Talkin’ about a Revolution(drb.ie)
drb.ie
Talkin’ about a Revolution
https://drb.ie/articles/talkin-about-a-revolution/
300 comments
> and cannot cope with things going back to normal.
I would argue that we worked our way to the post cold-war golden age, and then destroyed it with greed, which led to financial pain, which led to political nonsense, which led to the rubbish we are in right now.
So the period we are in right now is not the "back to normal" phase, but an actual decrease of human evolution. Not dissimilar to things that happened in the past, for example with the collapse of the roman empire.
I would argue that we worked our way to the post cold-war golden age, and then destroyed it with greed, which led to financial pain, which led to political nonsense, which led to the rubbish we are in right now.
So the period we are in right now is not the "back to normal" phase, but an actual decrease of human evolution. Not dissimilar to things that happened in the past, for example with the collapse of the roman empire.
"People do not change that much morally."
Greed is part of what humans are. It's part of what destroys societies. Building a society that can survive human nature long term is an unsolved problem.
You sound like you expected that, after the end of the Cold War, we had a perfect society, and then we fell from a state of grace and ruined it. No, after the end of the Cold War, the pressure was removed that had been keeping us from acting on our worst impulses. Turns out that many of us were worse than we expected.
Greed is part of what humans are. It's part of what destroys societies. Building a society that can survive human nature long term is an unsolved problem.
You sound like you expected that, after the end of the Cold War, we had a perfect society, and then we fell from a state of grace and ruined it. No, after the end of the Cold War, the pressure was removed that had been keeping us from acting on our worst impulses. Turns out that many of us were worse than we expected.
I would add pride, wrath, envy, lust, gluttony, and sloth. (CatGPT did a pretty good job: https://dpaste.com/HTS9DWRNZ-preview)
Woe, Frolic, Dread, Malice - world needs to be severed.
Wait tell me more about CatGPT
I prefer Clawed
Yeah, we need a better take on society and education --- see the discussion of Ursula K. LeGuin's essay "The Child and the Shadow":
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43525079
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43525079
> People do not change all that much morally
This is debatable. In fact, the US culture war is absolutely about what American "morality" should be. It's what a lot of the Project 2025 Manifesto is about:
"The document spans a wide range of policy areas, but when it comes to culture, family, and morality, it emphasizes a return to traditional values, a rollback of progressive social policies, and an assertive use of federal power to reshape American culture"
There's a reason it's called a Culture War and not a Culture Mild Disagreement.
This is debatable. In fact, the US culture war is absolutely about what American "morality" should be. It's what a lot of the Project 2025 Manifesto is about:
"The document spans a wide range of policy areas, but when it comes to culture, family, and morality, it emphasizes a return to traditional values, a rollback of progressive social policies, and an assertive use of federal power to reshape American culture"
There's a reason it's called a Culture War and not a Culture Mild Disagreement.
> There's a reason it's called a Culture War and not a Culture Mild Disagreement.
Culture war at this point is more than a decade old. It did not start with Project 2025. It started on the Internet.
Also, GP said people do not change all that much morally. That much is true. Organizations change fast. Societies change slower. The acted on rules are a combination of three, but it's important to be aware of the distinctions and the dynamics.
Culture war at this point is more than a decade old. It did not start with Project 2025. It started on the Internet.
Also, GP said people do not change all that much morally. That much is true. Organizations change fast. Societies change slower. The acted on rules are a combination of three, but it's important to be aware of the distinctions and the dynamics.
Frankly, the culture war started in earnest in the late 60s.
So you weren't around for the 20s? The last 20s?
As old as I am, I wasn't here for the 60s either, though both would have been a total blast
[deleted]
Eh I remember the culture wars from the 90s [0].
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_war#:~:text=1991%E2%80...
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_war#:~:text=1991%E2%80...
I'm not sure that makes sense to me; how do society's moral rules change (slowly) but peoples' moral rules don't/change little? I mean I can think of some isolated examples like pirating video content, but generally a society's moral rules reflect its constituents; where else do those rules come from, if not its people?
Culture. Humans have pretty stable moral intuitions about the basics - fairness, reciprocity, value of life; AFAIK they're consistent throughout time and space as far as history goes[0], and form a common base from which more complex morality stems.
In short: "theft is bad" is something people are born with[1]; "pirating media is bad" isn't; the former will be universal wherever you go, the latter depends strongly on who you ask[2]; the former is constant throughout history, the latter can change within months or years.
On a more general point, human society is the poster child of "the whole is more than the sum of its parts" - there's a lot of ideas and institutions in our lives that are purely abstract, and exist only in the shared, social sphere. Things like money, rule of law, countries or corporations - they exist as long as people expect them to exist, but ultimately they can disappear overnight - unlike the more fundamental concepts like self-preservation or reciprocity, which are anchored in our selves.
--
[0] - If it weren't, we would have much more trouble understanding or relating to the past; the saying is that the past is a foreign country, not that it's an alien species!
[1] - Or at least it's as close to innate as we can get.
[2] - And, of course, the progress of science and technologies that made this question meaningful in the first place.
In short: "theft is bad" is something people are born with[1]; "pirating media is bad" isn't; the former will be universal wherever you go, the latter depends strongly on who you ask[2]; the former is constant throughout history, the latter can change within months or years.
On a more general point, human society is the poster child of "the whole is more than the sum of its parts" - there's a lot of ideas and institutions in our lives that are purely abstract, and exist only in the shared, social sphere. Things like money, rule of law, countries or corporations - they exist as long as people expect them to exist, but ultimately they can disappear overnight - unlike the more fundamental concepts like self-preservation or reciprocity, which are anchored in our selves.
--
[0] - If it weren't, we would have much more trouble understanding or relating to the past; the saying is that the past is a foreign country, not that it's an alien species!
[1] - Or at least it's as close to innate as we can get.
[2] - And, of course, the progress of science and technologies that made this question meaningful in the first place.
My experience is there's also a fundamentally inborn notion of "fair price" and "fair pay" that people are born with, that they have to be educated out of to operate successfully in the modern economy. It's one way in which our system is kinda anti-human—it assumes a kind of game-playing that's seen as wrong by people, naturally, and you have to play that game or you can't succeed. "What the market will bear" doesn't feel fair to people until they're made to see it as fair.
Price is just a symptom or manifestation. People naturally see it as unfair to take advantage of someone based on a power imbalance or information asymmetry. So charging an excessive price or paying a starvation wage is just one way to take advantage, but there are other non-monetary ways as well. Attempts to impose "fair" price or wage controls by legislative fiat or cultural norms are doomed to fail because they don't resolve the underlying cause.
"AFAIK they're consistent throughout time and space as far as history goes[0], and form a common base from which more complex morality stems."
Not even close! Universalized morality (e.g., "stealing is wrong") is a product of the last couple thousand years, and it's only present in some modern humans. It is the foundation of WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic) psychology.
If you're curious about what other kinds of human experience can be like, I recommend checking out some ethnographies. Here's a summary of one: https://peacefulsocieties.uncg.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/1...
Not even close! Universalized morality (e.g., "stealing is wrong") is a product of the last couple thousand years, and it's only present in some modern humans. It is the foundation of WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic) psychology.
If you're curious about what other kinds of human experience can be like, I recommend checking out some ethnographies. Here's a summary of one: https://peacefulsocieties.uncg.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/1...
I think you missed “in group” vs “out group” in this comment?
I would think that the distinction lies in the time it takes to reach consensus. An individual person's moral values may change rapidly without the need for external validation. A book club may take a few weeks of debate over a heavily philosophical book to modify the perceived moral values of the group as a whole. But stretching large moral shifts across an entire populace would probably take more time and a more concerted effort to accomplish. New ideas or values need time to be sorted, whether they be picked up into the mainstream view or dropped into unfavourability.
[deleted]
Your quoted sentence is an example of a group of people who have no idea of how to run a country. They are using the uneducated voter to support an agenda that is mostly unconstitutional. We Americans, just like other countries with a rule of law, determine our own culture within those laws.
To use federal power to reshape our culture is both arrogant and, since Project 2025 is how they want to do the reshaping, is against the New Testament principle of "live and let live". (another way to state this principle is: "Christian, mind your own business and stay in your lane.")
To use federal power to reshape our culture is both arrogant and, since Project 2025 is how they want to do the reshaping, is against the New Testament principle of "live and let live". (another way to state this principle is: "Christian, mind your own business and stay in your lane.")
This doesn't really make sense. The Democrats mainly, but also Republicans, have been reshaping our culture using federal funding for many many years now, using rules associated with federal funding, decisions for where federal funding goes to (one clear example being museum and arts funding), policies handed down from Department of Education and other federal organizations and departments, etc etc.
I guess more people notice it now that Republicans are doing this so openly but the use of federal power to reshape our culture is a well established process.
Also what does live and let live get them, especially with the other side pushing so hard? A slippery slope to an immoral society.
I guess more people notice it now that Republicans are doing this so openly but the use of federal power to reshape our culture is a well established process.
Also what does live and let live get them, especially with the other side pushing so hard? A slippery slope to an immoral society.
Just to add a bit more credence to this post, I'd point to Thomas Sowell's "The Vision of the Anointed" which is 30 years old and discusses the intrusion of the federal government in shaping culture from the perspective of the right over many decades.
