Acute aerobic exercise to recover from mental exhaustion(pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Acute aerobic exercise to recover from mental exhaustion
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34516957/
131 comments
ME/CFS is defined by post-exertional malaise, so by definition it wouldn’t be improved by exertion.
Burnout, however, does tend to respond positively to exercise over time. Burnout and ME/CFS are very different conditions.
> Making this comment because I suffered (and recovered from) ME/CFS myself.
How were you able to recover from ME/CFS? It seems spontaneous recovery does happen to some, though for others it is a chronic condition that will likely require some future medical advances to overcome.
Burnout, however, does tend to respond positively to exercise over time. Burnout and ME/CFS are very different conditions.
> Making this comment because I suffered (and recovered from) ME/CFS myself.
How were you able to recover from ME/CFS? It seems spontaneous recovery does happen to some, though for others it is a chronic condition that will likely require some future medical advances to overcome.
>ME/CFS is defined by post-exertional malaise, so by definition it wouldn’t be improved by exertion.
That's not quite true, because it isn't all exertion that causes PEM. Generally it is only doing too much that triggers it.
That's not quite true, because it isn't all exertion that causes PEM. Generally it is only doing too much that triggers it.
I don’t have ME/CFS but am often stressed, had to quit my last job due to burnout. I don’t agree to avoid exercise for burnout. While in stress I found mild exercise useful to clear the mind and improve sleep. For mild ME/CFS patients it’s also sometimes possible to exercise, there are a lot resources about this topic here: https://workwellfoundation.org/
can you explain what is ME/CFS and how you recovered ?
ME/CFS is a chronic condition characterized by debilitating fatigue and, specifically, post-exertional malaise. Patients who suffer from ME/CFS will have very debilitating negative reactions to any exertion past a certain threshold. The negative reaction can be delayed by 24 hours in some and it can be severe enough to make jobs or daily activities anywhere from difficult to nearly impossible.
Importantly, the delayed worsening can clearly be measured by light exercise testing. It isn’t the same as normal post-exercise recovery or soreness. It’s far worse and can even be triggered by strenuous mental activity (perhaps energy expenditure in general).
For many, it has a distinct viral trigger. They can be fine and healthy one week, then become chronic CFS sufferers after an infection with a number of notable viruses (EBV is common).
Sound familiar? It has a lot of parallels to “Long COVID”, but it just never got the same attention because it’s not attached to a global pandemic in the 24/7 news cycle.
Importantly, the delayed worsening can clearly be measured by light exercise testing. It isn’t the same as normal post-exercise recovery or soreness. It’s far worse and can even be triggered by strenuous mental activity (perhaps energy expenditure in general).
For many, it has a distinct viral trigger. They can be fine and healthy one week, then become chronic CFS sufferers after an infection with a number of notable viruses (EBV is common).
Sound familiar? It has a lot of parallels to “Long COVID”, but it just never got the same attention because it’s not attached to a global pandemic in the 24/7 news cycle.
thank you for your answer, this was very informative, I got caught into the ME/CFS rabbit hole for a few days, sorry for the delay coming back to your comment. A lot of things make sense for my situation of feeling tired all the time, even with some breaks and regular off time I can easily go from well rested to feeling like crap.
I'm really grateful to have seen your comment and that you answered me, I will do some experiments and tests to asses my situation better and check if some of the solutions can help.
I'm really grateful to have seen your comment and that you answered me, I will do some experiments and tests to asses my situation better and check if some of the solutions can help.
My ME/CFS was triggered by a combination of viral infection and various other life stressors. I recovered by removing all the stressors (including quitting my job), then gradually building up my life again with positive uplifting activities and goals. Somewhat similar to Fred Friedberg's protocol.
http://www.cfsselfhelp.org/library/fred-friedberg%2525E2%252...
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/dr-friedberg-intervi...
http://www.cfsselfhelp.org/library/fred-friedberg%2525E2%252...
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/dr-friedberg-intervi...
I'd like to second this question, I'm very interested in any recovery story of CFS.
There are hundreds of accounts of people who have had substantial recovery (thought probably not full) from ME/CFS. The problem is that what works for one person doesn't work at all for 99% of other sufferers. Some people say injections of B12 fixed them up; others move to the desert and get away from environmental issues (and perhaps stress); others benefit from a very gradual incline of exercise; a few have had spinal fusions; and so on.
My wife has had ME/CFS for more than a decade. Honestly many of the touted remedies she finds online sound like snake oil, but if you are suffering and nobody has a good clue, you try each one in turn hoping you might be one of the lucky people who responds to a given modality.
Cort Johnson runs the website Health Rising, which acts as a clearing house for recent news about ME/CFS (and recently long covid as it relates to ME/CFS) and there is a community built around that site.
https://www.healthrising.org/about-us/cort-johnson/
My wife has had ME/CFS for more than a decade. Honestly many of the touted remedies she finds online sound like snake oil, but if you are suffering and nobody has a good clue, you try each one in turn hoping you might be one of the lucky people who responds to a given modality.
Cort Johnson runs the website Health Rising, which acts as a clearing house for recent news about ME/CFS (and recently long covid as it relates to ME/CFS) and there is a community built around that site.
https://www.healthrising.org/about-us/cort-johnson/
There is also an interesting book about a recovery in the dessert “through the shadowlands” by Julie Rehmeyer. Just not practicable for everyone, especially when the dessert is far away like in Central Europe.
There’s a very good subreddit where people share news and their experiences. There also seems to be some overlap between CFS and long covid, Dr. Resia Pretorius has published a lot of work on micro clots in the blood and long covid.
See my prev comment. Happy to share more by email.
Entirely anecdotal, but a lot of professional endurance sports athletes / ultra distance athletes are also high performing PhD candidates/professors/academics. It's kind of weird - if you watch the documentary about the Barkley Marathons, the winners are usually some kind of math/engineering PhD candidate.
Another anecdote - As a kid I was "hyperactive" and struggled a lot in school until my freshman year. Coincidentally, my problems of hyperactivity and poor grades both stopped at almost the exact time I started doing "competitive" endurance sports. I was just now diagnosed with ADHD as an adult in my mid twenties. My diagnosis probably took so long because I've been "self medicating" with exercise for the last ~10-15 years.
