An Interview with Lola De La Mata about tinnitus(thequietus.com)
thequietus.com
An Interview with Lola De La Mata about tinnitus
https://thequietus.com/interviews/lola-de-la-mata-oceans-on-azimuth-tinnitus-interview/
114 comments
I have severe hyperacusis and have had tinnitus for decades. My entire life is a quest for quiet and silence. If we're going out with friends, the first thing I want to know is how loud the environment is, and if it's going to be a noisy outing, I decline. I often dream of buying a place in the backcountry because the noise and electronic resonance humming through the suburbs is terribly distracting and physically painful. I am still in the process of buying and returning kitchen appliances, trying to find a refrigerator that doesn't whine all day long.
I don't have hyperacusis or tinnitus, but I am extremely sensitive to noise, especially fans, engines, pumps, and anything else that makes percussive or resonant noise. I am fortunate to live quite remotely in the countryside, with no human sounds nearby. I have a personal policy that nothing that makes continuous noise is allowed in my house. I installed all my appliances in another structure (a root cellar) a short walk from my house. It's made all the difference!
If you live in the typical American configuration of a house with a garage that is near the kitchen, consider putting your fridge/freezer out there. Sure, it's a few steps of inconvenience, but you'll find the lack of noisy appliances a true consolation. If you really need quick access to something refrigerated, put a cooler in a corner of the kitchen, and make ice with the freezer that's in the garage.
Truly silent refrigerators exist, but you won't find them at your typical home improvement box store. (Ask me why I know this!) Look into Amish appliance suppliers. Or the tiny-house folks who've found quiet, compact absorption-based fridges.
If you live in the typical American configuration of a house with a garage that is near the kitchen, consider putting your fridge/freezer out there. Sure, it's a few steps of inconvenience, but you'll find the lack of noisy appliances a true consolation. If you really need quick access to something refrigerated, put a cooler in a corner of the kitchen, and make ice with the freezer that's in the garage.
Truly silent refrigerators exist, but you won't find them at your typical home improvement box store. (Ask me why I know this!) Look into Amish appliance suppliers. Or the tiny-house folks who've found quiet, compact absorption-based fridges.
Love this! Got any brand/model recommendations for quiet appliances?
Dometic used to have small absorption fridges. (I had one in a tiny house, and it was totally silent.) Not sure if they do nowadays. (Peltier effect fridges have taken up some of the steam these days, but I'm pretty sure those have constant-running fans.) I think Dometic is still big in the sailboat community, which is another good place to investigate.
Most propane fridges are absorption style. I don't know if they're up to code for running inside a house, but they'd probably be fine on a porch or in a garage.
Check out Lehman's (https://www.lehmans.com/category/gas-refrigerators-freezers) for a lot of alternative technology.
Otherwise, google for 'propane refrigerator' or 'gas refrigerator or 'absorption refrigerator.'
If you really want to get creative, and enjoy processing food, there's lots of fridge-free ways to preserve food, depending on the climate you live in. It's also a fun area to research and experiment with.
Oh, one more thing -- chest freezers can be converted to chest fridges with a simple thermostat-switch. As most cheap chest freezers are manual-defrost style, they tend to run their compressor less, and for whatever reason, aren't as noisy as standing fridges. I personally still wouldn't want one in my main living quarters, but as they tend to be pretty cheap to buy, it might be something to try.
Most propane fridges are absorption style. I don't know if they're up to code for running inside a house, but they'd probably be fine on a porch or in a garage.
Check out Lehman's (https://www.lehmans.com/category/gas-refrigerators-freezers) for a lot of alternative technology.
Otherwise, google for 'propane refrigerator' or 'gas refrigerator or 'absorption refrigerator.'
If you really want to get creative, and enjoy processing food, there's lots of fridge-free ways to preserve food, depending on the climate you live in. It's also a fun area to research and experiment with.
Oh, one more thing -- chest freezers can be converted to chest fridges with a simple thermostat-switch. As most cheap chest freezers are manual-defrost style, they tend to run their compressor less, and for whatever reason, aren't as noisy as standing fridges. I personally still wouldn't want one in my main living quarters, but as they tend to be pretty cheap to buy, it might be something to try.
Here's something I did to slightly improve things. Buy one of those timed switches that are usually for outdoor lighting and things like that, and use it to switch the fridge off automatically during periods you need quiet the most. Obviously not too much of the day, use good judgement. Fridges are only working (and whining) when the temperature inside rises above a certain amount. With the timer you can have a little influence over when that happens.
Pray for me as I am stuck in an apartment building with a regular 50hz hum for the foreseeable.
Pray for me as I am stuck in an apartment building with a regular 50hz hum for the foreseeable.
That sounds terrible. I'm very sensitive to inductor whine - I'm sure there are a few hotels who thought they had a schizophrenic guest based on the lengths I sometimes go through to unplug whiny power supplies in hotels - but not to the point of routinely hearing it under normal daytime conditions.
Have you considered moving to one of those places near a radio observatory where people aren't allowed to use electronics?
Have you considered moving to one of those places near a radio observatory where people aren't allowed to use electronics?
I had tremendous problem with my landlord in Urbana about that; outside my apartment there was some electrical apparatus and the whine resonated throughout, but neither he nor his wife could hear it. I had to bring a couple of young neighbors to confirm that there was a noise and until this was done he really thought I had gone insane; the good thing was that after some adjustments by the electrician the noise stopped.
