Eight hundred employees resign after WhiteHat Jr asks them to work from office(inc42.com)
inc42.com
Eight hundred employees resign after WhiteHat Jr asks them to work from office
https://inc42.com/buzz/exclusive-over-800-whitehat-jr-employees-resign-as-edtech-giant-asks-to-report-to-office/
136 comments
>> I don't understand why these companies need to exist when we have other free and amazing resources online like Khan Academy which teach all topics to all ages of people.
Cram school culture, FOMO and dreams of children making it big.
These apps are just a part of the larger culture where IIT cram school tuitions are supposed to begin at age 11. Every one in India likes to diss on Engineering education, but it continues to remain the most predictable way of making an upper middle class living.
Parent obviously spend good money on education for this reason.
Cram school culture, FOMO and dreams of children making it big.
These apps are just a part of the larger culture where IIT cram school tuitions are supposed to begin at age 11. Every one in India likes to diss on Engineering education, but it continues to remain the most predictable way of making an upper middle class living.
Parent obviously spend good money on education for this reason.
Unfortunately, that's the reality of many industries and countless organizations.
I too wish this didn't exist. But I'm learning to replace wishful thinking with something better.
In this case, I think reality is providing a valuable learning opportunity to those parents: that they should verify everything before taking as truth, and only believe as an anticipation of goodwill only during the period necessary for verification (to avoid ending up pessimistic or cynic, for instance).
While there are still people that didn't learn and apply these lessons well, there will always be Byju's out there...
I too wish this didn't exist. But I'm learning to replace wishful thinking with something better.
In this case, I think reality is providing a valuable learning opportunity to those parents: that they should verify everything before taking as truth, and only believe as an anticipation of goodwill only during the period necessary for verification (to avoid ending up pessimistic or cynic, for instance).
While there are still people that didn't learn and apply these lessons well, there will always be Byju's out there...
'I think reality is providing a valuable learning'
What they need to be provided is a good layer, and a clampdown on corporate fraud.
What they need to be provided is a good layer, and a clampdown on corporate fraud.
Yes, abuse should not be tolerated as a learning experience.
There isn't much hope in breaking the wheels of the megacorp and government alliances, but at the very least we can share our criticism and condemn these behaviors.
There isn't much hope in breaking the wheels of the megacorp and government alliances, but at the very least we can share our criticism and condemn these behaviors.
That's certainly helpful to remediate, but not to prevent these things from repeating in the future.
Agree with everything you said. These asshats should crash and burn in just world.
Yuck.
For some background history whitehat jr has been accused of running misleading ads and shady marketing and also sueuing individuals for millions of dollars to keep their mouth shut.
To get more context please google "pradeep poonia whitehat" and you will get all the gory details, whatsapp chats, etc.
To get more context please google "pradeep poonia whitehat" and you will get all the gory details, whatsapp chats, etc.
Yes, there's far more to this story. This isn't your typical story of employees going remote for COVID and then being asked to return. There's a lot more wrapped up in this, including failure to adjust salaries and employees who can't relocate on short notice:
> One of the employees who resigned told the website that a month’s time was not enough for relocation. “Some have kids, some have aged and sick parents, while others have other responsibilities. It is not right to call back employees in such a short period of time,” the former WhiteHat Jr employee said.
> Another employee said salaries also factored in the decision to not return to the office. At the time of hiring, employees were told about their job location – WhiteHat Jr has offices in Gurugram, Mumbai and Bengaluru. However, after working from home for two years, employees believed that their salaries should be revised to reflect the cost of living in expensive cities.
This looks like more of an engineered layoff from a company that is already in a death spiral:
> “This was a well-planned and managed layoff that WhiteHat Jr did,” a former employee remarked.
> One of the employees who resigned told the website that a month’s time was not enough for relocation. “Some have kids, some have aged and sick parents, while others have other responsibilities. It is not right to call back employees in such a short period of time,” the former WhiteHat Jr employee said.
> Another employee said salaries also factored in the decision to not return to the office. At the time of hiring, employees were told about their job location – WhiteHat Jr has offices in Gurugram, Mumbai and Bengaluru. However, after working from home for two years, employees believed that their salaries should be revised to reflect the cost of living in expensive cities.
This looks like more of an engineered layoff from a company that is already in a death spiral:
> “This was a well-planned and managed layoff that WhiteHat Jr did,” a former employee remarked.
Haven't heard from Pradeep in a while. Do you know how all those cases progressed?
Last news I saw was that Whitehat Jr withdrew their case
Uhm.... if you call yourself "whitehat jr"... I auto dont trust you.
