That travel deal you found online may be a one-way ticket to misery(wsj.com)
wsj.com
That travel deal you found online may be a one-way ticket to misery
https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/travel/vacation-hotels-flights-online-booking-fees-29262506
60 comments
99% of the time, you’ll get the same or better deal by booking online with the hotel directly. (Airfares, I’m less sure - the proliferation of hyper segmented economy and fees make me dubious about what the actual all-in cost of any given flight is.) And the other 1% of the time, calling the hotel will get you the same (or better) outcome or you’ll find out straight from the horse’s mouth they don’t actually have any availability for the room you want, and you’ll save yourself a lot of grief upon arrival.
> 99% of the time, you’ll get the same or better deal by booking online with the hotel directly.
This is often repeated but I almost never find it to be true in reality. Particularly for non chain hotels, best case scenario is their prices are the same as booking.com but if I go through booking I'll get points and future discounts. This tier is never cheaper booking directly. Chain hotels where I have a non base tier status will sometimes be cheaper but even then usually not.
This is often repeated but I almost never find it to be true in reality. Particularly for non chain hotels, best case scenario is their prices are the same as booking.com but if I go through booking I'll get points and future discounts. This tier is never cheaper booking directly. Chain hotels where I have a non base tier status will sometimes be cheaper but even then usually not.
Fair enough. Most of my experience tends to be with chains. But my impression is that the non-chain hotels I book don’t typically appear on aggregators so I’m usually booking with them directly in any event.
For reasons, chains have to give the aggregators their best publicly available price. However, there is a loophole that loyalty users can be offered a lower price.
The chain still makes more money as they can avoid paying the aggregator a commission.
The chain still makes more money as they can avoid paying the aggregator a commission.
> This tier is never cheaper booking directly
Even if so, the issue I’ve encountered with booking services is a complete lack of options when things go wrong.
I had a situation where the hotel was actively trying to help me, but they had few options because the booking agent (Hotels.com) made it almost impossible to get support. The hotel person patiently stayed on the line with them for almost an hour going through escalation after escalation (I was deeply grateful).
Would have been a 5 minute fix if I’d booked with the hotel, and not every place would be willing to go to these lengths.
I hear you on the points thing. But I’ve started weighing the cost of those points against the likelihood of needing to make changes once I arrive somewhere. If it’s a reputable place that I stay regularly, I’m less worried.
Even if so, the issue I’ve encountered with booking services is a complete lack of options when things go wrong.
I had a situation where the hotel was actively trying to help me, but they had few options because the booking agent (Hotels.com) made it almost impossible to get support. The hotel person patiently stayed on the line with them for almost an hour going through escalation after escalation (I was deeply grateful).
Would have been a 5 minute fix if I’d booked with the hotel, and not every place would be willing to go to these lengths.
I hear you on the points thing. But I’ve started weighing the cost of those points against the likelihood of needing to make changes once I arrive somewhere. If it’s a reputable place that I stay regularly, I’m less worried.
I can get a lot more value out of hotel points between the points that the hotel gives you and what you can get from a cobranded credit card.
In the case of Hilton it’s 34x per dollar (worth around 20%) and Hyatt 9.5x per dollar also worth around 20% back.
In the case of Hilton it’s 34x per dollar (worth around 20%) and Hyatt 9.5x per dollar also worth around 20% back.
That’s totally fair if you’re booking at well known and reputable places.
My point is that not every location fits this criteria, and the cost can be very real.
I fully shared your mindset until I had several major issues with smaller places that easily cost more than whatever value the points had.
I’m now more careful about who I use based on where I’m going. There’s still value in the points, no doubt, but risk as well.
My point is that not every location fits this criteria, and the cost can be very real.
I fully shared your mindset until I had several major issues with smaller places that easily cost more than whatever value the points had.
I’m now more careful about who I use based on where I’m going. There’s still value in the points, no doubt, but risk as well.
> calling the hotel will get you the same (or better) outcome
Not my experience. In Europe, in low-end hotels / B&B's they will get annoyed.
Wouldn't it be possible to build a decentralized booking.com/expedia alternative based on activity pub?
Not my experience. In Europe, in low-end hotels / B&B's they will get annoyed.
Wouldn't it be possible to build a decentralized booking.com/expedia alternative based on activity pub?
My experience in Europe is that some low-end places (especially apartments) gave me a phone number or even a card with contact details, and told me to call them directly next time so I could save the Booking fee. Makes sense: remove the middleman!
No, they say call direct so you can pay higher prices and not those online promo deals.
Yes, that is after they have had you as a guest. That is different from strangers calling them demanding a lower price.
We had a nice chat a couple of days with a lady from a chain of appartments and resorts in the Auszrian alps. And while she said, that next time we can easily book directly with them, she was also quite happy with booking.com. First, booking as a search engine brings them customers. Second, booking helps in getting short term stays reducing the risk and impact of last minute cancellations.
One thing so, sometimes booking.com is aponsoring fares. Obviously, the hotel cannot match that.
Regarding air travel, the last couple of flights I checked, the was no difference between skyscanner and the airlines directly. With the exception of skyscanner showing you the bare-bone fares where you bring your own seat belt...
