Most Londoners would quit before they give up working from home(theregister.com)
theregister.com
Most Londoners would quit before they give up working from home
https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/15/wfh_pulled_quit_survey/
33 comments
Same in Greater Boston. Even before the pandemic, our transit system was chronically troubled in all sorts of ways--I don't want to get into the details here because it'll make me angry, you can read about them on Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Bay_Transportati...). I was already working 100% remote before I ever heard the word "coronavirus", and so were a lot of my friends, because the trains simply weren't reliable. To be sure of getting to the office on time, I had to allow literally twice the length of a normal commute free from trouble. Huge waste of time.
Chiming in from Los Angeles! Commutes are not sustainable.
Can't believe we used to do that for free.
Yeah, still not a fan of this. Sure, there's the 1% that identity as "introverted misanthropes" (sorry mouzogu), but what about the rest? I see a disconnected society where mental health get's a problem because routine, excercise, experiencing new things and stimulation, and socializing are missing because everybody is staying at home. We move away from a society that is able to check-in on each other (possibility, not necessarily happening!) to one, where you are replaceable, transactional human resource, using other humans transactionally as resouces (yoga video from youtube, doordash driver bringing you food, gorillas bringing you groceries). I'm really worried about our ability to socialize here.
The reality is, that work is the biggest chunk of time in our daily lives. Spending it without other humans sounds like a recipe for disaster.
PS: yes, we also have 100% remote people and people can do remote work whenever they want. But fun fact: I have no feeling nor connection towards those remote employees. And that's not a good thing.
The reality is, that work is the biggest chunk of time in our daily lives. Spending it without other humans sounds like a recipe for disaster.
PS: yes, we also have 100% remote people and people can do remote work whenever they want. But fun fact: I have no feeling nor connection towards those remote employees. And that's not a good thing.
Socializing at work is a fairy tale, and the pandemic made people realize it. The nature of employer/employee relation has always been lopsided and exploitative. Employees are not going back to having their salary/job geographically limited and wasting time commuting, and it’s making people like you who lost bargaining power mad.
I don’t think it’s wise monopolizing the truth, or labeling those with different opinions.
I have done a bit of all models, I have a personal life, yet I like going a few days a week to the office. I like my work, makes me productive, and the change of pace is appreciated. I do get in a bit later to skip the commute hassle.
If you feel your job relationship is described as exploitive and with people being mad, I would recommend you exercise your bargaining power and walk out to a different job.
I have done a bit of all models, I have a personal life, yet I like going a few days a week to the office. I like my work, makes me productive, and the change of pace is appreciated. I do get in a bit later to skip the commute hassle.
If you feel your job relationship is described as exploitive and with people being mad, I would recommend you exercise your bargaining power and walk out to a different job.
The office is exploitation? And who are "people like me"? You don't know me.
Now that I don't spend time commuting, I can exercise and participate more in my kids activities like scouts, sports, band, etc.
I have plenty of routine that includes leaving the house, it just doesn't include heading to the office that is near none of the other places I regularly go - it may as well be an island.
I'd hope spending more time with my family is better for the mental health of both me and my family.
I've worked with a fully remote team in India for 7 years now - some I've never met, others once and I have very strong relationships with them, not affected at all by being in different places.
I do think being in the office is better for the business, but the benefits to an employee from not being are far greater. Some people may have no life outside work, but I assume they are the minority - seems ridiculous to subject us all to a degraded quality of life because a few people don't know what to do with themselves.
I have plenty of routine that includes leaving the house, it just doesn't include heading to the office that is near none of the other places I regularly go - it may as well be an island.
I'd hope spending more time with my family is better for the mental health of both me and my family.
I've worked with a fully remote team in India for 7 years now - some I've never met, others once and I have very strong relationships with them, not affected at all by being in different places.
I do think being in the office is better for the business, but the benefits to an employee from not being are far greater. Some people may have no life outside work, but I assume they are the minority - seems ridiculous to subject us all to a degraded quality of life because a few people don't know what to do with themselves.
I would actually disagree a bit about the office part. It's quite expensive.
> Some people may have no life outside work, but I assume they are the minority - seems ridiculous to subject us all to a degraded quality of life because a few people don't know what to do with themselves.
Weird take to be honest. As I said, you spent a significant amount of time at work/working. My take is, that this should also be with people you like and in an environment where your needs can be met. Be it "I don't wanna talk to anybody" or "I wanna be in the office every day". Fun fact: at my location we all do both, depending on how we feel, how our evening plans look like etc.
> Some people may have no life outside work, but I assume they are the minority - seems ridiculous to subject us all to a degraded quality of life because a few people don't know what to do with themselves.