My brain keeps parsing that as a mashup of "Whitecastle" and "Carls, Jr."
Ah the ever elusive causation shell game.
“This was a well-planned and managed layoff that WhiteHat Jr did,” a former employee remarked.
Yep. One month to relocate cities? This isn't merely "drive 15 minutes to the office".
Note that, if they lay you off, you're entitled to unemployment, etc. It's probably better to refuse to resign and also refuse to move. That way, you get whatever severance benefits you are due.
If you are at the company, or just resigned because of this unreasonable policy change, I highly suggest you use your local bar association's referral service (or some other means) to schedule an inexpensive consult with a labor attorney.
If you are at the company, or just resigned because of this unreasonable policy change, I highly suggest you use your local bar association's referral service (or some other means) to schedule an inexpensive consult with a labor attorney.
[Assuming US laws] In most states you can terminate employment due to "Changing of Terms and Conditions" and still get Unemployment. Of Course check your local state laws, but their is a prevailing myth that if you voluntarily quit you always forfeit unemployment, that is not true, it is harder for sure, however in a situation like this chances are you would win unemployment hearing
This would be then termination with cause. Employment agreements generally state that employees can be required to work from any location as required by the employer. Refusal is then called breach of contract and hence termination without cause.
There are limits. If you sign up for a desk job in LA with no mention of travel and then get shuffled every day to Chicago, NYC, ... then it's unlikely the courts would agree that it was a termination with cause if the employee refused to cooperate. Here the courts might find that a month is insufficient notice, they might find that since the job started in the office there was always a reasonable expectation that the employees would have to return to the office, there might be jurisdictional questions, and who knows what else. Without a lot more details I'd hesitate to speculate as to the legal outcome in this case.
As with all things, depends on where you live.
IANAL - but for example, in canada, forcing employees to move,or even significantly increase their commute, is considered the same as unilaterally changing the employees pay, and cant be done without the employees consent.
IANAL - but for example, in canada, forcing employees to move,or even significantly increase their commute, is considered the same as unilaterally changing the employees pay, and cant be done without the employees consent.
All my contracts have stated where the workplace is. Not the specific address, but on a city / region level. Then one part can't just change that.
According to the article they only have offices in India. I don't think welfare is that great there anyway. Nor worker protection laws.
> from any location as required by the employer.
No, we dont want to fire you, but since you decline to work from any of the proposed location in Somalia, North Korea, and the North Pole...
No, we dont want to fire you, but since you decline to work from any of the proposed location in Somalia, North Korea, and the North Pole...
Termination without cause is essentially a layoff, and eligible for unemployment.
This is in India. Do they have the same unemployment laws in India?
Employment of factory workers is regulated. Many states have explicit carve outs for IT and biotech industries.
Would refusing to move be cause for termination? That's not a layoff, perhaps, at least in the eyes of the unemployment regulations?
Yes
In Canada I think this could be a “constructive dismissal”. I believe this may be a general common-law thing, but IANAL.
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Is that true in India?
Yep, time to reconsider the resignations as constructive dismissal via the legal system.
It's an old tactic, IBM used to do it all the time: https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/ibm-tells-its...
Came across this article about Whitehat Jr, its hilarious :
https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/who-wolf-gupta-story-b...
They created a fictional character 'WOLF GUPTA' to promote their brand.
They created a fictional character 'WOLF GUPTA' to promote their brand.
If I pulled that kind of shit in my job, I'd be fired or in jail. Surely this is fraud?
Creating a fictional character is not a bad thing but what they did is the claim that it is a real story with a success story that he got a job offer from Google and package in crores(INR) all being a kid. Ran this ad nationwide on all media and mislead many parents who already have FOMO.
When asked about this kid wolf Gupta they sent a full legal team to threaten anyone who raises questions mass reporting bad reviews as a task from their employees.
And when it got out of hand they acknowledged that it was all a lie and continued misleadig parents like nothing bad in it.
When asked about this kid wolf Gupta they sent a full legal team to threaten anyone who raises questions mass reporting bad reviews as a task from their employees.
And when it got out of hand they acknowledged that it was all a lie and continued misleadig parents like nothing bad in it.
Schools are reopening this week in India. These online coaching classes saw big growth last two years but now I expect a massive subscriber churn.
Schools have been open for months in many states. And more importantly, most schools have summer vacation now.
Schools have been open for months, atleast in the Delhi region
This seems like a massively important bit of context which was missing from the article, thanks for telling us this! The article is clickbaity, given that I learned more context from your HN comment than their whole page of text.
what is the reason for churn?
