California to impose permanent water restrictions on cities and towns(ktla.com)
ktla.com
California to impose permanent water restrictions on cities and towns
https://ktla.com/news/california/california-to-impose-permanent-water-restrictions-on-cities-and-towns/
103 comments
Someone somewhere is going to do a study on the effectiveness of this propaganda. I think it must be cognitive dissonance. Animal agriculture uses almost ten times the amount of water and land usage than plant agriculture on average. No, almonds aren't the problem. Cows are. They use more land. They use more water. The emit more green house gases.
This is a coordinated effort by the beef/dairy industry to blame anyone but themselves and the people who consume their products are happy to pass the blame. If you actually care about water usage, go after the people who are using the most water, not physiologically convenient scapegoats.
This is a coordinated effort by the beef/dairy industry to blame anyone but themselves and the people who consume their products are happy to pass the blame. If you actually care about water usage, go after the people who are using the most water, not physiologically convenient scapegoats.
https://www.desertsun.com/story/opinion/contributors/valley-...
Alfalfa is used to feed farm animals like pigs and cows. But we export 70% of what we grow in California to Japan and China. The Japanese raise Kobe beef with it and send it back to us for $200 per pound. The Chinese use it to raise pigs to meet their rapidly expanding demand for pork as they become more affluent and eat more meat.
Why don’t they grow their own alfalfa? Because they are short of water and it is so much cheaper to buy ours. In fact, alfalfa has become an instrument for exporting subsidized water.
Alfalfa is used to feed farm animals like pigs and cows. But we export 70% of what we grow in California to Japan and China. The Japanese raise Kobe beef with it and send it back to us for $200 per pound. The Chinese use it to raise pigs to meet their rapidly expanding demand for pork as they become more affluent and eat more meat.
Why don’t they grow their own alfalfa? Because they are short of water and it is so much cheaper to buy ours. In fact, alfalfa has become an instrument for exporting subsidized water.
>Why don’t they grow their own alfalfa? Because they are short of water
In Japan's case it's because they are short on land owing to the fact they're on small islands, of which the inland areas are mostly mountains. They have limitless water.
In Japan's case it's because they are short on land owing to the fact they're on small islands, of which the inland areas are mostly mountains. They have limitless water.
Last time I checked you can't irrigate with salt water and the process of desalination is expensive at scale. I don't know how much fresh water their climate has, but it's definitely not "limitless"
Japan has about 10x the amount of freshwater as California, California is a desert with very little freshwater, most places has way more, even islands like Japan.
That doesn't really negate my point, but it does mean it's less relevant to the discussion. Northern California is not really a desert though, which is where the majority of the agriculture is, no?
There is a huge amount of agriculture in the California desert in the south around the Salton Sea. The "sea" itself was created by accident when the Colorado River irrigation channel broke and the river was diverted into the Salton Sink over 100 years ago. It has shrank in size but agricultural runoff keeps it from completely drying. It is also full of pesticide and fertilizer residue.
Take a look at the google satellite view
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Nc1Pno74iYmQBERKA
The Central Valley extends north to Sacramento and there are crops grown through the entire area but the far south is so warm even in winter that they can grow crops year round. A large amount of vegetables that people in the US eat in winter come from this area.
Take a look at the google satellite view
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Nc1Pno74iYmQBERKA
The Central Valley extends north to Sacramento and there are crops grown through the entire area but the far south is so warm even in winter that they can grow crops year round. A large amount of vegetables that people in the US eat in winter come from this area.
A running joke in Japan, as a country with practically no natural resources (read: oil, minerals, precious metals), is that the one natural resource they do have tons of is fresh water.
Consider that the Japanese find water so mundane they think nothing of using it disposably to make instant yakisoba (chow mein).
Consider that the Japanese find water so mundane they think nothing of using it disposably to make instant yakisoba (chow mein).
Industrial feed lots are the problem to be more specific. We can't lump together all ways animals can be raised and say cows are the problem when the real culprit is one method of raising cattle.
I raise cattle on pasture and 95% of the time they're drinking from our ponds that are filled by a combination of rainwater and natural springs.
Cows aren't the problem. Industrial cattle production based on feedlots and an insanely centralized infrastructure is.
I raise cattle on pasture and 95% of the time they're drinking from our ponds that are filled by a combination of rainwater and natural springs.
Cows aren't the problem. Industrial cattle production based on feedlots and an insanely centralized infrastructure is.
The stat GP is alluding to isn’t even about drinking water, it’s mostly about the water required to grow feed.
Thanks, I may have just misread that. I have the same argument though. For our cattle we give very little feed, depending on the time of year their diet will only have 5-10% supplemental feed, and that's just enough to keep them trained to come when called.
We've kept stock density at a rate that our cattle can eat almost entirely from our pastures and woods. If we absolutely do have to buy hay, we buy it from a local guy who has a field he doesn't spray or irrigate. Its effectively a field behind his house that he otherwise doesn't use for hay, most people around here want sprayed and fertilized fields that are monocropped fescue or bahia.
We aren't doing everything right by any means, but cows absolutely can be raised without causing so many of the problems that industrial lots cause. Its too easy to see those problems and demonize everything about raising cattle.
We've kept stock density at a rate that our cattle can eat almost entirely from our pastures and woods. If we absolutely do have to buy hay, we buy it from a local guy who has a field he doesn't spray or irrigate. Its effectively a field behind his house that he otherwise doesn't use for hay, most people around here want sprayed and fertilized fields that are monocropped fescue or bahia.