I've noticed that left leaning individuals tend to view their philosophies as neutral and when the federal government exerts its power in continuance of these philosophies it is viewed as a neutral application of the constitution. The right currently sees what they are doing in exactly the same way, a neutral application of the constitution.
I actually think we have two conflicting constitutions at this point. The rigid written one we are all familiar with, and a more flexible unwritten one that is based on precedent, regulation, and legislation. The right tends to prefer the former, the left the latter. As an example I think Roe v. Wade, ended up being a part of this unwritten constitution which conflicted with the written constitution. You then saw this culminate in the Dobbs decision where the left thinks a right has been taken away and the right thinks it was never a right according to the constitution.
I've noticed that left leaning individuals tend to view their philosophies as neutral and when the federal government exerts its power in continuance of these philosophies it is viewed as a neutral application of the constitution. The right currently sees what they are doing in exactly the same way, a neutral application of the constitution.
I actually think we have two conflicting constitutions at this point. The rigid written one we are all familiar with, and a more flexible unwritten one that is based on precedent, regulation, and legislation. The right tends to prefer the former, the left the latter. As an example I think Roe v. Wade, ended up being a part of this unwritten constitution which conflicted with the written constitution. You then saw this culminate in the Dobbs decision where the left thinks a right has been taken away and the right thinks it was never a right according to the constitution.
What you call an "unwritten constitution" is the fundamental idea behind common law, which is basically the default in majority-English-speaking countries. Outside the Anglosphere[0] the standard is "civil law", which means that the law is only the stuff that was actually written down and decided upon by the parliamentary body. Everything else is optional; you aren't forced to "obey precedent", but may "follow jurisprudence" if such rulings provide relevant argumentation to the facts of the case.
This isn't a left/right thing, it's a British/French thing. And being a former British colony, America is very strictly a common law country. That's why we even have to care about the Supreme Court at all. The Constitution merely says that there is a thing called a "Supreme Court", and that Congress can make more courts if it wants to. In the early days of America, SCOTUS got handed to them a constitutional crisis, squinted at the Constitution, remembered how common law precedent actually works, and said, "well, that means we have the power of judicial review".
So naturally, the Constitution always has an unwritten component; to get rid of that would be effectively making a new Constitution. What people are squabbling over is what should and shouldn't be in the unwritten component, not whether or not it exists. Originalism and textualism deny the unwritten component, but nobody is actually an Originalist or textualist. There's no historical justification for the people who wrote the Constitution to want a civil law interpretation of it. Remember, they were all British lawyers and politicians. What Originalists and textualists are actually doing is using their ideology as an excuse to overturn precedent they don't like. If they were really Originalists, they'd be shutting SCOTUS down.
[0] Sharia Law and Mao-style "We won't tell you what the law is" bullshit notwithstanding
This isn't a left/right thing, it's a British/French thing. And being a former British colony, America is very strictly a common law country. That's why we even have to care about the Supreme Court at all. The Constitution merely says that there is a thing called a "Supreme Court", and that Congress can make more courts if it wants to. In the early days of America, SCOTUS got handed to them a constitutional crisis, squinted at the Constitution, remembered how common law precedent actually works, and said, "well, that means we have the power of judicial review".
So naturally, the Constitution always has an unwritten component; to get rid of that would be effectively making a new Constitution. What people are squabbling over is what should and shouldn't be in the unwritten component, not whether or not it exists. Originalism and textualism deny the unwritten component, but nobody is actually an Originalist or textualist. There's no historical justification for the people who wrote the Constitution to want a civil law interpretation of it. Remember, they were all British lawyers and politicians. What Originalists and textualists are actually doing is using their ideology as an excuse to overturn precedent they don't like. If they were really Originalists, they'd be shutting SCOTUS down.
[0] Sharia Law and Mao-style "We won't tell you what the law is" bullshit notwithstanding
My abortion example may have muddied my point more than it helped, sorry about that. Let me try to articulate it more clearly. I'm (mostly) not discussing common law as I am focusing on the federal level. Common law tends to be more of a state concept (except Louisiana). As the Supreme Court held in Erie:
"Except in matters governed by the Federal Constitution or by Acts of Congress, the law to be applied in any case is the law of the State. And whether the law of the State shall be declared by its Legislature in a statute or by its highest court in a decision is not a matter of federal concern. There is no federal general common law. Congress has no power to declare substantive rules of common law applicable in a State, whether they be local in their nature or "general," be they commercial law or a part of the law of torts. And no clause in the Constitution purports to confer such a power upon the federal courts."
There are matters of common law at the federal level, but they're not central to my broader point. When I say "unwritten constitution" I am referring to a set of laws, statutes, customs, and judicial decisions which together form an unwritten constitution that are non-binding to future legislative efforts. The Magna Carta and the 1689 English Bill of Rights still make up a part of the unwritten constitution of the UK, although the former is mostly symbolic at this point. However, no parliament can bind a future parliament in the UK. So if they wanted to repeal the 1689 Bill of Rights they could do so legislatively right now. The major advancement of the founding generation was the idea of a written constitution, one that could bind future legislators - and technically the other branches - so that the constitution itself had to be changed through a separate process. In other words Congress cannot repeal our Bill of Rights right now, it would have to go through the arduous amendment process. So when I speak of an unwritten constitution I am referring specifically to the non-binding nature of the laws and statutes that make up a set of foundational rules for a society. The phrases "unwritten constitution" and "written constitution" are fairly old and unfortunately are a bit of a misnomer in what they actually mean.
> The Constitution merely says that there is a thing called a "Supreme Court", and that Congress can make more courts if it wants to.
That's actually a good place to start for an example. Chief Justice Roberts stated recently that "[f]or more than two centuries, it has been established that impeachment is not an appropriate response to disagreement concerning a judicial decision. The normal appellate review process exists for that purpose." This highlights my point fairly well. The written constitution, the one that cannot be changed through normal legislative means, makes no such determination as to what is or is not appropriate and merely grants Congress the power of impeachment without even defining what high crimes or misdemeanors means. What I would argue has become a part of our unwritten constitution is as Roberts describes, a set of appellate courts with specific jurisdiction where the appropriate course of action for an unfavorable opinion is to appeal. However, Congress can add or remove inferior courts and determine their procedural rules and jurisdiction pretty much at will. In other words this set of courts, laws and customs developed by the legislator does not bar a future legislator from changing it to something wholly different if they so desire.
Another example would be independent agencies under the executive which has become a hot button topic lately. Article 2 Section 1 states that "[t]he executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America." However, for a long time now we have had independent agencies which were created legislatively with a certain degree of insulation from Presidential control. I would argue that this is another example of a part of an unwritten constitution that does not bind any future legislator. It's also an area of extreme friction between the written one and the set of laws, customs, and precedent that we have developed over many decades.
Hopefully those two examples are more informative as neither are really central to common law.
> In the early days of America, SCOTUS got handed to them a constitutional crisis, squinted at the Constitution, remembered how common law precedent actually works, and said, "well, that means we have the power of judicial review".
That deserves a reply far longer than I can provide here. In general while I see the utility of judicial review I would argue it doesn't make sense when it comes to disputes between the federal government and a state, i.e. the federal government via the judiciary gets to have the final word over what is constitutional when a state challenges the federal government over the constitutionality of some federal action. I would also argue that Marbury v. Madison was one of the first bricks of an unwritten constitution being constructed as for the most part everyone just passively accepted it, but it is not explicitly called out in Article 3. However, there are good arguments against this.
"Except in matters governed by the Federal Constitution or by Acts of Congress, the law to be applied in any case is the law of the State. And whether the law of the State shall be declared by its Legislature in a statute or by its highest court in a decision is not a matter of federal concern. There is no federal general common law. Congress has no power to declare substantive rules of common law applicable in a State, whether they be local in their nature or "general," be they commercial law or a part of the law of torts. And no clause in the Constitution purports to confer such a power upon the federal courts."
There are matters of common law at the federal level, but they're not central to my broader point. When I say "unwritten constitution" I am referring to a set of laws, statutes, customs, and judicial decisions which together form an unwritten constitution that are non-binding to future legislative efforts. The Magna Carta and the 1689 English Bill of Rights still make up a part of the unwritten constitution of the UK, although the former is mostly symbolic at this point. However, no parliament can bind a future parliament in the UK. So if they wanted to repeal the 1689 Bill of Rights they could do so legislatively right now. The major advancement of the founding generation was the idea of a written constitution, one that could bind future legislators - and technically the other branches - so that the constitution itself had to be changed through a separate process. In other words Congress cannot repeal our Bill of Rights right now, it would have to go through the arduous amendment process. So when I speak of an unwritten constitution I am referring specifically to the non-binding nature of the laws and statutes that make up a set of foundational rules for a society. The phrases "unwritten constitution" and "written constitution" are fairly old and unfortunately are a bit of a misnomer in what they actually mean.
> The Constitution merely says that there is a thing called a "Supreme Court", and that Congress can make more courts if it wants to.
That's actually a good place to start for an example. Chief Justice Roberts stated recently that "[f]or more than two centuries, it has been established that impeachment is not an appropriate response to disagreement concerning a judicial decision. The normal appellate review process exists for that purpose." This highlights my point fairly well. The written constitution, the one that cannot be changed through normal legislative means, makes no such determination as to what is or is not appropriate and merely grants Congress the power of impeachment without even defining what high crimes or misdemeanors means. What I would argue has become a part of our unwritten constitution is as Roberts describes, a set of appellate courts with specific jurisdiction where the appropriate course of action for an unfavorable opinion is to appeal. However, Congress can add or remove inferior courts and determine their procedural rules and jurisdiction pretty much at will. In other words this set of courts, laws and customs developed by the legislator does not bar a future legislator from changing it to something wholly different if they so desire.