Online classes from schools in India didn’t engage kids beyond 2-3 hrs. That left a big time void which were filled by these online coaching classes.
But now with physical schools starting kids will be busy for a good 6-7 hrs after which (and home work, playtime) they will hardly have time for online coaching classes. Parents would soon realize this, if not already, and discontinue subscriptions.
But now with physical schools starting kids will be busy for a good 6-7 hrs after which (and home work, playtime) they will hardly have time for online coaching classes. Parents would soon realize this, if not already, and discontinue subscriptions.
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I have not worked at an office in the past 10 years. Can't believe some people prefer to work in the old way. Okay, I get it's convenient to spend most of the day pretending that you work - coming at 9AM and going into the kitchen to make coffee and breakfast, than getting a 2-hour lunch, having a proof on your calendar that you worked for 1 hour, when the meeting ended after 20 minutes, and people stayed there talking about anythign but work. Even if people are distracted during WFH, the waste is still much less and there are less excuses compared to WFO.
Well, working in a lab is one reason. I develop technology for scientific measurement equipment. I did OK during the lockdown by moving one of my experiments to a spare room in my basement, but whether that can work or not depends a lot on what facilities are needed for a specific project.
Sure I spend some time goofing off like you describe, but my work is neither measured nor paid by the hour.
Sure I spend some time goofing off like you describe, but my work is neither measured nor paid by the hour.
I think this title/article is a bit misleading.
1/ The company was hemorrhaging money and wanted resignations (if I'm understanding "INR CR" correctly, they lost $218,102,508 USD last year??)
2/ This was India, so the stock image feels a bit misleading
3/ It happened two months ago, not recently
4/ It wasn't just coming back to the office; it was relocating people to offices who hadn't worked there before
5/ They even forced people who worked near an office go to OTHER offices in other cities
Here's the original source, which is much better (and includes details on revenue and expenses): https://inc42.com/buzz/exclusive-over-800-whitehat-jr-employ...
This isn't a case of workers preferring WFH over the office; it's a sneaky layoff.
1/ The company was hemorrhaging money and wanted resignations (if I'm understanding "INR CR" correctly, they lost $218,102,508 USD last year??)
2/ This was India, so the stock image feels a bit misleading
3/ It happened two months ago, not recently
4/ It wasn't just coming back to the office; it was relocating people to offices who hadn't worked there before
5/ They even forced people who worked near an office go to OTHER offices in other cities
Here's the original source, which is much better (and includes details on revenue and expenses): https://inc42.com/buzz/exclusive-over-800-whitehat-jr-employ...
This isn't a case of workers preferring WFH over the office; it's a sneaky layoff.
If a company is hemorrhaging money, why not eliminate some office leases and keep more people remote? Maybe that comes later after the self-layoff selection?
Remote work at scale doesn't work well in India due to general distrust.
Is America known for our deep and abiding inherent trust of our fellow countrymen? (I don’t believe we’re known for that, yet remote working works here, at least to a very large degree.)
In comparison to some other places I've been to, yes, absolutely. There is a much, much greater assumption in the US that the person you're talking to is actually being honest with you than there is in some other countries. As an example, take the "dishonest used car salesman" stock character - in many other places, that is the default expected behavior of anyone selling you anything. Like going to a bazaar; the price you get will be an absolute rip-off, and you are expected to know this and argue with the store owner. That lack of trust feeds into all levels of a society. Americans might have some high-level trust issues regarding political differences, but nothing like the bone-deep understanding that everyone outside of your family or tribe is actively and constantly trying to deceive, manipulate, and take advantage of you that people who grew up in real low-trust societies have ingrained in themselves. (exceptions might be people growing up in low-trust enclaves within the greater US society - as I understand it, this is part of the reason why some inner city communities struggle to cohere and advocate for themselves effectively, under the term "crabs in a bucket syndrome"). Stuff like the Theranos revelations or that a high percentage of programming jobs applicants can't actually program is shocking to most Americans; it's par for the course in some of the places I've lived.
I don't buy the thing about programmer applicants being unable to program. Easiest thing to screen out in the world. Fizzbuzz and that's it. I think it's mostly American companies pretending to be victims, particularly American companies that are run by people who can't program. Like tptacek saying it takes like two years to get someone out of a company who can't program, like he has to be managed into a weird office first, then like all this massaging and passive actions to like put a bubble around him, because you can't fire anybody ever.