Weird take to be honest. As I said, you spent a significant amount of time at work/working. My take is, that this should also be with people you like and in an environment where your needs can be met. Be it "I don't wanna talk to anybody" or "I wanna be in the office every day". Fun fact: at my location we all do both, depending on how we feel, how our evening plans look like etc.
"where you are replaceable, transactional human resource, using other humans transactionally as resources"
So in your view, remote work is saying the quiet part out loud.
Great, now we can drop the charade. Except now, remote workers get some modicum of enjoyment from the transaction. At the expense of "culture", "where in this together", and "when you're here, you're family". (Do gorillas deliver Olive Garden?)
So in your view, remote work is saying the quiet part out loud.
Great, now we can drop the charade. Except now, remote workers get some modicum of enjoyment from the transaction. At the expense of "culture", "where in this together", and "when you're here, you're family". (Do gorillas deliver Olive Garden?)
You skipped the part about "I have a problem with the fact that a remote person doesn't feel as close to me as someone working in the same office a few days a week", pretty convenient huh? I take issue in treating people like human resources and replaceable, transactional things.
Gorillas is German and delivers groceries, so am I. So I guess a lot of this thread is due to shitty US culture. That's your problem, not mine.
Gorillas is German and delivers groceries, so am I. So I guess a lot of this thread is due to shitty US culture. That's your problem, not mine.
"I have no feeling nor connection towards those remote employees." Fun fact: You can engage with remote employees with the click of a button. Convenient indeed!
My point is that it's not the same. To be honest, as I see how you argument, I would just waste my time trying to argue for the case that digital and physical time are not the same and creating socializing opportunities like in the office is quite hard.
I've had troubles socializing and making meaningful connections even before WFH, just something I've been struggling with my whole life. WFH didn't change anything in that regard but at least I don't have to be forced into a weird artificial relationships anymore.
I think people with healthy EQ and socialization skills will be able to find meaningful connections one way or another. Sure, certain types of work cultures are going to die but they are going to be replaced by smth else. For example, people are big into sports and all sorts of outdoors activities where I live and tend to find a lot of friendships through gyms/clubs/hiking groups/competition teams, etc.
If you're like me though, office is just another torture and won't actually fix the problem. (Like decades of forced socialization at school and university didn't fix it for me).
I think people with healthy EQ and socialization skills will be able to find meaningful connections one way or another. Sure, certain types of work cultures are going to die but they are going to be replaced by smth else. For example, people are big into sports and all sorts of outdoors activities where I live and tend to find a lot of friendships through gyms/clubs/hiking groups/competition teams, etc.
If you're like me though, office is just another torture and won't actually fix the problem. (Like decades of forced socialization at school and university didn't fix it for me).
I won't spend too much time to reply as your account is fresh, but let me tell you this: we have 100% remote employees, I'm not talking about my company. I'm not talking about people that don't want to socialize. I'm talking about society as a whole, not the 1% or whatever.
> Spending it without other humans sounds like a recipe for disaster.
You mean spending it without YOU? Cause I do spend it with people. I get lunch with friends. I see my significant other and my cat. I don’t waste time commuting so I have more time for hobbies and family.
You mean spending it without YOU? Cause I do spend it with people. I get lunch with friends. I see my significant other and my cat. I don’t waste time commuting so I have more time for hobbies and family.
That's just a poor try at an attack on me and you didn't even try to understand my points. Good luck to you.
It's possible to have friends outside of work - I reckon for most people their closest friends are no their work friends.
We can socialise more with our actual friends.
We can socialise more with our actual friends.
I knew this argument would come haha! And realistically, how often do you do it? And how do you feel, having a day without any real social interaction? How about on a bigger scale? This can only be detrimental. How do you meet and make friends? How do you meet potential partners? The office always played a big role in that.
/edit: let me add, a big topic is disconnection, how dating apps destroy dating, how we don't have enough friends, how mental health deteriorates due to apps and lacking social skills. and then we want to stop going to a social outlet and stay home all day? seems obvious to me that this development is really a big problem.
/edit: let me add, a big topic is disconnection, how dating apps destroy dating, how we don't have enough friends, how mental health deteriorates due to apps and lacking social skills. and then we want to stop going to a social outlet and stay home all day? seems obvious to me that this development is really a big problem.
> How do you meet and make friends?
It's impossible to make friends in London tube, almost impossible but rarely doable on regular bus routes, but definitely not at peak hours. Nobody misses commuting in London.
> How do you meet potential partners? The office always played a big role in that.
