Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent(tradearabia.com)
tradearabia.com
Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent
https://www.tradearabia.com/news/REAL_423987.html
93 comments
Dubai has far looser work visa and banking laws. And low taxation. Infrastructure may not be as cheap but it is accessible.
If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might be a lot more approachable from both company owner and employee perspective.
If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might be a lot more approachable from both company owner and employee perspective.
>If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might be a lot more approachable from both company owner and employee perspective.
Sure, but if we are talking about a place to move to and live the US is definitely my preferred choice.
Sure, but if we are talking about a place to move to and live the US is definitely my preferred choice.
Let’s be real though: the US may -very- quickly move in the bad direction, rights-wise, come November. The SCOTUS has also demonstrated its willingness to overturn decades of precedent as soon as they sufficiently tilted that way ideologically. I don’t know if you can strongly count on the US remaining a safe home base when it comes to rights for gay people, minorities, and women, at least in the medium term. I’d use caution.
This comment is pretty obviously spreading “fear, uncertainty, and doubt.”
Makes perfect sense. It's a different target. In terms of being able to start a business up and bring people in from about anywhere, get them working and some semi-modern infrastructure with not a ton of regulatory and immigration hassle though I struggle to think of an easier place to do it.
There are definitely a fair number of EU citizens exploiting this and UAE tax residency.
There are definitely a fair number of EU citizens exploiting this and UAE tax residency.
Where in the USA?
There's California and NYC. The rest is either economically depressed or a poor cultural fit. Sure, theres a few pockets of exceptions too, Pacific NW, Arizona, Colorado etc.
There's California and NYC. The rest is either economically depressed or a poor cultural fit. Sure, theres a few pockets of exceptions too, Pacific NW, Arizona, Colorado etc.
So the entire West Coast, south west, and north east? The most desirable and populated areas where the majority of the population live?
Bluntly put, but I'm curious other business-friendly areas there are in & around Europe.
A lot of people can’t move to the US. Plenty of my friends were moved to Canada after they couldn’t get H1B renewals and now even non-India/China waitlists for green card applications are so long that you can’t just switch from a student visa to an application for permanent residence like you used to.
As a gay dev I would never move to somewhere like Dubai. Fuck that.
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You're right. Why move to a country that thinks you're an abomination? Even though I'm sure you're pretty much immune to persecution as a high-skill expat, even having to hide who you really are too keep the peace just isn't worth it.
I'm not really gay but hetflex/polyamorous and a bit queer and I would not be comfortable being myself there either. Even in the bad areas in Holland I get slurs thrown at me.
I'm not really gay but hetflex/polyamorous and a bit queer and I would not be comfortable being myself there either. Even in the bad areas in Holland I get slurs thrown at me.
I thought this idea was folks moved to saudi arabia, lived apart from the general population, and left later with basically all their salaries banked.
Of course that's the life plan for most folks who move for work.
Of course that's the life plan for most folks who move for work.
> Why would you move to Saudi Arabia if you can move to the US?
Maybe some of those Europeans are from Russia or Belarus, and are not welcomed in the US.
Maybe some of those Europeans are from Russia or Belarus, and are not welcomed in the US.
Or just because getting visa to US is kafquese style difficult.
Tax free income. Live there for 7 years. Retire.
When you bring that tax free income home it's no longer tax free of course...
As I understand it, it's mainly US citizens who are subject to citizenship rather than residence based taxation.
So I think you can take money earned while living overseas back to most European countries without paying additional income tax.
So I think you can take money earned while living overseas back to most European countries without paying additional income tax.
I would not pick the US either. High crime, high healthcare cost, low social security. People carrying guns everywhere. No way. Of course I know there are huge regional differences but I don't know of any city (it would have to be a city for me) that I'd be comfortable with.
In fact I've declined to visit even when I've had the opportunity to do a business trip though there wasn't much pressure on it. I could just go or leave it, no strings attached and I was happy to leave it. I'm very socialist, atheist and progressive, it just isn't my kinda place.
In fact I often get recruiters pushing me relocation offers though I clearly state in my profile that I only want to work in my city or 100% remote. Even if it's an amazing career opportunity I don't care. I get one a week or so that still tries, comes with working in AI for a major enterprise I guess. They're all scrambling for people now.
I wouldn't want to be in that kind of role anyway where the goal is to "Do something with AI QUICK that makes investors happy, we don't care what it is!!!". I don't play that game.
In fact I've declined to visit even when I've had the opportunity to do a business trip though there wasn't much pressure on it. I could just go or leave it, no strings attached and I was happy to leave it. I'm very socialist, atheist and progressive, it just isn't my kinda place.
In fact I often get recruiters pushing me relocation offers though I clearly state in my profile that I only want to work in my city or 100% remote. Even if it's an amazing career opportunity I don't care. I get one a week or so that still tries, comes with working in AI for a major enterprise I guess. They're all scrambling for people now.