We aren't doing everything right by any means, but cows absolutely can be raised without causing so many of the problems that industrial lots cause. Its too easy to see those problems and demonize everything about raising cattle.
Totally, I think we're making the same point. The average water intensity of livestock does not matter; what does matter is how much of that demand is met by water that could otherwise be withdrawn for human use.
Analyzing the industry is tricky, though - do you sell to a feedlot, or raise on pasture to slaughter? (Most cow/calf operations sell to a feedlot, but you sound like you may be keeping them all the way?)
The drawback to fully pasture-raised is more methane, of course, but.. I've got no idea how to put that on a reasonable comparison to water use.
The drawback to fully pasture-raised is more methane, of course, but.. I've got no idea how to put that on a reasonable comparison to water use.
That's correct, we raise them here from breeding to slaughter. In an ideal world we would slaughter and process on site as well, more for animal welfare and quality of the final meat. Today that is only possible when selling cow shares though, we can't legally process on site and sell cuts of meat locally.
The methane question has always been an interesting one to me. I've honestly never been able to fin compelling research that I felt confident in the unbiased approach to both the study itself and the interpretation of results. Climate change has been a political debate for so long that I really don't know what studies there to trust.
St the end of the day cows do in fact fart. Is that a problem? Is it a problem only under certain conditions, like high stock density? Is the problem that we have outgrown our cage and the planet can't sustain 8 billion humans, regardless of what they eat? I don't know the answer there and doubt anyone who claims to, but I do know that our cattle and pastures are extremely healthy with very little input.
The methane question has always been an interesting one to me. I've honestly never been able to fin compelling research that I felt confident in the unbiased approach to both the study itself and the interpretation of results. Climate change has been a political debate for so long that I really don't know what studies there to trust.
St the end of the day cows do in fact fart. Is that a problem? Is it a problem only under certain conditions, like high stock density? Is the problem that we have outgrown our cage and the planet can't sustain 8 billion humans, regardless of what they eat? I don't know the answer there and doubt anyone who claims to, but I do know that our cattle and pastures are extremely healthy with very little input.
That's cool and rare. (And yes, the centralization of meatpacking is a big challenge. It makes sense economically and simultaneously has some bad effects.)
I think the amount of methane produced on forage is reasonably well-quantified, though there's definitely a question of how you "bill" the methane in terms of contribution to climate change in terms of CO2e given the different breakdown times. In general, it's probably a problem -- but other ruminants burp as well, and if it's not cattle grazing, it was bison. Arguably, we'd be much better off if we reduced our beef consumption to the level we could manage pasture-raised, which would hold pasture methane constant and reduce the feedlot co2 (and nitrogen runoff).
I think the amount of methane produced on forage is reasonably well-quantified, though there's definitely a question of how you "bill" the methane in terms of contribution to climate change in terms of CO2e given the different breakdown times. In general, it's probably a problem -- but other ruminants burp as well, and if it's not cattle grazing, it was bison. Arguably, we'd be much better off if we reduced our beef consumption to the level we could manage pasture-raised, which would hold pasture methane constant and reduce the feedlot co2 (and nitrogen runoff).
> Arguably, we'd be much better off if we reduced our beef consumption to the level we could manage pasture-raised, which would hold pasture methane constant and reduce the feedlot co2 (and nitrogen runoff).
I'd love to see more locally raised meat, and I assume that would also have a side effect of reduced meat consumption. We've heavily subsidized the industry and so few people are involved at all with the meat industry that we've lost an understanding of what it even takes to raise animals or process them for meat. Farming in general is not a viable business today, anyone doing it to make a living eeks by primarily on government subsidies.
When you can truly know your farmer and can even go see how the animals are raise it changes the whole situation. Its a ton of work no matter how the animals are raised or processed, when done in the centralized feedlot way its also largely a disgusting process that most people would consider immoral and akin to torture.
When you can know your farmer because the meat you do eat is raised primarily on local pasture, I can only assume the risks of methane would be drastically reduced. Lower stocking density, plant life among the animals, and microbial activity decomposing waste in place has to make a huge dent in emissions caused today, from methane gas to fuel emissions used in a larger operation.
I'd love to see more locally raised meat, and I assume that would also have a side effect of reduced meat consumption. We've heavily subsidized the industry and so few people are involved at all with the meat industry that we've lost an understanding of what it even takes to raise animals or process them for meat. Farming in general is not a viable business today, anyone doing it to make a living eeks by primarily on government subsidies.
When you can truly know your farmer and can even go see how the animals are raise it changes the whole situation. Its a ton of work no matter how the animals are raised or processed, when done in the centralized feedlot way its also largely a disgusting process that most people would consider immoral and akin to torture.
When you can know your farmer because the meat you do eat is raised primarily on local pasture, I can only assume the risks of methane would be drastically reduced. Lower stocking density, plant life among the animals, and microbial activity decomposing waste in place has to make a huge dent in emissions caused today, from methane gas to fuel emissions used in a larger operation.
A calorie of beef requires more total input water than a calorie of grain, sure, but that input water is mostly embodied in their feed, not their drinking water.
The question for California a what to grow with the water we have, where it is (or where it can be moved). An acre of cows is a much, much less water intensive than an acre of grains. More acres in pasture might produce more water intensive calories, but that input water does not necessarily have to be provided in CA where it’s rivalrous with 50m humans. Feed can be imported/exported with orders of magnitude more ease than the underlying embodied input water. Agricultural water is not a fungible resource at the national/global scale, crops and animal products are.
Also as a matter of policy “turn the world vegan so global ag is less water intensive so CA farms don’t compete with CA people for water as much” is a bit harder to implement than restricting specific water intensive land uses in the Central Valley.
