience, to be finite yet utterly unbounded. I deal with the nihilistic ocean over which we swim by making a point of stopping to smell the roses - to borrow from Buddha by way of Gandhi - “The Path is the Goal”. To borrow from Ferris Bueller - “Life moves pretty fast. If you don’t stop and look around once in a while, you might just miss it. “
Me, I like to think we’re here so the universe can look at itself.
On a more pragmatic and personal level, to live, to experience, to be finite yet utterly unbounded. I deal with the nihilistic ocean over which we swim by making a point of stopping to smell the roses - to borrow from Buddha by way of Gandhi - “The Path is the Goal”. To borrow from Ferris Bueller - “Life moves pretty fast. If you don’t stop and look around once in a while, you might just miss it. “
The point of life is to enjoy as much as you want. If you want to prove you are the most noble - yes there is a way or most educated, yes there is a way too. You can decide to maximize and minimize whatever you want. Your question comes off as if "What is the point of Life (as decided by someone and I am trying to figure out)". The answer is there is no point set by anyone other than you (or who controls like, if you were in specific countries/area domicile).
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No point. "Don't worry, be happy" is far more relevant than most people think.
My happiest time was a period where I made no plans for anything further than six weeks ahead. I literally lived in the moment. Of course, that is a self-centred attitude, and is almost impossible to maintain if you have anybody else significant in your life.
Everybody is an individual, the point to my life is almost certainly not at all the same as the point to your life.
My happiest time was a period where I made no plans for anything further than six weeks ahead. I literally lived in the moment. Of course, that is a self-centred attitude, and is almost impossible to maintain if you have anybody else significant in your life.
Everybody is an individual, the point to my life is almost certainly not at all the same as the point to your life.
"It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others."
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/mistake...
https://despair.com/
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0535/6917/products/mistake...
https://despair.com/
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Nowadays I'd say, to interact with the world in interesting ways, that you also think are useful for other people. This is once you're generally at peace with yourself, which I'm assuming you are.
It's not terribly important that you get everything exactly right as an individual (even if it was possible). The universe is large enough you can get away with your best honest approximation.
It's not terribly important that you get everything exactly right as an individual (even if it was possible). The universe is large enough you can get away with your best honest approximation.
Do what makes the best story. This often takes the form of an adventure.
Not fantastic adventure, a very boring one. But hopefully it has some of the qualities.
Not fantastic adventure, a very boring one. But hopefully it has some of the qualities.
That's a good direction to set one off. Love it.
I don't enjoy that question the OP voiced in the framing that he used. I think it's a misguided framing, that does not limit the question sufficiently that it might have a chance at an answer. Which would lead to quite some frustration, and so a life that is not as enjoyable as it might otherwise have been.
I think the impulse to ask that question should be used productively. As in, "What is the game? Here, right now?"
What is it about what I'm going to do now that I'm going to enjoy? How can I make what I'm doing play instead of work?
I think that works better as a general approach.
I don't enjoy that question the OP voiced in the framing that he used. I think it's a misguided framing, that does not limit the question sufficiently that it might have a chance at an answer. Which would lead to quite some frustration, and so a life that is not as enjoyable as it might otherwise have been.
I think the impulse to ask that question should be used productively. As in, "What is the game? Here, right now?"
What is it about what I'm going to do now that I'm going to enjoy? How can I make what I'm doing play instead of work?
I think that works better as a general approach.
There is no point/ meaning/ purpose. Any of these comes from fictions/ narratives designed by other people and are ultimately very arbitrary. However, this apparent lack of meaning is not a bad thing! Cause any notion of good and bad are also random value systems, and that 'there has to be a meaning to it all' is also a random story.
Beauty, creativity, diversity, expanding beautiful things in the world, taking the time to absorb the magnitude of it all.
Also money and hard drugs /s
Also money and hard drugs /s
If you can do all that in the space of a week, week after week, then sure.
I found out that no, I can't actually manage that.
Maybe you can though. Are you trying right now? How's it going, if I may be so familiar?