I definitely believe the results of this study and I've found them true in my own life. I've consistently used exercise as a reset from studying / working, and often attributed consistent exercise as a key to my productivity.
Another anecdote - As a kid I was "hyperactive" and struggled a lot in school until my freshman year. Coincidentally, my problems of hyperactivity and poor grades both stopped at almost the exact time I started doing "competitive" endurance sports. I was just now diagnosed with ADHD as an adult in my mid twenties. My diagnosis probably took so long because I've been "self medicating" with exercise for the last ~10-15 years.
I definitely believe the results of this study and I've found them true in my own life. I've consistently used exercise as a reset from studying / working, and often attributed consistent exercise as a key to my productivity.
Not just anecdotal, see "Why Do Rich People Love Endurance Sports?" discussed at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19016362
> I was just now diagnosed with ADHD as an adult in my mid twenties. My diagnosis probably took so long because I've been "self medicating" with exercise for the last ~10-15 years.
Also, Jesus. It's as if ADHD is a manufactured diagnosis to pathologize a healthy response to living conditions humans should find intolerable: sitting at a desk all day. I won't link to Born to Run, but it's easy to see that pre-industrial humans (i.e. 99% of the homo sapiens lifestyle) had lives full of physical activity. We call exercise "self-medication" when it is really a sick society that we should address.
> I was just now diagnosed with ADHD as an adult in my mid twenties. My diagnosis probably took so long because I've been "self medicating" with exercise for the last ~10-15 years.
Also, Jesus. It's as if ADHD is a manufactured diagnosis to pathologize a healthy response to living conditions humans should find intolerable: sitting at a desk all day. I won't link to Born to Run, but it's easy to see that pre-industrial humans (i.e. 99% of the homo sapiens lifestyle) had lives full of physical activity. We call exercise "self-medication" when it is really a sick society that we should address.
> It's as if ADHD is a manufactured diagnosis to pathologize a healthy response to living conditions humans should find intolerable: sitting at a desk all day. I won't link to Born to Run, but it's easy to see that pre-industrial humans (i.e. 99% of the homo sapiens lifestyle) had lives full of physical activity. We call exercise "self-medication" when it is really a sick society that we should address.
I'd love for this to be true but all the evidence we have is that it is not true. I don't know if you're diagnosed with ADHD yourself or not, but as someone diagnosed with ADHD this sounds like a cool fantasy. I've also heard people say "well it's just cellphones and TikTok giving everyone ADHD, people just need to practice focusing". I grew up playing ~3 sports at any one time year round, with plenty of outdoor physical activity, running around the neighbourhood. I read books constantly, had very little access to computers, no access to cellphones. I also had terrible ADHD symptoms my whole life, and the only thing that helps reduce the symptoms effectively is medication. I have plenty of coping mechanisms that help but they are not preventative.
I would love not to take medication, as I'm generally averse to taking medication unnecessarily. It's the only thing that lets me choose to work on the things I want to work on, whether chores, listening to people, projects at my job or in my personal life.
The scientific evidence we have about ADHD is that it's highly heritable, that there are clear physical differences in size of certain parts of the brain in people with diagnosed ADHD, and that some children grow out of it as those parts of their brain catch up. It's one of the best examples we have of a disorder with clear physical causes, and the mechanism of the medications we have is also one of the best understood of all brain disorders. It's a dream to suggest it is just some hunter-mode human capability that modern society doesn't have a place for.
It sucks to have it and I wish I didn't, and that's because I want to be able to pay attention to the people I love when they talk to me, not because of some desire to be a perfect cog in a corporation that wouldn't exist in pre-industrial society.
I'd love for this to be true but all the evidence we have is that it is not true. I don't know if you're diagnosed with ADHD yourself or not, but as someone diagnosed with ADHD this sounds like a cool fantasy. I've also heard people say "well it's just cellphones and TikTok giving everyone ADHD, people just need to practice focusing". I grew up playing ~3 sports at any one time year round, with plenty of outdoor physical activity, running around the neighbourhood. I read books constantly, had very little access to computers, no access to cellphones. I also had terrible ADHD symptoms my whole life, and the only thing that helps reduce the symptoms effectively is medication. I have plenty of coping mechanisms that help but they are not preventative.
I would love not to take medication, as I'm generally averse to taking medication unnecessarily. It's the only thing that lets me choose to work on the things I want to work on, whether chores, listening to people, projects at my job or in my personal life.
The scientific evidence we have about ADHD is that it's highly heritable, that there are clear physical differences in size of certain parts of the brain in people with diagnosed ADHD, and that some children grow out of it as those parts of their brain catch up. It's one of the best examples we have of a disorder with clear physical causes, and the mechanism of the medications we have is also one of the best understood of all brain disorders. It's a dream to suggest it is just some hunter-mode human capability that modern society doesn't have a place for.
It sucks to have it and I wish I didn't, and that's because I want to be able to pay attention to the people I love when they talk to me, not because of some desire to be a perfect cog in a corporation that wouldn't exist in pre-industrial society.
Amen. Another documentary comes to mind: The Alpinist (on Amazon). It follows a Canadian climber who ‘solved’ his ADHD by becoming one of the world’s best mountain climbers. Funnily enough, his climbing style was smooth, controlled and relaxed. At a desk, he couldn’t sit still.
How often did he have to climb in order to sit still for a little while? Wondering if I need to exercise 5x a week now in order to concentrate.
The guy was living in a stairwell in a climbing town without a job, so I think "constantly" is a fair guess.
Reminds me of the fact that Alan Turing was a world class distance runner. He would sometimes run commute 40 miles for meetings.
John Carmack is also heavily into Judo and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
Let's not exaggerate. Everybody has hobbies.
Having practiced submission wrestling and bjj for years - it is incredible strenous and requires conditioning to handle at all.
Judo, with it’s focus on grappling standing up is ridiculously hard on the body, and is not something you just pick up late in life and chill with. You’d break in all sorts of ways.
Carmack seems to have a serious interest, starting with wrestling in highschool.
> My wife for Christmas once got me a year of privates with Carlos Machado which put me up several levels. There was a period there where I’d have Judo with one of my coaches one day, then privates with Carlos the other day.”
https://bjjtribes.com/john-carmack-details-his-bjj-and-judo-...
