Amazon Ring cameras used in nationwide ‘swatting’ spree, US Justice Dept. says(bloomberg.com)
bloomberg.com
Amazon Ring cameras used in nationwide ‘swatting’ spree, US Justice Dept. says
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-19/two-charged-with-using-amazon-ring-cameras-in-nationwide-swatting-spree
274 comments
https://archive.ph/pMxnz
https://twitter.com/ppathole/status/1116670170980859905
Tech enthusiasts: My entire house is smart.
Tech workers: The only piece of technology in my house is a printer and I keep a gun next to it so I can shoot it if it makes a noise I don't recognize.
Careful about that printer: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2011/11/hp-pr...
The version I've seen specifies that the printer is from 2004:
> Tech Enthusiasts: Everything in my house is wired to the Internet of Things! I control it all from my smartphone! My smart-house is bluetooth enabled and I can give it voice commands via alexa! I love the future!
> Programmers / Engineers: The most recent piece of technology I own is a printer from 2004 and I keep a loaded gun ready to shoot it if it ever makes an unexpected noise.
> Security technicians: takes a deep swig of whiskey I wish I had been born in the neolithic.
No idea where the original version came from, but here's one from ~1.5 years prior to @PPathole's tweet:
https://notcaycepollard.tumblr.com/post/167952829352/tech-en...
> Tech Enthusiasts: Everything in my house is wired to the Internet of Things! I control it all from my smartphone! My smart-house is bluetooth enabled and I can give it voice commands via alexa! I love the future!
> Programmers / Engineers: The most recent piece of technology I own is a printer from 2004 and I keep a loaded gun ready to shoot it if it ever makes an unexpected noise.
> Security technicians: takes a deep swig of whiskey I wish I had been born in the neolithic.
No idea where the original version came from, but here's one from ~1.5 years prior to @PPathole's tweet:
https://notcaycepollard.tumblr.com/post/167952829352/tech-en...
The question is: whether it would actually trigger the "lp%d on fire" error message?
https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/stable/linux...
https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/stable/linux...
Obviously the answer is to buy a smart fire extinguisher, so you can remotely put out the flames from your hacked smart printer.
Until someone hacks the fire extinguisher and makes it spray chemicals at you. Then you'll need to add a smart fire extinguisher extinguisher.
Until someone hacks the fire extinguisher and makes it spray chemicals at you. Then you'll need to add a smart fire extinguisher extinguisher.
There was apparently a recurrent Wikipedia hoax based on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_detector_detector
where someone asserted that there was a radar detector detector detector (so that you could tell if authorities were positioned to detect your use of a radar detector).
Some versions of this hoax are described in
https://rationalconspiracy.com/2016/06/02/radar-detector-det...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_detector_detector
where someone asserted that there was a radar detector detector detector (so that you could tell if authorities were positioned to detect your use of a radar detector).
Some versions of this hoax are described in
https://rationalconspiracy.com/2016/06/02/radar-detector-det...
I mean there's no reason you couldn't build a radar detector detector detector, using the exact same principle a radar detector detector works, just having it detect the heterodyne frequency of the radar detector detector.
we need to go deeper... cat and mouse game running through multiverse
I don't know, I have been a professional software developer for 15 years, and my whole house is smart. The trade offs are worth it to me.
Same here. This joke/meme is cute but it isn't really true, lots of tech people have smart devices.
Some tech enthusiasts just aren't old enough yet to become tech people :-)
I still have no idea why anyone would want automated light switches. Unless they are bedridden.
The conventional light switches never fail. The dimmer switches go out every 5 years or so, and I eventually get fed up and just replace them with a conventional switch.
I've had programmable thermostats, but the user interfaces on them are so terrible I eventually replace them with one with a simple dial and thermostat.
The conventional light switches never fail. The dimmer switches go out every 5 years or so, and I eventually get fed up and just replace them with a conventional switch.
I've had programmable thermostats, but the user interfaces on them are so terrible I eventually replace them with one with a simple dial and thermostat.
If I wake up early with my 3m old son and hit the livingroom switch, various christmas lights turn on.
Before that I will have turned on a dim salt lamp in our bedroom with a small butten I have near the bed, as to not wake my gf. I turn it off with the wall switch while leaving the room.
The light in the hallway is dim because it is still early. Since he didn't poop I only need a dim light in the changing area operated by my foot.
Various lights in the house turn on automatically by movement or door opening. Lights near the front door go on dinly just before subset and get brighter with movement. The wall switch in the kitchen turns on multiple lights including cabinet downlighting.
These things and more, and the fact I can change them relatively easily and wihtout rewiring, I find convenient and that brings me value.
You don't have to understand though, we both can like different things.
Before that I will have turned on a dim salt lamp in our bedroom with a small butten I have near the bed, as to not wake my gf. I turn it off with the wall switch while leaving the room.
The light in the hallway is dim because it is still early. Since he didn't poop I only need a dim light in the changing area operated by my foot.
Various lights in the house turn on automatically by movement or door opening. Lights near the front door go on dinly just before subset and get brighter with movement. The wall switch in the kitchen turns on multiple lights including cabinet downlighting.
These things and more, and the fact I can change them relatively easily and wihtout rewiring, I find convenient and that brings me value.
You don't have to understand though, we both can like different things.
That is true for some switches made by fly-by-night Silicon Valley companies. Especially the ones that need a Wifi connection to work.
The ones I use are made by Lutron, who has a long history of making conventional light switches. They act just like normal switches, and I could sell my house without the home automation system, and it would be perfectly functional for the new owner.
Having carefully designs home automation brings lots of little conveniences. When I walk into a room when it is dark, the light automatically turns on. When it becomes cloudy during the day, lights in the darker living areas turn on. When I go to bed, I press one button, and all the lights in the house turn off, and the motion sensors are disabled. Another button press in the morning re-enables the sensors and turns on the lights in all the "morning activity" areas of the house.
Bottom line is that I seldom have to press a light switch. I always automagically have light when and where I need it.
The ones I use are made by Lutron, who has a long history of making conventional light switches. They act just like normal switches, and I could sell my house without the home automation system, and it would be perfectly functional for the new owner.
Having carefully designs home automation brings lots of little conveniences. When I walk into a room when it is dark, the light automatically turns on. When it becomes cloudy during the day, lights in the darker living areas turn on. When I go to bed, I press one button, and all the lights in the house turn off, and the motion sensors are disabled. Another button press in the morning re-enables the sensors and turns on the lights in all the "morning activity" areas of the house.
Bottom line is that I seldom have to press a light switch. I always automagically have light when and where I need it.
> Bottom line is that I seldom have to press a light switch
I just don't think of it as a burden. I don't think about it at all. My hand goes up to the switch.
I know I don't think about it, because when the power goes out my hand still automatically turns the switch on, even when I'm carrying a lamp. There's a second where I blink wonderering why the light didn't go on.
I have some 1-watt LED lights plugged in and on all the time, so I don't fall down the stairs. I figure the 1 watt is less than the power draw of motion detectors, etc.
I just don't think of it as a burden. I don't think about it at all. My hand goes up to the switch.
I know I don't think about it, because when the power goes out my hand still automatically turns the switch on, even when I'm carrying a lamp. There's a second where I blink wonderering why the light didn't go on.
I have some 1-watt LED lights plugged in and on all the time, so I don't fall down the stairs. I figure the 1 watt is less than the power draw of motion detectors, etc.
Yeah, pressing a light switch is a huge strain on the body and mind ;-)
Lolz aside, as an engineer, the main turnoff for me is not the privacy, though that is a concern, but the introduction of complexity. I like my house like I like my software: clean and minimalistic :)
Lolz aside, as an engineer, the main turnoff for me is not the privacy, though that is a concern, but the introduction of complexity. I like my house like I like my software: clean and minimalistic :)
Motion on, auto off, turn on at dusk, turn off at midnight, turn off when I’m not home. Turn on when I come home. battery-less switches that can go anywhere and trigger anything.
Smart lights and outlets are the only smart thing in my home and they really are great imho
It was sorta a pain to set up, over half a decade ago, now it’s small tweaks now and then but otherwise just works.
Smart lights and outlets are the only smart thing in my home and they really are great imho
It was sorta a pain to set up, over half a decade ago, now it’s small tweaks now and then but otherwise just works.
And then we graciously disregarded the trouble of 'obsolete' hardware that is not supported anymore by the 'brand new improved and with most super revolutionary functionality in the universe' version of the software.
I am fed up with phone apps already because of that, nearly no month or several week goes by without one warning me: UPDATE! NOW!
And then when you update its behaviour is altered, many times functionalities you liked are gone. The whole thing is more like a nuisance than genuine help.
Exposing myself potentially to the same kind of problems concerning my whole home?! No thank you!
(recently, after long deliberation and consultation with my keen wife, I gave up the idea of robotic vacums. some are excluded due to shameless price or physical configuration, but many due to the inability to operate without a phone app. i will do my vacuuming without connecting to home wifi, thanks)
I am fed up with phone apps already because of that, nearly no month or several week goes by without one warning me: UPDATE! NOW!
And then when you update its behaviour is altered, many times functionalities you liked are gone. The whole thing is more like a nuisance than genuine help.
Exposing myself potentially to the same kind of problems concerning my whole home?! No thank you!
(recently, after long deliberation and consultation with my keen wife, I gave up the idea of robotic vacums. some are excluded due to shameless price or physical configuration, but many due to the inability to operate without a phone app. i will do my vacuuming without connecting to home wifi, thanks)
The twitter app on my iphone tried to upgrade itself, and failed because the upgrade won't work on an older iphone. Trying to download the previous version does not work. Do I want to spend a grand upgrading the phone just to use twitter? Nah.
I have similar fundamental issues with a robotic vacuum but a robotic vacuum has been a game changer for my dysfunctional household where no one actually vacuumed regularly.
It doesn't matter if it's the best vacuum or the most secure vacuum or even the cheapest, for us it matters if it actually gets used and thus the floors are cleaner.
Same reason I've come to like our stick vacuum: we're far more likely to use it than other vacuums that are technically better but are heavier/louder/more difficult to store/etc.
It doesn't matter if it's the best vacuum or the most secure vacuum or even the cheapest, for us it matters if it actually gets used and thus the floors are cleaner.
Same reason I've come to like our stick vacuum: we're far more likely to use it than other vacuums that are technically better but are heavier/louder/more difficult to store/etc.
Yeah, that option is on my mind too!
Regarding the robot vacuum you can have the best of both worlds if you get a compatible device and flash an open-source firmware, like Valetudo [1]. You can operate the device by pressing a button, and you can configure it from a locally-hosted webapp (it doesn't need internet access).
[1] https://github.com/rand256/valetudo
[1] https://github.com/rand256/valetudo
Thanks for the tip!
Light switches are just not currently one of the better use cases(Although RGB bulbs are fantastic for special effects and decorations).
Smarthomes are currently better at monitoring than they are at control, there's just not that much that needs real automation
Smarthomes are currently better at monitoring than they are at control, there's just not that much that needs real automation
I prefer waking up to a light turning on than a noisy alarm; but also like having a normal switch the rest of the day.
I have also used them to relocate a switch to a more useful place for much cheaper/in a rental. (Automatic switch in the out of reach or inconvenient location, battery switch in reach of where I want it).
I have also used them to relocate a switch to a more useful place for much cheaper/in a rental. (Automatic switch in the out of reach or inconvenient location, battery switch in reach of where I want it).
> I still have no idea why anyone would want automated light switches.
Security.
Security.
The security part is a solved problem, unless you think a burglar is obsessed with your house in particular; they've made outlet timers for decades.
I looked into that... Outlet timers are now more expensive than a smart power plug ($10 vs $5). I went the smart route.
automated light switches == outlet timers for decades
> unless you think a burglar is obsessed with your house in particular
IMO burglars are obsessed with an easy score - "Lights on looks like someone is home - fuck it I will rob the empty looking house up the street"
> unless you think a burglar is obsessed with your house in particular
IMO burglars are obsessed with an easy score - "Lights on looks like someone is home - fuck it I will rob the empty looking house up the street"
Well yes, but my point was that you don't need a Smart House in order to do the job of a $10 hardware store device.