Let's not pretend, under the currently propagated safe space policies you can get fired and accused of abuse the next day after your timid demonstration of romantic sympathy towards someone at your workplace.
It's impossible to make friends in London tube, almost impossible but rarely doable on regular bus routes, but definitely not at peak hours. Nobody misses commuting in London.
> How do you meet potential partners? The office always played a big role in that.
Let's not pretend, under the currently propagated safe space policies you can get fired and accused of abuse the next day after your timid demonstration of romantic sympathy towards someone at your workplace.
That’s extremely rare unless there’s a power differential. And even then, most places have proper HR declarations which protect all parties.
Is there a power differential between a junior engineer and a senior engineer? If you say yes, then I don't understand the original proposition here: are you only allowed to "appropriately" socialise and find partners at your workplace (as suggested by the OP) among the same rank individuals as yourself?
I was talking more about coworkers, not the commute. But still, I even have the feeling that commuting shows me different faces every day. That's not quality interaction, but social interaction after all.
> Let's not pretend, under the currently propagated safe space policies you can get fired and accused of abuse the next day after your timid demonstration of romantic sympathy towards someone at your workplace.
I never had any contacts with workplaces like that and I encourage you to either check if your behaviour might indeed be inappropriate or switch workplaces. Sure, you have to make sure everybody feels safe as a company. But if you're not a creep, relationships develop automatically.
> Let's not pretend, under the currently propagated safe space policies you can get fired and accused of abuse the next day after your timid demonstration of romantic sympathy towards someone at your workplace.
I never had any contacts with workplaces like that and I encourage you to either check if your behaviour might indeed be inappropriate or switch workplaces. Sure, you have to make sure everybody feels safe as a company. But if you're not a creep, relationships develop automatically.
> I encourage you to either check if your behaviour might indeed be inappropriate or switch workplaces.
Inappropriate according to what standard? See, that's the problem with your social interactions at a workplace: you assume everone is following and is in agreement with the modern western ideas about "proper" social interactions at office. One step beyond the invisible line of your assumptions due to our potential cultural differences, and I find myself having a talk with HR. What for? I'd rather stay at home and work in exchange for money and make it purely transactional, and then socialise with the people who won't punish me reputationally and financially for our cultural differences.
Inappropriate according to what standard? See, that's the problem with your social interactions at a workplace: you assume everone is following and is in agreement with the modern western ideas about "proper" social interactions at office. One step beyond the invisible line of your assumptions due to our potential cultural differences, and I find myself having a talk with HR. What for? I'd rather stay at home and work in exchange for money and make it purely transactional, and then socialise with the people who won't punish me reputationally and financially for our cultural differences.
Try making friends outside of work when you get older. It's hard. Really hard. It takes on average 200 hours of interaction for people to become "good friends". As an introverted, very private person, I would say that's an order of magnitude too low. They closed our office and our entire department is WFH. Some people have left for conventional office jobs, but some of us have thrived in the zoom/teams culture. I'd rather quit than go back to the office, personally. Though I understand it's not for everyone.
> what about the rest?
I'm not an introverted misanthrope, I like to combine times of very deep work and reflection and social interaction. Office environments offer plenty of the latter, and very little of the former, so WFH suits a lot of us average people who love to do at least a part of deep intellectual work.
> mental health get's a problem because routine, excercise, experiencing new things and stimulation, and socializing are missing because everybody is staying at home
1. All kinds of mental health issues were shooting up before the pandemic
2. I see the exercise thing repeated by all proponents of working in offices. It completely befuddles me... I go to crossfit 4x a week and golf 3-4x a week, going to the office would only get in the way of this. There are no two ways about this: you have severe imagination, discipline, or motivation problems if the only thing making you move your ass is going to a physical office.
3. I don't know what kind of office you go to "experience new things", but I worked in a large video games company where the culture was dope and we'd play Mario Kart after lunch, and "new things" faded as quickly as anything else. I think this applies to pretty much any office setting.
4. I physically interact with people at crossfit and golf, with my family and friends, and with small business owners (ex: my coffee dude) every day... Again, if your idea of WFH is not talking to anyone for days on end, there may be a conceptualization problem here.
> you are replaceable, transactional human resource
You think the shareholders ever cared whether you go to the office, other than how it affects their EPS? I'll grant that being in an office could make a marginal difference in a round of layoffs if you're particularly ingratiated with some superiors thanks to regular physical interaction, but other than that, we were all just numbers well before WFH.
> I'm really worried about our ability to socialize here.
You should possibly have more faith in the agency of human beings.
> But fun fact: I have no feeling nor connection towards those remote employees.