I wouldn't want to be in that kind of role anyway where the goal is to "Do something with AI QUICK that makes investors happy, we don't care what it is!!!". I don't play that game.
The underlying thesis of the article is that high salaries in the Gulf will outweigh the downsides of working in low-rule-of-law authoritarian states with onerously rigid managerial and social structures, which ... might work out for some folks, but if you haven't worked with Gulf-domiciled companies before I wouldn't recommend signing a long-term contract before testing out those waters.
> might work out for some folks
If by folks, you mean straight men... because I sure as hell wouldn't consider moving if I was gay or a woman. Just this week Ireland had to pressure UAE to return an Irish woman who authorities imprisoned for "attempting suicide" after she was injured because of domestic violence.
https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/07/10/dubai-drops-at...
If by folks, you mean straight men... because I sure as hell wouldn't consider moving if I was gay or a woman. Just this week Ireland had to pressure UAE to return an Irish woman who authorities imprisoned for "attempting suicide" after she was injured because of domestic violence.
https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/07/10/dubai-drops-at...
Tech is mostly made from men and you don't need to share your sexual preference with anyone, so I don't really see a problem. Make some money and get back.
> If by folks, you mean straight men
Straight men account for a large portion of workforce. So might not be a bad strategy for UAE / SA to lure those.
Straight men account for a large portion of workforce. So might not be a bad strategy for UAE / SA to lure those.
if by straight men you mean the vast majority of the tech / finance workforce ???
I was under the impression that for ordinary commercial stuff that won’t touch politics that Dubai at least was pretty tame? Or at least fairly low on the corruption index.
Depends on your circumstances.
My cousin worked there quite a while back so things may have moved on but 2 experiences he told me where reasons I wouldn't ever work there.
1. His wife was involved in an accident with an immigrant worker. She was fine, they weren't. She tried to insist on the Dubai police calling an ambulance. They flatly refused as they didn't value the immigrant workers life and threatened her with arrest and jail if she didn't leave immediately, on the basis if she hadn't been in the country the accident wouldn't have happened.
2. They and their other friends had pacts that if either couple both died they would immediately take their children out of the country, as otherwise they became wards of the state, which is almost impossible to reverse.
Corruption is rife too but the cultural differences and consequences are if anything more significant.
My cousin worked there quite a while back so things may have moved on but 2 experiences he told me where reasons I wouldn't ever work there.
1. His wife was involved in an accident with an immigrant worker. She was fine, they weren't. She tried to insist on the Dubai police calling an ambulance. They flatly refused as they didn't value the immigrant workers life and threatened her with arrest and jail if she didn't leave immediately, on the basis if she hadn't been in the country the accident wouldn't have happened.
2. They and their other friends had pacts that if either couple both died they would immediately take their children out of the country, as otherwise they became wards of the state, which is almost impossible to reverse.
Corruption is rife too but the cultural differences and consequences are if anything more significant.
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For most expats Dubai is fine as long as you understand exactly where the lines are drawn and are willing to live within them (it's orders of magnitude more relaxed than KSA; far more restrictive than, say, Singapore; and a world away from Europe), but even then you can find yourself in trouble; doing business with powerful political clans -- and it's hard to avoid doing that at a certain level -- is a fraught scenario. I had one friend whose company went into bankruptcy because of two clients (a senior UAE shaykh and an Indian billionaire) who refused to pay tens of millions in outstanding uncontested invoices.
About that same time another UAE (Nahyan) shaykh demonstrated his displeasure to a business partner by having him driven into the desert, buried up to the neck, and (nonfatally) run over with a Range Rover while being videotaped. When that business partner (an American) attempted to press charges, the Shaykh was acquitted and the businessman convicted in absentia for blackmail.
I've had more issues and fewer legal recourses with Gulf clients and partners than anywhere else in the world (including the Bilad al-Sham/Levantine region of the Mideast), while doing less work with them than almost anywhere else, so I'll admit to being biased, but it really is a region where the rule of law is, depending on the context, highly personalized or outsourced to religious authorities, and presented without any of the procedural due processes you're used to.
About that same time another UAE (Nahyan) shaykh demonstrated his displeasure to a business partner by having him driven into the desert, buried up to the neck, and (nonfatally) run over with a Range Rover while being videotaped. When that business partner (an American) attempted to press charges, the Shaykh was acquitted and the businessman convicted in absentia for blackmail.
I've had more issues and fewer legal recourses with Gulf clients and partners than anywhere else in the world (including the Bilad al-Sham/Levantine region of the Mideast), while doing less work with them than almost anywhere else, so I'll admit to being biased, but it really is a region where the rule of law is, depending on the context, highly personalized or outsourced to religious authorities, and presented without any of the procedural due processes you're used to.
