Why the Fuck Do You Trust Harvard?(freddiedeboer.substack.com)
freddiedeboer.substack.com
Why the Fuck Do You Trust Harvard?
https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/why-the-fuck-do-you-trust-harvard
18 comments
Very unlikely. The SAT minimums for unwanted minorities (south Asian and east Asian) are already tweaked to be far higher than for whites (the ones that don’t come through legacy and celebrity/donor/dean’s special paths, that is), let alone for people claiming black/Latino/native ancestry, in order to be able to admit fewer Asians.
The reason this school and others want to get rid of the SAT is that it is a quantifiable measure that can be brought up in court (and has been brought up in court) measuring exactly how much they discriminate against certain minorities. If they wanted to stop discriminating right now, nothing stops them from doing so. (Like Caltech is doing, for instance.)
The reason this school and others want to get rid of the SAT is that it is a quantifiable measure that can be brought up in court (and has been brought up in court) measuring exactly how much they discriminate against certain minorities. If they wanted to stop discriminating right now, nothing stops them from doing so. (Like Caltech is doing, for instance.)
I've never understood why the measure that universities seem to care about is the number of students they reject instead of the number of students above their bar that they are able to educate.
Harvard could easily educate 1-2 orders of magnitude more students than they currently do with their resources. They explicitly choose not to. There are far more students capable of handling and benefiting from a Harvard-level education than currently have access to it.
And for those who are going to respond something akin to that's not the objective Harvard is optimizing, I'm well aware. I'm just lamenting the way things currently are.
Harvard could easily educate 1-2 orders of magnitude more students than they currently do with their resources. They explicitly choose not to. There are far more students capable of handling and benefiting from a Harvard-level education than currently have access to it.
And for those who are going to respond something akin to that's not the objective Harvard is optimizing, I'm well aware. I'm just lamenting the way things currently are.
I don't think any school can educate 300,000 to 3 million students. They might have the money, but it would require a lot more resources, and mist likely sister colleges.
But even so, yes Harvard chooses to keep their acceptance rate low, and that is their prerogative.
I don't agree with all the author's claims, but I do agree that college admissions will never be fair.
Harvard took 57,435 applications and admitted 1,968. In the span of about 3 months, do you really think Harvard admissions offers can fairly and thoroughly review 57,435 applicants? I'm certain more than they can admit of these applicants have near-perfect or perfect GPAs and SAT scores, great extra-curriculars, and everything else "perfect".
At the end of the day you can't expect or depend on getting into X or Y college. It's not even that important. It is important to get into a college that has a a good X program if you plan to study X, but I don't believe there are issues as plenty of under-recognized state schools have a variety of good programs.
Harvard took 57,435 applications and admitted 1,968. In the span of about 3 months, do you really think Harvard admissions offers can fairly and thoroughly review 57,435 applicants? I'm certain more than they can admit of these applicants have near-perfect or perfect GPAs and SAT scores, great extra-curriculars, and everything else "perfect".
At the end of the day you can't expect or depend on getting into X or Y college. It's not even that important. It is important to get into a college that has a a good X program if you plan to study X, but I don't believe there are issues as plenty of under-recognized state schools have a variety of good programs.
> What the fuck do you think has been happening, exactly? They’re standing around, looking at all these brilliant kids from Harlem and saying “oh God, if only we could let in these kids. We need to save them from the streets! But we can’t get past that dastardly SAT.”
Harvard wants to retain their elite ranking in US News/etc. They face a tradeoff between admitting a more racially diverse student body and admitting a student body with very high SATs. When they make tests optional they can admit more Black students without having to report their test scores.
> You think Harvard gives a single merciful fuck about poor Black teenagers?
They do to some extent. They also want to be able to showcase a racially-diverse student body.
Harvard wants to retain their elite ranking in US News/etc. They face a tradeoff between admitting a more racially diverse student body and admitting a student body with very high SATs. When they make tests optional they can admit more Black students without having to report their test scores.
> You think Harvard gives a single merciful fuck about poor Black teenagers?