My lights coming on and going off at set times of day or the porch light coming on in response to motion then going off again when nobody is there is "Smart".
That's actually smart, without my mocking scare-quotes. I think we very much agree, but I'm responding in the context of one parent higher comment than you are.
[deleted]
That tweet you linked was plagiarised from: https://twitter.com/rururunit/status/1116412605025935362
(I've been on twitter too long and it's given me a sixth sense for detecting clout chasers who just repost others' jokes or make incredibly low-effort tweets.)
(I've been on twitter too long and it's given me a sixth sense for detecting clout chasers who just repost others' jokes or make incredibly low-effort tweets.)
And that one plagiarized from this post one year before...?
https://michaelblume.tumblr.com/post/169525456166/tech-enthu...
Oh wait..maybe this one copied it from this other one in 2017?
https://notcaycepollard.tumblr.com/post/167952829352/tech-en...
We need a "git blame" for the web? :-)
https://michaelblume.tumblr.com/post/169525456166/tech-enthu...
Oh wait..maybe this one copied it from this other one in 2017?
https://notcaycepollard.tumblr.com/post/167952829352/tech-en...
We need a "git blame" for the web? :-)
That joke is actually pretty old. In fact the link you posted says that it's not his joke. I don't really know where it came from, but it's certainly not from that guy.
In a similar vein: https://xkcd.com/2030/
Replace this with no cloud device and I am fine with that. I have ALOT of "smart devices". None of them are connected to the cloud. If I want to control my house, I connect to it via VPN. If my house wants to contact me, it uses pushover.
Not sure if I will still do this when I am "old" but I might ;).
Tech worker here: For real, just use a good password manager with random passwords unique per account. This whole smart vs dumb is moot, tech workers aren't even part of the conversation because we don't get our Yahoo! email accounts hacked.
Also tech worker here: I don't trust any of the smart home vendors to secure either the devices or their cloud services well enough to protect me from someone being able to reach into my home and do stuff.
These days I only buy local-network-only devices (mostly Z-Wave) that I connect to a RaspberryPi-based hub, running software I control, with a remote-access component that I control (and secure) as well. At least if someone gets into my smart devices from the outside, I have no one to blame but myself.
Unfortunately, this sort of setup is just complicated enough to set up and manage that it's beyond most non-technical (or even moderately-technical) people. I really wish it was easier and more accessible.
These days I only buy local-network-only devices (mostly Z-Wave) that I connect to a RaspberryPi-based hub, running software I control, with a remote-access component that I control (and secure) as well. At least if someone gets into my smart devices from the outside, I have no one to blame but myself.
Unfortunately, this sort of setup is just complicated enough to set up and manage that it's beyond most non-technical (or even moderately-technical) people. I really wish it was easier and more accessible.
Actually, you're right I use some exterior smart home things but not any interior cloud based connected devices... except for Google Nest.
As a sysadmin of many decades, I have not owned a printer in 15 years, and no self respecting tech worker I know would ever have one of them in their home.
I do have an enterprise grade network, next gen firewall, a homelab, and a host of vlans with home automation segmented off to a dedicated network with zero internet access
I do have an enterprise grade network, next gen firewall, a homelab, and a host of vlans with home automation segmented off to a dedicated network with zero internet access
Brother used to have this HL2030 which worked forever and was dirt cheap. I'd keep one if you could still buy them and if I wasn't travelling them. Doesn't require a host of vlans either.
"no self respecting tech worker". But yeah, have fun with your enterprise grade network. Hyperbole much?
"no self respecting tech worker". But yeah, have fun with your enterprise grade network. Hyperbole much?
It is not hyperbolic, it is retired enterprise equipment I got for a very good price
and yes I have great fun with it.
and yes I have great fun with it.
But you're screwed if you need to print something :(
Like what? Everyone should be paperless these days. What exactly do you still need to print?
Shipping labels. Print & play board/card games. Photographs and other art for decorating physical space. Proxy/playtest cards for trading card games. Sewing & craft patterns. Table tents for events. Flyers & brochures for local clubs. Packing slips for items sold online. Study materials for use in proctored open-book tests.
I use a Bluetooth pocket size printer for shipping labels, but I unfortunately couldn't do without my color inkjet, even though I only use it a few times a year.
I'm really hoping they come out with some kind of A4 size color thermal printer for all these one off use cases.
It's just paper with chemicals on it, it probably shouldn't be more than 20 cents a page or so if it were scaled up to be the dominant type of home printing.
I'm really hoping they come out with some kind of A4 size color thermal printer for all these one off use cases.
It's just paper with chemicals on it, it probably shouldn't be more than 20 cents a page or so if it were scaled up to be the dominant type of home printing.
Bills need to be mailed to my health insurance company if I want to be reimbursed for anything — no online uploads whatsoever, and this is for one of the major national companies that everyone knows.
You wouldn't be saying "everyone should be paperless" if everyone was paperless!
I resisted having a printer for many many many years (part because I didn't want to lose the space it'd take up, part because I don't want to deal with the toner cartels, and part just because I didn't think I needed one and it was fine to make a trip to FedEx Office when I did), but finally caved in a couple years ago. I'm surprised at how often I use it and find it useful, and how little a hassle it's turned out to be. (It is also a scanner, which I've found just as useful as the printing aspect.)
"Everyone should be paperless" -- either you live in a country with a unusually advanced, tech-minded government, or you're just completely out of touch with a normal person's needs in a place like the US.
"Everyone should be paperless" -- either you live in a country with a unusually advanced, tech-minded government, or you're just completely out of touch with a normal person's needs in a place like the US.
I live in the US, never needed to print shipping labels, never needed to print craft things (my hobby is electronics), and I have dedicated document scanners to convert the few things that still come on paper into electronic documents
Shipping labels, tickets etc. Printers suck, but I can rely on paper being suitable for its purpose. Can't say that about most alternatives (mostly phone apps).
Should be, maybe, but isn't.
To give one trivial example: if you're selling vinyl records on Discogs, you need to print the mailing address to put it on the package.
To give one trivial example: if you're selling vinyl records on Discogs, you need to print the mailing address to put it on the package.
Where I live you'd upload that to the post office and they give you a QR code you can use when you hand the package over.
(OK you probably wouldn't, but you can)
(OK you probably wouldn't, but you can)
try having a middle-schooler with homework projects to do.
It's 2022. If you don't have at least one 3D printer, I'm afraid you'll have to turn in your "self-respecting tech worker" card.
That's... a little extreme. I have a printer, and it's... fine.
> I do have an enterprise grade network, next gen firewall, a homelab, and a host of vlans with home automation segmented off to a dedicated network with zero internet access
You're not a typical tech worker.
> I do have an enterprise grade network, next gen firewall, a homelab, and a host of vlans with home automation segmented off to a dedicated network with zero internet access
You're not a typical tech worker.
Even for prosumer IT, those features aren't unusual.
Big communities exist online for it now, but a majority of the young professionals we interview have AV/IT racks at home, usually outfitted with a 3D printer or two on top. Whether it's for their home theaters, their video work, or some general labbing or engineering, they're proud of them, and it doesn't hurt to demonstrate investment into their interests and working knowledge.
It might not be typical of coders who favor high mobility or other software-only roles like application support and front end, or it might just be regional since we're in a tech and research hub surrounded by colo facilities and data centers, but it's kind of funny how naked and vulnerable people look when they come in with just a MacBook loaded with their livelihoods.
Big communities exist online for it now, but a majority of the young professionals we interview have AV/IT racks at home, usually outfitted with a 3D printer or two on top. Whether it's for their home theaters, their video work, or some general labbing or engineering, they're proud of them, and it doesn't hurt to demonstrate investment into their interests and working knowledge.
It might not be typical of coders who favor high mobility or other software-only roles like application support and front end, or it might just be regional since we're in a tech and research hub surrounded by colo facilities and data centers, but it's kind of funny how naked and vulnerable people look when they come in with just a MacBook loaded with their livelihoods.
Have a cheap laser printer wired on lan. Use it maybe every 2-3 months. Useful when you don’t have an office to print things at (I got it the year I started working at home)
I have an old hp laser jet I keep around. Occasionally I’ll hook it up to print things out of spite.
Do you think sparks in the primer can be remotely hacked? If so go with a black powder firearm.
I love my on-prem ip cams, my on-prem server that does the YOLOv5 image recognition and long-term storage, my Home Assistant that triggers alerts and sends emails to my self-hosted e-mail server and blinks all my lights, my OpenVPN-on-the-openwrt router remote access technique, my self-hosted Seafile cloud, my self-hosted CalDAV/CardDAV calendar and contacts, my mopidy/snapcast whole-home audio with local MP3s, my on-prem Jellyfin-interfaced movie library cobbled together from cheap ebay DVDs... It's a super fun hobby.
But I don't recommend any of it to anyone who doesn't want to make a serious hobby about of it.
But I don't recommend any of it to anyone who doesn't want to make a serious hobby about of it.
> But I don't recommend any of it to anyone who doesn't want to make a serious hobby about of it.
Just to expand, it’s a scale ;) It’s very easy to have a few lights, maybe some presence detection and motion sensors, and make some automation for those without venturing into hobby territory.
Just to expand, it’s a scale ;) It’s very easy to have a few lights, maybe some presence detection and motion sensors, and make some automation for those without venturing into hobby territory.
Hobby or not, it's just a shame that these sorts of setups, even the simple kinds that you describe, are too complicated to set up for most people. I wish it was more the norm that people could run things this way.
Something like Philips Hue is for those people. It’s Zigbee, but as long as you stay within their ecosystem, you get a lot of automagical features.
are you using frigate or what for the video?
I wrote my own Home Assistant custom component that's a thin wrapper around the YOLOv5 demo code. That's enough to detect objects as people, dogs, cats, etc. and trigger things in home assistant. I haven't seen frigate actually so I should check it out. Thanks.
>prompted the FBI to issue a public service announcement in late 2020 urging users of smarthome security cameras to use unique passwords
From a tech point of view, first in the medium term I first look forward to the long, long, loooonnnng awaited day when this entire class of attacks finally vanishes along with the madness of shared symmetric authentication in favor of proper public key systems. A solid decade and a half or more after smartcards and browser certs might have made it possible if things had taken a different path, the Passkey/Webauthn/FIDO2 ecosystem finally seems to be hitting the tipping point and accelerating towards critical mass. It shouldn't be necessary for anyone to remember more than one or two decent passwords/PINs, and all the actual unique random key generation should get taken care of automatically and with zero concerns about far side security. All other issues aside, it'll be great when this is just, there, and the entire concept of "default passwords" doesn't exist because to setup an account at all requires initialization with a proper key.
Second though stories like this also to me at least have helped a bit in terms of motivation/justification for taking IOT security seriously and advocating for that to colleagues and family. Like a lot of human<>tech interface stuff sometimes it feels really hard, because the deliverable is mostly "nothing happens". It's hard to prove a negative, and since for now some security efforts require extra money, time, and/or convenience tradeoffs, "is this all really worth it" does come up (and probably always will). And it can also be hard to be sure if what you've done is enough before it gets put to the test. It takes some level of stochastic belief, of "faith" even that yes, security, redundancy, decentralization and backups etc really does matter in the modern world, like it or not.
A certain degree of paranoia isn't unreasonable because a certain percentage of humanity really is out to get us. And the internet means that a tiny percentage can reach out and affect other humans far away.