Sonic pest repellants? Supposed to be ultrasonic, but some work around 13 kHz, I've heard... (Oh, and I have a roll of black PVC tape in my travel bag for taping over hotel air condition LEDs. I don't understand why they have to make them light up the entire room.)
Did you try to listen to MIT's 40Hz waves on headphones for 15-30 minutes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVne_84qZkA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVne_84qZkA
High fidelity ear plugs? That's been my go-to for years to deal with loud environments because of this. Bonus being you can actually hear people talking better. I don't think I'm as severe as you are tho.
Like? Those passive ones made by Loop? Or some active?
Okay so one's I've tried:
* Eargasm -- Do not recommend, they're really hard to get a seal, the noise protection seems worse than advertised, and if it's hot and you sweat they fall out and getting a seal again is a huge PITA.
* Etymotic ER20 -- Highly recommend, super easy to get a seal, good sound quality, good nose reduction. The only negative is they're a little hard to get used to since they go really deep in your ears and they're hard plastic. Some people it really bothers when they borrow them.
* Loop -- Also highly recommend, I would spend the extra for the thing you put in the middle that gives you the extra dB reduction. These plugs are weird AF but they sit on the outside of your ear, are very comfortable, stay sealed, and don't fall out because they use your own ear to hold it in.
* Vibes -- They had the same problems as the Eargasms for me but also reduced noise less. Might be worth for "above average loudness social event" but for actually loud events I couldn't use them.
* Any Noise Cancelling -- Hate these fuckers. I've tried so many of them but they all make me feel like I'm in an airplane and they make me hear my tinnitus worse. It's not like it's louder but something about the noise cancelling makes me focus on it more. I'm sure they're great for regular ears but they can't cancel the noise coming from inside the house.
* Dark horse pick that aren't actually high-fidelity are 3M E-A-R UltraFit Corded Ear Plugs those bright neon yellow things with the blue cord. Ugly as sin but really effective. Super cheap too. In slightly noisy environments I keep them a little bit unsealed. They're my backup for when I need more dB reduction than high-fidelity filters can provide.
I'm scheduled for an appointment with an audiologist to get the custom molded -25 dB plugs. I think the woman said they'd be like $200 but I wanted something I could take to like concert concerts.
* Eargasm -- Do not recommend, they're really hard to get a seal, the noise protection seems worse than advertised, and if it's hot and you sweat they fall out and getting a seal again is a huge PITA.
* Etymotic ER20 -- Highly recommend, super easy to get a seal, good sound quality, good nose reduction. The only negative is they're a little hard to get used to since they go really deep in your ears and they're hard plastic. Some people it really bothers when they borrow them.
* Loop -- Also highly recommend, I would spend the extra for the thing you put in the middle that gives you the extra dB reduction. These plugs are weird AF but they sit on the outside of your ear, are very comfortable, stay sealed, and don't fall out because they use your own ear to hold it in.
* Vibes -- They had the same problems as the Eargasms for me but also reduced noise less. Might be worth for "above average loudness social event" but for actually loud events I couldn't use them.
* Any Noise Cancelling -- Hate these fuckers. I've tried so many of them but they all make me feel like I'm in an airplane and they make me hear my tinnitus worse. It's not like it's louder but something about the noise cancelling makes me focus on it more. I'm sure they're great for regular ears but they can't cancel the noise coming from inside the house.
* Dark horse pick that aren't actually high-fidelity are 3M E-A-R UltraFit Corded Ear Plugs those bright neon yellow things with the blue cord. Ugly as sin but really effective. Super cheap too. In slightly noisy environments I keep them a little bit unsealed. They're my backup for when I need more dB reduction than high-fidelity filters can provide.
I'm scheduled for an appointment with an audiologist to get the custom molded -25 dB plugs. I think the woman said they'd be like $200 but I wanted something I could take to like concert concerts.
Been playing drums for 30+ years. I ended up with tinnitus after an extremely loud concert wearing Hearos, which are a brand name for Etymotic ER20s (as with all things hearing it probably was not just that concert, but that was the single point at which tinnitus started and didn't go away). After that I decided to just spend big and buy custom molded ear plugs (In my case 64audio). Even when wearing the -20db cartridges they were significantly more effective for me than the ER20s. My theory is the shape of my ear canal makes it hard to get straight plugs in to get full protection (even the foamies I can't get in far enough). Over time I have gotten used to the tinnitus and with the use of IEMs and the custom Ear plugs, which I've been using for 10 years now, my hearing hasn't gotten worse and the tinnitus levels have remained low.
+1 for the ER20s. I've got some of the early Loops (no inserts or anything fancy) which are decent enough (and can be used for sleeping in an emergency.) Also got some of the early Flare Audio titaniums which do a decent job.
(For sleeping I buy the Leight Laser Lite in bulk because anything with a stiff/solid stem tends to be uncomfortable. They also work reasonably well in gig scenarios.)
(For sleeping I buy the Leight Laser Lite in bulk because anything with a stiff/solid stem tends to be uncomfortable. They also work reasonably well in gig scenarios.)
I'm a musician, and I like the ER20's a lot. They're cheap enough that I can make sure to have a pair in each instrument case, and some spares. I find they're pretty comfortable. The part that goes in your ear is soft. There are two sizes.