In the government maybe, but in corporations you can get yourself fired in two seconds, not two years, two seconds. "Fuck you" "you're fired!!!" That's it. Two seconds. The whole thing is being on the knife's edge to being fired, they keep you there and move you with that knife's edge. That's the boss's point of contact with you, exactly like a mugger. They have no idea what happens if you're fired! No idea! No idea about the Turkish prison system, no idea about government assistance, no idea, they carefully protect themselves and tell people not to tell them.
Also keep in mind I was deliberately sabotaged in my curriculum, the whole standing up to torture thing I talk about if you read my comments, so if an interviewer asks where I worked in April 2009 I'm like, "There's no April 2009. Is that a reference to the Gregorian Calendar?"
So keep in mind, with my harsh words, I watched the shitshow from the cheapest seat.
In the government maybe, but in corporations you can get yourself fired in two seconds, not two years, two seconds. "Fuck you" "you're fired!!!" That's it. Two seconds. The whole thing is being on the knife's edge to being fired, they keep you there and move you with that knife's edge. That's the boss's point of contact with you, exactly like a mugger. They have no idea what happens if you're fired! No idea! No idea about the Turkish prison system, no idea about government assistance, no idea, they carefully protect themselves and tell people not to tell them.
Also keep in mind I was deliberately sabotaged in my curriculum, the whole standing up to torture thing I talk about if you read my comments, so if an interviewer asks where I worked in April 2009 I'm like, "There's no April 2009. Is that a reference to the Gregorian Calendar?"
So keep in mind, with my harsh words, I watched the shitshow from the cheapest seat.
What force do you think prevents unqualified people from applying for high-paying jobs?
I had a ten-year experienced candidate unable to write a function to sum an array of integers. Any language he wanted. Wasn’t that he didn’t consider overflow or something like that. Just couldn’t get started at all. I have no idea what he was doing for 10 years, but I gave him something easier than fizzbuzz and he blew it. If you’ve interviewed 100 applicants and never come across someone who couldn’t fizzbuzz, I think you’ve experienced well above the average.
I had a ten-year experienced candidate unable to write a function to sum an array of integers. Any language he wanted. Wasn’t that he didn’t consider overflow or something like that. Just couldn’t get started at all. I have no idea what he was doing for 10 years, but I gave him something easier than fizzbuzz and he blew it. If you’ve interviewed 100 applicants and never come across someone who couldn’t fizzbuzz, I think you’ve experienced well above the average.
Get applicants with emails like @google.com, @facebook.com, @harvard.edu, that's an easy filter. Surely you, Jim Sokoloff I believe your name is, are not trying to find a perfect deal, at the bottom of the barrel, and pay an insulting wage, right?
Can you do fizzbuzz yourself? Write that email filter yourself, there's a fizzbuzz for you right there.
Can you do fizzbuzz yourself? Write that email filter yourself, there's a fizzbuzz for you right there.
You should really expand your hiring if your filter is solely someone else's.
Like fizzbuzz?
Mate, this sounds like a bit of a rant with some missing details. Do you want to make a blogpost or something?
"Stuff like the Theranos revelations or that a high percentage of programming jobs applicants can't actually program is shocking to most Americans; it's par for the course in some of the places I've lived."
I've only been in this industry six years at your average Java Spring SCRUM shop but I also find myself shocking at the claim 'a high percentage of programming jobs applicants can't actually program', like what do we mean when this gets said?
I've only been in this industry six years at your average Java Spring SCRUM shop but I also find myself shocking at the claim 'a high percentage of programming jobs applicants can't actually program', like what do we mean when this gets said?
That they legitimately have no idea how to write a computer program.
My first job was at a company which had a poor interview process. Hire fast fire fast right?
1. One programmer spent nine month trying to implement a simple Java app that read data from a message queue, called a library, then wrote data to a message queue. There was an example program available that did the same thing but reading/writing to files. When he was fired deleted his code, then I implemented the app in one week, I had only 6 months full time experience, he claimed to have 30 years.
2. Another programmer ignores all directions and spent 6 months implementing a library that did the EXACT opposite of what the customer asked for. When he was fired we had to rewrite his entire code base because it was so convoluted and poorly written. In the post-mortem we concluded it would have been better to have just deleted his code base as well when he left. He claimed to have over 10 years experience.
3. Several programmers were hired for C programming jobs and didn’t know how to use basic memory and string functions like malloc and free.
4. One programmer was so obsessed with functional programming that he verbally abused other staff members for writing C code (this was required by management and the customer). When he was forced to write C he wrote his code as if it were lisp through massive abuse of macros. When he was fired his code had to be deleted.
