Greek shipwreck: hi-tech investigation suggests coastguard responsible(theguardian.com)
theguardian.com
Greek shipwreck: hi-tech investigation suggests coastguard responsible
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2023/jul/10/greek-shipwreck-hi-tech-investigation-suggests-coastguard-responsible-for-sinking
77 comments
All the eyewitnesses already said that the coastguard caused this, yet there is no shred of outcry from the Western countries.
The Greek coastguard drowned 500 refugees and immigrants. Let that sink in for a moment.
The Greek coastguard drowned 500 refugees and immigrants. Let that sink in for a moment.
> Let that sink in for a moment.
awkward phrasing choice
awkward phrasing choice
> yet there is no shred of outcry from the Western countries
It’s covered in both American and UK national news. The Guardian is a UK news media org.
Did this have good enough coverage in the EU, especially the conclusion?
In this case, they murdered children so it would be strange if this was ignored on the continent.
It’s covered in both American and UK national news. The Guardian is a UK news media org.
Did this have good enough coverage in the EU, especially the conclusion?
In this case, they murdered children so it would be strange if this was ignored on the continent.
"Did this have good enough coverage in the EU, especially the conclusion?"
From the Guardian report:
> "The joint investigation by the Guardian, German public broadcaster ARD/NDR/Funk and Greek investigative outlet Solomon, in collaboration with Forensi" (Forensis is a Berlin-based research agency which investigates human rights violations)
From the Guardian report:
> "The joint investigation by the Guardian, German public broadcaster ARD/NDR/Funk and Greek investigative outlet Solomon, in collaboration with Forensi" (Forensis is a Berlin-based research agency which investigates human rights violations)
When the EU replaced Italy's search & rescue-focussed Op Mare Nostrum in 2014 with it's border security-focussed Op Triton, deaths in the Mediterranean increased markedly, in some cases by as much as 1,600% between years.[0] This also led to a thriving coastal slave trade in Libya, to which Frontex happily return people if they are detected close enough that the Libyan Coast Guard can reach them first.
Whether this particular incident was intentional or accidental, and whether those responsible will be punished or not, the whole regime has been consciously constructed to produce exactly this kind of result.
To quote the book Necropolitics, by Achille Mbembe:
> In an increasingly Balkanized and isolated world, where are the most deadly migrant routes? It is Europe! Who claims the largest number of skeletons and the largest marine cemetery in this century? Again, it is Europe! The greatest number of deserts, territorial and international waters, channels, islands, straits, enclaves, canals, rivers, ports, and airports transformed into iron curtain technologies? Europe! And to top it all off, in these times of permanent escalation—the camps. The return of camps. A Europe of camps. Samos, Chios, Lesbos, Idomeni, Lampedusa, Vintimille, Sicily, Subotica—the list goes on.
[0]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNHCR2.png#mw-jump...
Whether this particular incident was intentional or accidental, and whether those responsible will be punished or not, the whole regime has been consciously constructed to produce exactly this kind of result.
To quote the book Necropolitics, by Achille Mbembe:
> In an increasingly Balkanized and isolated world, where are the most deadly migrant routes? It is Europe! Who claims the largest number of skeletons and the largest marine cemetery in this century? Again, it is Europe! The greatest number of deserts, territorial and international waters, channels, islands, straits, enclaves, canals, rivers, ports, and airports transformed into iron curtain technologies? Europe! And to top it all off, in these times of permanent escalation—the camps. The return of camps. A Europe of camps. Samos, Chios, Lesbos, Idomeni, Lampedusa, Vintimille, Sicily, Subotica—the list goes on.
[0]: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:UNHCR2.png#mw-jump...
Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal all have their own version of this (to a more or less limited extent) by virtue of being the Southern most countries in the union. It's an impossible position to be in and no matter how they try to deal with it it never works to anybody's satisfaction. The Greek coastguard seems to have a lot to answer for based on the evidence presented, but I somewhat doubt those 'Western countries' (of which they consider themselves part) are going to take action. Because if they did those Southern states could just throw up their hands and say 'if you know how to deal with this then you will have to show us'. And nobody is willing to take that up. Long term the only way to deal with it is to arrange for economic parity with the countries on the other side of the divide and that's not going to happen in the next 50 years, maybe not even in the next 100. But it worked well for Mexico and the United States right up to the point where Trump came to power, then it all went to pieces. But I do believe that that is the only way out and until then we will see one tragedy after another.