That's the double edge sword of such a relaxed visa regime. Such open borders work well when either you have a classical liberal free market* with little social services (1800s America) or leaders who rule with an iron fist that can kick out undesirables the moment theyre inconvenient(Dubai).
Thus Singapore, Dubai, 1900s Hong Kong, 1800s America are some of the most famous examples. Free market with no social services doesn't really exist much anymore so most the remaining examples of open borders are something approximating dictatorship, except maybe Argentina(in practice they have almost no enforcement of immigration).
*In theory
Thus Singapore, Dubai, 1900s Hong Kong, 1800s America are some of the most famous examples. Free market with no social services doesn't really exist much anymore so most the remaining examples of open borders are something approximating dictatorship, except maybe Argentina(in practice they have almost no enforcement of immigration).
*In theory
Yes. I was stationed there for work for 2 years by my employer, overall a good experience. Before going my overall view of Dubai was pretty negative, now I would say it’s slightly positive.
They are essentially on the right trajectory.
They are essentially on the right trajectory.
Question for European workers: Do you feel that social services help close some of that gap in pay? Raising a kid in the USA has become massively expensive. Health care costs, education costs, child care costs means parents can easily spent 50-100k a year on children alone. My partner wants to move to the Netherlands, but it would mean a massive pay cut for me long term. Their argument is that children will be cheaper, but I’m dubious on if the offset will be enough.
If you want more than 2 kids it’s rarely feasible in USA, but not an issue for Europe.
No kids, USA hands down.
One kid, comparable.
Two kids, Europe looks better but USA is still possible.
Three kids, you need free childcare somewhere to make it work.
Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses, so at highest tax bracket you need to make almost double that to pay for childcare.
Finally, work culture in Europe is way more relaxed and stable, so you won’t have to worry about missing out on your children’s lives because of work.
No kids, USA hands down.
One kid, comparable.
Two kids, Europe looks better but USA is still possible.
Three kids, you need free childcare somewhere to make it work.
Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses, so at highest tax bracket you need to make almost double that to pay for childcare.
Finally, work culture in Europe is way more relaxed and stable, so you won’t have to worry about missing out on your children’s lives because of work.
My personal experience - most of the USA (generally suburbs) is very cheap to have multiple kids. Houses are bigger. Cars are bigger. Schools are free. Food and clothes are cheap. Plenty of parks, libraries and sports facilities nearby.
As a parent in the US, I find these stereotypes kind of hilarious.
I have many European friends here who say they won't go back to Europe (Germany, England, Belgium) because of the costs of owning a house and having a family.
Software Engineer salaries range from middle to upper class in US terms. While it's not necessarily easy to have kids in the low end of the range, I'd say it's not too hard either and I know many people who do it (even in California).
But hey, for those who think and keep repeating in public that the US is a crime-ridden wasteland where you have no healthcare, no work life-balance and can't have kids: just don't come here and the problem is solved. Interestingly, TFA is exactly about the European exodus... to Arab countries, of all places.
I have many European friends here who say they won't go back to Europe (Germany, England, Belgium) because of the costs of owning a house and having a family.
Software Engineer salaries range from middle to upper class in US terms. While it's not necessarily easy to have kids in the low end of the range, I'd say it's not too hard either and I know many people who do it (even in California).
But hey, for those who think and keep repeating in public that the US is a crime-ridden wasteland where you have no healthcare, no work life-balance and can't have kids: just don't come here and the problem is solved. Interestingly, TFA is exactly about the European exodus... to Arab countries, of all places.
May I ask what you're basing this on? Obviously cost of living in the US varies a lot per region.
OP says it’s the regions where child care costs 50 to 100k, so I am basing it on that.
I used to pay around ~2500 a month for 2 kids in the greater DC Area (richest counties in the US).
I'm sure that number has gone up over the last few years but I absolutely do not believe anyone is paying 100k for child care. Like maybe, maybe the highest-end of high end daycares around SF, NYC, DC, etc. would be clocking at at 60k, and for multiple kids.
I'm sure that number has gone up over the last few years but I absolutely do not believe anyone is paying 100k for child care. Like maybe, maybe the highest-end of high end daycares around SF, NYC, DC, etc. would be clocking at at 60k, and for multiple kids.
I can imagine 4k a month for daycare, plus 2k for part time nanny (kids get sick!), 1k for extra bedroom, 1k for other expenses like food, clothing, bigger car.
That is 96k a year.
That is 96k a year.
As someone who has paid for childcare for 12 years in the US and never got anywhere close to half of the lower end of that amount I would be very curious about which regions they are referring to. Maybe they are referring to 5+ young kids?
Home is somewhere to get childcare.
Yet the US has higher birth rates
> If you want more than 2 kids it’s rarely feasible in USA
What? Anyone can do so if they wanted. There are plenty of people with 3+ kids in america.
> but not an issue for Europe.
And yet much of europe has a lower fertility rate.
> Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses
What are you spending 50 to 100k on?