Judo, with it’s focus on grappling standing up is ridiculously hard on the body, and is not something you just pick up late in life and chill with. You’d break in all sorts of ways.
Carmack seems to have a serious interest, starting with wrestling in highschool.
> My wife for Christmas once got me a year of privates with Carlos Machado which put me up several levels. There was a period there where I’d have Judo with one of my coaches one day, then privates with Carlos the other day.”
https://bjjtribes.com/john-carmack-details-his-bjj-and-judo-...
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That's about 1.5 marathons each way for a meeting?
Apparently. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing#Cryptanalysis:
While working at Bletchley, Turing, who was a talented long-distance runner, occasionally ran the 40 miles (64 km) to London when he was needed for meetings, and he was capable of world-class marathon standards. Turing tried out for the 1948 British Olympic team, but he was hampered by an injury. His tryout time for the marathon was only 11 minutes slower than British silver medallist Thomas Richards' Olympic race time of 2 hours 35 minutes. He was Walton Athletic Club's best runner, a fact discovered when he passed the group while running alone. When asked why he ran so hard in training he replied:
I have such a stressful job that the only way I can get it out of my mind is by running hard; it’s the only way I can get some release.
That doesn’t say he ran back, to, though. Maybe call that a half-commute?
https://mathshistory.st-andrews.ac.uk/Extras/Turing_running:
Alan Turing ran a little while he was at Sherbourne school, usually when football was cancelled because of bad weather. He did not run while an undergraduate at Cambridge, preferring to row, but once he had won his fellowship to King's College he began to run more seriously, his frequent route being from Cambridge to Ely and back, a distance of around 50 km. He did a little running while at Bletchley but only when he moved to the National Physical Laboratory did he take up running more seriously
While working at Bletchley, Turing, who was a talented long-distance runner, occasionally ran the 40 miles (64 km) to London when he was needed for meetings, and he was capable of world-class marathon standards. Turing tried out for the 1948 British Olympic team, but he was hampered by an injury. His tryout time for the marathon was only 11 minutes slower than British silver medallist Thomas Richards' Olympic race time of 2 hours 35 minutes. He was Walton Athletic Club's best runner, a fact discovered when he passed the group while running alone. When asked why he ran so hard in training he replied:
I have such a stressful job that the only way I can get it out of my mind is by running hard; it’s the only way I can get some release.
That doesn’t say he ran back, to, though. Maybe call that a half-commute?
https://mathshistory.st-andrews.ac.uk/Extras/Turing_running:
Alan Turing ran a little while he was at Sherbourne school, usually when football was cancelled because of bad weather. He did not run while an undergraduate at Cambridge, preferring to row, but once he had won his fellowship to King's College he began to run more seriously, his frequent route being from Cambridge to Ely and back, a distance of around 50 km. He did a little running while at Bletchley but only when he moved to the National Physical Laboratory did he take up running more seriously
Only if it’s Turing Complete.
Turing Compete?
you just won the internet :D
> professional endurance sports athletes / ultra distance athletes are also high performing PhD candidates
There are three ways to slice this fact, depends on who you ask. And I've asked a lot of people, because India treated "sports" as the refuge of those who cannot cut it in academics & I had two decades of people telling me to "quit running around, sit and study" which I had to unlearn in my 30s.
First is that thinking is not just limited by the "hardware" / displacement of your brain engine, but the consumable for doing it - that when I go for a walk and kick up my heart to 130 bpm, my brain is getting the equivalent of a turbo boost (literally, more oxygen to burn). The same applies to the glucose out of the liver, where a runner trains to feel the second wind coming even when the thing burning through glucose is their brain. And I've found that I can burn through a lot playing chess - heart-rates up by +30, extremities go cold and hunger stops when I'm thinking hard (or losing). Lower your heart-rate sitting still, the more boost you can push when needed.
But there's also a problem with selection bias.
Second is that running or endurance sports is not entirely physical. Nobody is chasing you to run, you are running on pure internal motivation & that selects for people who are good at staying on a chase. The mindset needed to keep running 10+ miles is basically why we tell people "this is marathon, not a sprint" when it comes to putting in time into something new. Because the mindset is about pacing, not absolute pace (the swimming scene in Gattaca comes to mind). I think this is selected for but like muscles it grows with use; you can evolve your mindset closer to being a persistence predator of ideas, beyond boredom.
Third is that the resources needed to be an amazing endurance runner and a PhD candidate are correlated - you need to focus away from paying the bills and work on doing something which has a slow burn with a very delayed reward. You need a healthy childhood, you need time to go running and you need a culture which values physical fitness as either a military tool (the himalayan hikes I went to were full of israelis in their 20s) or social status symbol (a somewhat post-scarcity economy).
I can't run as fast or in competitive fashion, a half marathon is my distance of choice, but I running for the first two reasons and can keep doing it for the third.
There are three ways to slice this fact, depends on who you ask. And I've asked a lot of people, because India treated "sports" as the refuge of those who cannot cut it in academics & I had two decades of people telling me to "quit running around, sit and study" which I had to unlearn in my 30s.
First is that thinking is not just limited by the "hardware" / displacement of your brain engine, but the consumable for doing it - that when I go for a walk and kick up my heart to 130 bpm, my brain is getting the equivalent of a turbo boost (literally, more oxygen to burn). The same applies to the glucose out of the liver, where a runner trains to feel the second wind coming even when the thing burning through glucose is their brain. And I've found that I can burn through a lot playing chess - heart-rates up by +30, extremities go cold and hunger stops when I'm thinking hard (or losing). Lower your heart-rate sitting still, the more boost you can push when needed.
But there's also a problem with selection bias.
Second is that running or endurance sports is not entirely physical. Nobody is chasing you to run, you are running on pure internal motivation & that selects for people who are good at staying on a chase. The mindset needed to keep running 10+ miles is basically why we tell people "this is marathon, not a sprint" when it comes to putting in time into something new. Because the mindset is about pacing, not absolute pace (the swimming scene in Gattaca comes to mind). I think this is selected for but like muscles it grows with use; you can evolve your mindset closer to being a persistence predator of ideas, beyond boredom.