I found out that no, I can't actually manage that.
Maybe you can though. Are you trying right now? How's it going, if I may be so familiar?
Paraphrasing here from reading this many years ago, but in one of Richard Dawkins' books, the answer someone gave was "I don't know, but I do know I have reservations at my favorite restaurant for lunch and will be having my favorite sandwich." For some reason that has stuck with me.
It all ends up about the same with the heat death of the universe.
It all ends up about the same with the heat death of the universe.
Knowing what it is you will enjoy and planning for it is part of the answer, yes.
Making room for it.
But there is another component, and it is about finding what it is you will enjoy about anything you're about to engage in. Turn your life into play instead of work.
Making room for it.
But there is another component, and it is about finding what it is you will enjoy about anything you're about to engage in. Turn your life into play instead of work.
I'm not certain you'll get a comforting resolution to this niggling question that we all probably have.
The rather uncomfortable truth is that there may not be a point. But this, in some ways, makes it strangely comforting also, because the "point" can be whatever you define it to be. That's the way I choose to look at it anyway!
The rather uncomfortable truth is that there may not be a point. But this, in some ways, makes it strangely comforting also, because the "point" can be whatever you define it to be. That's the way I choose to look at it anyway!
To reject the shackles of organic life and to destroy the concept of death itself and to transcend the limits of humanity.
That's a good and noble purpose.
How has that been going for you, if you don't mind me asking? Got something to share? Something to show?
I'd love to find out more of what you've done with it.
How has that been going for you, if you don't mind me asking? Got something to share? Something to show?
I'd love to find out more of what you've done with it.
Does it have to have a point? I'm still young (early 20s) so maybe there's something I'm missing, but I don't see why there has to be a reason for life.
It exists and as a result, so do you. Enjoy it, do what's right, and maybe we'll be lucky enough to be the first people for whom life doesn't end.
It exists and as a result, so do you. Enjoy it, do what's right, and maybe we'll be lucky enough to be the first people for whom life doesn't end.
On the last part, of life not ending for some, we're already too late.
Discuss.
Discuss.
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There is no point. There is only one point. There are as many points as you can make up. Choose any of these.
Life’s point is to live, and the inherent hope of all* life (regardless of species) is for life to thrive way beyond the term of one individual.
*: Caveats apply.
Life’s point is to live, and the inherent hope of all* life (regardless of species) is for life to thrive way beyond the term of one individual.
*: Caveats apply.
escape life, or the point of life (if there's one)?
i don't think there's a point of life. from a nature perspective it should be reproduce and assure balance in the ecosystem, but as there's way too many humans that ship has sailed.
from the economic perspective you're a pawn to contribute to a "healthy" economy so we all can enjoy our luxuries.
and then there's the individual perspective, where the point probably is what you want it to be.
after realising there's no point at all, for me the point pretty much is "do what you want and what you're comfortable with and try not to worry too much"
i don't think there's a point of life. from a nature perspective it should be reproduce and assure balance in the ecosystem, but as there's way too many humans that ship has sailed.
from the economic perspective you're a pawn to contribute to a "healthy" economy so we all can enjoy our luxuries.
and then there's the individual perspective, where the point probably is what you want it to be.
after realising there's no point at all, for me the point pretty much is "do what you want and what you're comfortable with and try not to worry too much"
Answer largely depends if you believe in god or reincarnation. I do and for me it's quite easy to imagine a lot of things. Improving your actions, help people's, improving the world, having childrens...
I don't believe in either, but my list is quite similar (minus having children). Basically the point is to exert my influence to improve futures as I see fit. I think that statement comes off a bit too selfless; I'm not always concerned with this endeavor.
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I think "attempting to forestall the emerging ecological catastrophe" is a good-enough placeholder for the next few generations.
You can worry about the meaning of life after you have secured its continuity. Prioritize.
You can worry about the meaning of life after you have secured its continuity. Prioritize.
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Why would there be a point?
That's like asking "what's the point of a frog?"
That's like asking "what's the point of a frog?"