5. Many programmers required large amounts of help with simple tasks. Operating on a Linux servers, using make files, etc. this was not such a problem since they came it at a Junior level, but it took massive amounts of time.
6. A programmer who could not touch type, but typed keys one at a time with only his index fingers.
7. A programmer who came to design meetings asking the same questions every week, and talking about running into the same problem every stand up. We would work with him to unblock him, then he would come back and say he had the same problem again. It was maddening and when he was fired we had to delete his code.
Just some examples (in the US btw). I’m not a huge fan of fizz buzz either, but you need some sort of test or you will get a lot of people who have done some tutorials and think they can go be a programmer now.
My first job was at a company which had a poor interview process. Hire fast fire fast right?
1. One programmer spent nine month trying to implement a simple Java app that read data from a message queue, called a library, then wrote data to a message queue. There was an example program available that did the same thing but reading/writing to files. When he was fired deleted his code, then I implemented the app in one week, I had only 6 months full time experience, he claimed to have 30 years.
2. Another programmer ignores all directions and spent 6 months implementing a library that did the EXACT opposite of what the customer asked for. When he was fired we had to rewrite his entire code base because it was so convoluted and poorly written. In the post-mortem we concluded it would have been better to have just deleted his code base as well when he left. He claimed to have over 10 years experience.
3. Several programmers were hired for C programming jobs and didn’t know how to use basic memory and string functions like malloc and free.
4. One programmer was so obsessed with functional programming that he verbally abused other staff members for writing C code (this was required by management and the customer). When he was forced to write C he wrote his code as if it were lisp through massive abuse of macros. When he was fired his code had to be deleted.
5. Many programmers required large amounts of help with simple tasks. Operating on a Linux servers, using make files, etc. this was not such a problem since they came it at a Junior level, but it took massive amounts of time.
6. A programmer who could not touch type, but typed keys one at a time with only his index fingers.
7. A programmer who came to design meetings asking the same questions every week, and talking about running into the same problem every stand up. We would work with him to unblock him, then he would come back and say he had the same problem again. It was maddening and when he was fired we had to delete his code.
Just some examples (in the US btw). I’m not a huge fan of fizz buzz either, but you need some sort of test or you will get a lot of people who have done some tutorials and think they can go be a programmer now.
> A programmer who could not touch type, but typed keys one at a time with only his index fingers.
This seems pretty arbitrary.
This seems pretty arbitrary.
It is arbitrary. But he worked really slow. And it stood out to me that someone who claimed to have been doing this for years wouldn’t have muscle memory yet. It was one of the things that made me think he had lied on his resume, but I didn’t judge him for it until he had undeniably proved that he wasn’t going to be productive.
The applicant who can’t program often (hopefully/ideally) stays an applicant for a long time and many applications. The applicant who can is more likely to be hired.
It’s no surprise that the average applicant’s skills are relatively weak.
It’s no surprise that the average applicant’s skills are relatively weak.
That is one explanation for the phenomenon, but I was actually referring to the sibling comment's note about many applicants being unable to code fizzbuzz during on-site interviews (if you haven't read it, then I encourage you to read through the blog post that first, I think, brought the issue to many people's attention; https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/).
Generally speaking (though that is changing somewhat) American's are known to be Workaolics, taking fewer vacation days, working more hours, etc etc etc.
I dont know about trust per say, but there is I think more of social resistance to co-workers who would be perceived as "not pulling their weight", which I think would contribute to work from home success here
That said I can not speak to the culture in India so it may be the same there, no idea
I dont know about trust per say, but there is I think more of social resistance to co-workers who would be perceived as "not pulling their weight", which I think would contribute to work from home success here
That said I can not speak to the culture in India so it may be the same there, no idea
I'm always suspicious of post-hoc cultural explanations, but I think that the argument would be that you don't trust other americans to not shoot you, but you generally trust them to work.
I live in a small town in a state where you don't even need a gun permit, guns of all kinds are very popular, and I have no fear of being shot. That may have only been a cheap side part to of your comment, but, dang.
On the other hand I’m in Texas and after passing the open carry we’ve seen a huge rise in gun violence related to road rage. The H‑E‑B grocery store near me had murder happen because someone ‘stole’ the parking of an angry person with a gun.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2022/04/12/us/r...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2022/04/12/us/r...
Wow, I would say the reverse insomuch as I don’t trust the majority of my fellow random Americans, without adequate oversight, to work a) hard and b) with detailed compliance to process and procedure. I absolutely trust the majority of my fellow random Americans to not shoot me, and I live in a state with constitutional concealed carry and a city where it’s not abnormal to see open carry.