Are any of those more effective than very deeply inserted
https://www.moldex.com/product/sparkplugs/
?
I feel like I am at the ansolute maximum with them, but I would always like more silence.
https://www.moldex.com/product/sparkplugs/
?
I feel like I am at the ansolute maximum with them, but I would always like more silence.
Amazing, thank you for this!
24/7 I've been putting cotton balls in my ears for a while now, takes a little to get used to the lower volume of everything else, but it really helps. I'm surprised at how loud things are at this point when I don't have them.
I wear hearing protection pretty regularly for work. It's astonishing how loud riding the subway was after becoming more attuned to loud noise and doing what I could to mitigate it. Ditto concerts. The level they turn the music up to is nuts.
I use earplugs made for sleeping (so have an emphasis on comfort over noise blockage) and that definitely helps.
Did you get custom molded ones or are there more comfortable generic earplugs?
I tried the custom molded ones and they felt more uncomfortable to me than just buying the high-end off-the-shelf "sleep" earplugs at a major retailer. They fit nicely and do block the most noise, but tend to be very rigid/inflexible, which makes them hurt when I lay down or put pressure on them. Even just stting, they start to be uncomfortable after some time.
I can't tell what brand I'm using because I (unhelpfully for this case) throw away the box and just keep them in the plastic bag they come in, but every 6 months or so I'll go to Fred Meyer, Target, or Walmart and buy a big pack of the most expensive earplugs that say "sleep" on the box :-)
I can't tell what brand I'm using because I (unhelpfully for this case) throw away the box and just keep them in the plastic bag they come in, but every 6 months or so I'll go to Fred Meyer, Target, or Walmart and buy a big pack of the most expensive earplugs that say "sleep" on the box :-)
Is your tinnitus worse when you take the cotton balls out?
Its always there, just the other noise is overwhelming. With them in, tinnitus feels much less noticeable. Plus the upside is if I really need to hear something, like a phone call, I just take them out.
Have you considered an icebox?
What's the electronic resonance from? Streetlights?
Yard tools running all day, commercial pumps and carpet cleaning vacuums in the distance (can hear them from miles away), the whine from AC compressors around the neighborhood, the resonance from the air moving through the radon piping on sides of our neighbor's houses, the CONSTANT and increasing noise from small planes, the neighbors who seem to vacuum their cars almost every other day for half the day. If my other half accidentally drops a ceramic dish on another ceramic dish my ears are ringing and painful for days.
I read this and I think that others must think that I am difficult to live with. It's not like I'm wincing all day or bitching at others to keep it down. The inside of our house is a sanctuary of silence, for the most part, after lots of trial and error with AC ducting, appliances, insulation. It's all of the other sounds that seem to sneak in through our old walls that are maddening.
I read this and I think that others must think that I am difficult to live with. It's not like I'm wincing all day or bitching at others to keep it down. The inside of our house is a sanctuary of silence, for the most part, after lots of trial and error with AC ducting, appliances, insulation. It's all of the other sounds that seem to sneak in through our old walls that are maddening.
The most mind-blowing moment, not only for De La Mata but the scientists too, came when they managed to actually record the sounds that she heard in her ears – which now appear as ‘Left Ear’ and ‘Right Ear’ which begin sides A and B on the album – and in doing so opened up questions about the nature of tinnitus itself. “The NHS definition is that it’s a phantom sound that your brain is creating, that it isn’t something ‘real’, so you should try to ignore it.” By having De La Mata place her ear into an anechoic chamber, with an ultra-sensitive microphone perched in her ear canal, they were able to provide significant evidence to the contrary. “After the first recording of it, it was ‘There’s no way, this isn’t possible.’” They tried again with her breath held, and again with her tensing her ears, and again with other members of staff, but each time it became apparent that yes, the noises De La Mata hears are seemingly something physical.
Sounds like these could be Otoacoustic Emissions
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK580483/#:~:text=Otoaco....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK580483/#:~:text=Otoaco....
I wonder whether there might be a bidirectional connection between the ear and the brain. For example, the brain creates some internal activity, which in turn stimulates the more outer components of the auditory system.
I would assume this is completely standard. The ear doctor I went to, and that guy was noone "fancy", did this and that must have been more then 10 years ago.
In my experience, they're actually playing a super high frequency gradient and it's listening for the echo/feedback. It's how they do hearing tests on newborns too.
I wouldn't be surprised if they picked up the electrical signals from the auditory part of the brain.
22 years ago I permanently damaged my left ear at a beach concert on Tortola, British Virgin Islands. I was young, drinking in the sun, and standing far too close to a concert speaker stack that was turned up way too loud. The damage started off as pain - felt like water was stuck in my ear for weeks. It's still noticeable 22 years later. I'll always regret that moment, but have come to accept it. Your ears are so fragile.
Same story for me. Water in the ear feeling for several days, except it was a punk concert and I was just young and didn't realize. Persistent low ringing in my ears ever since. Now I wear earplugs any time I'm at a concert.
I do, to an extent, blame the venues for concerts for not indicating that hearing damage is possible. At 16, it's not something you would even consider. At the bare minimum, offer earplugs when you're checking tickets. A lot of smaller, grassroots festivals do.