The question for California a what to grow with the water we have, where it is (or where it can be moved). An acre of cows is a much, much less water intensive than an acre of grains. More acres in pasture might produce more water intensive calories, but that input water does not necessarily have to be provided in CA where it’s rivalrous with 50m humans. Feed can be imported/exported with orders of magnitude more ease than the underlying embodied input water. Agricultural water is not a fungible resource at the national/global scale, crops and animal products are.
Also as a matter of policy “turn the world vegan so global ag is less water intensive so CA farms don’t compete with CA people for water as much” is a bit harder to implement than restricting specific water intensive land uses in the Central Valley.
>but that input water is mostly embodied in their feed, not their drinking water.
So? The feed doesn't magically appear. It requires water. That's the entire point.
So? The feed doesn't magically appear. It requires water. That's the entire point.
At a base level, the claim that water intensity of livestock is more to blame for CA water issues does not seem to be supported. Water use for livestock, feed, and silage is about ~27% of total applied agricultural water in the state, wheres an outright majority thereof goes to orchards and vineyards[0].
Moreover, water is the least mobile aspect of agriculture. Land can be put to different use, products can be shipped, but water is pretty much where it is; moving it ranges from generationally difficult (e.g. CVP, SWP, ...) to physically impractical (e.g. lifting the Colorado to irrigate upstream). Water supply systems are effectively closed and separate. Any analysis of competing uses has to take place within the context of that closed system. The average water intensity of livestock does not matter; only the fraction of that intensity demanded from CA population-rivalrous sources. As it stands that's "some" (and much more from feed _importers_ than is reasonable, as the other comment notes[1]). Converting more central valley to unirrigated rangeland, and topping up nutritional deficits with imported feed would be hugely beneficial for CA water issues, even though it's a 'water intense' product.
[0]: https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-californias-ag... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40915369
Moreover, water is the least mobile aspect of agriculture. Land can be put to different use, products can be shipped, but water is pretty much where it is; moving it ranges from generationally difficult (e.g. CVP, SWP, ...) to physically impractical (e.g. lifting the Colorado to irrigate upstream). Water supply systems are effectively closed and separate. Any analysis of competing uses has to take place within the context of that closed system. The average water intensity of livestock does not matter; only the fraction of that intensity demanded from CA population-rivalrous sources. As it stands that's "some" (and much more from feed _importers_ than is reasonable, as the other comment notes[1]). Converting more central valley to unirrigated rangeland, and topping up nutritional deficits with imported feed would be hugely beneficial for CA water issues, even though it's a 'water intense' product.
[0]: https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-californias-ag... [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40915369
The point is that the feed crops can be grown in areas with abundant water and shipped elsewhere, so cattle don't have to be a significant contributor to local water shortages.
Crops don’t move themselves, they require trucks and ships. Importing 1 plant to feed a human is less water and energy intensive than importing 10 plants to feed a cow to feed a human.
Irrefutably. The problem is people prefer to eat the cow. And while it's nice to imagine a different world, "everyone should just want different things" is not really a valid policy prescription to solve specific land- and water-use questions.
If the price of water was the same for human and agricultural use then the cost of the beef would increase and more people would stop eating it and eat the cheaper plants instead. This would also decrease energy usage helping with climate change.
When we subsidize the price of water for agriculture then people will do wasteful and stupid things to make more money like growing water rich alfalfa and shipping it to China and Japan to feed their livestock.
See the link I posted in the thread.
When we subsidize the price of water for agriculture then people will do wasteful and stupid things to make more money like growing water rich alfalfa and shipping it to China and Japan to feed their livestock.
See the link I posted in the thread.
Yes. "the price of ag water in CA should be higher to discourage uneconomic uses" is a valid policy prescription; its impact on the price of beef, and consumption thereof is less foreseeable.
A) Pointing out a large problem with one field is not me spreading propaganda. As others have mentioned, look at where the alfalfa goes and we're on the same page.
B) I'm totally fine point the finger at the beef and dairy industry, ultimately the entirety of your comment does not change my point. Agriculture uses 80%, focusing on city use is going after a politically convenient solution which will do little to address much of the issue.
B) I'm totally fine point the finger at the beef and dairy industry, ultimately the entirety of your comment does not change my point. Agriculture uses 80%, focusing on city use is going after a politically convenient solution which will do little to address much of the issue.
This is all beside the point though. California isn't choosing between agriculture and livestock (at least in the policies discussed in TFA), they're placing restrictions on residential use.
>This is a coordinated effort by the beef/dairy...
Is that true? I had not heard about this. Are there records of campaign donations or the like? Is this just speculation?
Is that true? I had not heard about this. Are there records of campaign donations or the like? Is this just speculation?
?? Can you link to anywhere where they accept blame for their emissions?
Not accepting blame and colluding with competitors to sew disinformation is a false equivalence.
The material effects are identical. I don't understand why it matters if they collude or not. Maybe we should just fix the law.
Alfalfa is grown for cows. In this case by Saudi-owned companies that ship it to feed cows in Saudi Arabia, in a form on water-laundering.
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In California, domestic water is priced by each hundred cubic feet (HCF). Agricultural water is priced by each acre-foot. Both units sell for about $1. One HCF is about 747 gallons. One acre-foot is more than 325,000 gallons!
Maybe that's what a hundred cubic feet costs to the water company, but at residential retail on my bill it's between $3.50 and $25 per hundred cubic feet, so it's as much as 10,000x as expensive for a residential consumer as an ag one. It's completely beyond the bounds of anything reasonable.
