Dutch journalist who writes critically on China targeted in intimidation scheme(nltimes.nl)
nltimes.nl
Dutch journalist who writes critically on China targeted in intimidation scheme
https://nltimes.nl/2023/04/08/dutch-journalist-writes-critically-china-targeted-bizarre-intimidation-scheme
123 comments
Absolutely not gonna happen: the current Dutch govt. ideologically refuses to be the best (often even "good") at anything.
What is this based on?
Long line of fuckups without correction/ownership by the currently seated
I was referencing (very implictely) the current seated PM saying that The Netherlands "doesn't have to be the best kid in class", with the EU being the class, and then proceeding by aiming for being the worst.
> China has also been accused of illegally operating secret police stations in Amsterdam
I had to read that a few times because it just sounded nonsensical. What where the repercussions for Chinese govt. for that action? It there weren’t any except strong worded “we seek explanation” requests, the Chinese will just double down on attacks. Bullies see weak responses as an invitation for more bullying.
I had to read that a few times because it just sounded nonsensical. What where the repercussions for Chinese govt. for that action? It there weren’t any except strong worded “we seek explanation” requests, the Chinese will just double down on attacks. Bullies see weak responses as an invitation for more bullying.
It unfortunately is not only nonsensical but also true and it is one of the worst violations of Dutch territorial integrity in a very long time. The whole idea that some far away country would subject its citizens here to their laws makes absolutely no sense and has no doubt interfered with many police cases over the years.
What is really mind blowing is that the Chinese society in NL is so closed off from the rest of the country that word of this did not reach the authorities for many years. And what it says to me is that if this could happen in Amsterdam, 300 meters away from a Dutch police station that it likely can happen anywhere in the world and that I would not be surprised at all if more of these turned up if people actively went looking for them.
What is really mind blowing is that the Chinese society in NL is so closed off from the rest of the country that word of this did not reach the authorities for many years. And what it says to me is that if this could happen in Amsterdam, 300 meters away from a Dutch police station that it likely can happen anywhere in the world and that I would not be surprised at all if more of these turned up if people actively went looking for them.
There were 2 in Czech republic, Prague. https://www.irozhlas.cz/zpravy-domov/cinske-policejni-stanic...
There's one in Sydney, and apparently about 80 in total around the world:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-13/beijing-sets-up-overs...
So, what's being done about them?
Nothing particularly concrete. What do you expect can be done?
Kick out any Chinese that take part in these police stations on the side of the authorities.
Yes, that. But first raid the place, with no notice, in overwhelming force, and seize all the papers.
what if they have permanent residence permit or more?
Treat them as spy. What are sedition laws are for?
A fair trial and (if there is evidence) a long time in jail.
Countries should enforce their sovereignty and write laws to make external countries unable to influence their citizens
The dutch ambassador in China sent to the Chinese government a weeechat message: "not cool :/". That should do it.
In all honesty, I don't think the Dutch (or Canadian or else) governments will really care since these are "ethnic Chinese" citizens. It's not their business. The image of dutch sovereignty has only to stand to the eye of its very "own" citizens and even so.
The only world power that is standing to that is the USA. And that's not because they care about these particular persons but because they are currently engaged in a feud with China.
In all honesty, I don't think the Dutch (or Canadian or else) governments will really care since these are "ethnic Chinese" citizens. It's not their business. The image of dutch sovereignty has only to stand to the eye of its very "own" citizens and even so.
The only world power that is standing to that is the USA. And that's not because they care about these particular persons but because they are currently engaged in a feud with China.
This was in the news a while back, they're all over the place. https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/04/world/china-overseas-police-s...
It has been happening anywhere in the world, there have been reports from several countries of this. Including close neighbors of the Netherlands, such as Germany.
They’re in Canada too. Lots.
eternalban(1)
>far away country would subject its citizens here to their laws
...