Europe has a strong xenophobic streak running through it at the moment, in each and every country there is a right-of-center party either ruling or gaining strength to the point that people are seriously worried they will be able to unite. Most of these campaign on fear-of-the-other and immigrants are obviously a very convenient scapegoat. Housing shortage, the social contract that has become unstable, school quality and so on, each and every problem is traced back to immigration, no matter how ridiculous the link. And it gets lapped up as gospel.
I'm all for getting to the bottom of this and bringing the Greek coastguard leadership as well as anybody that was on that boat to justice. But I cynically doubt that this will happen, and that even if it should happen that something fundamental will change.
Europe has a strong xenophobic streak running through it at the moment, in each and every country there is a right-of-center party either ruling or gaining strength to the point that people are seriously worried they will be able to unite. Most of these campaign on fear-of-the-other and immigrants are obviously a very convenient scapegoat. Housing shortage, the social contract that has become unstable, school quality and so on, each and every problem is traced back to immigration, no matter how ridiculous the link. And it gets lapped up as gospel.
I'm all for getting to the bottom of this and bringing the Greek coastguard leadership as well as anybody that was on that boat to justice. But I cynically doubt that this will happen, and that even if it should happen that something fundamental will change.
> Europe has a strong xenophobic streak running through it at the moment, in each and every country there is a right-of-center party either ruling or gaining strength to the point that people are seriously worried they will be able to unite. Most of these campaign on fear-of-the-other and immigrants are obviously a very convenient scapegoat. Housing shortage, the social contract that has become unstable, school quality and so on, each and every problem is traced back to immigration, no matter how ridiculous the link.
Caught many people off guard, but this disease has also spread to Canada. They’re just a lot more subtle about it compared to most Western countries.
Maybe it shouldn’t be a surprise to us since one could argue that it likely spread from the US? However, on a whole we still don’t blame immigrants for housing shortages and job losses (yet).
Caught many people off guard, but this disease has also spread to Canada. They’re just a lot more subtle about it compared to most Western countries.
Maybe it shouldn’t be a surprise to us since one could argue that it likely spread from the US? However, on a whole we still don’t blame immigrants for housing shortages and job losses (yet).
For the US and Canada this is in a way even weirder: the vast majority of the population there can trace back their own roots to immigrants, I find it hard to imagine if you know your own history to that degree that you would object to other immigrants.
For Europe: not all that long ago many here were refugees, on the run for the Nazis or during other wars. Immigration and refugees are a sign that the world isn't working well, a symptom, not a cause and you can't cure symptoms.
For Europe: not all that long ago many here were refugees, on the run for the Nazis or during other wars. Immigration and refugees are a sign that the world isn't working well, a symptom, not a cause and you can't cure symptoms.
Thank you for pointing that out. This political cartoon highlighting this hypocrisy is over a 100 years old.
https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn544901
https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/irn544901
Western countries spend a lot of time and money informing their populace that refugees aren’t human, they’re menaces. There’s plenty of narrative spin about how rapes increase with them, or how they don’t integrate into society properly, how their children can’t follow the new country’s laws and teachers can’t discipline them for fear of being called racist, how they breed too much and will soon take over our country, they steal jobs, etc etc etc.
I’m not surprised there’s not significant outcry when hundreds are drowned. Much of the population is already taught to view them as a threat to be eliminated.
I’m not surprised there’s not significant outcry when hundreds are drowned. Much of the population is already taught to view them as a threat to be eliminated.
That's a lie, a dangerous and hateful one. Which country promotes that, do you have any examples?
Plenty of extremely popular western media are constantly funneling money about the terrors of immigrants. It’s so popular that they have buzzwords: great replacement, caravan, sharia law, etc.
Previous USA president spent a lot of time lamenting immigrants at the southern border.
In the US, the President is not the state.
If you elect a fear mongering racist to the presidency people might be forgiven thinking its official policy, and when they are able to effect policy directly, its the state.
https://www.aclu-wa.org/pages/timeline-muslim-ban - the USA's official policy was banning Syrian refugees
"Without looking at the various polling data," Trump said in a statement, "it is obvious to anybody the hatred is beyond comprehension. Where this hatred comes from and why we will have to determine. Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life."