I employ remote people in my business, from Colombia to Ukraine. I care about them. I empathize if they tell me they have a problem. I otherwise meet customers, potential partners, and all kinds of people through video chat every week. As with anything, the mileage varies: some people leave me indifferent, some people I really connect with, a few irk me.
But if you have no feelings whatsoever towards any people you work with remotely, I don't know what to tell you.
I'm not an introverted misanthrope, I like to combine times of very deep work and reflection and social interaction. Office environments offer plenty of the latter, and very little of the former, so WFH suits a lot of us average people who love to do at least a part of deep intellectual work.
> mental health get's a problem because routine, excercise, experiencing new things and stimulation, and socializing are missing because everybody is staying at home
1. All kinds of mental health issues were shooting up before the pandemic
2. I see the exercise thing repeated by all proponents of working in offices. It completely befuddles me... I go to crossfit 4x a week and golf 3-4x a week, going to the office would only get in the way of this. There are no two ways about this: you have severe imagination, discipline, or motivation problems if the only thing making you move your ass is going to a physical office.
3. I don't know what kind of office you go to "experience new things", but I worked in a large video games company where the culture was dope and we'd play Mario Kart after lunch, and "new things" faded as quickly as anything else. I think this applies to pretty much any office setting.
4. I physically interact with people at crossfit and golf, with my family and friends, and with small business owners (ex: my coffee dude) every day... Again, if your idea of WFH is not talking to anyone for days on end, there may be a conceptualization problem here.
> you are replaceable, transactional human resource
You think the shareholders ever cared whether you go to the office, other than how it affects their EPS? I'll grant that being in an office could make a marginal difference in a round of layoffs if you're particularly ingratiated with some superiors thanks to regular physical interaction, but other than that, we were all just numbers well before WFH.
> I'm really worried about our ability to socialize here.
You should possibly have more faith in the agency of human beings.
> But fun fact: I have no feeling nor connection towards those remote employees.
I employ remote people in my business, from Colombia to Ukraine. I care about them. I empathize if they tell me they have a problem. I otherwise meet customers, potential partners, and all kinds of people through video chat every week. As with anything, the mileage varies: some people leave me indifferent, some people I really connect with, a few irk me.
But if you have no feelings whatsoever towards any people you work with remotely, I don't know what to tell you.
> Office environments offer plenty of the latter, and very little of the former
I would say if that's the case, you need to work on your office culture ;)
> 1. All kinds of mental health issues were shooting up before the pandemic
And the pandemic made it worse.
> 2. I see the exercise thing repeated by all proponents of working in offices
I meant activity. Steps in a day. Your way to the office. Walking around in the office.
> 3. I don't know what kind of office you go to "experience new things"
I was thinking of the commute. But yeah, you also get in touch with new stimulation as the office is a socialization hub. What stimulation do you have at home? Hackernews?
> if your idea of WFH is not talking to anyone for days on end, there may be a conceptualization problem here.
That's the danger I'm seeing here, yes. I don't know why you or almost everybody can't follow my thinking here, maybe bad phrasing (plus English is not my first language). I'm not talking about the people where this model fits. I'm not talking about people like you who can make it work. I'm talking about the rest. We all read the articles here on HN about rising loneliness, tech bro bubbles from people living at home 100%, ordering food, working out on their peleton etc. That's the persona I'm talking about.
> You think the shareholders ever cared whether you go to the office, other than how it affects their EPS?
I am a shareholder and I do care more about the people than any metric as long as the business is running. (Don't even get me started that there's enough evidence that treating your employees like humans and not like capital also could improve business metrics.)
> You should possibly have more faith in the agency of human beings.
I think you're missing the point here. If you really run a remote company you should know how hard it is. And if you're being honest with yourself, visiting the guys in Colombia or Ukraine would do much more for your relationship with them than anything digital. That's my experience as well, as I also have colleagues in Georgia, Ukraine and so on. And every time I visited them, took them out to a pub or whatever, they were happy and were raving about my visit for months after, because they felt appreciated. I got a better picture of who they are by eating with them in restaurants, driving around the city with them, drinking beers with them. It gave me a better feeling of who they really are. Nothing digital, in my experience, comes even close to that. And I think science is on my side here. There's so much more than seeing an image and hearing a voice to human interaction. Smell, hormones, stance etc.
> But if you have no feelings whatsoever towards any people you work with remotely, I don't know what to tell you.
Obviously I do. I shouldn't have phrased it so black and white.
In any case, good luck to you and hope your guys in UA are doing ok! I'm really looking forward to visit Ukraine as soon as possible!