>word of this did not reach the authorities for many years
The entire PRC "overseas Chinese service stations" are AKTUALLY ILLEGAL POLICE STATIONS VIOLATING TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY/SOVEREIGNTY is new propaganda framing to sell United Front threat. State intelligence in the west has known about United Front activities, from their actual (predominant) legitimate diaspora services to their grayscale tactics to "coerce" Chinese diaspora - some dissidents, most financial criminals - to return to PRC on their own accord for 10+ years. Dissidents have been whining about UF for even longer. Like no one's being illegally renditioned, they're being told of personal and extended consequences in PRC if they don't return and face justice. That kind of conversation is legal statecraft, and TBH a workable arrangement between PRC and the west who has no extradition treaty with (due to politics/optics) while actually shelters a fuckton of PRC criminals who should have the book thrown at them in PRC.
It makes perfect sense that ex/PRC nationals who committed crimes in PRC should be subject to PRC laws. That's why countries have extradition treatises, because it's bad form to shelter criminals across borders and expect smooth diplomatic relations. The funny side effect of PRC capital controls is that virtually every PRC ex-national with a decent amount of assets abroad didn't get it there legally. The West wants PRC diaspora wealth, knows it's misbegotten, and can't survive politics of formal extraditing to PRC, so we have this informal shenanigans.
...
>word of this did not reach the authorities for many years
The entire PRC "overseas Chinese service stations" are AKTUALLY ILLEGAL POLICE STATIONS VIOLATING TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY/SOVEREIGNTY is new propaganda framing to sell United Front threat. State intelligence in the west has known about United Front activities, from their actual (predominant) legitimate diaspora services to their grayscale tactics to "coerce" Chinese diaspora - some dissidents, most financial criminals - to return to PRC on their own accord for 10+ years. Dissidents have been whining about UF for even longer. Like no one's being illegally renditioned, they're being told of personal and extended consequences in PRC if they don't return and face justice. That kind of conversation is legal statecraft, and TBH a workable arrangement between PRC and the west who has no extradition treaty with (due to politics/optics) while actually shelters a fuckton of PRC criminals who should have the book thrown at them in PRC.
It makes perfect sense that ex/PRC nationals who committed crimes in PRC should be subject to PRC laws. That's why countries have extradition treatises, because it's bad form to shelter criminals across borders and expect smooth diplomatic relations. The funny side effect of PRC capital controls is that virtually every PRC ex-national with a decent amount of assets abroad didn't get it there legally. The West wants PRC diaspora wealth, knows it's misbegotten, and can't survive politics of formal extraditing to PRC, so we have this informal shenanigans.
Then they can make a regular extradition request. That's not what these police stations are used for, they are arms of the CCP into the Chinese communities in other countries, they are used for rendition and intimidation. They are incompatible with our legal system and should not exist.
To be fair Netherlands and many western countries don't have (yet anyway...) extradition treaties with China due to perfectly obvious reasons.
There doesn't have to be a treaty for you to make a request. You can then (1) see your request honored because in spite of the absence of a treaty there are good enough reasons to extradite or (2) be told to fuck off. A bit more politely than that of course.
Typically whenever there are diplomatic relationships extradition requests can be made and these are honored if there is reciprocity and there is sufficient evidence that the request to be have been made in good faith.
Typically whenever there are diplomatic relationships extradition requests can be made and these are honored if there is reciprocity and there is sufficient evidence that the request to be have been made in good faith.
This is assuming PRC hasn't made formal requests - been asking for extradition rights / treaties since mid 2000s (before Xi) to host of western countries where big grafters were fleeing. And been given the cold shoulder. Naive to believe polite or none polite fuck off is end of story to west harbouring PRC criminals consquence free, leading to these grayzone methods. "Typical" is reserved for "like minded" relationships, reality is it is political suicide in west to send even criminals to PRC, hence it won't happen no better how sufficient the evidence and faith.
It is a good lesson for 1 person, or a whole government: when you look around you and the entire world are assholes it is time to look in the mirror and ask, "Am I the asshole?"
If no one will make deals to help your government then maybe you need a new one.
If no one will make deals to help your government then maybe you need a new one.