To fill frog-shaped holes in the universe.
Many will posit that the entire purpose of life is to search and find the answer to this very question.
I highly recommend meditation, breath work and psychedelic drugs like Psilocybin or LSD for helping you on this journey.
I highly recommend meditation, breath work and psychedelic drugs like Psilocybin or LSD for helping you on this journey.
See what is your nature, then do what fulfils your nature.
Alive and intelligent? Then find solutions in the solutions space. More than alive and intelligent? Then get from there the directions for the solutions to find.
Alive and intelligent? Then find solutions in the solutions space. More than alive and intelligent? Then get from there the directions for the solutions to find.
Chiang Kai-Shek, the dictator of the Republic of China (not PRC) , once said, "The meaning of life is to create more lives. The purpose of life is to improve quality of life for all."
I would go "use of life is for it to go on, and a noble goal is to minimize suffering".
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"Time brings all things to pass
There are no second chances
There's only this moment, and the next
Where everything you want will collide
With everything standing in your way
Purpose and meaning are not to be found in the laws of nature
It is our job to create them"
Lyrics by Delta Heavy - Empire
There are no second chances
There's only this moment, and the next
Where everything you want will collide
With everything standing in your way
Purpose and meaning are not to be found in the laws of nature
It is our job to create them"
Lyrics by Delta Heavy - Empire
AJ Soprano said it best: "Life is absurd." LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt-IOGfs9PY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt-IOGfs9PY
Perhaps my philosophy of life may help; enjoy it, while you may.
The best idea I've found so far:
"The meaning of life is to give life meaning." ‒ Viktor Frankl
It's simple, actionable, positive, personalizable, non-confessional, practical.
"The meaning of life is to give life meaning." ‒ Viktor Frankl
It's simple, actionable, positive, personalizable, non-confessional, practical.
I don't think it it sensible to come back to the question, because the answer is irrelevant to you, you couldn't do anything with the answer.
Progress is the point of life.
With an ultimate goal of preserving life (as we know it) when the Sun dies and Black holes take over the universe(s)
Q. Why did God make you? A. God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.
Alt.
Q. Why did God make you?
A. Sit down with your back straight, close your eyes and shut up for like 3 minutes. Then ask the question.
You will get an answer.
Q. Why did God make you?
A. Sit down with your back straight, close your eyes and shut up for like 3 minutes. Then ask the question.
You will get an answer.
Development.
There is literature about it, by the way, and it could be good for you to explore it if you feel that way towards the matter.
There is literature about it, by the way, and it could be good for you to explore it if you feel that way towards the matter.
That is a part of it, sure.
But there is also Discipline to go with that.
But there is also Discipline to go with that.
My feeble attempt at an answer would be the point is to be in service of others or in the care of others.
Try and leave the world in a little bit better shape than it was when you came into it.
And don't be an asshole.
And don't be an asshole.
On the first point we agree. I'd add that you shouldn't actually use your analytical engine when doing that, but rather your intuition. Because if you actually start measuring and evaluating your progress you'll come up against entropy, which is an opposing law built into the rules of the universe. So it's like working against gravity. You do need to push, but don't be all about just that.
On the second point we strongly disagree.
<3
On the second point we strongly disagree.
<3
a quote from the tv show bojack horseman:
"The universe is a cruel, uncaring void.
The key to being happy isn't a search for meaning.
It's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually, you'll be dead."
The point is what you decide to make its point. You have the free choice, within limits.
There is no point. It's just self-perpetuating cycle. At least for a while...
What is the point of anything?
Probably nothing. Or if there is a point to it, I’m willing to bet none of us will know what it is in our lifetime. So. Ether not to worry about the point of life and instead just enjoy the ride.
I have no idea what the point is but the answer is 42.
I saw a post the other day claiming that, since 42 corresponds to "*" in ASCII, and "*" is often used to represent a wildcard value, the meaning of life is whatever you want it to be.
"To always have your towel with you" is part of the answer.
"To be ready to jump in and swim" is what it would probably be in common English, without the British wink.