What? Anyone can do so if they wanted. There are plenty of people with 3+ kids in america.
> but not an issue for Europe.
And yet much of europe has a lower fertility rate.
> Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses
What are you spending 50 to 100k on?
Anyone can do it. I am saying it is better in Europe to do it than in high cost of living areas of USA.
OP says 50 to 100k, so probably they live in high cost of living area.
OP says 50 to 100k, so probably they live in high cost of living area.
I have a very unique experience. Without diving into details, French health care system welcomed and supported and provided very long, sophisticated and expensive care. I really mean a lot. All for unremarkable insurance (mutuelle) 100€ per month.
Mandatory social insurance, basically my taxes, paid for bulk of it.
High level of professionalism, high standard of care, very little red tape and no unreasonable waiting.
Out of pocket it is usually close to zero.
Mandatory social insurance, basically my taxes, paid for bulk of it.
High level of professionalism, high standard of care, very little red tape and no unreasonable waiting.
Out of pocket it is usually close to zero.
For an European, it's really hard to compare the value of social services, especially healthcare. The US healthcare costs seem to be highly variable depending on person/provider/medical history, and the whole pricing model is incomprehensible. Even if I could get a real quote, I still couldn't know what quality of care I'm actually going to get. Over here we keep hearing horror stories like "I stubbed my toe, and the invoice for Tylenol has bankrupted my family", and it's hard to know what's the real likelihood of such problems. It's hard to put monetary value of having a peace of mind that I can call an ambulance any time anywhere, and I won't be fighting any stupid invoices. I never have to worry about some "out of network doctor", because there is no such thing.
There are other things that are hard to judge. I have guaranteed paid holidays and sick days. People serving me in restaurants have a living(ish) wage without tips, and also have guaranteed sick days (it's absolutely disgusting to think people could be coming sick to work, especially in the food industry!). There are higher food standards, and there aren't subsidized processed corn derivatives added to everything. I have plenty of consumer protections (over here saying "I know my EU rights" in the Apple Store magically gets you an extra year of warranty).
I can live in many cities that have competent public transport, and basic shops and amenities within walking or biking distance, with roads prioritizing pedestrian safety. I could earn more and buy a luxury car, but I can already take a train, and read or have a nap while it's "fully self-driving" to the destination, bypassing traffic.
There are other things that are hard to judge. I have guaranteed paid holidays and sick days. People serving me in restaurants have a living(ish) wage without tips, and also have guaranteed sick days (it's absolutely disgusting to think people could be coming sick to work, especially in the food industry!). There are higher food standards, and there aren't subsidized processed corn derivatives added to everything. I have plenty of consumer protections (over here saying "I know my EU rights" in the Apple Store magically gets you an extra year of warranty).
I can live in many cities that have competent public transport, and basic shops and amenities within walking or biking distance, with roads prioritizing pedestrian safety. I could earn more and buy a luxury car, but I can already take a train, and read or have a nap while it's "fully self-driving" to the destination, bypassing traffic.
I agree that salary is not necessarily the highest in the EU. When looking at job offerings outside my current job, it sometimes feels like I would actually get less salary than I currently do.
However, my current job has almost no chance of promotion. In addition, no permanent contract which will force me to switch jobs in a couple of years as they cannot provide fixed-term contracts due to law anymore.
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Exodus to where? U.S. isn't hiring, and even when they are you're living in broken cities in one of the most corrupt capital markets in the world. Whatever job you get a visa for is indentured servitude.
The vast majority of people are not going to uproot, because living in a sane country with sustainable long term employment more than pays for itself.
The vast majority of people are not going to uproot, because living in a sane country with sustainable long term employment more than pays for itself.
Only a few US cities, and that too a few bad areas, are broken. Most Americans live in suburbs which are doing fine.
What’s broken about the cities in the US exactly? I also don’t generally hear the US referred to as corrupt.
Not everything makes the news. Could be small town "politics", sheriff or judge elections, police unilaterally deciding not to enforce laws, etc. Maybe you also count healthcare racket as corruption.
Pretty much. Salaries across Europe are extremely low compared to similar roles at a similar caliber abroad.
Hard to disagree, but have you seen abroad? Seems like outside Europe you're at a constant one health crisis away from homelessness. Is that even an exaggeration at this point?
https://i.redd.it/e2u2h3la7e1b1.jpg
https://i.redd.it/e2u2h3la7e1b1.jpg
Frankly speaking, European healthcare does not seem that attractive to me versus decent to good employer backed American insurance. I’d rather have a (often significantly) bigger US salary.
If there is a healthcare system that I’m envious of, it’s those of some East Asian countries.
I know of some Asian-Americans in the US that do medical tourism to Asia despite having company insurance. Ends up being not only less expensive, but more importantly - also massively faster and more efficient to get treatment.
Heck, I don’t know many, but I know there are Asian-Europeans that make the same trip too.
