German researchers figure out how lager first developed in Bavaria(phys.org)
phys.org
German researchers figure out how lager first developed in Bavaria
https://phys.org/news/2023-04-german-figure-lager-bavaria.html
56 comments
> Munich's Augustiner Edelstoff is by far the best lager from bottle I ever tasted.
Yes. The first time I had Augustiner in Munich it was a revelation. Their beer garden in Munich is a magical place and the beer is amazing, served out of huge wooden casks. Edelstoff, Helles, etc. are available. For years I could never find it in the USA but now a couple places near me carry it and it's definitely a daily drinker. Simply the perfect lager.
Beer in Prague is up there too. Pilsner Urquell serviced out of casks is really great.
Yes. The first time I had Augustiner in Munich it was a revelation. Their beer garden in Munich is a magical place and the beer is amazing, served out of huge wooden casks. Edelstoff, Helles, etc. are available. For years I could never find it in the USA but now a couple places near me carry it and it's definitely a daily drinker. Simply the perfect lager.
Beer in Prague is up there too. Pilsner Urquell serviced out of casks is really great.
Augustiner Edelstoff is really good.
You often also get it for even cheaper than 1,20€ per bottle (expensive for a german but quite cheap compared to most countries internationally).
Augustiner Hell is also very good.
Good alternatives to Edelstoff IMHO are Tegernseer Helles (even harder to get) and Büble Edelbräu. Recently I found that Weihenstephaner Helles tastes quite good, too.
Edelstoff is good! And hey, every occassion to make stronger, seasonal beer is welcome: Oktoberfest, Starkbier, Easter, Christmas...
Co2 does not create a “sour” taste.
Dissolved CO2 forms carbonic acid which like most acids has a sour taste. It's not as strong as something like citric or lactic acid but it's certainly present. I personally don't really think of it while drinking carbonated beer but I definitely notice it while drinking sparkling water without other flavors to distract me.
The reaction you describe exists but this is not generally referred to as sour in the context of beer tasting. Carbonic and citric acid are usually described as "tart" or "acidic" flavors, with "sour" generally being reserved for lactic or acetic acid.
The guy that initially commented on it being sour was talking about Czech beers and using Euros so I assumed they were European and English might not be their first language. Their language may not have the distinction you described. I believe German uses the same word for sour and acidic for example.
It's the difference between bissig, like a Berlinerweiss, and sauer, like a Lambic.
I make carbonated water at home and I get a LOT of CO2 into my bottles. It definitely tasted sour so I add a tiny bit of baking soda as and acid regulator.
Oddly enough I awoke to a story on RTE.ie (Ireland's state broadcaster's website) entitled "Irish scientists help uncover origins of lager beer". I laughed, opening the article, to find the title change to "Unknown origins of lager beer uncovered by Irish and German scientists". It still places us Irish at the forefront, but a little less so :-)
https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0427/1379406-lager-origins/
https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0427/1379406-lager-origins/
Ah ok, that kind of lager!
Lol, I associated it with a prison too.
"Camp" is a more accurate translation, which gives the title a bit of a different connotation...
In Russian, Czech or Slovak, I have never ever seen or heard it being used in the context of an innocent camp. It just means bad kind of prison and sometimes military barracks - when you want to imply you don't like those military barracks.
I do not know how in German.
I do not know how in German.
Summer camp? https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Летний_лагерь
When лагерь is used by itself, it depends on context - could be a prison/labor camp, kids summer camp, a historical military reference to an army camping on a campaign, or even a refugee camp or a tourist camp. Not that different from English “camp” really.
Russian also borrowed lager bier in “лагер” (without the softening “ь”), whereas Czech and Slovak have native words for it (ležák/ležiak) with a similar (if not greater) complexity in styles to Germany.
When лагерь is used by itself, it depends on context - could be a prison/labor camp, kids summer camp, a historical military reference to an army camping on a campaign, or even a refugee camp or a tourist camp. Not that different from English “camp” really.
Russian also borrowed lager bier in “лагер” (without the softening “ь”), whereas Czech and Slovak have native words for it (ležák/ležiak) with a similar (if not greater) complexity in styles to Germany.
you can see it in the German word for concentration camp: KonzentrationsLAGER.
Tell me you don't drink beer without telling me you don't drink beer.
Nobody here calls it "Lager", u less it actually is one. We have Helles, Dunkles, Weissbier, dunkles Weisbier, Kellerbier, Pils, Lagerbier... If you order a Lager in Bavaria I honestly have no idea what you would get. Most likely still a beer, I have to try it next time, weather is nice enough for a first trip to a beer garden anyway!