Another example would be independent agencies under the executive which has become a hot button topic lately. Article 2 Section 1 states that "[t]he executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America." However, for a long time now we have had independent agencies which were created legislatively with a certain degree of insulation from Presidential control. I would argue that this is another example of a part of an unwritten constitution that does not bind any future legislator. It's also an area of extreme friction between the written one and the set of laws, customs, and precedent that we have developed over many decades.
Hopefully those two examples are more informative as neither are really central to common law.
> In the early days of America, SCOTUS got handed to them a constitutional crisis, squinted at the Constitution, remembered how common law precedent actually works, and said, "well, that means we have the power of judicial review".
That deserves a reply far longer than I can provide here. In general while I see the utility of judicial review I would argue it doesn't make sense when it comes to disputes between the federal government and a state, i.e. the federal government via the judiciary gets to have the final word over what is constitutional when a state challenges the federal government over the constitutionality of some federal action. I would also argue that Marbury v. Madison was one of the first bricks of an unwritten constitution being constructed as for the most part everyone just passively accepted it, but it is not explicitly called out in Article 3. However, there are good arguments against this.
You cannot legislate mortality. Yes, federal power/funding is the norm, but not within the confines of religious control, which is what the Project 2025 is all about.
The so called slippery slope is a worn out trope from the 80's, that has lost all meaning under the current administration. This is why live and let live works, as long as we all obey the law. We have to realize the rule of law is for everyone to adhere to, it doesn't matter how hard either side pushes, the only other option is jail.
The so called slippery slope is a worn out trope from the 80's, that has lost all meaning under the current administration. This is why live and let live works, as long as we all obey the law. We have to realize the rule of law is for everyone to adhere to, it doesn't matter how hard either side pushes, the only other option is jail.
I think the slippery slope argument from the perspective of the right has all but been proven beyond a doubt.
Yes, but their context is somewhat backward from the meaning in the 80's. Then it meant the danger of giving a little on any issue, fearful it would decay into chaos. Now the chaos is in "who gives a damn what anybody thinks" mode. (ala, Elon, the press secretary, JFK,jr and the rest of the cabinet.)
As always, much of the conflict comes down to what constitutes "your lane".
The government we have is far from a libertarian "live and let live", regulating nearly every aspect of life and taxing one person to give to another.
It decides what children are taught, who can work jobs, what is a crime, and who pays for different services.
The government we have is far from a libertarian "live and let live", regulating nearly every aspect of life and taxing one person to give to another.
It decides what children are taught, who can work jobs, what is a crime, and who pays for different services.
Absolutely true, the Constitution has to be the norm for society. Religious people, such as myself, must find a way to live within it. (easy for me, not so much for others.) The current administration, supposedly run by Christians, are far afield of their "lane", but don't seem to care. Your last sentence is the one that worries me the most, because of what the Project 2025 could morph into, meaning outside the parameters of the Constitution.
Honestly, the way I see it: The people behind the 2025 stuff etc have been on the "losing" side of the culture war since 1969.
And they're sick of it, they're desperate, and now are just laying their cards on the table.
I grew up in an evangelical church in the 80s-- albeit in Canada -- attending "Focus on the Family" events, Bible studies, etc. that promulgated heavy socially conservative ethos -- so I feel like I have seen this narrative play out over a few decades ...
After the legalization of gay marriage they just collectively lost their shit. They see the stakes as being incredibly high. They see abortion as straight up murder. Winning the 2016 Trump presidency and taking over the US supreme court gave them a taste of blood, and a sense that they can finally reverse what they see as a profound descent into degeneracy. The trans rights stuff over the last few years has them totally incensed, as its a full-on assault (to them) on the ontological reality of family, body, identity, etc. that they consider intrinsic and holy and fundamental.
I think they're full of shit, but that's I think how this world view shakes down. It's a war because they feel the stakes are incredibly high.
People on the right or in boardrooms of various companies that are aligning themselves with these people for what they see are strategic ends are playing with fire.
And they're sick of it, they're desperate, and now are just laying their cards on the table.
I grew up in an evangelical church in the 80s-- albeit in Canada -- attending "Focus on the Family" events, Bible studies, etc. that promulgated heavy socially conservative ethos -- so I feel like I have seen this narrative play out over a few decades ...
After the legalization of gay marriage they just collectively lost their shit. They see the stakes as being incredibly high. They see abortion as straight up murder. Winning the 2016 Trump presidency and taking over the US supreme court gave them a taste of blood, and a sense that they can finally reverse what they see as a profound descent into degeneracy. The trans rights stuff over the last few years has them totally incensed, as its a full-on assault (to them) on the ontological reality of family, body, identity, etc. that they consider intrinsic and holy and fundamental.
I think they're full of shit, but that's I think how this world view shakes down. It's a war because they feel the stakes are incredibly high.
People on the right or in boardrooms of various companies that are aligning themselves with these people for what they see are strategic ends are playing with fire.
As someone who grew up in an evangelical environment, this is exactly my read as well. The problem is they might still be able to "win" via a sufficient application of violence, aka state power, despite being wrong and in the minority.
I mean are we talking about the USA here or Iran?
The evangelicals believe that anyone who doesn't believe in their god will be tortured by their god for eternity. There's nothing worse than eternal torture, so they see it as their moral obligation to do anything at all to prevent others from being tortured for eternity by their god. Nothing they do to others can possibly be worse than that, so as long as they're focused on saving others any actions they take are justified (to them).
Their god considers gay sex a crime worthy of eternal torture. So anything they do to prevent people from having homosexual encounters is morally acceptable, up to and including torture & occasional execution via "conversion therapy".
Anyone who truly believes in hell is either morally bankrupt & willing to allow others to suffer for eternity, or a dangerous monster who will stop at nothing to prevent others from what they see as sinning.
Many of them don't go to the extremes they would if they actually believed they were saving others from hell. They're full of shit. But some of them do, and they're fucking terrifying.
Their god considers gay sex a crime worthy of eternal torture. So anything they do to prevent people from having homosexual encounters is morally acceptable, up to and including torture & occasional execution via "conversion therapy".
Anyone who truly believes in hell is either morally bankrupt & willing to allow others to suffer for eternity, or a dangerous monster who will stop at nothing to prevent others from what they see as sinning.
Many of them don't go to the extremes they would if they actually believed they were saving others from hell. They're full of shit. But some of them do, and they're fucking terrifying.
Which means either they don't really believe in the exercise of free will, or they don't believe God is in control of who gets saved (predestination). Either way, they're not acting according to their interpretation of scripture. Being saved for a Christian shouldn't be up to governments. It wasn't for the early Christians. It was an individual choice. They're acting more like Constantine.
The pushback against trans rights advocacy is quite interesting because unlike with same-sex marriage, there are several distinct groups opposing it for fundamentally different reasons. Religious conservatives are one group. Radical feminists, female athletes, medical whistleblowers are others. And almost everyone draws a firm line against accepting gender identity beliefs in their romantic and sexual lives.
Trying to redefine "woman" and "man", "female" and "male", "homosexual" and "heterosexual" - and then reengineering society by decree based on these controversial redefinitions - is going to get opposition across the board.
I think this is why it's become such a hot "culture war" topic, because it undermines the deeply-held views of many, many more people than just religious conservatives.
Take gay marriage for instance - this was fought both for and against on the basis of it being a same-sex union. But from the perspective of gender identity believers, if, for example, someone female merely identifies as male, then marries a male (who also identifies as male), then this is a "gay marriage" too. Despite this actually being a heterosexual pairing.
On top of this, where these beliefs have been forced into law and policy, it has caused actual physical harms. Women being raped and impregnated by male prisoners who identified their way into the female prison estate is amongst the worst of these. But lawmakers in states that have enabled this will claim it's progressive policy, somehow. Even though it's regressing back to over a century ago when mixed-sex prisons where commonplace and incarcerated women were at constant risk of sexual violence and exploitation from the men they were locked up with.
Trying to redefine "woman" and "man", "female" and "male", "homosexual" and "heterosexual" - and then reengineering society by decree based on these controversial redefinitions - is going to get opposition across the board.
I think this is why it's become such a hot "culture war" topic, because it undermines the deeply-held views of many, many more people than just religious conservatives.
Take gay marriage for instance - this was fought both for and against on the basis of it being a same-sex union. But from the perspective of gender identity believers, if, for example, someone female merely identifies as male, then marries a male (who also identifies as male), then this is a "gay marriage" too. Despite this actually being a heterosexual pairing.
On top of this, where these beliefs have been forced into law and policy, it has caused actual physical harms. Women being raped and impregnated by male prisoners who identified their way into the female prison estate is amongst the worst of these. But lawmakers in states that have enabled this will claim it's progressive policy, somehow. Even though it's regressing back to over a century ago when mixed-sex prisons where commonplace and incarcerated women were at constant risk of sexual violence and exploitation from the men they were locked up with.
I dunno man, "citation needed" about a lot of your screed.
On the whole the freaking out about "trans" stuff is mostly a red herring or strawman used for strategic propagandistic purposes more than it is reflecting any real world problematic.