Third is that the resources needed to be an amazing endurance runner and a PhD candidate are correlated - you need to focus away from paying the bills and work on doing something which has a slow burn with a very delayed reward. You need a healthy childhood, you need time to go running and you need a culture which values physical fitness as either a military tool (the himalayan hikes I went to were full of israelis in their 20s) or social status symbol (a somewhat post-scarcity economy).
I can't run as fast or in competitive fashion, a half marathon is my distance of choice, but I running for the first two reasons and can keep doing it for the third.
Purely anecdotal again. I had absolutely no concentration to write code about 5 years back. I treaded mostly a solutions engineer path since it was the most comfortable option. Somehow stumbled into running and my career path changed. Now I wouldn't say I am a genius programmer but I am certainly much better at design and coding.
Running and lifting weights, surprisingly have resulted in me aspiring for coding tasks that take me to mental exhaustion. Some of the best days I've had are when I am mentally exhausted trying to figure out a solution and just fall asleep at my desk.
The “hyper” in hyperactive seems to suffer from a bias as to where to set the threshold. Given the kinetic energy of school-aged boys, I’m not surprised that a lot of them are diagnosed as such. Granted that a great many deserve the diagnosis, and I have direct experience with this. High/energy “recess” multiple times a day would seem to a good approach to help deal with it.
there's something about walking that also lives in the abstract world of ideas *you walk through a partially lit map of unknowns and ideas) ? that and increased blood flow to your head ? maybe hunting was the original and only problem solving instance that caused CNS to develop.
Personal Anecdote: when I was in an office (before current WFH) and I was mentally exhausted I would go down to the gym, slam slam balls into the floor for 2 minutes without stopping, maybe take a 30 second cold shower, then return to work. Super refreshing and I was gone from my desk a grand total of like 8 minutes.
A quick round of pushups, sit-ups, and air squats is my WFH exercise routine. Do it whenever you’re feeling slow Fromm sitting and it will get your body re-started.
Can be done in 1-2 minutes right next to the desk.
It doesn’t replace a true gym trip but it comes much closer than I ever would have thought before I started doing it.
Can be done in 1-2 minutes right next to the desk.
It doesn’t replace a true gym trip but it comes much closer than I ever would have thought before I started doing it.
I used to go outside of my office and sprint as fast as I could for as long as I could, then cool down with a walk around the block. Then I switched jobs and everyone could see me if I did this so I got embarrassed and stopped. I feel like it really helped, maybe I need to get back into the habit, especially since I’m working from home.
Going from a long period of time sitting to immediately perform an explosive exercise is a recipe for getting injured. Muscles and joints will suffer from it on the long term.
Don't be afraid to set a good example!
did you try other high intensity exercise and found that slamming balls is superior, or slamming balls was just the first thing that came to mind?
I don’t think it really matters all that much. Doing anything is better than doing nothing.
Just do any exercise that’s convenient and don’t overthink the details. Make it as easy as possible to get up and do. The more complicated you make it, the less you’ll actually do it.
Just do any exercise that’s convenient and don’t overthink the details. Make it as easy as possible to get up and do. The more complicated you make it, the less you’ll actually do it.
I tried sprinting on the treadmill and found that too aerobic, and I would sweat at my desk afterwards, and I tried bicep curls and found that not aerobic enough and really just an arm workout.
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> slam slam balls
At first I didn’t realise this was a verb followed by a noun, and thought to myself “damn, these slam slam balls sound like fun!”
At first I didn’t realise this was a verb followed by a noun, and thought to myself “damn, these slam slam balls sound like fun!”
I'm on the top floor so my version is to casually walk up and down 4 flights of stairs 3-4 times and then shower. The entire process takes 15-20 minutes. I feel so much better afterwards.
Sadly I don't frequent a gym anymore, but this is an idea I'd never have thought of.
How did you arrive at this ritual?
How did you arrive at this ritual?
It was kind of a Goldilocks aerobic exercise. I tried sprinting on the treadmill and found that too aerobic, and I would sweat at my desk afterwards, and I tried bicep curls and found that not aerobic enough and really just an arm workout.
I think the specific exercise may be unique but the act usually isn’t. For instance I do the same with a pair of select tech dumbbells. I find that I have an afternoon sleepiness that is dissipated by this.
A heavy bag nearby is almost ideal too.
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Just browsed through the Abstract. Some unrelated thoughts:
I think the issue that most people won't gather up the will to do aerobic exercise after they are mentally exhausted -- even that they know it works to some extent.
Following this, I believe, without scientific proof, that genius (or others who can contribute significantly more than other people) have their mind wired completely different from other people. For example, I know people who are super smart, super energetic, and (in the context of OP article) can switch between tasks efficiently. They don't seem to need cooldown, they always have the will to do something as long as they know it's good for them. In one sentence, they are more like machines.
I wonder if there is a way for ordinary people to achieve that "machine-like" mentality. I'm curious to learn from your experience if you are able to grow from a "weak-minded" people to a "strong-will" one, however painfully. So far I haven't seen one example.
I think the issue that most people won't gather up the will to do aerobic exercise after they are mentally exhausted -- even that they know it works to some extent.
Following this, I believe, without scientific proof, that genius (or others who can contribute significantly more than other people) have their mind wired completely different from other people. For example, I know people who are super smart, super energetic, and (in the context of OP article) can switch between tasks efficiently. They don't seem to need cooldown, they always have the will to do something as long as they know it's good for them. In one sentence, they are more like machines.
I wonder if there is a way for ordinary people to achieve that "machine-like" mentality. I'm curious to learn from your experience if you are able to grow from a "weak-minded" people to a "strong-will" one, however painfully. So far I haven't seen one example.
Routines do wonders. It's only hard the first few times, afterwards it becomes second nature to go and workout after work. It also helps that I've never, ever regretted doing a workout - you always feel amazing.
Another testament to the power of routines: if you get disrupted for whatever reason (travel, vacation, extreme cold, bout of depression) the new routine of not exercising itself becomes second nature.
I wish this was a universal truth. I've had various degrees of success maintaining a steady workout routine during various periods of my life, but I universally hate exercising, even during periods where I'm doing it very consistently. After a good workout, I feel exactly the same as I did aside from being a bit more tired.