If there is a healthcare system that I’m envious of, it’s those of some East Asian countries.
I know of some Asian-Americans in the US that do medical tourism to Asia despite having company insurance. Ends up being not only less expensive, but more importantly - also massively faster and more efficient to get treatment.
Heck, I don’t know many, but I know there are Asian-Europeans that make the same trip too.
Aside from the usury of US healthcare, even with insurance from your employer, dealing with the healthcare in Canada is a dream to the US. You might have to wait to see a doctor (most people probably still have to wait in the US if you're lucky enough to get treatment), but there's essentially no fight with layers and layers of occult insurance for anything you get a referral from a doctor for. No surprise or hidden 'networks' to speak of. I think that people who are fine with US healthcare don't really realize how incredibly inefficient and harmful it is to be so uncertain about whether or not insurance will cover your treatment.
Then why are there stories of Canadians crossing the border to seek care in the US?
I work with some Canadians in Toronto. They’re always complaining how terribly slow and inefficient their healthcare system is.
I am by no means defending the US healthcare system as good. It’s not - it’s terrible.
I just wish that those here that want to see it improved/reformed would look across the Pacific, not the Atlantic (or the northern border) for what a truly good healthcare system looks like.
I work with some Canadians in Toronto. They’re always complaining how terribly slow and inefficient their healthcare system is.
I am by no means defending the US healthcare system as good. It’s not - it’s terrible.
I just wish that those here that want to see it improved/reformed would look across the Pacific, not the Atlantic (or the northern border) for what a truly good healthcare system looks like.
> Then why are there stories of Canadians crossing the border to seek care in the US?
Because they got the scrap to pay for it and they can't quite get what they're looking for in Canada. There are private clinics here, too, where you can pay out-of-pocket or maybe with private insurance for treatment where you haven't gotten a referral from your family doctor (PCP), but if you're looking for something specific and fast, you're in basically the same boat as any American.
For example, my wife got a referral from our family doctor to what would basically be some local ENT for surgery on something that wasn't at all life-threatening but still needed to be dealt with. I'm pretty sure people from all over Canada come to see him and he's internationally-renowned, which I've gathered from him being out of the office for a few weeks to work out in Saudi Arabia and the UAE. He's got all these plaques on his wall for teaching at the university here here and in Saudi Arabia and such. I'm sure he is the cream-of-the-crop given that he's going to the other side of the world to do his thing. He just happened to be the guy that she got to see with just regular provincial health insurance. Also a totally lovely dude.
Compare this, too, to the the whole debacle about Americans having to buy Canadian insulin ...
> I work with some Canadians in Toronto. They’re always complaining how terribly slow and inefficient their healthcare system is.
Well, it is slow and inefficient compared to most things when people expect to get everything on-demand, and it is probably worth complaining about. I'm pretty sure it's mainly because there's a doctor shortage crisis here and there's a lot of factors that go into why that's the case. But having grown up in the states where my family had very little money and I didn't go to the doctor at all for probably 10 years, I'm very glad to be here and get to go to the doctor at all.
> I am by no means defending the US healthcare system as good. It’s not - it’s terrible.
No worries--just saying that it can be hard to weigh salary vs. amenities (or necessities?!) and especially that things can be better than they are in the US :)
> I just wish that those here that want to see it improved/reformed would look across the Pacific, not the Atlantic (or the northern border) for what a truly good healthcare system looks like.
For sure. Now I'm curious about how it works and if there are any issues in funding or doctor supply like there are uh ... everywher eelse
Because they got the scrap to pay for it and they can't quite get what they're looking for in Canada. There are private clinics here, too, where you can pay out-of-pocket or maybe with private insurance for treatment where you haven't gotten a referral from your family doctor (PCP), but if you're looking for something specific and fast, you're in basically the same boat as any American.
For example, my wife got a referral from our family doctor to what would basically be some local ENT for surgery on something that wasn't at all life-threatening but still needed to be dealt with. I'm pretty sure people from all over Canada come to see him and he's internationally-renowned, which I've gathered from him being out of the office for a few weeks to work out in Saudi Arabia and the UAE. He's got all these plaques on his wall for teaching at the university here here and in Saudi Arabia and such. I'm sure he is the cream-of-the-crop given that he's going to the other side of the world to do his thing. He just happened to be the guy that she got to see with just regular provincial health insurance. Also a totally lovely dude.
Compare this, too, to the the whole debacle about Americans having to buy Canadian insulin ...
> I work with some Canadians in Toronto. They’re always complaining how terribly slow and inefficient their healthcare system is.
Well, it is slow and inefficient compared to most things when people expect to get everything on-demand, and it is probably worth complaining about. I'm pretty sure it's mainly because there's a doctor shortage crisis here and there's a lot of factors that go into why that's the case. But having grown up in the states where my family had very little money and I didn't go to the doctor at all for probably 10 years, I'm very glad to be here and get to go to the doctor at all.