Making outlandish claims about how liberals are trying to do X, Y, and Z to their children's education or sports forces liberals onto the defensive forcing them to defend hormone therapy for 12 year olds or whatever when the actual number of real world incidents of this is vanishingly small.
I don't personally carry any kind of radical gender identity theory, but I care about the rights of minorities and it's none of my business what other people do and I see no problem with the public and corporate sphere accomodate pronoun usages or even bathroom accomodations, it's unlikely to cause harms and it doesn't hurt me in the slightest.
It's also somewhat ... interesting ... to bring up defense of female prisoner's rights and their conditions as some kind of demarcation point.
Is the socially conservative right concerned about humane prisons now?
Because that would be great. But unlikely.
On the whole the freaking out about "trans" stuff is mostly a red herring or strawman used for strategic propagandistic purposes more than it is reflecting any real world problematic.
Making outlandish claims about how liberals are trying to do X, Y, and Z to their children's education or sports forces liberals onto the defensive forcing them to defend hormone therapy for 12 year olds or whatever when the actual number of real world incidents of this is vanishingly small.
I don't personally carry any kind of radical gender identity theory, but I care about the rights of minorities and it's none of my business what other people do and I see no problem with the public and corporate sphere accomodate pronoun usages or even bathroom accomodations, it's unlikely to cause harms and it doesn't hurt me in the slightest.
It's also somewhat ... interesting ... to bring up defense of female prisoner's rights and their conditions as some kind of demarcation point.
Is the socially conservative right concerned about humane prisons now?
Because that would be great. But unlikely.
> Is the socially conservative right concerned about humane prisons now?
> Because that would be great. But unlikely.
I don't know where I'm at on this, but this is ad hominem. You can't discredit an argument based on who's making it. If you're opposed to humane prisons, just say so. But that's not what I'm getting.
> Because that would be great. But unlikely.
I don't know where I'm at on this, but this is ad hominem. You can't discredit an argument based on who's making it. If you're opposed to humane prisons, just say so. But that's not what I'm getting.
Why would you blanket care about the rights of minorities? I care about the rights of lots of beings, but not minorities for minorities sake.
The person isn't making outlandish claims. You can search the web and validate all of them.
Liberals, as in new leftists responsible for the majority of purity spiral shaming we've seen on the internet for oh the last two decades now, are in fact responsible for their fair share of extremist ideologies that some folks have now taken as self-evident. This is despite the fact that many of us who once considered ourselves part of their ranks are completely sick of its absolutist language.
I've been pushed into what I guess must be a kind of center because it seems we can no longer have any discourse of any nuance around issues like trans people without being labeled a fascist or maniac neo-Nazi right-winger.
To take an example of this, I have a very close friend who is trans but even she is sick of how faddish transness has become. She insists she's a trans-medicalist, something I only recently learned about, which seems to set the bar appropriately high to being what global society (not the ultra-left view that dominates places like HN and Reddit) deems a woman.
I actually do believe in biological gender and even think the fact biological women are out there bleeding and suffering once a month in ways men can't even begin to understand does in fact separate them from other people stating they are now a woman. Or literally growing a human being inside them is both a privilege and a horror that marks someone so indelibly we call this person a woman.
Yet I can no longer reasonably even engage most of you in a nuanced discourse about this without likely getting downvoted to oblivion. There was a time once when you could, but now it seems that time has passed.
The person isn't making outlandish claims. You can search the web and validate all of them.
Liberals, as in new leftists responsible for the majority of purity spiral shaming we've seen on the internet for oh the last two decades now, are in fact responsible for their fair share of extremist ideologies that some folks have now taken as self-evident. This is despite the fact that many of us who once considered ourselves part of their ranks are completely sick of its absolutist language.
I've been pushed into what I guess must be a kind of center because it seems we can no longer have any discourse of any nuance around issues like trans people without being labeled a fascist or maniac neo-Nazi right-winger.
To take an example of this, I have a very close friend who is trans but even she is sick of how faddish transness has become. She insists she's a trans-medicalist, something I only recently learned about, which seems to set the bar appropriately high to being what global society (not the ultra-left view that dominates places like HN and Reddit) deems a woman.
I actually do believe in biological gender and even think the fact biological women are out there bleeding and suffering once a month in ways men can't even begin to understand does in fact separate them from other people stating they are now a woman. Or literally growing a human being inside them is both a privilege and a horror that marks someone so indelibly we call this person a woman.
Yet I can no longer reasonably even engage most of you in a nuanced discourse about this without likely getting downvoted to oblivion. There was a time once when you could, but now it seems that time has passed.
Try repeating the paragraph before the last to your "friend". Even transmedicalists tend to not be fond of this line of thinking.
> but now it seems that time has passed.
I am glad. I have yet to see any form of actually nuanced discussion about this that involves a cis person so far.
Anyway, none of this is "center".
> but now it seems that time has passed.
I am glad. I have yet to see any form of actually nuanced discussion about this that involves a cis person so far.
Anyway, none of this is "center".
And you have illustrated my point perfectly, even down to using air quotes to describe a relationship of my own. Did you intend to go further and perhaps call me something truly awful? As I am not "center" according to you.
I am able to maintain friendships with people I disagree with, even on very fundamental things.
You capture exactly the drift that has occurred in discourse, where neither side is able to talk to each other with any level-headedness, but remains fixed in escalation, certain the other side intends their extinction.
I am able to maintain friendships with people I disagree with, even on very fundamental things.
You capture exactly the drift that has occurred in discourse, where neither side is able to talk to each other with any level-headedness, but remains fixed in escalation, certain the other side intends their extinction.
I think trans advocacy is interesting and different from gay rights because it goes beyond "live and let live" and is also an ontological battle. That is to say, it is a battle not just for equal rights, but over what people think, believe, and desire.
It ask is not just for the right to exist, but to be placed within the gender heterosexuals are attracted to and accepted as no different. In this way, it lacks the libertarian arguments of gay rights.
The movement is is inherently cultural and poorly suited for adjudication the legal/political sphere. Courts and laws can't make people love, accept, or believe someone is a given gender.
It ask is not just for the right to exist, but to be placed within the gender heterosexuals are attracted to and accepted as no different. In this way, it lacks the libertarian arguments of gay rights.
The movement is is inherently cultural and poorly suited for adjudication the legal/political sphere. Courts and laws can't make people love, accept, or believe someone is a given gender.
Maybe you're too young to remember when "gay rights" was also an "ontological battle" ? -- a huge a fight over whether such an "identity" was anything other than a fundamental deviance, and a lot of rhetoric to the effect that it violates "natural order." It wasn't just theological thing from Christians, it came from the mainstream of society.
Some people still speak this way in North America but it is fringe. It wasn't fringe when I was a kid. It was the expected way of thinking about sexuality.
In the early 80s at least there was only two "mainstream" ways to talk about homosexuality, as far as I can recall:
1. what happens in people's bedrooms is none of my business, just don't talk about it in public and expect tolerance, or
2. this is total deviance and a mental illness and needs to be cured. (Oh, and they deserve HIV for such unnatural behaviour.)
That changed, but only in the 90s/2000s, to an understanding that homosexuality itself is "natural" ("born this way"), and the so-called iron-clad laws of natural behaviour were "allowed" to include homosexuality. And even gay marriage.
Appeals to laws of nature and assumptions about what is natural mask ideology, and often look completely ridiculous 50 years later.
Some people still speak this way in North America but it is fringe. It wasn't fringe when I was a kid. It was the expected way of thinking about sexuality.
In the early 80s at least there was only two "mainstream" ways to talk about homosexuality, as far as I can recall:
1. what happens in people's bedrooms is none of my business, just don't talk about it in public and expect tolerance, or
2. this is total deviance and a mental illness and needs to be cured. (Oh, and they deserve HIV for such unnatural behaviour.)
That changed, but only in the 90s/2000s, to an understanding that homosexuality itself is "natural" ("born this way"), and the so-called iron-clad laws of natural behaviour were "allowed" to include homosexuality. And even gay marriage.
Appeals to laws of nature and assumptions about what is natural mask ideology, and often look completely ridiculous 50 years later.
I remember the nature vs nurture debate, and always disagreed with it. I think it pigeon holed and disempowered the gay and the queer community for decades. I think it overstated the science, and understated the value of human autonomy.
That said, the battleground was about what they could do, so a live and let live compromise was possible. Gradual acceptance followed and continues increasing today.
With Trans, there battleground is belief, and even more critically, identity. Accepting homosexuals didnt require people to redefine themselves, their own gender, and that of the one they are attracted to. Self identity is incredibly important to people.
That said, the battleground was about what they could do, so a live and let live compromise was possible. Gradual acceptance followed and continues increasing today.
With Trans, there battleground is belief, and even more critically, identity. Accepting homosexuals didnt require people to redefine themselves, their own gender, and that of the one they are attracted to. Self identity is incredibly important to people.
Conservatives present it that way, but I haven't seen that in practice. The majority of trans people are perfectly happy with people believing whatever they want as long as they treat other people with respect and don't discriminate against them.
I guess it really depends on the space. The trans debate is happening online in an extreme way that simply wasn't possible during gay rights movement of the 90s and early 2000's.
I agree that most of my trans coworkers and acquaintances seem satisfied with being treated the respect I give anyone, and keep any unflattering thoughts to myself. Meanwhile, there is a contingent of zealots on reddit that call me a bigot if I dont want to date a trans-woman or think biology should be considered in sports. Is that discrimination?