You'd get a Helles or Pils, depending where in Germany you are. Either because the waiter/waitress know that they are lagers, or alternatively, they don't, but understand Bier, in which case they'll serve you a Helles or Pils as well.
Weissbier and all other white beers are ales, not lagers.
Lager/bottom-fermenting: Helles, Dunkles, Kellerbier/Zwickel, Pils
Ale/top-fermenting: Weissbier/Weizenbier, dunkles Weissbier/Weizenbier, Alt, Kölsch
Ale/top-fermenting: Weissbier/Weizenbier, dunkles Weissbier/Weizenbier, Alt, Kölsch
I’m surprised that Kölsch is top-fermenting as I (a Dutch beer noob) would describe Kölsch as “like a regular lager, but then really nice and in a long drink glass”.
Love it, I’m all confused
Love it, I’m all confused
And that’s kind of the point of Kölsch.
A lot of home brewers who don’t want to mess about with temperature controlling bottom fermentation go for a top fermenting Kölsch yeast to achieve the same effect.
A lot of home brewers who don’t want to mess about with temperature controlling bottom fermentation go for a top fermenting Kölsch yeast to achieve the same effect.
This is an English speaking website. In English, lager only means beer
The article talks about 90% of all consumed beers are "Lager" which definitely isn't what I would expect when I hear "Lagerbier". The "90% mainstream beer" is called Pilsner in Germany (unless you're in Bavaria where the mainstream beer is probably Hefeweizen).
PS: I'm actually surprised by the article, I thought this type of beer was first brewed in Pilsen/Plzeň (thus the name "Pilsner")
PS: I'm actually surprised by the article, I thought this type of beer was first brewed in Pilsen/Plzeň (thus the name "Pilsner")
Not sure about the rest of Bavaria, but "Helles" (Lager) is the mainstream beer in Munich. Weißbier (Hefeweizen) isn't that uncommon but rather cliche...
I don't know about Swabia and Franconia but if you are in Upper Bavaria (or probably any part of Altbayern [0]) and order a beer (without specifying anything else), you will definitely get a Helles.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altbayern
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altbayern
To misunderstand this word, OP probably speaks German, which means statistically they probably drink more beer than you.
Not just German. Similar word exists also in Russian (лагерь), Czech (lágr), Slovak (láger).
Doesn't help that "Lager" is not used as much for beer in Germany, at least in the regions I know.
Such beer is instead often classified as "Untergärig", from "untergärige Hefe" => "bottom-fermenting yeast"
Such beer is instead often classified as "Untergärig", from "untergärige Hefe" => "bottom-fermenting yeast"
Nobody I know orders their beer "ein Untergärig bitte" (Switzerland here). Although not THE name, still everybody knows what a Lager is (as in, whether they want a helles or dunkles). Yes of course there's the camp meaning as well, but you wouldn't mix that up in a Kneipe. Only when you read just a random internet article and you have zero context to know which is which - even though this phrasing would be really weird if it referred to a camp (for me, non-native English speaker).
Yeah, Lager inside a Kneipe / Wirtshaus is obviously meant in the "category of beer" way. At least here in Bavaria, it would just be "ein Helles" (or "ein Dunkles"). :D
Regional differences between Bavaria and Switzerland may show here. As an example of "Untergärig" used instead of Lager: https://www.giesinger-shop.de/zum-trinken/9-giesinger-erhell...
Regional differences between Bavaria and Switzerland may show here. As an example of "Untergärig" used instead of Lager: https://www.giesinger-shop.de/zum-trinken/9-giesinger-erhell...
This is commercial advertising, a product description. That has of course its place but it's something different from the daily usage, which is what I meant. You wouldn't order at the Theke ein Untergäriges, or would you???
> At least here in Bavaria, it would just be "ein Helles" (or "ein Dunkles"). :D
No, I wouldn't. And you wouldn't just order "a Lager", right? I kinda think we don't actually disagree. :)
The only difference may be that, if asked what kind of beer a "Helles" is, expecting some kind of category other than "Helles", I would answer "untergäriges Bier" and you may answer "Lager". Both are correct, one description focuses on the ability to keep the beer in storage in the ice cellar of the brewery, the other on the brewing process. What we both probably don't do is also e.g. call a Pils a Lager. In my experience, some of our american friends do that.
My point was that the US definition of beers that are "Lager" is very broad, way broader than in Germany (and probably also Switzerland & Austria) and that some parts of Germany even use completly different words for a similar categorization.