I do, to an extent, blame the venues for concerts for not indicating that hearing damage is possible. At 16, it's not something you would even consider. At the bare minimum, offer earplugs when you're checking tickets. A lot of smaller, grassroots festivals do.
I don't understand why these major concerts don't have disposable earplug booths. These things probably cost <1 cent to make. You could 50x markup your supply, they'd still be cheap, and attendees would still have their hearing.
For me it was a labyrinthitis. The extreme vertigo lasted about 10 days, after than it gradually faded away but I couldn't hear anything through my left ear. After the first month I was hearing what it seemed like an internal rubber band stretching for a few days, and then I got some hearing back. But that was it. I can only hear frequencies bellow 980hz
How did you even manage standing there? Disco music causes me SEVERE 11/10 shaking-twitching-must-run-away pain and anguish. With ear plugs it‘s totally fine and I enjoy the vibrations from big speakers up close.
What‘s different from me (neurodivergent?) feeling pain from loud noise and others (neurotypicals?) not?
What‘s different from me (neurodivergent?) feeling pain from loud noise and others (neurotypicals?) not?
+1 on regular Disco/Party music volume being overwhelming, also neurodivergent
As an additional data point, my neurotypical sister normally usually has volume at about 40% more than what I would comfortably use
I have a strong tinnitus, 20 years ago I asked a doctor if he could do something about it. He put his stethoscope on my skull and told me "It's weird I can hear something". Alas, he was unable to help me.
Since today I haven't thought about the contradiction between a physical and the omnipresent mantra that "Tinnitus is not something physical, it is just a noise that the brain made up".
The 'noise the brain made up' has never made much sense to me. It's more likely physical damage to the sensory mechanism in the ear. One thing that surprised me when I googled how the ear works is that there is an active amplifier mechanism in there so if that's getting feedback it could make a noise your doc could hear.
Part of the cochlear amplifier mechanism is cells which move in response to electrical signals so you can hook them to a sound system for a laugh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXgFae2r1s8
Tinnitus other people can hear has a name - objective tinnitus - and is a thing though less common than subjective tinnitus which they can't.
Vid on the cells making sounds https://youtu.be/b_3AngVJzp8?t=645
As an aside the explanations I've read of what the amplifier cells do seem wrong to me in that they say they make the sound louder. From an engineering point of view you'd imagine it would make more sense to provide negative feedback loop so the membrane doesn't move too much and overload the ion channel gate which must only have a useful movement range of a few nm.
Part of the cochlear amplifier mechanism is cells which move in response to electrical signals so you can hook them to a sound system for a laugh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXgFae2r1s8
Tinnitus other people can hear has a name - objective tinnitus - and is a thing though less common than subjective tinnitus which they can't.
Vid on the cells making sounds https://youtu.be/b_3AngVJzp8?t=645
As an aside the explanations I've read of what the amplifier cells do seem wrong to me in that they say they make the sound louder. From an engineering point of view you'd imagine it would make more sense to provide negative feedback loop so the membrane doesn't move too much and overload the ion channel gate which must only have a useful movement range of a few nm.
Didn't you see someone else? If it's physical, it should be way easier to diagnose than most.
Edit: I mean someone who specializes in hearing.
Edit: I mean someone who specializes in hearing.
No, I didn't.
It may be dumb but I had things to manage like work and children in their teens, so tinnitus management had a low priority. Still, I look avidly at discussions about tinnitus. I tried the method of tapping on the neck, but it did not work for me. I tried hearing aids, but it didn't help either.
It may be dumb but I had things to manage like work and children in their teens, so tinnitus management had a low priority. Still, I look avidly at discussions about tinnitus. I tried the method of tapping on the neck, but it did not work for me. I tried hearing aids, but it didn't help either.
I'm not a doctor, and I couldn't give you medical advice if I was, but tinnitus can be caused by health conditions you really should get checked out. High blood pressure etc.
[deleted]
How loud was your tinnitus compared to everyday noises? Mine can be masked by urban environment during the day, and my doctor never used a stethoscope on me yet.
At times I'm wondering if the Cicada emergence (17 year brood here) is masking tinnitus or if tinnitus will mask the cicadas.
As they get louder, I can easily hear them over tinnitus. The cicada sound itself is interesting. Distant ones combine to make a sort of steady hum, almost a whistling noise. Ones that are close by make a distinctive sharp wavering buzzing noise. The sounds are distinctive and there doesn't seem to be any in between.
As they get louder, I can easily hear them over tinnitus. The cicada sound itself is interesting. Distant ones combine to make a sort of steady hum, almost a whistling noise. Ones that are close by make a distinctive sharp wavering buzzing noise. The sounds are distinctive and there doesn't seem to be any in between.
It's very loud, at least it's my impression. It's louder when I am tired, or after listening to some music.
> It's louder when I am tired
I have the same. So much so that I now rely on its intensity when I wake up to gauge how well I slept at night.
I have the same. So much so that I now rely on its intensity when I wake up to gauge how well I slept at night.
I get tinnitus when it's really quiet and it feels a lot like my brain is just turning up the gain so much it picks up the noise floor.
Some audio cleaning tools can do the same if applied incorrectly.
It makes sense hearing loss would make this worse. Less signal more gain needs to be applied.
Some audio cleaning tools can do the same if applied incorrectly.
It makes sense hearing loss would make this worse. Less signal more gain needs to be applied.