What is discrimination? Is it any delineation in treatment or perception from a cis-gendered person?
I have given a lot of thought to the topic because I support others having personal autonomy, but place value on my conceptions of gender.
I agree that most of my trans coworkers and acquaintances seem satisfied with being treated the respect I give anyone, and keep any unflattering thoughts to myself. Meanwhile, there is a contingent of zealots on reddit that call me a bigot if I dont want to date a trans-woman or think biology should be considered in sports. Is that discrimination?
What is discrimination? Is it any delineation in treatment or perception from a cis-gendered person?
I have given a lot of thought to the topic because I support others having personal autonomy, but place value on my conceptions of gender.
> It ask is not just for the right to exist, but to be placed within the gender heterosexuals are attracted to and accepted as no different. In this way, it lacks the libertarian arguments of gay rights.
No one is forcing you to date someone you're not attracted to.
No one is forcing you to date someone you're not attracted to.
I find that to be an extremely common argument against trans ppl. It's very similar to the whole gay panic thing. I was surprised when I realized how worried some cis men were about being "tricked" into sleeping with a trans person. As if there are so many trans people and as if all of them want to get into their pants.
> It's very similar to the whole gay panic thing. I was surprised when I realized how worried some cis men were about being "tricked" into sleeping with a trans person.
Most of the time I see the argument that people feel pressured/forced to date someone they're not attracted to it's not about men being "tricked"
https://web.archive.org/web/20211028041752/https://www.bbc.c...
Most of the time I see the argument that people feel pressured/forced to date someone they're not attracted to it's not about men being "tricked"
https://web.archive.org/web/20211028041752/https://www.bbc.c...
Ditto.
I talked to a history professor recently and asked him how he viewed the whole situation.
He leaned back, thought for a bit and answered:
It’ll be all fine on a 200 years perspective, democracy will continue to increase its footprint, people will lead better lives.
It’s the next 30 years I’m worried about.
PS: ofc, I have no clue if he’s right or not. But I thought it’s an interesting take to share.
He leaned back, thought for a bit and answered:
It’ll be all fine on a 200 years perspective, democracy will continue to increase its footprint, people will lead better lives.
It’s the next 30 years I’m worried about.
PS: ofc, I have no clue if he’s right or not. But I thought it’s an interesting take to share.
I have no comment on what your professor said, but reading the replies here just confirms to me that cynicism, pessimism and doomerism are certainly the mood of the current zeitgeist. Optimistic outlooks are too often met with a kind of reflexive dismissal or despair in a "I feel like things are really bad right now, have never been this bad before, and thus can never improve" diatribe.
There's a pervasive sense in online discussions these days that if it's cynical, dark or depressing, it has to be the truth. It's like Occam's razor for today's modern doomer: the bleakest explanation must be the correct one. And I'm not saying that things are easy or that democracy is guaranteed, but I am saying that pessimism isn't inherently more realistic than optimism.
Cynicism sells in the 21st century.
There's a pervasive sense in online discussions these days that if it's cynical, dark or depressing, it has to be the truth. It's like Occam's razor for today's modern doomer: the bleakest explanation must be the correct one. And I'm not saying that things are easy or that democracy is guaranteed, but I am saying that pessimism isn't inherently more realistic than optimism.
Cynicism sells in the 21st century.
Part of the problem is the whole "In the long run, we're all dead" thing. If things are going to be bad for the next 30 years, that's most of the rest of my useful life. If my life leading up to this point was miserable and the rest of my life is going to be as bad or worse, then I'm not sure I care how things will be in 200 years.
Meh.
It's not really cynicism.
It's just that people today only care about the next 20 or 30 years. They don't really care if, over the course of the next 200 years, two nations can rebuild from annihilating each other in a nuclear exchange. The nuclear exchange is a lot more pressing concern for them.
It's not really cynicism.
It's just that people today only care about the next 20 or 30 years. They don't really care if, over the course of the next 200 years, two nations can rebuild from annihilating each other in a nuclear exchange. The nuclear exchange is a lot more pressing concern for them.
I'm at the age where 30 years may well be the rest of my life (even assuming a fairly normal old-age sort of death) and 50 almost certainly is, so while I do care about what happens after for my kids, they'll also be quite old by then, so "the whole rest of your life during which you're still significantly active, plus all of your kids' lives up to as late as late-middle-age, by which time they're firmly set on their life courses and family planning and such, will suck" is... pretty bad.
> rebuild from annihilating each other in a nuclear exchange. The nuclear exchange is a lot more pressing concern for them.
Maybe this was your intention or maybe not, but this is kinda what I'm talking about. It presupposes that there will be nuclear exchanges and annihilation in the first place, because, well, why wouldn't there be? Life is shit, tensions are high, and that's the grim dark end we all see coming anyway?
Maybe this was your intention or maybe not, but this is kinda what I'm talking about. It presupposes that there will be nuclear exchanges and annihilation in the first place, because, well, why wouldn't there be? Life is shit, tensions are high, and that's the grim dark end we all see coming anyway?
Peace and prosperity in 200yr won't help my retirement in 30.
A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.
Planting trees is categorically fraud, waste, and abuse under the current regime.
I love a low effort circle jerk as much as the next online commentor but let's be real here, nobody who's worried about stuff lower down the pyramid of needs can afford the luxury of donating resources to a hypothetical future.
Society hasn't earned me caring about it. If it wanted me to care then it shouldn't have spent decades kicking me around.
> but reading the replies here just confirms to me that cynicism, pessimism and doomerism are certainly the mood of the current zeitgeist.
Isn't that the human condition? Historically, it was no doubt an evolutionary advantage to always think that a lion is about to pounce, so to speak. That doesn't just go away. The instincts still need something to work with even after all the real threats are gone.
Isn't that the human condition? Historically, it was no doubt an evolutionary advantage to always think that a lion is about to pounce, so to speak. That doesn't just go away. The instincts still need something to work with even after all the real threats are gone.
> cynicism,
The cynicism comes from the fact that many people (including me) have decided to check out from what is going on in the world and instead focus on what we can control in our daily lives.
It also comes from the fact that in many countries the social contract is broken.
You are still expected to pay your taxes but the services provided are increasingly of bad quality such as schools,hospitals, judicial system and so on.
So much so in fact that it seems to me that this relationship that the people have with the state is becoming more and more one sided. Like in an abusive relationship of some sort.
Look at the number of people who don't bother to vote anymore because at the end of the day it does not make much difference to their lives.
There is profound sense of injustice in the world at the moment but it is being swept under the carpet.
The cynicism comes from the fact that many people (including me) have decided to check out from what is going on in the world and instead focus on what we can control in our daily lives.
It also comes from the fact that in many countries the social contract is broken.
You are still expected to pay your taxes but the services provided are increasingly of bad quality such as schools,hospitals, judicial system and so on.
So much so in fact that it seems to me that this relationship that the people have with the state is becoming more and more one sided. Like in an abusive relationship of some sort.
Look at the number of people who don't bother to vote anymore because at the end of the day it does not make much difference to their lives.
There is profound sense of injustice in the world at the moment but it is being swept under the carpet.
"Fine"? Did the history professor consider anything other than history or politics?
The way global warming and our general destruction of nature is going (not just species or climate but also e.g. depletion of groundwater in a lot of heavily populated areas), I'm not sure democracy will be our biggest concern in 200 years' time.
No, he did not consider things that have never happened before.
He can only extrapolate from events that already happened. Human made global warming is a first time, so difficult to say what will happen from a historical perspective.
He can only extrapolate from events that already happened. Human made global warming is a first time, so difficult to say what will happen from a historical perspective.
> Human made global warming is a first time
Human-made global warming appears to go back to the advent of agriculture, though, so for all intents and purposes it has been a constant throughout the history of which we speak.
Human-made global warming appears to go back to the advent of agriculture, though, so for all intents and purposes it has been a constant throughout the history of which we speak.
Ted was so right.
[deleted]
Given predicted decline i global population size, some of these effect will be partially offset by less pressure from the population.
Oh, coincidentally, that is just the time window of the technological singularity.. where we either ascend to a peace- & powerful interplanetary civilization - or accidentally eradicate ourselves out of a collective lack of wisdom and sense of connectedness. Let's play..
I think the "technological singularity" is just the rapture for people who listen to sam harris
Not to take anything away from this witty comment, but I think Harris is more on the doomer side?
Maybe that's what you meant after all.
Maybe that's what you meant after all.
You're quite right; I think the "rationalists" tend to be a little more cynical (or realistic, as most would probably put it).
Millenarianism is evergreen.
[deleted]
> It’ll be all fine on a 200 years perspective, democracy will continue to increase its footprint, people will lead better lives.
What could that be based on? Ask the people in Venezuela, South Africa for instance, things can definitely get much worse even for decently developed countries with democracy and a solid economic foundation.
Combine with the growth of religiosness in young people across multiple growing countries, and broad (sometimes related, sometimes not) anti-democracy trends, I really wouldn't be that optimistic.
What would make one think that e.g. the Coup Belt in Subsaharan Africa will some day get more democratic? The fundamentals aren't there - the populace is generally poor and poorly educated. Strongman rule over years/decades can erode the little civic society that existed, and then it's very very hard to get an effective democracy functioning.