They do to some extent. They also want to be able to showcase a racially-diverse student body.
> When they make tests optional they can admit more Black students without having to report their test scores.
I want to make explicit that what you're describing here is racism, because I think many people have kind of lost sight of this lately.
You're saying that nothing other than the immutable biological character of one person (Black) versus another (Asian) should form the basis of preferential treatment. I find this abhorrent and wholly incompatible with the notion of a civilized, modern society.
Discrimination in favor of Blacks is racism. Period. What the author was attempting to point out (that you ignored) is that very often the Blacks being admitted are the privileged ones anyway, while highly underprivileged yet talented Asians are completely screwed over.
But no one cares, because the whole thing is a farce. It just needs to look good enough to appease the various despotic progressive forces dedicated to re-institutionalizing racism. This kind of system will never work. It is morally bankrupt in the extreme and it makes me sick just reflecting on it.
I want to make explicit that what you're describing here is racism, because I think many people have kind of lost sight of this lately.
You're saying that nothing other than the immutable biological character of one person (Black) versus another (Asian) should form the basis of preferential treatment. I find this abhorrent and wholly incompatible with the notion of a civilized, modern society.
Discrimination in favor of Blacks is racism. Period. What the author was attempting to point out (that you ignored) is that very often the Blacks being admitted are the privileged ones anyway, while highly underprivileged yet talented Asians are completely screwed over.
But no one cares, because the whole thing is a farce. It just needs to look good enough to appease the various despotic progressive forces dedicated to re-institutionalizing racism. This kind of system will never work. It is morally bankrupt in the extreme and it makes me sick just reflecting on it.
> You're saying that nothing other than the immutable biological character of one person (Black) versus another (Asian) should form the basis of preferential treatment.
My comment was not normative. It was descriptive. I was just describing what Harvard seems to be trying to do. Harvard wants to have its cake and eat it too. They want to have a very high average SAT. They also want to admit more Black applicants. This is one way to do that.
We don't know what the unintended consequences will be. If they put too much of a thumb on the scale, potential employers may adjust their recruiting strategies to compensate.
My comment was not normative. It was descriptive. I was just describing what Harvard seems to be trying to do. Harvard wants to have its cake and eat it too. They want to have a very high average SAT. They also want to admit more Black applicants. This is one way to do that.
We don't know what the unintended consequences will be. If they put too much of a thumb on the scale, potential employers may adjust their recruiting strategies to compensate.
With so few spots available, elite college admissions cannot be fair by definition. Nothing will ever change that. You can’t have an elite institution that everyone can get into. I mean, you can if that’s the goal but then it’s not elite.
I think what most people expect is for the best students in terms of academics and passion for learning get into a “elite” school.
When the armed forces makes an “elite” unit do they let a 400lbs man in just because his dad was Navy Seal? Nope.
Places like Harvard are not elite, they are elitist.
When the armed forces makes an “elite” unit do they let a 400lbs man in just because his dad was Navy Seal? Nope.
Places like Harvard are not elite, they are elitist.
Plenty of coveted places in the armed forces go to ‘legacies’, children/relatives of generals and admirals. Those coveted places are usually not enlisted postings down range in swamps or deserts, but rather West Point admissions for people thick as a brick, or staff officer/general officer promotions for the same kind.
Comparable example: historically, commissions in the British army were literally sold to aristocrats as a form of social credibility: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchase_of_commissions_in_t...
Even then, an elite institution cannot be huge by definition. There will be many, many very qualified applicants who won't get in.
Just another instance of https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html
SATs are the least unfair metric we have for university admissions. And eliminating them will almost inevitably make the system less fair. With that said, I'm not sure righteous (if justified) anger is going to fix this. There's a good chance this could be challenged in court, or by certain employers.
Some people go to college to improve their income potential, some go to college to look for friends who might make good middle managers. The second group have lots of options, including not sitting for pointless tests.
Wow what an angry write up.
The core argument of "If they wanted someone, they can let them in regardless of their SAT" is fairly solid. Academic success is the hardest thing for an elite family to game - so this change is neutral to good for them.