If you're young and are lucky enough to not have tinnitus, here are the pros and cons of a lifetime of good audio hygiene. I'm old and retired and don't have it. My ears are incredibly important: would much rather be deaf than blind.
I love loud music right down to my core, but when I was in my early 20s it was already clear that many of my musical heroes were going deaf. The general rule is not to listen to anything in your headphones so loud that you can't detect conversation nearby. Another principle is if people can your music on headphones from more than a yard or two away, it's too loud.
So what it cost me was not cranking up my favorite music when listening. I grew accustomed a much lower volume than I enjoy. It wasn't hard, like getting used to decaf coffee or Diet Coke over sugary Coke. I go to a few concerts a year and don't ear earplugs.
Overall it's been very worth it and the cost has been minimal.
I love loud music right down to my core, but when I was in my early 20s it was already clear that many of my musical heroes were going deaf. The general rule is not to listen to anything in your headphones so loud that you can't detect conversation nearby. Another principle is if people can your music on headphones from more than a yard or two away, it's too loud.
So what it cost me was not cranking up my favorite music when listening. I grew accustomed a much lower volume than I enjoy. It wasn't hard, like getting used to decaf coffee or Diet Coke over sugary Coke. I go to a few concerts a year and don't ear earplugs.
Overall it's been very worth it and the cost has been minimal.
I suspect you might still have to keep training your ears though.
I mean instead of sitting in silence, use your ears to hear conversations, to locate things in space, to discern things.
A friend had ear problems, and he delayed getting a hearing aid for years. He said he lost the ability to discern conversations because he put things off too long.
I mean instead of sitting in silence, use your ears to hear conversations, to locate things in space, to discern things.
A friend had ear problems, and he delayed getting a hearing aid for years. He said he lost the ability to discern conversations because he put things off too long.
Bizarre but I guess predictable you need something like physical therapy for your hearing
> low floating tones would cover [other people’s] speech
This is not my experience. I've had tinnitus my entire life, and it's more of a phantom sound (cf. phantom limb) than a something that competes with sounds in the real world. That is, if there is any real noise like speech it basically gets muted. In a completely quiet environment however the ringing sensation can be comparable to high pitch TV static. The quieter the environment, the louder it gets.
This is not my experience. I've had tinnitus my entire life, and it's more of a phantom sound (cf. phantom limb) than a something that competes with sounds in the real world. That is, if there is any real noise like speech it basically gets muted. In a completely quiet environment however the ringing sensation can be comparable to high pitch TV static. The quieter the environment, the louder it gets.
Same experience. When I was a little kid, I thought the high-pitched whine was just what “silence” sounded like.
My wild hair theory is that it could be due to sleeping with a fan on every night. Looking back, it seems like I always had a box fan, oscillating fan, or ceiling fan running at night. So that's 8 hours of auditory exposure to the same constant frequencies, every night for many years.
Exact same for me. I played drums in rock bands for years, the first few of which I used no ear protection. It's a miracle my tinnitus isn't worse.
I don't notice it in normal day to day life, but at night when it's quiet at bedtime, it manifests as a high pitched ringing in both ears. For this reason I prefer to run a fan or something that generates white noise at night, which masks it somewhat.
I don't notice it in normal day to day life, but at night when it's quiet at bedtime, it manifests as a high pitched ringing in both ears. For this reason I prefer to run a fan or something that generates white noise at night, which masks it somewhat.
I used to feel that way but now I find it really hard to tell if the dog is crying in the next room or I'm imagining stuff in the tinnitus. my partner at this point is already well aware of the dog
Ah, yes exactly the same for me (the description of the sound), for the it started in my twenties though
I think it was Hugo Zucarelli, the inventor of Holophonics, the recording system used for albums by Roger Waters and Pink Floyd, who discovered that the human ear generates a sound of a specific frequency which it uses through interference to discern the spatial location of a sound source. This has always been a mystery as to how, besides knowing if a sound is to our left or right, we can also tell if it comes from behind or in front of us, above or below us, which should be impossible with just two ears on the sides of our head.
wow, would that be one frequency in one ear, one in the other?
When it’s super quiet I hear a constant high pitch sound and there is nothing I can do get rid of it.
But I don’t care about it. I wonder if I have a tinnitus or not.
But I don’t care about it. I wonder if I have a tinnitus or not.
This is a form of tinnitus
Yeah! I have had this as far back as I can remember, and recently found out that (I think) it's tinnitus.
Interestingly enough, it doesn't really bother me unless I'm seeking it out, so I wonder if my young brain just adapted to it.
Another weird fact about me is that I can hear things (I'm 35) that lots of people can't. I can definitely hear switching power supplies in everything (well, almost everything - really high quality electronics mostly seem to be exempt). I also know when bats are around, because I can hear a "clicking" noise from whatever their echolocation-producing organ is. I don't think I can hear the echolocation itself, but there is a very distinctive clicking that they make in the process.
Interestingly enough, it doesn't really bother me unless I'm seeking it out, so I wonder if my young brain just adapted to it.
Another weird fact about me is that I can hear things (I'm 35) that lots of people can't. I can definitely hear switching power supplies in everything (well, almost everything - really high quality electronics mostly seem to be exempt). I also know when bats are around, because I can hear a "clicking" noise from whatever their echolocation-producing organ is. I don't think I can hear the echolocation itself, but there is a very distinctive clicking that they make in the process.