One thing so, sometimes booking.com is aponsoring fares. Obviously, the hotel cannot match that.
Regarding air travel, the last couple of flights I checked, the was no difference between skyscanner and the airlines directly. With the exception of skyscanner showing you the bare-bone fares where you bring your own seat belt...
>With the exception of skyscanner showing you the bare-bone fares where you bring your own seat belt...
I loled but ryanair was considering a "standing only" tier: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/feb/28/ryanair-sta...
Frankly maybe I'd prefer that to cramped seats.
I loled but ryanair was considering a "standing only" tier: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2012/feb/28/ryanair-sta...
Frankly maybe I'd prefer that to cramped seats.
That was a marketing stunt. There's no way it would have been allowed and they had to have known it.
You don't want to take turbulence standing up. The London Underground doesn't take negative g-s, there's no equivalent to brace position should there be an emergency landing, and there are strict certification requirements for how quickly everyone should be able to evacuate.
The same is true about the other stunt fees listed - charge for the toilets and you'll have people peeing in bottles or on the floor.
Moving to one pilot instead of two doesn't yet seem like a cost effective solution as it requires a level of automation that isn't here yet, and definitely not something Ryan can pull off on its own. https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/single-pilot-planes/i...
You don't want to take turbulence standing up. The London Underground doesn't take negative g-s, there's no equivalent to brace position should there be an emergency landing, and there are strict certification requirements for how quickly everyone should be able to evacuate.
The same is true about the other stunt fees listed - charge for the toilets and you'll have people peeing in bottles or on the floor.
Moving to one pilot instead of two doesn't yet seem like a cost effective solution as it requires a level of automation that isn't here yet, and definitely not something Ryan can pull off on its own. https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/single-pilot-planes/i...
I learned from calling that hotels have a set of rooms that are reserved exclusively for Booking. So they might tell you no availability at this time, but Booking showing that they have "only 2 rooms left in this place".
I think I just ran into that. A hiking tour operator recently told me they couldn't book a night before room at a hotel but that there were still a couple rooms on Booking.com if I went directly.
I’ve stayed in hotels where I wanted to pay them directly for the room so they keep more of the profit, but they had to give the lowest price on Expedia and could not match it. They told me to just book on Expedia.
Probably not. There aren't deals you need had with air fares. But there are deals to be had with hotels. Hotels have decent margins and they are motivated to sell out every night. Yes, you may get a discount when you call them directly. But generally the discount comes from the person selling you the package, not from the hotel itself.
https://archive.md/tpqui
At this point basically any third party booking should be considered a scam. Even if the booking company is "legit", you're still a second class citizen with the hotel or whatever you booked and subject to no help, arbitrary fees, no points, etc.
It's just as much scamming on the side of the hotels - they accept third party booking but misrepresent that they treat you the same.
At this point basically any third party booking should be considered a scam. Even if the booking company is "legit", you're still a second class citizen with the hotel or whatever you booked and subject to no help, arbitrary fees, no points, etc.
It's just as much scamming on the side of the hotels - they accept third party booking but misrepresent that they treat you the same.
Its not like hotels are some amazing entity to deal with. Many hotels are stuck in prehistoric times.
Story: After being burned multiple times via booking.com and other third party sites, I tried to book directly with the hotel. I was planning a last minute trip with multiple stops and so i just booked a hotel and forgot about it thinking that once I arrive in Ireland i'll look up the details. There was this hotel in Ireland that accepted my booking, charged my damn card the day after the first night, but never actually sent me any confirmation or any emails. When I arrived I didn't remember whatever stupid quaint name the hotel was because I had booked about two weeks prior. I guess this was my bad because I was used to a hotel freaking emailing you something when you book.
When I arrived I was desperately trying to search for any indication that I made the booking and my credit card didn't even have a record. I gave up and ended up booking elsewhere.
Then all of a sudden after the first night I got charged. I was absolutely livid. I demanded an explanation. Turns out what happened was then when I first tried to book, their email form had an issue where my broswers autocomplete added the name of my email after the .com so it was [email protected]. The site rejected it and I realized the error. I hadn't entered my credit card info so I thought I was fine. I resubmitted it with the correct email and then entered my credit card info. Booking was accepted.....turns out their system somehow retained the first email and send out the confirmation to that email and they had no indication that the email bounced until the person looked up the issue AFTER they had charged me. Whats even crazier is that on the second day they emailed me first asking where I was before I could reach out to them! So they had the correct email in their records but their internal billing system captured the wrong email!
You can't win either way it seems! Fortunately I had a long email chain where they admitted their system never sent out a confirmation. my credit card company sided with me in this regard when I attempted a chargeback.
Story: After being burned multiple times via booking.com and other third party sites, I tried to book directly with the hotel. I was planning a last minute trip with multiple stops and so i just booked a hotel and forgot about it thinking that once I arrive in Ireland i'll look up the details. There was this hotel in Ireland that accepted my booking, charged my damn card the day after the first night, but never actually sent me any confirmation or any emails. When I arrived I didn't remember whatever stupid quaint name the hotel was because I had booked about two weeks prior. I guess this was my bad because I was used to a hotel freaking emailing you something when you book.