This is a terrible analogy.
Yes, hence me stating that I don't actually believe in that line of explanation.
is this supposed to be funny?
I don't have any insight on the culture side of US and I will refrain from making any conclusions.
So let's take culture aside, you have to consider power imbalance between workers in both of those countries.
In India, 10 people will line up to take your job at a moment's notice regardless of the city and conditions.
Management won't begrudgingly agree to remote work if they have options and distrust workers (usually the case here).
So let's take culture aside, you have to consider power imbalance between workers in both of those countries.
In India, 10 people will line up to take your job at a moment's notice regardless of the city and conditions.
Management won't begrudgingly agree to remote work if they have options and distrust workers (usually the case here).
When compared to most western cultures other than Saxons and Scandinavians, I would say yes, very much so.
Depends on whether or not office leases or salaries are the bigger expense.
Or one could plan to cut some of both and come out of it with a leaner opex profile that keeps more human capacity.
> The company was hemorrhaging money and wanted resignations
Unrelated, it's amazing how edtech startups have been beaten by traditional coaching institutions. Not only those institutions are profitable but they are beating growth numbers consistently.
Unrelated, it's amazing how edtech startups have been beaten by traditional coaching institutions. Not only those institutions are profitable but they are beating growth numbers consistently.
I've never understood why tech people think computers are going to improve education. Education is a human activity, you cannot replace a human with a computer. At best a computer is going to be like a book v2, plus multiple choice problem sets / test. Learning from a book is hardly going to be more effective than a teacher who can adjust on the fly to the students.
> I've never understood why tech people think computers are going to improve education.
For many (not necessarily all) ed-tech startups, they don't.
They aren't looking to improve education, they are looking to leverage and scale a business. And for that, 'computers' is ideal.
For many (not necessarily all) ed-tech startups, they don't.
They aren't looking to improve education, they are looking to leverage and scale a business. And for that, 'computers' is ideal.
Apps have greatly improved my language learning, spaced repetition has been a key for learning vocabulary and it's something that computers are very good at.
Also apps like tandem have made it free, quick and easy to find someone online to practice with.
Also apps like tandem have made it free, quick and easy to find someone online to practice with.
It's the logical conclusion derived from the conceptualization of humans as programmable machines and education as their programming. After one accepts that belief, the issue merely becomes one of economy. Managing costs.
From personal experience teaching a small kid that does really well one on one learning. But with paper absolutely nothing.
One of the big benefits is of computers vs books: being able to directly give automated feedback.
Pronounce or type a word wrong, the computer instantly gives you specific feedback. If you do assignments on paper teachers checks it much further away from the point the cognitive effort has been applied. There is a much less direct feedback loop.
Especially for learning how to read a computer can give feedback whereas kids can go through texts not fully understanding, or misreading words without any correction.
Of course one on one is in some ways much more effective. But there are time constraints.
To automate certain things computer programs are most time effective. Just have to check in to make sure they are taking their work seriously.
It's also harder to pretend to be studying with a computer
One of the big benefits is of computers vs books: being able to directly give automated feedback.
Pronounce or type a word wrong, the computer instantly gives you specific feedback. If you do assignments on paper teachers checks it much further away from the point the cognitive effort has been applied. There is a much less direct feedback loop.
Especially for learning how to read a computer can give feedback whereas kids can go through texts not fully understanding, or misreading words without any correction.
Of course one on one is in some ways much more effective. But there are time constraints.
To automate certain things computer programs are most time effective. Just have to check in to make sure they are taking their work seriously.
It's also harder to pretend to be studying with a computer
With computerized education courses, kids tend to just click through the answers as quickly as possible without really engaging with the material. Only a human teacher can tell whether the student is really engaged and learning.
Computerized training only really works for older students who are already highly motivated to learn a particular skill.
Computerized training only really works for older students who are already highly motivated to learn a particular skill.
Same with on paper.
And true I don't like multiple choice for that reason.
However in my experience it's much easier to check from a distance if they are messing around or not with a computer. And computer won't easily allow them to continue with wrong answers. (Certain programs are better then others)
One on one is always better, but there is not room for a lot of one one time in most schools
And true I don't like multiple choice for that reason.
However in my experience it's much easier to check from a distance if they are messing around or not with a computer. And computer won't easily allow them to continue with wrong answers. (Certain programs are better then others)
One on one is always better, but there is not room for a lot of one one time in most schools
Absolutely disagree.