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That's not true for everyone. I find the routine of exercise unbearable. It's the primary reason I give up and take months long breaks.
Additionally, do you have kids? Have you ever tried working out and then immediately chasing around a toddler? I regret it every time. The exercise, not the toddler.
Additionally, do you have kids? Have you ever tried working out and then immediately chasing around a toddler? I regret it every time. The exercise, not the toddler.
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It is possible within all humans with the spice melange....
However barring becoming a mentat I've noticed this variation within myself as well and I've noticed the times I am able to go and go and go is when I have a lot of momentum. It seems that doing things that require will naturally result in more will so it isn't that the task is easier but rather my ability to overcome is increased and it is a smaller % of my overall energy expenditure to do.
In accord with this I've noticed that for me taking a "break" is when I get far less done and it becomes much harder to do anything.
I've also seen that when I have things booked back to back to back no matter the density it seems I can keep going so long as I don't stop to think about how tired I am and just keep going. It's when I get breathing room that it seems like everything I've already been doing is impossible.
The other big help for me was Adderall, I have ADHD bad so if I am not working under pressure and a deadline sufficient to release adrenaline I can't do anything. That was until I got my medicine then I finally felt like I could be who I could be without being a nurveous burned out wreck all the time.
That's just my perspective with n=1.
However barring becoming a mentat I've noticed this variation within myself as well and I've noticed the times I am able to go and go and go is when I have a lot of momentum. It seems that doing things that require will naturally result in more will so it isn't that the task is easier but rather my ability to overcome is increased and it is a smaller % of my overall energy expenditure to do.
In accord with this I've noticed that for me taking a "break" is when I get far less done and it becomes much harder to do anything.
I've also seen that when I have things booked back to back to back no matter the density it seems I can keep going so long as I don't stop to think about how tired I am and just keep going. It's when I get breathing room that it seems like everything I've already been doing is impossible.
The other big help for me was Adderall, I have ADHD bad so if I am not working under pressure and a deadline sufficient to release adrenaline I can't do anything. That was until I got my medicine then I finally felt like I could be who I could be without being a nurveous burned out wreck all the time.
That's just my perspective with n=1.
Thanks for the reply.
I also found that I work pretty well when under pressure or someone request something challenging (especially if it's a girl I like :D). However, both are external forces and they don't come very often. It's VERY difficult to find jobs that consistently provide enough challenge because those jobs are very picky about candidates. Neither often there is any request coming from other people.
It would be nice if I can grow an internal force.
I also found that I work pretty well when under pressure or someone request something challenging (especially if it's a girl I like :D). However, both are external forces and they don't come very often. It's VERY difficult to find jobs that consistently provide enough challenge because those jobs are very picky about candidates. Neither often there is any request coming from other people.
It would be nice if I can grow an internal force.
There's an author I follow who shared the basic techniques of Western cultivation schools with respect to will on his blog.
https://ecosophia.dreamwidth.org/tag/will
I suppose it might be a question of whether having enough willpower to start the exercises disqualifies one from being 'weak minded'
https://ecosophia.dreamwidth.org/tag/will
I suppose it might be a question of whether having enough willpower to start the exercises disqualifies one from being 'weak minded'
> I'm curious to learn from your experience if you are able to grow from a "weak-minded" people to a "strong-will" one, however painfully.
Train brazilian jiu jitsu, or another martial art that involves actual physical contact. Mental toughness is a skill that you can develop quickly in endeavors like those.
Generally, pick something that is difficult, or uncomfortable - and do that thing over and over again. It could be as simple a making yourself take 1 minute of cold shower every morning.
Train brazilian jiu jitsu, or another martial art that involves actual physical contact. Mental toughness is a skill that you can develop quickly in endeavors like those.
Generally, pick something that is difficult, or uncomfortable - and do that thing over and over again. It could be as simple a making yourself take 1 minute of cold shower every morning.
Discipline is developed and matured. Religion and stoicism are beneficial.
If it is true (that it has little to do with genetics and childhood education - I kinda treat childhood education the same as genetics because you don't get to choose and are forced upon you), how does one do it? There must be some scientific research on it. Would love to see some long-term (5Y+) follow-up research.
I always found growing strong discipline from thin air similar to pulling one's hair to leave the ground.
I always found growing strong discipline from thin air similar to pulling one's hair to leave the ground.
Anecdotally, 90% of the "machines" I've met, also had a history of exercising significantly more than the average joe
Yeah, but then again it's a chicken and egg problem.
> While widespread strategies to recover from mental exhaustion (i.e., watching TV) are non-effective,
I worked for a startup from 2015 to 2017.
During that time I'd sometimes work 10-14 hours for 2-3 days in a row.
When I was tired after lunch I'd just tell my colleagues I was tired and would take a gaming break and then go play 1 or 2 maps of CS:GO in casual mode before working 5-7 hours more after the brain fog had lifted. It actually worked very well back then.
Not exactly the same as TV since was very active and not relaxing but I feel it was worth mentioning since to counter the idea that only physical exercise can work.
Later I figured out that if I just drop breakfast I don't get hit by brain fog after lunch. This is funny since every health specialist have always told how important a correct breakfast is to stay sharp during the day.
During the pandemic I tried this again but stopped it since now it seems 20 minutes of gaming just wastes 40 minutes of my day. There are some obvious between now and then but I have no clear idea which of them are responsible for why it worked back then but not now. (During the pandemic I worked from home, I also don't eat breakfast mot days and I am older now.)
I worked for a startup from 2015 to 2017.
During that time I'd sometimes work 10-14 hours for 2-3 days in a row.
When I was tired after lunch I'd just tell my colleagues I was tired and would take a gaming break and then go play 1 or 2 maps of CS:GO in casual mode before working 5-7 hours more after the brain fog had lifted. It actually worked very well back then.
Not exactly the same as TV since was very active and not relaxing but I feel it was worth mentioning since to counter the idea that only physical exercise can work.
Later I figured out that if I just drop breakfast I don't get hit by brain fog after lunch. This is funny since every health specialist have always told how important a correct breakfast is to stay sharp during the day.