What could that be based on? Ask the people in Venezuela, South Africa for instance, things can definitely get much worse even for decently developed countries with democracy and a solid economic foundation.
Combine with the growth of religiosness in young people across multiple growing countries, and broad (sometimes related, sometimes not) anti-democracy trends, I really wouldn't be that optimistic.
What would make one think that e.g. the Coup Belt in Subsaharan Africa will some day get more democratic? The fundamentals aren't there - the populace is generally poor and poorly educated. Strongman rule over years/decades can erode the little civic society that existed, and then it's very very hard to get an effective democracy functioning.
There is a problem with this though. It is the price paid in exchange for democracy. Take Syria for example. It took huge human loss to free itself from Assad, Iran and Russian influence. Is the price justified? Of course in the long run autocracies fail. The lifespan of the ruler is one duration we can associate (Putin is on the verge of death). But the damage can often be very significant and take generation to undo. Just to be clear, I was very much in favor of removing those murderers. I just wonder if there were ways to mitigate this (here, EU and US should have stepped in, which they failed to do. However, they are doing it in Ukraine, which is great)
> Take Syria for example. It took huge human loss to free itself from Assad, Iran and Russian influence.
And then it fell in the hands of radical islamists. Is this the outcome that everyone was hoping for?
And then it fell in the hands of radical islamists. Is this the outcome that everyone was hoping for?
I disagree with that assessment. It is currently led by someone widely popular in Syria. Ultimately, the people are free to elect whoever they choose. The point is it is unequivocal most of them rejected Iranian and Russian influence and a barbarous Assad regime. Of course rebuilding will take time, and there might be some extreme factions (religious or leftovers from the Assad regime). But freedom prevailed. Your response is that of a coward that would rather live as a slave under a foreign occupation, instead of rebelling at the cost of their own lives.
> I disagree with that assessment.
This is not an assessment. It's the truth. Jolani is a former al-Qaeda member whose organization is still considered a terrorist organization. The US even had a prize on his head.
> Your response is that of a coward that would rather live as a slave under a foreign occupation, instead of rebelling at the cost of their own lives.
You response to an opinion that is different than yours is to insult someone who is willing to engage with you. If you are not interested in debating, no point in commenting.
This is not an assessment. It's the truth. Jolani is a former al-Qaeda member whose organization is still considered a terrorist organization. The US even had a prize on his head.
> Your response is that of a coward that would rather live as a slave under a foreign occupation, instead of rebelling at the cost of their own lives.
You response to an opinion that is different than yours is to insult someone who is willing to engage with you. If you are not interested in debating, no point in commenting.
[deleted]
“democracy will continue to increase its footprint”
What was this based on?
What was this based on?
Extrapolation from what he knows about history.
Things looked very bleak right after the French revolution for example.
We see our history as a dot, because we live in it.
But people in the future will take a more long-term view and might say: oh this was a difficult phase in history.
Things looked very bleak right after the French revolution for example.
We see our history as a dot, because we live in it.
But people in the future will take a more long-term view and might say: oh this was a difficult phase in history.
I do not think we have enough historical evidence for such an extrapolation. Human societies have been getting more and more complex, necessitating more and more complex governance. We are at a point of crisis, where the electorate is supposed to decide through voting, and our elected politicians are supposed to decide through legislation, on topics that neither the electorate, nor the elected are able to fully understand. It is not clear to me that democracy will triumph.
Sure we do. Go read H.G. Wells "The World Set Free". It's pre WWII, covers these exact topics, and could have been written yesterday. When it was written none of the problems were new.
The book is a utopia, written in the hope that, with unlimited energy (and therefore, unlimited means of production), government upheaval would finally let us transition to a post-scarcity society.
Humanity has had the technology necessary to do that since the 1950s, but instead focused on things like using more fossil fuels, weaponizing food, spreading disease and ignorance, expanding poverty, etc. Both parties in the US have consistently supported all of the above for my entire life.
We're seeing an acceleration of those things under the current administration.
Hopefully, we'll get decent leadership soon. We're still a democracy.
The book is a utopia, written in the hope that, with unlimited energy (and therefore, unlimited means of production), government upheaval would finally let us transition to a post-scarcity society.
Humanity has had the technology necessary to do that since the 1950s, but instead focused on things like using more fossil fuels, weaponizing food, spreading disease and ignorance, expanding poverty, etc. Both parties in the US have consistently supported all of the above for my entire life.
We're seeing an acceleration of those things under the current administration.
Hopefully, we'll get decent leadership soon. We're still a democracy.
The things that people really want will always be scarce. Even lower energy prices or better political leaders can't change that reality.
That's a non sequitur. Just because human societies have been getting more and more complex doesn't necessarily mean we need more and more complex governance. We might be better off with radically less governance, and just accept the consequences that sometimes bad things will happen due to lack of governance.
I just don't agree with any of this.
This is a difficult time compared to what? The black plague? WW1?
This is the easiest time ever to be alive.
I would say on a 200 year time line though, the way the black plague broke the power of the Catholic Church, the internet has broke democracy.
The idea democracy is ascendant is pretty delusional IMO.
This professor is still living in the unipolar moment that has passed.
This is a difficult time compared to what? The black plague? WW1?
This is the easiest time ever to be alive.
I would say on a 200 year time line though, the way the black plague broke the power of the Catholic Church, the internet has broke democracy.
The idea democracy is ascendant is pretty delusional IMO.
This professor is still living in the unipolar moment that has passed.
> the way the black plague broke the power of the Catholic Church
I think it is more accurate to say it broke the power of the aristocracy by causing a labour shortage.
The black death happened in the 14th century, the reformation in the 16th
I think it is more accurate to say it broke the power of the aristocracy by causing a labour shortage.
The black death happened in the 14th century, the reformation in the 16th
The great news is we can break the internet if needed. It will be torn down and chopped up into moderated walled gardens, it's inevitable. Algorithmic rage bait and echo chambers are incompatible with a functioning society.
> It will be torn down and chopped up into moderated walled gardens, it's inevitable. Algorithmic rage bait and echo chambers are incompatible with a functioning society.
I've reckoned a free global Internet's incompatible with functioning democracy (or most other forms of government) for about a decade now.
I figure our "great firewall" will be in the form of cryptographically origin-attributed routing, and making proxying while stripping that info illegal in most circumstances. Won't cut it to zero, but will make mass anonymous propaganda campaigns a hell of a lot harder. The protocols are already under development, as I understand it.
I've reckoned a free global Internet's incompatible with functioning democracy (or most other forms of government) for about a decade now.
I figure our "great firewall" will be in the form of cryptographically origin-attributed routing, and making proxying while stripping that info illegal in most circumstances. Won't cut it to zero, but will make mass anonymous propaganda campaigns a hell of a lot harder. The protocols are already under development, as I understand it.
Definitely a great place to start!
Do you have any links to any material/info on this topic? I'm sure some folks have begun talking about protocols.
Do you have any links to any material/info on this topic? I'm sure some folks have begun talking about protocols.
BGP route origin validation is already partially deployed in the wild, I believe. I recall reading about BGP replacement protocols years back that were being developed to include even stronger route-signing. Once you have that kind of thing in place, you basically have everything you need for a decentralized, origin-focused great firewall, it's just a matter of activating it.
> I've reckoned a free global Internet's incompatible with functioning democracy (or most other forms of government) for about a decade now.
Alternatively, the internet enables "true" democracy and we're finding out that we don't really like it. There is probably a good reason why our formal "democracies" are more like semi-frequently refreshed dictatorships.
Alternatively, the internet enables "true" democracy and we're finding out that we don't really like it. There is probably a good reason why our formal "democracies" are more like semi-frequently refreshed dictatorships.
Political scientists just call what we have democracy, same as everyone else. It's a common use of the term by experts in the field.
I don't really see how the Internet has changed how our voting works or the structure of our government, anyway.
I don't really see how the Internet has changed how our voting works or the structure of our government, anyway.
> It's a common use of the term by experts in the field.
Sure, but it's clearly something different than people assembling in the town square to flesh out their issues with each other, as democracy was originally seen. Semantic arguments are dumb.
In theory, which is why the name is as such, it need not be any different as the elected employees are only supposed to take the message from their local town square to a central meeting place where, with all the other town square results, things are compiled – to be tarred and feathered if the message changes in transit – but in practice nobody shows up in the local town square and leaves it upon the employee to make guesses about their wishes, thus becoming dictators out of necessity.
> I don't really see how the Internet has changed how our voting works or the structure of our government, anyway.
Why would it? As before, it has reminded us of why we resorted to picking (and maybe not even that) employees to tell us what to do in the first place.
Sure, but it's clearly something different than people assembling in the town square to flesh out their issues with each other, as democracy was originally seen. Semantic arguments are dumb.
In theory, which is why the name is as such, it need not be any different as the elected employees are only supposed to take the message from their local town square to a central meeting place where, with all the other town square results, things are compiled – to be tarred and feathered if the message changes in transit – but in practice nobody shows up in the local town square and leaves it upon the employee to make guesses about their wishes, thus becoming dictators out of necessity.
> I don't really see how the Internet has changed how our voting works or the structure of our government, anyway.
Why would it? As before, it has reminded us of why we resorted to picking (and maybe not even that) employees to tell us what to do in the first place.