When I arrived I was desperately trying to search for any indication that I made the booking and my credit card didn't even have a record. I gave up and ended up booking elsewhere.
Then all of a sudden after the first night I got charged. I was absolutely livid. I demanded an explanation. Turns out what happened was then when I first tried to book, their email form had an issue where my broswers autocomplete added the name of my email after the .com so it was [email protected]. The site rejected it and I realized the error. I hadn't entered my credit card info so I thought I was fine. I resubmitted it with the correct email and then entered my credit card info. Booking was accepted.....turns out their system somehow retained the first email and send out the confirmation to that email and they had no indication that the email bounced until the person looked up the issue AFTER they had charged me. Whats even crazier is that on the second day they emailed me first asking where I was before I could reach out to them! So they had the correct email in their records but their internal billing system captured the wrong email!
You can't win either way it seems! Fortunately I had a long email chain where they admitted their system never sent out a confirmation. my credit card company sided with me in this regard when I attempted a chargeback.
So you literally forgot what hotel you booked... and entered the wrong email... and they emailed you anyway about the no-show, with someone probably manually fixing the address to contact you... and you're still blaming the hotel for being hard to deal with?
I'm not so sure the problems were on the hotel's end here.
I'm not so sure the problems were on the hotel's end here.
When you are used to every single hotel emailing you a confirmation you assume there will be an email. That was my mistake for assuming an email had been sent after seeing a successful confirmation on their webpage and moving onto the next booking for my trip.
Again they emailed me on the second night after I had given up and assumed that somehow the booking didn't go through.
If you can't see how this is an abnormal situation that others can fall into then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe I'm just used to a higher standard of websites accepting only correct input and properly clearing cache before they transmit data to the DB but what do I know?
Again they emailed me on the second night after I had given up and assumed that somehow the booking didn't go through.
If you can't see how this is an abnormal situation that others can fall into then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe I'm just used to a higher standard of websites accepting only correct input and properly clearing cache before they transmit data to the DB but what do I know?
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I have an eerily similar story, and a more general one.
1) I bought lift tickets for a mountain resort, and when I showed up I couldn't find the confirmation email to scan at the self-serve kiosk. I also wasn't able to find my online account portal to see my bookings, so I bought lift tickets on the spot on my phone. As soon as the transaction completed, I was redirected to the account page that I was looking for where I found my original booking. At the end of the weekend, I took up the issue at the ticket window, and got the issue resolved (mostly) to my satisfaction: they refunded me the discounted pre-order amount instead of the full-price I paid; normally they only issue an account credit, this was going above and beyond as they saw it. I believe the reason I didn't get an email the first time was that I used a gmail +tag ([email protected]) which their system accepted but didn't know how to use.
Lessons:
i) Stop using +tags with my emails, the utility of these tags (maybe tracing what company my info was leaked from) is far outweighed by the possibility of incidents like this. I don't use them to organize my email, like others do, so this habit has only cost me time, money, and stress so far.
ii) Don't be afraid to ask for help, try to talk to a human next time something like this is happening.
2) Booked a hotel through super.com because they had the lowest price. I didn't read the fine print, so when I showed up to check in, I was informed that I owed a resort fee or something that more than made up the difference. I ended up paying slightly more booking through super.com than I would have going direct.
1) I bought lift tickets for a mountain resort, and when I showed up I couldn't find the confirmation email to scan at the self-serve kiosk. I also wasn't able to find my online account portal to see my bookings, so I bought lift tickets on the spot on my phone. As soon as the transaction completed, I was redirected to the account page that I was looking for where I found my original booking. At the end of the weekend, I took up the issue at the ticket window, and got the issue resolved (mostly) to my satisfaction: they refunded me the discounted pre-order amount instead of the full-price I paid; normally they only issue an account credit, this was going above and beyond as they saw it. I believe the reason I didn't get an email the first time was that I used a gmail +tag ([email protected]) which their system accepted but didn't know how to use.
Lessons:
i) Stop using +tags with my emails, the utility of these tags (maybe tracing what company my info was leaked from) is far outweighed by the possibility of incidents like this. I don't use them to organize my email, like others do, so this habit has only cost me time, money, and stress so far.
ii) Don't be afraid to ask for help, try to talk to a human next time something like this is happening.
2) Booked a hotel through super.com because they had the lowest price. I didn't read the fine print, so when I showed up to check in, I was informed that I owed a resort fee or something that more than made up the difference. I ended up paying slightly more booking through super.com than I would have going direct.
I'm sorry you went through that. I guess this is why others probably went to the third party sites in the first place but I went to the local site to avoid the third party site and got burned. Was that the reason you booked directly or was there no other option?
>ii) Don't be afraid to ask for help, try to talk to a human next time something like this is happening.
I'd just like to clarify that in my situation I only filed a chargeback after a lengthy email chain that went back and forth for a entire day where the hotel was adamant that they would not offer any recourse, no refund, no credit, nothing.