During the pandemic I tried this again but stopped it since now it seems 20 minutes of gaming just wastes 40 minutes of my day. There are some obvious between now and then but I have no clear idea which of them are responsible for why it worked back then but not now. (During the pandemic I worked from home, I also don't eat breakfast mot days and I am older now.)
If you ever want to do breakfast again, try dropping the carbs. Had a similar problem, and greek yogurt for breakfast solved it for me.
+1 for dropping the carbs to leave the fog behind.
I used to do a large, sometimes carb heavy breakfast (french toast was my goto... with syrup of course). Brain fog killed me. Switched to 2 strips of bacon and 3 eggs instead (bacon done in the microwave, so easy) and that fog has lifted!
I used to do a large, sometimes carb heavy breakfast (french toast was my goto... with syrup of course). Brain fog killed me. Switched to 2 strips of bacon and 3 eggs instead (bacon done in the microwave, so easy) and that fog has lifted!
The idea that "breakfast was the most important meal" was created by cereals manufacturers: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/nov/28/breakfa...
Sam Blankman-Fried of FTX had a Twitter thread about playing League of Legends during work hours to let his brain reset without dumping all of its context: https://twitter.com/SBF_FTX/status/1357123542999916544
It sound funny but it seems like playing cs go for you at the time was equivalent of a mind calming meditation. Especially play easy mode where you get kill streaks which can remotivate you
My pet theory for why it worked back then has been that my brain is easily fooled, sensed a life and death scenario and released adrenaline which sharpened me, but I'm no specialist, I just know some tricks that sometimes work for me.)
1-2 5 min games of chess does it for me
I often think the the imbalance between mental effort and physical effort in modern office jobs causes a lot of problems.
Some of my happiest days were when I trained boxing and weights 2 hours six times a week. It's hard to be depressed or anxious when you are physically exhausted and the feeling of physical strength just makes you feel better. Working out to the point of exhaustion feels like a "reset" for body and mind.
Eating is another thing. When I hike the whole day or backpack for days my eating gets naturally balanced without effort. I eat what I need and that's it. When I work for 10 hours a day at a desk I start craving junk food and have to be careful not to put on weight. And not moving much is physically exhausting. I think that's because in the past usually when you had a lot of mental stress you were under physical threat (e.g. chased by a predator or enemy) and therefore probably needed physical energy. So we react to the typical modern workplace stress by wanting more energy but we never use it.
Any ideas for a career that balances physical and mental effort better (and pays well)? A few years ago I worked near a place where they shot a lot of movie scenes and film production seemed pretty attractive. They spend a lot of time in the office planning things but then they go out for extended periods of time and do the actual shoot.
Some of my happiest days were when I trained boxing and weights 2 hours six times a week. It's hard to be depressed or anxious when you are physically exhausted and the feeling of physical strength just makes you feel better. Working out to the point of exhaustion feels like a "reset" for body and mind.
Eating is another thing. When I hike the whole day or backpack for days my eating gets naturally balanced without effort. I eat what I need and that's it. When I work for 10 hours a day at a desk I start craving junk food and have to be careful not to put on weight. And not moving much is physically exhausting. I think that's because in the past usually when you had a lot of mental stress you were under physical threat (e.g. chased by a predator or enemy) and therefore probably needed physical energy. So we react to the typical modern workplace stress by wanting more energy but we never use it.
Any ideas for a career that balances physical and mental effort better (and pays well)? A few years ago I worked near a place where they shot a lot of movie scenes and film production seemed pretty attractive. They spend a lot of time in the office planning things but then they go out for extended periods of time and do the actual shoot.
Filming with a small crew is more active than sitting in a chair, but only barely, I'd say. There's more standing, at least.
Most of the time you're waiting near the spot where you need to be, or staying perfectly still, or moving but only very slowly.
Film work (even small-scale local stuff) can be really fun but 90+% of the physical activity will be goofing off, for most of the people involved in most shoots. And of course most of the work before and after filming is sitting in front of a screen, like any other office job.
Most of the time you're waiting near the spot where you need to be, or staying perfectly still, or moving but only very slowly.
Film work (even small-scale local stuff) can be really fun but 90+% of the physical activity will be goofing off, for most of the people involved in most shoots. And of course most of the work before and after filming is sitting in front of a screen, like any other office job.
My experience working on movies was lots of time on the road (cumulatively, months of the year) and lots of standing around. This might be different if you were working exclusively in a studio; some roles are certainly more physical than others, of course.
Even the standing around seems way healthier than staring at a computer screen the whole day.
Military special forces or playing a team sport at a high-level?
Those folks are SMART
Those folks are SMART
Probably not viable choices for us skinny nerds :)
The think about getting muscular is that it's I thing you can just decide to do.
Decide + gruelling work.
But it is a choice (to be candid, one I haven't executed on yet)
Decide + gruelling work.
But it is a choice (to be candid, one I haven't executed on yet)
Plumber.
Just want to add to this thread: Walking. Just take a walk no need for something special! If we are talking a workout routine then that's different, but if it's just a mental reset after a challenging couple hours of work then go on a 15 min walk!
Absolutely. Walking is the cheapest, easiest effective exercise there is. Unfortunately so much of the US is not conducive to safe walking. For example, neighborhoods without sidewalks.
Pre Covid my entire team would go on walks once a day, even when it was cold out. I really miss those 15-20 minute excursions, I feel like we all really bonded during our walks and it was a good opportunity to hash out weird things about work and complexity since we had nothing better to do than pick each other’s brains.
How was a nap not one of the compared strategies? A nap that doesn't enter deep sleep (~ <20 minutes) has lots of support for this kind of recovery.
Also meditation
30 minutes of aerobic exercise for 1 hour of mental work is what was assessed. Does it have the same benefits if we have 8 hours of mental work instead?
Anecdotal of course, but when I used to commute daily by bike, the 30 minute ride in the evening would dissipate the brain fog enough to let me work on side projects almost every day until 2am or so, and the morning ride would wake me up from the slight sleep deprivation. So 1 hour bike (both ways) per 12 or so hours of work (including the "night shift").