I'm optimistic, if you release enough bots into that ecosystem it is unlikely to survive. It is one of those things where effort is rewarded but also a condition for the game to function. YouTube is already full of videos that seem to have a single line prompt. Those can't generate enough rage to sustain the formula.
The world gets both better and worse.
It doesn't have to get worse. Conversely, it doesn't have to get better, either, but at this point, we've got a lot of history that shows us what has and hasn't worked. I think the measure of how people are doing worth focusing on is how much of their potential they've fulfilled. I'm not really interested in how generally well off someone is today compared to someone in some random point in history because there are too many outliers on both ends of that one.
It doesn't have to get worse. Conversely, it doesn't have to get better, either, but at this point, we've got a lot of history that shows us what has and hasn't worked. I think the measure of how people are doing worth focusing on is how much of their potential they've fulfilled. I'm not really interested in how generally well off someone is today compared to someone in some random point in history because there are too many outliers on both ends of that one.
Well, WWIII or some other form of nuclear strikes may change that perception.
I agree its dangerous to be overly positive and naive, we humans are still just a notch above beasts, are easy to manipulate (always via negative emotions like greed, envy, inferiority complex and so on), but things can absolutely go to utter shit, we have more capabilities than ever to spread it across globe. Not just nuclear - drone warfare is absolutely maddening. Imagine 10 millions of them, each with their target, each going with absolute precision and on its own - thats what current armies aim for and within a decade they will get it.
What is (and always was) is that very few holds most of the decision power. Get one mental unstable vicious person there and it falls down like house of cards. Our current high tech civilization is pretty fragile to disruption. Sure, we can always revert to stone age, some would even be glad, but I strongly prefer not to.
I agree its dangerous to be overly positive and naive, we humans are still just a notch above beasts, are easy to manipulate (always via negative emotions like greed, envy, inferiority complex and so on), but things can absolutely go to utter shit, we have more capabilities than ever to spread it across globe. Not just nuclear - drone warfare is absolutely maddening. Imagine 10 millions of them, each with their target, each going with absolute precision and on its own - thats what current armies aim for and within a decade they will get it.
What is (and always was) is that very few holds most of the decision power. Get one mental unstable vicious person there and it falls down like house of cards. Our current high tech civilization is pretty fragile to disruption. Sure, we can always revert to stone age, some would even be glad, but I strongly prefer not to.
> cannot cope with things going back to normal.
Interesting take on "normal" by Canadian physician Gabor Maté.
https://drgabormate.com/book/the-myth-of-normal/
Interesting take on "normal" by Canadian physician Gabor Maté.
https://drgabormate.com/book/the-myth-of-normal/
>and cannot cope with things going back to normal.
how do we define "normal" for society?
how do we define "normal" for society?
I think that sort of analysis ignores the things that we gave up to get our golden age; such that a return to normal would actually mean ending up worse than we were before in many ways. We accepted Capitalism's race to the bottom in exchange for the benefits of consumerism. Now we are being asked to give up consumerism but there's no indication that we will also go back to a time before everything was cheaply made plastic crap.
> frightened into rationality
An oxymoron if I ever heard one. To become rational means letting go of fears (to a large extent). I fear that one reason we fail to act is that we are guided by fear. Fear makes us focus on the wrong things. And I fear that in a civilized society fear becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Fear makes us obsess about the problem and how to avoid it in the very narrow and short term. It doesn't make us very good at long term planning and execution. It's an instinct that is evolved for animals that want to avoid predators, not for civilization builders.
Building a civilization requires vision, big plans and the feeling that we can afford bold ideas. We need to take risks. But how can we take more risks when we're constantly afraid of the future? How can we build a better future when all we do all day is imagining the worst possible future? If our minds are constantly occupied by dystopia we can't plan for anything else. So that's what we build.
An oxymoron if I ever heard one. To become rational means letting go of fears (to a large extent). I fear that one reason we fail to act is that we are guided by fear. Fear makes us focus on the wrong things. And I fear that in a civilized society fear becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Fear makes us obsess about the problem and how to avoid it in the very narrow and short term. It doesn't make us very good at long term planning and execution. It's an instinct that is evolved for animals that want to avoid predators, not for civilization builders.
Building a civilization requires vision, big plans and the feeling that we can afford bold ideas. We need to take risks. But how can we take more risks when we're constantly afraid of the future? How can we build a better future when all we do all day is imagining the worst possible future? If our minds are constantly occupied by dystopia we can't plan for anything else. So that's what we build.
I'd argue we evolved to think rationally in order to specifically advance our instinctive drives, rather than the "Triume brain" view of the neocortex and lizard brain fighting for dominance. Immediate and extreme danger enforces a realistic and calculating view of reality, when otherwise people tend to avoid thinking about or dealing with a danger.
Courage is the ability to choose an alternative besides first choice of fear. But it isn't necessarily rational either, more likely a different instinctive motivation winning out. A completely emotionless person, meanwhile, would probably be completely nonfunctional.
Courage is the ability to choose an alternative besides first choice of fear. But it isn't necessarily rational either, more likely a different instinctive motivation winning out. A completely emotionless person, meanwhile, would probably be completely nonfunctional.
I'm in the same camp, and I go step further and avoid places where fear is the main tune.
As I see it, Optimism is usually unrational but drives change and Fear kills optimism.
Trust is not purely rational its emotional. Fear kills trust, making you more rational in the sense that you assume other players are rationally adversarial.
Trust is not purely rational its emotional. Fear kills trust, making you more rational in the sense that you assume other players are rationally adversarial.
As I see it, pessimism is as "unrational" as optimism. There's a big span of uncertainty about the future that is filled by our intentions and beliefs. If we commit to a pessimistic worldview we are likely to make some decisions that lead towards such a world. If we commit to an optimistic worldview we are likely to get exploited by bad actors.
We have to be able to juggle both realities. That is rational.
(But I think we are essentially saying the same thing here.)
We have to be able to juggle both realities. That is rational.
(But I think we are essentially saying the same thing here.)
I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Excellent book on the theme using Zambia in the 70s as a case study:
Expectations of Modernity explores the social and cultural responses to a prolonged period of sharp economic decline. [1]
"From now on, it's just down, down, down..." sighed one informant (p. 13). As Ferguson argues, "Zambia's recent crisis is not only an economic crisis but a crisis of meaning, in which the way people are able to understand their experi- ence and imbue it with significance and dignity has (for many) been dramatical- ly eroded" (p.15). [2]
Not that long afterwards there was a revolution.
[1] https://www.ucpress.edu/books/expectations-of-modernity/pape...
[2] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/002190960303800...
Expectations of Modernity explores the social and cultural responses to a prolonged period of sharp economic decline. [1]
"From now on, it's just down, down, down..." sighed one informant (p. 13). As Ferguson argues, "Zambia's recent crisis is not only an economic crisis but a crisis of meaning, in which the way people are able to understand their experi- ence and imbue it with significance and dignity has (for many) been dramatical- ly eroded" (p.15). [2]
Not that long afterwards there was a revolution.
[1] https://www.ucpress.edu/books/expectations-of-modernity/pape...
[2] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/002190960303800...
The key argument I read here is that, due to specialisation, academic
philosophy is currently unfit to apprehend today's problems. It is no
longer capable of incorporating politics, and politics itself has
escaped rational discourse. Historians are enjoying some new
limelight, and popular value-revisionism is in the air, at least if
Lucy Worsley's BBC series is anything to go by.
The question is: "What is progress, really?"
The question is: "What is progress, really?"
Nice article, but framing it around the doomsday clock felt like the author just needed to express his angst on whatever page was in front of him
"Hegel, installed from above, by the powers that be, as the certified Great Philosopher, was a flat-headed, insipid, nauseating, illiterate charlatan, who reached the pinnacle of audacity in scribbling together and dishing up the craziest mystifying nonsense. This nonsense has been noisily proclaimed as immortal wisdom by mercenary followers and readily accepted as such by all fools, who thus joined into as perfect a chorus of admiration as had ever been heard before. The extensive field of spiritual influence with which Hegel was furnished by those in power has enabled him to achieve the intellectual corruption of a whole generation."
-- Schopenhauer
-- Schopenhauer
"Moreover, when this non-conceptual, substantial knowledge professes to have sunk the idiosyncrasy of the self in essential being, and to philosophize in a true and holy manner, it hides the truth from itself: by spurning measure and definition, instead of being devoted to God, it merely gives free rein both to the contingency of the content within it, and to its own caprice. Such minds, when they give themselves up to the uncontrolled ferment of the divine substance, imagine that, by drawing a veil over self consciousness and surrendering understanding they become the beloved of God to whom He gives wisdom in sleep; and hence what they in fact receive, and bring to birth in their sleep, is nothing but dreams."
-- Hegel
-- Hegel
Schopenhauer! He's one of the guys in the quotes of the big time jerks article!
https://medium.com/luminasticity/quotes-of-the-big-time-jerk...
https://medium.com/luminasticity/quotes-of-the-big-time-jerk...
“May Hegel's philosophy of absolute nonsense - three-fourths cash and one-fourth crazy fancies - continue to pass for unfathomable wisdom without anyone suggesting as an appropriate motto for his writings Shakespeare's words: "Such stuff as madmen tongue and brain not," or, as an emblematical vignette, the cuttle-fish with its ink-bag, creating a cloud of darkness around it to prevent people from seeing what it is, with the device: mea caligine tutus. - May each day bring us, as hitherto, new systems adapted for University purposes, entirely made up of words and phrases and in a learned jargon besides, which allows people to talk whole days without saying anything; and may these delights never be disturbed by the Arabian proverb: "I hear the clappering of the mill, but I see no flour." - For all this is in accordance with the age and must have its course.”