This was in reference to a woman who was the wife of an accomplice from Pakistan.
https://www.aclu-wa.org/pages/timeline-muslim-ban - the USA's official policy was banning Syrian refugees
"Without looking at the various polling data," Trump said in a statement, "it is obvious to anybody the hatred is beyond comprehension. Where this hatred comes from and why we will have to determine. Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life."
This was in reference to a woman who was the wife of an accomplice from Pakistan.
Oh man, I can't think of a single reason why an article written today wouldn't have caused widespread rioting yet. Not One.
But in seriousness, these incidents do historically [1] go through the court system. Unfortunately Greece tends to just get in trouble for not following proper procedure since they turn off video and etc which prevents getting enough evidence for a larger crime.
Let me know when Russia agrees to payout any penalty for its invasion of Ukraine.
[1]: https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/41810/european-court-sl...
But in seriousness, these incidents do historically [1] go through the court system. Unfortunately Greece tends to just get in trouble for not following proper procedure since they turn off video and etc which prevents getting enough evidence for a larger crime.
Let me know when Russia agrees to payout any penalty for its invasion of Ukraine.
[1]: https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/41810/european-court-sl...
Having talked to a few Greek people, it's seems that Greece is European only by their pure presence in the EU. Their police/military human-rights culture (or lack there of) seems at par with Tunisia, or maybe even worse.
I think most people have assumptions about EU countries where they just classify any EU country as the Netherlands. The article shows that this is not a case of a rogue coast-guard but that the whole system in Greece is rotten from the inside-out.
I think most people have assumptions about EU countries where they just classify any EU country as the Netherlands. The article shows that this is not a case of a rogue coast-guard but that the whole system in Greece is rotten from the inside-out.
The assumption you're making that the netherlands couldn't or wouldn't do something similar is interesting. I don't know, maybe they wouldn't. France certainly would. Where is the border around "real EU, and thus incapable of atrocity" you're drawing?
I'm pretty sure they would. We have a pretty strong anti-immigrant movement here and if what happened at the IND and the tax office is any guidance I highly doubt our coastguard would be immune.
I believe so too. It's a neat arrangement for the northern countries that get to keep their hands clean and humanitarian reputations intact because places like greece and italy do it for them.
But if they had to do it they would. The same attitudes and dynamics that allow this to happen in southern europe are also in place in northern europe.
But if they had to do it they would. The same attitudes and dynamics that allow this to happen in southern europe are also in place in northern europe.
It's a textbook case of externalization. For the Northern countries it turns into a line item in the budget, otherwise they can pretend the problem isn't theirs.
The EU is very much complacent with the current situation. There will be condemnation, but administrations across EU are very happy for having offloaded the dirty work to Greece and Italy.
And funny that you mention the Netherlands, because the Dutch government just resigned because the PM could not pass legislation to further restrict the number of asylum-seekers [1]. If Rutte is so hell-bent for that kind legislation while 2.000km away from the epicenter of the problem, one cannot imagine he would be the paragon of humanism, were the Netherlands closer to it.
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66139789
And funny that you mention the Netherlands, because the Dutch government just resigned because the PM could not pass legislation to further restrict the number of asylum-seekers [1]. If Rutte is so hell-bent for that kind legislation while 2.000km away from the epicenter of the problem, one cannot imagine he would be the paragon of humanism, were the Netherlands closer to it.
[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66139789
"hi-tech investigation" - or maybe just listen to the survivors who were actually there who said that the Greek coast guard connected to, and capsized, their boat?
It's good to have more evidence but this is additional - we already know this is a case of mass murder by a government.
It's good to have more evidence but this is additional - we already know this is a case of mass murder by a government.
How absolutely horrifying. Is this the future we can expect from climate change? Murdering the people who try to escape the suffering we have inflicted upon them?
Absolutely yes. If you do some envelope math about the scale of the problem, you realize it'll be a crisis like nothing we've ever faced before.
For example, in Bangladesh, 45% of the population (74m people) live within a meter of sea level. Bangladesh is in some ways like a huge Mississippi River delta.
Imagine what would happen if 74m people had to flee their homes... It's tough because humanity has never dealt with a migration on that scale. But the outcome will certainly be chaotic, there won't be supply chains to feed that many people let alone house them and provide sanitation. And in that level of chaos there will be military response and violence.
For example, in Bangladesh, 45% of the population (74m people) live within a meter of sea level. Bangladesh is in some ways like a huge Mississippi River delta.