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This is true but also hits the core of the problem: many of those agricultural users have old claims on water which were set in an unusually wet period. The state of California can tell a city to use less more easily than a farmer who has a legal right to use a particular water source.
The core problem is the treatment of water rights as property rights rather than government grants. Which is a relatively new problem, as the management of irrigation was one of the things governments were originally invented for.
Water rights are full of gray area though. Should I have the right to capture and use rain that falls on my land, or does the government own that somehow? If I drill a well on my land, is that my water or the government's? If a river naturally flows through my land, is it my right to use that water or does the government regulate that as well?
The early government projects for irrigation weren't quite the same. Building aqueducts is about moving water to a place that it doesn't naturally exist. Water rights are about saying who can use water that is already there.
The early government projects for irrigation weren't quite the same. Building aqueducts is about moving water to a place that it doesn't naturally exist. Water rights are about saying who can use water that is already there.
Aqueducts are closer to present day than to early governments.
Traditional agricultural societies were dense villages and towns. The entire community typically shared the same water source. In areas that relied on rivers and wells, distributing the water fairly while ensuring community welfare was one of the primary functions of the town/village government.
Modern issues arise from two concepts you mention in your second sentence: "the right" and "my land".
Traditional agricultural societies were dense villages and towns. The entire community typically shared the same water source. In areas that relied on rivers and wells, distributing the water fairly while ensuring community welfare was one of the primary functions of the town/village government.
Modern issues arise from two concepts you mention in your second sentence: "the right" and "my land".
I assumed the parent comment was referring to early water projects as in Roman aqueducts.
The entire US system is based fundamentally on property rights. We absolutely could change that, but today we have property rights. That isn't really modern either, unless you are extending modernity back centuries to include feudal states with lords and kings owning all the land.
Land rights come with very real problems, though I don't see how you get rid of them and still have anything resembling today's governments. If individuals didn't own land today the government would claim ownership over all of it, which they kind of do with property taxes and eminent domain but that's a whole different problem.
The entire US system is based fundamentally on property rights. We absolutely could change that, but today we have property rights. That isn't really modern either, unless you are extending modernity back centuries to include feudal states with lords and kings owning all the land.
Land rights come with very real problems, though I don't see how you get rid of them and still have anything resembling today's governments. If individuals didn't own land today the government would claim ownership over all of it, which they kind of do with property taxes and eminent domain but that's a whole different problem.
Can the cities just buy water rights from farmers? That seems like the obvious solution - so obvious that, if it's not being done, there must be a reason why not. Does anybody know?
Where does the money come from? They can’t easily raise taxes to pay for it, and farmers are going to charge a lot even if they’re willing to sell because paying market rates for water places them at a significant disadvantage compared to other farmers who are not paying market rates. There are a lot of efficiency issues in agriculture – drive through the Central Valley in the summer and see how much runoff there is - but the solutions tend to increase labor costs.
I’ve wondered whether the angle might be some kind of tax: don’t argue with the guy who has a 4 century-old claim, just charge a waste tax on usage over a certain amount per unit of food and apply it state wide so nobody can benefit by holding out.
I’ve wondered whether the angle might be some kind of tax: don’t argue with the guy who has a 4 century-old claim, just charge a waste tax on usage over a certain amount per unit of food and apply it state wide so nobody can benefit by holding out.
If there was actual political will, it would happen. Heck, the government could use Eminent Domain to simply take those water rights from agriculture, and/or pay a token amount for them. It would be a lot more justifiable than many other recent examples of Eminent Domain use.
The money comes from water bills. These bills are extremely high in California for non-ag customers and are more than enough to purchase water rights.
Uhh how about that 15% income tax being used for multi-million-dollar public toilets?
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/04/22/san-fr...
I swear, it better have free Wi-Fi and EMP shielding.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2024/04/22/san-fr...
I swear, it better have free Wi-Fi and EMP shielding.
Do you think that they’re just sitting on a pile of unspent money? If not, it doesn’t matter what the existing tax rate is since we’re talking about new money which has to come from somewhere.
And while $1.7M is indeed silly, it’s a drop in the bucket for something which would cost billions. A custom building plan is much easier to avoid than a tense negotiation with many parties.
And while $1.7M is indeed silly, it’s a drop in the bucket for something which would cost billions. A custom building plan is much easier to avoid than a tense negotiation with many parties.
Non transferable.
Water rights for that farm. Not for a place 250 miles away. We sometimes forget how big California is. It’s not a regular state geographically speaking.
Even if it were legal, how do you move the water 250 miles? Oftentimes uphill?
Water rights for that farm. Not for a place 250 miles away. We sometimes forget how big California is. It’s not a regular state geographically speaking.
Even if it were legal, how do you move the water 250 miles? Oftentimes uphill?
It is legal, for some types of water rights. Not all. And yes, water moves. Downhill. All by itself.
Rights can be transferred to different owners along its path. It doesn't matter if the new owner is upstream or downstream, as long as you are talking about the same source. So while you are correct that a farmer wouldn't sell their rights to someone hundreds of miles away, they absolutely can sell to someone else in the same community.
Rights can be transferred to different owners along its path. It doesn't matter if the new owner is upstream or downstream, as long as you are talking about the same source. So while you are correct that a farmer wouldn't sell their rights to someone hundreds of miles away, they absolutely can sell to someone else in the same community.
I did that when I lived out west. It was Utah, not CA, but I did sell my water rights to the city. There were a few catches to the process: I had to not want the water anymore, and the city had to have the funding available to make the purchase. While simple, those two things can certainly be large blockers to cities buying rights.