From a tech point of view, first in the medium term I first look forward to the long, long, loooonnnng awaited day when this entire class of attacks finally vanishes along with the madness of shared symmetric authentication in favor of proper public key systems. A solid decade and a half or more after smartcards and browser certs might have made it possible if things had taken a different path, the Passkey/Webauthn/FIDO2 ecosystem finally seems to be hitting the tipping point and accelerating towards critical mass. It shouldn't be necessary for anyone to remember more than one or two decent passwords/PINs, and all the actual unique random key generation should get taken care of automatically and with zero concerns about far side security. All other issues aside, it'll be great when this is just, there, and the entire concept of "default passwords" doesn't exist because to setup an account at all requires initialization with a proper key.
Second though stories like this also to me at least have helped a bit in terms of motivation/justification for taking IOT security seriously and advocating for that to colleagues and family. Like a lot of human<>tech interface stuff sometimes it feels really hard, because the deliverable is mostly "nothing happens". It's hard to prove a negative, and since for now some security efforts require extra money, time, and/or convenience tradeoffs, "is this all really worth it" does come up (and probably always will). And it can also be hard to be sure if what you've done is enough before it gets put to the test. It takes some level of stochastic belief, of "faith" even that yes, security, redundancy, decentralization and backups etc really does matter in the modern world, like it or not.
A certain degree of paranoia isn't unreasonable because a certain percentage of humanity really is out to get us. And the internet means that a tiny percentage can reach out and affect other humans far away.
Thanks for writing that. I just wanted to add on to your last point and better justify it.
> A certain degree of paranoia isn't unreasonable because a certain percentage of humanity really is out to get us. And the internet means that a tiny percentage can reach out and affect other humans far away.
It is true that better systems will make rare but terrible incidents less likely, but in this case, better IoT which is easier to secure and remain self-sovereign over actually expands what people are willing to use IoT for. I imagine there are a swath of compelling avenues ready to be developed if not for the warranted hesitancy of anyone managing the security of these systems. Sure, the security now isn't terrible or problematic if used right, but when the security is robust, simple and dead-easy then the innovation up top gets uncapped.
> A certain degree of paranoia isn't unreasonable because a certain percentage of humanity really is out to get us. And the internet means that a tiny percentage can reach out and affect other humans far away.
It is true that better systems will make rare but terrible incidents less likely, but in this case, better IoT which is easier to secure and remain self-sovereign over actually expands what people are willing to use IoT for. I imagine there are a swath of compelling avenues ready to be developed if not for the warranted hesitancy of anyone managing the security of these systems. Sure, the security now isn't terrible or problematic if used right, but when the security is robust, simple and dead-easy then the innovation up top gets uncapped.
> Passkey/Webauthn/FIDO2 ecosystem finally seems to be hitting the tipping point
Where N is the number of services the key unlocks, is there a O(1) migration story yet?
Where N is the number of services the key unlocks, is there a O(1) migration story yet?
>Where N is the number of services the key unlocks, is there a O(1) migration story yet?
I'm not 100% sure I'm interpreting what you meant by this correctly, but if you're saying essentially "is there a single click button that will change all my existing accounts over" the answer is a mixture of "no of course" and "there wouldn't be one answer anyway". I mean, there are still plenty of people who don't even use password managers or have any real formal list of services at all. How would you expect there to be any automated migration there? And even with a password manager it'd still be pretty complex to manage some sort of automated switchover given the diversity of credentials and back ends (remember we're not just dealing with websites), even beyond user interaction being required for each use of many hardware key systems (which is indeed good security practice).
However I don't think that matters much having already been through a service migration ages ago with the rise of password managers themselves (and being a fairly early adopter). What happened there (or for email migrations for that matter) was a basic piecemeal/spread-it-out approach. A handful of critical services got changed right away, and then over time I switched others from using old bad passwords of a small set to being listed/managed by password manager(s) whenever I accessed them. The most frequently accessed happened the quickest, others eventually, and I made some systematic effort to get some of the long tail I cared about while just abandoning a few of the very oldest.
As it becomes more universal and everyone gets comfortable with it being battle tested, kinks worked out, rich ecosystems etc, I suspect we'll then start to see sites actively prompting/requiring people to add or switch, which will then happen naturally in the course of normal usage. I currently have almost 1000 items in my password manager (though granted not all of them are passwords) which is intimidating on the face of it, but previous experience tells me it won't actually be a big deal. A few dozen already have keys registered, and over time that will naturally increase as services/systems add support. Well before this time in 2032 I expect everything to be switched that's still actively maintained. Even IRC allowed moving to using client certs instead of passwords a while ago!
I'm not 100% sure I'm interpreting what you meant by this correctly, but if you're saying essentially "is there a single click button that will change all my existing accounts over" the answer is a mixture of "no of course" and "there wouldn't be one answer anyway". I mean, there are still plenty of people who don't even use password managers or have any real formal list of services at all. How would you expect there to be any automated migration there? And even with a password manager it'd still be pretty complex to manage some sort of automated switchover given the diversity of credentials and back ends (remember we're not just dealing with websites), even beyond user interaction being required for each use of many hardware key systems (which is indeed good security practice).
However I don't think that matters much having already been through a service migration ages ago with the rise of password managers themselves (and being a fairly early adopter). What happened there (or for email migrations for that matter) was a basic piecemeal/spread-it-out approach. A handful of critical services got changed right away, and then over time I switched others from using old bad passwords of a small set to being listed/managed by password manager(s) whenever I accessed them. The most frequently accessed happened the quickest, others eventually, and I made some systematic effort to get some of the long tail I cared about while just abandoning a few of the very oldest.
As it becomes more universal and everyone gets comfortable with it being battle tested, kinks worked out, rich ecosystems etc, I suspect we'll then start to see sites actively prompting/requiring people to add or switch, which will then happen naturally in the course of normal usage. I currently have almost 1000 items in my password manager (though granted not all of them are passwords) which is intimidating on the face of it, but previous experience tells me it won't actually be a big deal. A few dozen already have keys registered, and over time that will naturally increase as services/systems add support. Well before this time in 2032 I expect everything to be switched that's still actively maintained. Even IRC allowed moving to using client certs instead of passwords a while ago!
I hope that at some point swatting becomes a felony akin to attempted murder.
"Swatting" isn't a significant problem in other parts of the world because the result is super boring: The police knock on the door, ask some questions, and then leave.
It is only a problem in the US because the response itself is terrifying and often dangerous. Multiple people have died from "swatting" in the US[0].
"Swatting" should carry a jail term for sure. But police reform is a large component in solving the problem (and many other topical problems).
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting#Injuries_or_deaths_du...
It is only a problem in the US because the response itself is terrifying and often dangerous. Multiple people have died from "swatting" in the US[0].
"Swatting" should carry a jail term for sure. But police reform is a large component in solving the problem (and many other topical problems).
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatting#Injuries_or_deaths_du...
Do you actually think the police send a SWAT team to every single call? 99% of calls in the US would be the exact normal response you said - police knock on the door and ask questions.
The problem is the swatters know the exact type of call to make to elicit a SWAT response, usually involving someone being held hostage and in imminent danger of being killed. The police can't just assume people making that kind of call are lying, they have to respond as if it's real. It's not a problem of the police just responding to every call like that.
The problem is the swatters know the exact type of call to make to elicit a SWAT response, usually involving someone being held hostage and in imminent danger of being killed. The police can't just assume people making that kind of call are lying, they have to respond as if it's real. It's not a problem of the police just responding to every call like that.
There is a HUGE range of responses from nothing <-----> Full On military Assault shooting everything that moves.
That fact that citizens of the US have simply accepted that the latter is even remotely a proper response to even "someone being held hostage and in imminent danger of being killed" calls is both sadden, and maddening at the same time
That fact that citizens of the US have simply accepted that the latter is even remotely a proper response to even "someone being held hostage and in imminent danger of being killed" calls is both sadden, and maddening at the same time
If I was being held hostage and in imminent danger of being killed, I would prefer an armed response.
Is that an educated preference - you have looked up your chances of survival in an armed response vs a negotiated one, or an instinct?
In this hypothetical we’re beyond negotiation anyway. I think I made this clear with the clause “in imminent danger of being killed”. If hostage negotiation were possible, that would not be imminent danger of being killed.
I’m a member of a minority group that is currently experiencing an uptick in violence from the American public. I’m generally a good-natured person and tend not to make enemies. If someone is in my home with a firearm, they’re there to kill me for my perceived connections to big banking, a rational person does not commit random acts of violence like that.
You do, unintentionally, make a stellar point though. If someone in my part of America called the police because someone was trying to kill me, there will likely not be a police response once they see the last name of the target.
Hostage negotiations have a high success rate. It’s one of the very few things to be proud of about our law enforcement strategy. That being said, hostage crises generally happen in public places, and can only be successful if terrorism is not the goal. I would be deeply surprised if anyone decided to attack specifically me if their goal was not to strike fear into my community.
I’m a member of a minority group that is currently experiencing an uptick in violence from the American public. I’m generally a good-natured person and tend not to make enemies. If someone is in my home with a firearm, they’re there to kill me for my perceived connections to big banking, a rational person does not commit random acts of violence like that.
You do, unintentionally, make a stellar point though. If someone in my part of America called the police because someone was trying to kill me, there will likely not be a police response once they see the last name of the target.
Hostage negotiations have a high success rate. It’s one of the very few things to be proud of about our law enforcement strategy. That being said, hostage crises generally happen in public places, and can only be successful if terrorism is not the goal. I would be deeply surprised if anyone decided to attack specifically me if their goal was not to strike fear into my community.
“I’m a member of a minority group that is currently experiencing an uptick in violence from the American public.”
That’s horrible, it’s insane the lengths people will go to satiate their misperceived anger.
What are the violent acts being committed?
That’s horrible, it’s insane the lengths people will go to satiate their misperceived anger.
What are the violent acts being committed?
> Do you actually think the police send a SWAT team to every single call?
I don't think that's what they're implying at all, given the context is about swatting.
I don't think that's what they're implying at all, given the context is about swatting.
They are more or less stating that the problem is overzealous responses from police, rather than police receiving a fake call for which a SWAT team would be an appropriate response.
Do police in other countries simply not have the capacity to deal with people in imminent danger? Their response to getting a call claiming that there's a crazy person in the house about to murder the caller is to knock politely and ask questions? Seems more like the police in other countries suck then.
Do police in other countries simply not have the capacity to deal with people in imminent danger? Their response to getting a call claiming that there's a crazy person in the house about to murder the caller is to knock politely and ask questions? Seems more like the police in other countries suck then.
> They are more or less stating that the problem is overzealous responses from police, rather than police receiving a fake call for which a SWAT team would be an appropriate response.
The problem is that swatting is enabled precisely because the police's response isn't appropriate. The fact that swatting is so prominent, let alone an issue in the first place, is a testament to that.
Police forces demonstrably: tend to be hyper-militarized, do not train or require de-escalation, do not face legal repercussions for unlawful actions, do not keep up-to-date with various trends and technology, etc. Going in guns-blazing isn't going to save anyone if you don't validate basic information like "is this the right house?" or "did this call purporting to be from someone in our city come from a random Google Voice or Skype number?" or "have we received fake calls from this address already?"
The problem is that swatting is enabled precisely because the police's response isn't appropriate. The fact that swatting is so prominent, let alone an issue in the first place, is a testament to that.
Police forces demonstrably: tend to be hyper-militarized, do not train or require de-escalation, do not face legal repercussions for unlawful actions, do not keep up-to-date with various trends and technology, etc. Going in guns-blazing isn't going to save anyone if you don't validate basic information like "is this the right house?" or "did this call purporting to be from someone in our city come from a random Google Voice or Skype number?" or "have we received fake calls from this address already?"
I can’t think of a single kind of situation requiring a police response where surprise escalation is a key component that will help solve that situation in favor of controlled investigation and a focus on de-escalation.
> surprise escalation
surprise escalation into an unknown, unverified situation where the only basis for the use of deadly force is whether the police feel there is danger. Of course they are in fear for their lives because they are leaping into the unknown, unprepared.