I’m the same age, and also seem to have heightened hearing at this range. I went to an audiologist for a tinnitus flare up, and did an ultra high frequency hearing test, which confirmed I had abnormally good hearing at 8-16k.
He told me that many audiologists in this specialty believe there is a class of people with sensitive hearing, who are more perceptive to threshold changes in hearing (hence tinnitus). But there’s been no real research on it.
I’m not sure to what extent I believe it (given audiology is somewhere close to physiotherapy in terms of rigour)
He told me that many audiologists in this specialty believe there is a class of people with sensitive hearing, who are more perceptive to threshold changes in hearing (hence tinnitus). But there’s been no real research on it.
I’m not sure to what extent I believe it (given audiology is somewhere close to physiotherapy in terms of rigour)
For what is worth, my situation is exactly the same. Although I never noticed if I can hear bats
Cool. Maybe resonance with their echolocation waves.
Tinnitus can also be caused by tumour (Vestibular schwannoma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestibular_schwannoma). I sometimes hear high pitched sound (like hiss) in my left ear and have hearing loss of higher frequencies. I was luckily that it was discovered at MRI with contrast. You can treat it with gamma knife ( Radiosurgery ), but sadly in my case it quite near the nerve, so I can't do it, but lucky it is too small for surgery and isn't malignant. So currently I have to simply go to MRI yearly and observe.
(After party i got quite sick with bacterial infection, and that caused me to go few doctors, one I think sixth doctor audiologist recommended to me MRI, as this is quite rare)
(After party i got quite sick with bacterial infection, and that caused me to go few doctors, one I think sixth doctor audiologist recommended to me MRI, as this is quite rare)
The mere mention of tinnitus and suddenly I hear the high pitched sound in my head. I wonder if it’s this way for others?
Yes, I didn't hear anything until I read this post, and now it won't go away!
Yes, same here. I don't notice it until I do.
Yeah, same. I think for me, this is due to focus. Similarly, when someone says, "Don't think of a beach ball." What do you do?
Yeah and it gets stronger as you read more about it
I thought this sounded like BS, so I looked a bit more closely into ear physiology.
You obviously need some kind of energy source (either an active amplifier or a noisy pump source) to have resonances that can be recorded. What would that be for tinnitus? Blood flow noise?
Well it turns out that there is thought to be active amplification in mammalian ears, via the outer hair cells. They have some sort of active motor protein setup that is thought to physically amplify incoming sounds. So you can get a self-sustaining resonance that way. A healthy ear will emit sounds from spurious or resonant activation of these motor proteins.
Apparently this is thought to cause a minority of cases of tinnitus.
I looked into if I could buy probe microphones to test my own ears. Looks like Etymotic sells a couple in the $1500 range (as of the mid-90s), presumably more expensive now. Couldn't find any good deals on used lab-grade probe microphones online.
You obviously need some kind of energy source (either an active amplifier or a noisy pump source) to have resonances that can be recorded. What would that be for tinnitus? Blood flow noise?
Well it turns out that there is thought to be active amplification in mammalian ears, via the outer hair cells. They have some sort of active motor protein setup that is thought to physically amplify incoming sounds. So you can get a self-sustaining resonance that way. A healthy ear will emit sounds from spurious or resonant activation of these motor proteins.
Apparently this is thought to cause a minority of cases of tinnitus.
I looked into if I could buy probe microphones to test my own ears. Looks like Etymotic sells a couple in the $1500 range (as of the mid-90s), presumably more expensive now. Couldn't find any good deals on used lab-grade probe microphones online.
If there's a literal sound, then with sufficiently sensitive microphones it should be possible to triangulate the sound and cauterize the source? Or maybe just glue it so it can't vibrate?
As someone else on the thread hypothesized what seems like the likely explanation to me, is that the tinnitus is always there, but as your hearing degrades your brain adjusts the gain up to maintain equilibrium in a noisy environment but this amplifies the otherwise ambient noise of how your ear works into a noticeable signal.
I don’t think cauterization is the answer.
I don’t think cauterization is the answer.
Certainly plausible, but considering both the apparent low volume and high frequency of tinnitus it should be possible to mechanically damp the tinnitus sound below threshold w/o grossly affecting hearing. In any case it's a straightforward hypothesis to test and I can't imagine there'd be a lack of volunteers.
The ringing in my ears has always sounded like the high-voltage flyback inside old CRT tvs/monitors. Maybe I spent too long around them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyback_converter
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyback_converter
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I had tinnitus? for several years, which might have been some kind of TMJ thing or pinched nerve. I recently wore an ALF appliance to fix sleep apnea and to correct a twisted bite from maybe sleeping on headgear on one side as a child, and thankfully the ringing went away. It sounded like the whine after an explosion in movies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VePV-gsNBNc
I feel like maybe the brain fills in the missing frequencies from damaged hair cells or pinched nerves and hallucinates the sound. Like in this Coke can red-cyan color illusion:
https://www.reddit.com/r/opticalillusions/comments/1cc8cwp/c...
Reddit regrettably makes it hard to link directly to images, so here's one you can zoom yourself with command/control +/- for proof:
https://gagadget.com/en/446542-a-photo-of-a-coca-cola-can-th...