If we just had a normally functioning market, this wouldn’t be a problem. There will always be a “shortage” of water in California, because the sunny weather in the valley lets you grow so many profitable, water hungry crops. Picking on one particular crop is just squeezing a water balloon.
The problem is that most water in CA is a property right that’s only partially tradable, so ag water is effectively thousands of times cheaper than city water to the point where it’s mostly not even metered in the valley, but in the city, I’m supposed to worry about using an extra quarter gallon to flush my toilet, or five gallons to do a load of laundry.
The problem is that most water in CA is a property right that’s only partially tradable, so ag water is effectively thousands of times cheaper than city water to the point where it’s mostly not even metered in the valley, but in the city, I’m supposed to worry about using an extra quarter gallon to flush my toilet, or five gallons to do a load of laundry.
That depends if you think flushing toilets and watering their lawns is more important than growing nuts an alfalfa.
I'm sympathetic to your views but neither thing seems great. What about compulsory water tanks for the flushing toilets and lawn mowing?
I'm sympathetic to your views but neither thing seems great. What about compulsory water tanks for the flushing toilets and lawn mowing?
My point is indifferent to how one important is versus the other. It's a pragmatic point; if you're running out of water, focus on changing the 80% and not the 20% long tail. Even if you remove the entirety of the 20% it still won't solve your issue.
Pretty much! I find it ironic that since 1988 California is run by Democrat “liberals” and “progressives” that associate Republicans with some kind of robber baron tycoon-level capitalism and yet it’s all a show:
1) They have the highest rates of gentrification and relative inequality and poverty (among the highest gini index), the help staff commute 2 hours each way because they can’t afford to live in the city
2) Worst homelessness rates in the country, the cities are positively overrun with homelessness and crime. I was in LA recently and it’s the opposite of NYC. In NYC, rich people want to live in Manhattan. In LA, rich people want to live as far from Downtown LA as possible. The buildings are delapidated, almost no new skyscrapers have gone up for decades and the streets honestly remind me of NYC in the 80s. Skid row is just the start. And don’t get me started on San Francisco…
3) I’ve been to Dubai, and other cities, and California is like 40 years behind at this point. Signs are from the 70s. Skyline is stuck in the 80s. Heck even Poland has leapfrogged California with its skyline. There are so many rich people in California, 20% of the US population lives there, and yet they don’t seem to invest in their cities, only their mansions and their galas…
4) There are rich and famous tycoons living in manshions insulated from the rifraff, and unlike NYC there is no hustle and bustle, it is a car culture so you don’t get to mingle with the commoners (eg I ran into Charlie Rose on the street randomly the other week in NYC and now I’m making an app for him).
5) And worst of all… the government itself is captured by special interests to divert water! This is water regulatory capture on the levels of Flynt, Michigan or Honduras water privatization… all for what, pistachios? You can watch this documentary to see the scope of corruption in California.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GE_2cg4jIk
I’m not a Democrat or a Republican, but I am shocked by how the masses allow Democrats for decades to openly do to them the very thing they claim Republicans would do to them if they ever got elected.
Yes, I know there are environmental issues in deserts, the mountains block the clouds and the Colorado river is drying up etc. I know that Vegas and other cities have it worse and are facing “day zero”. But maybe don’t divert the last remaining water to water-intensive agricultural projects there then? Or focus on investing in new water infrastructure?
1) They have the highest rates of gentrification and relative inequality and poverty (among the highest gini index), the help staff commute 2 hours each way because they can’t afford to live in the city
2) Worst homelessness rates in the country, the cities are positively overrun with homelessness and crime. I was in LA recently and it’s the opposite of NYC. In NYC, rich people want to live in Manhattan. In LA, rich people want to live as far from Downtown LA as possible. The buildings are delapidated, almost no new skyscrapers have gone up for decades and the streets honestly remind me of NYC in the 80s. Skid row is just the start. And don’t get me started on San Francisco…
3) I’ve been to Dubai, and other cities, and California is like 40 years behind at this point. Signs are from the 70s. Skyline is stuck in the 80s. Heck even Poland has leapfrogged California with its skyline. There are so many rich people in California, 20% of the US population lives there, and yet they don’t seem to invest in their cities, only their mansions and their galas…
4) There are rich and famous tycoons living in manshions insulated from the rifraff, and unlike NYC there is no hustle and bustle, it is a car culture so you don’t get to mingle with the commoners (eg I ran into Charlie Rose on the street randomly the other week in NYC and now I’m making an app for him).
5) And worst of all… the government itself is captured by special interests to divert water! This is water regulatory capture on the levels of Flynt, Michigan or Honduras water privatization… all for what, pistachios? You can watch this documentary to see the scope of corruption in California.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GE_2cg4jIk
I’m not a Democrat or a Republican, but I am shocked by how the masses allow Democrats for decades to openly do to them the very thing they claim Republicans would do to them if they ever got elected.
Yes, I know there are environmental issues in deserts, the mountains block the clouds and the Colorado river is drying up etc. I know that Vegas and other cities have it worse and are facing “day zero”. But maybe don’t divert the last remaining water to water-intensive agricultural projects there then? Or focus on investing in new water infrastructure?
Same as with plastic pollution it seems.
California’s water problems cannot be solved without abolishing the absurd system of senior and junior water rights, where just because someone nailed a notice on a tree in the 19th Century, they get to take their fill of whatever river before the juniors can take their turn. This creates perverse incentives against water-saving efficiency methods like drip irrigation. Unfortunately, reforming water rights is like the third rail of California politics and no politician wants to endure the decades of lawsuits it would cause.