We hear about the militarization of the police. I hate that term. They are playing soldier, not acting it. Having been in the military, if we had a situation and the time we would monitor a location and find out everything we could. Apparently that wasn't passed along to the police, only the guns were.
surprise escalation into an unknown, unverified situation where the only basis for the use of deadly force is whether the police feel there is danger. Of course they are in fear for their lives because they are leaping into the unknown, unprepared.
We hear about the militarization of the police. I hate that term. They are playing soldier, not acting it. Having been in the military, if we had a situation and the time we would monitor a location and find out everything we could. Apparently that wasn't passed along to the police, only the guns were.
Active shooter probably.
> Do police in other countries simply not have the capacity to deal with people in imminent danger?
Speaking from europe, we just don't have that here, at least not enough to have SWAT forces ready immediately.
I can't think of any times that it was a problem the SWAT team was not ready.
Speaking from europe, we just don't have that here, at least not enough to have SWAT forces ready immediately.
I can't think of any times that it was a problem the SWAT team was not ready.
The equivilant to SWAT in Germany is run by state police. They are used in specific situations, and most of those are never covered by the press. Statiscally, they are have on average around one deployment per day.
The big difference is, those units in Europe are a professiobally trained force and part of a professionally trained police force. And not somw wannabe commandos recruited from ill-trained police officers run by departments too small to even exist in Europe.
The big difference is, those units in Europe are a professiobally trained force and part of a professionally trained police force. And not somw wannabe commandos recruited from ill-trained police officers run by departments too small to even exist in Europe.
> The equivilant to SWAT in Germany is run by state police.
Federal.
Federal.
No?
SWAT ~= MEK, SEK
FBI HRT ~= GSG-9
SWAT ~= MEK, SEK
FBI HRT ~= GSG-9
The French also have multiple: GIGN from the Gendarmerie, GIPN and RAID from the Police National. The small police departments and sheriffs offices, the latter with elected sheriffs without any real training and qualification requirements, are an US thing.
In other parts of the world the police get a call saying there is an armed individual threatening to hurt hostages and they send a single unarmed officer to knock on the door?
You see the police normally do this thing called investigation. I know here in the US the police have forgotten what that word even means, as they just react, often emotionally, jumping wildly to conclusions based on zero evidence.
You see not every police dept in the world has removed all investigation from the responsibility of their police forces..
You see not every police dept in the world has removed all investigation from the responsibility of their police forces..
There will be a well proportioned response, but it won’t be an actual SWAT team. There’s typically one such team per five to ten million people and they won’t move for a joke call.
But more importantly, with an order of magnitude rarer killings, there is much less of a “we’re at war with the bad guys” culture. In some countries discharging a weapon brings automatic suspension for the investigation, even if nobody gets hurt. Cops simply don’t tend get trigger happy in this environment.
But more importantly, with an order of magnitude rarer killings, there is much less of a “we’re at war with the bad guys” culture. In some countries discharging a weapon brings automatic suspension for the investigation, even if nobody gets hurt. Cops simply don’t tend get trigger happy in this environment.
> with an order of magnitude rarer killings, there is much less of a “we’re at war with the bad guys” culture.
...(assuming EU) apart from hosting some of the deadliest wars in modern history.
...(assuming EU) apart from hosting some of the deadliest wars in modern history.
The comment didn’t say it was only a single officer or that they were unarmed.
That makes a huge difference, thank you.
In other parts, citizens generally don't have guns, so the idea of an "armed individual" by itself is already hard to believe.
There are estimated to be thousands of swatting incidents in a given year, so the "super boring" result evidently happens the vast majority of the time in the US too.
It's also not always that boring in other countries. Here is an example that involved more than some questions and leaving:
https://www.wjhl.com/news/local/18-year-old-arrested-in-cana...
It's also not always that boring in other countries. Here is an example that involved more than some questions and leaving:
https://www.wjhl.com/news/local/18-year-old-arrested-in-cana...
From your linked article:
> An 18-year-old has been arrested in Canada after investigators traced “swatting” calls at Volunteer High School in Hawkins County and Watauga High School in Boone, N.C. to him.
Note that the caller was in Canada, but the swatting and presumably violent police response was in North Carolina. Swatting is as American as apple pie and baseball, IMO.
> An 18-year-old has been arrested in Canada after investigators traced “swatting” calls at Volunteer High School in Hawkins County and Watauga High School in Boone, N.C. to him.
Note that the caller was in Canada, but the swatting and presumably violent police response was in North Carolina. Swatting is as American as apple pie and baseball, IMO.
"presumably violent police response"
The article appears to describe a non-violent response, so you may be wrong in this case as well as about the normal outcome.
The article appears to describe a non-violent response, so you may be wrong in this case as well as about the normal outcome.
Good to know I got only a 1 in 1000 chance of dying because Americans are so hyped up on fake maga tough guy takes that we can't agree to hold police accountable for their behavior.
That's not what I was trying to communicate.
I know I can't win the argument you'd like to start about the absolute risk and whether it's tolerable.
I don't want to!
My point was about the variance, and false confidence that two small rates are truly different. Even when one is zero, so the other is infinity percent larger.
It's not that 1/1000 is "low" or "high" in terms of human cost - that is in the eye of the beholder.
The point is that the frequency of rare events is highly sensitive to random chance, and so even with hypothetical perfect records you can't pretend different numbers are necessarily different rates.
Much less if you guess at numbers based on prejudices.
"How to Lie With Statistics" desperately needs a sequel.
I know I can't win the argument you'd like to start about the absolute risk and whether it's tolerable.
I don't want to!
My point was about the variance, and false confidence that two small rates are truly different. Even when one is zero, so the other is infinity percent larger.
It's not that 1/1000 is "low" or "high" in terms of human cost - that is in the eye of the beholder.
The point is that the frequency of rare events is highly sensitive to random chance, and so even with hypothetical perfect records you can't pretend different numbers are necessarily different rates.
Much less if you guess at numbers based on prejudices.
"How to Lie With Statistics" desperately needs a sequel.
Canada isn't that different from the US.
Outside of North America, you don't have to worry about police violence too much in developed nations.
Outside of North America, you don't have to worry about police violence too much in developed nations.
Keffals was swatted in Canada, and Canada has a far less extreme police and gun culture compared to the USA.
>> "Swatting" isn't a significant problem in other parts of the world because the result is super boring: The police knock on the door, ask some questions, and then leave.
> Keffals was swatted in Canada, and Canada has a far less extreme police and gun culture compared to the USA.
I think it's egregious that she was actually arrested for something that the police should have realized was fake, or simply been able to sort out in-person. However, her claim that she woke up with an assault rifle in her face was simply not true. In the context of American swatting, it's more like swatting-light since Canadian police actually require training and attempt to de-escalate instead of solving every problem with guns.
> Officers did not conduct what is sometimes referred to as a “dynamic entry” into Ms. Sorrenti’s residence. Rather, they knocked on the door, announced themselves as police officers, and occupants answered. Any attempt by uninvolved third parties to suggest otherwise is inaccurate and irresponsible.
https://www.londonpolice.ca/en/news/statement-from-police-ch...
> Keffals was swatted in Canada, and Canada has a far less extreme police and gun culture compared to the USA.
I think it's egregious that she was actually arrested for something that the police should have realized was fake, or simply been able to sort out in-person. However, her claim that she woke up with an assault rifle in her face was simply not true. In the context of American swatting, it's more like swatting-light since Canadian police actually require training and attempt to de-escalate instead of solving every problem with guns.
> Officers did not conduct what is sometimes referred to as a “dynamic entry” into Ms. Sorrenti’s residence. Rather, they knocked on the door, announced themselves as police officers, and occupants answered. Any attempt by uninvolved third parties to suggest otherwise is inaccurate and irresponsible.
https://www.londonpolice.ca/en/news/statement-from-police-ch...
Far-less extreme? Why? Just because they loudly profess it?
Any way you want to measure it, it is less extreme.
This is actually not true and it's just like myth propaganda propagated by Canada. The Royal mounted police are deeply murderous to native people till today. that's just a single example. in the same way that the American media blames every black man murdered by the police so does the Canadian.
That's because both countries are based on the continued enforcement of white supremacy.
That's because both countries are based on the continued enforcement of white supremacy.
'Starlight Tours' are a sordid stain in Canadian history, however, I don't see how that makes it untrue or a myth. Even if the RCMP is demonstrably bad, Ontario and Quebec have their own provincial police forces, and so do a few large municipalities.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatoon_freezing_deaths
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatoon_freezing_deaths
Is the rest of the world loaded up to the gills with weapons? There's 1.2 guns per citizen...
Well, that's because we have to protect ourselves from SWAT teams!
Indiana just enshrined that right into law.
https://theweek.com/articles/474702/indiana-law-that-lets-ci...
https://theweek.com/articles/474702/indiana-law-that-lets-ci...
Good? As a Californian who doesn't own a gun and hasn't fired one in 20 years, I'm unlikely to take advantage of that law, but I appreciate that it exists. A SWAT assault that isn't preceded by presenting a valid warrant is just a heavily-armed home invasion, and home owners absolutely should be able to respond to those. That was presumably already legal, but if "enshrining" it into law as you put it makes it pointedly obvious to the police that they can be legally shot dead if they don't follow a safe, legal procedure, great. Maybe swatting will be less of a thing then...
Edit: wow, just saw this part:
> Why did Indiana push this law? The state Supreme Court had previously ruled that citizens had no legal right to resist police officers, even in a case of unlawful entry
What a crazy ruling. I guess this law is checks and balances in action in two ways...
Edit: wow, just saw this part:
> Why did Indiana push this law? The state Supreme Court had previously ruled that citizens had no legal right to resist police officers, even in a case of unlawful entry
What a crazy ruling. I guess this law is checks and balances in action in two ways...
If you think about it in practical terms, I don’t think this is a good law. What’s going to happen if a house owner is opening fire at a heavily armed police team that is conducting an illegal raid. Is the police going to stand down and reassess the legality of their entry? Or are they going to shoot back? And what’s the likely outcome? Dead owner and dead police. Great.
Now, if you’d really want to dissuade the police from making illegal raids, make them liable for all damages, slap on penalties and put the burden of proof on them. Police entered and cannot prove it was legal? Pay fine, repair damage. At the same time lower the bar for personal liability for the officers: Can’t demonstrate that they did at least the basic due diligence? Pay out of their own pocket.
Now, if you’d really want to dissuade the police from making illegal raids, make them liable for all damages, slap on penalties and put the burden of proof on them. Police entered and cannot prove it was legal? Pay fine, repair damage. At the same time lower the bar for personal liability for the officers: Can’t demonstrate that they did at least the basic due diligence? Pay out of their own pocket.
> Now, if you’d really want to dissuade the police from making illegal raids...
Why not both?
I don't think it's necessarily wise for a homeowner to open fire when outnumbered like that, but it's their right to make that choice when armed intruders break into their home. (And really without the whole knock, announcement, warrant thing the home owner doesn't know the intruders are police.) Making this clear shouldn't exclude these other excellent ideas.
Why not both?
I don't think it's necessarily wise for a homeowner to open fire when outnumbered like that, but it's their right to make that choice when armed intruders break into their home. (And really without the whole knock, announcement, warrant thing the home owner doesn't know the intruders are police.) Making this clear shouldn't exclude these other excellent ideas.
The police dont pay fines or repair anything - tax payers do. But cops do enter the houses where they might find someone that answers fire. Only the latter is a dissuasive.
There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, "The only way to stop a bad guy from swatting you is a good guy with his own personal SWAT team."
Own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. Four ruffians break into my house. "What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog. I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot, "Tally ho lads" the grape shot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion. He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. Just as the founding fathers intended.
There's evidence the framers of the Constitution intended for citizens to be able to own weapons that gave the federal government pause if the federal government decided to overstep its bounds.
Specifically, even in 1787 it was seeming likely that there was a good chance that at some point the federal government was going to abolish slavery by force, and the framers of the Constitution needed the southern states on board with the Constitution's stronger central government vs. the Articles of Confederation.
So, they probably intended weapons of some proportionate power compared to contemporary military weapons, but the ultimate underlying motivations are suspect.