Maybe a hearing aid could be set up to amplify the frequencies near the whine and dampen the rest. Kind of like adding cyan to the can so that it no longer appears red. Or removing cyan from the surrounding image.
I just tried doing a deep dive on how hair cells work, but I'm just seeing a bunch of research papers. It mainly says that they don't grow back after dying. I thought that the frequency they detected was based on their location in the cochlea, but it sounds like they have a random distribution of resonant frequencies instead.
Maybe gene therapy could be used to increase or re-roll the hair cell randomness so that other cells could take over for the missing ones. Or maybe a drug could make them grow or shrink slightly at random to change their resonant frequencies, like how eating biotin makes your hair grow.
Knowing nothing about this, I wish there was a way for people who geek out on stuff to be able to solve a bunch of random problems and make rent, like in a think tank. I get so bored and tired of working on the same old CRUD apps day after day as tech gets more marginalized with ever-increasing workload for the same pay.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VePV-gsNBNc
I feel like maybe the brain fills in the missing frequencies from damaged hair cells or pinched nerves and hallucinates the sound. Like in this Coke can red-cyan color illusion:
https://www.reddit.com/r/opticalillusions/comments/1cc8cwp/c...
Reddit regrettably makes it hard to link directly to images, so here's one you can zoom yourself with command/control +/- for proof:
https://gagadget.com/en/446542-a-photo-of-a-coca-cola-can-th...
Maybe a hearing aid could be set up to amplify the frequencies near the whine and dampen the rest. Kind of like adding cyan to the can so that it no longer appears red. Or removing cyan from the surrounding image.
I just tried doing a deep dive on how hair cells work, but I'm just seeing a bunch of research papers. It mainly says that they don't grow back after dying. I thought that the frequency they detected was based on their location in the cochlea, but it sounds like they have a random distribution of resonant frequencies instead.
Maybe gene therapy could be used to increase or re-roll the hair cell randomness so that other cells could take over for the missing ones. Or maybe a drug could make them grow or shrink slightly at random to change their resonant frequencies, like how eating biotin makes your hair grow.
Knowing nothing about this, I wish there was a way for people who geek out on stuff to be able to solve a bunch of random problems and make rent, like in a think tank. I get so bored and tired of working on the same old CRUD apps day after day as tech gets more marginalized with ever-increasing workload for the same pay.
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I hate this article, yet there might be something real here.
On the cover, this article looks like pesudo-scientific hogwash and a marketing puff piece for some artist's album. It drones on and on.
But this morsel could be absolutely groundbreaking if true:
> The most mind-blowing moment, not only for De La Mata but the scientists too, came when they managed to actually record the sounds that she heard in her ears – which now appear as ‘Left Ear’ and ‘Right Ear’ which begin sides A and B on the album – and in doing so opened up questions about the nature of tinnitus itself. “The NHS definition is that it’s a phantom sound that your brain is creating, that it isn’t something ‘real’, so you should try to ignore it.” By having De La Mata place her ear into an anechoic chamber, with an ultra-sensitive microphone perched in her ear canal, they were able to provide significant evidence to the contrary. “After the first recording of it, it was ‘There’s no way, this isn’t possible.’” They tried again with her breath held, and again with her tensing her ears, and again with other members of staff, but each time it became apparent that yes, the noises De La Mata hears are seemingly something physical.
Is this actually real, or was this made up? Was it simply amplified blood flow, CSF, or some other biological and unrelated phenomena? Is anyone looking into this?
This is the absolutely wrong window dressing and treatment for this kind of news and investigation. This shouldn't be puffed up marketing, but should instead be in scientific news circles and in the hands of principal investigators.
I'm skeptical, but maybe there's a valid line of research here that could result in a treatment for lots of impacted people.
On the cover, this article looks like pesudo-scientific hogwash and a marketing puff piece for some artist's album. It drones on and on.
But this morsel could be absolutely groundbreaking if true:
> The most mind-blowing moment, not only for De La Mata but the scientists too, came when they managed to actually record the sounds that she heard in her ears – which now appear as ‘Left Ear’ and ‘Right Ear’ which begin sides A and B on the album – and in doing so opened up questions about the nature of tinnitus itself. “The NHS definition is that it’s a phantom sound that your brain is creating, that it isn’t something ‘real’, so you should try to ignore it.” By having De La Mata place her ear into an anechoic chamber, with an ultra-sensitive microphone perched in her ear canal, they were able to provide significant evidence to the contrary. “After the first recording of it, it was ‘There’s no way, this isn’t possible.’” They tried again with her breath held, and again with her tensing her ears, and again with other members of staff, but each time it became apparent that yes, the noises De La Mata hears are seemingly something physical.
Is this actually real, or was this made up? Was it simply amplified blood flow, CSF, or some other biological and unrelated phenomena? Is anyone looking into this?
This is the absolutely wrong window dressing and treatment for this kind of news and investigation. This shouldn't be puffed up marketing, but should instead be in scientific news circles and in the hands of principal investigators.
I'm skeptical, but maybe there's a valid line of research here that could result in a treatment for lots of impacted people.
The article is long (but interesting!) and a lot of it isn't about the particular scientific discovery in the headline.