>2) Booked a hotel through super.com because they had the lowest price. I didn't read the fine print, so when I showed up to check in, I was informed that I owed a resort fee or something that more than made up the difference. I ended up paying slightly more booking through super.com than I would have going direct.
I think everyone gets burned by this at least once in their life. These "resort fees" are a complete scam that originally were meant if you were going to use enhanced services at the property such as the pool or gym. Now thanks to years of enshittification its just part of the bill. Make it the real price then!
>ii) Don't be afraid to ask for help, try to talk to a human next time something like this is happening.
I'd just like to clarify that in my situation I only filed a chargeback after a lengthy email chain that went back and forth for a entire day where the hotel was adamant that they would not offer any recourse, no refund, no credit, nothing.
>2) Booked a hotel through super.com because they had the lowest price. I didn't read the fine print, so when I showed up to check in, I was informed that I owed a resort fee or something that more than made up the difference. I ended up paying slightly more booking through super.com than I would have going direct.
I think everyone gets burned by this at least once in their life. These "resort fees" are a complete scam that originally were meant if you were going to use enhanced services at the property such as the pool or gym. Now thanks to years of enshittification its just part of the bill. Make it the real price then!
Everyone makes fun of me for this, but this is why I carry a 1/2" binder with paperwork for every part of an overseas trip in individual plastic sleeves. When you land in a foreign country, you never know when/if your phone will start roaming, or you're waiting to buy a SIM, etc...
I'll travel with workmates or friends, and they're frantically trying to look something up, while I calmly retrieve my bulky binder, flip to the right page, and pull out the appropriate paperwork from the plastic sleeve. I highly recommend this mechanism for any complex trip.
In your case, knowing what the name of the hotel is can be very important before you even leave the airport. I've had Canadian border guards ask me very detailed questions about the nature of my trip, where I'm staying, phone numbers, etc. You could be detained in secondary if you didn't have that information handy.
I'll travel with workmates or friends, and they're frantically trying to look something up, while I calmly retrieve my bulky binder, flip to the right page, and pull out the appropriate paperwork from the plastic sleeve. I highly recommend this mechanism for any complex trip.
In your case, knowing what the name of the hotel is can be very important before you even leave the airport. I've had Canadian border guards ask me very detailed questions about the nature of my trip, where I'm staying, phone numbers, etc. You could be detained in secondary if you didn't have that information handy.
Yeah I have been burned so now I have learned my lesson. I have also been burned regarding credit cards and SIM not working overseas so I have lived and learned.
When traveling overseas for the very first time, I made sure to go to my local bank and ask them to 'enable' my account and detailed the countries I'd be going to and the duration. My bank offers no fees when using ATMs overseas but the bank charges fees for giving me foreign currency while at the the branch so I thought let me just enable my card and then get money from the ATM. I can save 5 bucks.
The same thing was done for my cell phone. My carrier (tmobile) had a different plan where you can use the phone overseas and so I thought ok let me switch over to that plan so that when I arrive I have cell service. (This was many years ago)
When I arrived (ironically in Ireland lol) my cell phone didn't work and my ATM card wouldn't work either. :/
I had to take the bus to my location and I had no money...
Thankfully Dublin airport had free WIFI and so using that + some skype credits I had, I was able to call my bank and make them enable my account and then I was able to call tmobile and have them put me on the right plan. Without that free WIFI and my quick thinking....i'd probably still be at Dublin Airport.
>Everyone makes fun of me for this, but this is why I carry a 1/2" binder with paperwork for every part of an overseas trip in individual plastic sleeves. When you land in a foreign country, you never know when/if your phone will start roaming, or you're waiting to buy a SIM, etc...
This is an excellent way to prepare and I've been doing this more since the incident but keep in mind you are paying for the cost cutting of others in paper, time and possibly frustration because you now have one more thing to taking up space that could have been allocated to something else. A more competitive market would remove these inefficiencies.
When traveling overseas for the very first time, I made sure to go to my local bank and ask them to 'enable' my account and detailed the countries I'd be going to and the duration. My bank offers no fees when using ATMs overseas but the bank charges fees for giving me foreign currency while at the the branch so I thought let me just enable my card and then get money from the ATM. I can save 5 bucks.
The same thing was done for my cell phone. My carrier (tmobile) had a different plan where you can use the phone overseas and so I thought ok let me switch over to that plan so that when I arrive I have cell service. (This was many years ago)
When I arrived (ironically in Ireland lol) my cell phone didn't work and my ATM card wouldn't work either. :/
I had to take the bus to my location and I had no money...
Thankfully Dublin airport had free WIFI and so using that + some skype credits I had, I was able to call my bank and make them enable my account and then I was able to call tmobile and have them put me on the right plan. Without that free WIFI and my quick thinking....i'd probably still be at Dublin Airport.
>Everyone makes fun of me for this, but this is why I carry a 1/2" binder with paperwork for every part of an overseas trip in individual plastic sleeves. When you land in a foreign country, you never know when/if your phone will start roaming, or you're waiting to buy a SIM, etc...
This is an excellent way to prepare and I've been doing this more since the incident but keep in mind you are paying for the cost cutting of others in paper, time and possibly frustration because you now have one more thing to taking up space that could have been allocated to something else. A more competitive market would remove these inefficiencies.