On the other hand, I could imagine a world where in 1787 alcohol and/or marijuana were legal in some states and illegal in others and the framers were worried about federal troops imposing national drug policy on drugs that never crossed state lines. In that case, it seems more reasonable, which I guess lends respectability to their reasoning at a medium level of abstraction.
Specifically, even in 1787 it was seeming likely that there was a good chance that at some point the federal government was going to abolish slavery by force, and the framers of the Constitution needed the southern states on board with the Constitution's stronger central government vs. the Articles of Confederation.
So, they probably intended weapons of some proportionate power compared to contemporary military weapons, but the ultimate underlying motivations are suspect.
On the other hand, I could imagine a world where in 1787 alcohol and/or marijuana were legal in some states and illegal in others and the framers were worried about federal troops imposing national drug policy on drugs that never crossed state lines. In that case, it seems more reasonable, which I guess lends respectability to their reasoning at a medium level of abstraction.
And yet those same people you mock, using only the tools you described, threw off the yoke of the largest world power at the time.
Amongst the reasons they did, were situations eerily similar to what we call "swatting" (and no-knock warrants), which were some motivations behind the fourth amendment.
An amendment that we have, through twisted legal interpretations and arguments for expediency, managed to largely de-fang (civil forfeiture, I'm looking at you).
Amongst the reasons they did, were situations eerily similar to what we call "swatting" (and no-knock warrants), which were some motivations behind the fourth amendment.
An amendment that we have, through twisted legal interpretations and arguments for expediency, managed to largely de-fang (civil forfeiture, I'm looking at you).
He graduated top of his class in the Navy Seals and was involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, with over 300 confirmed kills. I think he knows what’s up.
> using only the tools you described
Well, that and the French navy.
Well, that and the French navy.
Dear Diary,
Today the pasta was good.
Today the pasta was good.
The funny thing is, while "to protect yourself from government tyranny" is the favorite phrase of gun enthusiasts and gun lobbies in this country, whenever a citizen uses a gun in justifiable defense against police (the most recent notable one being Breonna Taylor's case) these same people side with the police every time.
This is inaccurate. I know many people on both sides of the gun debate and I don't know a single person who doesn't want police reform regarding no-knock raids. I don't know a single gun owner who supports the police in the Breonna Taylor incident.
The overwhelmingly vast majority of "protect yourself from government tyranny" types want to massively curtail police powers.
The overwhelmingly vast majority of "protect yourself from government tyranny" types want to massively curtail police powers.
> The overwhelmingly vast majority of "protect yourself from government tyranny" types want to massively curtail police powers
I find this hard to believe. Back the blue, blue lives matter, thin blue line people are propagated by gun enthusiasts who use nice slogans like “government tyranny” to justify their positions in a shallow and emotional way. There’s no actual belief in government tyranny, otherwise they wouldn’t stand with the law enforcement arm of the government’s elevated agents.
I find this hard to believe. Back the blue, blue lives matter, thin blue line people are propagated by gun enthusiasts who use nice slogans like “government tyranny” to justify their positions in a shallow and emotional way. There’s no actual belief in government tyranny, otherwise they wouldn’t stand with the law enforcement arm of the government’s elevated agents.
You seem to be saying that if the majority of "back the blue" folks are gun enthusiasts, that means the majority of gun enthusiasts are "back the blue" folks. I'm not sure if either is true, but if it were, you still couldn't infer one from the other.
Weird that we can't vote for that then. Seems like you may be counting wrong.
Some politicians have staked themselves on this issue publicly. Can't recall the name, but a GOP candidate explicitly said that he would shoot the police if the entered with a no-knock warrant into his home.
One challenge is that citizens side with the police in court.
One challenge is that citizens side with the police in court.
It doesn't even get to court very often, thanks to police investigating themselves, and DAs who are beholden to them one way or another.
> these same people side with the police every time.
Not all of us.
Not all of us.
I have a few questions about the relevance of this.
> 1.2 guns per citizen
After 1 gun, do guns truly become more dangerous? For someone opening a door, I don't think handgun vs AR vs shotgun is a very meaningful distinction - you're going to die if you get shot in the face
> loaded up to the gills
Isn't it true that one of the top arguments used against gun control that criminals will have the weapons anyways?
Therefore, as a LEO being summoned to a potential crime scene, isn't it true that they would behave in accordance with the person being a potential criminal, and therefore living outside of "guns per citizen" statistics? And therefore isn't the global approach to SWATting likely done without respect to the local environment, but instead in accordance with best practices of deescalation and safety?
I look forward to hearing you expand your thoughts.
> 1.2 guns per citizen
After 1 gun, do guns truly become more dangerous? For someone opening a door, I don't think handgun vs AR vs shotgun is a very meaningful distinction - you're going to die if you get shot in the face
> loaded up to the gills
Isn't it true that one of the top arguments used against gun control that criminals will have the weapons anyways?
Therefore, as a LEO being summoned to a potential crime scene, isn't it true that they would behave in accordance with the person being a potential criminal, and therefore living outside of "guns per citizen" statistics? And therefore isn't the global approach to SWATting likely done without respect to the local environment, but instead in accordance with best practices of deescalation and safety?
I look forward to hearing you expand your thoughts.
A small group of Americans actually own guns, maybe 20%. So yes, the average gun owner has more like 5 guns.
As for entering the property, if there’s five people and one gun, that’s a lot different to five people and thirty guns.
As for entering the property, if there’s five people and one gun, that’s a lot different to five people and thirty guns.
Your stats seemed low, so I looked it up on this Gallup poll. The data is from two years ago, but it probably hasn't changed much.
32% of US adults say they own a gun. 44% of adults say they live in a house that has at least one gun.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own...
However, I agree with your overall sentiment -- the distribution is far from uniform.
32% of US adults say they own a gun. 44% of adults say they live in a house that has at least one gun.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own...
However, I agree with your overall sentiment -- the distribution is far from uniform.
It's best to look at households because children generally don't own their own gun, and often if there is a couple, only one of them will own a gun (usually the man).
44% of US households have at least one firearm in the house.
Not "a small group".
In terms of individuals of all ages, it's 32% of all individuals owning guns -- 45% of all men own a gun but only 19% of all women own a gun.
Therefore the population where it's unusual to own a gun is single women. Single men are also less likely to own a gun than married men.
If we look at those who are married, 52% of all married couples live in a household with guns.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own...
44% of US households have at least one firearm in the house.
Not "a small group".
In terms of individuals of all ages, it's 32% of all individuals owning guns -- 45% of all men own a gun but only 19% of all women own a gun.
Therefore the population where it's unusual to own a gun is single women. Single men are also less likely to own a gun than married men.
If we look at those who are married, 52% of all married couples live in a household with guns.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own...
You mean 44% of Americans have more like 3 guns, by the official record, which vaguely addresses my weakest point I suppose. Not sure this does anything to justify the US approach to policing
Most of the SWATing issues are in states where households have 30-40% rates, many with as high as 55-65% https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...
Switzerland is, yeah. No such issue there, however.
Switzerland is about 1/5 the guns per capita. If you look at US state gun prevalence, it reliably correlates to the where higher numbers of police are killed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...
Chicken/egg problem. Who escalated first?
You can solve this by not giving police guns in the first place.
Probably solvable by de-escalating both at the same time.
Ammunition is tightly controlled in Switzerland as far as I understand. Having guns is not that helpful without some ammunition. Most people are not going to be prepared to produce ammunition
You need a permit to buy ammunition in Switzerland, just as you need a permit to buy guns. But the permit is available if you do not have a criminal record. Ammunition is not more tightly controlled than guns, both are controlled, but not as tightly as in places like New York or California in the U.S.
There are also government subsidized shooting ranges that do not require these permits.
There are also government subsidized shooting ranges that do not require these permits.
Buying guns requires a permit (and a background check and maybe a chat with the local police department) but to buy ammunition in Switzerland you don't need a permit. Just a clean background check that you can request online.
While true, the culture of guns in Switzerland is very different to the US.
People spread this detail without knowing that the Swiss instead strickly control access to ammunition.
I’m unsure why people think this is true. If you have the ability to buy a gun in Switzerland you can buy any amount of ammo just as easily.
The difference is strong regulations disallowing carrying/transporting loaded weapons and enforcing storage requirements as well as a very different gun culture without the emphasis on handguns for self-protection.
The difference is strong regulations disallowing carrying/transporting loaded weapons and enforcing storage requirements as well as a very different gun culture without the emphasis on handguns for self-protection.
As for Switzerland: "military service is required; and military firearms are kept in homes—which historians credit for Germany never invading Switzerland during World War II."
Far smaller population than the USA, and loads more variables to consider when comparing the two. But at least one country gets it pretty Damn Right with Guns!
Far smaller population than the USA, and loads more variables to consider when comparing the two. But at least one country gets it pretty Damn Right with Guns!
You're suggesting that police officers would face a significant danger merely knocking on the door of a gun owner's home, which is silly. Just because someone has a gun doesn't mean they're going to unload on anyone knocking on their door, much less a uniformed police officer.
Also: 2/3rds of Americans don't own a gun, and only 44% even live in a house with a gun.
Ever notice that only in a very small number of cases does a "swatting" result in any danger to the officers, such as the homeowner shooting an officer? The number of times this has happened is in the single digits. Hint: that's because there's little danger to police responding to these sorts of calls.
In fact, there's very little danger to police officers in the US, period. They have a murder rate lower than the general population, because people know that cops don't give a shit about when you or I are murdered (nation-wide the clearance rate for homicides is abysmal, one of the lowest in the developed world) but if a cop is killed, the killer will be correctly identified, found, and arrested within hours.
Being a cop in the US doesn't even rank in the top ten in terms of deaths on the job. Retail workers and cab drivers have a far higher homicide-on-the-job rate;
Pre-COVID the #1 killer of police, overwhelmingly, was traffic collisions, suicide, and heart disease.
During/after COVID, the #1 killer, despite police getting first-in-line access to the vaccine, was/is COVID. Completely preventable.
The reason these "swattings" are so dangerous is because police show up expecting a dangerous situation, confrontation, even though it's incredibly rare.
Also: 2/3rds of Americans don't own a gun, and only 44% even live in a house with a gun.
Ever notice that only in a very small number of cases does a "swatting" result in any danger to the officers, such as the homeowner shooting an officer? The number of times this has happened is in the single digits. Hint: that's because there's little danger to police responding to these sorts of calls.
In fact, there's very little danger to police officers in the US, period. They have a murder rate lower than the general population, because people know that cops don't give a shit about when you or I are murdered (nation-wide the clearance rate for homicides is abysmal, one of the lowest in the developed world) but if a cop is killed, the killer will be correctly identified, found, and arrested within hours.
Being a cop in the US doesn't even rank in the top ten in terms of deaths on the job. Retail workers and cab drivers have a far higher homicide-on-the-job rate;
Pre-COVID the #1 killer of police, overwhelmingly, was traffic collisions, suicide, and heart disease.
During/after COVID, the #1 killer, despite police getting first-in-line access to the vaccine, was/is COVID. Completely preventable.
The reason these "swattings" are so dangerous is because police show up expecting a dangerous situation, confrontation, even though it's incredibly rare.
That's a solvable problem it would seem? It's either that or more discipline.
Stopping the swatter doesn't do much, and still allows for people to be swatted.
The thing that needs an overhaul is the decision making on when to actually send out the swat team. It's lazy, expensive, and dangerous to send them out for every opportunity without any investigation
The thing that needs an overhaul is the decision making on when to actually send out the swat team. It's lazy, expensive, and dangerous to send them out for every opportunity without any investigation
It doesn't mean a literal SWAT team any more. Many departments have truly gone overkill with their everyday gear and tactics, and many of those that don't still seem SWAT-like. I would argue that the SFPD are usually relatively low key, but they now carry around night sticks which seem pretty bad ass, but are really meant to be an alternative to deadlier force.