Here's the part that describes the discovery:
> The most mind-blowing moment, not only for De La Mata but the scientists too, came when they managed to actually record the sounds that she heard in her ears – which now appear as ‘Left Ear’ and ‘Right Ear’ which begin sides A and B on the album – and in doing so opened up questions about the nature of tinnitus itself. “The NHS definition is that it’s a phantom sound that your brain is creating, that it isn’t something ‘real’, so you should try to ignore it.” By having De La Mata place her ear into an anechoic chamber, with an ultra-sensitive microphone perched in her ear canal, they were able to provide significant evidence to the contrary. “After the first recording of it, it was ‘There’s no way, this isn’t possible.’” They tried again with her breath held, and again with her tensing her ears, and again with other members of staff, but each time it became apparent that yes, the noises De La Mata hears are seemingly something physical. More intriguingly still, the two women whose ears were recorded, De La Mata and Lana Norris – the musicologist whose voice appears on the album’s ‘PINK Noise’, and who is also a choral director – were the only two people whose ears were found to produce spontaneous otoacoustic emissions. “It’s something to do with hormone difference, but they don’t really know why,” De La Mata says. Present in most children but believed to fade over time, they’re also found far more in musicians than in other adults, for reasons yet unknown. It all raises a lot of questions. “What I have is tinnitus by the definition we have now, but maybe that’s not correct. Maybe it’s something else,” De La Mata wonders aloud.
Is there an academic followup to this? I would imagine that this is a pretty major anatomical/medical discovery and that the discoverers would want to write a paper about it.
Here's the part that describes the discovery:
> The most mind-blowing moment, not only for De La Mata but the scientists too, came when they managed to actually record the sounds that she heard in her ears – which now appear as ‘Left Ear’ and ‘Right Ear’ which begin sides A and B on the album – and in doing so opened up questions about the nature of tinnitus itself. “The NHS definition is that it’s a phantom sound that your brain is creating, that it isn’t something ‘real’, so you should try to ignore it.” By having De La Mata place her ear into an anechoic chamber, with an ultra-sensitive microphone perched in her ear canal, they were able to provide significant evidence to the contrary. “After the first recording of it, it was ‘There’s no way, this isn’t possible.’” They tried again with her breath held, and again with her tensing her ears, and again with other members of staff, but each time it became apparent that yes, the noises De La Mata hears are seemingly something physical. More intriguingly still, the two women whose ears were recorded, De La Mata and Lana Norris – the musicologist whose voice appears on the album’s ‘PINK Noise’, and who is also a choral director – were the only two people whose ears were found to produce spontaneous otoacoustic emissions. “It’s something to do with hormone difference, but they don’t really know why,” De La Mata says. Present in most children but believed to fade over time, they’re also found far more in musicians than in other adults, for reasons yet unknown. It all raises a lot of questions. “What I have is tinnitus by the definition we have now, but maybe that’s not correct. Maybe it’s something else,” De La Mata wonders aloud.
Is there an academic followup to this? I would imagine that this is a pretty major anatomical/medical discovery and that the discoverers would want to write a paper about it.
From some quick reading I don't think this is a new discovery, there is even a name for it "objective tinnitus". Here's a case study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4922963/
What I would like to understand is the logic that says in some cases we see a physical noise being created by the ear, yet we conclude this is a tiny minority of cases, with all the rest being some issue with neural processing. As opposed to thinking we just don’t have a sensitive enough measurement in those other cases. I can’t find this logic in a casual search. References anyone?
I've had tinnitus for many decades, when I first went to a doctor for it around 30 years ago he told me that in some cases it was an actual sound that other people could hear. He checked and he couldn't hear mine. Although I did consider the possibility that he was just putting me on.
And more generally: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otoacoustic_emission
The submitted title was "First recording of tinnitus raises new questions". We've changed it to what the article says now. (edit: well, I added the bit about tinnitus, in a concession to the already existing thread. If someone has a better title suggestion, preferably using representative language from the article, we can change it again.)
"Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
"Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
That's fascinating. So I guess the sound must be produced by something in the body; blood flow would be my guess. And then the structure of the ear is maybe amplifying it?
Thanks for summarizing that. I have mild tinnitus that comes and goes so I wanted to get the important info. Instead the article goes on and on like a lifestyle article.
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This has been known for a long time, I’m not sure why it’s being reported on as if it’s a new discovery
EDIT why the downvotes? I’m honestly on the edge of deleting my account here at this point
EDIT why the downvotes? I’m honestly on the edge of deleting my account here at this point
It's easy to say "this is old news" but as a non-expert, I have no idea if you are an expert, or just some random blowhard.
I did a quick search but, once again, as a non-expert, I have no idea what to search for and don't see any solid results showing one way or another. I didn't downvote you, but if you make a claim and back it up with an interesting link, that tends to do a lot better.
I did a quick search but, once again, as a non-expert, I have no idea what to search for and don't see any solid results showing one way or another. I didn't downvote you, but if you make a claim and back it up with an interesting link, that tends to do a lot better.
Google “objective tinnitus”
I find I get downvoted for being negative/critical and upvoted when I add something to the conversation.
I added something to the conversation by critique, and also bringing to the knowledge of others that objective tinnitus is not a novel discovery
I modded this up because of the discussion regarding that tinnitus in at least some form might be an actual physically observable phenomenon. As for the article itself I saw a wall of foofy "longread for elite intellectuals" style text and skipped it entirely. Looking forward to some more meat and potatoes stories on this possible phenomenon.