I feel a bad for CA people, I cannot believe this is happening so soon after all the rain and snow I heard they got over the Winter.
I remember years ago when they suggested 5 minute showers (maybe 15). My manager lived in that area, I lived in a are were water is coming out of our ears 365 days a year, so to speak.
I said to her, "5 mins ? When I hop in the shower in the morning, 30 minutes go by before I even realize I am in the shower".
That is one thing I need, a long hot shower. Living there would mean no one would not want to be near me. My managers would beg me to Work from Home. :)
I remember years ago when they suggested 5 minute showers (maybe 15). My manager lived in that area, I lived in a are were water is coming out of our ears 365 days a year, so to speak.
I said to her, "5 mins ? When I hop in the shower in the morning, 30 minutes go by before I even realize I am in the shower".
That is one thing I need, a long hot shower. Living there would mean no one would not want to be near me. My managers would beg me to Work from Home. :)
Assuming a standard 2.5gpm flow rate, even if water is free, that's a lot of energy use for a hot shower. 2,250 gallons of water per month on daily showers, assuming a 60/40 split for hot/cold means heating 1,350 gallons of water per month for just one person.
That's either expensive, bad for the environment or both, and not something Californias should aspire to do.
That's either expensive, bad for the environment or both, and not something Californias should aspire to do.
California labels itself as the world's 7th or 10th largest economy, I think that if they wanted to, they could have invested in desalination plants across their coast to have all the water they need and more.
My 2c.
My 2c.
This was originally planned in conjunction with the San Onofre nuclear power plant, which gave all of SoCal amazing power and offered the infrastructure for performing desalination in conjunction with ocean water used for cooling parts of the reactor. Sadly, some hippie in Sacramento decided to kill our power plant so now energy prices have soared and we’ve lost the potential for desalinated water in San Diego, Orange and LA counties. My buddy has been working the decommission for a decade now. Given a few beers, the rants are quite illuminating and disappointing
"some hippie in Sacramento"
surely it's more complicated than that?!
surely it's more complicated than that?!
Taking a decision to build a nuclear power plant on a fault line always is.
Better plan would probably be to build a nuclear plant in Arizona and export the power to California. Use some of it for desalination. Then export water to Arizona.
But nowadays calling people hippies or conservitards is what passes for analysis, civic discourse, and problem solving.
Better plan would probably be to build a nuclear plant in Arizona and export the power to California. Use some of it for desalination. Then export water to Arizona.
But nowadays calling people hippies or conservitards is what passes for analysis, civic discourse, and problem solving.
When hyperbolic reactions rule the day, particularly when they are contradictory to one’s stated goals (provide clean, low prices energy and potable water) - dismissive labels are readily handed out. Both sides of the aisle are guilty so these labels go along with the hand waving dismissal of basic common sense & standing local rulings. The analysis, civic discourse and problem solving was performed, but disregarded for performative ideals - that continue to be a direct contradiction to the research & solutions presented. It just sucks. Especially when the state can leverage authority from Sacramento, overruling local resolutions and ordinances that were based on the research, analysis and civic discourse.
Well, Japan has a lot of them that don't have issues. And since California doesn't get tsunamis, it is perfectly fine to build a nuclear power plant on a fault line. Less riskier than Japan.
Turns out it’s actually harder to decommission… :shrug:
I suspect the "hippie" was the governor (Sacramento is the state capital).
yes, I took that for granted -- but my point stands. it takes more than one intransigent politician.
;P
FYI, San Diego has a desalination plant that cost about a billion dollars to build and provides water equivalent to that used by 400,000 homes [1]. The lack of the San Onofre plant doesn't seem to be a limiting factor.
[1] https://www.sdcwa.org/your-water/local-water-supplies/seawat...
[1] https://www.sdcwa.org/your-water/local-water-supplies/seawat...
Do these water restrictions apply to desalination? If not, perhaps they'll encourage more desalination.
Yup! If memory serves, some of the design was borrowed from the San Onofre plans. Certainly only limiting in terms of volume of desalinated water for Orange County. I believe that was the original intent as San Onofre is nicely situated to serve both counties
This works for domestic usage - not agriculture - and might be a good use for the huge amount of excess solar capacity were likely to have soon, but it’s expensive and NIMBYs are not going to want salt and other waste building up in their neighborhoods. It seems inevitable that they’ll have some capacity but I doubt it’ll ever reach the level where conservation measures relative to 20th century usage levels won’t be necessary.
The salt goes back out into the ocean, which is rather large.
Desalination is practical when paired with nuclear power (there is a possibility for even things like directly using the heat from nuclear to desalinate without converting to electricity and then back to heat first). But California seems dead-set on shuttering any nuclear plants and using imported power made with fossil fuels in other states instead.
My in laws have to deal with rolling blackouts during very hot days at dusk. Perhaps after telling town residents not to flush toilets, take showers, or order tap water in restaurants, we can next just say to use no electricity at all. Might as well go back to the Stone Age.
Desalination is practical when paired with nuclear power (there is a possibility for even things like directly using the heat from nuclear to desalinate without converting to electricity and then back to heat first). But California seems dead-set on shuttering any nuclear plants and using imported power made with fossil fuels in other states instead.
My in laws have to deal with rolling blackouts during very hot days at dusk. Perhaps after telling town residents not to flush toilets, take showers, or order tap water in restaurants, we can next just say to use no electricity at all. Might as well go back to the Stone Age.
> The salt goes back out into the ocean, which is rather large.