I would say if that's the case, you need to work on your office culture ;)
> 1. All kinds of mental health issues were shooting up before the pandemic
And the pandemic made it worse.
> 2. I see the exercise thing repeated by all proponents of working in offices
I meant activity. Steps in a day. Your way to the office. Walking around in the office.
> 3. I don't know what kind of office you go to "experience new things"
I was thinking of the commute. But yeah, you also get in touch with new stimulation as the office is a socialization hub. What stimulation do you have at home? Hackernews?
> if your idea of WFH is not talking to anyone for days on end, there may be a conceptualization problem here.
That's the danger I'm seeing here, yes. I don't know why you or almost everybody can't follow my thinking here, maybe bad phrasing (plus English is not my first language). I'm not talking about the people where this model fits. I'm not talking about people like you who can make it work. I'm talking about the rest. We all read the articles here on HN about rising loneliness, tech bro bubbles from people living at home 100%, ordering food, working out on their peleton etc. That's the persona I'm talking about.
> You think the shareholders ever cared whether you go to the office, other than how it affects their EPS?
I am a shareholder and I do care more about the people than any metric as long as the business is running. (Don't even get me started that there's enough evidence that treating your employees like humans and not like capital also could improve business metrics.)
> You should possibly have more faith in the agency of human beings.
I think you're missing the point here. If you really run a remote company you should know how hard it is. And if you're being honest with yourself, visiting the guys in Colombia or Ukraine would do much more for your relationship with them than anything digital. That's my experience as well, as I also have colleagues in Georgia, Ukraine and so on. And every time I visited them, took them out to a pub or whatever, they were happy and were raving about my visit for months after, because they felt appreciated. I got a better picture of who they are by eating with them in restaurants, driving around the city with them, drinking beers with them. It gave me a better feeling of who they really are. Nothing digital, in my experience, comes even close to that. And I think science is on my side here. There's so much more than seeing an image and hearing a voice to human interaction. Smell, hormones, stance etc.
> But if you have no feelings whatsoever towards any people you work with remotely, I don't know what to tell you.
Obviously I do. I shouldn't have phrased it so black and white.
In any case, good luck to you and hope your guys in UA are doing ok! I'm really looking forward to visit Ukraine as soon as possible!
as an introverted misanthrope, working from home is the greatest thing to happen to me in my working life.
i feel that the quiet quitting stuff was preparing the groundwork for all the layoffs and then enforcing RTO.
we had 3 days, but i got it to 2. still not happy but what can i do, job market is worst i can ever remember it being in my 15 years.
i feel that the quiet quitting stuff was preparing the groundwork for all the layoffs and then enforcing RTO.
we had 3 days, but i got it to 2. still not happy but what can i do, job market is worst i can ever remember it being in my 15 years.
I reckon most people WFH around London are in comfortable but not exciting/high-earning positions. Expensive housing/transport demands higher wages and challenging work.
I pay for my own co-working space now (I need to work around people) but would definitely have higher salary expectations if someone made me go to Canary Wharf every day. That commute was hell.
I'd do it for a 50% pay increase, however.
I pay for my own co-working space now (I need to work around people) but would definitely have higher salary expectations if someone made me go to Canary Wharf every day. That commute was hell.
I'd do it for a 50% pay increase, however.
I think people in the United States would feel more comfortable saying something similar if the US had a better work culture.
I am not a Londoner, but that’s my view too. My employer is currently trying this “we won’t fire you but we’ll annoy you till you quit if you don’t come to the office” game, but luckily I have alternate full-WFH offers on my desk ready to sign. Joke’s on them.
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Not only that, but the season tickets are regulated and cheaper than just buying a ticket every day, but there's no "3 day a week" option. So if they ask you to come in 3 days a week it's often as expensive or more expensive than buying the full time season ticket.
Oh but there's even better news, because of the pandemic and remote work the number of commuters is massively down, this would be great! Nice quiet trains, get a seat on the train into work every day! No, no, no. What we're going to do instead is change the timetable so that even fewer trains run so that commute you're paying thousands of pounds for? You'll be doing that standing up in a sweaty carriage packed in with a hundred other people if you're lucky enough to get on the train.
But it gets better! Because they're running fewer trains they need fewer staff, so they're "negotiating" with the rail unions. The result is that between december and mid-january I managed exactly 0 days in the office. That's right, there's not a single day that I needed to go into the office that the trains were running because the staff were on strike.
The truth is that there's a side of this equation that isn't really discussed as much as it should be. Yes, people started working from home during the pandemic, but actually, commuting to London has become very significantly worse since the pandemic for a lot of people, and the UK economy is going to continue to suffer as a result.