Imagine what would happen if 74m people had to flee their homes... It's tough because humanity has never dealt with a migration on that scale. But the outcome will certainly be chaotic, there won't be supply chains to feed that many people let alone house them and provide sanitation. And in that level of chaos there will be military response and violence.
> Two of the coastguard sources told the Guardian they believed towing was a likely reason for the boat capsizing. This would not be without precedent. In 2014, an attempt to tow a refugee boat off the coast of Farmakonisi cost 11 lives. Greek courts cleared the coastguard, but the European court of human rights passed a damning judgment in 2022.
One case in court - it happened before.
One case in court - it happened before.
Blaming immigration into Europe on climate change seems like a stretch. It's about political and economic instability.
I think they’re saying that the future migrations caused by climate change will have similar outcomes
Well, ask yourself what are the causes of the political and economic instabilities, and whether they are largely (and increasingly) due to climate change...
.. Or European countries and their policies dating hundreds of years back.
Oh yes, Eastern and Central Europe had famous colonies....
Ask yourself the causes of climate change and you will be right back to political economy. Parent has a point.
Americans aren't capable of discussing political economy outright.
Unfortunately, probably 'yes'.
And the degree to which we have so far proven to be unable to solve problems at that scale doesn't give me high hopes that we'll deal with this gracefully. Adapt, move or die seem to be the options on the table and 'die' is the default option if you fail at the other two.
And the degree to which we have so far proven to be unable to solve problems at that scale doesn't give me high hopes that we'll deal with this gracefully. Adapt, move or die seem to be the options on the table and 'die' is the default option if you fail at the other two.
It's already been happening. It will just keep growing.
Exactly this outcome was predicted decades ago and has been happening for at least ten years now.
On the other hand, 'climate change' is the excuse used by rich countries for not building the infrastructure required to support increased migration.
And there's probably a significant overlap between the people calling for wide open borders and those who'd protest to block large infrastructure construction projects for environmental reasons.
And there's probably a significant overlap between the people calling for wide open borders and those who'd protest to block large infrastructure construction projects for environmental reasons.
Who is calling for wide open borders?
Justin Trudeau, the Prime Minister of Canada, considers Canada a postnational state. He'd open the borders in a heartbeat if it won him the next election and a scary amount of people in Canada would support it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postnationalism#In_Canada
Thankfully our country hasn't devolved to that point yet.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postnationalism#In_Canada
Thankfully our country hasn't devolved to that point yet.
Devolved? Did people forget most Canadians are or are related to to immigrants / colonists? Moving into a country then closing the door behind you is a dick move. I mean moving into it and claiming it as your own territoriy (colonization) and displacing the original population is a dick move too. But colonization is not the same as immigration or refugeeism.
The same can be said for most of the entire world.
That still doesn't make turning your country into a postnational state a good decision.
I'm still of the opinion that making Canada a post national state would be devolving the country even though I already know what you pointed out.
That still doesn't make turning your country into a postnational state a good decision.
I'm still of the opinion that making Canada a post national state would be devolving the country even though I already know what you pointed out.
> The same can be said for most of the entire world.
No, it can't be. Certainly not to the degree that holds for the US and Canada.
No, it can't be. Certainly not to the degree that holds for the US and Canada.
I don't want to argue about this or fact check it but I still don't think that matters or changes my mind even if it's true.
Turning Canada into a postnational state would still be a terrible decision despite that fact. I still don't want my country to devolve into that.
Turning Canada into a postnational state would still be a terrible decision despite that fact. I still don't want my country to devolve into that.
Like with most of these things 'fear' is a powerful button. But ask yourself this: from the position of a native Canadian you're the intruder (by proxy), and yet you are empowered to decide who should or should not be allowed to enter one of the largest countries in the world, with a population density approaching zero.
I've lived in Canada for a relatively long time, the amount of overt racism and the amount of xenophobia are off the scale. I have a hard time reconciling that with the immigrant background of the average Canadian and think that if it was good enough for your (great) grandparents to displace the natives then it probably should be good enough for you to take a (minor) degree of mental discomfort if it helps refugees and others that have an actual need. And if you feel that that is too much of a step for your society to make then that's sad because it says that your ancestors did not manage to pass on their life's experience to a degree that you can benefit from it.
Less than two generations ago my grandparents were refugees, driven - on foot - with their children from the home they lived in to walk across the frozen country side. They were taken in by farmers who definitely did not have food to spare. But they did it anyway, and at a considerable price to their own well-being and health they helped these complete strangers through the toughest part of World War II for that region (the area around Arnhem, well known for operation Market Garden and shown in some detail in the movie 'A bridge too far'.