Countries are not people. Your worldview becomes more shifted from reality and full of holes the more you think of an entire country as one person.
True, government is an ecosystem. If you kill the sparrow but spare the locust you may do more harm than good.
There's no extradition treaty. Nor are there any illegal renditions. If there were then media wouldn't be screeching over nonsense "intimiation" angle, because person of interest would just get nabbed and it actually be a massive sovereignty violation / diplomatic incident. And it's generally completely compatible with western legal systems, that's how they've operated for so long with awareness from western govs / security. United Front agents passing a note that if person doesn't return to PRC to face justice out of their own acccord is just having a "conversation", frequently delivered by other naturalized citizens. The reason there's so much reeeing about this in western reporting is that there's nothing functionally inappropriate about what PRC is doing since it's just words and actual consquences are happening on PRC soil.
It's a bit of a stretch to go from 'intimidiation' to 'extralegal rendition'. Though to be fair there is some evidence that these 'police stations' were used to get people critical of the party to go back 'home' by applying undue pressure. And that's one more reason why they should be shut down.
> there's nothing functionally inappropriate about what PRC is doing
That's your opinion.
> there's nothing functionally inappropriate about what PRC is doing
That's your opinion.
I'm just clarifying your assertion that these stations:
> are used for rendition
There's no extradition agreement between PRC and NE hence rendition could only be extralegal/extraordinary, which these stations are not doing. That's borderline declaration of war territory. I'm not suggesting these stations are not also used to "pressure" / coerce people to return - they explictly are - but my point is in terms of functionally appropriate is there's nothing wrong about informing people about consequences on PRC soil if they don't voluntarily return. I don't see how "free" societies can enforce, in this case dutch nationals (again a lot of these stations are staffed by nationals) telling other dutch nationals about "implications" on PRC soil. That's as tame as it gets in terms of permissible foreign influence.
> are used for rendition
There's no extradition agreement between PRC and NE hence rendition could only be extralegal/extraordinary, which these stations are not doing. That's borderline declaration of war territory. I'm not suggesting these stations are not also used to "pressure" / coerce people to return - they explictly are - but my point is in terms of functionally appropriate is there's nothing wrong about informing people about consequences on PRC soil if they don't voluntarily return. I don't see how "free" societies can enforce, in this case dutch nationals (again a lot of these stations are staffed by nationals) telling other dutch nationals about "implications" on PRC soil. That's as tame as it gets in terms of permissible foreign influence.
intimidation and harrasment is a crime in many jurisdictions.
the only unique thing here is that we are talking about a state actor vs the traditional style organized mafia intimidation, vito corleone style.
the only unique thing here is that we are talking about a state actor vs the traditional style organized mafia intimidation, vito corleone style.
Even if they have an extradition treaty it only apply to crimes which are actually crimes in both countries. So most political "criminals" couldn't be extradited anyway...
> diaspora wealth, knows it's misbegotten, and can't survive politics of formal extraditing
So prosecute them for any crimes they committed in your country? I mean the Chinese government is thoroughly corrupt so the fact the they want to arrest certain people and not others is not a great indicator on which wealth is "misbegotten"...
> told of personal and extended consequences
Right.. like how much their families will suffer it they won't return. The Soviets were using the same tactic on political dissidents to shut them up,
> capital controls is that virtually every PRC ex-national with a decent amount of assets abroad didn't get it there legally
Safeguarding the capital control laws of the PRC should be something anyone cares about why exactly?
> diaspora wealth, knows it's misbegotten, and can't survive politics of formal extraditing
So prosecute them for any crimes they committed in your country? I mean the Chinese government is thoroughly corrupt so the fact the they want to arrest certain people and not others is not a great indicator on which wealth is "misbegotten"...
> told of personal and extended consequences
Right.. like how much their families will suffer it they won't return. The Soviets were using the same tactic on political dissidents to shut them up,
> capital controls is that virtually every PRC ex-national with a decent amount of assets abroad didn't get it there legally
Safeguarding the capital control laws of the PRC should be something anyone cares about why exactly?