The thing I miss most about working from home for 2 years now are the bike commutes. But on the other hand I hate exercise and contrary to what most sibling comments were writing I don't believe in workouts and exercises making you feel better. People are different, and for me only cycling works - and hiking, but I guess that comes with fresh air and being away from the city, and it's not something that is doable in short spurts.
Based (only) on the personal experience of going for a run after a day at the computer and then working on a side project, I would say that even after 8 hours you can recover from the mental exhaustion of the day. Not completely, but you would definitely be able to work more/better than without the exercise in between.
What, you don't have time to exercise for four hours a day? /s
I've found this to be true personally. Pre-pandemic I used to go to the gym after work every night. I'd always go in feeling mentally exhausted, and leave feeling mentally refreshed and able to work on some of my side projects for a bit.
Hmmm. Two issues stand out for me.
1. If I'm understanding this correctly, it seems like the active control (stretching) performed worse than the so-called passive control (watching a "popular sitcom"). The Cohen's d for the active control ranged from 0.214 to 0.737, and 0.102 - 0.286 for the passive control. So watching a "popular sitcom" is closer to aerobic activity in its effect on recovery?
2. The abstract says the passive control was watching a "popular sitcom", this is weird. Does this mean the researchers picked a show for the subjects to watch? That doesn't make any sense, if I had to watch a show I didn't select that would be annoying and possibly interfere with recovery. But maybe the researchers didn't
A Cohen's d of 0.2 is considered small and the values for the passive controls top out at 0.286, and apparently there's even a negative relationship with restlessness.
My bet is that if someone tried to do a similar study but instead of picking a sitcom for the subject they allowed the subjects to simply watching whatever TV they would like to watch at the moment, the effect size would disappear.
I am assuming I'm just missing something here, but from my fairly basic, non-expert understanding, it's not possible to draw the conclusions that the authors drew. Furthermore, the design seemed flawed from the beginning (although kudos for providing an active control). The main issue seems to be that their passive control wasn't really passive, it was making subject watch a show that they might not normally watch for relaxation purposes.
1. If I'm understanding this correctly, it seems like the active control (stretching) performed worse than the so-called passive control (watching a "popular sitcom"). The Cohen's d for the active control ranged from 0.214 to 0.737, and 0.102 - 0.286 for the passive control. So watching a "popular sitcom" is closer to aerobic activity in its effect on recovery?
2. The abstract says the passive control was watching a "popular sitcom", this is weird. Does this mean the researchers picked a show for the subjects to watch? That doesn't make any sense, if I had to watch a show I didn't select that would be annoying and possibly interfere with recovery. But maybe the researchers didn't
A Cohen's d of 0.2 is considered small and the values for the passive controls top out at 0.286, and apparently there's even a negative relationship with restlessness.
My bet is that if someone tried to do a similar study but instead of picking a sitcom for the subject they allowed the subjects to simply watching whatever TV they would like to watch at the moment, the effect size would disappear.
I am assuming I'm just missing something here, but from my fairly basic, non-expert understanding, it's not possible to draw the conclusions that the authors drew. Furthermore, the design seemed flawed from the beginning (although kudos for providing an active control). The main issue seems to be that their passive control wasn't really passive, it was making subject watch a show that they might not normally watch for relaxation purposes.
My most effective method for relieving brain fog is doing a few songs in beat saber @ PSVR, works surprisingly well and hasn't failed me so far.
If I feel sluggish and in a generally negative mood on a day when we're having friends or family over for dinner or whatever, my wife makes me play beat saber and it really does help a lot!
My ADHD can make it hard for me to just boot up the playstation, even if I need it and I know it will help, so having a loving wife is great too :)
If I feel sluggish and in a generally negative mood on a day when we're having friends or family over for dinner or whatever, my wife makes me play beat saber and it really does help a lot!
My ADHD can make it hard for me to just boot up the playstation, even if I need it and I know it will help, so having a loving wife is great too :)
If I understand the paper correctly, I have been doing the right thing with biking to the office every day :-). My bike ride takes about 24 minutes one way. I have always looked for jobs at a biking distance from my home.
I had this situation when I lived in Munich. 20 minutes biking through mostly forest. I have never felt that connected to nature since then. After a while you feel humidity, temperature, learn weather patterns,know what animals do. It was really good for the soul.
And it really works better this way. If you just ride around the same block 10 times and then arrive at you job (at home, say) it doesn't feel as good.
If time for gym is limited, I recommend getting a rebounder at home. It is low impact and the workout doesn't feel too hard, but as soon as you're done jumping for about 10 minutes you can feel it throughout the body. 10 minutes a day in the morning does make a big difference in my experience. I recommend a non-spring bungee cord based rebounder, perhaps a used better brand would do.
But if you can run and don't have joint issues, sprints can put you in the best shape possible in about two weeks.
But if you can run and don't have joint issues, sprints can put you in the best shape possible in about two weeks.
Interesting. I wonder if this could be a preventive measure. If I anticipate a likely exhaustion period, would prior aerobic exercise help to prevent or mitigate it?
I can totally relate to this, working from home and having an exercise bike has done wonderful things for my work. One thing I'm curious of (and might be tackled in a follow-up) is if shorter bursts of exercise (perhaps more intense) are just as effective?
In their experiment they find that 30 minutes of moderate exercise is effective. I'd be curious to compare that with for example 10 minutes of high intensity exercise?
In their experiment they find that 30 minutes of moderate exercise is effective. I'd be curious to compare that with for example 10 minutes of high intensity exercise?
HIIT (high intensity interval training) is a very time efficient way of getting a great workout with lots of benefits.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-intensity_interval_trai...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-intensity_interval_trai...
This is quite interesting -- I think digging into how long this would be efficient for would be interesting.
I often feel that the most refreshed I feel is if I combine high intensity aerobics with the outdoors -- something about the ocean or forest always bring peace and makes me feel focused for the rest of the day. It would be nice to dig into how setting us also helps.
I often feel that the most refreshed I feel is if I combine high intensity aerobics with the outdoors -- something about the ocean or forest always bring peace and makes me feel focused for the rest of the day. It would be nice to dig into how setting us also helps.
I work out every day after work. I've noticed there's no relationship between 'metal exhaustion' and being too physically exhausted to workout. It doesn't matter how "tough" your day was. It has no real impact on your physical ability there, and you will not feel as "tired" when you leave.