> I am by no means defending the US healthcare system as good. It’s not - it’s terrible.
No worries--just saying that it can be hard to weigh salary vs. amenities (or necessities?!) and especially that things can be better than they are in the US :)
> I just wish that those here that want to see it improved/reformed would look across the Pacific, not the Atlantic (or the northern border) for what a truly good healthcare system looks like.
For sure. Now I'm curious about how it works and if there are any issues in funding or doctor supply like there are uh ... everywher eelse
"most people probably still have to wait in the US if you're lucky enough to get treatment"
This is really not the case. Over 92% of Americans have health coverage. I can also see practically any specialist next week....
> Over 92% of Americans have health coverage.
How many choose to use it, though, and specifically, how many are afraid to use it because of cost? I'd count "waiting for an appointment/life to line up to see someone 'in network'" that as "lucky enough to get treatment"
> I can also see practically any specialist next week....
It can be similarly the case in Canada if you pay out-of-pocket or with private insurance or travel, and people do the same in the US too.
How many choose to use it, though, and specifically, how many are afraid to use it because of cost? I'd count "waiting for an appointment/life to line up to see someone 'in network'" that as "lucky enough to get treatment"
> I can also see practically any specialist next week....
It can be similarly the case in Canada if you pay out-of-pocket or with private insurance or travel, and people do the same in the US too.
Is there a way to find out which CGRP medications for migraines are covered by which provincial health plans? Seems like a few of them are available if you have private insurance. Or if you could pay the fairly steep costs out of pocket.
Each province maintains a master list of approved medications (and for some conditional approvement requirements), which is freely accessible.
I think you are completely delusional about the US. They have healthcare as well, you know, they just pay it from their paycheck and it isn't deducted from their salary.
>homelessness
In Germany the state guarantees you housing. Yet it has a far bigger homelessness problem than the US.
>homelessness
In Germany the state guarantees you housing. Yet it has a far bigger homelessness problem than the US.
> In Germany the state guarantees you housing. Yet it has a far bigger homelessness problem than the US.
Citation needed.
Citation needed.
Per capita, Germany has about 60% (31.4/10K vs 19.5/10K) higher homeless rate. I was surprised myself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_ho...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_ho...
The Germans are really really good at documenting things. In the US documenting things stuff is often in the hands of people who look good if the numbers are low so... Also, nobody there cares about the homeless. In Germany they all still have social security so they need to be registered.
>The Germans are really really good at documenting things.
Citation needed.
Citation needed.
How much of the 60% difference do you think that accounts for?
> They have healthcare as well, you know, they just pay it from their paycheck and it isn't deducted from their salary.
This usually cancels out the lower tax rates, and it has some key drawbacks: if anything interferes with your ability to stay employed, you lose coverage completely and have to hope that you’ll eventually qualify for public assistance, which can take quite a long time and will likely force you to find new providers, potentially with substantial travel requirements. The costs are 2-3 times higher, too, and medical expenses are a leading cause of bankruptcy.
This usually cancels out the lower tax rates, and it has some key drawbacks: if anything interferes with your ability to stay employed, you lose coverage completely and have to hope that you’ll eventually qualify for public assistance, which can take quite a long time and will likely force you to find new providers, potentially with substantial travel requirements. The costs are 2-3 times higher, too, and medical expenses are a leading cause of bankruptcy.
>This usually cancels out the lower tax rates
Directly contradicts "The costs are 2-3 times higher". Especially not since a software dev makes significantly more money.
Directly contradicts "The costs are 2-3 times higher". Especially not since a software dev makes significantly more money.
No. These aren’t measuring the same thing: the higher costs in the United States means that you cannot buy private plans which are as efficient as the national plans because you are also paying for the overhead of various providers and middlemen which only exist in one of these models, and you have limited ability to negotiate better prices or even visibility.
Software developers make somewhat more money but not enough so for this not to be a concern. If you’re getting hundreds of thousands of dollars more, of course, it’s a net win but if you’re not seeing such a stark difference it’s more debatable. If you’re not at the higher FAANG-tier level, costs for things like health and child care can close the gap considerably, especially if you or your family have less than perfect health and so the US option involves an unpaid second job haggling with insurance companies about coverage.
Software developers make somewhat more money but not enough so for this not to be a concern. If you’re getting hundreds of thousands of dollars more, of course, it’s a net win but if you’re not seeing such a stark difference it’s more debatable. If you’re not at the higher FAANG-tier level, costs for things like health and child care can close the gap considerably, especially if you or your family have less than perfect health and so the US option involves an unpaid second job haggling with insurance companies about coverage.
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The number one thing about the US is the sheer hope and belief in the future. Europe, maybe apart from France, surprisingly, is depressing and nobody thinks the future is bright.
I’ve been in the US for decades. My hope for the future of the country has faded to almost nothing in recent years.