Dissidents no, but in terms of financial crime PRC pressure / focus largely on 10s of millions to billion tier, the obviously misbegotten gains that western court system would look retarded to pretend otherwise. Millions of PRC diasphora in the west, are we going to pretend they're all upstanding. PRC isn't generally wasting time on petty graft, and even then optics of cooperating with PRC is none starter. And when did I say other countries care about safeguarding PRC laws, clearly they don't because they benefit from it, including hosting dissidents who get weaponized for anti-PRC campaigns. Hence PRC resorts to grayzone methods like threatening consequences on PRC soil, which is valid tactic calibrated to not actually cross sovereignty lines in host country. There's likely a reason there's so many "investigations" into these sensational "police stations" while so few have actually been shut down. Meanwhile we don't hear about mass PRC agents being deported because most of the messengers are actually citizens who has right to act as intermediaries to activities that doesn't trip up on foreign agent politics.
> focus largely on 10s of millions to billion tier, the obviously misbegotten gains that western court system would look retarded to pretend otherwise
Well yes, but they are only after the misbegotten gains of the people who currently don't have the favor of the party/Winnie-the-Pooh. So either western countries have to become tools for the Chinese "judicial system" or they have to start investigating these alleged crimes themselves to determine which are legit and which are political motivated (problem is that most are probably both...).
Neither seems like a great option...
Besides this I mostly agree on your take on this whole situation overall though.
Well yes, but they are only after the misbegotten gains of the people who currently don't have the favor of the party/Winnie-the-Pooh. So either western countries have to become tools for the Chinese "judicial system" or they have to start investigating these alleged crimes themselves to determine which are legit and which are political motivated (problem is that most are probably both...).
Neither seems like a great option...
Besides this I mostly agree on your take on this whole situation overall though.
>don't have the favor of the party/Winnie-the-Pooh
Operation Foxhunt criminals being harboured in west should get a pass just to stick it to CCP/Xi is pretty much why Guo Wengui happened. Let a known criminal swindle billion+ in US instead of working out deal to hand him to CCP after years of petitioning because... I don't even know. Ultimately extraditing even criminals to PRC too much of political shitshow in west, especially under current environment.
Operation Foxhunt criminals being harboured in west should get a pass just to stick it to CCP/Xi is pretty much why Guo Wengui happened. Let a known criminal swindle billion+ in US instead of working out deal to hand him to CCP after years of petitioning because... I don't even know. Ultimately extraditing even criminals to PRC too much of political shitshow in west, especially under current environment.
Canada too has secret Chinese police stations https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/china-secret-police-stations-a...
I'll go out on a limb and bet there are everywhere.
I'll go out on a limb and bet there are everywhere.
Here, there, everywhere. Maybe even on your local city council:
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2023/03/11/accused-of-be...
Also this: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/china-denies-role-in-...
And those are just a couple of stories that blew up. There's countless others being underreported.
Also this: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/china-denies-role-in-...
And those are just a couple of stories that blew up. There's countless others being underreported.
> "we seek explanation” requests
A big portion of diplomacy is signalling what a country is aware of, how it feels about the transgression, and consequences it claims it'll implement if nothing changes.
The intent of grey actions is that they're arguably legal.
And the intent of response to same is to make whoever runs the program reevaluate the costs of doing so and voluntarily close up the operation.
Ergo, the response is calibrated instead of just dropping the hammer immediately every time.
If nothing happens... then eventually you get police raids.
A big portion of diplomacy is signalling what a country is aware of, how it feels about the transgression, and consequences it claims it'll implement if nothing changes.
The intent of grey actions is that they're arguably legal.
And the intent of response to same is to make whoever runs the program reevaluate the costs of doing so and voluntarily close up the operation.
Ergo, the response is calibrated instead of just dropping the hammer immediately every time.
If nothing happens... then eventually you get police raids.