Refugees and other displaced people are welcome where I live, I'll be happy to pay more taxes if that's what it takes and I realize that with the housing shortage it means that my kids will likely not have a place to move to when they are of the age that they would normally do so. But my grandparents did manage to pass on the lessons learned from those times.
I've lived in Canada for a relatively long time, the amount of overt racism and the amount of xenophobia are off the scale. I have a hard time reconciling that with the immigrant background of the average Canadian and think that if it was good enough for your (great) grandparents to displace the natives then it probably should be good enough for you to take a (minor) degree of mental discomfort if it helps refugees and others that have an actual need. And if you feel that that is too much of a step for your society to make then that's sad because it says that your ancestors did not manage to pass on their life's experience to a degree that you can benefit from it.
Less than two generations ago my grandparents were refugees, driven - on foot - with their children from the home they lived in to walk across the frozen country side. They were taken in by farmers who definitely did not have food to spare. But they did it anyway, and at a considerable price to their own well-being and health they helped these complete strangers through the toughest part of World War II for that region (the area around Arnhem, well known for operation Market Garden and shown in some detail in the movie 'A bridge too far'.
Refugees and other displaced people are welcome where I live, I'll be happy to pay more taxes if that's what it takes and I realize that with the housing shortage it means that my kids will likely not have a place to move to when they are of the age that they would normally do so. But my grandparents did manage to pass on the lessons learned from those times.
I still don't see how any of this matters to me? Are you reading what I'm writing or more interested in lecturing somebody today?
You keep bringing up arguments I've already said will not sway me. I don't care that my ancestors were colonizers because it wasn't me. I don't care if you call me an invader because, again, it wasn't me.
I'm not interested in giving any land back to anyone or allowing anyone into the country with no checks and balances because of something that happened 100s of years ago. And yes, I'm aware of the residential schools, but no, our government being shitty still doesn't make me desire turning Canada into a postnational state. Because it wasn't me!
My ancestors are not me and I'm not interested in carrying weight on my shoulders for things other people have done.
You keep bringing up arguments I've already said will not sway me. I don't care that my ancestors were colonizers because it wasn't me. I don't care if you call me an invader because, again, it wasn't me.
I'm not interested in giving any land back to anyone or allowing anyone into the country with no checks and balances because of something that happened 100s of years ago. And yes, I'm aware of the residential schools, but no, our government being shitty still doesn't make me desire turning Canada into a postnational state. Because it wasn't me!
My ancestors are not me and I'm not interested in carrying weight on my shoulders for things other people have done.
> You keep bringing up arguments I've already said will not sway me.
That's not a problem with the arguments, it's a problem with your worldview. If everything that happened that you directly benefit from 'wasn't you' and you therefore refuse to redress the wrongs done and on top of that refuse those same benefits to others that doesn't - in my opinion - make you a nice or reasonable person. Similar arguments have been put forth by the beneficiaries of crimes in the past and failed. You're obviously entirely welcome to your worldview and your feeling that if it wasn't you that did it that you can ignore the source of your wealth but such individual selfishness can add up to collective selfishness and that's the sort of thing that will sooner or later garner a collective response. And by then no amount of 'it wasn't me' will be of help because it was you, all along. By helping to correct these wrong and by being open to others being helped you serve yourself because you keep the social pressures at a manageable level. Ignoring them for too long leads to them spilling over.
That's not a problem with the arguments, it's a problem with your worldview. If everything that happened that you directly benefit from 'wasn't you' and you therefore refuse to redress the wrongs done and on top of that refuse those same benefits to others that doesn't - in my opinion - make you a nice or reasonable person. Similar arguments have been put forth by the beneficiaries of crimes in the past and failed. You're obviously entirely welcome to your worldview and your feeling that if it wasn't you that did it that you can ignore the source of your wealth but such individual selfishness can add up to collective selfishness and that's the sort of thing that will sooner or later garner a collective response. And by then no amount of 'it wasn't me' will be of help because it was you, all along. By helping to correct these wrong and by being open to others being helped you serve yourself because you keep the social pressures at a manageable level. Ignoring them for too long leads to them spilling over.