Kids do that when they're forced to it. Anybody would do that.
Kids who are interested in what they're learning about won't do that.
Perhaps we shouldn't expect people (kids or not) to do so much irrelevant stuff.
Kids do that when they're forced to it. Anybody would do that.
Kids who are interested in what they're learning about won't do that.
Perhaps we shouldn't expect people (kids or not) to do so much irrelevant stuff.
The problem with computers is that they can point you at a mistake, but they cannot understand why you made this mistake and explain the part that you didn't know.
> At best a computer is going to be like a book v2
Yes, I agree, but I think you underestimate just how much power v2 can bring to books.
Computers make interactive media relatively easy to create. Interactivity provides a literal new dimension to the information you can convey that makes some things easier and faster to understand than if you were to read them from a book. As a student, you can be handed a live simulation and experiment with it to "grow" an intuition for the subject matter. Nicky Case's explainers are a prime example of this in action.
Yes, I agree, but I think you underestimate just how much power v2 can bring to books.
Computers make interactive media relatively easy to create. Interactivity provides a literal new dimension to the information you can convey that makes some things easier and faster to understand than if you were to read them from a book. As a student, you can be handed a live simulation and experiment with it to "grow" an intuition for the subject matter. Nicky Case's explainers are a prime example of this in action.
it would appear that you've forgotten the key power of a human in education - adaptability.
A teacher is able to see where a student is making a mistake, why that mistake is happening and what else might be going wrong. A computer is a supplement to that. It will never be a replacement.
A teacher is able to see where a student is making a mistake, why that mistake is happening and what else might be going wrong. A computer is a supplement to that. It will never be a replacement.
Where have you seen a teacher adapt to a student? I have seen them screaming when kids don't do what the teacher expects (but doesn't properly explain). A computer would never do that.
why are you assuming that all teachers are terrible?
In over 15 years of receiving an education, i met several great teachers and a few excellent ones.
In over 15 years of receiving an education, i met several great teachers and a few excellent ones.
Because I've never seen a good one, and even if they exist, there's no guarantee that a particular child will have a good teacher. Half of them are below average, and we both know how incredibly bad is the average.
When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
If you ask techies to describe education, it consists of memorizing trivia. And that fits perfectly well into computerized education.
It doesn't help that so many school systems do in fact look at it that way. That's why we've gotten more and more standardized testing. They want to know they're getting value for money, so they define value in ways they can measure cheaply.
If you ask techies to describe education, it consists of memorizing trivia. And that fits perfectly well into computerized education.
It doesn't help that so many school systems do in fact look at it that way. That's why we've gotten more and more standardized testing. They want to know they're getting value for money, so they define value in ways they can measure cheaply.
As someone who is approaching mid 40s and has gone back to college, I would say I disagree with you.
Ed tech is a problem yes, because you get only 1 kind of content on a single platform. But in general, computers have given me access to so much more than a singular human interaction could.
I'll use an example (real one). "Linear Algebra" search right here on HN yields a few results and I especially liked the animated web book. Gilbert Strang's videos are well... Gilbert Strang's videos. 3blue1brown throws a fantastic perspective. Pavel Grinfeld is brilliant too.
I have so many options now, which didn't exist in 1995. And each of them is so different and great in its own way.
Ed tech is a problem yes, because you get only 1 kind of content on a single platform. But in general, computers have given me access to so much more than a singular human interaction could.
I'll use an example (real one). "Linear Algebra" search right here on HN yields a few results and I especially liked the animated web book. Gilbert Strang's videos are well... Gilbert Strang's videos. 3blue1brown throws a fantastic perspective. Pavel Grinfeld is brilliant too.
I have so many options now, which didn't exist in 1995. And each of them is so different and great in its own way.
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Seems like a classic example of fly-by-night companies barely staying afloat on the highly dubious claims they make about their products or services. They don't value their customers. They say they do, but they just want their money.
This is likely a general layoff. Edtech bubble in India has bursted. Many edtech are going through huge layoffs.
If education can work online, why not the makers of online education? Sounds like a company that doesn't believe in their own product.
They hired remote workers regardless of location and decided to give everyone a month to starting working from an office?
Can someone enlighten me? Why would they resign instead forcing the employer to fire them? Like by not going to work or just doing a shitty job.
If you quit, you're giving up on severance or unemployment insurance benefits.
If you quit, you're giving up on severance or unemployment insurance benefits.
I can't speak for the company in question but corporate culture can be very toxic here. They might have stopped remiting salary or threatened some other action if they do not resign themselves.