Yes, but that’s like saying it doesn’t matter if you get shot because the volume of the room is still less than 1ppb lead. You need to plan for how to avoid massive ecological disruption in the local area, which is possible but adds to the expense and gives NIMBYs another opportunity to delay or block things. These are classic economic problems: when something else is subsidized low, it’s hard for a competitor which doesn’t share those benefits to get established even if everyone would be better off in the long-term.
Nuclear is a distraction - you don’t need such expensive power for this, or even the near-free solar California’s renewable focus will produce at many times. Researchers have been developing passive solar systems which use solar power directly and are suitable for deployment in places which don’t have enormous supplies of cheap electricity.
Yes, but that’s like saying it doesn’t matter if you get shot because the volume of the room is still less than 1ppb lead. You need to plan for how to avoid massive ecological disruption in the local area, which is possible but adds to the expense and gives NIMBYs another opportunity to delay or block things. These are classic economic problems: when something else is subsidized low, it’s hard for a competitor which doesn’t share those benefits to get established even if everyone would be better off in the long-term.
Nuclear is a distraction - you don’t need such expensive power for this, or even the near-free solar California’s renewable focus will produce at many times. Researchers have been developing passive solar systems which use solar power directly and are suitable for deployment in places which don’t have enormous supplies of cheap electricity.
It's true that environmental impact matters (although the amount of salt we're talking about is negligible - it's hard to wrap your mind around just how big the ocean is vs. the amount of water being extracted from it). Desalination plants have been run for a long time in Israel and Saudi Arabia.
To give you an idea of the scale involved, one of Israel's large desalination plants produced 332 acre-feet of water per day. The Red Sea is around 1.8 * 10^11 acre feet of water, so assuming the Red Sea never got replenished, that would take... 1.5 million years to empty it out.
The plant is removing about 1,300 tons of salt per day, which may sound like a lot, but consider that the ocean currently has about 5.0 * 10^16 of salt in it, it's not significant, assuming they were discharging the salt to the ocean - which they don't! The output of a desalination plant is more brine produced than freshwater produced, so it's not at a very large concentration and the impact on sea life is minimal.
Nuclear isn't a distraction because nuclear was already installed, was working, and is sustainable. Researchers are working on a lot of things, but research doesn't equal something that can actually meet demand for water today. Desalination works today and people rely on it for water around the globe. This would be a great improvement over trying to empty out Lake Mead and the Colorado.
To give you an idea of the scale involved, one of Israel's large desalination plants produced 332 acre-feet of water per day. The Red Sea is around 1.8 * 10^11 acre feet of water, so assuming the Red Sea never got replenished, that would take... 1.5 million years to empty it out.
The plant is removing about 1,300 tons of salt per day, which may sound like a lot, but consider that the ocean currently has about 5.0 * 10^16 of salt in it, it's not significant, assuming they were discharging the salt to the ocean - which they don't! The output of a desalination plant is more brine produced than freshwater produced, so it's not at a very large concentration and the impact on sea life is minimal.
Nuclear isn't a distraction because nuclear was already installed, was working, and is sustainable. Researchers are working on a lot of things, but research doesn't equal something that can actually meet demand for water today. Desalination works today and people rely on it for water around the globe. This would be a great improvement over trying to empty out Lake Mead and the Colorado.
What makes it expensive if the solar capacity is in excess?
It’s a separate facility which has to be approved, built, and operated beyond the existing water supply infrastructure. It’s not unworkable but you have the problem that everyone’s water bill goes up compared to what they’re paying now, and that leads to political consequences, which is why everyone has kicked it down the proverbial road hoping that it’ll either get cheaper or the supply problems will become bad enough that nobody questions the need.
California cannot even run a balanced budget without adding more megaprojects like large-scale desalination. The only way this would work is if it was private development encouraged by properly pricing water usage in the state (i.e. much higher than it is today).
I'm not opposed to desalinization in some limited areas but it will never be able to supply current agriculture needs. The physics just doesn't work. Most of the state's water goes to farms.
Then the city folk pay for desalinated water and the rest goes to agriculture. The problem is, the country does need the food produced in California.
Most of the problem goes away if you can get market pricing for agricultural usage. That would incentivize not focusing on high-water crops like almonds or alfalfa animal fodder but it’s politically challenging due to all of the conflicting water claims based on supply levels which are not compatible with the current values. You’d need to do something like an eminent domain claim on water rights in some cases going back to the Spanish era, and since it splits almost exactly down party lines you have to plan for extended delays or a SCOTUS decision that they don’t have the power to do so.
Especially the tasty pistachios I buy at the supermarkt here. Which is in Germany...
You're missing the point. Desal can help with municipal water supplies in coastal areas that have no other options. But due to lack of transport that won't free up any useful amount of water for agriculture.
The country doesn't need the huge quantities of alfalfa produced in California. Much of that is exported. We can cut way back. A political solution will have to be found that allows charging farmers market rates for water.
The country doesn't need the huge quantities of alfalfa produced in California. Much of that is exported. We can cut way back. A political solution will have to be found that allows charging farmers market rates for water.
Large scale infrastructure project in California? Come on.
Let’s be fair, they may be able to build a train link between the bustling metropolises of Merced and Bakersfield. Still nothing even planned for Sacramento to the Bay Area.
Bakersfield has a population of 410k. That is the same size as Minneapolis and larger than Cleveland, Tampa Bay, New Orleans, Orlando, and Cincinnati.
Why don’t we move the water from where it is to where it’s needed? If we can build a transcontinental highway system for cars and freight and oil pipelines we can obviously handle plain old water just fine. We don’t think big enough anymore and it’s crippling us.