We can do both: hold false reporters accountable while also demanding investigations into police recklessness.
That won't happen because cops love any excuse they can get to dress up, play with their shiny toys/weapons and crack some skulls while accruing overtime pay. We can't trust them to regulate themselves.
The overhaul we need is community oversight, community decision making and community policing.
The overhaul we need is community oversight, community decision making and community policing.
> Stopping the swatter doesn't do much, and still allows for people to be swatted.
A record of high profile cases where swatters get caught and incarcerated would be a great deterrent.
A record of high profile cases where swatters get caught and incarcerated would be a great deterrent.
Sure but the ultimate perpetrator of the violence in these cases is the police. We can solve the swatting problem and other serious problems simultaneously by stopping the police from bursting in to peoples homes with guns blazing and other unnecessary behaviors.
Specifically police need to learn about time, distance, and cover. Arrive on the scene and take cover a safe distance away from the perceived threat. Take time to identify the perceived threat and confirm they are really a danger. Only then should they attempt to deal with the threat if it actually proves to be one. This would have saved the life of Tamir Rice, a harmless child who was shot by a police officer who had not even finished stopping his car when he shot and killed the unarmed 12 year old. This would have saved the life of 22 year old John Crawford III who was shot by a police officer at WalMart. Crawford had picked up an un-packaged BB gun and then continued shopping. Someone misunderstood the situation and called the police. When officers arrived they ignored the lack of distress among other customers which should have been present, and fired shots at Crawford almost immediately upon entering the store.
There are many accounts like this. Police behavior leads to many unnecessary deaths and swatting is only a threat because of police failing to assess a situation firsthand.
Specifically police need to learn about time, distance, and cover. Arrive on the scene and take cover a safe distance away from the perceived threat. Take time to identify the perceived threat and confirm they are really a danger. Only then should they attempt to deal with the threat if it actually proves to be one. This would have saved the life of Tamir Rice, a harmless child who was shot by a police officer who had not even finished stopping his car when he shot and killed the unarmed 12 year old. This would have saved the life of 22 year old John Crawford III who was shot by a police officer at WalMart. Crawford had picked up an un-packaged BB gun and then continued shopping. Someone misunderstood the situation and called the police. When officers arrived they ignored the lack of distress among other customers which should have been present, and fired shots at Crawford almost immediately upon entering the store.
There are many accounts like this. Police behavior leads to many unnecessary deaths and swatting is only a threat because of police failing to assess a situation firsthand.
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If I call the cops because some armed gunman is breaking into my house, I don’t want them to send some unarmed patrolman to politely knock on my door and check whether everything is okay.
By the time you make that call, regardless of who responds, you'll be dead OR the gunman will have what they want. Home invasions rarely result in hostage situations.
You haven't seen US houses. They call them McMansions for a reason. The intruders will still be searching the third hallway to nowhere while I'm comfortably calling the police from my summertime reading nook.
If the authorities are too slow to respond they get crucified (extreme case: Uvalde, Texas school shooting earlier this year where the cops sat paralyzed while children were actively being murdered by a gunman).
I don't like the five-oh but going the route you're proposing will make some instances much worse with avoidable loss of life.
I don't like the five-oh but going the route you're proposing will make some instances much worse with avoidable loss of life.
I don't think that's a good comparison. That was 100+ cops standing around while kids were being shot. How often do swat type all out assaults from cops into buildings save people? They are rare. The cops add risk more than they save risk from attackers.
In this case, there is a demonstrated and repeated danger from these swatting attacks. They don't have proper risk management in the police forces of the us, as demonstrated by swatting killing people. The authorities being too slow is not a demonstrated problem, it's the opposite.
In this case, there is a demonstrated and repeated danger from these swatting attacks. They don't have proper risk management in the police forces of the us, as demonstrated by swatting killing people. The authorities being too slow is not a demonstrated problem, it's the opposite.
This is an extremely poor example that further illustrates the murderous recklessness of swat teams. The fact that there was a shooter at Uvalde was obvious upon arriving at the scene. Meanwhile, a traditional swat involves a completely innocuous house with no apparent hostiles, because there aren't any hostiles, and yet deaths still occur because of the recklessness of the swat teams. Imagine if you had a school with no shooter and a false report; would the swat teams burst through the windows and start mowing down students at random? Unthinkable, yes?
Are you proposing a mechanism by which this decision can reliably be made? If not I'm not sure you're asking for something reasonable. The first person who dies because the police were too slow or too weak to respond will cause as much outrage as what you express here.
Well yes, if there are gunshots or similar sounds indicating urgent entry is needed then do so, otherwise maybe knock on the door. People die all the time because police don't intervene, there was even a Supreme Court ruling that found that police have no duty to intervene to save your life. The least they can do is not rashly toss an incendiary device through your window or into your child's crib[1].
[1]https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
[1]https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...
Every officer on the scene at Uvalde knew there was a shooter in the classroom. Gunshots had been heard by people on the scene. Eyewitnesses on the scene had seen a shooter entering with weapons. Children in the classroom were calling in from their phones.
If the only information police had was a phone call from an anonymous VOIP number, then they'd be comparable.
If the only information police had was a phone call from an anonymous VOIP number, then they'd be comparable.
The police were following a shooter as he entered the school. The police knew there was a shooter in the school the second the shooter walked through the door.
There is a middle ground between, for example the shooting of Tamir Rice, where the officer shot and killed this innocent 12 year old boy before his police car had even come to a stop, and Uvalde where police stood around for an hour. Police should take time to observe the situation (this could be 30 seconds), take cover a safe distance away (this was not done with Tamir Rice), confirm the threat is real, attempt to de-escalate, and shoot only if necessary. We see in many cases police burst on to the scene and shoot almost immediately, and this leads to unnecessary death.
It's not like those instances had a single random person phoning it in. This comparison doesn't work.
Especially the one where cops were already there.
This isn't a giant dial that says "cops go fast" <-> "cops go slow"
Especially the one where cops were already there.
This isn't a giant dial that says "cops go fast" <-> "cops go slow"
Uvalde probably would have gone down better without a swat team because the beat cops actually would have gone in when they got there if they knew they didn't have backup to wait for.
Why does the claim that a police presence is needed somewhere result in the death of innocent people? Why are the police prepared for war when visiting someone's residence? What situation, time and time again, can possibly justify this kind of repeated response?
Put in another, more unpleasant way, how many innocent deaths are worth one police officer death, because law enforcement justifies this due to (truly existent, but I think extremely overstated) danger inherent in the job.
But I think any rational mind can perceive it's way too far skewed in one direction.
Put in another, more unpleasant way, how many innocent deaths are worth one police officer death, because law enforcement justifies this due to (truly existent, but I think extremely overstated) danger inherent in the job.
But I think any rational mind can perceive it's way too far skewed in one direction.
The police get deference in the courts, and their answer is: as many as it takes
It already is considered attempted murder by some localities. The issue is usually catching the swatter. They often use anonymous VOIP services and voice changers (if they are even in the same country as the target), so it is effectively impossible to track them down.
The question is: why is it possible to place a 911 call without all that information being laid bare before the dispatcher and logged. There are extraordinary regulations on carriers for E911, and thus a means to impose that requirement.
I'm hearing "let's block or delay 911 calls for [a reason]." Not sure that'll get a lot of traction.
It's an awful problem that will exist as long as people suck.
It's an awful problem that will exist as long as people suck.
This is a problem created and continued by phone companies. It wasn’t a huge problem before VoIP because the phone company networks didn’t allow everyone to forge sender info (SS7, not CallerID). When VoIP came along they didn’t put strict authentication in because it would have cost more, and that really opened things up.
Right now, you could have extra caution for 911 calls which originate from VoIP. Pass a law that in five years telco CEOs are charged as assisting murder the next time a SWATing happens and they’d magically discover that egress filtering is easy to implement once you’re not looking at the revenue generated by spammers.
Right now, you could have extra caution for 911 calls which originate from VoIP. Pass a law that in five years telco CEOs are charged as assisting murder the next time a SWATing happens and they’d magically discover that egress filtering is easy to implement once you’re not looking at the revenue generated by spammers.
Sounds easy, but I think you'll find that in practice, it's not so easy to just toss around murder (or accessory to murder) charges because something annoys you. Even if it annoys you a lot. It's a slippery slope from that to making basically anything a "murder" charge. Not saying you can't pass some sort of law or create some sort of penalty, but murder-related charges aren't going to fly.
First, it’s a thought exercise - people are talking like this some unavoidable fact of nature when it’s largely unique to the United States where we have the combination of heavily armed cops with poor trigger discipline and a phone system which is increasingly useless because the companies were allowed to prioritize revenue over security.
Second, you can argue anything will be a slippery slope (you should hear what people say raising the capital gains rate 1% will do) but it’s intellectually dishonest to pretend there’s no distinction between contributing to a violence death and “basically anything”. Operating critical safety infrastructure should carry responsibilities beyond the average business.
Second, you can argue anything will be a slippery slope (you should hear what people say raising the capital gains rate 1% will do) but it’s intellectually dishonest to pretend there’s no distinction between contributing to a violence death and “basically anything”. Operating critical safety infrastructure should carry responsibilities beyond the average business.
Slippery-slope fallacies are bad to use, it's a slippery-slope to literally anything being called a "slippery-slope" to literally anything else. Eating beans causes more vandalism? Slippery slope! Poodles with weird haircuts cause global warming? Slippery-slope!
Because the system has to fail safe. If there's a network glitch or somebody is using a bottom-tier pay-as-you-go mobile or a cheap-ass VOIP phone, they still need to be able to call for an ambulance, a fire truck, or the police.
> They often use anonymous VOIP services and voice changers
using a voice changer is asking for trouble... I would use synthesized speech
using a voice changer is asking for trouble... I would use synthesized speech
> It already is considered attempted murder by some localities
Is there a link to this? The government decided that calling another branch of the government for help is so dangerous it is an attempt to murder?
Is there a link to this? The government decided that calling another branch of the government for help is so dangerous it is an attempt to murder?
It’s calling a branch of the government and describing a situation involving imminent or ongoing violence which the government is expected (though not legally obligated) to respond to.
BY making it worse?
It's one thing that it happens, but the fact that it is being normalised is what's truly repugnant. 'Swatting' someone in Britain does not cause any deaths.
It's one thing that it happens, but the fact that it is being normalised is what's truly repugnant. 'Swatting' someone in Britain does not cause any deaths.
Swatting is the result of an aggressive police.
Of course those scam calls are guilty, but the police should also be less aggressive.
If the police would fix it's behavior swatting wouldn't exist.
Of course those scam calls are guilty, but the police should also be less aggressive.
If the police would fix it's behavior swatting wouldn't exist.
I hope that one day we can trust cops not to murder people based on anonymous phoned-in tips. Seems more rational than expecting random marginal people and the mentally ill to care about some draconian penalty for something they don't think they're likely to get caught for.
As far as I can tell from this report, no-one was shot at, so maybe the correction is already being made. On the other hand, I would not mind those who still find swatting appealing to be presented with plenty of time to develop some form of maturity before they are in a position to repeat. It's not like these are contradictory goals.
Proving attempted murder is very difficult, but "SWATting" already falls under the broad umbrella of 'assault'. It seems like the police are likely guilty of criminal negligence as well.
Genuinely curious: What is the crime if I shoot a gun at a house knowing that it is occupied?it seems obvious that if I kill an occupant it would be murder, but what happens if I don’t?
Not a lawyer, but if you intentionally shoot a gun at somebody and miss, that's attempted murder. Just because there's a house in the way doesn't change that, if the prosecutor wants to play it that way.
In places where there are strong gun laws, like Queensland, you have offences relating to the weapon, separate laws for damaging the building and circumstances of aggravation if you do some real damage with risk of loss of life
WEAPONS ACT 1990 - SECT 78 Weapons not to be discharged or operated - a fine- but also usually, a range of offences related to use, possession, storage of the weapon and ammunition
CRIMINAL CODE 1899 - SECT 69 Going armed so as to cause fear (1) Any person who goes armed in public without lawful occasion in such a manner as to cause fear to any person is guilty of a misdemeanour, and is liable to imprisonment for 2 years.