I am glad to see this has improved your travel preparation- I have learned the hard way too!
I see your point but my perspective is that this approach protects me in a potentially adversarial situation in a location where I am at a distinct disadvantage: I most likely don’t speak the language, aren’t familiar with cultural norms, and unfamiliar with the surroundings.
With paper, I can point to my reservation number or booking details unambiguously and prove my point. If they need to take the paper to someone else to verify, I’m not giving up my personal cell phone and only method of communication at the same time.
It’s like when you learn to drive: you are taught, you could be right in a traffic situation but at the end of the day, you adapt to the situation. Better to have bent to someone else who did something wrong but stay alive rather than dying “proving” your correctness.
I see your point but my perspective is that this approach protects me in a potentially adversarial situation in a location where I am at a distinct disadvantage: I most likely don’t speak the language, aren’t familiar with cultural norms, and unfamiliar with the surroundings.
With paper, I can point to my reservation number or booking details unambiguously and prove my point. If they need to take the paper to someone else to verify, I’m not giving up my personal cell phone and only method of communication at the same time.
It’s like when you learn to drive: you are taught, you could be right in a traffic situation but at the end of the day, you adapt to the situation. Better to have bent to someone else who did something wrong but stay alive rather than dying “proving” your correctness.
> or you're waiting to buy a SIM
Is there any advantage today to buying a physical SIM? Why not buy an ESIM from home just before your trip? One less thing to worry about abroad..
Is there any advantage today to buying a physical SIM? Why not buy an ESIM from home just before your trip? One less thing to worry about abroad..
I've been doing this long before eSIMs were widespread. I have traveled to locations where you can't buy an eSIM until you present physical identification in country, so that's sometimes a no-go. Plus you have no way of knowing that eSIM will function until you land... or cell coverage is too poor to use immediately, etc...
The papers that I carry with me, on the other hand, will be available regardless.
The papers that I carry with me, on the other hand, will be available regardless.
Setting aside the fact that as a consumer, not having a confirmation email is a giant red flag that would have avoided much of this... one thing that OTAs can do is interface with low-level supplier APIs to know whether/when the status of a booking has changed.
Of course, this isn't perfect, to be sure - but they sometimes do implement it well, and when working, this can give a second line of defense beyond just what's available with the hotel's own website, which often a smaller subset of information than the OTAs have access to.
Of course, this isn't perfect, to be sure - but they sometimes do implement it well, and when working, this can give a second line of defense beyond just what's available with the hotel's own website, which often a smaller subset of information than the OTAs have access to.
I feel always conflicted about expedia.
I travelled a lot with them before people pointed out that you get subpar rooms, and worse treatment. Like, a lot. 150 nights or so. And I do confirm those rumours, many subpar rooms, sleep next to elevator, that wonky corner room that is smaller than the others, ...
I liked it because it was business travel to an area without a Hilton or Mariott, so I still got some points for my personal holidays.
But now years later, I still use expedia a lot. Somehow their prices are better than what Hilton can offer, even if I call them up for a price match (because I do prefer hilton points over Expedia points). Same for IHG. Yes I get the occasional room with the broken door on the closet, and sleep next to the elevator practically alwyas, but anytime I needed support from Expedia, they came through. And I use them for personal travel if I actually have to pay for it myself
I travelled a lot with them before people pointed out that you get subpar rooms, and worse treatment. Like, a lot. 150 nights or so. And I do confirm those rumours, many subpar rooms, sleep next to elevator, that wonky corner room that is smaller than the others, ...
I liked it because it was business travel to an area without a Hilton or Mariott, so I still got some points for my personal holidays.
But now years later, I still use expedia a lot. Somehow their prices are better than what Hilton can offer, even if I call them up for a price match (because I do prefer hilton points over Expedia points). Same for IHG. Yes I get the occasional room with the broken door on the closet, and sleep next to the elevator practically alwyas, but anytime I needed support from Expedia, they came through. And I use them for personal travel if I actually have to pay for it myself
With booking.com I have customer support I can talk to, would not even touch some hotel's own half broken booking system (much less give them my payment info... nope)
Unlike hotels large airline booking systems are generally decent so I am okay with them, many are just white labelled Amadeus I think. But still, with expedia for flights I can (at least pre covid) get cancellations free of charge even if airline tariff doesn't have that, useful when applying for visa etc. But let's not talk about AirAsia, once booked with them direct and now get spammed for eternity, they don't unsub you no matter how hard you try. Had to set up a filter...
Unlike hotels large airline booking systems are generally decent so I am okay with them, many are just white labelled Amadeus I think. But still, with expedia for flights I can (at least pre covid) get cancellations free of charge even if airline tariff doesn't have that, useful when applying for visa etc. But let's not talk about AirAsia, once booked with them direct and now get spammed for eternity, they don't unsub you no matter how hard you try. Had to set up a filter...
Real world scenario:
Last year I booked 7 days at the Hilton San Francisco Financial District for a hybrid work/pleasure trip. We arrived late and really didn’t like the hotel. We checked out the next day and went to the Hilton Parc 55. The first Hilton charged us for one night when we checked out.