― Arthur Schopenhauer, Essays of Schopenhauer
― Arthur Schopenhauer, Essays of Schopenhauer
Good article. The point about contemporary philosophers not having grand theories is something that comes up frequently in philosophy spaces (i.e., /r/academicphilosophy or https://dailynous.com).
The problem is that the academic system is really not designed to select such individuals, instead optimizing for specialized publications, pedigree, etc. The average philosopher has zero incentive for constructing grand theories and indeed is typically ridiculed for even attempting to do so.
And so instead the best "public intellectuals" the world of philosophy can offer are either obsessively focused on particular issues rather than the field as a whole, (e.g., Peter Singer) or are entirely philosophically-uneducated charlatans who want to sell books and make money, not discover truth (e.g. Sam Harris, talking heads on Twitter, Substack, etc.) that unfortunately get an audience. The closest we get are probably Charles Taylor (big scope, but unfortunately too verbose and abstruse) or Zizek (too niche and far into his own entertainment career.)
I'm not sure what the solution is, but it probably involves a brilliant (and credentialed) philosopher that is also savvy with YouTube and willing to disregard the academic philosophy social milieu.
The problem is that the academic system is really not designed to select such individuals, instead optimizing for specialized publications, pedigree, etc. The average philosopher has zero incentive for constructing grand theories and indeed is typically ridiculed for even attempting to do so.
And so instead the best "public intellectuals" the world of philosophy can offer are either obsessively focused on particular issues rather than the field as a whole, (e.g., Peter Singer) or are entirely philosophically-uneducated charlatans who want to sell books and make money, not discover truth (e.g. Sam Harris, talking heads on Twitter, Substack, etc.) that unfortunately get an audience. The closest we get are probably Charles Taylor (big scope, but unfortunately too verbose and abstruse) or Zizek (too niche and far into his own entertainment career.)
I'm not sure what the solution is, but it probably involves a brilliant (and credentialed) philosopher that is also savvy with YouTube and willing to disregard the academic philosophy social milieu.
The problem is not limited to philosophy. All of academia is
broken this way. Sadly, we think the only alternative is "industry",
an equally broken set of incentives. That limits fronts of human
progress to two types. We either get committee-driven institutional
science leveraging huge resources, supercomputers, particle
accelerators - blighted by cutthroat competition, opaque "publishing"
and fraud - or radical populist individuals and small unaffiliated
groups of thinkers able to operate without material resources. The
Goldilocks zone of quiet, contemplative science, of whimsical,
"high-risk" enquiry reminiscent of the Enlightenment, is gone in the
21st century.
Agreed and that is a really good, but simple, point that I didn't realize as clearly before: there is no real alternative to the academia vs. industry dichotomy. What is needed might be a third option that allows for exploration without the pressures of profits or publications.
Common to all "3rd options" seems to be their (read, immediate) implicit/tacit "dual-use" assumption:
Egs:
DARPA: every new findout is an edge for beating the soviets
Patronage: sooner or later, but most likely sooner, you come up with something your funder can brag about or profit from or simply feel good about
(Detour back to second options.
Academia: professors must bring in the tuition bacon at the very least
Industry: academics can immediately reverse engineer your artifacts or even patents, if they happen not to be mere positioning.)
Bell labs: if you squint hard enough, everything is related to infocomm infra
Sorry, had to try to beat that "one day everything will see the sun!" clause
https://archive.today/latest/www.nytimes.com/1985/01/06/nyre...
Egs:
DARPA: every new findout is an edge for beating the soviets
Patronage: sooner or later, but most likely sooner, you come up with something your funder can brag about or profit from or simply feel good about
(Detour back to second options.
Academia: professors must bring in the tuition bacon at the very least
Industry: academics can immediately reverse engineer your artifacts or even patents, if they happen not to be mere positioning.)
Bell labs: if you squint hard enough, everything is related to infocomm infra
Sorry, had to try to beat that "one day everything will see the sun!" clause
https://archive.today/latest/www.nytimes.com/1985/01/06/nyre...
The traditional 3rd option was the patronage by a rich benefactor. The modern version is patreon. It's imperfect but seems to work pretty well for some.
Patreon is still dependent on the creator caring about what their audience wants, what the market wants, etc. This is a distinctly "populist" approach, which does have its downsides: specifically if there is important work that doesn't have a wide audience, or takes years to get any results.
Your third option sounds suspiciously similar to golden-age DARPA, which had been created in response to the launch of Sputnik in 1957?
The kicker is it's not really a dichotomy either. Academia and
industry have gotten closer together, colluding to decide what
research is funded and what is silently dropped, what is taught and
what never makes it onto the curriculum. This is even framed as a
good thing by governments who talk of academic-industry "alignment"
and how the academy "serves" industry. It's a way to get public money
for training that is a subsidy to commercial interests.
"Objective" higher education and research designed to shape industry by genuine innovation is as rare as rocking-horse shit - mainly in niche areas of physics or biotech that don't have any commercial application yet.. but might one day.
"Objective" higher education and research designed to shape industry by genuine innovation is as rare as rocking-horse shit - mainly in niche areas of physics or biotech that don't have any commercial application yet.. but might one day.
I won't call it a grand theory but I like this solution to the puzzle.
https://gaby.wordpress.com/2025/03/20/wilde-democracy/
https://gaby.wordpress.com/2025/03/20/wilde-democracy/
I would like the idea of voting diplomas, but ensuring that such gate-keeping can evolve over time without being gamed to slowly strip a larger & larger fraction of the population of representation over time is a really tricky problem.
Thus, I think that the freedom to vote & to hold office should be enshrined in the constitution for everyone, regardless of criminal history or citizenship.
Thus, I think that the freedom to vote & to hold office should be enshrined in the constitution for everyone, regardless of criminal history or citizenship.
It would take a similarly isolated gov department to rate and set the difficulty. That one should probably not have a diploma.
That the system will be gamed is no real concern as that battle will continue forever. This version is at least capable of plugging the hole when enough people notice it.
The freedom to hold the generic office seems fine. For a specialized department some relevant experience and diplomas isn't a lot to ask. If unskilled employees could do a great job in any occupation we would see this in the private sector. I think it can just be left for judgement by the voter.
That the system will be gamed is no real concern as that battle will continue forever. This version is at least capable of plugging the hole when enough people notice it.
The freedom to hold the generic office seems fine. For a specialized department some relevant experience and diplomas isn't a lot to ask. If unskilled employees could do a great job in any occupation we would see this in the private sector. I think it can just be left for judgement by the voter.
> The average philosopher has zero incentive for constructing grand theories
I mean, considering Hegel's grand theory indirectly lead to the deaths of tens of millions in the 20th century, maybe that's not a bad thing?
I mean, considering Hegel's grand theory indirectly lead to the deaths of tens of millions in the 20th century, maybe that's not a bad thing?
> China, Russia and the United States are all spending huge sums to expand or modernise their nuclear arsenals, adding to the ever-present danger of nuclear war through mistake or miscalculation.
An annoyance of mine is that this person is from Europe and seems to ignore that the UK[0] and France[1] are modernizing and, at least in the UK's case, expanding their stockpiles.
There seems to be a continental myopia towards the European role in adding to the problems of the world.
EDIT: You can downvote me all you want, it doesn't make me wrong.
[0]https://fas.org/publication/delays-deferment-and-continuous-...
[1]https://thebulletin.org/premium/2023-07/nuclear-notebook-fre...
An annoyance of mine is that this person is from Europe and seems to ignore that the UK[0] and France[1] are modernizing and, at least in the UK's case, expanding their stockpiles.
There seems to be a continental myopia towards the European role in adding to the problems of the world.
EDIT: You can downvote me all you want, it doesn't make me wrong.
[0]https://fas.org/publication/delays-deferment-and-continuous-...
[1]https://thebulletin.org/premium/2023-07/nuclear-notebook-fre...
[deleted]
It’s a story of the unfolding of human progress told by an idiot, full of sound and fury that signifies nothing if you pay attention to what the idiot thinks is important.
All a bunch of narcissists who's whole MO is showing off how smart they can be with words, with net negative to society.
Literally if all the morally righteous smartarses from Marx to Hegel to whichever modern university-produced cretins had done the world a favour and died nice and young the world would be a far better place.
Literally if all the morally righteous smartarses from Marx to Hegel to whichever modern university-produced cretins had done the world a favour and died nice and young the world would be a far better place.
resurrected(6)
DeathArrow(12)
History stopped being useful and became a meaningless recreation when it moved away from the fact that facts are absolute, not relative to the observer.
You're relying on something that's not a fact, to make this post.
The fact that people disagree with something does not make it false.
Find me an absolute point, and I'll move the world.
What strikes me is how much of these current geopolitical events are driven by singular individuals whose current inclinations were shaped by their very arbitrary past encounters.
For example, if you take the current US administration's hostility towards Europe. That might just be the result of the Vice President being at Yale and encountering a few snobby children of European old money, and they might have been a bit too mean to him, and that might be the sole reason he has so much antipathy towards the whole of Europe.
Things get better, sometimes they get worse. Generally people are better off materially than they have ever been, but people do not change all that much morally.