I remember that vibe before 911, I remember every year there was a notable invention/increment in technology, and about after the 2008 housing crises, the vibe ended or was noticeably being phased out, now every year google/smartphones/gaming/climate/cost of living/politics gets worse (dark patterns, SEO spam, DLCs microtransactions, etc.).
Most people in the US who aren't old enough to own a home have watched home ownership evaporate away from them as costs skyrocket and rent-seeking corporations snipe all affordable stock with can only offers.
The US is a depressing place that kind of sucks if you're not coming here for a high-end tech job or as a rich celebrity.
Most people in the US who aren't old enough to own a home have watched home ownership evaporate away from them as costs skyrocket and rent-seeking corporations snipe all affordable stock with can only offers.
The US is a depressing place that kind of sucks if you're not coming here for a high-end tech job or as a rich celebrity.
Maybe so. But then you see the sheer hopelessness in countries like the UK, Canada and Australia and you realize the US is still where things can happen.
I think the future is pretty bright here in Spain. More importantly, I think things are really fine as they are. We just have to keep the climate deteriorating in check because being in a hot country we're really starting to feel that here.
But overall yeah things are fine. Not seeing great pies in the sky for our future but no big sinkholes either.
But overall yeah things are fine. Not seeing great pies in the sky for our future but no big sinkholes either.
Are you sure it's not because of Spain qualifying for the final? /jk
I don't think so. I live in a low-wage country in Europe (Spain) and I moved here because quality of life is so much better. Holland is overcrowded, overregulated, people are very materialistic and don't enjoy life as much. And on top of it they now have an extreme-right government I want nothing to do with.
Here in Spain healthcare is still worry-free and included in my taxes. People live life at a slower pace and enjoy it more. I don't need a car because public transport is much better than it was even in Amsterdam. 20 bucks a month covers all my travel needs. I make probably half of what I'd make in Holland but these things are so much more important. Besides, cost of living is so much cheaper here too. Just seeing prices in the supermarket in Holland makes me roll my eyes.
Not everyone puts money above everything and especially that's what I see in other EU expats too. We just want enough to live well. It's mainly the US expats here that are always chasing the extra few percent, job-hopping etc. They always have that drive to be #1. Nice for them but it's a bit exhausting too. Way too much so for me. Most of my US friends have moved to the better paying EU countries as a result.
I'm also very progressive/LGBTQ+-friendly and I would never ever even consider visiting Saudi Arabia for work. I would literally refuse. Let alone consider living there. Even if I could make 10x my wage lol. Same with Dubai. No chance. What would I do there all day? Sit in my fancy apartment watching international TV?
Here in Spain healthcare is still worry-free and included in my taxes. People live life at a slower pace and enjoy it more. I don't need a car because public transport is much better than it was even in Amsterdam. 20 bucks a month covers all my travel needs. I make probably half of what I'd make in Holland but these things are so much more important. Besides, cost of living is so much cheaper here too. Just seeing prices in the supermarket in Holland makes me roll my eyes.
Not everyone puts money above everything and especially that's what I see in other EU expats too. We just want enough to live well. It's mainly the US expats here that are always chasing the extra few percent, job-hopping etc. They always have that drive to be #1. Nice for them but it's a bit exhausting too. Way too much so for me. Most of my US friends have moved to the better paying EU countries as a result.
I'm also very progressive/LGBTQ+-friendly and I would never ever even consider visiting Saudi Arabia for work. I would literally refuse. Let alone consider living there. Even if I could make 10x my wage lol. Same with Dubai. No chance. What would I do there all day? Sit in my fancy apartment watching international TV?
Using salaries in Italy, Spain, and Hungary as means of comparison and pretending they are be representative of the "European market" reeks of dishonesty. Salaries in Germany, France and UK for those same roles are 2x or sometimes 3x higher than those mentioned in the article. This is certainly a factor for migration within Europe
> Salaries in Germany, France and UK for those same roles are 2x or sometimes 3x higher than those mentioned in the article.
Taxation. At 2x or 3x in France you'd already be at 41% income tax bracket. Then 45%.
And of course a country like France doesn't just tax income: it taxes everything, to death.
You can be making 2x that of someone in Spain, if you pay 41% on that additional money, suddenly it doesn't really like 2x anymore.
In the UAE (say, Dubai: a very thought after destination by many) there was no income tax and if there's one now, it's mild (I think 0% on the first $125 K then 9% on money above that).
France is not a net importer of talent. It's exporting a shitload of engineers to SV and the UAE. France is however a net importer of underqualified people, many of whom do not find any work, putting a strain on the economy and giving politicians the idea of taxing people who work in France even more.
In 2023 the state's income was much lower than expected, which prompted Bruno Lemaire, the economy and finance minister, to cheat and fudge the numbers to try to hide the gigantic hole. French senate called him for it.