What action can they threaten that's worse than just firing the employees?
They can refuse to give what is called a "relieving letter". That's a letter to future employers telling that this person left on good terms and his/her experience is genuine. It's a bloody effective weapon unfortunately :(
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It's mentioned above, no?
Holding salary as hostage until they move or resign.
The other possible outcomes are not providing experience letters, acknowledging employee worked, badmouthing, and harassing your next co-workers.
Also, many big companies here do contracts with clauses that charges a service fee and take salary or bonus back if the worker doesn't work there for at least 2 years.
If you leave soon, you might end up with negative pay.
There are lots of potential ways to force this.
Holding salary as hostage until they move or resign.
The other possible outcomes are not providing experience letters, acknowledging employee worked, badmouthing, and harassing your next co-workers.
Also, many big companies here do contracts with clauses that charges a service fee and take salary or bonus back if the worker doesn't work there for at least 2 years.
If you leave soon, you might end up with negative pay.
There are lots of potential ways to force this.
but of course, how else are they going to do a layoff on an extremely short notice without all the legalese and laws of layoff.
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I think in the future, forced working from the office will be considered barbaric, and a direct form of control over the employees life. Similar to feudalism, peasants, or other patterns of worker owner relationships, forced office work for a middling wage simply isn't worth it.
It is already barbaric today.
A waste of time and resources. Fuel, road infrastructure, vehicles, parking space. All for what? so that people can waste their productivity in an open plan office, which is objectively the most distracting type of office plan ever devised, even worse than its predecessor, cubicles.
And when it's flu season, prepare to bring the flu home and make your entire family sick, because seeing people face to face from a close distance, including their nostrils and mouth from where pathogens come out, is a fantastic idea during a flu season. In fact, it is such a great idea, that we should do an all-hands meeting and bring all employees into the same space, all next to each other, so that we can maximize the odds of the flu spreading from person to person.
It is also great for companies, because helping people succeed based on superficial traits like their appearance or voice parameters instead of their productivity is definitively in the best interest of a company. That definitively helps companies succeed considering the customer doesn't care about how your employees look.
A waste of time and resources. Fuel, road infrastructure, vehicles, parking space. All for what? so that people can waste their productivity in an open plan office, which is objectively the most distracting type of office plan ever devised, even worse than its predecessor, cubicles.
And when it's flu season, prepare to bring the flu home and make your entire family sick, because seeing people face to face from a close distance, including their nostrils and mouth from where pathogens come out, is a fantastic idea during a flu season. In fact, it is such a great idea, that we should do an all-hands meeting and bring all employees into the same space, all next to each other, so that we can maximize the odds of the flu spreading from person to person.
It is also great for companies, because helping people succeed based on superficial traits like their appearance or voice parameters instead of their productivity is definitively in the best interest of a company. That definitively helps companies succeed considering the customer doesn't care about how your employees look.
The next step is obviously employer-provided XR systems that allow control regardless of your physical location. Just think of the potential for analytics based on things like gaze metrics!
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Is this going to impact operations?
> As the Covid situation has improved
LOL, sure.
LOL, sure.
White hat is actually grey.
You will never see an "Office Space" type movie for remote workers.
I would not be so sure. Companies go great lengths to control remote workers and protect their information, so it's probably only a matter of time when working from VR will be required at least from some of them. And then it's Office Space v2.
I’ve been performing gangland style murders of my own printers for decades.
Ha, I showed that scene just yesterday to my Epson that announced it wasn’t going to print anymore.
Hopefully it took the hint and is thinking very hard about the consequences of its refusal to work properly.
Hopefully it took the hint and is thinking very hard about the consequences of its refusal to work properly.
When I was but a young student, I smashed my printer with a sledgehammer and recorded it. This was before I had seen Office Space, I was just tired of its shit.
Damn it feels good to be a gangsta
I guess there was the Mythic Quest Quarantine episode.
I know this has nothing to do with the story, but I cannot get over how close this company name is to Weenie Hut Junior.
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Meta and Disney invested a lot of money into these companies and they use it to bully anyone who tries to bring these issues up by shutting down their YouTube channels and filing defamation law suits [1,2]. The entire online education industry is unregulated and resort to shitty antics to extort money. I don't understand why these companies need to exist when we have other free and amazing resources online like Khan Academy which teach all topics to all ages of people.
[1] https://thepost.co.in/news/633/whitehat-jr-lawsuit-pradeep-p...
[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/india/search?q=pradeep+poonia&restr...