According to Safeguard Defenders, China has this kind of operations in many other countries too.
https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/110-overseas
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63395617
https://safeguarddefenders.com/en/110-overseas
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63395617
Wow. The article claims 54 centers across 21 countries in 5 continents.
There's nowhere to hide if you're a Chinese dissident, it seems...
There's nowhere to hide if you're a Chinese dissident, it seems...
It's not particularly fair to single out the Nerherlands here. These operations seem to be more or less allowed to continue in the US and Canada as well. The dutch don't have nearly the standing that America has.
[deleted]
tjpnz pointed out how poorly the NZ government has done when an academic her was targeting by China.
In another parallel, China has reportedly been operating a police station here too.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/report-of-china-run-p...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/report-of-china-run-p...
It sounds nonsensical because it is: they're not police stations.
Kind of reminds me of Operation Freakout [1]. Every system of government has weak spots that can be exploited by powerful enough adversaries to intimidate and suppress. I suspect that this is only going to get worse as long as authoritarian regimes are allowed to grow unchecked.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Freakout
My company warned all the employees not to make any anti CCP statements. Companies only mind profits, no ethics/morals.
If this is your throwaway, you could say the name of your company...
Sounds like something Apple could do.
It's something any large company with a presence in China could do and many others besides as well.
[deleted]
my_city(7)
I'm in a way surprised that the Netherlands still have such open relation with China after the soying and now intimidating journalists.
Will it really take until a politician (not local) in parliament gets spied / threaten until action is taken?
Will it really take until a politician (not local) in parliament gets spied / threaten until action is taken?
Russian militias with Russian military hardware shot down a plane which had 192 Netherlands people on board and there was no response from Netherlands, besides a 8 year long "legal action" which issued arrest warrants.
At minimum they should have sent a squad for the commander who ordered the firing and who is a big social media star today on Russian Telegram.
At minimum they should have sent a squad for the commander who ordered the firing and who is a big social media star today on Russian Telegram.
Yes, I'm sure starting a war was exactly what was needed at the time. The question really is if we had done that - and there were plenty of voices calling for just that - if the Ukraine situation would have improved or gotten worse. You could make pretty strong arguments either way.
There was no need for war to send a message. Taking tailored action against the SAM crew, leadership, associates and families would be sufficient and may have been happening already. Ukraine is orthogonal to the issue.
I'm pretty sure Russia would have absolutely loved such a pretext.
If Russia wanted a pretext to start a war with NATO, they would have invented one already by now.
> leadership
Including Putin? How would this work?
Including Putin? How would this work?
I am really surprised that the western governments still talk about how the free trade will somehow magically turn the CCP into a democratic government with a serious face.
The reality is that they are extremely afraid that the flow of cheap goods from china to the population will stop I think.
The reality is that they are extremely afraid that the flow of cheap goods from china to the population will stop I think.
"Free trade" with China ended many years ago.
Just look what they did with Huawei in pretense of security.
If that's free trade - then I'm Santa Klaus
If that's free trade - then I'm Santa Klaus
Well yeah, if you have firmware access on a device you can use it to intercept. That’s basic infosec.
That’s a very different matter from the CCP stealing IP or even entire companies.
That’s a very different matter from the CCP stealing IP or even entire companies.
I think "Stealing IP" phase finished for China a long time ago. Like for Japan of 70s
I can speak only from my experience.
In 2000s we heard that Huawei GSM is copycat of Erricson and Huawei CDMA is Qualcomm.
I had very limited experience with both GSM and CDMA switches - I saw nothing similar.
I can't say for sure about CDMA but Huawei GSM was certainly different from Erricson switches I saw
I can speak only from my experience.
In 2000s we heard that Huawei GSM is copycat of Erricson and Huawei CDMA is Qualcomm.
I had very limited experience with both GSM and CDMA switches - I saw nothing similar.
I can't say for sure about CDMA but Huawei GSM was certainly different from Erricson switches I saw
> I think "Stealing IP" phase finished for China a long time ago.
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2023/04/05/...
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2023/04/05/...