> You're obviously entirely welcome to your worldview and your feeling that if it wasn't you that did it that you can ignore the source of your wealth but such individual selfishness can add up to collective selfishness and that's the sort of thing that will sooner or later garner a collective response. And by then no amount of 'it wasn't me' will be of help because it was you, all along.
No, it wasn't me. For one, I was born in 1983 so it's literally impossible for it to have been me. I also don't have any wealth that I've benefited from. My family is broke as fuck and I'll inherit literally nothing of any value to anyone when my parents die. I have no living grandparents left.
You're going to have to do better than "your worldview is different from mine therefore it sucks" to convince me that I've oppressed anyone anywhere. Your worldview sucks though and I suggest you get a better one. I can't help you with that because I'm not willing to patronize you so willingly, so good luck.
No, it wasn't me. For one, I was born in 1983 so it's literally impossible for it to have been me. I also don't have any wealth that I've benefited from. My family is broke as fuck and I'll inherit literally nothing of any value to anyone when my parents die. I have no living grandparents left.
You're going to have to do better than "your worldview is different from mine therefore it sucks" to convince me that I've oppressed anyone anywhere. Your worldview sucks though and I suggest you get a better one. I can't help you with that because I'm not willing to patronize you so willingly, so good luck.
[deleted]
I am!
Why ? You feel alone ?
I'm not mastax, but I personally think borders are stupid and we shouldn't be locking people into the place they were born. I want us to move beyond such feudal ideas.
Of course I also understand that unrestrained migration right now would cause massive problems. The real problem here is not the migration itself, but what's causing it. Most people (apart from some adventurous souls) don't normally want to leave the place they were born and where their family lives, except when driven to leave by circumstances, whether those circumstances are poverty, civil war or climate change.
If we have a problem with migration, we should do more to address the causes of migration. And not create more causes for migration.
Of course I also understand that unrestrained migration right now would cause massive problems. The real problem here is not the migration itself, but what's causing it. Most people (apart from some adventurous souls) don't normally want to leave the place they were born and where their family lives, except when driven to leave by circumstances, whether those circumstances are poverty, civil war or climate change.
If we have a problem with migration, we should do more to address the causes of migration. And not create more causes for migration.
>>we should do more to address the causes of migration
In my opinion not even God himself (if he exists) can address the causes of migration unless He changes the natural rules overnight. The idea that you and me or even Elon Musk + Bill Gates can actually do something to address the actual causes of migration sounds very naive, horribly naive, and please don't take it as an offense. Lets say for a moment that there is a miracle and "we" fix the poverty and the climate in the world tomorrow. How long do you think will that last ? 20-30 years until the world population doubles again ? What do you do then when this overpopulation combined with the corresponding consumption and pollution brings us back to the current situation ? Will you invite "us" all again to fix everything back ? How are "we" going to fix this situation ? By working each of us overtime or what ?
In my opinion not even God himself (if he exists) can address the causes of migration unless He changes the natural rules overnight. The idea that you and me or even Elon Musk + Bill Gates can actually do something to address the actual causes of migration sounds very naive, horribly naive, and please don't take it as an offense. Lets say for a moment that there is a miracle and "we" fix the poverty and the climate in the world tomorrow. How long do you think will that last ? 20-30 years until the world population doubles again ? What do you do then when this overpopulation combined with the corresponding consumption and pollution brings us back to the current situation ? Will you invite "us" all again to fix everything back ? How are "we" going to fix this situation ? By working each of us overtime or what ?
The world population is unlikely to double again. In fact, a lot of countries have shrinking populations. And you know what reduces both population growth and poverty? Education.
I strongly disagree with your defeatism. We have the ability to solve problems, and we have done so in the past. We could do so again. The only thing we lack is the political will.
I strongly disagree with your defeatism. We have the ability to solve problems, and we have done so in the past. We could do so again. The only thing we lack is the political will.
Good intentions and high hopes are worth close to 0. IMHO at least one of us is badly disconnected from reality. In my part of the world "we" fail to educate our kids worse than ever, how on earth are "we" gonna educate the rest 3-4 billion people.. "Somebody do something !!!"
> IMHO at least one of us is badly disconnected from reality.
I agree with you there but probably don't agree with you on who that is.
Good intentions are a start, and are worth a lot more than bad intentions, apathy and defeatism.
'Somebody do something' is much better than 'don't threaten my lifestyle'. Better still is 'I will do something'.
I agree with you there but probably don't agree with you on who that is.