That simple change would have been next to impossible through a third party where I prepaid the third party and they paid the hotel. It definitely wouldn’t have been seamless
Last year I booked 7 days at the Hilton San Francisco Financial District for a hybrid work/pleasure trip. We arrived late and really didn’t like the hotel. We checked out the next day and went to the Hilton Parc 55. The first Hilton charged us for one night when we checked out.
That simple change would have been next to impossible through a third party where I prepaid the third party and they paid the hotel. It definitely wouldn’t have been seamless
Did similar a few times in the past year. There is no difference, as soon as I check in it's hotel's discretion. Some hotels are accommodating in this way, some will want to squeeze the full amount and stick to the rules.
Edited: I see that you changed length of booking, at first I misread. That's possible, especially if booking listing doesn't take a pre-payment. But generally if I am uncertain I find and book two options with easy cancellation and then cancel the other one if I like the first one (or not cancel and move the next day). Easy enough when you have one panel for all your bookings.
But I travel not in home country, in home country sure you know how stuff works you can just call your hotels or sweet talk reception staff and negotiate everything.
Edited: I see that you changed length of booking, at first I misread. That's possible, especially if booking listing doesn't take a pre-payment. But generally if I am uncertain I find and book two options with easy cancellation and then cancel the other one if I like the first one (or not cancel and move the next day). Easy enough when you have one panel for all your bookings.
But I travel not in home country, in home country sure you know how stuff works you can just call your hotels or sweet talk reception staff and negotiate everything.
> But I travel not in home country, in home country sure you know how stuff works you can just call your hotels or sweet talk reception staff and negotiate everything.
I guess the other part is that I would still use a chain hotel in my case hotels affiliated with Hilton and Hyatt. I’ve also never had to deal with a hotel that didn’t cater to Americans even outside the country - mostly Mexico.
I’m sure it would be more complicated once we start doing more overseas traveling.
I guess the other part is that I would still use a chain hotel in my case hotels affiliated with Hilton and Hyatt. I’ve also never had to deal with a hotel that didn’t cater to Americans even outside the country - mostly Mexico.
I’m sure it would be more complicated once we start doing more overseas traveling.
Seriously correct. You call the hotel to change something and they act like its not their hotel anymore. You call expidia or whatever and they tell you to talk to the hotel. Translation, never pay up front for anything that requires service at a future date.
Note I have breached this wall by doing what used to be common before 2000 before we all got a little too polite. Getting really angry and not going away. Eventually they will cave and do what they knew was fair all along. Definitely NOT worth it though.
Note I have breached this wall by doing what used to be common before 2000 before we all got a little too polite. Getting really angry and not going away. Eventually they will cave and do what they knew was fair all along. Definitely NOT worth it though.
> Translation, never pay up front for anything that requires service at a future date.
Would you say more?
For things like hotels in popular destinations, it lets me sleep at night to put down a deposit up front, I feel like it incentivizes the hotel to hold my room. Knowing the room is better secured is more important to me than money.
Now with Booking, I’ve never had them ask for a deposit. They either have me pay at the hotel, or they run my card after the “free to cancel” period expires (which is always very generous, expiring from 5 days to 1 day before my stay). This doesn’t help me sleep at night, when making bookings a month or more out, I worry that I’ll be cancelled on or be offered a lesser room than the one I booked. Fortunately I’ve only had good experiences with Booking so far, but once I have my first bad experience, I will switch to booking direct or with another platform that lets me put down a deposit up front.
Would you say more?
For things like hotels in popular destinations, it lets me sleep at night to put down a deposit up front, I feel like it incentivizes the hotel to hold my room. Knowing the room is better secured is more important to me than money.
Now with Booking, I’ve never had them ask for a deposit. They either have me pay at the hotel, or they run my card after the “free to cancel” period expires (which is always very generous, expiring from 5 days to 1 day before my stay). This doesn’t help me sleep at night, when making bookings a month or more out, I worry that I’ll be cancelled on or be offered a lesser room than the one I booked. Fortunately I’ve only had good experiences with Booking so far, but once I have my first bad experience, I will switch to booking direct or with another platform that lets me put down a deposit up front.
Pro tip: making a point of slamming a fist hard on the counter gets them to cooperate 90% of the time when they’re being difficult.
Still saves a lot of money a lot of time and I've never had a problem with a booking company and I've booked a lot of things via booking companies.
That doesn't mean I won't go to a hotel website if it's a chain I have points with or I won't avoid a booking company that looks sus.
Eventually you figure out whether you should be using a booking site or the hotel website.
That doesn't mean I won't go to a hotel website if it's a chain I have points with or I won't avoid a booking company that looks sus.
Eventually you figure out whether you should be using a booking site or the hotel website.
This party booking is the opposite of a scam. Calling it such is libelous.