Camera footage helps both your examples a fair bit.
It doesn't necessarily seem as though the Chinese government is behind this.
Look at what actually happened: Somebody called in a bomb threat under her name, and somebody made some fake reservations under that name at a hotel near the location they were "threatening."
...That's the sort of thing a bored teenager on 4Chan or KiwiFarms would do, without even breaking a sweat. There's nothing in the article to suggest that the Chinese government is behind this; their only action was to report the bomb threat as though it was credible. The threat itself probably came from some terminally-online, but patriotic, expat Chinese ne'er-do-well.
Look at what actually happened: Somebody called in a bomb threat under her name, and somebody made some fake reservations under that name at a hotel near the location they were "threatening."
...That's the sort of thing a bored teenager on 4Chan or KiwiFarms would do, without even breaking a sweat. There's nothing in the article to suggest that the Chinese government is behind this; their only action was to report the bomb threat as though it was credible. The threat itself probably came from some terminally-online, but patriotic, expat Chinese ne'er-do-well.
Actually you may be right. There are many instances, like SerpentZA's parents being harassed in their home country (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-i-hung-up-on-warre...) or student from Hong Kong being doxxed and harassed in US (https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2019/05/28/frances-hu...) that are obviously done by people sympathizing with CCP but without an obvious direct participation of Chinese government. Although keep in mind that if they are doing this it is a consequence of their government's policy encouraging this behavior.
Yeah, important distinction from a government perspective. It's not the ccp, it's only the hyper nationalist zealots created by the ccp.
> That's the sort of thing a bored teenager on 4Chan or KiwiFarms would do
Are Chinese operators sophisticated enough to encourage people on 4chan/kiwifarms to do the dirty work for them?
4chan is probably an unreliable gun to trigger, but the random effects when triggered could be useful if you want to cause grief to a target.
Are Chinese operators sophisticated enough to encourage people on 4chan/kiwifarms to do the dirty work for them?
4chan is probably an unreliable gun to trigger, but the random effects when triggered could be useful if you want to cause grief to a target.
They have their own versions. This is old, but illustrates the problem:
https://thechinaproject.com/2019/11/01/inside-chinas-recentl...
Needless to say, that type of online community is virtually impossible to shut down. Shutter one site, and another will pop up. China is not at all unique in that regard: Even though it was hit with unusual and really quite severe measures in an effort to take it offline, The Daily Stormer is still going strong.
Any bored teenager with a text-to-speech app and a stolen or prepaid credit card could have pulled off the stunt mentioned in OP.
https://thechinaproject.com/2019/11/01/inside-chinas-recentl...
Needless to say, that type of online community is virtually impossible to shut down. Shutter one site, and another will pop up. China is not at all unique in that regard: Even though it was hit with unusual and really quite severe measures in an effort to take it offline, The Daily Stormer is still going strong.
Any bored teenager with a text-to-speech app and a stolen or prepaid credit card could have pulled off the stunt mentioned in OP.
[deleted]
I just finished The Prince podcast. Pretty good. I learned quite a bit. The later episodes cover how the CCP deals with criticism.
The Prince: Searching for Xi Jinping
"Xi Jinping is the most powerful person in the world. At China’s 20th Communist Party congress in October he secured a third term as party chief, and may rule China for the rest of his life.
But the real story of China’s leader remains a mystery. The Economist’s Sue-Lin Wong finds out how he rose to the top in our eight-part podcast series. The Prince is the epic story of Mr Xi’s turbulent past, how he has changed China and how he is trying to change the world."
https://www.economist.com/theprincepod
--
This podcast is worthy enough to overcome my distain for The Economist. (I canceled my subscription over their endorsement for the Iraq War.)
It's not quite as over produced as the Radiolab genre. The signal is discernible from the noise without excess effort.
I'm liking the followup Drum Tower podcast so far. But it's too soon to cast judgement.
The Prince: Searching for Xi Jinping
"Xi Jinping is the most powerful person in the world. At China’s 20th Communist Party congress in October he secured a third term as party chief, and may rule China for the rest of his life.