469 Wilful damage (1) Any person who wilfully and unlawfully destroys or damages any property is guilty of an offence which, unless otherwise stated, is a misdemeanour, and the person is liable, if no other punishment is provided, to imprisonment for 5 years.
Punishment in special cases 1 Destroying or damaging premises by explosion If— (a) the property in question is premises; and (b) the destruction or damage is caused by an explosion; and (c) either— (i) anyone is in or on the premises when the explosion happens; or (ii) the destruction or damage actually endangers anyone’s life; the offender commits a crime. Penalty— Maximum penalty—life imprisonment.
but what you will find is that this sort of activity rarely happens randomly- usually there is a relationship between the victim and the attacker- so something related to stalking, extortion (demanding money with menaces) etc. And those all carry heavy possible penalties. (5 years, 7 years etc)
WEAPONS ACT 1990 - SECT 78 Weapons not to be discharged or operated - a fine- but also usually, a range of offences related to use, possession, storage of the weapon and ammunition
CRIMINAL CODE 1899 - SECT 69 Going armed so as to cause fear (1) Any person who goes armed in public without lawful occasion in such a manner as to cause fear to any person is guilty of a misdemeanour, and is liable to imprisonment for 2 years.
469 Wilful damage (1) Any person who wilfully and unlawfully destroys or damages any property is guilty of an offence which, unless otherwise stated, is a misdemeanour, and the person is liable, if no other punishment is provided, to imprisonment for 5 years.
Punishment in special cases 1 Destroying or damaging premises by explosion If— (a) the property in question is premises; and (b) the destruction or damage is caused by an explosion; and (c) either— (i) anyone is in or on the premises when the explosion happens; or (ii) the destruction or damage actually endangers anyone’s life; the offender commits a crime. Penalty— Maximum penalty—life imprisonment.
but what you will find is that this sort of activity rarely happens randomly- usually there is a relationship between the victim and the attacker- so something related to stalking, extortion (demanding money with menaces) etc. And those all carry heavy possible penalties. (5 years, 7 years etc)
In my state, one of the laws is
> Whoever discharges a firearm as defined in section one hundred and twenty-one of chapter one hundred and forty, a rifle or shotgun within five hundred feet of a dwelling or other building in use, except with the consent of the owner or legal occupant thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not less than fifty nor more than one hundred dollars or by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than three months, or both.
This is the law that would definitely apply. Interestingly, it appears that there is a bill before the state legislature that would cover specifically shooting at a dwelling (with intent to hit it), which would carry 5 years/$10k fine.
Depending on particular fact patterns, it might fall under attempted murder, reckless endangerment, or other charge in a similar vein. This sort of stuff tends to be extremely jursidiction-dependent.
> Whoever discharges a firearm as defined in section one hundred and twenty-one of chapter one hundred and forty, a rifle or shotgun within five hundred feet of a dwelling or other building in use, except with the consent of the owner or legal occupant thereof, shall be punished by a fine of not less than fifty nor more than one hundred dollars or by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than three months, or both.
This is the law that would definitely apply. Interestingly, it appears that there is a bill before the state legislature that would cover specifically shooting at a dwelling (with intent to hit it), which would carry 5 years/$10k fine.
Depending on particular fact patterns, it might fall under attempted murder, reckless endangerment, or other charge in a similar vein. This sort of stuff tends to be extremely jursidiction-dependent.
reckless endangerment?
It might not be murder if you shoot a gun at an occupied house; it could be manslaughter, the laws vary by jurisdiction.
One definition (there are many) of assault is as follows: "... the intentional application of force upon another person, directly or indirectly, without the other person’s consent. Classified as a criminal act, it can and will be tried in court."
One definition (there are many) of assault is as follows: "... the intentional application of force upon another person, directly or indirectly, without the other person’s consent. Classified as a criminal act, it can and will be tried in court."
There is indeed a substantial risk with police, but I think it would set a bad precedent to say that death is an expected outcome of being SWATted. Reckless endangerment would be more appropriate. From a quick glance on Wikipedia it has death as a likely outcome, not an expected one like with attempted murder.
I mean the police should obviously also be charged with murder when they murder someone.
Swatting is wrong, but it brings awareness to the police problem in the US...
Why is it always boys and men who do swatting?
Here in Australia the incarceration rate of men vs women is about 12.5 : 1
So I'd guess the answer to your question is something like: for the same reasons that men commit the overwhelming majority of violent crime, which probably has something to do with evolution and testosterone and culture.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/648093/australia-impriso...
So I'd guess the answer to your question is something like: for the same reasons that men commit the overwhelming majority of violent crime, which probably has something to do with evolution and testosterone and culture.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/648093/australia-impriso...
Boys and men are conservatively responsible for like 90% of violence, from suicide to dropping nukes.
This - though increasingly, women have their finger on the nuclear button, and there are one or two I would not trust any more than the guys.
Women invented "school shootings" though! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_sh...
Interesting, I always loosely considered the Bath, Michigan incident the first “shooting” though it was actually a bombing, more so Mass School Violence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster
I think it’s some kind of subculture, not sure whether women ever do it though but I suspect gaming to be somewhat involved, mainly shooting/war games where boys/men are in larger numbers
That's the 4chan demographic.
That seems excessive. I would consider swatting lesser than attempted voluntary manslaughter which carries a maximum 10 year federal sentence. It’s also typically prosecuted at the state level, which kinda messes things up for the Feds. Reckless endangerment feels more appropriate, perhaps a bit too soft at 2 years maximum, though it is rarely prosecuted at the federal level. So 5 years maximum for the federal conspiracy charges seems basically in-line with any reasonable expectation.
Attempted manslaughter is a federal crime? This doesn't sound right to me, as a (former) lawyer. I would think that special circumstances would be necessary for a homicide or attempted homicide to be a federal crime, which would explain why there might be a mandatory minimum.
Yes, 18 U.S. C. § 1113. The special circumstances can be as simple as breaking another Federal law while committing manslaughter. Of course the Feds would much rather stick to prosecuting crimes that don’t overlap state laws.
The section you cite appears to only apply to crimes committed "within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States", which is defined here [1]. By my reading, it does not include crimes committed inside of US states. It is limited to ships, areas outside of other countries, and various other places. Am I missing something?
Also, it doesn't require a 10 year sentence — it refers to "not more than seven years or fined under this title, or both.". [2] That literally means that no prison time is required. There is a cap on prison time, and it could be completely eliminated if a fine is given instead. Not exactly harsh treatment!
1: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/7#
2: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1113
Also, it doesn't require a 10 year sentence — it refers to "not more than seven years or fined under this title, or both.". [2] That literally means that no prison time is required. There is a cap on prison time, and it could be completely eliminated if a fine is given instead. Not exactly harsh treatment!
1: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/7#
2: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1113
> The section you cite appears to only apply to crimes committed "within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States", which is defined here [1]. By my reading, it does not include crimes committed inside of US states. It is limited to ships, areas outside of other countries, and various other places. Am I missing something?
It applies to land in states that is owned by the US government, which can include a lot of land thought of as inside states (national parks and military bases are the goto examples here). If you want real fun, try working out which law applies when you're on tribal land.
It applies to land in states that is owned by the US government, which can include a lot of land thought of as inside states (national parks and military bases are the goto examples here). If you want real fun, try working out which law applies when you're on tribal land.
It's completely premeditated which is IIRC the main criterion for legally speaking 'murder'.
It’s not. The premeditated part gets you “voluntary” but the activity they chose to engage in carries only a very minor risk of death. They haven’t set out to kill somebody.
No. If I drive to a random house and start shooting at it, I don’t get to call that reckless endangerment. If I kill someone I sure as hell don’t get to call it an accident.
It does not matter if you think how is police operate is unreasonable, what matters is that what they do is well known and established, and the outcome is foreseeable.
Also, if your best defense is “this isn’t attempted murder, it’s just terrorism” I have questions.
It does not matter if you think how is police operate is unreasonable, what matters is that what they do is well known and established, and the outcome is foreseeable.
Also, if your best defense is “this isn’t attempted murder, it’s just terrorism” I have questions.
Your analogy doesn’t hold because it’s a very different crime with very different intent and culpability.
I’m simply pointing to the most similar Federal crimes and pointing out that the sentences are proportional. For comparison, Federal attempted murder-to-hire is only 10 years and that’s clearly a much worse crime.
Tragically there’s now over 1000 cases of swatting per year. Only one person (Andrew Finch) has been killed by police. (The swatter in this case was charged with involuntary manslaughter and got 20 years in jail).
It’s not comparable to murder because it’s much more likely that someone would be killed by you offering them a ride in your car than by swatting them.
I’m simply pointing to the most similar Federal crimes and pointing out that the sentences are proportional. For comparison, Federal attempted murder-to-hire is only 10 years and that’s clearly a much worse crime.
Tragically there’s now over 1000 cases of swatting per year. Only one person (Andrew Finch) has been killed by police. (The swatter in this case was charged with involuntary manslaughter and got 20 years in jail).
It’s not comparable to murder because it’s much more likely that someone would be killed by you offering them a ride in your car than by swatting them.
>It’s not comparable to murder because it’s much more likely that someone would be killed by you offering them a ride in your car than by swatting them.
My car rides don't come with a 0.1% chance of death. I'm not that bad of a driver.
My car rides don't come with a 0.1% chance of death. I'm not that bad of a driver.
You're right, it's probably higher. Your skill as a driver doesn't make it impossible for a drunk driver in another car to hit yours, unfortunately.
If I drive 1 trip per day, a 0.1% chance of death on each trip means I would only survive 3 years on average. And I take more than 1 trip per day. Most people live much more than 3 years, so the risk is certainly less than 0.1% per trip.
Let's calculate it. There were 42,915 traffic deaths in the US in 2021.[1]
Americans take 411 billion trips per year.[2]
That's 42915/411000000000 = 0.00001% chance of death per trip. So a driving trip is 10000x safer than being swatted.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...
[2] https://www.bts.gov/statistical-products/surveys/national-ho...
Let's calculate it. There were 42,915 traffic deaths in the US in 2021.[1]
Americans take 411 billion trips per year.[2]
That's 42915/411000000000 = 0.00001% chance of death per trip. So a driving trip is 10000x safer than being swatted.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...
[2] https://www.bts.gov/statistical-products/surveys/national-ho...
Surely if the caller is getting charged with attempt to murder, then the SWAT doing the swatting should be charged with the same crime?
How can the caller be more culpable than the one actually commiting the crime? This literally never happens in the history of crime.
How can the caller be more culpable than the one actually commiting the crime? This literally never happens in the history of crime.
>Surely if the caller is getting charged with attempt to murder, then the SWAT doing the swatting should be charged with the same crime?
The SWAT team didn't intend to hurt innocent people. They thought they were saving innocent people. The swatter was intentionally terrorizing innocent people.
The SWAT team didn't intend to hurt innocent people. They thought they were saving innocent people. The swatter was intentionally terrorizing innocent people.
What?
What you just said is "if someone falsely accuses another person of a crime, and the police arrest them, then the police are guilty of kidnapping", "if someone falsely reports a house fire and fire fighters break into the house to put it out, they are guilty of breaking and entering", etc.
Emergency services respond to the reported emergency, for SWAT that often involves an immediate threat to people's lives, so they come in with the expectation that they will need to use force. Now the increasing occurrence of swatting means that US swat teams should be aware of the possibility of false call outs, but they have to deal with "is this a case where me turning up results in someone killing their family if I don't stop them immediately, or is it a case where some dude on the internet doesn't like someone else?".
The whole point of a swatting is police are being told that the victim is has a gun and is threatening to kill people, which is effective because you get the same call when there is an actual person with a gun threatening to kill people.