We can.
We don’t because who wants to pay for that? A long time ago you were talking about the Greatest Generation. OK. Fine. I can see them agreeing to pay for big projects. Generations nowadays though? Yeah, not so much.
I suppose at a state level California has the money and could pay for canals to California. But why wouldn’t they put it into desalination plants instead if it really came to that? And suppose California just uses their bottomless checkbook to desalinate or move water. What about all the other states out west? Who will pay for water to Arizona for instance?
This is another one that is a hard problem.
We don’t because who wants to pay for that? A long time ago you were talking about the Greatest Generation. OK. Fine. I can see them agreeing to pay for big projects. Generations nowadays though? Yeah, not so much.
I suppose at a state level California has the money and could pay for canals to California. But why wouldn’t they put it into desalination plants instead if it really came to that? And suppose California just uses their bottomless checkbook to desalinate or move water. What about all the other states out west? Who will pay for water to Arizona for instance?
This is another one that is a hard problem.
Pipelines require maintenance, they leak all the time. Removing water from somewhere has its own local impact, how do you avoid a game of whack-a-mole where moving massive amounts of water disrupts both populations as ecosystems from where the water has been removed?
If it was a trivial solution it'd have already been done, it's always good to start with the principle "smarter people have thought about this" to try to understand a problem than thinking it's a trivial issue to be solved and no one else is as smart as you are.
If it was a trivial solution it'd have already been done, it's always good to start with the principle "smarter people have thought about this" to try to understand a problem than thinking it's a trivial issue to be solved and no one else is as smart as you are.
> If it was a trivial solution it'd have already been done
I mean, the Romans did it, and it was a huge infrastructure project for a government unusually good at them. It’s fair to ask if the particular government in question just can’t do things on that scale.
I mean, the Romans did it, and it was a huge infrastructure project for a government unusually good at them. It’s fair to ask if the particular government in question just can’t do things on that scale.
The world is orders of magnitude more complex than when the Roman Empire was around. They didn't have to care about environmental destruction with their projects to the level we need to care, even at its peak the whole Roman Empire population spanning a few continents (Europe, Africa, and Asia) wasn't much more than population of just California.
Yeah, the Romans did it, we don't live in Roman Empire times though.
Yeah, the Romans did it, we don't live in Roman Empire times though.
If the water is uphill of where it's needed? Sure, and we've already done that. If the water is net uphill of where it's needed? Maybe, but requires enormous energy inputs, and infra to recapture on the downhill side, and has corresponding energy losses. If the water is net downhill of where it's needed? We almost certainly cannot, not without or building massive (hopefully nuclear/solar) energy infra.
Moving water is far, far more difficult than any other type of infrastructure we build.
Moving water is far, far more difficult than any other type of infrastructure we build.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_water_wars
They already do this.
The Owens Valley was turned into a desert to divert water to LA. There are aqueducts moving water from the Colorado River to LA and Phoenix which are both hundreds of miles away from the river.
The 1974 film Chinatown was a fictionalized version of these events.
They already do this.
The Owens Valley was turned into a desert to divert water to LA. There are aqueducts moving water from the Colorado River to LA and Phoenix which are both hundreds of miles away from the river.
The 1974 film Chinatown was a fictionalized version of these events.
How sustainable can that be? desalination is probably the best choice since you wont fuck up other ecosystems by removing water from them.
You still have the potential to fuck up marine and littoral ecosystems if you're discharging concentrated brine back into the ocean willy-nilly, though.
My (admittedly very limited) understanding is that we can extract fairly valuable lithium from seawater. Wouldn't it be at least somewhat useful, rather than discharging the brine back into the ocean, to keep it in evaporation pools where we can then collect the lithium?
Barring that, surely there are other ways we can handle the brine than just discharging it right back to the ocean, even if they make the desalination process somewhat more costly. Ultimately, water is infinitely more valuable than money.
Barring that, surely there are other ways we can handle the brine than just discharging it right back to the ocean, even if they make the desalination process somewhat more costly. Ultimately, water is infinitely more valuable than money.
Why is this downvoted, is this not possible?
We built the highway system for national defense, there is no issue with thinking big when it comes to the military.
Why don't we encourage people to move to where the water already is? There is plenty of room for people in Great Lakes/Rust Belt cities of Detroit, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Buffalo, Toledo, Erie, Gary, etc.
Why don't we encourage people to move to where the water already is? There is plenty of room for people in Great Lakes/Rust Belt cities of Detroit, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Buffalo, Toledo, Erie, Gary, etc.
I don't live in CA or any of the places you listed.
People move to where good jobs are and I never think of the places you listed for good jobs.
Retired people generally want to live where the temperatures are warmer and don't have to deal with tons of snow.
People move to where good jobs are and I never think of the places you listed for good jobs.
Retired people generally want to live where the temperatures are warmer and don't have to deal with tons of snow.
What percentage of the workforce will work remotely by the time this pipeline is completed?
Sure, people want to live where the temperature is warm all year, unfortunately those places don't have water. Water sits at the base of Maslow's Hierarchy. Winter is also moderating pretty quickly in the Midwest, barely any snow last winter.
Sure, people want to live where the temperature is warm all year, unfortunately those places don't have water. Water sits at the base of Maslow's Hierarchy. Winter is also moderating pretty quickly in the Midwest, barely any snow last winter.
I'm sure this isn't the intention of their regulation, but water rationing is a great way to encourage people to move to where the water already is.
[0]: https://water.ca.gov/Programs/Water-Use-And-Efficiency/Agric...