But the real story of China’s leader remains a mystery. The Economist’s Sue-Lin Wong finds out how he rose to the top in our eight-part podcast series. The Prince is the epic story of Mr Xi’s turbulent past, how he has changed China and how he is trying to change the world."
https://www.economist.com/theprincepod
--
This podcast is worthy enough to overcome my distain for The Economist. (I canceled my subscription over their endorsement for the Iraq War.)
It's not quite as over produced as the Radiolab genre. The signal is discernible from the noise without excess effort.
I'm liking the followup Drum Tower podcast so far. But it's too soon to cast judgement.
China. Russia. Why? How can their citizens put up with this crap?
In the category of "questions that already have the same answer presented a million ways on the web, on youtube, etc. etc. etc."? If you still don't know how, you've intentionally made sure to never actually look that up.
Massive control mechanisms combined with widespread brainwashing and propaganda.
Right. The citizens have 0% accountability on the government since aliens raised outside galaxy comes and rule the country.
What happened last time they tried to sort it out:
https://youtu.be/kMKvxJ-Js3A
https://youtu.be/kMKvxJ-Js3A
russia? dunno
china? easy. 1 billion people lifted out of poverty. life is good now unlike 30yrs ago.this is the best government in generations.
china? easy. 1 billion people lifted out of poverty. life is good now unlike 30yrs ago.this is the best government in generations.
Hostile government. But in reality every country does some level of this.
[deleted]
American journalist who writes critically on America targeted in intimidation scheme.
https://www.foxnews.com/media/biden-admin-accused-intimidati...
https://www.foxnews.com/media/biden-admin-accused-intimidati...
why dont these people stay silent?
proxyon(1)
[flagged]
> you mean like EVERY SINGLE western journalist
and why do you think they do that? isn't it possiblee that there are many things very, very wrong with china?
and why do you think they do that? isn't it possiblee that there are many things very, very wrong with china?
We've banned this account for using HN exclusively for ideological and nationalistic battle and ignoring our request to stop (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35347522). That's not ok on HN, regardless of what you're battling for or against: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
In case anyone is worried about us "banning $user just because you disagree with their $views" - I've spent countless hours protecting and defending HN commenters who happen to be posting contrary views on China, just as on any other topic. You can see years' worth of this at https://news.ycombinator.com/chinamod, which is a list I made when this worry came up once before.
So yes, it's certainly ok for people with different backgrounds to defend minority views on HN—that's an important principle here. It's not ok, though, to just use HN for destructive flamewar. We have to ban accounts that do the latter regardless of what they're arguing for.
Accounts arguing for contrarian positions are under greater pressure because they get surrounded and pounced on by the majority in ways that can feel very much like being ganged up on. This makes it understandable that they tend to become defensive (i.e. aggressive), resort to snark and fulmination and flamewar, etc. But even though it's understandable, it's not ok, and we don't have a choice but to ban accounts when they are doing this with no regard for HN's rules.
In case anyone is worried about us "banning $user just because you disagree with their $views" - I've spent countless hours protecting and defending HN commenters who happen to be posting contrary views on China, just as on any other topic. You can see years' worth of this at https://news.ycombinator.com/chinamod, which is a list I made when this worry came up once before.
So yes, it's certainly ok for people with different backgrounds to defend minority views on HN—that's an important principle here. It's not ok, though, to just use HN for destructive flamewar. We have to ban accounts that do the latter regardless of what they're arguing for.
Accounts arguing for contrarian positions are under greater pressure because they get surrounded and pounced on by the majority in ways that can feel very much like being ganged up on. This makes it understandable that they tend to become defensive (i.e. aggressive), resort to snark and fulmination and flamewar, etc. But even though it's understandable, it's not ok, and we don't have a choice but to ban accounts when they are doing this with no regard for HN's rules.
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Interesting how ASML appears in the context. The Chinese want to own electronics of the Western world.
[0] https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/108649435/professor-annemarie...