Now US SWAT does have an issue (imo) that goes with US policing in general of putting safety of police/swat above anyone else, which is a real issue, but as everyone knows this it merely adds to the "you knew your actions had a significant likelihood of getting someone killed".
What you just said is "if someone falsely accuses another person of a crime, and the police arrest them, then the police are guilty of kidnapping", "if someone falsely reports a house fire and fire fighters break into the house to put it out, they are guilty of breaking and entering", etc.
Emergency services respond to the reported emergency, for SWAT that often involves an immediate threat to people's lives, so they come in with the expectation that they will need to use force. Now the increasing occurrence of swatting means that US swat teams should be aware of the possibility of false call outs, but they have to deal with "is this a case where me turning up results in someone killing their family if I don't stop them immediately, or is it a case where some dude on the internet doesn't like someone else?".
The whole point of a swatting is police are being told that the victim is has a gun and is threatening to kill people, which is effective because you get the same call when there is an actual person with a gun threatening to kill people.
Now US SWAT does have an issue (imo) that goes with US policing in general of putting safety of police/swat above anyone else, which is a real issue, but as everyone knows this it merely adds to the "you knew your actions had a significant likelihood of getting someone killed".
Because cops are (mostly) above the law.
No.
I mean yes, cops are mostly above the law, and in the US they definitely murder enough (disproportionately PoC) people without consequences to be a problem.
But in this case police are being told their are people with guns threatening to kill people, which is exactly the case where police are ostensibly justified in using force.
Police killing a swatting victim is meaningfully difference from police making up a fake claims to get a warrant, breaking down a door without notice, and then shooting at anyone who moves, or pulling someone over, asking if they have a gun, and then shooting them if they say yes, etc
I mean yes, cops are mostly above the law, and in the US they definitely murder enough (disproportionately PoC) people without consequences to be a problem.
But in this case police are being told their are people with guns threatening to kill people, which is exactly the case where police are ostensibly justified in using force.
Police killing a swatting victim is meaningfully difference from police making up a fake claims to get a warrant, breaking down a door without notice, and then shooting at anyone who moves, or pulling someone over, asking if they have a gun, and then shooting them if they say yes, etc
Hacked Ring Cams Used to Record Swatting Victims : https://krebsonsecurity.com/2022/12/hacked-ring-cams-used-to...
(2017) Thugs who sent Brian Krebs heroin and a SWAT team sentenced : https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2017/02/21/thugs-who-sent-b...
SWATting - Krebs on Security : https://krebsonsecurity.com/tag/swatting/
(2017) Thugs who sent Brian Krebs heroin and a SWAT team sentenced : https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2017/02/21/thugs-who-sent-b...
SWATting - Krebs on Security : https://krebsonsecurity.com/tag/swatting/
I don't get it, if "swatting is a serious crime" why aren't there TWELVE charges for that specifically with mandatory sentences of years?
Instead they use other charges with a few years?
Tricking the police to go kill people is not an "accident" or "oops" or "just kidding", it's a "well that's enough freedom for this lifetime, guess I want to spend rest of my life in prison".
Instead they use other charges with a few years?
Tricking the police to go kill people is not an "accident" or "oops" or "just kidding", it's a "well that's enough freedom for this lifetime, guess I want to spend rest of my life in prison".
I half think this needs a (2020), because even though the article is fresh, the actual incident is two years old.
I remember hearing about swatting back then, but not with Ring. Perhaps this contains more detail on Ring.
Not really. Yahoo email addresses were hacked and then the associated Ring accounts were compromised and used to livestream swattings. The only thing that might be considered specific to Ring is they they didn't require 2FA until after this happened.
If you half think it, why do you even say it?
Perfect article painfully explaining why you do not want to re-use your passwords.
> conduct regular scans for Ring passwords compromised in non-Ring breaches
Does this mean that Ring stores plaintext passwords?
Does this mean that Ring stores plaintext passwords?
No. You take the compromised plaintext password, hash it using the same algorithm you typically do for your customers, then you check the hash for matches in your database of existing customer password hashes.
Shouldn't salting make that expensive?
Not if your only checking 1 possibility rather than a few million.
It could take on the order of a few seconds per password in the worst case. Normally a few Milliseconds.
So 1,000,000 breached passwords * 100ms per check is 100,000 CPU seconds or about 30 CPU hours to check all passwords. The is easily paraliseable so imagine more like 10-20 minutes in parallel.
It could take on the order of a few seconds per password in the worst case. Normally a few Milliseconds.
So 1,000,000 breached passwords * 100ms per check is 100,000 CPU seconds or about 30 CPU hours to check all passwords. The is easily paraliseable so imagine more like 10-20 minutes in parallel.
>So 1,000,000 breached passwords * 100ms per check is 100,000 CPU seconds or about 30 CPU hours to check all passwords.
For a single user's account. Multiply that by 1 million ring users and you get 30 million CPU hours.
For a single user's account. Multiply that by 1 million ring users and you get 30 million CPU hours.
More likely shared passwords, I think
Yes. But how does Ring perform the scan? It'll take quite a lot of CPU.
No. They use rainbow tables: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_table
If they have a hash, but there is no indication this is due to a breach of Amazon but likely people getting viruses by installing EXE porn and what not.
Rainbow tables only work if there aren't per-user salts. I assume Ring uses per-user salts, meaning rainbow tables won't work.
You would think so, but, it seems that rainbow tables are surprisingly effective, so that tells you that a lot of corporations -I suspect IoT are the worst offenders- are on low-sodium diets.
Do you have a source for rainbow tables are surprisingly effective?
I was actually under the impression that they're generally overhyped and not useful in most situations.
Even if most IoT companies don't use per-user salts, Ring is one of the most respected ones, since it's run by Amazon. So it likely has salts.
Actually, thinking about this more, I don't think rainbow tables are useful here even without per-user salts. The purpose of rainbow tables is to be a storage optimization, so that you can use less storage than a hash table, while still having a lot of the benefits of a hash table. But this specific use case discussed here is "passwords compromised in non-Ring breaches", for which there is enough storage for a hash table. So a rainbow table provides no benefit over a hash table.
For more information on what rainbow tables are read this (note that the first page doesn't even explain rainbow tables, you have to click part 2 at the bottom to get to the actual explanation of rainbow tables):
https://rsheasby.medium.com/rainbow-tables-probably-arent-wh...
I was actually under the impression that they're generally overhyped and not useful in most situations.
Even if most IoT companies don't use per-user salts, Ring is one of the most respected ones, since it's run by Amazon. So it likely has salts.
Actually, thinking about this more, I don't think rainbow tables are useful here even without per-user salts. The purpose of rainbow tables is to be a storage optimization, so that you can use less storage than a hash table, while still having a lot of the benefits of a hash table. But this specific use case discussed here is "passwords compromised in non-Ring breaches", for which there is enough storage for a hash table. So a rainbow table provides no benefit over a hash table.
For more information on what rainbow tables are read this (note that the first page doesn't even explain rainbow tables, you have to click part 2 at the bottom to get to the actual explanation of rainbow tables):
https://rsheasby.medium.com/rainbow-tables-probably-arent-wh...
It's entirely possible that my information (not really worth it for me to dig through years of browsing history to find it) is dated.
What you do is: you get someone's password from a hacked website that did store passwords in plaintext. Then you try using that same username/password combo to log into Ring.
Sure. But how many passwords do you check? Any how many users does Ring have? Multiply those 2 numbers, then multiply that by how slow the password hash is. That's a lot of CPU usage.
No, it means that they hash the breached passwords and compare those hashes to the stored hashes of customer passwords.
If Ring has per-user salts, which I assume they do, they'll have to hash each breached password individually for each Ring user. So multiply the number of breached passwords by the number of Ring users by the time a hash takes (slower is better) and you get a huge amount of CPU cost.
Maybe they just do the scan at login time.
Maybe that counts as "regular".
Maybe that counts as "regular".
At least USA can charge USA hacker. Imagine it is chinese or Russian hackers. Yes you can push to national security level etc etc. but at the end of the day can you push charge to a firm there or hacker there in most cases.
For security related matter like it or not it has to be traceable to USA or worst EU or UK.
For security related matter like it or not it has to be traceable to USA or worst EU or UK.
How were the Yahoo emails “hacked”?
Security compromise in 2013 and 2014 that resulted in stolen login info including hashed passwords. Possibly the biggest data breach of all time.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo!_data_breaches
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo!_data_breaches
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Almost every shitty thing young people do is due to their education. The other is social pressure but again the one applying the pressure also lacked proper education.
This seems like a pretty big generalization, just look at SBF as a counter example. There are plenty of educated young people that do stupid things, and depending on the stage of brain development there could be lots of other things at play: household dynamics being a prominent one, having the proper role models, plain ole human nature, etc...
Probably GP meant that nurture, not nature, is what creates bad people. That includes education, but also upbringing, household, etc.
Which I tend to agree with. Sociopaths due to genetic differences are, IMO, extremely rare as to be a non-factor. But childhood abuse and/or trauma is the biggest reason for people becoming violent, unsociable or generally evil.
SBF just seems like the stereotypical kid born in a very rich, connected family, that got every material need fulfilled, but lacked something crucial to develop a mature and critical understanding of how the world works. This is often seen in children of ultra millionaires, growing up completely divorced from reality and how other people live. I imagine people like him thinking "oh, fuck, so sorry I lost you a million dollars. My bad. You still have a few mil in stocks to tide you over until I get you your money back, right? Right? What do you mean your parents are also broke?"
Which I tend to agree with. Sociopaths due to genetic differences are, IMO, extremely rare as to be a non-factor. But childhood abuse and/or trauma is the biggest reason for people becoming violent, unsociable or generally evil.
SBF just seems like the stereotypical kid born in a very rich, connected family, that got every material need fulfilled, but lacked something crucial to develop a mature and critical understanding of how the world works. This is often seen in children of ultra millionaires, growing up completely divorced from reality and how other people live. I imagine people like him thinking "oh, fuck, so sorry I lost you a million dollars. My bad. You still have a few mil in stocks to tide you over until I get you your money back, right? Right? What do you mean your parents are also broke?"
Ultimately it is very hard, if not impossible, to know what is going on in households and what ultimately leads up to that outburst of rebellion or evil-doing. Looking back on my education up to college, I believe kids can be absolutely brutal to their peers(and often are), and when you're spending 8 hours a day in a pressure cooker for 10+ years, I can see how negative outcomes follow.
There is a lot of chaos in nature too though, and I think even with great childhood backgrounds there are some individuals that just want to go a different path, for better or for worse.
There is a lot of chaos in nature too though, and I think even with great childhood backgrounds there are some individuals that just want to go a different path, for better or for worse.
"that’s why we made two-step verification mandatory,"
Hopefully, you didn't use sms as 2steps :).
Hopefully, you didn't use sms as 2steps :).
Assuming Ring cameras are the problem in this is part of the issue. The big issue is keeping your account unsecured and basically granting some psychopath access to your home.
Am no defend-the-blue type of person but all of you claiming that the police turn up with excessive force for swatting need to educate yourself. Please watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IFPRyFW9F4
These swatters want the police to turn up and use deadly force. They use voice & call scramblers to call the police. The swatters tell the dispatchers that they are mentally unstable / psychotic and have already killed multiple family members and are ready to inflict more damage. Dispatchers have very little time / training to identify if this call is authentic. They just relay the information to the cops who turn up expecting to face a hail of bullets.
These swatters want the police to turn up and use deadly force. They use voice & call scramblers to call the police. The swatters tell the dispatchers that they are mentally unstable / psychotic and have already killed multiple family members and are ready to inflict more damage. Dispatchers have very little time / training to identify if this call is authentic. They just relay the information to the cops who turn up expecting to face a hail of bullets.
Honestly, showing up with a SWAT team as a first step suggests a certain lack of courage, particularly if the officers know how prevalent SWATting is.
Many American police are deeply committed to paramilitary cosplay and relish any opportunity to pull out their best toys.