Hostelworld has absolutely cornered the hostel market, with most venues signing away pricing. This allows hostelworld to equalize prices in a given location, raising them above board although occupancy is down (many empty places during the busy season) while the guests are focused in a few places (as lower rated places can't lower their prices). So for hostels, 3rd party booking is all that is left. Often, contacting them directly, they won't even know what their price is (while a few years ago they would give a discount to hostelworld, hostelbookers etc.)
The issue is agent v. merchant. Historically Expedia uses the merchant model (hood inventory, company as seller), and Booking used to prefer the agent model (no inventory, venue as seller). The former allows some advantage to what the company can offer but with added inventory risk, and means that the hotel doesn’t see you as “their” customer. With the agency model you do have recourse with the venue and will likely be a “normal” room to them. Unfortunately Booking is increasingly shifting towards the merchant model to find more profits.
This reminds my of the scams I encountered two weeks ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37447652
I recommend booking in person you will save a lot.
In an extreme example: we booked part of a trip to Greece ahead of time and part on the spot. The in-person bookings were > 75% cheaper than the pre-booked stays, and the quality was the same or better
It’s not zero risk. sometimes a hotel will be booked and you move on. But if you appreciate a little spontaneity it’s very much worthwhile
I recommend booking in person you will save a lot.
In an extreme example: we booked part of a trip to Greece ahead of time and part on the spot. The in-person bookings were > 75% cheaper than the pre-booked stays, and the quality was the same or better
It’s not zero risk. sometimes a hotel will be booked and you move on. But if you appreciate a little spontaneity it’s very much worthwhile
The interesting thing for me is that a lot of people assume Skyscanner does what Google Flights actually does... Maybe a decade or so ago it was only an aggregator or maybe it was always a booking agent that just felt more transparent at the time, so no one noticed.
As an aside, Google Flights is a fantastic — but at least in my recent experience — prices for multi-city bookings are off by 10-20% then the price quoted by the airline. Enough to make me think the taxes are just omitted or calculated differently...
As an aside, Google Flights is a fantastic — but at least in my recent experience — prices for multi-city bookings are off by 10-20% then the price quoted by the airline. Enough to make me think the taxes are just omitted or calculated differently...
Hotel pricing tools are useless if they don't include arbitrary "resort fees" hotels can spring on you when you're standing in the lobby at midnight after a full day of travel.
Travel just sucks regardless. It feels like solving this problem is harder than putting people on Mars.
There are too many bad actors in the system, nothing is really standardized so customers can't compare or new businesses can't compete 1 to 1.
Its all scams at literally every level starting with "travel influencers" > booking sites > transportation to/from airports > the airports themselves > airlines > hotels and finally > the actual activities to do when you arrive. All layers are optimized to scrape as much as they can from your wallet.
As a CS person, this unoptimized situation really grinds my gears.
There are too many bad actors in the system, nothing is really standardized so customers can't compare or new businesses can't compete 1 to 1.
Its all scams at literally every level starting with "travel influencers" > booking sites > transportation to/from airports > the airports themselves > airlines > hotels and finally > the actual activities to do when you arrive. All layers are optimized to scrape as much as they can from your wallet.
As a CS person, this unoptimized situation really grinds my gears.
Each separate party is a business trying to optimize for their own bottom-line. You said it yourself, "optimized to scrape as much as they can from your wallet." The system as it exists is a relatively organic outgrowth of the competitive marketplace. Every intervention to make it more consumer-friendly (efficient by another measure) will be gamed & circumvented by the businesses.
I don't see a way to optimize it without replacing the system that measures success/survival by personal enrichment above-all.
I don't see a way to optimize it without replacing the system that measures success/survival by personal enrichment above-all.
Everything you said is true but it is also true for every other industry. Do you not think companies selling computer RAM for example not have the same motivations? How is that industry much less frustration to deal with than what we are discussing here?
In my opinion the free market should be able to solve this issue but I think therein lies the problem. There is no 1-to-1 mapping of competitor A offering to competitor B offering and that ambiguity is where the extra is skimmed off.
The free market has beaten the RAM industry. They cannot hide behind any ambiguity. RAM stick A has many direct comparisons to RAM stick B. Yes there are still some ambiguity like brand or quality reputation but overall it is very competitive. The market sucks for companies but is great for consumers. Hence we see bankruptcies once in a while when a major error is made (ie. When Windows 8 launched many companies overproduced in anticipation of new PC sales but when OS sales flopped they went bust)
If we can solve the issue with lack of clarity of what is being offered then we can build a mapping of competitor A offering to competitor B offering but this is why I say its easier to send people to Mars.
How are you going to get that info from each competitor? Lets say you managed to get it through regulation or some other mechanism. Then you have to normalize it across competitors. You can somehow try to break it down to literal things such as room size, does it have item A,B,C and then rate it at a very granular level. But then how to do you evaluate more subjective things like the area the hotel is in?
In my opinion the free market should be able to solve this issue but I think therein lies the problem. There is no 1-to-1 mapping of competitor A offering to competitor B offering and that ambiguity is where the extra is skimmed off.