>Subsequently, they were randomized to one of three treatments: 30 min of moderate aerobic exercise on a cycle ergometer, 30 min of a simple lower body stretching routine (= active control treatment) or watching a popular sitcom (= passive control treatment).
Watching sitcoms stresses me out. And I hate most of them.
Watching sitcoms stresses me out. And I hate most of them.
The keyword there is "aerobic".
Weight lifting is not aerobic, it is anaerobic.
If you run/cycle/etc beyond your lactate threshold heartrate, you've now switched from aerobic to anaerobic.
Easy to google for more info if this seems interesting/important to you, just a "heads up" to the concept.
Weight lifting is not aerobic, it is anaerobic.
If you run/cycle/etc beyond your lactate threshold heartrate, you've now switched from aerobic to anaerobic.
Easy to google for more info if this seems interesting/important to you, just a "heads up" to the concept.
> Weight lifting is not aerobic, it is anaerobic.
Heavy low repetition lifting is anaerobic, but around 15-20+ repetitions with lighter weights it becomes aerobic.
Heavy low repetition lifting is anaerobic, but around 15-20+ repetitions with lighter weights it becomes aerobic.
Super sets of 80+ reps is definitely cardio, especially on legs day.
What's your heart rate after the first 20 or so?
If it's beyond 70% max heart rate, you are likely going anaerobic, muscles and heart start switch from fat to glycogen to ATP as the demand increases.
It's like a runner doing "speed work" on a track. First 800 relatively "easy". By the eight repeat, not so much.
If it's beyond 70% max heart rate, you are likely going anaerobic, muscles and heart start switch from fat to glycogen to ATP as the demand increases.
It's like a runner doing "speed work" on a track. First 800 relatively "easy". By the eight repeat, not so much.
You’re absolutely right. It surprised me the first time I wore a heart rate monitor for a near max effort deadlift. Maxed out my heart rate in a mere five reps.
On the other hand I’ve done high rep air squats and while I wasn’t wearing a monitor, it felt very much like the cardio zone.
On the other hand I’ve done high rep air squats and while I wasn’t wearing a monitor, it felt very much like the cardio zone.
I need a new heartrate monitor. I typically do about 100 reps for a given muscle group, and I think it would be good to see how my heart rate responds.
This is going to seem like an odd recommendation if you are a casual athlete but to save you time/money/satisfaction I strongly recommend a HRM strap instead of wrist optical and even more so if you can justify it, one that has self-storage and can download afterwards. Turns out monitoring via bluetooth and ANT+ has dropout at high heartrates.
I think the Wahoo ticker-x is the only one that meets all those requirements and I think it can work without a watch too. I have the garmin hrm-pro which can save/download but it needs the watch to be connected to start working which is bad design. Check DCrainmaker website for latest reviews.
I think the Wahoo ticker-x is the only one that meets all those requirements and I think it can work without a watch too. I have the garmin hrm-pro which can save/download but it needs the watch to be connected to start working which is bad design. Check DCrainmaker website for latest reviews.
I personally find that the exercise doesn't even need to be "acute". When I'm feeling mentally tired I just drink water or eat a piece of fruit and go outdoors and walk for a bit and my mental energy just comes back.
I generally split my day up to alternate between physical activity, rational/logical projects/work, and creative activity. I do think while you engage in one the others are getting at least some amount of rest.
Assuming that the article's conclusions are sound, I wonder what think/exercise schedule would maximize a developer's productivity.
(I'm not assuming that a single schedule is applicable to all circumstances or persons.)
(I'm not assuming that a single schedule is applicable to all circumstances or persons.)
I walk every day, and I get these results. I nearly always feel more energized, focused, and relaxed afterward. When I don't walk, I really notice the difference.
One of the single biggest errors I’ve had to unlearn being taught in my life is that “exercise is for the body and mainly for athletes” instead of (or perhaps along with) “exercise is also for the mind if you’re a nerd” ;)
(Naturally, the mind is part of the body, but the mental benefits are drastically under-emphasized!)
Morning exercise a few times a week (at Orangetheory, in my case) lead to fairly large productivity boosts. My head feels so much clearer and I seem to have a lot more focus on tap, and just raw motivation to get things done or what I call “mental oomph”.
(Naturally, the mind is part of the body, but the mental benefits are drastically under-emphasized!)
Morning exercise a few times a week (at Orangetheory, in my case) lead to fairly large productivity boosts. My head feels so much clearer and I seem to have a lot more focus on tap, and just raw motivation to get things done or what I call “mental oomph”.
As the Roman poet Juvenal once wrote: "Mens sana in corpore sano"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_sana_in_corpore_sano
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_sana_in_corpore_sano
Gods of the Copybook Headers. (edit: Head ings, of course)
They may be old fuddy-duddies, but damned if they aren't right more often than not. Even when we'd rather they weren't.
They may be old fuddy-duddies, but damned if they aren't right more often than not. Even when we'd rather they weren't.
One of the quickest adaptations to physical activity is that your motor neurons get better at firing and recruiting motor units. There’s evidence that these benefits spill over to the entire CNS.
This feels right. When the brain fog hits, I need to workout to clear it.
It works every time (you still feel tired, but you can concentrate).
It works every time (you still feel tired, but you can concentrate).
Would this support the idea of exercising at the end of day vs early morning ? ( if you have to choose one )
...But not from "tiredness", according to the paper!
30 min at 65-75% of individual V˙O2peak is not a joke.
V’02peak is an odd phrasing, sounds like it’s a quick approximation of VO2max. [1] For anyone with a mild aerobic base, wouldn’t 65-75% of VO2max be easy to moderate?
1: http://cpxinternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/028_B...
1: http://cpxinternational.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/028_B...
What is the exercise to do? Jumping jacks? Pushups?
I'm skeptical this can be implemented into a schedule where you do mental work for multiple hours a day.
Work 8h, go to gym, work more on hobbies at home. Fits well for me for years - physical exercise, either aerobic or anaerobic, is a great mental reset for me that's worked for years.
Is it about NIH syndrome?
Making this comment because I suffered (and recovered from) ME/CFS myself.