Yup: the situation in France is that bad they now have to cheat on the numbers they present, like Greece did (and we know how it ended up for Greece).
> This is certainly a factor for migration within Europe.
Seen the current political situation in France, I don't know who'd be foolish enough to want to move there at the moment.
Taxation. At 2x or 3x in France you'd already be at 41% income tax bracket. Then 45%.
And of course a country like France doesn't just tax income: it taxes everything, to death.
You can be making 2x that of someone in Spain, if you pay 41% on that additional money, suddenly it doesn't really like 2x anymore.
In the UAE (say, Dubai: a very thought after destination by many) there was no income tax and if there's one now, it's mild (I think 0% on the first $125 K then 9% on money above that).
France is not a net importer of talent. It's exporting a shitload of engineers to SV and the UAE. France is however a net importer of underqualified people, many of whom do not find any work, putting a strain on the economy and giving politicians the idea of taxing people who work in France even more.
In 2023 the state's income was much lower than expected, which prompted Bruno Lemaire, the economy and finance minister, to cheat and fudge the numbers to try to hide the gigantic hole. French senate called him for it.
Yup: the situation in France is that bad they now have to cheat on the numbers they present, like Greece did (and we know how it ended up for Greece).
> This is certainly a factor for migration within Europe.
Seen the current political situation in France, I don't know who'd be foolish enough to want to move there at the moment.
> France is however a net importer of underqualified people, many of whom do not find any work.
Any numbers on the visa for underqualified people? I'd be surprised if this statmeent is even remotely true for legal immigration.
Any numbers on the visa for underqualified people? I'd be surprised if this statmeent is even remotely true for legal immigration.
And yet half of the ones in the US. At least based on when I got some offers last year when I was considering moving to Europe
What are you saving for? I keep hearing people in the US earn much more, and it's certainly true in absolute terms, but... I live in a poorer (but not poor, just not germany/france) EU country, with a relatively good but not great salary. I earn way more than I need - I can afford the apartment I want (recently moved to a bigger one due to becoming a parent), I know medical bills won't bankrupt me in case of emergency, I can afford things I want (computers, clothes, eating out, sport equipment, car). Despite not really trying I still save a lot of money.
At the same time, I hear about IT people living in an American metropoly, earning much more than I do, and supposedly struggling with bills. I wonder if the cost of living differences are that huge, or maybe I just have low standards, or is it something different altogether.
At the same time, I hear about IT people living in an American metropoly, earning much more than I do, and supposedly struggling with bills. I wonder if the cost of living differences are that huge, or maybe I just have low standards, or is it something different altogether.
porsche’s and penthouses
I’m saving to buy land and enjoy hobbies I wouldn’t even dream of trying in Europe because I’d be living in a small apartment. Nothing wrong with that, I actually grew up in that sort of life. I’m not your average American… I’m not even American.
My salary is modest, not Silicon Valley/Netflix senior numbers, and I don’t live paycheck to paycheck.
But the “eh it’s good enough” life of Europe and the country I grew up in is… well, too small for my dreams.
A house, land, hobbies, an emergency fund in case needing time away from work, investments, nicer things, a stay-home wife, children, traveling, supporting loved ones, there are so many possible reasons.
London is competitive with tier 2 US cities (i.e. not SF/NYC/Seattle). Switzerland is competitive even with Tier 1 US cities. COL and taxes are higher though.
So it’s not competitive if taxes are higher and COL is higher. What one cares about is the final income in pocket and purchasing power. I don’t really care if my salary says “1 million” if I keep 50k of that, I only care about the final number unless there is some tax loophole one can exercise like pre tax deductions, but still…
I don't buy that COL is significantly higher unless you're firehosing money everywhere for the hell of it. You can spend scads of money, but you're not obligated to. I lived there for five years, and left in December. My grocery bill was the same as it is now in Ireland (but still less than my parents pay in Chicagoland) and while I don't pay rent in Ireland, a friend just got a "steal" on an apartment @ €2500/mo in outer Dublin, while I was paying CHF 2250 for a 3-storey townhouse with private parking in outer Zürich. Road tax is similar. Health insurance more in CH, but we're talking 6k/yr vs 2.4k. And income tax was so low in CH that the foreign tax credit didn't do much for me, and I ended up having to cut a check to the IRS for 5 figures every year. Switzerland is truly exceptional, and you can make crazy money there.
Lifestyle is different. For example, you don't need a car in London, that's an easy 5-10k in savings per year.
EU salaries have been risible for years. My employer will give you a 3% raise every couple of years if you are lucky. When people leave management's answer is we must keep hiring.
I have been to Dubai, it was one of the worst places I have ever been to. Extremely unpleasant climate, revolting atmosphere of completely incoherent architecture, even culturally it seem to have just adopted the worst consumerism of the west and transplanted it into their native culture. I am not sure what money could even compell me to live there.