The free market has beaten the RAM industry. They cannot hide behind any ambiguity. RAM stick A has many direct comparisons to RAM stick B. Yes there are still some ambiguity like brand or quality reputation but overall it is very competitive. The market sucks for companies but is great for consumers. Hence we see bankruptcies once in a while when a major error is made (ie. When Windows 8 launched many companies overproduced in anticipation of new PC sales but when OS sales flopped they went bust)
If we can solve the issue with lack of clarity of what is being offered then we can build a mapping of competitor A offering to competitor B offering but this is why I say its easier to send people to Mars.
How are you going to get that info from each competitor? Lets say you managed to get it through regulation or some other mechanism. Then you have to normalize it across competitors. You can somehow try to break it down to literal things such as room size, does it have item A,B,C and then rate it at a very granular level. But then how to do you evaluate more subjective things like the area the hotel is in?
>Everything you said is true but it is also true for every other industry. Do you not think companies selling computer RAM for example not have the same motivations? How is that industry much less frustration to deal with than what we are discussing here?
The main difference between RAM sticks and the travel industry is that I don't get to travel around with the electrons in a RAM stick and experience the differences in signal quality and speed, but when traveling, we spend time inhabiting the products we are paying for, and we can feel the differences in quality and speed of our travel experiences.
The subtle differences between RAM sticks have real effects on the performance and longevity of a computer system, but are much harder for a human to perceive, so we don't typically don't focus on them.
>If we can solve the issue with lack of clarity of what is being offered then we can build a mapping of competitor A offering to competitor B offering but this is why I say its easier to send people to Mars.
The bigger idea I was trying to get across is that a competitive market system is not going going to be conducive to solving the problems that arise inside a competitive market system. You already intuitively know this, as you elaborate on, but since this system is as ubiquitous as the very air that we are breathing, it is not so obvious that it could be the root cause of the dysfunction we are talking about.
The main difference between RAM sticks and the travel industry is that I don't get to travel around with the electrons in a RAM stick and experience the differences in signal quality and speed, but when traveling, we spend time inhabiting the products we are paying for, and we can feel the differences in quality and speed of our travel experiences.
The subtle differences between RAM sticks have real effects on the performance and longevity of a computer system, but are much harder for a human to perceive, so we don't typically don't focus on them.
>If we can solve the issue with lack of clarity of what is being offered then we can build a mapping of competitor A offering to competitor B offering but this is why I say its easier to send people to Mars.
The bigger idea I was trying to get across is that a competitive market system is not going going to be conducive to solving the problems that arise inside a competitive market system. You already intuitively know this, as you elaborate on, but since this system is as ubiquitous as the very air that we are breathing, it is not so obvious that it could be the root cause of the dysfunction we are talking about.
My wife and I literally travel 7 months of the year flying around to different cities and staying in hotels.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36306966
It’s not that difficult. I have a primary and secondary airline (Delta and American) and a primary and secondary hotel brand (Hilton and Hyatt). I know the corresponding apps and loyalty programs inside and out.
I know what to expect when I travel. When we get to a city or before we go, we search for “top things to do in $City”.
Admittedly, this would be a bit harder once we start flying overseas and we will have to do more research. We are starting our second year and the only international travel we have planned right now are mostly within US time zones.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36306966
It’s not that difficult. I have a primary and secondary airline (Delta and American) and a primary and secondary hotel brand (Hilton and Hyatt). I know the corresponding apps and loyalty programs inside and out.
I know what to expect when I travel. When we get to a city or before we go, we search for “top things to do in $City”.
Admittedly, this would be a bit harder once we start flying overseas and we will have to do more research. We are starting our second year and the only international travel we have planned right now are mostly within US time zones.
Paying huge sums for superior brands (Delta, Hilton) is one way to solve travel. It is hard if you are on a budget.
Hilton sub brands like Homewood Suites and Home2Suites not the main Hilton brand.
In the case of Hyatt - Hyatt Place and Hyatt House.
Because I need a comfortable working space and for my wife and I not to be on top of each other, we do hotels that are targeted for extended stays. I’ve used the IHG site (Holiday Inn) once or twice. It’s not any worse than the other two.
The “cheap” airlines aren’t cheap once you add on fees. Our third choice for flights is JetBlue.
We just go to Google Flights to compare prices and then book directly
In the case of Hyatt - Hyatt Place and Hyatt House.
Because I need a comfortable working space and for my wife and I not to be on top of each other, we do hotels that are targeted for extended stays. I’ve used the IHG site (Holiday Inn) once or twice. It’s not any worse than the other two.
The “cheap” airlines aren’t cheap once you add on fees. Our third choice for flights is JetBlue.
We just go to Google Flights to compare prices and then book directly
> optimized to scrape as much as they can from your wallet.
What should they be optimized for?
What should they be optimized for?
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Competing against each other but because of the lack of 1 to 1 mapping of offerings it is really hard for consumers to differentiate so there isn't real competition.
Yeah, travel has a ton variables and risk to make it overwhelming. Trying match to match personal preferences with all the various factors (time of year, flight timing, locations, transportation options, lodging proximity and quality, food options, etc.) takes time and research. You can typically mitigate the difficulty and risk by throwing money at the problem, but most people don't have that luxury, pun intended. It is fun though, when you find budget stay with a great location, or get lucky with great weather or low crowds.
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