No, I wouldn't. And you wouldn't just order "a Lager", right? I kinda think we don't actually disagree. :)
The only difference may be that, if asked what kind of beer a "Helles" is, expecting some kind of category other than "Helles", I would answer "untergäriges Bier" and you may answer "Lager". Both are correct, one description focuses on the ability to keep the beer in storage in the ice cellar of the brewery, the other on the brewing process. What we both probably don't do is also e.g. call a Pils a Lager. In my experience, some of our american friends do that.
My point was that the US definition of beers that are "Lager" is very broad, way broader than in Germany (and probably also Switzerland & Austria) and that some parts of Germany even use completly different words for a similar categorization.
Ahhh I think I finally got your point - that basically everything is confusing (as even my favorite porters can be untergärig). And I also learned that the Austrian Märzen is not exactly what I'd expect, so all in all an interesting beer thread :)
PS I wouldn't order a lager either. If I didn't care what they have (very rarely) I'd order "a beer" and live with it, or otherwise I'd ask for the choices.
PS I wouldn't order a lager either. If I didn't care what they have (very rarely) I'd order "a beer" and live with it, or otherwise I'd ask for the choices.
And in Austria, a Märzen.
Good to know. I also associate lager with Pilsener and northern Germany so I realize now that I was totally off. Also the connection between Reinheitsgebot and ale/lager yeasts was new. I didn't know that the type of yeast was specified in the law.
Finally we have some really excellent lager beers in Oregon, it's been a long time coming.
Finally we have some really excellent lager beers in Oregon, it's been a long time coming.
No beer, imo, can top a lager from the Bavarian region. Doesn't matter if it's Hofbrau, Weihenstephaner, etc. Basically, all of them are good. I have never really understood why they haven't been more successful in market penetration. The closest two commercially successful beers, at least in the US, that are even similar are Stella and Heineken. I do know that there was some backlash of German beers being brewed in the US. I know Lowenbrau was once quite popular, but they did a brewing partnership with Coors...I think, which changed the taste and it fell out of the US market. Now a lot of German restaurants have the beer shipped straight from Germany. A lot of people drink IPAs now, but American IPAs to me just taste like cheaply made beer that's expensive to purchase.
A big reason why Bavarian beer is so good is the Reinheitsgebot. Exactly defined high quality ingredients and exact recipes for brewing.
What is the prison meaning?
The semantic space that "lager" covers in German is around storage/collection: so it covers concepts that in English are distinguished by worlds like "camp" (storage of people; and is therefore applied to prison camps) and "warehouse". Lager beer is matured in cold storage (like a cellar), hence "Lagerbier" just means "beer kept in storage", roughly.
Because of differing semantic coverage, a lot of words between German and English are not 1:1 mappings. A reverse example is that in English we often speak of generic entrances, while in German you would normally distinguish between an entrance you drive through ("Einfahrt") versus walk ("Eingang").
Because of differing semantic coverage, a lot of words between German and English are not 1:1 mappings. A reverse example is that in English we often speak of generic entrances, while in German you would normally distinguish between an entrance you drive through ("Einfahrt") versus walk ("Eingang").
>The semantic space that "lager" covers in German is around storage/collection
It's wider than that and covers also the sleeping place of people and animals. Lager is related to lair in English.
It's wider than that and covers also the sleeping place of people and animals. Lager is related to lair in English.
Wow, I didnt know einfarht bs eingang. For most folks speaking English, such a distinction is not needed. For me, in my work, I have to speak of vehicle versus pedestrian all the damn time.-
But note that "lager beer" is not at all similar to "prison wine".
At UCSD, the campus library is named “Geisel Library” (Geisel means hostage)
The medical school at Dartmouth, too.
Lager also means camp, as in KonzentrationsLAGER (concentration camp)
One could put together a phrase where that one would clearly come out when speaking it out, though not (or not as clearly) in written form, e.g.:
"Frag mal den Wirt, welche Alkohol-Konzentration s'Lager-Bier hat"
And it means "bearing" as in "Axialnadellager".
this title, let's change it c'mon.
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It easily beats any 'craft' beers I've experienced around the globe, and 0.5 lter bottle costs 1.2 euro in Munich's supermarkets. Makes me think its good for my health I don't live there, would probably become significant consumer. Also, still pending with tasting it from the barrels (which should be wooden in this case, unlike basically any other mass produced beers I am aware of). They also make stronger special for Oktoberfest, another todo