Good intentions are a start, and are worth a lot more than bad intentions, apathy and defeatism.
'Somebody do something' is much better than 'don't threaten my lifestyle'. Better still is 'I will do something'.
I disagree. Good intentions would help a lot. The problem is that in some areas, people with bad intentions dominate.
However, my purpose was initially to point out the possibility. The possibility is there. The next step is what we do with it. If you start out by giving up, you're never going to get anywhere. That's your disconnect.
However, my purpose was initially to point out the possibility. The possibility is there. The next step is what we do with it. If you start out by giving up, you're never going to get anywhere. That's your disconnect.
[deleted]
Unfortunately this has already been happening for a decade or more since the NATO "intervention" in Libya and it has little to do with climate change.
The NATO intervention has nothing to do with this. The previous dictator created the threat to dissuade the EU from removing him. Now that he's out of the picture, the inevitable happened.
A good lesson is to stop propping dictators in exchange for short-term stability. Based on the current events, the EU did not learn that lesson.
A good lesson is to stop propping dictators in exchange for short-term stability. Based on the current events, the EU did not learn that lesson.
No, the lesson is to stop interfering in other countries' internal affairs. The so-called refugees all originate from countries that suffered western military operations. "Humanitarian" intervention is the new colonialism.
Pakistan did not suffer "Western military operations", at least not recently and at a big scale, and half of the refugees in the ship were probably Pakistani.
"Humanitarian" intervention has always been an excuse to conquer, at least from the times of the Persian Empire or so.
And there have been refugee waves wherever there had been war and famine - that is all over the globe, with nothing explicitly indicating the "western interventions" are outsiders
"Humanitarian" intervention has always been an excuse to conquer, at least from the times of the Persian Empire or so.
And there have been refugee waves wherever there had been war and famine - that is all over the globe, with nothing explicitly indicating the "western interventions" are outsiders
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The vast majority of refugees crossing the Mediterranean are from countries torn apart by western-instigated civil unrest or war: Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, and various north African countries subject to "color revolutions". This isn't even remotely controversial. Pakistanis, Indians, Nepalese, generally fly in with tourist or student visas, and then try to find work.
Read the article, in that specific ship it is believed that half were from Pakistan
Even if this particular ship is an outlier, the broader point stands regarding the make-up of refugee populations.
And concerning Pakistan, former PM Imran Khan stated his fall from power was caused by US interference. That counts as major.
And concerning Pakistan, former PM Imran Khan stated his fall from power was caused by US interference. That counts as major.
Blender put to good use !
Do these people have really have nothing better to do than doing "high-tech investigations" of such matters?
I would say that “such matters” are of much higher value to humankind than toiling on APIs and widgets in pursuit of profit for shareholders. Truly, immeasurably more valuable than the bullshit most of us work on. This would be like comparing the work of Upton Sinclair to that of Larry Ellison; but perhaps I’ve missed your point.
...you mean investigative journalism? Of such matters as the deaths of hundreds of people? Possibly at the fault of government officials?
The event I'm talking about is this one: https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/mar/22/world.travelnews (an article which seems got the detail mostly right, which is unusual for anything I have direct knowledge of). I worked in that same resort teaching sailing the subsequent year (while legal proceedings were still pending), working with almost everyone named in the article. So from them and speaking to the RYA I have some detail (that I'm confident in) as to what happened.
It was light winds, and three girls were sailing a catamaran and for a bit of fun were trapezing on both sides of the boat. The boat capsized and turned completely over. One of the girls ended up under the boat, became entangled in the trapeze wire and got her trapeze hook caught in the trampoline (canvas 'deck' of the catamaran). This meant that she was trapped underwater, and held there by various bits of metal that couldn't easily be cut. The rescue boats got there pretty quickly, but couldn't get her out. Colin gave her oxygen mouth to mouth while she slowly drowned.
This was a pretty freak accident. There were some improvements to general safety procedures that came out of it (carry heavy duty wire snips in rescue boats, training in how to rapidly right boats that had turtled, also some trapeze harness designs that release the hook), but I can't see anything that the beach or rescue teams did wrong. If the same incident had happened at almost any other watersports centre the results would have been the same.
That didn't stop the Greek's from prosecuting (and finding guilty) the watersports manager and deputy manager for negligence. From what we can tell that was politically motivated because it was a story that gained publicity and Greece wanted to protect the reputation of their watersports industry.