Even if there was a point it wouldn't matter
To glorify God.
That's the standard Sunday School answer. It doesn't work for everybody, of course. But for the right kind of believer, it answers the question.
That's the standard Sunday School answer. It doesn't work for everybody, of course. But for the right kind of believer, it answers the question.
Beyond Sunday School, there are a number of different elaborations.
The one I empathize the most with at the moment is that the universe is a crucible meant to prove what is eternal and what is fleeting. You put in a hunk of metal and get out pure gold through a process of burning and discarding all the fleeting things, which necessarily leaves only the eternal.
Therefore for everyone there has to come a death, otherwise you would not be fully tested in all things.
What is left after that testing is God's life within us, but now a fully tested life that has overcome (or persisted through) everything, including death. It is this gold that glorifies God. So suffering and loss are a crucial part of life, which maybe helps explain why we spend most of our life in our declining years and why those years are the most important, as opposed to many other animals that die not long after reaching maturity.
You're supposed to be old and wander around, asking these types of questions!
The one I empathize the most with at the moment is that the universe is a crucible meant to prove what is eternal and what is fleeting. You put in a hunk of metal and get out pure gold through a process of burning and discarding all the fleeting things, which necessarily leaves only the eternal.
Therefore for everyone there has to come a death, otherwise you would not be fully tested in all things.
What is left after that testing is God's life within us, but now a fully tested life that has overcome (or persisted through) everything, including death. It is this gold that glorifies God. So suffering and loss are a crucial part of life, which maybe helps explain why we spend most of our life in our declining years and why those years are the most important, as opposed to many other animals that die not long after reaching maturity.
You're supposed to be old and wander around, asking these types of questions!
Have you considered how horrible it might be to have an answer? Perhaps God created you to make pancakes. Would you feel better knowing that was it?
Prepare to be isekai'd
What's the point of eating a meal or washing clothes?
"Underrated" :) [Edit: very underrated, since somebody downvoted as this comment was written. I guess the downvoter(s) interpreted said acts as routing, while the poster may have indicated "something's behind it"]
The poster knows how to do induction.
The poster knows how to do induction.
there is no meaning to life. the Universe doesn't give a shit. create your own meaning and enjoy that freedom.
to have fun
To keep it going, i.e., have children.
And what of those that cannot? Is their life pointless?
yes, let's create even more people to suffer through life. what a selfish thought.
Believe it or not, some people actually enjoy life.
Those who are lucky may think they enjoy it, for a time, until their bodies wear out and everyone they know dies. But even then their enjoyment comes at the expense of the suffering of other beings.
If you start off with the assumption that life is suffering and any enjoyment is a temporary illusion, no amount of evidence suggesting the opposite will convince you otherwise. But simply looking around will reveal much beauty and happiness, plain for all to see amongst the (also existing) gloom and depression.
Not everyone sees life as unending torment.
Not everyone sees life as unending torment.
I think I've seen both sides. I no longer suffer very much, because I largely recognize the ego self as a delusion. However I experienced intense suffering when I was young. While suffering may not be real in an absolute sense it is very real for those who still cling to themselves.
I don't see any way to justify that suffering just so that some can experience joy and happiness, which as far as I can see have no true inherent value.
I don't see any way to justify that suffering just so that some can experience joy and happiness, which as far as I can see have no true inherent value.
I'm sure some do, but using your enjoyment of life as justification to have a child who has no choice in the matter and could or could not enjoy life themselves is again, selfish.
All the people who intentionally have children? Based on how much people complain about life, I would doubt that.
Many people are hypocrites in that sense.
Many people are hypocrites in that sense.
Irrational. If everyone ceased to have children, the whole bet would be lost. So, it's more complicated than that.
What's the point of life? When's the line of death? And whase hitched to the hop in his tayle?
HN seems uniquely good at philosophical questions, so I was hoping to get your thoughts. I thought about framing the question more, but honestly, "What's the point of life?" is the refrain that I keep coming back to. It would be nice to escape it.